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Music Credits:
https://twitter.com/RoomInEight
Follow the hosts:
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https://twitter.com/Klutch_NFT
Follow the pod:
https://twitter.com/NorCalandKlutch
Music Credits:
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Onboarding with Mintface and JMP
[00:00:34] Klutch: Well, hey everyone, Happy Friday. Uh, it seems like we have got past all of our technical difficulties this time, which is great. Um, I guess we can start with doing some introductions. Uh, most of you know, Kel and I already, so I will just let, uh, John, Michael, or Midface go who wants to go first? I can
[00:01:01] JMP: start, um, for once you know French, will we start before the people from, um, so good afternoon, good morning, good evening everyone.
[00:01:12] JMP: Uh, I'm
[00:01:17] JMP: pronounce I'm French. There's Paris, uh, part of the management team of Ledger for years now, and literally obviously a crypto security company that must be do hardware and software for crypto currencies and, and ndc. And I would say for the past three years I've been actively, uh, collecting NFD and NF and um, I guess, you know, I'm kind of, uh, in the best position I could ever imagine my life, which is like I'm doing tech, I like and I'm doing tech for the kind of assets that I believe the most in, which is art and cultural in general.
[00:01:58] JMP: So what? That's me.
[00:02:00] Klutch: Thank you. Uh, and sorry for calling you John. Michael. John Che. Should I try to do the French a little better?
[00:02:09] JMP: Sing best? Yeah. Sing, Sing. John Michelle Best? Yeah.
[00:02:12] Klutch: Okay. Uh, Midface.
[00:02:16] MintFace: Gm. Gm. Good to see everyone in the audience. Lots of bases I recognize there. Um, yeah. My name's Mint Place, AKA Ryan.
[00:02:25] MintFace: Uh, serial creator in Web three. I, um, enjoy creating with the tools as soon as they kind of get built and like to noodle on how that can be productized and commercialized into something that can be of value, both to artists, collectors, but ultimately, uh, brands and our larger multinationals. That's my background, um, in, you know, connecting up.
[00:02:58] MintFace: Uh, large institutions in a way that can create and unlock new sources of value. So that's, um, that's been a nutshell. Thank you. So
[00:03:10] Klutch: yeah, this show we wanna do is about onboarding. And, uh, we, we wanted to invite these two guys because one is obviously, you know, at Ledger and really big part of, um, everybody's safety and he understands the tech quite a bit.
[00:03:27] Klutch: And Mint face after I didn't know him, I didn't know him personally up until a few weeks ago, but, uh, Nortel introduced me to him and it was, I just real, I, I learned he was like basically one of the best educators in the space and I didn't know that yet. So, uh, unfortunately my Twitter algorithm never introduced me to him yet.
[00:03:46] Klutch: But diving into his profile was very interesting. And, and then we, we started thinking about what is onboarding, right? And so I, the first thing I want to do is I want to define it. Because I know a few weeks ago, uh, great, great, Mando did a tweet talking about how Rug Radio helps on board. And, and my initial thought was like, really?
[00:04:06] Klutch: Cuz in my mind it was, is onboarding bringing new people in the space? And that's what I was thinking at the time. But the more I dove into it, the more I realized, well, it's not maybe necessarily that it could be educating people. And if you think about onboarding, when you get a new job, that's basically what it is, right?
[00:04:24] Klutch: You've been accepted to the company, you've been hired, and now the onboarding process is educating you on your, on your job duties and whatever. But for the sake of the show, I think maybe we should think of it more like a, a SAS company would where they, they try to think of basically, let me see, how do I explain this?
[00:04:49] Klutch: They try to think of how do. How do we get new customers? So they think of customer acquisition and so we, we wanna think of how do we acquire new artists and new collectors and new tech people, another space? And then how do we retain them and also educate them along the way. So would you guys all say that as, are you guys all comfortable discussing that?
[00:05:13] Klutch: Like all three of those? Or, or do you think onboarding is purely educational? Or how
[00:05:17] JMP: do you guys feel about it?
[00:05:23] JMP: Start I take, go for Michelle. No, no, no, because I started the first one. Maybe we can each the time, you know, the one that started the previous one. Uh, let the, the second one it be easier I guess. So this one you, you take it then I can take it after. Ok, sure.
[00:05:42] MintFace: Sure. So like my view on onboarding is if we are asking people to stop what they're currently doing, whatever that is in their current life or behavior, then it's gonna be a, a big ask and a heavy lift.
[00:05:57] MintFace: Technology when it works its best is sitting in the background and allows people to do more of what they already do without having to stop what they currently do. So for example, if you already go and get a coffee from a Starbucks and now you've got some type of art reward and the technology is working in the background, you're still enjoying your coffee every day.
[00:06:20] MintFace: But if we're asking them to stop going to the coffee shop and start buying art, instead we we're asking them to change part of their belief systems and identity. And that's where real friction comes in. So I, I really, I think I'd define onboarding in three different levels. Uh, first someone that is offered an NFT and can accept it.
[00:06:42] MintFace: So basically they have a wallet set up. Level two would be that they searched out a particular NFT work or otherwise, and they saw that they could buy it and they bought it. So that level two is that they've got Ethereum or some type of currency in their wallet. And then level three, which is where most of them now, is someone that's created an nft, listed it for sale.
[00:07:09] MintFace: And that's really showing us that that person has something to say and uses NFT as the delivery layer in order to communicate that thing they are saying. Uh, and just like the, you know, the initial web, um, 90% of people when we were asking them to onboard with Netscape and Yahoo, what we wanted them to do was connect with a dialup modem and read something online, right?
[00:07:37] MintFace: And I think that basic level for NFTs is being able accept an NF that's priority is do you get wallets, people's, uh, phones and ledges into hands in way that feel seamless with them just gonna pick up their coffee and they use this as a way of redeeming something.
[00:08:06] MintFace: And I like very
[00:08:07] JMP: much what you, what you just said, um, in terms of onboarding, I think that, you know, everything you, you said is making, you know, total sense. Um, what I could say agree is, uh, it's actually the duty of everybody in that, uh, space. Everybody that know, uh, how to buy an nfd. And if each of us, we, you know, um, regularly, we onboard and we help a friend or a friend of a friend, uh, getting onboard into NFD is.
[00:08:37] JMP: Actually at the end of the day, that will probably, you know, generate uh, hundred and then thousands and then eventually millions of people if we, if we do that right, because there's a lot of friction in the onboarding into nfd, as you totally correctly said. Um, you know, the first thing to do is to create a wallet.
[00:08:57] JMP: Uh, and then the also, um, there's a friction on that. Usually you need to, you know, an account, an exchange or something, decide
[00:09:10] JMP: you, you connect platform and say, I've been doing that a lot, uh, especially between the spring two and 21 until the, probably the fall, uh, of the same year. So basically a year. Uh, I spent most of my weekend onboarding friends that were collectors, uh, traditional art collectors or uh, artists. Um, and it took me most of the time, like one hour and a half, uh, if not more, because I had to do everything with them.
[00:09:43] JMP: And specifically, you know, most of them were entering to NFP without having in crypto. And basically that means that you need to do everything with them. And yes, it takes a bit of time. We are very early and the technology in is, and uh, that's basically ledger on professional side of that reduce very early and, you know, that the progress to be made in that.
[00:10:10] JMP: So again, I think that, you know, onboarding is key, but we all have a, a place and a, and a role to play in that. Um, because, you know, one that is basically onboarding five friends or 10 friends and. Each of those friends are embodying five or 10 friends that will quickly become a very, uh, big community that will be embodying 20.
[00:10:33] JMP: Right. So I do
[00:10:35] NorCal: agree with that, that, uh, it does take time and is gonna take, you know, a little bit here and there of working with your friends and doing that. Um, so I mean, do you believe, like, part of it is smoothing out that process? The, the, the friction. Um, what ideas do you guys have like at, at Ledger, um, that's gonna smooth that out or make it easier?
[00:11:03] NorCal: Make it frictionless? Frictionless.
[00:11:06] JMP: That's, um, you know, I don't know. I, we'll make it frictionless. What we are working right now on is more like trying to reduce the. To make things a little bit easy, easier, um, and specifically working on, you know, enabling the, um, capability of users to OnRamp more easily.
[00:11:28] JMP: That's one thing. Uh, but before that actually, because when you start with onboarding into nfs, we need to your wallet and to create wallet and basically there is always a 20 world that is a bit difficult to understand for most of the newcomers. Uh, and also because with the new, with thing, sorry devices that we have to upload it, the nano family with just two buttons that can limit the ability to, you know, to type the, to type the 24 words, review them, et cetera.
[00:11:57] JMP: So we are always working on that, improving the UI and the January, also the, the ux, um, and you know, I think it'll be small steps, uh, that will, uh, do every month or something on the software side and probably that at some point. Uh, we get with, uh, a more, uh, steep, uh, kind of progress by probably, you know, designing different form of hardware wallet so that they are probably much more easier to use, uh, from, um, you know, non-tech savvy people.
[00:12:34] JMP: I would say that's kind of high level, and so I could give at that, at that time of, of the year. But, you know, maybe that, uh, we'd have mores to come in the, the next month. Right, right.
[00:12:44] NorCal: Like, I mean, I know I feel like there was like a Android, a small company that made like a, a built in, um, wallet into a phone.
[00:12:55] NorCal: I think that something along those lines maybe, but I still don't like tying your phone with it. Um, men face. Do you have any potential, uh, suggestions beyond a wallet?
[00:13:10] MintFace: Yeah, I mean, In terms of the, the friction that is preventing mass onboarding, we all know that when you remove it, adoption, purely barriers in the morning and at our phones and it unlocks right? That face ID has removed all sorts of friction at a physiological level. And until our hardware wallets, uh, can be at parity with that level of very reduction, at least for daily transactions, then it's at a disadvantage to the status quo.
[00:13:54] MintFace: Like, I love Ledger and I love, you know, treasure and, but using those properties, it takes me 14 clicks, right? To make one transaction unlock the wallet. And then do the transaction, whereas Apple, with face id, you just look at your phone. So at some point
[00:14:16] MintFace: would be what users want and someone we'd just like to look at ours. That's not for everything, uh, in Web three. But again, I'd take a tiered approach to security where for transactions under a certain amount, you can look at your hardware wallet for transactions up to a particular amount that you set.
[00:14:43] MintFace: You need a single button and it's it's blind signing. But then above that, uh, you do exactly what is currently implemented on ledger, um, which is you take the time, you breathe in and out, you tap the buttons, and you go through the process of transferring a token.
[00:15:07] MintFace: Nice.
[00:15:07] NorCal: I like that. I like, uh, I, I do agree with that. I think like the different levels of security and wallet set up is, is definitely part of the future. Um, I mean, like most of us have like a wallet that you don't care about too much and you met with it and you transfer to something more secure Now in terms of like, um, where we are in the adoption cycle, um, like for me, when I first kind of had the aha, I was like, man, this reminds me of like early Bitcoin, like early, like 2013, 14.
[00:15:45] NorCal: Um, where do you guys feel it lands on that time scale? Um,
[00:15:50] MintFace: mid.
[00:15:54] MintFace: I wasn't around in the theme then, uh, I was external to it. I, I ran my own media agency and I remember being approached by someone in tech saying, Hey, you should get into and after some initial research, my response was, Look, I don't think it'll be good for brand. It seen as a hack as paradise spammer, uh, drug dealing kind of dark web space, and I don't wanna be associated with it.
[00:16:21] MintFace: I think that's evolved Now, uh, there are big, uh, brands specifically within finance, like, uh, Fidelity who are, who, who see this as part of a portfolio. But in terms of going back to that, uh, how do you get mass adoption and friction? Um, there's a, I mean, you know, this Kel, the, the technology life cycle there is a, a gap and it's called a chasm.
[00:16:48] MintFace: Between early adopters and innovators, which everyone in the audience here, and I can see plenty of you, Christopher and Cam Ila, you know, you're on the, you're the vanguard of this movement and that makes you an early adopter innovator. But to get real volume and to get a mass adoption, you need to move over that chasm into the early majority.
[00:17:11] MintFace: And the early majority is misunderstood. People think it's about we just need mass. It's, it's not necessarily that. Uh, and that kinda the metaphor way of thinking about it is, again, going back to that coffee shop. You might enjoy coffee, but the person who you, that coffee, if you go to a decent kinda barista, um, they're searching and hunting down single origin, they're doing overnight cold brews.
[00:17:37] MintFace: They're sort, searching out like crazy blend. From Ethiopia or particular altitude. They're basically doing what everyone in this audience is doing right now for art, right? But when you get your copy, that barista's not asking you to go on that deep technical journey about flavor profiles. Cause they do all that for you.
[00:18:01] MintFace: And all you need to say is like a, So that's where we need to get to in order for people to join. And I wouldn't say it's the current space. I think the current space and its currents for early adopters and innovators, we need to build a new space where early majority says, Oh yeah, I can hang out there because I already do that type of thing, whatever that thing is.
[00:18:27] MintFace: Games, films, entertainment, communication, uh, all of those things that currently do, they shouldn't, just happens. Toned, decentralized, tokenized,
[00:18:49] MintFace: complimenting to
[00:18:51] JMP: what just said. I would say that getting back to the, you know, to the question in terms of where we stand in terms of, uh, adoption, more doing parallel with Bitcoin adoption, I tend to believe that we are probably around two. Um, and this is based on, you know, actual figure. Uh, that's, we kind estimate, guesstimate because obviously as you know, in, in crypto, general speaking public or change, it's very difficult to have the proper number of users.
[00:19:20] JMP: It's more like how many wallets and, and basically you try to derive from that number of wallets. Or users or platforms and or exchanges. And then you say, Okay, maybe if I do the math correctly and a bit of simulation, I can end up with a certain number of, you know, unique users with 10. My kinda own computation, that's not the company that's only mine, um, is roughly, let's say less than 2 million people in the world.
[00:19:46] JMP: Own NFD is right now 2 million, so that's very, very small. That's probably equivalent to Bitcoin in 1314. And actually that's also why, you know, it's, uh, so early. That's why we are so early and you know, at the end of the day it's just the beginning. So I'm not surprised. And actually I have a lot of that probably, uh, you know, ed it figure by 10 or 100 quite easily in the next five to 10 years.
[00:20:20] JMP: So I like those
[00:20:21] NorCal: metrics. Is there, How would you d determine that we were succeeding? Like, is there a way you think, or would you start measuring like minting versus collecting or transferring, um, to like determine artists, collectors and then looking at volumes or is unique wallets? What, what's the ultimate decider?
[00:20:48] NorCal: John, Michael, John, Michelle. No
[00:20:51] JMP: worries. Um, yeah, I think it, and I'm biased, uh, over there because obviously I'm focused on the, and, and mostly one on one, even though I, I take some sometimes, but, um, you know, if you look at the art market or even the, the print market, uh, in their business, there's, there's not so much liquidity I would say.
[00:21:12] JMP: You know, it's, um, you don't, when you buy a painting, you usually don't, don't sell it the other day, right? You keep it five, 10 years, sometimes more. So obviously, uh, because technology brings a lot of velocity, uh, and assets that are digitalized, whatever they are, you know, whether it's money, whether it's stocks, whether it's anything, uh, it goes quickly, more quickly.
[00:21:33] JMP: Um, you know, and the velocity, you know, grow grows a lot. Um, so for me it's difficult to answer that question in a way that, uh, you know, I, I'm not sure that the, the traditional of the capacity, uh, are, are, are the proper one to see if it's or not. I would rely on yes. Uh, kind, uh, number of that are, you know, buying and that are holding N FDS in a way.
[00:22:02] JMP: Um, because my kind of take on that, and I know that you guys are, be on the same page as me, is I tend to believe that we have a very, very high level of quality on the side of the, so very great, great. Uh, and quantity. Uh, and I tend to believe that we lack, uh, the quality and the quantity on the side. So we are great collectors, uh, but not enough, uh, in comparison to the number of great that we have with very, like when you into a, a disc attack and you have a kind of unbalance between one gender and the other, uh, and basically, uh, you know, I think we are in this situation right now
[00:22:50] Klutch: that that's interesting. Uh, can you guys, by the way Yes, we good. I got again, so now I know why the radio guys are always talking about themselves getting this Twitter spaces is always broken. Uh, anyway, I, I heard, and I caught up that you guys were talking about, um, how do we measure it, right? Artist churn.
[00:23:17] Klutch: What, how do we know we're growing the space, et cetera. And I saw it tweet the other day that really, uh, grabbed my attention. It was by, uh, I don't want Tim Ov, I think that's how you say it. And it was a photography thread and it was talking about how 10 artists make up 72% of photography sales on super air.
[00:23:38] Klutch: And then the next 20 earned seven, uh, Ethereum in the last three months. And it also said that the top 25 collectors made up 85% of the sales and that a quarter of the sales were female. So I look at stats like that and I just think, Wow, we are like, we need more people like it. And this is, that's, those stats are just not good.
[00:24:05] Klutch: And I get it, We're in a bear market, so it kind of makes some sense. Right. But, but I just keep coming back to. How do we just onboard more people? Like how do we get them here and, and what do we do to do that? So, so what do you guys think? Yeah. How, how do you think we get more artists or more collectors?
[00:24:30] Klutch: Like, what, what, what your ideas at me. Let see what you got.
[00:24:35] MintFace: I think, and this is probably spicy point of view, I, I think that the answer is not to try and get more artists and collectors, because that happened in 2020 and we have got to where we're almost like when you, you know, when a, a tribe runs out food, you don't reduce how much everyone eats.
[00:24:55] MintFace: You actually go to new frontiers looking for more food, Right? Where has the cheese moved to? And the great thing here is this frontier. We can just go back and look at where we've come from and then web two. There's a, there's a great stat that says 2 million creators already making six figures a year by Warner ge, influencer marketing hub, like two millions, making six figures a year.
[00:25:21] MintFace: If everyone in the audience here was making six figures a year from their, by creating and selling to their audience, I think we'd all be pretty happy. So the challenges creating the conditions where those 2 million creators through web two that are on TikTok, YouTube, and so on, decide to onboard their audience because they wanna have tease as part of their content creation.
[00:25:48] MintFace: Right. And Gary V began this in early 20, and we saw like the, that, uh, and right when I, up, which long time
[00:26:03] MintFace: we wanted to astron. Kids now want be YouTubers, right? So there's this aspirational class to that is coming through. There is a group of two millions already making six figures a year. What's missing is obviously there isn't the compelling reason or event for those creators to switch or at least augment what they currently offer their audience and how they currently get paid with an NT tokenized centric model.
[00:26:36] MintFace: But that's the opportunity, that's the size of the
[00:26:44] MintFace: ok.
[00:26:45] Klutch: John, Michelle, do you have anything like to add?
[00:26:49] JMP: Well, no, not for this one actually, but would probably continue later.
[00:26:55] Klutch: Okay. Then, then I will, I would like to go to, um, a podcast I listened to recently. It was, it was, Patrick O'S podcast. It was called Invest Like the Best. Uh, it was very interesting. It was talking about onboarding and, and it was, uh, very much geared around gaming.
[00:27:19] Klutch: But uh, I'd like to first start with an audio clip. So here we go. Not that one .
[00:27:28] NorCal: Yeah, and that's the point. It's like, why wouldn't you want an
[00:27:31] MintFace: army of people making memes
[00:27:34] NorCal: online all day using your stuff as profile pictures, promoting the things that you do? Because like, look, the biggest problem in video games is that 99% of them fail.
[00:27:46] NorCal: 99%. It's probably worse than that. I'm free to play. It's probably like 99.9%. And the number one reason why they fail is
[00:27:55] MintFace: because nobody knows about them. That's the number one reason why
[00:27:59] NorCal: nobody ever hears about them. They're not good at marketing. They don't have any money. It's not differentiated enough.
[00:28:05] MintFace: And it could be like
[00:28:06] NorCal: a great game if you played it. You're like, Oh, I like this game. But it just never takes off. That's what happens to almost every
[00:28:12] MintFace: game. But literally 99% games come.
[00:28:15] NorCal: So why wouldn't
[00:28:15] MintFace: you want to take some of your in game assets,
[00:28:19] NorCal: give them away for free, Rally a community around a developer, have them waiting for you.
[00:28:26] NorCal: Whatever it is that you do have the people
[00:28:29] MintFace: who didn't get for free asking for the next thing that's free. Cause there's a ring of those people too that are just like, I wish I would've got was you do it again. Just get everybody excited
[00:28:38] NorCal: about what you're doing. Frankly, that's the hardest part
[00:28:41] MintFace: about making a game, getting anybody to even care about which, and
[00:28:45] NorCal: that's why Free to
[00:28:46] MintFace: Own is going to destroy, Free to play.
[00:28:50] MintFace: So
[00:28:50] Klutch: basically what he was trying to say here is that he thinks we should give away NFTs. And that will be the onboarding thing. And that was his plan for, for gaming, right? Because gaming is hard. You got all those, all those games that are in your phone that people can play and they're free, and then they want you to buy in game purchases or whatever.
[00:29:14] Klutch: Um, but, but how do you get 'em? How do you get their attention, right? So, and then how do you get them into web three? And so his whole idea was maybe we're going about it wrong. We're trying to extract NFT people out of the crypto market at the moment, right? Like, like you look at all the big whales, or a lot of the big whales, let's say.
[00:29:36] Klutch: And so many of them were crypto whales. They, they were early adopters of crypto, and now they got, you know, just tens of millions of dollars. And art became a fun hobby that they got into and started collecting. But that's a very, very small, you know, segment of society. So how do we target the masses? And Gabriel in that, in that thing, he was basically trying to say, you know, like, we're, we just gotta go the other way.
[00:30:05] Klutch: We gotta give people free, free assets in his thing, being in game assets, and then maybe they'll come play. What do you guys think of that? What if we try to reverse it? We, we give away more free nfps to get people on board. I like the
[00:30:22] JMP: idea a lot. I actually, I think that, you know, it's a, it's a very good idea.
[00:30:29] JMP: Uh, it always commit from with the same, which is, you know, how you drop ANF to something, to someone that doesn't have any wallet. So there's probably, um, kinda shortcut that can be taken from a technical angle and maybe it'll go for certain of time through centralized kinda platform like bank or something that would drop his client.
[00:30:56] JMP: Uh, so many of these. Uh, that would enable a conversion of a portion of those people afterwards into, you know, a wallet to create a wallet. And then wallet,
[00:31:10] JMP: like,
[00:31:16] Klutch: Well, well then let me ask you, uh, John, uh, actually I got another clip. Let me do one more clip and it, since you brought up wallets, I think this is very topical. They won't
[00:31:27] MintFace: get E first. They're gonna ft first. They'll need a wallet still. They're gonna make a wallet still, but they're not gonna get E first.
[00:31:33] MintFace: They're gonna get ant first and then
[00:31:35] NorCal: could turn into, That's where
[00:31:37] MintFace: they're actually gonna get their first seat from. Oh, fascinating.
[00:31:40] NorCal: From the nft. All right. That's very
[00:31:42] MintFace: interesting. Reverse the order. Yeah, reverse the order. The
[00:31:46] NorCal: NFT has no
[00:31:46] MintFace: value.
[00:31:47] Klutch: It costs zero to make heat has value, but I can
[00:31:50] MintFace: still turn that
[00:31:51] NorCal: nft.
[00:31:52] NorCal: If it's managed properly. Does that make sense? So the world's gonna get
[00:31:57] MintFace: from an N and they're gonna get NFP for free. So wallet
[00:32:00] NorCal: seems like the key technology then. Yeah. The thing that's holding everything back is mobile wallets. It's Apples
[00:32:07] MintFace: wallets, it's Google Pay
[00:32:10] NorCal: wallet once Ethereum gets integrated into that wallet.
[00:32:15] NorCal: So instant
[00:32:16] MintFace: adoption worldwide.
[00:32:19] Klutch: So what, what do you think of that, John? Because that's like, that's kind of where I'm thinking this is going personally. And, and you, you're, you're in the hardware wallet space, so I, I imagine you thought about these things more than just
[00:32:32] MintFace: about any of us.
[00:32:41] MintFace: I think you're getting ragged a little bit. Dejo Michelle. Yeah, I think so too.
[00:32:51] JMP: Companies, Apple and Google, they don't have the, um, the DNA of, of being a FinTech payment, even though they are now. Uh, and for crypto and NFT specifically, I think there's always a question of, you know, non, So would they be inclined to play the role of your bank of, I dunno. You know, it's a good question.
[00:33:13] JMP: If they, if they are, you know, ready to do that with all the risks, all the risks that, you know, lies behind boss from a regulatory and from a technical, and then that could drive, you know, wider adoption. So that's actually why, um, you know, attention, we are not afraid of, uh, you know, these things in case it would happen.
[00:33:35] JMP: I tend to believe that it would not happen, you know, in the very short term for different reasons. Mostly re. Uh, but it might happen. And then we, we see, because again, they would probably play bank and then that, So
[00:33:56] JMP: what we are doing, obviously we wallets what we did in the beginning, but we are doing also a source's, just the fact that we tend to believe that the only way to actually, uh, assets that are value is, uh, there always need to be an hardware and component in that. Again, I think that maybe in the Fisher we will try to find solutions to make, you know, um, simpler solution that would, uh, you know, enable people just as, as you said guys before, like you've got a wallet that is a software mobile wallet that you just use for, you know, certain kind of transaction and then you.
[00:34:40] JMP: You automatically, uh, opt in for your hardware wallet so that you not taking too much risk with your asset. So that's a wrong answer, but uh, you know, fully kinda provide a bit of guidance on that.
[00:34:54] Klutch: Uh, thanks Jpi. We, we did get rugged a little bit from your initial, the beginning of your response, so we probably missed like your first 20 seconds, just so you know, as shit
[00:35:08] Klutch: So, so if you could, um, do you remember what you said in the beginning? Because do you think like Google Play and Apple Wallet will be like a potential
[00:35:18] JMP: thing? Like, Yeah. Well, what I was saying at the top is that I tend to believe that they will not do it, uh, in the short term and the short term being the next two to years.
[00:35:28] JMP: Uh, and the reason being that, uh, you know, doing a wallet for crypto or for NFT implied to get into a very complex. Burst from a regulatory and from a technical slash security and goal. And I'm not sure they're ready to take that risk for now. Uh, because they, to really be, uh, you know, kinda nft, uh, wallet, they would probably need to go to study.
[00:35:55] JMP: So they would need to study the assets of their clients on their VR or also act basically as a bank, uh, for them. Uh, and again, I don't, I don't think they, they're ready to do that.
[00:36:07] Klutch: Okay. That's fair. Uh, min what do you think? I've seen you've done tons of videos on an educational things about how to use wallets properly.
[00:36:18] Klutch: Uh, but like, if we're gonna get the masses on one thing I always like to say, cause I'm in web two, right? And I have graphic designers who work for me and they, once in a while, they like to get a little adventurous and make things a little too complicated cuz they think it looks cool, right? And I always have to remind them, you know, The main thing you gotta do in web two is you gotta gram your website.
[00:36:41] Klutch: If, if your grandma can't work it , that's not good. It's gotta be that simple. And obviously we're not there yet with Web three. So what do you think in face,
[00:36:53] MintFace: We'd like to go back to your initial question and when you posted that audio clip, I think entities are a good idea, but they're a tactic. They're not a strategy.
[00:37:07] MintFace: A strategy is doing the full. And what I mean by that is how do you give the solution to someone who's never been in way three to be up and running without the one and a half to two hours of onboarding that, you know, it took John Michelle to onboard someone. It's just too long. So I go back to, well, how did this work for the internet?
[00:37:31] MintFace: Right? Like, how did we onboard people? Cause that's my background is like, we rolled out 20,000 kilometers of survivor optic across Europe, connected 13 countries, eight languages. And then we had this big question, which is, okay, now what? Okay, we've got this network, what do we run across it? Uh, why don't we start with stock exchanges, right?
[00:37:52] MintFace: Because they need to be digitized. There's a lot of paper. And then you move to flight and then you to keep through niches. So we're not win the mainstream in one go. It's gonna niche by niche. Back to question of how do you bundle this whole thing together? Um, Yahoo did it really well initially, or I think it was AOL in the US where they sent out a CD to you and said, You can log into the internet, you can dial up with this.
[00:38:22] MintFace: So they gave you the, the hardware. Most importantly, they actually gave you a reason to log in. It was a game that you could play and that gave people an incentive, like, I wanna play this game. Right? So I think the free NFT is a tactic, not a strategy. We need to think about what is the thing we'd really giving people where NFTs is the delivery layer.
[00:38:44] MintFace: Are we giving them a sense of connection, a feeling of belonging, some way of contributing, uh, a place for personal growth, whatever those kinda core human identity things are with NFTs as the layer. Uh, I think that's gonna be the winner. And to, to kind of endorse John Michelle's point. I agree. I don't think Google or Apple has any really compelling need to shift from their, uh, their mass of credit cards that they, numbers that they have, uh, aggregated and securely store.
[00:39:16] MintFace: So it's gonna be a third party, it's gonna be a contender that wants to change the game. Uh, and I don't think it'll be them sending a preft. I believe it'll be a full, where you can be aird a wallet and, and then permission to convert that into either money that can be used to be spent, or you can redeem it for something physical.
[00:39:43] MintFace: It might be a hardware wallet or it might be something else. And that will create this, um, mass adoption event within a particular vertical. Not across everything, but it might just be, you know, people that listen to, for example, or it
[00:40:05] MintFace: lovely by corporates will go, Hey, that worked for that company. How do we copy and paste that with our products and services?
[00:40:18] MintFace: Interesting what you just
[00:40:18] JMP: said, . We know offline.
[00:40:23] NorCal: Yeah, I like that. I like those ideas. Is uh, it's a, a good way to think about it. Now. Where do you guys envision this space being in five years? If we are successful and start working through this, uh, mid
[00:40:38] MintFace: face,
[00:40:41] MintFace: It will have to be completely different. Um, It reminds me of like when the iPhone launched and Steve Jobs did this great track of showing everything in one device, but yet some of the fundamental features weren't there. You couldn't copy and paste. Imagine that, like you couldn't copy and paste on an iPhone when it was launched.
[00:41:02] MintFace: And a lot of web tech is like that. Now. Some of the things we, we just expect really, there's
[00:41:21] MintFace: engaging with our desire or human's ability into flick scroll. They've created an entity Native canvas for, um, at least for artists and collectors now, but eventually it'll be for everyone, right? You'll be endlessly scrolling Decca looking for your next Bumble or Tinder date in five years time. I have no doubt of that.
[00:41:44] MintFace: And that you'll be able to look through their, what they like, uh, based on what they own digitally, you'll be able to look at their hobbies and know that those are true hobbies because of their apps. Um, so I can see Decca becoming dating or, um, becoming a festival search engine. I think others have even a, a higher kind, um, uphill ramp likes of on cyber, I think is a yet to proven use case.
[00:42:14] MintFace: No one at the moment, at least in Facebook, YouTube is spending any time 3D worlds. And so I don't think human behavior knows how to endlessly. Uh, but I think there's an opportunity there for maybe not a metaverse, but maybe 10,000 micros to built to brands by artists and
[00:42:41] MintFace: people a. Of what it's like to be immersed in a 3D environment about something that they like. So if we're to be successful in five years, there will have been enough compelling use cases in a 3D environment that it is a common that spend our online time. And I think the 2D endless scroll of web two will have shifted across to web three.
[00:43:14] MintFace: So
[00:43:15] Klutch: you think we're just gonna like endlessly walk through meta versus
[00:43:20] MintFace: I think that's unproven yet. I don't think that use case. I think the on cyber technology is great and there are some others like spatial, but I don't think it's proven that we're, that there is a pathway yet. Sees out endlessly walking through 3D spaces. I, I definitely think it'll happen in manufacturing and industry pharmacy, uh, in, um, places where you role play to get good at something maybe like sales or it's high risk like, um, plane maintenance or jumping out of a plane.
[00:43:55] MintFace: You know, I think the wheel, lots of edge cases, which is, which will be compelling, but I don't think we will be endlessly walking through metaverses at a consumer level, um, outside gaming unless we have 10,000 experiments. And so if brands and artists and collectors are part of that, creating those 10,000 different micro verses, then, then maybe it becomes something that humans do.
[00:44:23] MintFace: But it's not proven. I, I don't think. Sure. Uh, most of
[00:44:27] Klutch: our audience at the moment is artists and collectors, right. So, What do you guys think is gonna happen with platforms like Foundation? Obviously in recent times we've gone to, uh, aggregators like Jim and Jeanie. Uh, you guys are both collectors. Where, where do you guys see us in five years with platforms?
[00:44:51] Klutch: Uh, John, Michelle. Well, that's,
[00:44:55] JMP: you know, that's always tough to, to come up with this kinda, uh, you know, forecast. But, um, previous kind of, um, you know, patterns in, of, you know, new assets like, you know, MP free, uh, or new way to, to consume certain experience. I would say, whether it's, you know, talk brokerage or even dating actually, um, mostly follow what we call alo.
[00:45:22] JMP: Uh, and the power lo is when actually you have a, a few players that dominate 80% of the markets. And then you've got the 20 remaining, 20% remaining that are, you know, long take for a lot of small players. Uh, I think very small market share, but, uh, you know, that wouldn't surprise me if we end up in that situation.
[00:45:41] JMP: So again, four or five players, uh, kind of getting the, the, the lion share and, and then the rest playing certain niche. Um, and actually that's already what we see right now in the market in a way. Um, but obviously, you know, because the, the current market conditions is probably tough and most of the platforms, uh, are mostly based on trading and listing, uh, revenues, obviously trading actually.
[00:46:07] JMP: So that means that if you don't buy or trade you, you don't have any revenues. So, you know, obviously liquidity, um, you know, is a key component of the business right now. So yeah, we might end up in a, a couple of difficult situations for some platforms in the, the next 12 months, uh, if the market doesn't bounce back.
[00:46:29] Klutch: What do you think Min face? Do you think, uh, there's gonna be any changes with how these platforms operate? I've heard some people say, Yeah, I've heard a lot of artists say that platforms offer, you know, damn near zero support , which definitely seems like the case quite often. Uh, how do you think these guys are gonna differentiate themselves and compete against each other to improve their, their, their competitive position in the space in five years?
[00:47:00] MintFace: I, I'd agree with John that they, um, you know, we are already seeing that they power laws at play. I think there'll be the eBay three. It's looking like open sea currently. I dunno what that'll be in five years. Uh, there'll also be the high end exclusive. Currently it's super rare. Who knows what it'll be in five years.
[00:47:22] MintFace: There's all the other players, right? The other marketplaces that aren't super rare and aren't open sea. So where does that leave them? And the third route in technology adoption, at least that I would consider if I was the product manager, uh, at one of those marketplaces, is to my offering, right? And what I mean by that is, uh, like when Uber came out, they their own app, but there's a whole lot of cost with being your own app.
[00:47:48] MintFace: You have to get people to it. You have to them. Whereas what Uber did was really smart was and become just a feature on other people's apps. Like an airline app, right? So you, the airline, you, you leave to the terminal, you're thinking, Well, where do I go? You've just been opening your airline app to get you where you wanted to get to.
[00:48:10] MintFace: And there's an called, which is actually just a feature now. So I think you gonna see within where three like super. Or it's equivalent becomes a feature on the website of Gucci. So you can get a web three checkout that's super rare branded. Uh, and I think that's an obvious play for those that, that don't have the, the volume, uh, to on their own.
[00:48:41] MintFace: Um, but I think it'll come outta their field. I think it'll, it may be something like Gem or it may be a completely new marketplace that doesn't exist right now that comes in and does that, and if they do it for something like, uh, or, or festivals and suddenly there's all of this volume there. I think we'll see these crazy situations where, where artists actually shift off artist centric platforms and into other verticalized niche platforms because there's volume and liquidity of audience there.
[00:49:21] MintFace: Nice. I like
[00:49:22] NorCal: those lots. That's some good things to think about. Now we're in this, um, decentralized space. Um, how do we maintain that ethos while syncing to onboard the masses? Um, is there a good way to maintain our decentralization, to keep, you know, I guess either governments or big companies from taking over?
[00:49:46] NorCal: Any suggestions or ideas? Uh, let's go with John, Michael, Michelle.
[00:50:03] NorCal: If we lose
[00:50:03] JMP: maybe mid face, Do you have a
[00:50:11] Klutch: there? Yeah, I'm, I'm.
[00:50:16] JMP: Did you hear his question? No, unfortunately. Like a full blank for 30 seconds. Ah,
[00:50:22] NorCal: uh, we're in this decentralized space. Is there a way you, uh, have suggested or thoughts on, but
[00:50:30] JMP: I'm in the room and I can probably hear you now.
[00:50:34] NorCal: Do you have ways or, uh, uh, ideas on maintaining decentralization and keeping it that way while adopting the masses without potentially governments or big corpse getting in the way
[00:50:57] Klutch: getting road here? Can
[00:51:00] MintFace: you hear us, Sean?
[00:51:04] MintFace: I don't think I can jump in while Michelle's, uh, Looking at connection issues. I think on the, on the side of ethos, decentralization, it's a question who owns ethos
[00:51:21] MintFace: chasers and innovators deeply about decentralization? I don't think that ideology will be cared about by the masses or should we want or need them to. But if it's something that is core to why, why we're in this space, then it into how you build. Right. And you know, I come back to this thought around the metaverse is a metaverse decentralized?
[00:51:49] MintFace: Probably not. Cause there's just one of them. So is it better to have 10,000 micro verses than one metaverse? Cause I think corporates always look at how do you bundle because there's value in bundling and there's also value in unbundling. So if decentralized matters to anyone in the audience here, um, as an early adopter, it what you are building and give yourself options and a level artist decentralized, the listed, you can't make sure you're in, you know, more than one group.
[00:52:27] MintFace: I kind of hop around between the 6, 5, 9 group, but I'm also, uh, and I've also got my own min community. There's decentralization on layers, but I question around how do maintain it for the masses. I don't think you can force the ideology. All you can do is make it into derails of the underlying technology so that mainstream doesn't need to care.
[00:52:54] MintFace: They just automatically become decentralized in this ecosystem.
[00:53:02] MintFace: Yeah, that makes
[00:53:02] Klutch: sense. Cause when you think about it, 99% of the stuff we, the masses use on a day to day basis is like 100% centralized. Right. . So it'll be an uphill battle.
[00:53:16] Klutch: John, Michelle, can you hear us? Yeah. Yes, I
[00:53:18] JMP: can now for at least the next 30 seconds of pretty, uh, but actually, I mean, main face, I said it, you know. Totally right. And I've got nothing more to add. I think that this is definitely, you know, um, something that will take years, uh, for people to understand, uh, uh, and probably that some events will happen that will kind of trigger larger adoption of the ization ethos.
[00:53:45] JMP: Um, at the same time, I must say that it's also a generational topic. Um, and in a way I've always been amazed by the ability of the younger generation. Immediately cut and get, uh, our new app or new technology works. Uh, that's, you know, very, very interesting when you, when you put, uh, you know, anything crypto or ft you know, in front of a 30 13 years old, uh, you know, girl or, or, or boy, uh, they must be gay actually.
[00:54:16] JMP: And if you do the same with very smart bankers of 50 or 60 years old, that's probably not the same. So I think, I think that the plasticity somehow of the, of the brain of the younger generation will probably, even though centralization, fully ization, might not go mainstream, you know, in the next two years, I wish and hope it'll really be, uh, embedded in a way that it would be mass adapted at some point.
[00:54:51] Klutch: At the end of every episode, we like to do a thing called Hot Takes. So I don't know if you guys have any prepared, but I'd like to move into that right now.
[00:55:09] Klutch: So either of you guys listen to our show and do you have any hot takes yet or would you like me to go first? Please go first. Okay, so I got some Fire Hot takes and it starts with my good friend Jacob Tweeted Yesterday a pest friend was asking me how to list NPS on foundation. They are getting started in web in this space and web three and didn't understand lots of it.
[00:55:34] Klutch: I just wrote out three pages on how to get started, what to use, safety tips, et cetera. I'll say it again, Make Web three easier to use. Holy, F, c, K, and. I just think that is so true. So everybody likes to talk about Web three is the new thing and it's awesome and all this stuff, but you know what? I'm a web two guy and I'm gonna defend us and I'm gonna say Web three devs as a whole can't hold a candle to Web two devs yet.
[00:56:06] Klutch: Uh, and let's be honest, right? You don't see the masses of devs leaving Google and Facebook yet to go run to Web three. It's still a very, very small space. So, and I, I would like, I would also add, if you go to archive.org and you go look at websites from say, 10, 15 years ago and compare 'em to today, you'll see they all totally suck.
[00:56:31] Klutch: So my hot take is everything right now as you see it pretty much sucks , and I hope we get better quickly cause we can learn a lot of lessons from what Web two went through. And there are a lot of developers in web two that can help us learn those lessons, whether it be on user experience, uh, uni, user interfaces, et cetera.
[00:56:53] Klutch: You can look at meta mask in particular, right? It's very confusing. It's gotten a little better recently in how it describes stuff. Um, but I, I dove into meta aask a little bit and I wanted to see who was the founders. And I was very shocked to learn. The founders were from Apple. Apple is like the king of companies that is about user experience.
[00:57:16] Klutch: So why is there user experience still pretty much garbage? That, that's my question, right? Like, it doesn't make any sense. Why isn't there a NBE button for new users that maybe auto enables something after you install it, that you cannot sign a request for approval to set approval for all on multiple contracts.
[00:57:41] Klutch: Maybe we should do that and protect all the board AP owners, you know, board ape owners, right? Like, like, this is, this is crazy. And then at the end of the day, NorCal just asked about centralization and decentralization. And I know our ethos until now has been let's, we gotta keep the decentralization, to be honest, I think we need to have both.
[00:58:05] Klutch: I think it has to have both, because we are never gonna be able to onboard our grandmas in this current mar in this current techno technological state. It's just terrible. It needs to improve, Maybe it needs to be centralized wallets with, uh, like a, like a bank, right. Where they, they will, you know, have insurance up to 250 k worth of your NFPS or something.
[00:58:30] Klutch: I dunno. But we need, we need some huge advancements in technology. Because all the current stuff is pretty much garbage. What do you guys think of that?
[00:58:44] JMP: Yes, I think I said you're not wrong. I don't disagree. Uh, I haves on what you said. One macro level and one level macro level. You know? Um, there are still very, a lot of smart guys, you know, uh, entering the web free or crypto world or world, you know, for the past 2, 3, 4 years.
[00:59:07] JMP: And those guys eventually, you know, are pretty working on stuff that, on that we don't know. And they will find solution, uh, that are today's and frictions. So that's the, the first ever. Um, I think to that, that, you know, I've been around for a couple of decades now in, in the tech and I've experienced very closely what happened in the web one and what happened in the web one.
[00:59:32] JMP: What actually we had the.com bubble. That was not very good for stock investors, but very, very good for tech because basically because of this.com bubble, we had a lot of funding coming into the market and a lot of companies got lot of funding, uh, directly or indirectly from that. Um, and Google did sell A or B during the center of 2020 and, sorry, and basically that gave them the dry port for, you know, the next two to three years to develop everything they did.
[01:00:04] JMP: That they really enabled them not to win a penny for two or three years before they end up finding their business model that is now the one that they are still working on. So there's always a, a funding topic that, you know, makes it, you know, at some point, uh, with two or three years of , I would say we'll see a lot of, you know, new features, new companies, new solutions that will all work on this adoption and reducing the friction, I'm sure of it.
[01:00:34] JMP: And whether it'll be at the micro level, macro meaning like, you know, working on the wallet, working on onboarding, working on all those things, but also working on, on some kind of features as as said earlier, like a special feature. And actually we came up with a couple of very good idea for, for, for entrepreneurs over there, which is, okay, let's work on a special features on a smart contract that enable that you cannot, uh, give certain authorization to the smart contract of your, so that you don't give the right to, uh, you know, to a potential or whatever.
[01:01:09] JMP: So there's a lot of things that will happen next two to three years. A lot of teams, you know, big teams, small teams, we don't really come up with great products, great platform, great solution, great product, enabling technology. Uh, and that's something that I'm pretty sure of and hopefully I, you know, that's also something that I'm trying to promote myself on the side.
[01:01:30] JMP: Uh, obviously within Ledger we are working hard and you know, we are now. 800 trying to work every day on improving everything. Uh, but obviously we, we can't do anything ourself and, and we, we tend to believe that people on the side and project on the side will also do very good things on that front. So I, I'm very optimistic on that.
[01:01:50] Klutch: Thank you. How about you, You have anything about, you have anything to say about my thoughts or do you have any hots? Yeah,
[01:02:00] MintFace: I've
[01:02:12] MintFace: artists
[01:02:16] MintFace: hot is that it's not enough in this current space for artists to simp or collectors to simply collect. And what I mean by that, There's a massive opportunity on the horizon with a, a new presentation layer. It's not Twitter, it's not a marketplace, but it's around 3D and immersion, and it's something that Web two doesn't have at all.
[01:02:46] MintFace: And then layer on top of that, Apples going to launch vr. It's, it's
[01:03:11] MintFace: or end collectors that aren't building 3D environments are missing a massive opportunity. Be ready for that moment where Apple launches vr. Create your own micro experience. You know, your art, your building, your people. I'm building 10 K residents geo and pretty significant hand in, in helping six, five build environment.
[01:03:39] MintFace: What would recommend to
[01:03:45] MintFace: for that moment and have some 3D emotion world that's centered around the things you care about.
[01:03:56] Klutch: So you think Apple's gonna run with it? Huh? You don't Cause of meta, like, let's be honest, meta's pounding tons of money into this thing right now. Like it is insane. Right? And I think my, uh, my good friend artifact had a tweet thread like a month or so ago just talking about just the scale of the money, right?
[01:04:14] Klutch: It is so much money that they are throwing at
[01:04:16] MintFace: this money can't solve it. I mean, this, this happens time and time again. In 1998, I launched MP. Player business importing them to New Zealand. And the competition was between MP Man and Rio. And we knew we had a limited window because we knew Sony was gonna come out with an MP3 player that was gonna beat the, and didn't and lost it and lost in one with the ipo.
[01:04:42] MintFace: This will come out of lift field and blow meta outta the water They're trying to solve with money what you need to solve with constraint and creativity. And that's where mass incumbents usually go off the rails. I don't think this is one that meta can easily win. Uh, and I also think that Apple, they're innovative because they're never first.
[01:05:02] MintFace: Right? They look at what others do and learn from their mistakes that we deeply looking at Oculus and looking at where it's gone wrong and working out, how do they solve that? Well, that is
[01:05:15] Klutch: a, a heart take. I will say that. How about you? Uh, Nor Call or Sean, either of you guys have a hot take. You would like to.
[01:05:25] Klutch: I don't, but that was
[01:05:26] NorCal: a solid one.
[01:05:27] JMP: Maybe. No county. You have got some? I don't have any.
[01:05:31] NorCal: I am, uh, blank
[01:05:33] MintFace: this
[01:05:33] Klutch: week. That's all right. I didn't have one last week.
[01:05:39] JMP: Is John, you have one or no? No, I don't. I don't, but I learned a lot actually. And I, I definitely, um, you know, the, the sound was broken on a couple of visions.
[01:05:49] JMP: Uh, but I, um, you know, I'm definitely looking forward to, uh, taking offline a couple of discussion with, uh, mid face because there's a very interesting thing that he said about, you know, product features and stuff. And I, I like to continue that
[01:06:01] MintFace: discussion of fun. Happy to chat. John. Michelle, this has been great, um, being a guest on here with you.
[01:06:08] MintFace: Thank you. Thanks.
[01:06:10] Klutch: Yeah, thank you both, man. Uh, it was really educational. It was a little of a deeper dive and some technical stuff that we, that we normally go, but it's, I feel like it's needed and I think we all need to figure these things out cuz it's like, you know, we're all hoping to obviously have some financial gain out of the space it seems like.
[01:06:30] Klutch: Right. So how do we do that? Well, we're the early adopters, we're the people who bought Bitcoin in 2013, in my opinion. So, but we just gotta onboard
[01:06:40] JMP: the people now. We we do, and actually, as I was saying at the start of this conversation is also that we have a kinda duty to involve more people, but we also have a collective duty to also find some friends around us, uh, to also work on the tech solution.
[01:06:55] JMP: And, and exactly the same thing that we said earlier. It is features the products, the technology and everything. So on that specifically, you know, beyond the artist and the correct, and if you know anybody. That are working on trying to solve those problems, you know, that they can reach out to face and I, and maybe that we need to create kinda, I dunno think, tank or group of thinking about that.
[01:07:19] JMP: And you know, there's, there's also lot of things that will improved by technology. I'm a strong in technology, in progress through technology. So yeah, I am very confident and, and optimistic in getting the future
[01:07:31] Klutch: appropriate, generally speaking. I agree. I mean, if we could just imagine if we just improved user experience and security, like even 25%, it would be a huge, huge improvement.
[01:07:45] Klutch: Right. Uh, nor Kelly, you have anything you wanna add?
[01:07:50] NorCal: No, I, I really enjoyed this space. I really appreciate John Michelle and been face for coming on and spending,
[01:07:58] JMP: uh, he's on the same wifi as me,
[01:08:00] MintFace: apparently
[01:08:02] NorCal: and spending time with us. Uh, appreciate it. And, um,
[01:08:06] Klutch: Yeah, that's it. Well, thanks everyone. Thanks for listening.
[01:08:11] Klutch: We hope you all have a great weekend. We will try to get this podcast up on, uh, the podcast player, uh, soon. Will I hoping, uh, should we, should we go, Should we out Let's out. Let's it
[01:08:30] MintFace: North Allen Clutch Stain. Know up on the show that's Keeping New Rail, all about the art. No Time. Show day hundred first so you know the deal. Show some respect to the Dope Connect. They drop the outfit. You won't forget. No was and Time. It's all by design. Hot takes to make you straight Golden.