Podcasting for Authors with Matty Dalrymple

Ever feel like your voice as an author gets lost in the crowd? 

In this week's interview, Matty Dalrymple of the Indy Author Podcast joins us to talk all about podcasting for authors. If you've ever wondered what it takes to be on a podcast, or start your own, this is the episode for you. It's a conversation packed with practical tips and advice you won't want to miss.

Matty Dalrymple is the author of the Lizzy Ballard Thrillers, the Ann Kinnear Suspense Novels, and the Ann Kinnear Suspense Shorts. Matty also podcasts, writes, speaks, and consults on the writing craft and the publishing voyage as The Indy Author. She has written books on the business of short fiction and podcasting for authors, and her articles have appeared in Writer’s Digest magazine.

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Matty Dalrymple
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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:37

Hi everyone, Welcome to the Author Wheel podcast. I'm Greta Boris, USA Today bestselling mystery thriller author.

Speaker 2: 0:44

And I'm Megan Haskell, award-winning fantasy adventure author. Together we are the Author Wheel. We have a fantastic conversation coming up with Maddie Dalrymple today on podcasting for authors. Maddie is the voice behind the Indie Author Podcast, which is a fantastic resource for writers, both indie and traditional, and she's also a good friend both personally and professionally, so this was a really fun conversation.

Speaker 1: 1:10

Yeah, maddie is, she is a true pro. So she what we talked about because we've had her on the show before, but what we're specifically talking about today with her is her new coaching business that she has for writers and authors who are trying to become guests on podcasts or start their own podcasts, and it's really great. I did a coaching session with her. I was kind of a guinea pig for her and she goes over how to pitch and how to present yourself and she really dials down into details things that never occurred to me to think about. So it was super helpful. She went over like technical issues. I was like, oh, you mean, there's technical issues. She was like it was super, it was really great. But anyway, we get into this a lot more in the podcast episode, so I will stop talking about it. And as far as what's going on with me which you didn't ask me, megan, but I know you were going to- I was about to yeah yeah.

Speaker 2: 2:17

I guess I'm just too predictable, go figure.

Speaker 1: 2:25

I'm just too predictable, go figure. Yeah, exactly. Well, it's not exciting, it's just as well. It's kind of same old, same old. The only sort of interesting thing that happened was I did mention last month that the first book in my mortician series was in a Kindle deal for the month of March, so I thought I would report back now that the month of March is over. I did see a bump in sales. It wasn't huge, but you know that little bit every single day definitely added up when I saw my final earnings for the month.

Speaker 1: 2:57

It did make a difference in my earnings for the month. So, all that being said, I will do it again, and if any of you listeners are offered an Amazon Kindle deal, I would totally try it and see if it works for your particular series. Nice, yeah, so that's my takeaway on that and what is happening with you, megan? I hope it's more interesting than me.

Speaker 2: 3:23

Well, to be totally honest, I kind of feel like a chicken with my head cut off this week, like I lost all of Monday recovering from WonderCon. I literally had to, like take a huge nap and then I mean, it was a fun event, I'm glad I did it, but still took a lot out of me. And then my kids are on spring break this week and I'm taking Friday off, so I'm working on a really short week to start with, and then I'm also putting the finishing touches on my Kickstarter campaign for the Last Descendant, which is going live next week. I will yeah, I finally decided to officially set the date, so it'll run from April 9th through the 26th, so I'm like in the ramp up for that and it's all coming together. It's all like the little teeny, tiny details now that have to be fixed, but it always ends up taking way more time than you think it should.

Speaker 1: 4:20

Yes, so yeah, and actually it will be this week by the time this intro airs.

Speaker 2: 4:27

Oh, that's true. Yes, it will.

Speaker 1: 4:28

Yes so.

Speaker 2: 4:29

Yeah, yeah. So it'll be going live tomorrow when this airs.

Speaker 1: 4:34

Yeah, yeah, and we will definitely have the link in the show notes and we hope that you will all go check it out. Yes, please.

Speaker 2: 4:41

That would be wonderful.

Speaker 1: 4:43

So what about WonderCon? I mean, you said it was great, but like that's exciting. Tell us about WonderCon.

Speaker 2: 4:51

Yeah. So I mean it was fun. It was a lot of fun and I'm always glad I did it. Financially it was not as successful as in the past. I ended up earning about half what I had earned last year, so that was a little disappointing, but I still made a profit, so it's okay. And the big thing was that I got to be on an author panel with Hugh Howey, which was absolutely amazing, and also several of my readers from past years came by to say hi and buy more books, which was fun.

Speaker 2: 5:24

I think that's probably the biggest benefit that I see from these events. I mean, obviously you want to make a profit and you want to have good sales, but it's seeing what works with readers, which readers come back, what they're liking, what they're excited about from your books All of that is such valuable information and having that connection with readers is is fabulous. In fact, both my first sale of the convention and my very last sale of the convention were readers from last year that came back. So the first one that's cool. Yeah, yeah, it was really. It was really, you know, gratifying cool. Yeah, yeah, it was really. It was really, you know, gratifying. Um, the first one was, uh, a guy who had bought the first two books in the Signore Chronicles last year and so I was his first stop of day. He like came in, came straight to the booth, wanted the rest of the series, bought the whole thing, and I was so honored that you know I was basically a big part of his reason for being at the show.

Speaker 1: 6:24

That's very cool. Did he also buy Aetherbound? Is he trying the new series?

Speaker 2: 6:30

He did not, he just completed Senyari Chronicles, but he was a younger reader, like older YA, he was actually there with his dad, but yeah, so kind of kind of makes sense a little bit for the series that he chose. And then my last sale of the convention was another woman who I was actually packing up like it was like the last 10 minutes of the show, and I was packing up like and she comes running up, she goes, wait, I'm here, I'm here. And so she had already bought all of the seigniori chronicles and aether bound. So she was there to buy aether crossed, um and uh. And I guess that just goes to show why you should never pack up early and leave early because you might miss some of your fans, some of your sales. So yeah, so those I mean honestly, those two interactions alone make it worthwhile for me, just because I get to see those people and the reactions and what's. You know what's making people happy? That's the whole point of writing, I feel like is that connection with readers so often?

Speaker 1: 7:40

You know, I was listening yesterday to the Wish I'd Known Then podcast. Wish I'd Known them for Writers, I think is the official title, and if you guys haven't listened to it you should run over there and listen to it. It's a great, a great podcast. But they had and I can't remember the name of the writer, but they had her on this and she's fabulously successful. But she said you know, especially with romance, sometimes you feel like insignificant or you're like you're not important. She goes, but you never forget. You are bringing people joy, you're bringing people entertainment, You're bringing people an escape, you know, from something that's hard in their lives. You know that authors who've been around for a while will tell you. You know, oh, somebody told me she read my whole series sitting at you know, her mother's bedside while she was dying of cancer and it helped her get through that time. We never know what our books are doing.

Speaker 2: 8:43

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 8:44

And how they're helping people and bringing them joy. So pep talk to all the writers out there and myself included, when we sometimes feel like what we're doing is frivolous compared to you know, firemen or doctors or nurses. Well, maybe it is frivolous compared to them, but it's still important.

Speaker 2: 9:11

Absolutely. It absolutely is important. So, yeah, well, before we move on, I just want to again take a quick moment to remind you please subscribe to the podcast. If you're enjoying the show, make sure you post a review of your favorite episodes and share them with a writer friend. We need that community. That community is so important and so often just saying hey, you know this one really resonated with me. I think it might work for you too, and your writer journey would be wonderful. We really appreciate all your support.

Speaker 1: 9:41

Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 9:42

All righty. Well, let's dive into the interview with Maddie Dalrymple Today. We are thrilled to have Maddie Dalrymple back on the show. She's one of our favorite fellow podcasters and she is the author of the Lizzie Ballard thrillers, the Anne Kinnear suspense novels and the Anne Kinnear suspense shorts. She's a member of International Thriller Writers and Sisters in Crime. Maddie also podcasts, writes, speaks and consults on the writing craft and the publishing voyage as the indie author.

Speaker 2: 10:18

So this is our second visit with Maddie and we are, like I said, so excited to have her back. She was actually one of our first guests we interviewed in season two, which was wonderful, but she is so brilliant and she's coming out with some new content all about podcasting. So that's our subject for today. So since we've already had her on the show, we're not going to ask our usual questions. If you want to hear her roadblocks and her journey into writing and all of that good stuff, go back to season two. We'll post the link in the show notes. But today we want to know Maddie, how did you get into podcasting?

Speaker 3: 10:57

Well, thank you very much for the opportunity to talk about it. There's nothing I like better than talking podcasting with fellow podcasters, so kind of like a meta conversation here on your podcast about that. Yeah, for sure we can nerd out. Yeah, I love to nerd out about podcasting. But I started the Indie Author Podcast in 2016, basically because I was a member of a writing group, the Brandywine Valley Writers Group, and I wanted an opportunity to talk to people in the group who had expertise in different areas. So there was someone who is very good at giving author readings. There was someone else who had formed sort of a co-op with some other authors in order to create a little publishing house. There was someone who was very experienced with outreach to media outlets, and I basically wanted an opportunity to talk to all these people and, almost as a way of paying them back for spending time with me to talk about their area of expertise, I recorded the conversations and I put them up as podcast episodes.

Speaker 3: 11:55

So in those early years I was publishing the podcast very infrequently and it was basically just a learning opportunity for me and a way to pay it forward to my basically my fellow writing group members so they could benefit from this expertise as well, and then in 2019, I left my corporate job and I had enough time then to go on a regular, more regular schedule. So I think at first I was going every other week, was going every other week, and then in 2020, I was able to go every week, and so those goals of learning from experts had continued. I carried that forward into my later podcast experiences, but then was adding some other things like. Podcasting is content marketing, podcasting is a source of direct or indirect income and other things. But I just think that podcasting is such a powerful platform and being able to talk to people you know, getting in someone's head very, almost literally, is a way you can form relationships that I think you really can't form any other way.

Speaker 1: 12:57

I would agree with that and I think it is, you know, the know like and trust thing. It's just a really great way when people can hear your voice and hear your humor and hear the way you tackle things. When it's off the cuff and it hasn't been edited, and all that other kind of stuff.

Speaker 1: 13:15

I mean, we only edit out silly things like dogs barking or, you know, cats jumping and knocking over computers and things like that. So I totally agree. So, based on what you just said, maddie, do you think everybody should start a podcast?

Speaker 2: 13:32

I do not as powerful as it is, I do not think everyone should start a podcast. Yeah, we knew the answer to that one in advance.

Speaker 3: 13:39

Yeah, I think everybody did, but I think it's definitely a question worth asking, because I think some people behave as if the answer is yes, and when I was working on the Indie Authors Guide to Podcasting for Authors, a number that I heard come up all the time was that 70% of podcasts pod faded before they got to seven episodes. Pod fading being you just stop putting out episodes and not like you have official closeout or anything like that. It's just like there's six episodes. And then that was four years ago and I was never able to find like the source for that, but I heard that number from so many people and it just felt right. Anecdotally, it felt right.

Speaker 3: 14:17

And so the early chapters of the Indie Authors Guide podcast for authors are all about what things should a potential podcaster think through to decide if podcasting is for them. So, as an example, if someone is thinking of doing a podcast about interesting historical sites around the Philadelphia area that's where I live then they should be able to write down two dozen topics that they want to address as part of that podcast. And if you can, that's you know. That shows that you have enough material there that you're, you know, a good fodder for an ongoing podcast.

Speaker 3: 14:53

If you can't, if you can't write down two dozen topics, then maybe having your own podcast is not the way to go. And there are all sorts of other things you know assessing. If you decide you do want to go ahead with a podcast, how do you match up your professional, personal goals with the kind of podcast you want to put out there? Like I enjoy talking with people, I would never have solo podcast because that wouldn't be appealing to me. But you know you can adjust these things after you first decided whether it's right for you or not.

Speaker 2: 15:20

I think that makes so much sense. I love the idea of putting together a list of a content list I guess 24 episodes or 24 ideas before you even start, and I think that's key, not just for podcasting but also for any other kind of subscription style, product or service, right? I mean, I kind of did something similar with my Subst, my sub stack newsletter, and I would argue that in the past I never have, and perhaps that's why my past endeavors have sometimes failed. Yeah, like, how do you actually go about, I mean, other than you know for you, since it's an interview podcast other than, like you know, finding guests? Are there 24 people you can invite? How do you actually put that together? As far as, like, how do you think through that content schedule?

Speaker 3: 16:11

Well, it all starts out with either the topic I want to talk about or the person I want to talk to, and I do pull a lot of people from conferences I go to, so whenever I get back to a conference the three of us were at 20 Books. I came back with lots of people I wanted to talk to from 20 Books. I talked to Todd Funnestock who had given a great presentation on how to optimize in-person sales, and I was like that's definitely a topic I want to talk to him about, and I have a joke that people can tell whatever I'm struggling with at the moment in my own author career based on the topics I'm talking to people about on the show. But it's a combination of. There's a person I loved and I want to talk to them about almost anything.

Speaker 3: 16:51

Jeff Elkins would fall into that category. Jeff Elkins could just call me up anytime and I would say, sure, come on over and tell me what you want to talk about or topics that I'm really interested in, so I'll go look for a person who I think is expert on that. Yeah, and then, and so I in general, because the podcast is focused on the writing craft and the publishing voyage, I sort of try to alternate between craft related and business related topics, but there really isn't more planning that goes into laying out all the episodes than what I just described.

Speaker 1: 17:20

So what other kinds of things do you think people need to think through before they might start a podcast of their own? And I know we're going to talk about becoming a guest on someone else's podcast, which is a way lower bar to entry than starting your own podcast. But I do think that you know if there are people in the audience who are thinking about it. If you were going to make a pro and cons list, what would be on the pros side and what would be on the cons side for those people to be thinking about?

Speaker 3: 17:54

Well, all the pros of the goals that I mentioned. So it is a great way to learn. It is a great way to pay it forward to your community. It's a great way to network. It can be great way to pay it forward to your community. It's a great way to network. It can be, if you're willing to put the time into. It can be a great way to earn another stream of income as an author.

Speaker 3: 18:12

I would say that the cons are it is the long game. So people who say I'm going to start a podcast because I want to earn some money I don't know that. I know anybody who isn't already a celebrity Like, if you're already a celebrity and you decide you want to add a podcast as something you're just adding on to the way you reach out to your fans and followers, sure, but if you don't have a huge celebrity following yet, then it's not going to be a moneymaker right off the bat. I don't know. I'll ask you guys to comment on that as well, but I would say it's the setting your expectations appropriately and then, knowing it's the long game, I'm going to throw the question back to you to see what you guys think.

Speaker 1: 18:47

Well, it's also a time commitment. You know it's a big time commitment because we've talked to a couple of people who had podcast fades, like you said, and I think they just thought it was going to be a lot less work than it was to just even to produce it and all of that. And then if you do hire help, then it's an expense as well.

Speaker 3: 19:12

So yeah, and I think part of that is you can sort of manage that if you've thought through it carefully ahead of time. So I had mentioned that in my book. There are things about like what kind of persona do you want to convey? What kind of brand do you want to represent? How formal or informal do you want it to be? Do you want it to be clean or explicit? All those kinds of questions.

Speaker 3: 19:33

And if you decide that you really want to network with people but you don't want to spend a lot of time with it, then there's certainly podcasts out there where it's basically someone goes into a bar, turns on the recorder on their iPhone, record something and they put it out in the podcast and they're going to get an audience. You know, maybe you're not going to get a huge audience, but maybe you're going to get a super enthusiastic small audience who loves that kind of informality. And so if you set the expectation with your audience that this is going to be informal and sometimes you won't be able to hear the guests because there's like cutlery sound in- the background like ice cubes or something, then that that can be okay, but you have to set your own expectations.

Speaker 3: 20:11

You have to set the audience's expectations, your guests expectations. So some of that can be managed, but, yeah, it's never going to be zero amount of work.

Speaker 2: 20:24

Yeah, yeah, I think that was maybe the biggest surprise for us is that how much work does go into it, cause we do even I mean, we have, we have a producer, we have an editor who does all of that post work for us, and even with that it's still a lot of work.

Speaker 2: 20:35

It's still a lot of a lot of time and effort goes into this. So, so that's something, something that that has to be considered before you go in to create a podcast, because you're gonna have to add that into whatever it is that you're already doing, and so is that even feasible, I guess. But, and then to your point on the the long term nature, I don't know, I think, I think that's been. I think, to do podcasting in a lot of ways it's the same as as writing in general. You know you have to have other reasons for doing it than just the money, because otherwise you're probably going to end up, you know, disappointed in the short term. I think long term there's a lot of potential, yeah, but in the short term, you know it takes it takes a while to build up enough of an audience to actually earn any kind of income off of ads or sponsorships or anything like that.

Speaker 3: 21:29

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I've definitely earned more money from the speaking engagements that having a podcast has opened up for me and that having a network of guests has opened up for me than I've made from the podcast. So can be very successful for indirect income earning. But yeah, again, just set one's expectations appropriately, yeah.

Speaker 2: 21:52

And I think that was another benefit that we noticed too, is just having that network. Building that network was one of the biggest pros of having the podcast is that, hey, we get to invite you on and chat and like get to know you and see your, see your smiling face on our zoom screen as we're recording, and that's, that's wonderful. So building that community has been awesome. But for if you're more introverted or if you're, you know, less tech savvy things like that you might have to. You know that might be a con actually Right.

Speaker 3: 22:22

Well, I do think that there are like everything's manageable to an extent, but there are just some things like if somebody hates the sound of their voice and they refuse to listen to the recordings of themselves, then you really shouldn't do a podcast, because you really have to commit to kind of listening to your product sometimes, because there are just some things that that you need to either improve or that you're doing well and you need to capitalize on that you only can get if you listen to yourself. And if someone says, oh no, I don't want to do that, then I'm like then maybe you need to find another way to fill in the blank build a community or earn money or use content marketing or whatever it is. So, yeah, I mean introverts might decide to do audio but not video.

Speaker 1: 23:12

Or they might do an interview where they're focusing more of the attention on the guests themselves. But yeah, there's a low bar that at some point you just have to or not, but just discuss. Talking about podcasts in general, can you outline some of the benefits for us to use? You have already talked about some of the benefits of being a podcaster, but how about podcasts in the writing community and how they benefit? Authors.

Speaker 3: 23:41

Well, I think that the real power of podcasts as a guesting opportunity is for making connections with listeners, for expanding your reach by providing value to the listeners of your hosts podcast.

Speaker 3: 24:00

Certainly you get the same benefits in terms of building a network and so on and building a potentially really deep relationship with the audience that you're reaching. Because even I mean I hate to say this as a writer, but I do think that audio offers an opportunity for a depth of relationship that you don't get even from writing. Like I think about if I were going to write a blog post or an article about any topic that I've interviewed someone about on the podcast or been interviewed as a guest on the podcast, which is the more compelling content and for me, being able to hear somebody talk about it, hearing the excitement in their voice or the animation, lack of animation or whatever it might be that makes me feel like I know a person in a way that I'm just not going to get if I'm reading, and so that's a great benefit for hosts. It's a great benefit for guests as well.

Speaker 1: 24:54

Yeah, I would agree with that. There's been so many times I've listened to a podcast and heard an author interviewed and thought, oh guy, I wasn't particularly interested, I'd seen, say, their series or their books and they looked interesting but didn't grab me. And then I hear the author talk about, you know, the research they did or the experience they had or something behind the scenes that led to that book or that book series, and then I'm like I have to go buy it, you know.

Speaker 3: 25:25

Yeah, and I think that that is a great point. If I were giving tips for guests, what you're mentioning is the best tip, which is go in being ready to tell a story, not sell your product. Yes, and I was just thinking earlier. I was working on an article for a magazine and my normal writing approach is that I'll write up the outline, then I'll open up ChatGPT and say what are 10 topics that I should cover within an article on this general subject, and then I'll get the list back and I'll be like yeah, yeah, yeah, oh yeah, I didn't think of that one. You know it's always a good double check. Oh yeah, I didn't think of that one. You know it's always a good double check.

Speaker 3: 26:07

But if you go into the AI and you say, write me a 1,200-word article about this topic and spit something out, yes, it's extraordinary that a computer can do that, but it's usually pretty boring. And the thing that is interesting about articles written by actual people is the stories they tell. In exactly the same way, the things that are interesting about podcasts articles written by actual people is the stories they tell. In exactly the same way, the things that are interesting about podcast guesting discussions is the stories they're told. That's just the human thing that is. There's no other way to get that than to hear that person tell that story about themselves.

Speaker 2: 26:39

I think that's so key and I like the idea of telling stories, but it even goes deeper than that. Specifically with podcasting, as a guest, I feel like you need to be ready and willing to share your personality. So, yes, it's your story, it's your journey, it's whatever anecdote that you can bring to the table that relates to the subject matter, but it's how you tell it as well, it's the words you use, where you put the emphasis. I mean, I use a lot of hows when I talk right that you can't see in the written word. So, again, I think when you're on a podcast, that's what your listeners are probably looking for. It's that personality, that the actual individual behind the words and the subject.

Speaker 3: 27:30

Yeah, and there's some really interesting examples about both honoring your own personality and mirroring or whatever I'm not sure that's the term, but the two examples I can come up with is that I've been on and had as a guest Sasha Black of the Rebel Author Podcast and she was, I think, talking about creating compelling villains. And before we started out, I mean, if anyone's listened to the Rebel Author Podcast, you know that it's not a podcast that's marked as clean yeah, intentionally, and that's why her followers love her. And she came on my podcast in the beginning she said is your podcast clean or explicit? And for anyone who doesn't manage a podcast, that's actually like a little checkmark you have to put in the podcast management Because you know you don't want a mom or dad driving their kids to soccer practice and have a non-clean podcast show up by surprise. And so I said, oh well, they're clean. And she completely honored that, like, not that she was subsuming her wonderful personality, but she was honoring that fact. And then the other example that just came up was I was just talking to Dale Roberts of Self Publishing with Dale and we had spoken I think he had interviewed me a couple of weeks earlier and then I was interviewing him for something and he said that the last time we had talked, when I was the guest and he was the host, after the interview was over, his wife said who are you talking to?

Speaker 3: 28:51

And he said Maddie. And she said you're like, energy was so calmer than it normally was. And he said, well, that's because I can't be like, and then you know, I think I have a calmer, calmer energy than that and he was able to sort of adjust. So that's kind of a pro tip for both guests and hosts is that ability to sort of more appropriately so that you're having a kind of comparable level of energy with the person you're talking with.

Speaker 1: 29:18

That is an excellent tip because we have had in the past a couple of guests that were much more deliberate in the way that they share information and there were longer pauses. I'm from New York. A New York minute is way shorter than anybody else's minute and when there's dead air I'm just like I better talk. I better talk right now. You know what I mean. And I had to dial it back because they were pausers and I would have been doing all the talking and they're my guest, you know. So that is a really I wish I had had that pro tip before and you shared that with me before we'd had those interviews, because I was like sitting on my hands and biting my tongue and I probably interrupted them or whatever more than I should have.

Speaker 3: 30:09

So that's a good tip Plus of having video, even if you're not going to use the video when you're interviewing someone, because I have interviewed people. I've interviewed a couple of people, on audio only, who were those kinds of people who were like deliberate and thinking and there'd be a pause and I'd be like I'm not getting any hint as to whether they're waiting for me to ask a question or they're thinking. So I'm always appreciative when someone lets me be on video, even if it's not going to get used publicly.

Speaker 2: 30:36

Oh yeah, we have found that so incredibly valuable just to be able to read. You know, eye contact and nods, and when somebody opens their mouth but doesn't quite get the words out because they're trying to say something but then you get interrupted, right Like having that, that visual cue is definitely key as well. So if you wanted to be a guest on somebody's podcast, besides trying to match their energy levels and think about their audience and all of those things how do you even begin? Where do you start for the pitching process? What do you recommend authors do?

Speaker 3: 31:11

Well, the first thing I recommend authors do is to listen to podcasts, because I think there's sort of an etiquette around podcasts that you don't get unless you're a listener, and I think that the best guests are the people who are enthusiastic listeners. So I think you should be familiar with podcasts in general and then you need to like listen to the podcast that you want to pitch. So I just interviewed Michelle Glogovac, who is the head of the MLG Collective, and she just put out a book called how to Get on Podcast. So I can recommend Michelle's book. But what she said is that you can really go down a great rabbit hole by going into a podcast player and putting something in. Like, let's say you I'm going to mimic her example a little bit but let's say you're an expert in tulip gardening and so you put in tulip gardening and you probably get a bunch of there are probably like 17 podcasts specific to tulip gardening. But then you'll say, oh well, gardening in general or like landscaping, oh, that's interesting. Or hobbies, or hobbies for people of a certain demographic, or oh, I realize I'm specializing in Southern gardens as opposed to Northern gardens, whatever those are. But you can.

Speaker 3: 32:18

You can spend a very productive amount of time, kind of tracing all those out, finding those podcasts that feel appealing to you as a listener, because you're going to be more likely to be successful if you enjoy them as a listener. There are like podcast matchmaker services that are out there, but I actually I don't recommend people go there. First, some of them used to offer free options and you could say, like I'm an expert in this, so I'm looking at podcasts that talk about this, and then the podcast host could say, well, I'm a podcast that talks about this one, you know the? It kind of works, um, so my recommendation is do that kind of like work or ear work, because then you want to listen to it, and then, um, make sure you're pitching appropriately. Like, if there's a podcast that never hosts a guest, don't pitch yourself as a guest, don't send out generic pitches and you guys feel free to jump in if anything I'm saying is like especially striking it off with you.

Speaker 1: 33:18

Yeah, we have had a couple of pitches because our guests, although most of them are authors themselves, not all of them are authors and we really focus on people who have products and services and or really maybe unique and interesting experiences that might help writers with their own writing and publishing journey Similar to yours, writing and publishing journey similar to yours Whereas, for instance, the Wish I'd Known Then podcast, just their focus is just interviewing authors about how they got where they are. It's two completely different kinds of podcasts. And so when we get pitches and we do like, oh, you should talk to this person because his first book just came out and it's really resonating with you know, the community that is doing caretaking for aging parents and blah, blah, blah, and I'm like why? Why are they? Just because somebody saw author? Oh, he's an author, he should be on your show it's like no, obviously you're not listening to the show.

Speaker 3: 34:27

Yeah, and book tour podcasts are much different than educational or informational podcasts for professional writers.

Speaker 2: 34:34

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 34:35

Yeah, because I do get a bunch of. I got so many requests I just have a book coming out. Especially among my friends it was embarrassing. They'd say you know my book is coming out, can I be on your podcast? I have to be like no, no, not really, it's really not that kind of podcast. And I got so many of those that I finally spun up the what I Learned video series, which you guys have both been on, to give people a chance to talk about that. It was kind of like my paying it back to the author community offering, but it was great because I did get a couple of podcast guests, because we got to the end of the conversation about their book and I'm like that is really fascinating. I interviewed a guy named Cliff Beach who talked about how he had just had a book come out, but he had been like a lifelong music professional. We kept talking about what lessons from his musical career he carried forward to his author career and I'm like I definitely want to talk with you about that for 35 minutes.

Speaker 1: 35:24

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 35:24

Because he was just you know, he's very easy to talk to, he's very approachable, and he was able to express his ideas very effectively and tie them effectively to maybe an area that he wouldn't have if he had been talking to somebody in the music world or whatever that might be. So, yeah, being familiar with the podcast you're pitching to is essential, and then being able to say, oh, I think you know, I have this topic that's applicable to your audience, this is how it could benefit your audience, right, I think that's the key that a lot of people miss. This is what I have to share that could benefit your audience. And then the extra credit, the little cherry on top could be, and I think it would be a great companion piece to the episode you did last month when you were talking to about such and such Like. This is new and different, but I know your podcast enough to be able to express that I have actually listened to an episode.

Speaker 1: 36:14

Yes.

Speaker 2: 36:15

Yeah, I can't even tell you how many pitches we've gotten from what looks very clearly like a PR service or a podcast match service or you know something like that, where they they clearly have not listened, and most of the time I don't even we don't even respond to those pitches, which maybe that's not best practice, but I think it's fair. Whereas if somebody comes through and says at least, hey, we think this is a good fit, because X, y, z, we listened to this. We think this person, you know whatever has there's reasons and there's actual personalization of that email, I'll at least be like I am so sorry we're booked up for six months, but you know, contact us back in the future and we'll do that. So I think for for people who are in that pitching process, it's very important to keep that in mind that the more that you can tailor your pitch, your, your, your approach to the podcast, the better off you'll be.

Speaker 3: 37:11

Yeah, and I've actually. I tend to discount PR pitches more. They're actually. There's actually only one PR firm that I get pitches from and I take them seriously because I have a relationship with them.

Speaker 3: 37:25

But when people are asking like, is it better for me to do this myself or is it better to have a professional do it, I always say unless again, unless you're a celebrity it's better to do it yourself, because having someone between the host who's assessing a potential guest and the guest having that buffer makes it harder for the host to tell if the person is going to be a good match or not. And there's been a couple fortunately very few, but a couple of episodes of the indie author podcast where I started in on a conversation and like 10 minutes in I'm like this person clearly had no idea that their PR department had pitched my podcast on this particular topic. And so I think some people think, oh, is it going to make me look more professional if I go through a third party like a publicist? And I don't think so. I think doing it yourself is more personal and more effective.

Speaker 2: 38:17

I agree. I think in the past that was the advice, though wasn't it that you had to, or you should, get a PR or third party for media placement and stuff? I mean, I don't know, it seems like, seems like sounds right, Sounds like traditional, traditional advice.

Speaker 3: 38:32

Yeah, I know I've heard that advice. Yeah, you know I've heard that advice before, but I would just like to offer a counter that it's not necessarily always true.

Speaker 2: 38:41

I 100% agree, actually, and I think that's one case where the shifts in the industry and maybe it's particularly our industry, because we mostly work with indie authors and indie publishers and small presses, things like that so we're a little bit different than if you were a New York Times bestseller pitching the Today Show, for example. That's a little different.

Speaker 1: 39:08

Well, with the big media outlets. It's kind of like you have to have a literary agent to pitch the big publishers. So, with the big media outlets, I think that they have relationships with some of these PR people so that they can get to, you know, the decision maker at USA, you know at like Good Morning America or something like that, whereas you know Greta Boris, as amazing as I am, probably cannot get you know, I can't. I don't have a direct line to Whoopi Goldberg or anybody like that. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 39:45

And early on you shouldn't be pitching Whoopi Goldberg. So, especially for authors who are early in their in their pitching career, like don't, don't start right at the top, yeah, yeah. Like find some smaller wins where you won't be freaked out when you, when you sign on and maybe you know the person, maybe you have some relationship with them. Like, I think as a career. Like if your career explodes, then some of these rules don't apply. Then certainly you can hire a PR firm. But when you're starting out, the more personal the touch the better.

Speaker 2: 40:16

Yeah, well, and it's practice which, I think, takes me into our next question, which is okay you've been accepted as a guest on a podcast. How do you, how you've been accepted as a guest on a podcast, how do you prepare, how do you put yourself out there so that you're ready and able to talk intelligently with as few ums as possible?

Speaker 3: 40:35

Yeah, well, um-wise. And now I'm going to be super self-conscious about saying um.

Speaker 2: 40:40

Me too. Don't worry about it, I just did it to myself.

Speaker 1: 40:42

I'm sure she said that we were actually so just quick note. We were actually so just quick note. We were just actually interviewed on Mark Leslie Lefebvre's podcast and he said he will edit out ums and uhs. And immediately I was like do I say ums and uhs? A lot of ums and uhs? I was like I just got all paranoid. So hey, this is an um and uh free zone. You can say them or not say them, we don't care on the Author Wheel podcast.

Speaker 3: 41:09

So well. I would say that a pro tip is just to stop talking instead of saying, um, yeah, because my nightmare edit is I actually have software that will take out us and ums automatically, which is great, as well as other things. But you know, like you knows and all the things that I just said, that I shouldn't have, but giving people a chance to think. Actually, I'm going to go back to the Jeff Elkins interview, because early on I used a really heavy editing hand on all my podcast episodes. It's filler word removal is what I'm talking about, and so you can remove every filler word and I did that. And then I played back Jeff's interview and I was like that doesn't even sound like him, because part of kind of the joy of listening to him is you'll ask him a question and he'll think about it and you can see the wheels turning and he's taking the question seriously and he's giving care to the answer he gives and if you strip all that out then you lose that touch. But it does get distracting to people to hear the uhs and ums and so to the extent that people can just not say anything for a moment, that would be another pro tip, but I wouldn't let people get too hung up on that, because everybody's going to say it and it's fine, and you don't even hear it. You know, when you're listening to a podcast, you don't even hear people saying things like that.

Speaker 3: 42:27

But the key is really to go in with stories, and I think the best way to get stories is to talk with a friend about whatever the topic is.

Speaker 3: 42:36

So if you're talking about what's a stumbling block that you needed to overcome and how did you do that, then get together with an author friend and answer that question to them, because the story you tell your friend is going to be the story you want to tell to the listeners of that podcast and you don't want to be saying in 2013, when my first book came out, I had worked on it for two and a half years.

Speaker 3: 43:02

No, you want to think what's behind that? Like when people ask me about starting out writing, the story I tell is being at the Yellowstone Hotel with my husband and if ever a hotel was going to be haunted, it was going to be the Yellowstone Hotel, and a scene popped into my mind that I saw very clearly of a woman who can sense dead people and she goes to a house and she can't go in because the reader, but not the protagonist, knows that a murder has taken place there and that was the start of the Sense of Death. And that is much more interesting story. It's usually longer. I shortened it way up and then just kind of a rote recitation of what my publishing history is and is certainly more interesting than a sales pitch.

Speaker 1: 43:42

Is that the Anne Kinnear novel? Is that the Anne Kinnear novel? Yes, okay. So I read the other series, the Lizzie Ballard, yep, and now see it worked, because now I have to go read Anne Kinnear because that is just so up my alley. Anyway, I do digress, but listeners, listen to how that worked. She told that just an abbreviated version of the story and now I'm all hot to go get that book and read it. So this it does.

Speaker 1: 44:16

It can really work because you're hearing the author and I always say too that when you read a book it's like you're mind. It's a very personal experience because I'm taking those words directly through my eye gate or my ears if I'm listening to audiobooks into my brain. It's kind of nice to hear that author on a podcast. First, because there's been a few times I've started a book and thought I do not want to mind melt with this person. You know they're interesting. Yeah, this is not a person I want in my head. So I think that. Or it is someone who seems very inviting and engaging and I'd like to know where their brain goes. So I think that's really a good idea. I also think it's a good idea to talk things through with friends. I never thought about that before, but I do love that I talk to my dog sometimes, yeah.

Speaker 2: 45:11

Dogs work too, and it's a great idea.

Speaker 2: 45:13

But I actually I think we should take it a step further and say that when you're on a podcast or any kind of interview where you know whether it's a video or or just audio, only treating it like that person across from you is your friend is gonna be so much more entertaining to the listener or viewer than if you are very formal and stilted and you're, like you know, uptight about things. Right, like if you think about late night TV shows when they're doing the interviews, what's the most engaging interview? It's not the person that's sitting there very calmly and politely answering the questions and being professional and all of those things. It's the person that's like oh my gosh, did you see that? Like, I just love this thing, and blah, blah, blah. Right, they're very engaged, they're very energetic and it is a even if it's not true, it seems like a friendship between the host and the guest. So if you can mimic that sort of mentality, you're going to be a lot more entertaining than if you're, you know, very, very formal. I guess is moral of the story.

Speaker 2: 46:21

So treat your host like a friend and your audience yeah.

Speaker 3: 46:25

And I guess it's all a matter of the persona you want to create. So I don't think there are many of these people out in the audience. But let's say you're a nuclear physicist and you're going on a podcast about the you know, impending nuclear holocaust or something like that, then obviously you don't want to do that Like, if you're talking, you know, if you're a brain surgeon, then you want to hear someone who's talking very logically and calmly and doesn't seem to get ruffled easily, because I wouldn't want to be operated on by somebody who gets ruffled easily. But I think that for the audience that we're reaching here, then you're absolutely right. A group of authors want to hear stories and they want to hear them in an animated and engaging way, and that's what you should try to do in your, in your guest appearances.

Speaker 2: 47:07

Yeah, but I think, even if you're an expert though, on a, on a podcast or show or whatever, showing your passion for the subject. So even if you are that, that brain surgeon, and you have to be calm and in control and professional to an extent at least you know, through the voice, through your tone I would suggest showing that passion for your subject matter and your expertise, rather than, like you don't want to. Yes, I can operate on brains. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3: 47:39

That's a great way of putting it.

Speaker 1: 47:42

Yeah, you got to show you have a little bit of a bedside manner. So tell us about your coaching service that you've got going, because you are obviously have given this whole thing a lot of thought about how to be a guest, how to pitch people, how to do. You know, obviously you've given it a lot more thought than we have and we have a podcast, which is a little scary. I think, megan and I need your coaching course.

Speaker 3: 48:14

I'm never doing it well, naturally, I don't think you need coaching.

Speaker 1: 48:18

So tell us. Tell us more about it, though, because, no, I'm super excited. I think it's a really brilliant idea and very needed in the industry.

Speaker 3: 48:27

Well, thank you. Well, it came about because I had started this video series. I mentioned that you guys have both been on what I Learned and I asked authors two questions related to their latest book what did they learn that they would like to share with their fellow writers? And what did they learn that they would like to share with their fellow readers? And originally this was going to be like a friends and family thing and then some PR companies found out about it and started sending me people. I finally had to cut back on that a little bit. But what I found was I found several times the PR person would call me after the interview and say, oh, that was so-and-so's first interview ever and they were really excited and happy. Like they were very nervous going in and then they talk with you and then, when they were done, they were really excited and happy. Like they were very nervous going in and then they talk with you and then, when they were done, they were really pleased with it. And now they've seen the video and they were happy with that. And you know I took that as a compliment because I'm glad I created an environment where they were comfortable like that. And I also realized that I not only have you know now 220 plus episodes of the New Author Podcast and have been on many podcasts as a guest, but I also have a background from my corporate career.

Speaker 3: 49:32

When I worked in the corporate world, I was part of a team of people who gave I hate to call it new employee orientation, but it was basically a two-day session where we would talk about the tools that employees could use in order to improve their results. So it was teamwork and setting goals and communication skills and all those giving feedback, things like that and throughout the two days, we would have executives come in and tell stories about how them implementing the things that we talked about in the two-day session had improved their own results, had improved their own results and, as a facilitator for this, I was responsible for coaching the executives to tell a story that would be compelling and exactly some of the things that we've talked about so far, like if they came in and droned on you know, megan, like you were saying, it's like you've got to, like, pick up the energy a little bit or if their story wasn't very crisp, finding ways to really identify what the kernel of what they wanted to convey was and focusing what they were saying, on that, picking out those things that were going to make the story they wanted to tell as effectively as possible. So I started thinking I have these all these seemingly disparate but it turns out supporting skills and background, and I like the idea of helping other people like these people who had come to me to do the what I Learned episodes, feel more comfortable going to that so they don't have to go into the first one feeling super nervous about it. And so I started a consulting service called PodPro Author Coaching, and what I do is I actually do that interview, that what I Learned interview, or sort of a fake version of it, because I don't necessarily guarantee that it will go up on my YouTube channel.

Speaker 3: 51:13

I do that interview with them and then I edit that and I give them an edited version of that so they can use it for their own purposes. And then we get together as a follow up and we go through their performance and I give them tips related mainly to one is content, like is do you have a story you're telling and how effectively are you telling it? Their persona, like tips about getting more energy in their delivery or something like that. And then the technical things, like I can't see your face or you need a better microphone, or whatever that might be. And then there are some other add-ons, like membership in my private Facebook group and things like that. But just that having that interaction, especially for authors who are just going into you know, just venturing into the podcast world for the first time to give them that comfortable feeling that they're going into it having already broken the ice and feeling comfortable with the format, feeling comfortable with the technology and so on.

Speaker 2: 52:10

Practice.

Speaker 1: 52:12

That's really, really, it's brilliant. Yeah, because I also think that one of the things that can come across poorly in an interview is if you're nervous and nerves can manifest themselves all different ways. It can be you over talk, or you don't talk enough, or you stutter talk, or whatever.

Speaker 2: 52:34

Or you sweat profusely, like I do right.

Speaker 3: 52:38

I don't know that there's anything I'm going to be able to do about that, other than say, like, don't show your armpits, which is actually a tip, that is a practical tip.

Speaker 2: 52:49

Yeah, well, I mean, and that's the thing, like it took practice, greta and I used to teach live and in person, and I would always have to change shirts afterwards because I'd get nervous and that would be my physical reaction, which is I can't believe I'm admitting this on the air, but you know, there you go.

Speaker 3: 53:10

Well, my personal story is that if I can't, I can't believe I'm admitting this on the air, but you know, there you go. Well, my personal story is that if I can't, I can't have a glass with ice cubes in it, because I have very unsteady hands. I think with improved like sound technology, this isn't as much of an issue as it used to be, but I never pick anything up where, if my hand is shaking, you're going to be able to hear the ice cubes shake. So it's the same thing Like you learn those things about yourself and it's better to learn it with a friendly audience than to learn it the hard way in front of an audience of thousands, absolutely yeah.

Speaker 1: 53:34

And having a person who is a professional, who's been doing something for a very long time not like you're old or anything, maddie, I didn't mean that that way but for quite a while, give you those professional tips that your friends and family can't Like. You can have a discussion with your friends and family, like you said. Just go over the stories you're going to tell, and they can give you some little tips like pick up the energy, or you're rambling in this part, this part was a little boring, or whatever. They can give you some tips, but they cannot give you the tips that somebody who has been learned the hard way, through the hard knocks of life and made all the mistakes can give you. And so I think that's brilliant, that's a really excellent service.

Speaker 1: 54:22

And for all you guys listening out there, if you're thinking about pitching yourself to podcasts, I would totally go check out. We'll have the link in the show notes, but I would totally go check out Maddie's service, because I think this is. I would just make you come across as so much calmer and so much more of a professional yourself. So I think that's a great, a great service. So do you want to give our guests any last little tidbit tips on this topic before we go to all your links and where they can find everything?

Speaker 3: 55:02

Oh, last tips. You've given me an opportunity to say so many of the tips. I guess one tip I will say is that when you start landing those podcast appearances, something that you can do to smooth the way for future ones is, at the end of the episode, ask the interviewer if there are other podcasts that they think that your topic would be a good fit for, because podcasters talk to podcasters, and having a virtual introduction, if someone says, oh yeah, you know that one thing you talked about that's related to so, and so I know somebody who would be super excited about that. You know, let me introduce you. And that goes not just for your host but for anyone.

Speaker 3: 55:43

You know, don't be shy to ask for virtual introductions. I know both you guys have kindly offered virtual introductions for me to other people. You can certainly ask your host for that, and then you can certainly pay that forward by when you're in that position where you can make a match. You know the personal matchmaking is the way to go, and so if you are talking to a fellow author and you're saying, oh man, that would be a great topic on such and such podcast, you know you can also pay it forward by making that virtual introduction as well.

Speaker 1: 56:14

Yeah, that's that is. That is a lovely tip, so why don't you tell everybody where they can find out more about you, your podcast and your new coaching program?

Speaker 3: 56:26

Thank you Well, thank you so much. It's always so lovely to chat with you guys. I appreciate the invitation and if people are interested in my fiction work they can go to maddiedalrymplecom. That's Maddie with a Y M-A-D-D-Y. And if they're interested in my nonfiction work they can go to thePro. Author Coaching.

Speaker 1: 56:51

Okay, that is wonderful and, as I said before, all those links will be in the show notes, and this has just been such a good conversation and kind of a different topic for us. So I love it. I love to. There's just so many different aspects to this whole author career and this is a nice little niche that we had never spoken about before. And speaking of all different aspects to this author career, we do have a free course on the author wheel for you. It's called Seven Steps to Clarity. Uncover your Author Purpose and in seven short lessons, we take you through a process of self-examination to discover your motivations and your purposes for writing, create an author mission statement and even distill that into a tagline. So go check it out. I did mention it was free and until next time, keep your stories rolling.