StoryFirst w/ Damian Grey
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StoryFirst w/ Damian Grey
Balancing Passion and Profession in Video Storytelling
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In this episode I'm joined with Kemp Lyons with Ember Scout to talk about the elusive buzzword - Storytelling. We explore the art and structure of storytelling, stressing its vital role in video production and marketing. Here's a great episode to gain insights into frameworks and strategies that help create impactful narratives that resonate with audiences.
• Definition of storytelling and its importance
• Kemp’s journey from game design to filmmaking
• The role of emotional engagement in storytelling
• Tools for effective storytelling in the digital age
• Starting with audience strategy and distribution
• The framework of "Do, Think, Feel" in narrative development
• Practical tips for filmmakers to refine their craft
• The evolution of storytelling techniques in modern media
Connect with Kemp: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kemplyons/
FilmStory Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/filmstory/id1641955836
What do we do: https://myfilmstory.com
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@myfilmstory
Storytelling in Video Production
Speaker 1So today we're talking storytelling , the elusive , the term that has turned social media upside down , the just just it's everywhere and it's nowhere . At the same time , storytelling , my hopes is to be able to leave , to have you guys leave with a little bit of clarity , maybe some steps , maybe some insight on where we view storytelling , steps you can take and maybe just insight on how you can implement that into what it is that you do , because it is a foundation of video production , it's a foundation of really being able to serve your client well . And so today we have with us Mr Kemp Lyons with Ember Scout . I'm so excited to have you here , kemp . How are you doing ?
Speaker 2I am living the dream . Hey , nice , wait , hold on , let me smile . I'm living , excited to have you here . Kemp , how are you doing ? I am living the dream .
Speaker 1Hey , nice , wait , hold on , let me smile .
Speaker 2I'm living the dream .
Speaker 1It's more believable that way right . Right , there you go .
Speaker 2Nice man .
Speaker 1So Kemp is the executive producer for Ember Scout . He has a ton of history , a ton of background in just education , teaching in universities , adjunct um , being a director at other universities . I mean he's he's done a good bit of work , so I'm excited to hear his perspective in both kind of like the educational side of it as well as , like you know , I don't say in the streets , but the business side of storytelling and that kind of a thing . And so I , I , I want to kind of give you the floor for a second , kemp . If you could , uh , kind of bring us up to where you are today , maybe share a quick like 45 second story in regards to where you started , in regards to video production and storytelling , to where you landed here now with Ember Scout , just kind of calibrate everyone real quick .
Speaker 2Yeah , I mean the short version is . I never wanted to be a filmmaker , I wanted to be a video game designer , but the reason was that I thought interactive stories are one of the most powerful medium right Like story is so effective for human communication and meaning making . Apply an interactive layer , an agentic layer , on top of that and it's even more powerful . So I was really excited about that . But long story short , that didn't work out . And while I was working at a film school running all the equipment in the edit lab and stuff like that , I was like what am I doing ? Why am I wasting my time chasing something that's not working , when I could tell stories right here , right now with the resources available to me ? So I started pursuing filmmaking from there , got my first freelance client a week later , bopped around a couple of different jobs in higher ed , went to agency world just for a minute and then now for five-ish years I've been independent , either just on my own name or with Ember Scout , making commercial corporate videos for clients .
Speaker 1Gotcha . So what did that feel like ? Going from , I guess , what you're doing before this to that , it sounds like there was kind of a mental , I guess , a realization of I'm doing this , but I recognize that I'm really actually wanting to pursue this . Like was that ?
Speaker 2Yeah , I'd say it's more like a maturing thing right , like we all have that thing that we want when we're kids , yeah , and it's really hard to give that up , and especially in our culture , which we hear like hustle , grind , don't give up , blah , blah , blah , like I think there's a lot of truth to that . But I think part of growing up is realizing that you can't do things in a vacuum , or at least if you aren't so far doing it in a vacuum .
Speaker 2Maybe you can't going forward and looking around assets , what resources you have available to you that are not maybe that thing that you wanted , but also still can scratch that itch . That's what filmmaking was for me , and I think it's so funny . You know so many people . This is their eight , their plan a , not their plan b , but for me this is my plan b was to be a filmmaker . Um , and again , you know I wouldn't say that I'm a , I don't know . It's taken me years to accept the label of filmmaker . Um , right , but because that was not necessarily my intention , I think I sit really clearly in sort of like the marketing value chain and kind of like it . You know , speaking of passions , like that's enabled me to dabble in other areas that being a game designer never would have . So I'm really grateful that you know . You just sort of wake up one Thanksgiving break and you're like well , I should quit the thing that I've been trying to do this instead .
Speaker 2Wow and it's worked out great .
Speaker 1Yeah , man , that's , that's very inspirational . Like for those I know that I can say Failure is inspirational .
Speaker 2Don't forget , give up your dreams . I know that sounds corny , no , no , no . I think there's real value in it , for sure .
Speaker 1I just , I mean , you're , you're in the mix , man . So in the , in the midst of everything social media happening , where everybody is creating and producing everything all the time , it's very difficult to say you know what ? I hear everything that's going on . But this is where I want to put my , my eggs in the basket , and it's . It's hard because there's FOMO everywhere . There's just everybody's doing everything , man . So to be able to say , hey , I understand , this is what I'm doing , but I actually see the desire I have for this , that takes some some . It takes some some gall .
Speaker 2Yeah , we can talk more about that later , maybe because I think the future of the industry is probably within that creator social space . Right , that's actually something that I'm wrestling with right now as a business is saying I mean , even though this is my B career , right , I came up in a world of thriving online video and I think I'm beginning to suspect that thriving online video now is creator led and it's much less brand led . It's much less what we think of as corporate and commercial video production . Um , and so that's that's something that we can talk about for the future of the industry and what the future of storytelling looks like . But , um , yeah , that's . It's funny that you mentioned the social media thing .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , Well , hey , like I said , feel free to share as we go . There's , you know , open form a little bit Cool . So let's kind of dive in a little bit Storytelling For you guys , for you Kemp , for Ember Scout . How do you guys tend to define storytelling when it comes to your craft and what you guys do ?
Speaker 2Yeah , definition of storytelling feels very elusive , right ? I think you alluded to it in your introduction . That story , I'd say , especially in like 2012 to 2018 , that was such a buzzword for the marketing world . Everything is story , story , story , story story and I think it's actually diminished
Exploring the Art of Storytelling
Speaker 2a little bit . I don't think people are as focused on storytelling as storytelling and even then I think the word was a little bit misused but right now I'd say , when we think of story , we think of you know , honestly , a relatively traditional definition Characters undergoing change through a plot , right , so through a series of escalating circumstances toward some sort of catharsis ending . So , at a minimum , a story's got characters , it's got a beginning , middle and end and it's got some kind of change . Um , how we do that , I think , really depends on the context of what we're trying to do . But but I am not one that's going to come and try to rock the boat and be like story . Story is any kind of communication . Story has characters , story has conflict , story has a beginning , middle and end .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , that's a great summary . I think for us with film stories , it's a similar understanding . I think what I try to do even before , even when we're first listening and hearing from the client or hearing from the brand or whoever we're speaking with , it's just being able to identify okay , what's the actual transformation that's happening with this business ? What is it that they're here they're trying to get here , why , like , what is it ? And initially , initially , that's where the videos tend to start .
Speaker 1For me , um , and for some reason with me , maybe it's because I did I initially wanted to go into believe this or not music production .
Speaker 1Uh , back when I was in my undergrad , I wanted to be like the next , like timbaland , like just making music or whatever did did that for a little bit . It was horrible , I didn't want to , I wasn't a fan . But when I think about that , that little beginning to end and how that happens , why that's happening and I tend to think musically first and it adds context to the vision , that is the story . And I think being able to kind of identify and build those muscles and being able to hear from your client , really listen , identifying what their struggle is and identifying how they're , the solution to that is . I mean , that's the foundation for what we do and how we do what it is that we do , which is why things regarding camera gear and production come so far later on , like by that time , I know the client's family , like I know their history , I know where they went to high school , like I . You know there's a . We've invested a good bit of time into it , so I definitely understand that uh well , the tools are the tools , right like .
Speaker 2The tools have never been easier to use or , frankly like , true , what do you , what do you call it uniform , right like you can make something excellent with almost anything now , and that was kind of always the case if you knew what you were doing .
Speaker 2But like there's just not that big of a difference in um , I mean really , from your phone to an alexa camera , right , like yes , of course there is right , yes , of course , but when we right ? Yes , of course , but when we're talking about storytelling , like hey , it still uses an exposure triangle , it's still you know what I mean Like there's still a record button , there's still codecs and formats that you have to think through and whatever .
Speaker 2But like every camera can do those things in slightly different ways , so it's like I don't know . Like , so it's like I don't know . Like the tools are kind of just whatever and they're fun to talk about , right . Like I also have gear acquisition syndrome , I also get excited about the new C80 has me like drooling Gear acquisition syndrome I've never heard of that before .
Speaker 2Oh , you haven't really . Yeah , yeah , yeah , oh , yeah , yeah , I've got it bad . I have pretty good discipline about it , but I've got it bad . I really want new things , but that comes secondary right . The tools are just a means by which we tell the story , and so super fun to talk about , super fun to dream about , but at the end of the day , we can make things on an iPhone right and people are right . People are making really compelling content on iPhones , just fine .
Speaker 1Yeah so .
Speaker 2Absolutely .
Speaker 1Yeah , so I think . So sorry call . So I think , taking a step deeper , when we think of storytelling , there's normally , you know , I like to classify it as like kind of layers to it . There's the story , whether it's like dialogue or , you know , trying to get that story told via somebody speaking , whatever that is . But then there's also being able to portray that into the video , into whatever you're creating . So I think of , like they have dialogue . But there's also , like the way in which you film something .
Speaker 1There's the way in which you add , you know , audio or sound effects or music , you know there's all those cinematic tools , yeah yeah , and that's kind of one of the reasons why I did slash do but more so did weddings for a long time was because weddings are a very tangible way to practice storytelling yes every wedding is beautiful . They're amazing , the venue's amazing , it's breathtaking . But a lot of them are the same and not to take that from anybody , but when you're not your wedding , not whoever's listening to this .
Speaker 1Your wedding is very special yeah , yours is one of a kind there's none , never the best , really , whoever you are a listener yeah , it's out of this world , right , but being able to practice that and and to think about that before you even press record , that is a skill that has to be practiced and you don't just show up and just say , all right , we'll just see what happens like it takes a little bit of of pre-thought to be able to think that through . So for you guys with with storytelling and and ember scout and creating these projects , if you haven't , guys check out their website Ember Scout . The content they have in there is really cool , like the kind of samples they have there , the work that they did , the seamlessness with their story for the most , what makes it seem like the simplest things , I think is a key indicator of great storytelling . A lot of times you can tell you know , films or anything that have to me aren't as great when they try to say or share everything right in front of you and has tons of dialogue and just tons of it and there's no room for imagination or there's no room for you to kind of conclude things your own , but for them , really soft content .
Speaker 1So for you guys , when you're going through that process , maybe what was it like ? I'm going to take a step back because I'm going ahead of myself . What was it like for you guys when you define storytelling , when you first started out , like , what did you think of , what did you do , how did you do it ?
Speaker 1Yeah , that's a good question , and compare that to what it is now . I'm kind of curious .
Speaker 2Yeah , no , that's a really good question Because it has changed , I think ,
Adapting Storytelling in Video Production
Speaker 2pretty significantly . So , yeah , I graduated film school in 2009 . And this is right , as the 5d was coming and like changing everything about video capture and so my program from 2005 to 2009 was really about specializing in a craft , a part of filmmaking , and so in school I was producing and everything that we did in school was narrative , and so learning some specifics around producing narrative films and then screenwriting . I did a good bit of screenwriting in college as well , like every night doing my pages , you know , have a couple of features under my belt , a bunch of shorts , blah , blah , blah .
Speaker 2And so , especially graduating into the film world of 2009 , you know , the early 2010s , where no longer was a producer a thing that someone wanted , at least not in , like Midwestern markets , they wanted a videographer , right , they wanted someone who could handle everything . Midwestern markets , they wanted a videographer , right , they wanted someone who could handle everything . And so I was skillless but really leaned heavily on my screenwriting experience and so I saw things really much more narratively . And so when I got my first job job as a sort of as a single Sorry , let me pause you there , go ahead .
Speaker 1Did you feel like you were at a disadvantage because you were only like you were more so focused on that side rather than on the on-site production ?
Speaker 2okay , yeah , because I narrative is just a different beast , right when you're . When you're right , like when you're telling a story that really is based on characters and drama , and you know , production design is so important and casting is so important , like , all these things that like are also important in corporate and commercial work , obviously , but just not at the entry level scale , right , yeah , um , and I wasn't going to move to hollywood to use that skill set . Right , that's , that was the only place I could go was hollywood . Now , that just wasn't in the cards for me for a variety of reasons . Yeah , um , and so when I got my first job , when I was like the solo video guy doing everything , um , I did feel like , well , how do I even tell a story properly , like , without like you talked about , like characters and dialogue and setup and all these things that are like part of a three act structure ? Um , how do I do that in three minutes or less ? And how do I do that with just this person ?
Speaker 2I worked at a university , the student in the middle of their program . I have no idea how to do this , and so started casting around for like resources online um , one tool that was really helpful for me , then . That I continue to use now is , uh , this they call it . What are they called now ? The science of storytelling ? I think they call themselves now . They were called muse back then .
Speaker 1Yeah , oh well sorry , no , I know of a muse storytelling now , but not back then . Yeah , oh well , sorry , no , I know of a Muse storytelling now , but not back then .
Speaker 2Yeah , I think it's probably the same folks . Science of Storytelling maybe that's one of their classes . They've done some rebranding this is over 10 years ago now , okay , but I found their resources really helpful for simplifying my knowledge of story that was based in writer's journey save the cat , robert McKee kind of stuff , and distilling that down into something simpler . You know , I still have I don't know if it's going to rack focus , but like Nope , nope , I still have Robert McKee's book back there , right , because that that is still probably the second most powerful book I've ever read . Um , but it's really hard to apply those principles in three minutes or less , and so using some of those Muse principles was really helpful to sort of pull things in deeper to the , to the actual work that I was doing , that I was being asked to do at that time . And then since then , yeah , we've got a variety of tools and frameworks that we sort of like , on a per project basis , bolt on to understand what the client needs or what the project needs or whatever .
Speaker 1Yeah , okay , so that when that transitioning was happening , that was right after you finished school or that was during slash ?
Speaker 2It was a few years later , so it was transitioning from you know , pursuing video games whatever that looked like into being , you know , trying to pursue filmmaking Right pursuing video games whatever that looked like into being , you know , trying to pursue filmmaking Right and really like my . The best I had at that moment was you know , my schoolwork right . That was the most experience I'd had in . Storytelling was just what I did in school , so it was very much like , okay , how do I professionalize this ? How do I refine what I think I'm still good at , but refine it through a lens and a framework that's more applicable to short form content or to the marketing funnel more generally ?
Speaker 1Yeah , okay . So with where you are now , do you like ? In my head I see that as a plus and kind of started off on what a lot of videographers tend to deem . No , I'm not doing that , I just want to film or I just want to , you know , hold the camera , kind of a thing . But now , with the mentality you have , you've built Ember Scout to do just that , like to have your aspect of it , but to bring on the right people to kind of help you know that's right .
Speaker 2And you know , I'd say most of the people I've met in this industry , I mean they do want to be storytellers .
Speaker 2Right , they got into this to be storytellers and maybe they have a passion for a particular tool , like sound or cinematography , or production , design or whatever . But that's why they're here ultimately is to be a good storyteller . And the people that we tend to work with on our high level stuff right , because I think you know we can talk about that if you want to but , like there's a range of work that we do , and when we work on our highest level stuff , like , yeah , my cinematographers are asking me , like what's the story ? What's the scene about ? What is the transformation in this moment ? How do we capture that the best Using their skill set , their , their you know , their imagination to augment that fully . Obviously we're still like controlling , directing , producing , whatever , like the big picture stuff . But , um , I try to bring on people who really do care about that , who understand that this isn't just holding a camera , right , that every , every motion has meaning , and , uh , people who know how to use that tool really well .
Speaker 1Right , yeah , and I think that kind of goes to the next thought of how have we seen the process of storytelling change from I mean you mentioned , 2012 to 2018 . Yeah , say maybe slightly before that to now , um , because for us , you know , we've we've gone from when I first started post , uh , undergrad , so that's 20 2013
Evolving Role of Video Production
Speaker 1. Um , I was specifically focused on the , the interview . Like , yeah , I need to nail this interview . I need to think preemptively , get the great questions , try to get the heartfelt response , depending on the project , try to get a tear , you know , like , like , really trying to totally back down and now , like you're saying , it's this all encompassing , um , beyond just the dialogue and information ?
Speaker 1How do we actually create something where it connects with our audience and it's not something that takes an hour and a half to watch ? You know , yeah , from your perspective , like , how have you seen that change from your eyes ?
Speaker 2Yeah , it's hard to say from a , like , a global sense , what's changed , because my sense of that has , you know , so myopic , just limited to like what I've known , what I've seen , absolutely .
Speaker 2That has you know , so myopic , just limited to like what I've known , what I've seen Absolutely . But I'd say that I have changed because I used to think very , maybe similar to what you're saying is like , oh , it's all about this moment , right , and I found that , yes , it is sort of , but I can't do my best work in that moment unless I do a lot more . Right , like , you're talking about dialogue and camera motion and production design , like , to me , that's all at the top of the building , right , that's nowhere near the foundation . That's , those are the tools that we use to express the story , but the story is built on much deeper foundations , especially when you're doing work for a commercial or corporate or brand kind of stuff . And so we really start our storytelling process with a really deep dive with our clients about strategy , like marketing strategy , about , like , who is your audience ? Where is this being distributed ? What KPIs do we need to meet or exceed ? Right , Like , what are we actually trying to do with this video ?
Speaker 1And so KPIs ? What does that mean ? Thank you .
Speaker 2Thank you . Key performance indicators . Video is a tool in the marketing funnel right .
Speaker 1Video is a tool to do something .
Speaker 2What you mean , it's not like everything , it's not right Sometimes . No , in fact , I don't wish it wasn't right . I actually really like working with clients . I like the restriction of being a participant in something more than just storytelling . Storytelling is an unaltered good on its own . I deeply believe that that is one of my deepest values is like well , a well-told story is a self-evident good , but I don't want to make movies for Hollywood . That's their job , right ? Like I do want to help people obtain business objectives , and so , starting from like what are those objectives ? What are what are those numbers ? What are those things ? What are the goals ?
Speaker 2beyond , let's make a thing absolutely um , that's a key part of our story discovery process , and then from there , we .
Speaker 1I'm sorry , I'm sorry , yeah , no , no , those in , sorry For those in the back , for those in the back , I want to like that's , that's super key . Like there was a part of my career where I didn't have that vision , like there was no recognition of you are much more beyond the Canon 5D Mark II that you're holding in your hand , and the story is as well . And to be able to start before that and say hey , before we press record , like where are you guys at ? Like what are you guys trying to pursue ? What are the things that actually makes this project a win for you guys ?
Speaker 1Like let's start there first before we get into all , right , let's film , let's talk about your story . Like , let's talk about who you are , like what is that ? And even just taking the time to do that changes and calibrates the rest of the project . Like that there's , there's not a going around it . And then start like that is the start , right , that's right , that's , that's so , that's so tough . Man , that's a great point that you made and I just wanted to make sure that , well , that's our .
Speaker 2That's so tough man , that's a great point that you made , and I just wanted to make sure that , well , that's our real value , right , like in the marketplace , is we make business objectives happen . Yeah , if we lose sight of that , we are not going to be able to position ourselves in a way that gets us more work . And so , by starting with what is the thing that we're trying to do really , we put ourselves , we humble ourselves and say like , okay , that vision is more important than mine . Everything we do is in service to that goal and ultimately , it lays the foundation for more work where we can say like , oh , I help you know , my projects help them build their follower count from this to that . Or we help this guy close a million dollar deal because of the stories or the videos that we created . That's to me , that's all of it , right , yeah , and is the reason why I keep trying to market and connect with smart marketers who know how to use videos because like .
Speaker 2I . I've made a lot of videos that just sit on websites and they don't do anything , and then is it the video's fault .
Speaker 1I don't think so yeah , anyway , the truth comes out . Oh man , that's right . That's right , that's that's tough , that's tough . But that is a great point , man , I think , and it's it's hard Some it's to take responsibility for that . It's like , well , we made it for the company , Like they need to do that right and that is right , but that's something that we're working on .
Speaker 2Figuring out is like how do we offer better strategy ?
Speaker 1How do we ?
Speaker 2offer better . You know that kind of stuff , because if a tree falls in the woods , right . If a video is never seen , what's it for ? The eyeballs matter more than the video itself , which is , I think , again to what I was alluding to earlier where the market is shifting . Quality is going down , video quality has maybe never been worse , but performance is going up because the production value doesn't matter . It's how you get eyeballs , that's what matters , full stop . If you can't get eyeballs , there's no reason to make it . Yeah , um and so that's what I'm seeing . That's one of the big shifts in the market that I'm seeing now is a shift towards that creator style tech talk kind of stuff . Not to say there's not a place for more cinematic , but right now there's more demand for shot on your phone than there is for shot on your Alexa , unless you're , like , at the highest tiers of production .
Speaker 1Right yeah .
Speaker 2Anyway , that's a . That's a little aside .
Speaker 1I mean it's true and , like you're saying earlier , I think that's as you , I think you mentioned that earlier as well that's , that's where we're heading , like that's . I mean , you know , new iPhone just came out not too long ago and it's continuing to work on bridging that gap between the freaking DSLR frame rate .
Speaker 2Maybe I could use an iPhone if you'd give me a steady frame rate . Apple , oh , you hear me .
Speaker 1But they're bridging the gap slowly but surely and people are using it and developing their own content and , like you're saying , it's not these huge sets of production , it's the person with the phone in a well lit , by a well lit window that's created a strategy to be able to create content consistently in their version of it and be able to reach those that it needs to reach to target , like you're saying , their performance . So I agree , now there is still a desire and a need for production . There is . There are the high-end kind of things , but also companies that are really wanting those flagship promotional pieces that are website standing , that really say this is who we are . I don't think that's the way either . That's right . It's really a I don't want to say it's a wild , wild west , but it's definitely getting shaken up a good bit .
Speaker 2Something's shifting A hundred percent . It is not the wild west , but it might be the industrial revolution , yeah , yeah , yeah , you know what I mean . Like , especially , the metaphor extends because of AI , right , sometimes I feel I didn't experiment earlier this year where I felt very much like , uh , john henry , where I had ai build me 10 clips off of an interview , kind of like this like a podcast style thing , yeah , and I could use two of them , like two of them I thought were good enough yeah and that took me about an hour and then about an hour and a half I built 10 that I liked right that .
Speaker 2So I was still faster , I was still better than the ai , but not much longer , right so I think . I think we are very much in the industrial revolution when it comes to advertising marketing . Uh , we're in the early stages of that , where there's a lot of disruption , a lot of uncertainty , and that means that our clients are more uncertain than ever as well , which ?
Speaker 2is I think we're falling back on some of these uh , for lack of a better term more eternal storytelling values does still make some sense , but it's more important than ever that we understand the principle behind it versus the execution of it . Right , it's more important that we understand that a three-act structure is really about set up , action and payoff than about 15 pages , 30 pages , 15 pages or whatever . Um , these things are good to have as rules of thumb , but the more we can understand about the psychology of storytelling , why it works , instead of that it works , I think the more persuasive we can be with our clients . Um , cause , story continues to be valuable if we abstract it further and further . Right , uh , to understand the why behind it .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah . Well , let's talk about that a little bit .
Speaker 2Um .
Speaker 1I want to go through a little bit of an example of what it's like for you guys in developing that for someone . So let's kind of pretend a little bit . You know . If you want to take the lead on what the process would be like if you had an inquiry , come in for whatever , if you want to give an example and just again focusing on how you go about developing what a story could look like this isn't to put you too much on the pressure , but I am curious just what that's like , and for our listeners as well . Just kind of .
Speaker 2Yeah , happy to . I think I can give some examples , maybe along the way Cool , some of which I can't . Yeah , let me get started with you . Yeah , hey , easy
Developing Video Storytelling Strategies
Speaker 2. So it starts with a strategy thing . Right , we always start with strategy as far as audience distribution , business purpose , like what's our real objective ? And again , those key performance indicators . What are the numbers that we're trying to change ?
Speaker 1And that's usually .
Speaker 2Yeah , audience objective and distribution , because distribution really matters .
Speaker 1Right . Objective of the content Right Gotcha Right .
Speaker 2And distribution is one that was , like I didn't used to think it mattered and , like we talked about earlier , like the eyeballs are kind of all that matters , and so knowing what the distribution strategy is , where it's going to go , what platforms or whatever , what the distribution strategy is , where it's going to go , what platforms or whatever that gives us an indication of , like what kind of story we can tell or what kinds of things we can get out of this .
Speaker 1So less , less about format and more about how you would create .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , I mean both . Right , there's a , there's a technical . We have a page in our deck called where I say that filmmaking is both creative and technical , right , like , both things are part of this . And so , yeah , if I , if we know that you're going on Tik TOK , that's going to mean certain things about what we shoot and how we shoot it , but it's also going to mean certain things about what's the style of the video . Right , like , it's probably going to look a little bit more Tik TOK-y . Right , a little bit more creator led a little bit more Tik Toky . Right , a little bit more creator led a little bit more low production value . If we know it's going to go on your website , that means something different .
Speaker 2I'm working on a project right now that , for lack of that , is going to have a captive audience , right , and so I don't have to make the beginning as hooky as I normally might . I can let it sit , I can let the story build um , which , when we're talking to world of online stuff , I can't Um , and so that distribution thing is a really key piece to understand . You know your , your technical limitations and then your creative options . I think Um , but after that conversation , sometimes that's in like early discovery , like first conversation . Sometimes it's after sale . We have more of that conversation because maybe there's some more or less leadership for us to do in that area . Um , but eventually we start developing a creative treatment , just like a lot of places . Right , we'll put a treatment together for the , for the video , uh , and that's where we present a couple things . One is what I call audience transformation , okay , and this is probably cobbled together from a bunch of different people and that's where we present a couple things .
Speaker 1One is what I call audience transformation .
Speaker 2Okay , and this is probably cobbled together from a bunch of different people . I don't think it's like one guy's book or whatever , but we use this framework of do think no feel Okay .
Speaker 1Do think , no feel .
Speaker 2Do think , no , feel . Because ultimately we want the audience to do something . To do something , they have to have thoughts , they have to think a thought . To have that thought they probably have to know something , some kind of fact , some kind of like input , and before they're willing to pay attention to any of that stuff , they have to feel something . And so it sort of goes in that it's sort of an inverse order of importance . But then we flip it . When we start doing development , ultimately we're trying to get them to do something , but when we're doing creative development , we have to start with how do we make them feel something ? And so we document that for our clients . We start with what do we want them to do , and then we walk backwards to how do we want to make them feel .
Speaker 1So that eventually , through that process , they do the thing , whether that's click the link , sign up for the newsletter , whatever .
Speaker 2And this is the treatments for you guys is normally presented like on a deck or is it like a ?
Speaker 1Okay cool , yep , a deck Interesting ?
Speaker 2Okay , yep , I'll do a little walkthrough video like I'm in the room , don Draper style , but no one wants to do that anymore , so it's part of a PDF . Click this thing Cool .
Speaker 2I like it man , I PDF click this thing , you know Cool , I like it , man , I like it . Yeah , it's helpful . Uh , with that , though , we want to present the concept right , cause we haven't even gotten to the creative yet . That's still just part of audience transformation strategy . And so then we want to step into like , what is the concept ? Um and that's where I start borrowing a little bit more from Robert McKee and others , like screenwriting techniques . That's where we start talking about like , what's the controlling idea ? What's the central dramatic question ?
Speaker 1What's the like central thesis , to the spot , Using those big , big video words , man , big video words .
Speaker 2I do . I cause you know higher ed background . I don't know it got beat into me enough that it's like no , you're good , Just a quick one-liner for each one of those .
Speaker 1Just trying to keep . I'm trying to keep up with you as good . Just a quick one liner for each one of those . Yeah , Trying to keep , I'm trying to keep up with you as well .
Speaker 2Yeah , no , it's totally fine . Yeah , so controlling idea is like it's like a concept . What is in just a couple of words ? What are we trying to do here ? Um , sometimes that's like a . That's what we build it off of and that's more like a conceptual build . Sometimes we will build it around a dramatic question . So you know , every chick flick in the world is will they , won't they ? Sometimes clients will let us get away with that as well , right , not will they , won't they ? But what we did a project for a technology integrator is what they're called . They help warehouses build , install and maintain the technological infrastructure for order fulfillment .
Speaker 1Okay .
Speaker 2And they let us do a story that was a little bit more about the dramatic question , which was like how's this going to end up ? We came in and started recording this , you know , started capturing the story . Midway through the project , things were going badly . The relationship between our client and their client was not so great , and so establishing that conflict early on meant that in the audience's mind there is a little bit of like this is brave for advertising , how's this gonna end up ? How is this gonna end up ? Glorifying the client ? Right , because , like , we all know it's gonna end there . So how is it gonna get there ? Yeah , um , you Same thing with Marvel movies , right , we all know the good guys are going to end . But the central dramatic question is a little bit like but how ? And then the last one that sometimes I'll deploy to is just like , what's the central thesis ? What are we trying to prove ? Right now ? I'd say the documentary that I'm finishing up this week , which is out now somewhere .
Speaker 1You people that are listening , by the time you're listening to this it'll be out .
Speaker 2But it's built a little bit more on that central thesis Like , what are we trying to prove ? And in this film we're trying to prove that a bicycle is more than just a way of getting around , it really is agency , it's choice , it is empowerment , and we set that up in the first 20 seconds of the film , hoping that by the end you've held on to see that proven out . And so for a client , these three things and I use them sort of interchangeably or all together or whatever these three things kind of they help build the rhetorical framework for the story that we're telling , right , the messaging framework that then we can use our , our cinematic tools to do those to , to affect that change , to tell that story , to move that message a little bit . Um , and that's where we start asking questions about story structure . And this is where I use , like the muse pillars , the science of storytelling pillars . I use that quite a bit in this phase , um , just cause they're simple and they're widely applicable to content of a variety of sizes . And so that's people place purpose and plot , um , and that's again , it's just been a really helpful framework .
Speaker 2Even in a 32nd video you still have a character . You still have a message , you still put it somewhere , right , there's a place , there's some kind of like tangibleness to it , uh , and there's still a plot , there's still things like beginning , middle and end , right , things move and change , yeah . And so by identifying those four pillars , that helps us even , like , build the story even more tightly . And even then then , then now we can ask the deeper , you know the even more deep questions about like , okay now , who's our character ? What do they want ? What's in their way , what's at stake , what's the conflict ?
Speaker 2You know those kinds of things . So it really is . I find it helpful and this is the big thing , when you sent me some prompts that I felt like I could share is like it's so easy to get lost when you're storytelling , quote , unquote that having a framework can be so helpful . I sometimes even forget to use my own frameworks because I'm like , oh , I just need to meet the client . I got to help them do the thing .
Speaker 2Oh , I don't know , what ideas do I have ? How do I do this ? But then I'm like okay , start from the beginning , start at the beginning , force myself to step through this step-by-step , and by the end I have a really clear picture of what we were trying to accomplish .
Speaker 1So got it . Well , let me , let me , let me vomit this back to you and see if this is making sense and for the people that are listening , take notes . Good luck everybody .
Speaker 2I hope this is helpful everyone .
Speaker 1I don't know .
Speaker 2Email me . We can talk more . You said you wanted to talk about storytelling . Here's how I do it .
Speaker 1I love it . I love it . So , initially , we're talking about the early discovery process , identifying the audience outcome and the distribution possibilities for that business that they're wanting to put the content on the creative treatment , where we're identifying the audience transformation do think , know , feel . Starting off with do going to feel In order to do something . I need to think something . In order to think something , I have to know something . In order to know something , I need to think something or think something kind of know something and so on .
Speaker 1So it's the order to know something kind of feel something , and I think that's a great process of thinking and I can see why you would flip that when you're conceptualizing .
Speaker 2Because really what we're asking is how do we then start that feeling up , right ?
Speaker 1Exactly , exactly Later on .
Speaker 2we can figure out how to put in whatever data , info , whatever . Oftentimes that's the kludgy stuff . At the end it's the call to action , but that feeling ultimately , people only do things because they feel .
Speaker 1That's it . I'm still going through it , but just breaking even that creative treatment side of it . If we're starting with feel , when you're at that point now you think about okay , how do I invoke the feeling that we want them to feel in a scene where I'm not saying , oh , I woke up and my back hurts and I don't know what I should do . Man , this feels not good . How do we invoke the emotion without them saying all that and actually prescribe ?
Speaker 2As we're asking that question . Like you , like your process , I'm kind of similar . Like you say what , how do I make people feel ? Well , music , yeah , right , like , okay , let's like , let's like jump on art list and find some reference tracks like um , that's , that's huge . Like you can already , at that stage , start thinking about the tools that you will deploy cinematic tools , right , music shot , color design these things absolutely , so that's great .
Speaker 1Um , and then going to the concept part of it and the controlling idea , what are we trying to do here ? Will they , won't day ? I think that's funny when you said that's chick flick , uh , because when you said , I was like that's exactly what it is , it's the whole thing is like when they won't , they fall back in like that's exactly what it is . It's just the whole thing is like when they fall back in love . That's right is it gonna happen ?
Speaker 2oh man , I don't know . He doesn't know that this was a bet .
Speaker 1She doesn't know yeah , she lost her memory . He didn't . Will they get back in love or will she hate him ? Yeah , I am quoting a movie with Channing Tatum and Rachel McAdams that just came to mind .
Speaker 2No judgment here . My go-to is how to Lose a Guy in 10 Days .
Speaker 1You know , Cinematic masterpiece . Exactly , but how I think that's the other one you're mentioning . And then what are we trying to prove ? The example you shared with your documentary with the bike is a better way to get around . It's not just what did you say A bike is a better way to get around . It's not just what do you say A bike is not just a bike .
Speaker 2It's not just a way to get around . It is a way of giving someone agency control choice .
Speaker 1Yeah , absolutely yeah
Crafting a Consistent Storytelling Framework
Speaker 1. And then just the story structure here people purpose .
Speaker 2Yeah , all that stuff that's more classic , right , but you know , I just come back to like jumping straight into that stuff . You just don't know . Sometimes , yeah , right , you just don't know . And so , and especially when we're talking about what do you say ? I'll say commercial filmmaking , by which I mean corporate commercial , whatever things for clients . Um , you know , we , we have to ground everything in the outcome and you know , otherwise we're just being frou-frou . So by starting all the way back at the outcome , we can create characters that are really going to be meaningful , hopefully , for that outcome .
Speaker 1Absolutely , yeah , yeah , and I think being able to , like you're saying it can be overwhelming and I think an encouragement that I would , if anyone is listening hopefully somebody's listening to this but , uh , the encouragement is be able to take a piece of this at a time and fully like , invest your mental capacity into each section this part of me is like man , I'm kind of curious what happens if I try to focus on a project and practice each section , like with intent and I'm not trying to save the entire world in a day I just want to start with okay , how do I actually , how do I build the early discovery into my process ?
Speaker 1How do I take what's been shared ? I hear all that , but I need to bring that into something that I'm creating myself , where I'm not like talking and presenting for three hours and I'm not like trying to reinvent the wheel , but I want to make sure that I'm actually serving my client well , like what does that look like ? And I think that can , like we're saying , easily translate into after creating that , all right , how do we create some kind of content that is to the point , it hits you in the fields , it has a call to action and we're actually able to kind of systemize something here . It's definitely possible , regardless if it's a flagship video or if it's a quick TikTok , like it's definitely possible . I think this is a solid foundation for sure .
Speaker 2And that's my encouragement to people is like storytelling , it's easy to people . Is like storytelling it's it's easy , even still . You know to be like structure is just copying stories or whatever . Right like just makes it samey stuff , and I just don't think that's true . Right like having a framework allows us , especially in a commercial environment , to channel our creativity in ways that are useful for the marketplace . And having that framework means you're not going to just get lost in the morass of all the infinity ideas that are out there . You really start narrowing it so that you can be creative with what is left .
Speaker 2And so that's what my big encouragement to people is like think about your approach . Having a standard storytelling approach is going to not only make you less crazy inside of a project , it's going to increase your regularity of delivery . Right , it's going to raise the floor , might shrink the ceiling a little bit maybe , but like that , professionalism is about consistency . Bit maybe , but like that , professionalism is about consistency . And having a framework created by you that you believe in , that you uh have developed yourself or whatever , at least allows you to create that consistent , consistently good body of work that serves clients and gets you more work afterwards yep , and that's what changes it from a hobby to a business .
Speaker 1Anyone's wondering that's sorry if I heard some feelings there , but that's you know that's good part of it . It has to be systemized . It has to be something that's repeatable , um , and becomes more and more repeatable as you grow and scale . That's right . You're going to be serving more people . Uh , so , absolutely so , absolutely , yeah , great stuff , man . Um , I you know what's your , what's your encouragement to any videographer starting to get into it and trying to get better at their craft and storytelling ? Um , how do you encourage somebody , um , this kind of stuff ?
Speaker 2in this world . Do reps just like you said with like weddings , right , do reps get . Try to do as much as you possibly can .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2Um , while you're sort of developing your voice and your framework , um , and then , yeah , like , build a little storytelling framework for yourself , choose one , you know , go save the cat , go whatever right ? Like , pick your favorite guru and do that for a while . Um , and do your best to apply it to the work that you do , whether that's for a client or for yourself yourself , so that you can develop that sort of like professional consistency in what you do . Yeah , I think that would be my big encouragement to folks .
Speaker 1I agree . I got nothing to add to that . I'd say the same exact thing man , put some reps in , get that muscle memory going . Break the muscle memory , adjust it , refine it , keep pushing forward . Seek some reps in . Get that muscle memory going . Break the muscle memory , adjust it , refine it , keep pushing forward . Seek some wise counsel . You know , like some people that's in a safety zone Say , hey , man , what do you think about this ? Hit up Kemp . Say , hey , I made this cat saving video , like you said , what do you think You'll ?
Speaker 2have like 30 like snyder , but yeah awesome sweet .
Speaker 1Um , thank you so much for taking the time . Kemp , like this is really , I mean , for myself , like this is very informative , very helpful . Um , I , I enjoy it , man . I see things that I can definitely think about myself and , I'll say , even for our storytelling process , a lot of it does fall . There's some similarities on here . There's some details that I've never even heard about , but when it comes to being able to kind of start with what we want people to do and going to what we want them to feel , that's like in the transformational piece of the meetings we have with our clients as well . So I love that there's a little bit of a Yep , that's right .
Speaker 2And like none of us are reinventing the wheel here . Yeah , exactly , it's just the wheel that we're all dressing up in different language or whatever . Right , like that's all it is , because story is this universal human thing . But anyway , I'm not going to give it a soapbox . Thanks for having me on . No , you'm sure Happy to talk shop with anybody at any time .
Speaker 1Yep , awesome . Well , thank you so much for the time , kemp . Thank you guys for listening . Until next time . You guys have a great one . We'll talk soon . Thanks , bye . Bye , we did it .
