Help & Hope for Women in Destructive Marriages with Leslie Vernick (SEEN SERIES)

We are picking up right where we left off last week with Leslie Vernick.  If you haven’t listened to that episode yet, you can find it here.  

What if forgiveness didn’t mean stepping back into harm, and submission didn’t mean surrendering your safety? We tackle the most misunderstood truths about abusive dynamics, offering a clear path toward safety, integrity, and hope. On today’s episode, we walk through four essential questions to identify patterns of abuse, how escalation works when there are no consequences, and why boundaries are acts of love, not defiance.

Watch this Episode on YouTube

Click here for show notes and to connect with Leslie Vernick.

Chapters

• 0:00 Opening Challenge: Trust After Harm
• 0:33 Welcome And Episode Setup
• 1:29 What Makes A Relationship Unsafe
• 2:07 Four Questions To Spot Patterns
• 3:34 Escalation, Consequences, And Safety
• 5:00 Forgiveness Versus Consequences
• 7:44 Permanent Damage And Trust Loss
• 9:45 Standing Firm Amid Disapproval
• 11:44 Community And Support For Women
• 13:20 Resources: Groups, Website, Podcast
• 15:05 The Power Of Shared Lament
• 16:37 Loneliness, Isolation, And Church Gaps
• 18:09 A Guiding Scripture For Truth-Telling
• 20:03 Love, Boundaries, And Enabling
• 21:13 Rethinking Submission And Headship
• 24:05 Mutuality, Authority, And Context
• 26:04 Identity As God’s Daughters
• 27:28 A Word To Women In Harm
• 29:07 Courage That Wakes Abusers Up

Transcript

Leslie: 0:00

If a church had a treasurer that embezzled money and that church treasurer was repentant and even paid back a hundred thousand dollars that they embezzled, would they hire them back? No, not in a million years. Not in a million years. So why is it that we expect wives to take someone back into their bedroom, their bank account, and their body when that person has been so vile toward them? They might not be able to, and let's not shame her for saying no thanks.

Teresa: 0:33

Hi, friend. If you've ever wondered how God's word connects with the messy, broken parts of your story, you're in the right place. Welcome to Beauty in the Brokenness, where we have honest conversations about the Bible, our real life struggles, and the hope God brings for healing. I'm your host, Teresa Whiting, an author, Bible teacher, and trauma-informed life coach, but mostly a friend and fellow struggler. No matter who you are or where you've been, I'm inviting you to encounter the God who is still creating beauty right in the midst of your brokenness. Well, welcome back, friends. We are picking up right where we left off last week with Leslie Varnick. If you haven't listened to that episode yet, you have got to go back and listen because it was fabulous. So we're just gonna jump right back into that conversation. We talked a little bit about abusive marriages, or what are some of the main categories, if you will, that that you would say to a woman, okay, you're in an unhealthy relationship. And I know we talked about the markers, but I know there's things, there's physical abuse, there's emotional abuse, there's verbal, you know, men that are addicted to pornography and all these different things are are there are there things that you would say, you know what, this is this is an unsafe situation for you. And this is a situation where, yeah, you can probably work through that.

Leslie: 2:03

Well, I think there's safety at different levels, right? So there's physical safety. So there's ever been a history of physical abuse. Understand that history shows, studies show that it escalates in frequency and in intensity over time. So, four questions that I think would be helpful for any woman to ask herself is whatever she would name abuse, whether it's verbal abuse, financial abuse, sexual abuse, uh, spiritual abuse, whatever. When was the first time this happened? When was the first time this happened? So she's been married 20 years and she says, Well, it never happened until last week. Well, then that tells you something. Like, what's going on with him recently that things are changing, right? That's a very different answer than it's happened on my honeymoon. He changed into a different person, you know. So when was the first time? Then when was the last time? So the first time was on my honeymoon, last time he never did again. That was it. Okay, well, then that's good news, right? So we're just kind of looking for a pattern here. So when was the first time you felt that this was happening? Whatever this is. All right. When was the last time? Then the second, the third question is what's a typical time? What's a typical time where you feel this feeling of disrespect or diminishing or squashing or fear? What you know, whatever that feeling is, what is it controlled to see? What when was what's a typical time of that? And then the fourth question is what's the worst time? And when you look at that pattern, I think you get a clearer picture of what's really going on, right? And so sometimes you might. So I worked with a woman who everybody thought her husband was an abuser. And when we asked her those questions, the first time was last week. It was the only time, and he took a medication error and he was having a psychotic episode. And he did a lot of damage. He stabbed her in the middle of the night. She could have died. So it was just a very lethal thing. But it wasn't that he was an abusive husband. Right. And so I think it's really important for us to look at those patterns. But it might not be so lethal, but you can die from a thousand paper cuts or a thousand beastings, right? So, what was the last time? What was the first time? What was a typical time? What's the worst time? Gives you an idea. Is things getting worse? Are things getting more dangerous? Are our finances becoming more depleted? Is his spiritual abuse becoming more weaponized? Is he um, you know, sexually more acting out and more causing me to be at risk for sexually transmitted diseases? Is the physical abuse the first time he just held me down? The last time he held a gun to my head. All right. Those are very scary patterns that you have to look at because you can see that his control over you and his behaviors are escalating. And they often do, especially when there's no consequences.

Teresa: 4:53

Right. So how do you, how do you, and I I kind of know your answer, but I want to, I want the listeners to know your answer. How do you hold the biblical teaching of forgiveness and appropriate consequences at the same time? Because we need both. So how do you, how would you help a woman to say, yeah, you can forgive your husband and these are the consequences?

Leslie: 5:17

Yeah, I think consequences are good teachers. The Bible tells us what we sow, we reap. So if I sow financial irresponsibility and I reap a blessing from that, well, then I won't even change that behavior. So repentance comes from often the consequences of realizing how stupid you were. Um, but sometimes you don't even see that if you don't see the consequences. If I didn't see the consequences of my abuse of my son's elbow and taking him to the emergency room and seeing him cry and seeing him be afraid of me, if I didn't notice those consequences, I wouldn't have nearly been as motivated to change my behaviors, right? And so when we shield someone from the consequences, thinking that that's mercy or love, that's not accurate. It's actually more kind to let someone see the consequences. So if you like I remember when I was in college, I worked with handicapped students. I was an RA, a resident advisor on the dorm, and we had a floor of handicapped students. And I had a woman who lived next to me in the dorm who was paralyzed from the waist down on a horseback riding accident. And she so she couldn't feel her feet, and her, and so she was shaving her legs. This is when we had dorms where you had communal bathrooms. So she's shaving her legs and she's sitting in her wheelchair, and her feet are in the in the sink, and she's shaving her legs, and I'm brushing my teeth in the sink next to her, and I'm looking at her feet full of blisters because she didn't turn on the cold water, she didn't feel the heat. Look at the consequences of her not noticing far more damage than if she had noticed. She wouldn't have experienced those consequences. So, as we as wives, if we enable sin, the consequences get worse. And so it's a kindness to say, hey, if this continues to happen, I won't continue to live this way. That might be a consequence. You can't put a punishment on your husband, but you can have some boundaries. This is what I will do. So, for example, if you drive, if you if you have too much alcohol tonight at the party, I'm gonna call an Uber driver home for me. Because I've been at this rodeo before and I'm not willing to drive home with you terrorized. If you don't let me drive, which I'm happy to do, then I'm gonna call an Uber. So those are consequences of his choices to act out and not control himself. I'm not gonna put myself in harm's way. That's a loving thing to do. That's not a mean thing to do. It's a loving for you, it's loving for him. And I think also it's really important to understand that some consequences are permanent. I have a friend who is driving her car, and I'm sure you can relate to this. She was putting her lipstick on as she was driving her car, and she hit a mom on a bicycle and killed her. And my friend was deeply repentant. Truly. And God didn't bring that woman back to life. And I think sometimes as a church, we are living in a fantasy land that someone can do deep damage to a marriage, and they can say sorry, and somehow trust and safety is automatically there. And sometimes when you've had a history of lying and cheating and abusing and disrespecting and dishonoring, and all of a sudden you have a come to Jesus moment, the damage is done to the relationship, the marriage is dead. And although a wife may in time forgive her husband, she may never trust him again. And that might be a good thing. I mean, I think Teresa, if we if we look at it from a church perspective, because maybe some church pastors are listening, if a church had a treasurer that embezzled money, and that church treasurer was repentant and even paid back a hundred thousand dollars that they embezzled, would they hire them back? No, not in a million years, not in a million years. So why is it that we expect wives to take someone back into their bedroom, their bank account, and their body when that person has been so vile toward them? They might not be able to. And let's not shame her for saying no thanks.

Teresa: 9:32

Yes, yes. We were talking a little bit before um, before we pressed record about that sometimes you have to make a decision and not everybody's gonna approve of that decision. And can you talk a little bit about that? Because these things you're talking about, they take a lot of courage, a lot of bravery, and they may even take standing up to people that you respect and love. What how would you encourage that woman who knows she's gonna get pushback from people that are really important to her?

Leslie: 10:03

Yeah. This is a hard thing. And I think, you know, the Bible tells us that the fear of man is a snare. And when again, when we I like people to like me. Nobody likes, you know, I like people to like me. It's not like I don't care, but I don't care enough that I would compromise my values or my safety or who I am just to make you happy. And I think that Jesus warns us against that. And so there are going to be people who disagree with us. Even Jesus' disciples disagreed with him. They didn't think he should go to the cross. Peter cut off the soldier's ear. And when the woman was pouring all that expensive perfume on him, they were all critical. Like she should be that to stop her from doing that. This is money that could be used to feed the poor. And they were right. And yet she was right too. And Jesus said, let her be. And so one of the marks of maturity, and I would just encourage women, is that you can stand with your decision even in the face of disapproval. When you know that you're making the right decision for yourself, for your children, for your body, for your family. Um, not everybody's gonna agree. Not everybody agreed with Jesus, not everybody agrees with other people. And I think it's particularly hard for women because we're taught in the church that we have to let the men decide and we have to let leadership make our decisions. But nowhere in the scriptures does it say that, that we're responsible for our life. Above all else, guard your heart for this wellspring of life. And when you allow other people to control you instead of the love of Christ and God to control you, then you're bowing into the wrong source. And so that's work to do. And the way I find that women can do that best is with other women who are doing that work. Because if you have support for standing up for yourself, if you have support for saying no and you see other women doing it and dealing with the kickback from their parents or from their pastor, um, and they can support you in your decision, then it's easier to walk that road. When you're doing it all by yourself, it's a whole lot harder.

Teresa: 12:02

Well, while we're talking about that, I know that your ministry has a way of supporting women. Can you talk a little bit about um your coaching groups and some of the things that your ministry offers?

Leslie: 12:14

Yeah, so we have a um, so a couple of things. One one way that people get support totally free is our Instagram. They can go on Instagram, they see a lot of support there. They can go on um my blog every week. We write a answer a question from there's a lot of support there. And that's just free stuff that they can do. We also have a support group called Conquer for Christian women in destructive marriages, and that opens twice a year. Um, and we just had 800 women from all over the world join. Um, we just had our celebration party this morning. And it was just so neat to see them see that I'm not alone. Like 800 women are in the Zoom call and they're like, oh my gosh, from all over the world, Christian women in destructive marriages. Oh my gosh, I'm not alone. And so as they begin this journey of starting to get healthier and stronger, they don't have to walk it all by themselves. Even if other people from their community is are disapproving of their newfound strength, they're finding lots of approval and Bible support to go with what they're journeying on. And so that can be really helpful and important for them. And then we also have more personal, you know, in-depth coaching groups as well. And those are all on our website that people can join.

Teresa: 13:18

Yes. And I'll have links to all of those places. And you didn't mention also you have a podcast. I do.

Leslie: 13:24

We have a podcast called Relationship Truth Unfiltered. And it's been fun to really unpack some of these lies that we have kind of believed so long in our lives. That, you know, what does it take to really have a healthy relationship? What does it take to have a good friendship with another woman, a good relationship with someone? And partly it takes being able to be yourself. And if you have to be someone they want you to be versus being you, that isn't a healthy relationship. It might be ministry, but it's not a healthy relationship.

Teresa: 13:59

Yeah, I've I've enjoyed your podcast and I've sent it along to several people. Um, one of the things you mentioned about being in a support group or being part of the community is the opening of our eyes to say, I'm not alone. Um, we recently did an event called the Graced Gathering, and one of the sessions was on Lament, and we had created this beautiful wall, and we asked women to write their laments and to kind of clip them on the wall. I didn't realize how powerful that was going to be because that was one of the most meaningful things for the women. They went to that wall and they they saw all these different laments, all of all the women, and and that's exactly what they said. They said, I'm not alone. And even if it wasn't the same thing they wrote down, there was this realization of like, wow, my sisters in this room are struggling with similar things or completely different things, but just as painful. And there's there's like this support in a community like that where there's honesty and vulnerability and the ability to say, I am not alone in this. And it that is such a beautiful and important part of healing is coming together and realizing you've got people that have your back and that have an understanding of what you've been through. So absolutely.

Leslie: 15:25

And sadly, I don't think the churches are offering that as much anymore. I think that, you know, we're in mega churches, we're big, we don't know anybody, we're watching it on TV, we're not really connected. Since COVID, people are checked out and suspicious and all of the above. And I think with all of the, again, the intolerance of conversation in our culture, we can't even talk about things anymore. We can't argue respectfully about different ideas and different thoughts and different values. And so we just live in this isolated world where we can't really check out what we're thinking and what we're feeling in an honest, vulnerable way without being criticized or clobbered. Um, and so we don't. And so we do feel very alone and very isolated and sometimes very crazy.

Teresa: 16:13

Yes. Yes. And I think I've heard loneliness is like the new pandemic. Yeah. Um, so Leslie, is there a scripture passage or a particular verse that has guided your ministry or that has kind of lit a fire under you for this ministry?

Leslie: 16:30

You know, when I graduated from college and I decided to, you know, go into being a counselor, Jeremiah 6.14 came to me and he was talking about the leaders of Israel. And he said, You heal the wounds of my people superficially by saying peace, peace when there is no peace. And that's been my my guiding light that I do not want to say, oh, everything is fine when everything is not fine. I want to be the truth teller because the truth sets us free, even if it's ugly truth, even if it's, you know, if if you really have cancer, it's best you know it. It's not kinder to say you have bronchitis and make you think things are fine when they're not fine. And I think we have watered down our language, we have softened reality so that relationship wounds are not healed in the way that they need to be healed and not treated in the way they need to be treated. And so that's been my guiding verse.

Teresa: 17:34

I love that. I love that you want to be the truth teller. And you've you've repeated a few times that it's not kind, it's actually not loving to allow somebody to be abusive, to allow somebody to be, you know, unhealthy. And I I think I recently had a friend um say that love is doing what is in the best interest of the other person. Yeah. And so if somebody is has foul behavior, it's not in their best interest to allow that to continue. That's not loving. Yeah. Lisa Turker says it best.

Leslie: 18:10

She said, it is not loving to sacrifice the best of who you are to enable the worst in him. That's powerful. Like, why would you do that? That's insanity. Wow. That is a very powerful statement. Right. It's not laying down your life. You lay your life down if you can actually do good. Not to enable someone to continue to harm themselves, others. You wouldn't give up your retirement account to let your husband or your child buy drugs. Why would you give up your sanity to allow your husband to continue to gaslight you?

Teresa: 18:50

Yes. Yes. I I have come up through a very conservative church, a Bible-based, very tight to the scriptures. Um, and I I love the churches that we have been a part of, and I um stand beside and behind them. And one of the things I have heard over and over is the importance of a wife submitting to her husband. And so my my question is just kind of what does submission actually look like? What does that mean when it says wives submit to your husbands? And what does it not mean? So submission is always a choice, right?

Leslie: 19:30

It's not something someone else makes you do. If someone makes you submit, it's not called submission biblically, it's called coercion, it's called oppression, and God hates that. Um, so we have to get really clear. And the Bible doesn't say submission is just for women or for wives. In Ephesians, we're to submit to one another, we're to submit to God, we're to submit to the authorities who are, you know, over us. And so in it, male and female are to do that. So, what is submission? I think submission is a wonderful discipline that teaches us that we don't have to have our way all the time to be happy, right? That we don't have to have our way all the time to be happy. And who doesn't want their way all the time? I think that's our natural selfishness, right? And so when both people learn to submit, submit to one another in Ephesians, and then wives particularly submit to your husbands, but it doesn't mean that husbands never submit to their wives, because the verse right before that says to submit to one another. And so we want to not parse out, you know, men get to boss women around and women have no choice. That's not the picture here that Paul talks about. In fact, a really interesting passage that kind of dovetails with this, if you think about Paul writing in a patriarchal culture where women had no rights at all, the things that he does say are pretty radical, like husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church, like you're to submit mutually to one another, like in the passage in 1 Corinthians 7, where it is weaponized that women are supposed to just have sex whenever their husband says so because their body is not their own. The most amazing word is in that passage. And you have to look at context when you're looking at the scripture. Paul is answering questions of a church that was kind of confused about certain things that were being taught incorrectly, like if you're married, you shouldn't have sex because sex is dirty. And Paul's saying, No, that's not true. If you're married, enjoy your marriage relationship. But the most operative word in a patriarchal culture of that whole passage is, and wives, your bodies is not your own, it's your husband. And likewise, husbands. So now Paul is taking a passage that would normally be read like this: husbands, you own your wives, and wives don't have a choice. And he's saying, Wives, you have the same privilege and power over your husband's body as he has over yours. Right? It's not one has power over. And so if we think about headship as loving leadership, not power over, then the headship and submission question is very different. It looks very different. And Jesus specifically says to his disciples, I'm going to give you power, but I as leaders of my church, but I don't want you to use it like the Gentiles do, who power over people. And so when Christ talks about leadership in his church, leadership in the home, it's never a power over model. And so when we look at that in terms of headship and submission, it makes perfect sense. And if a if a husband is to lay down his life for his wife and love, and a wife is to lay down her desires for her husband, it's sort of a mutual relationship in that way. And so headship isn't I get my way all the time. That has a different biblical word. It's called selfishness, right? And submission isn't only for women. Yes, it's a great discipline. It's important to keep peace in a family, in a church, to be able to have relationships that you just don't get your way all the time. And it's okay, you can survive. It's all right, you can still be happy. Um, and so I think this is how we have to look at what the teaching was. It wasn't, hey, husbands, you get to do whatever you might want, and your wife just has to say yes. It doesn't mean that at all. It was never meant that way, it's not taught that way. And if you look at the whole picture of God's heart, the context of scripture and the different passages around all that teaching, it never portrays that kind of picture.

Teresa: 23:29

Yes, yes. Oh, is there anything else just that I haven't touched on that you want to share?

Leslie: 23:37

You know, I think that if I could just remind people that they who they are, they are God's daughter. Men are God's sons, we are image bearers, we are meant for more. And that doesn't mean we're entitled to be crass or God in someone else's life, but we are precious to God. And especially as women, I think we have been objectified by the church. And as long as we do our wifely role or womanly role and know our place, we're valued, but we're not valued as co-heirs in Christ, as equal image bearers. And that doesn't mean you have to fight your church about that. Just I want you to understand that when we get to heaven, we'll see it completely different than perhaps we've seen it now. And so if you can begin to understand who you really are, that I love the psalmist where he says in Psalm 139, I am fearfully and wonderfully made, and my soul knows it full well. I don't think women know that very well. And I wish for them listening that you would really know your true value, even if your husband doesn't value you. My mother didn't value me, but I am still valuable, and it's really important that my value isn't dependent on another human being deciding.

Teresa: 24:57

I feel like I could ask you questions for the next three hours, but I know we have to wrap up. So, in closing, would you speak directly to the listener who is maybe realizing they're in an unhealthy or a destructive relationship? What would you want that woman to hear from your heart today?

Leslie: 25:20

That God loves you, that you're important, that you matter. And the best way that you can speak to your husband is for you to get strong enough to not put up with his crap. I was at the American Association of Christian Counselors Conference this last two weeks ago. And I was walking to a meeting and I didn't have my name tag on. And this big man, probably six foot five, stops me. He's got a suitcase and he says, Are you Leslie Vernick? And I'm always reluctant to say yes because I'm not sure in what context they have seen me or heard of me. And so I said, I was in a public place, I said yes, and he said, I want to thank you. Because, and he was a speaker at the American Association of Christian counselors, he was a very prominent person. I didn't recognize him, but he told me who he was. And he said, So here's a Christian man, a CEO of a big deal company. And he said, I was an abusive husband. And my wife started listening to you, and she started getting stronger and healthier and speaking the truth in love to me and wouldn't put up with my crap anymore. And it woke me up. Thank you. Thank you. You saved our marriage. So their marriage was saved, not because she submitted more and she gave in more to his stupidity, but she had the courage to love him well as his helpmate and say, Hey, you know, you would love your husband well if you said, Hey, your zipper's down in public, because you don't want him to humiliate himself. If he had a black mole in the back of his head, you would say, Hey, you have a black mole on the back of your head, you better go to the doctor. If we collude with our husband's delusion that they're living well when they're trashing their life and your marriage, that's not loving someone well. But it might cost you. They might be harsh with you, they might be mad at you, they might disagree, they might demonize you, or they might just repent. You don't know. But your godly behavior, Peter says, First Peter, he says, by your godly behavior, you might just wake up your husband. And if you suffer for doing what is right, what is good, not for enabling his sin, but for speaking the truth in love, for not putting up, giving him the consequences. That's what's good for him. Henry Cloud says, jail does some people good. Sometimes calling the police wakes someone up when they're being physically abusive. And so those are the courageous steps that a godly wife might have to take for her safety, for her children's safety, but for the welfare of her husband.

Teresa: 27:59

Leslie, thank you. You just shared so much wisdom and guidance and practical steps. I feel like I'm gonna listen to this over and over, and I just so, so appreciate your time. Thank you for being a guest. Well, thanks for having me. Appreciate it. Well, this is a conversation I'm going to be revisiting over and over again. It's one I think that needs to be shared. If you know a woman in a difficult situation, please forward this episode to them. It will be such a blessing. Thanks for hanging out with me today on Beauty in the Brokenness. To find anything I mentioned on the episode, go to TeresaWiting.com slash listen, which is where you can find all the show notes. I will have links to Leslie, her ministry, her books, her website, her podcast, all the places that she shows up. As she mentioned, she has a community of women that are ready to help others in this situation. Now you may be listening and thinking, you know, I've had some trauma in my life, maybe marital or maybe not. I want to invite you to consider the Hope Restore Trauma Intensive. I host this intensive with two of my dear friends and therapists, Ann Simmons and Brenda Stewart. What I love about the Hope Restore Trauma Intensive is that we combine clinical practices with biblical truth to create a unique and safe experience. Healing is possible, friend. Click the link in the show notes to learn more. In closing, I want to leave you with this prayer from number six, 24 to 26. The Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make his face shine on you and be gracious to you. The Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace.