If Books Could Kill
If Books Could Kill
Steve Harvey's "Act Like A Lady, Think Like A Man"
Are you a single lady struggling to find love with a man? Don't fret! A twice-divorced game show host who thinks conversation is for women is here to help.
Where to find us:
Thanks to Mindseye for our theme song!
Peter: Michael.
Michael: Peter.
Peter: What do you know about Act Like a Lady, Think Like a Man?
Michael: This is the first time we've ever covered a book that perfectly describes the cohost of this podcast.
[If Books Could Kill theme]
Peter: So, Steve Harvey is a comedian turned radio show personality. The origins of the book are that he was hosting a radio show and women would frequently call in asking for advice about men. And eventually, he thought he would compile his philosophy into a book. So, this book is specifically targeting women. It's basically a way for women to understand men.
Michael: Okay.
Peter: Hence the title of the book, Act Like a Lady, Think Like a Man.
Michael: How did you find out about this book? I had never heard about this book before you told me you were doing an episode on it.
Peter: What? No, I read black authors. That's what's going on.
Michael: [laughs] Where have you come across this in the wild?
Peter: Steve Harvey's super famous. [unintelligible [00:01:07] movie-- [crosstalk]
Michael: I know who Steve Harvey is, but like the book.
Peter: It sold many millions of copies. And then there was the fucking movie.
Michael: I spent a month reading NBER papers about men's falling wages, and you're just doing [laughs] the dumbest dating advice book imaginable.
Peter: This could be your life as well, Michael, [Michael laughs] if you didn't take yourself so fucking seriously.
Michael: I was joking that I needed to do a dumb dating advice book when we were recording that episode and now, you're taking this from me.
Peter: I did try to make this more serious, and I talked to you about this. I was like, “I'm going to do an evolutionary psychology offshoot.” And then I was several hours deep into the research, and I was like, “What am I doing?” [Michael laughs] Steve Harvey doesn't even believe in evolution, and I'm doing evolutionary psychology research. What's happening to me?
Michael: This is what I should have done on page 87 of my notes for Of Boys and Men. We should have just dunked on the stupid parts.
Peter: The big theme of this book, broadly speaking, is that men have certain traits and women should learn to adapt to those traits.
Michael: Gender essentialism in my dating advice.
Peter: And a couple of caveats right up top. When Steve says men, he means straight men.
Michael: Yeah.
Peter: If he wants to talk about gay men, he will do so explicitly and it will be homophobic.
Michael: [laughs] I'm just like, I'm really excited for those parts.
Peter: He breaks us in 2009, so he knows you can't be like, ugh, gross. But you can also tell he doesn't quite like it. Another thing is that a lot of Steve's audience is black women. And some of the advice is about dynamics faced by black women, specifically.
Michael: Which you'll be describing in detail, which you want to just going to-
Peter: I know that you told me you don't want to talk about race shit. That's what you told me.
Michael: Fuck off. Fuck off. [Peter laughs] I'm cutting every single time you do this. It's like a running joke for you. Last episode, I had to cut out a thing where you were saying, “Mike, you're always complaining about nurses making too much money.” I was like, “It's not worth it. It's not worth it.”
Peter: Oh, my God. I forgot that you cut that great joke. God damn it.
Michael: [laughs] No.
Peter: I think the best way to start off here will be to send you a bit. This is Steve's overview of men.
Michael: He says, There's no truer statement. Men are simple. Get this into your head first, and everything you learn about us in this book will begin to fall into place. Once you get that down, you'll have to understand a few essential truths. Men are driven by who they are, what they do, and how much they make. And until he's achieved his goal in those three areas, the man you're dating, committed to or married to, will be too busy to focus on you.
Peter: Right off the bat. He's saying that for men, women are an ancillary priority, right?
Michael: Lower your expectations, ladies. You are the least important thing in his life. [laughs]
Peter: Finding a partner is not one of these priorities for men. Not one of our top three priorities. So, to accept the premise of this book, you need to accept that this is what drives men. Who they are, what they do, and how much they make.
Michael: I just realized I'm going to be so insufferable throughout this whole episode because I just read all this Of Boys and Men shit for the Reeves episode. The thing that he's doing here is he's enforcing an idea of masculinity. That what men really want is to climb to the top of the mountain in their careers and they're not interested in women. But that's not true. In some public surveys, men are more likely to indicate a desire for a romantic relationship than women. So, this is just him making up a masculinity norm, basically.
Peter: It's not just that. Later in the book, he says, “Expressly, if it weren't for women, men wouldn't keep a nice house, wouldn't have their lives together or whatever.” And then it's like, “Wait, but you just said.”
Michael: Yeah, yeah that they don't care. Yeah.
Peter: He never really squares these circles. He's just rambling.
Michael: Yeah.
Peter: A very important thing to understand is that in the universe of this book, the man is a passive creature. What he wants and what he does is ordained by nature and God. Women are the ones with agency.
Michael: Oh, it's like Republicans and Democrats.
Peter: It's a lot like that.
Michael: On the [unintelligible [00:05:03] page. [laughs]
Peter: So, every issue that a woman has is necessarily her own problem. But the men in her life are on a preset path, and it's on her to adapt to them and move around them.
Michael: Right.
Peter: Steve says he can't sit around talking with you or dream about marriage and family if his mind is on how to make money, how to get a better position, how to be the kind of man he needs to be for you. So, he's saying that men are trying to do these things at all times, and what women need to do is understand that they are secondary in that sense.
Michael: Yeah. His hero's journey is amassing wealth and power, and your hero's journey is accepting that he likes those things more than he likes you.
Peter: Right. And he talks very expressly about that. He'll say, “Women want to change a man, but you can't. You can't change a man.”
Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Peter: He says that a man's love comes through professing, protecting, and providing. When he says professing, I assumed he meant like, “The man will profess his love to you,” but he actually means that when a man loves you, he will profess it to other people.
Michael: [Peter laughs] Oh, what? Dude, when we were reading that whole chapter in [unintelligible [00:06:16] reads his book about people overuse toxic masculinity and stuff, I sort of like, made a promise to myself that I wasn't going to make jokes about straight people anymore and dudes, but this episode feels like a test. [Peter laughs] I really believe that. I just want to say, “are the straights okay? Over and over again.” [Michael laughs] This is so bizarre.
Peter: Alright, I just sent you his bit on professing.
Michael: “A man who professes you as his own is also saying, in not so many words that he's claiming you that you are his. Now he's put everyone on notice. Any man who hears another man say, “This is my lady” knows that whatever games, tricks, plans, schemes he may have had in mind for the pretty, sexy lady standing in front of him need to be shelved until the next single woman comes in the room because another man has professed out loud that this one is mine and she's not available for anything you were plotting and planning.” I don't get it. What is he saying now?
Peter: Now, you don't get this because gay people don't have monogamous relationships, but let me explain this.
[laughter]
Michael: Give it to me in polycule.
Peter: He's saying that professing your love is actually just claiming ownership to other people, sort of, right? So, “This is my lady, so you can't hit on her.”
Michael: Okay.
Peter: The other side of that is, he says, “When a guy introduces you to people as his friends or something similar, it means that he thinks it's less serious. Which I actually think maybe gets points for being probably generally true.
Michael: Yeah, yeah.
Peter: But the whole premise here is that when a guy claims you publicly, announces that you're his lady publicly, that is how he professes his love.
Michael: But then not to you personally.
Peter: Emotionally connecting with a woman personally is completely unrelated to how a man expresses his love.
Michael: Fellas, is it gay to tell a girl that you like her. [Peter laughs] Yes, it is.
Peter: It's just so fucking stupid, whatever. Okay. The thing about this book is that we actually have to keep going [Michael laughs] because we're on page 25.
Michael: How long is it? How long did it take you to get through it?
Peter: It's 200 change pages. It's a quick read, especially there are some chapters that you can eyeball and be like, “I don't need to be paying attention during this chapter,” it's again, professing, providing and protecting. He says about providing. Simply put, “A man who loves you will bring that money home to make sure that you and the kids have what you all need. Know this. It is your right to expect that a man will pay for your dinner, your movie ticket, your club entry fee, or whatever else he has to pay for in exchange for your time.”
Michael: Love is transactional.
Peter: So far, I actually think we're in pretty generic misogynistic dynamics territory where you have public demonstrations of ownership over a woman in some way, and then you have pay for stuff, sure., right?
Michael: Yeah.
Peter: This is just sexism 101, right?
Michael: To his credit, this does recreate the feeling of listening to an asinine morning zoo talk radio show, which it seems like is what this came out of. [laughter] So, kudos to him for having a clear authorial voice.
Peter: Now we get to protect. And this is one of my favorite passages from the book. I'm going to send you something.
Michael: He says, “When a man truly loves you, anybody who says, does, suggests, or even thinks about doing something offensive to you stands the risk of being obliterated. Your man will destroy anything and everything in his path to make sure that whoever disrespected you pays for it. This is his nature.” I like it when straight people reflect my most heterophobic beliefs back to me. [Peter laughs] All straight men are basically cavemen. Yes, Steve, tell me more.
Peter: I am sending you another bit.
Michael: I'd argue that this is most certainly one of the key things any woman wants in her man, because it is what girls have been raised to expect, that they can count on the most important men in their lives to go to battle for them and keep them safe from all harm, no matter the cost. I think you all know this so well that you take great care in letting a man who loves you know that someone's been a threat or danger to you because you know that your man, whether he be father, brother, uncle, husband, or lover, is going to do everything in his power and then some to defend your honor. Maybe even hurt somebody despite the consequences.
For instance, you probably don't really want to hype what's been going on down at your job because he might head down to the job and have a few words with your boss if necessary. And we all know that would not be a good situation. Yeah, it really feels like he's just sitting down and typing and then, like, not reading it. [laughs]
Peter: Dude, I love this passage so much because he starts off by saying what women want in a man is for them to protect her. And then he immediately says that women can't even talk about their boss because it might drive their man to physical violence. [Michael laughs] A real man literally cannot handle hearing about your day-
Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Peter: -because he will become murderous. He will actually go to prison if he finds out that your boss was rude to you.
Michael: I also love that he's like, “Men just care so much about women, and that's why women are deceptive. That's why women don't talk about things because they know their man cares about them too much.” She doesn't want to talk about her day.
Peter: I have so many thoughts on this because this is like, how faux alpha dudes talk about protecting women, but are actually just lashing out, out of possessiveness and insecurity. “I'm protecting my family.” No, you're having a mental breakdown and putting everyone in danger. [Michael laughs] I was just seeing some discussion of this online because of the Trump, Vance, Zelensky stuff.
Michael: Oh, yeah.
Peter: What our society seems to believe is masculinity is actually just acting like an angry baby in a lot of ways, right.
Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Peter: Like, not being in control of your emotions, but lacking control over your emotions and lashing out in a way that makes other people uncomfortable because your ability to make other people uncomfortable is like, that's where the masculinity comes from.
Michael: As if it's being a good boyfriend. When your girlfriend comes home and she's like, “I had a tough day at work.” And you're like, “Give me the fucking address. I'm going to go beat up your boss.” Like, that's psychotic.
Peter: That's how men express their love. Like, “Ugh, my boss is a dick.” And you're like, “What the fuck did he say? What the fuck did he say? I'm going down there.” All right. So, he gives an example of his protective instinct and how it's manifested in the real world. He says, “My wife Marjorie still cracks up when she thinks about how I protected her on a recent joint fishing and diving trip we took in Maui.
Michael: Okay.
Peter: See, my wife is a certified scuba diver. I am not. When we got out on those choppy waters of the Pacific Ocean, I couldn't help but feel like something was going to happen to my wife down there and I wouldn't have any way of protecting her.
Michael: Oh, is he going to beat up a fish? [Peter laughs] Men will fight sea turtles before going to therapy. I can't tell these jokes anymore.
Peter: [laughs] Alright? This is long, but I promise you it's worth it.
Michael: Okay. “By the time, she was actually under the water, I told my security guy who can't scuba dive to put on his snorkel and get in and keep an eye on her. I'd also told everyone on board, from my manager to the captain, that if my wife is not back up here in 35 minutes, everyone's putting on some suits and we're going to go get her. The guy leading the expedition said as nicely as he could, “Sir, everyone can't go down to save one person.” But his words meant nothing to me. I'm telling you, I said, getting a little more jumpy with each word, either everybody goes down there to save her or I'm killing everybody on the boat. [Peter laughs] This boat goes nowhere without her, and if it pulls off and she's not on it, that's it for everybody.
My wife must have sensed something was up because suddenly she was back above water. She knew that I was acting up, and rather than dive, she returned to the boat because she knew how nervous I was about the whole idea of her submerge underwater, where I couldn't act on my natural instincts to protect her. She figured it was better to sit that dive out. She understands that primal need I have to make sure nothing bad happens to her. Marjorie is a pretty adventurous girl. But she's cut out a lot of that stuff, the diving and parasailing and such, for that very reason.” Oh, my God. I ruined my wife's hobby.
Peter: This is what protecting your wife is all about, baby. [Michael laughs] This is what masculinity is becoming completely overwhelmed by your irrational fears, threatening strangers with violence and forcing your wife to stop doing the things that she loves.
Michael: He is worried about his wife, but he doesn't know how to express that other than violence. He's like, “I'll fucking murder you if you don't go down in this hypothetical situation where she's in trouble and not everybody goes and rescues her,” right?
Peter: In a situation where he feels anxious because he lacks control, he is like, “I'll kill everyone on the boat.” [Michael laughs] And he's like, “I'll put that in my book.” This is a good example of how I love my wife. A good amount of the book is, like, this, where the basic premise is, like, men are sensitive, insane little babies. And as a woman, your responsibility is to cater to that, because them fixing themselves is completely out of the question. The idea that you having a meltdown because your wife is scuba diving actually might be your problem rather than hers is not even given a brief moment of thought. You're actually being brave and cool.
Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And also using your tyrannical power as a rich guy with staff.
Peter: Right.
Michael: To be like, you need to go down there and save her. The guy's like, “I can't even scuba dive.” And he's like, “Get in there.” [laughs]
Peter: I love the world where she doesn't come up. Steve kills everyone on the boat, and then she surfaces perfectly fine an hour later, and he's like, “I killed everyone. I killed everyone. Marjorie, we're actually stranded at sea.”
Michael: Do you guys know what a good husband I am? My wife doesn't do shit. She used to be in a book club. [Peter laughs] She used to go jogging. She doesn't do any of that stuff anymore because I love her so much.
Peter: It's very funny, by the way, that, like, there's a really common, sexist, sort of talking point that's like, women don't have real hobbies, right? They just socialize and stuff.
Michael: I have never heard this. Are you getting this from your TikTok algorithm?
Peter: All right, cut this, cut this.
Michael: Your recipes and misogyny, TikTok algorithm. [laughs]
Peter: Maybe you're not talking to enough straight men, [laughs] but I actually-- With this story in particular, I wonder whether some part of his subconscious is embarrassed by this situation. And so, we had to create a framework where it's like, this is actually a virtue of mine. I'm not saying I'm a protector.
Michael: Damn. Your wife still has hobbies and yet you call yourself a man.
Peter: This is how these guys, who otherwise, in many cases, actually defy our stereotypical understandings of masculinity, like Trump get cast as tough, right?
Michael: Right.
Peter: Because if you're a guy, just being belligerent can be framed as a virtue. Right?
Michael: Right.
Peter: All right, the next chapter is called the Three Things Every Man Needs. The three things are your support, your loyalty, and the cookie, which is, unfortunately, what Steve Harvey calls sex throughout this book.
Michael: [laughs] Oh, no. Oh, no.
Peter: This chapter isn't very interesting, but it does contain one of the more offensive passages in the book, which I'm going to read to you because I thought it would be rude to make you say it.
Michael: Okay.
Peter: Okay. [laughs] He says, “I've said over and over again, jokingly, that the only way a woman can truly be completely satisfied is to get herself four different men. An old one, an ugly one, a Mandingo, and a gay guy.”
Michael: [laughs] Oh, my fucking God. Please don't elaborate, Peter. Please don't tell me more about this fucking thing.
Peter: All right, next chapter.
[laughter]
Michael: What the fuck?
Peter: So, the idea is that the old man will sit around the house with her and spend his money on her. The ugly one will go above and beyond to help out because he's just grateful to be with you. The Mandingo, of course, is antiquated, racialized term for a himbo. Yeah, he's for sex and aesthetics. And then the gay guy is for shopping and gossip.
Michael: Oh, my fucking God.
[laughter]
But then this is just people having different aspects of their personality. This is like, people on their dating profiles who will be like, “What? I'm looking for someone who can be funny one minute and serious the next.” It's like, that's just people. That’s it.
Peter: Yeah. That's why every girl's dating profile is like, “I just want a guy who'll be old one minute and then ugly the next, and then gay. “
[laughter]
The stuff in this chapter about support and loyalty from women is relatively inoffensive by Steve Harvey standards.
Michael: I thought that was going to be a bunch of jealousy stuff like, “You can't trust her.”
Peter: I mean, he basically is just like, “Loyalty is when you don't cheat.” It's like, right?
Michael: Well, yeah. Yeah, that's fair.
Peter: The sex portion is weird, mostly because Steve can't bring himself to be like “Men like sex.” So, he ends up saying this. I'll read it. [Michael laughs] He says, “We need to be physically engaged with the woman we love, the woman who is loyal to us and supports us. And the way we do that is by making love. The emotional stuff, the talking, the cuddling, the holding hands and bonding, that's y’alls thing. We'll do those things because we know it's important to you. But please understand, the way we men connect is by having sex.”
Michael: This is, again, fake. Men love cuddling. A, that's objectively the best part. B, men want this shit. Like, men want intimacy, like, expressed through sex and also other things like, this is just fake. This is like a fake standard for men to live up to.
Peter: No, no, you're wrong. You don't.
Michael: Why are men constantly being fucking lied to by other men?
Peter: Dude, one of the most common themes throughout this book, and we're going to circle back to it repeatedly, is that he thinks talking is for women and that men do not like to talk. [Michael laughs] And further, that men should not be expected to talk to their significant other very much. There's a whole chapter about how men hate it when you say, “We need to talk.”
Michael: Well, yeah, I mean.
Peter: Well, here's the thing. At first, you're like, “Oh, is he talking about that exact phrase?” because then fair enough. But then he actually just complains about talking to women the entire chapter.
Michael: The fuck. [laughs] This is, again, every single one of these advice books is like an accidental biography, right? Because he's just describing his own relationship where he doesn't really like hanging out with his wife and chatting. That's the whole point of a relationship, surely.
Peter: I would say that half of this book is like, “Oh, I was the host of a radio show and I have some wisdom I want to compile. The other half is like a response to my wives.
Michael: Why do men have to constantly be reminded that you should date people you like?
Peter: I honestly think this is true. I don't think Steve Harvey likes anyone. [Michael laughs] I think it was. I can't remember who said this, but one of the things I read about this book was that the only redeeming thing about Steve Harvey's misogyny is that he actually seems to hate men just as much if you look closely. [Michael laughs] Let me send you this bit.
Michael: “No man wants to sit around gabbing with you like we're one of your girlfriends ever. It's just not in our DNA to lounge around, sip coffee, and dab at our eyes with tissue as if we're in an AA meeting or on some psychologist's couch trying to get things off our chest. When men are talking and especially when they're listening, it's with purpose.” Yes, we hate you.
Peter: It's crazy what people will do to rationalize their flaws away. Like, “Alright, dude, you're emotionally unavailable and do not enjoy the company of your partner.” You don't have to do a whole thing where it's like, “When I speak, it's with purpose.”
Michael: If you hate talking to this person, just get a Fleshlight.
Peter: [laughs] You don't have to embarrass yourself like this, man. Go listen to the conversations happening between men playing video games and tell me that they're all speaking with purpose.
Michael: Dude, [laughs]
Peter: What are you talking about? What are you talking about?
Michael: Also, you host a fucking talk radio show. You're like, “Oh, I don't talk.” [Peter laughs] Men don't sit around gabbing. You literally talk for a living, man.
Peter: This isn't like when I am hosting Family Feud where I speak with purpose. [Michael laughs] All right, here's more.
Michael: He says, “We hate gossiping, but we know we can't stop it. It's an invasion of privacy. And a man is pretty confident that if you and your friends are willing to talk about other people together, then your friends are probably talking about you and him too. Keep that in mind next time you start getting all into other people's business. “This seems like an expression of paranoia-- [crosstalk]
Peter: Yeah, yeah.
Michael: That his wife is talking about him with other people, which is fine.
Peter: I don't know that's his concern. I honestly just think he hates it when women are talking.
Michael: [laughs] You think this is more about listening rather than having someone talking about him 100%.
Peter: And it's offensive. It's offensive to say that men hate gossiping. This is offensive to all the boys who like to talk a little shit.
Michael: Yeah.
Peter: You are real and you are valid and you're still a man. That's what I say.
Michael: And also, don't go scuba diving or parasailing because it stresses me out. But also, don't sit next to me.
Peter: I don't want you doing something adventurous, but I also don't want you talking to me. And if you ask me to go shopping, I'm not fucking gay.
Michael: No, I'm not gay.
Peter: So, think again, buddy, all right. I'm sending you an example of Steve almost getting woke. And this happens more than once.
Michael: Communicating, nurturing, listening to problems and trying to understand them without any obligation to fix them is simply not what boys are raised to do. That's true, but bad.
Peter: Right.
Michael: We don't let them cry. We don't ask them how they feel about anything, and we don't encourage them to express themselves in any meaningful way beyond showing how manly they are. Let a little boy fall off his bike and scrape his knee. See how fast everyone tells him to get up and shake it off and stop all that doggone crying. Be a man, we demand. There's no discussion about how he felt when he hit the ground. Nobody's asking him to talk about whether he's too scared to get back on the bike and try again. Now that he's grown and in a relationship, you expect that same boy who was told to keep quiet and keep it moving to be a man who can sit and listen and communicate and nurture. I'm telling you now, your expectations are off. This could be a critical studies journal, right?
Peter: He's like, “Yeah, we're socialized in this way that closes off our emotions.” And rather than being like, “You know, it's something we have to work on, it's something you need to understand.” He's like, “So don't fucking try to communicate with us.”
Michael: Yeah, exactly. So don't talk.
Peter: Like, trying to address the underlying problem isn't part of what he's discussing here.
Michael: I'm so fascinated by this thing where like right coded, conservative coded people will freely admit that liberals, SJWs, feminists are correct, but then fail to reach the conclusion. So, when I was reading all this men's rights activism garbage for the Boys And Men episode in those tracts, they will say, “Male suicide rates are higher because masculinity norms mean we cannot ask for help…” And that's why feminism is a cancer. And you're like, “Wait, you're, this is what feminists have been saying all along. This is what the left has been saying. And you're just saying they're correct.”
Peter: Because they believe that is natural and the output of natural hierarchies, etc., and things that are ultimately good. So, the fact that men are tough like this. In Steve Harvey's mind, is actually probably a good thing at the end of the day. And so, the problem isn't necessarily that men are socialized not to communicate. The problem is that women expect men to communicate.
Michael: Right.
Peter: Right. He gets so close.
Michael: But also, he's encouraging this. He's reinforcing this, while he's also acknowledging that it's garbage.
Peter: There's another point where he's talking about needing support by which he means verbal encouragement from your partner.
Michael: Oh, yeah.
Peter: So, stupid that he doesn't even know that we each have different love languages. Not everyone needs affirmation. [Michael laughs] He's talking about why men need this. And he says he might have a job where three people can walk by his desk and give him a pink slip at any moment, change his life in the flash of an eye. The guy in the position beneath your man may just be searching for a way to undermine him so he can get the bigger pay. Your man could be driving down the street, minding his own business, and get pulled over, and something could happen that he has no control over, or someone may try to come and take what he's got.
Michael: Yeah. Again, men don't have a lot of control in their lives, and oftentimes they lash out.
Peter: Right. He's talking about all of these structural pressures and how they create this need.
Michael: To assert control where you can, yeah.
Peter: And to be validated for what they have, right?
Michael: Yeah.
Peter: So true.
Michael: You know, it's like he gets it, but he just won't conclude anything from it.
Peter: The only lesson he takes from it is that because of all these institutional pressures, women have to be really nice to us. [Michael laughs] That's what he takes away from it.
Michael: It's an appeal to sympathy for his own bad behavior. It's not a call to change any of these things.
Peter: Okay, so the next chapter is called Sports Fish vs. Keepers.
Michael: What?
Peter: This is a fishing analogy where women are the fish and the basic premise is that depending on how a woman acts, a man will either treat her like a sport fish, meaning one you throw back, or a keeper, which is one you keep, and also you kill and eat, [Michael laughs] which I think is where the metaphor falls apart a little bit. So, here's what he says about the sport fish, which, again, is a human being, that he's-- [crosstalk]
[laughter]
Michael: We're already the original sin of this is the metaphor at all.
Peter: Also, I like how he makes it seem like he's a fisherman. This is a man who had a fucking meltdown on a boat when his wife went underwater.
Michael: [laughs] So, he says the sport fish doesn't have any rules, requirements, respect for herself, or guidelines. And we men can pick up her scent a mile away. She's the party girl who takes a sip of her Long Island Iced tea or a shot of her Patron, then announces to her suitor that she just wants to date and see how it goes. She has no plans for any ongoing relationships, is not expecting anything in particular from a man and sets absolutely not nary one condition or restriction on anyone standing before her. She makes it very clear that she's just along for whatever is getting ready to happen. For sure, as soon as she lets a man know through words and action that he can treat her like any old. What on earth? It feels like he dictated this into voice memos or something. These are not real sentences.
Peter: There's a little bit of Aave, which I'm enjoying watching you work through.
Michael: [laughs] For sure. As soon as she lets a man know through words and action that he can treat her just any old kind of way, he will do just that.
Peter: Okay, now the keeper-- [crosstalk]
Michael: Just say, Madonna whore complex. This is taking forever. [laughs]
Peter: It's so simple, it's so funny.
Michael: So, he says “The keeper never gives in easily. And the standards/requirements start the moment you open your mouth. See, she understands her power and wields it like a samurai sword. She commands, not demands respect, just by the way she carries herself. You can walk up to her and give her your best game. And while she may be impressed by what you say, that's no guarantee that she's going to let the conversation go any further, much less give you her phone number and agree to give you some of her valuable time. Men automatically know from the moment she opens her mouth that if they want her, they'll have to get in line with her standards and requirements or keep it moving because she's done with the games and isn't interested in playing.”
Peter: Yeah.
Michael: This is just like someone who rejects your advances versus someone who accepts them.
Peter: It's someone who puts requirements out there. We're segueing into Steve's most consistent piece of good advice, which is only good in the general sense that you should be establishing requirements for your partner, communicating them clearly and enforcing those boundaries. The problem is that the requirements that Steve thinks he should have are pretty antiquated stuff. The basic dichotomy here is like, “So, ladies, are you going to be a keeper or a whore?”
Michael: Yeah, exactly. [laughs]
Peter: A Patron drinking whore.
Michael: [laughs] This is also this fucked up thing. It's like, men want sex. Obviously, that's part of his whole point. But then also, if a woman wants sex, this feels like it's just like a woman who will sleep with you on the first date. But bro, you're enforcing a norm where you're going to get laid less. You should be wanting women to have sex with dudes. You'll get more sex. It's why are you doing this to yourself?
Peter: Right. But he's a good guy that deserves it. So, it's different for him.
Michael: [laughs] I know.
Peter: I really struggle with this sort of stuff, not only because it's run through with misogyny, but because the first chick as a guy who likes women is just so much more appealing to me. Like, which one of the women do I want? [Michael laughs] Take the one who sounds cool. I'll take the one who sounds fun as hell, dude.
Michael: Yeah. Do you want to have sex with people who are bad at sex? I don't understand why straight men are constantly doing this bizarre body count shit when it's like, yeah, people who are good at sex have probably had sex before, and then you have good sex with them.
Peter: This is offensive to people who love sluts. I'm a big fan of sluts. [Michael laughs] Men and women.
Michael: Go for the horny sluts. Find them.
Peter: Absolutely, absolutely.
Michael: Just sniff Patron. Like, sniff and scurry running through the maze. Just smell for Patron on the breath of a woman.
Peter: Keep a condom around your neck like the way they do the shoes.
[laughter]
That joke can't make the final cut, but I do believe it's funny.
Michael: That was for us. That was just for us, Peter. [laughs]
Peter: That was for us. That was for us. So again, Steve is advocating for women to set standards for the men that they date, communicate those standards, abide by those standards. All good in theory. One standard he advocates for the most, which he dedicates a whole chapter to, is called the 90-day rule.
Michael: Oh, is this a sex thing?
Peter: Wait 90 days before having sex.
Michael: Bro. Why? Why are men doing this to themselves?
Peter: He's not doing this. It's important to understand that he's talking about other women with other men in his mind.
Michael: I mean, I guess, yeah.
Peter: In his mind this is about women debasing themselves with other men. If you started dating Steve Harvey, I guarantee you he's going to [Michael laughs] want to have sex before 90 days. I'll send you something.
Michael: He says, “Think about it. The first guy you slept with quicker than 90 days, where is he? I'm willing to bet you're probably not with him. True. There are some people out there somewhere who had sex early in their relationship and are still together to this very day. But that's rare.” Gay people exist, Steve. [Peter laughs] We have sex first, and then we're like, Hi, I'm Mike.
Peter: 90% of gay couples met at a gangbang, Steve. [Michael laughs] So, I don't even understand this got you. Like, bet you're not with the first guy you slept with him less than 90 days.
Michael: Well, yeah, no one's with the first person they slept with.
Peter: Right, what are you talking about.
Michael: No.
Peter: By the way, the first person I waited for more than 90 days with was like my second girlfriend or something. I'm not with her either. I don't know what.
Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Peter: He compares this to one of his first jobs working Ford Motor Company. He says that benefits kicked in at the 90-day mark.
Michael: That's not the same thing at all.
Peter: He says, “So if Ford won't give a man benefits until he's been on the job and proven himself, why ladies, are you passing out benefits to men before they've proven themselves worthy?”
Michael: I mean, you have to work 10 years to get Social Security, so why not just make it 10 years if we're doing dumb metaphors?
Peter: [laughs] Your Social Security benefits don't vest until the age of 67, folks. That is when you should fuck. If your advice is sort of like, “Hey, a lot of guys will pretend to be interested in a relationship, but they really just want sex. So, you can like weed them out by waiting a bit.” Whatever, fine, I guess-- [crosstalk]
Michael: I'm not sure whatever. Also, you can have sex with those guys and it's fine.
Peter: That's the thing is like, the thing about that is that Steve Harvey again truly believes that when a woman sleeps with a dude, she's giving up her virtue.
Michael: Yeah, yeah, you've lost something.
Peter: And so, if it turns out that it was just casual, then she's living in shame. Now she, like her whole family has been embarrassed by her actions or whatever. He says, “And you, in the meantime, in the 90-day period he means, win the ultimate prize of maintaining your dignity and self-esteem and earning the respect of the man who recognized that you were worth the wait.”
Michael: This is like biblical morality. This is from a thousand years ago. She got free sex, Steve. She had sex. Sex is fun.
Peter: No, you wouldn't want to sacrifice your dignity by having sex at the 70-day mark, you fucking slut.
[laughter]
Michael: Why are people doing this to themselves?
Peter: [laughs] This is crazy, dude. Here's the thing is no one is doing this.
Michael: No, it's just nothing. It's enforcing a norm to scold people for not doing it. But no one is actually going to do this. And he must know that.
Peter: 90 days, dude, 90 days is longer than the presidential transition period in this country between administrations. [Michael laughs] You're telling me they can set up whole government faster than you can figure out whether you want to let this dude hit. That's what we're talking about here. And again, this is just unfair to sluts.
Michael: I would say it should be the 90-minute rule. You must have sex within 90 minutes to know if you're wasting your time.
Peter: The craziest thing about gay guys is that you'll have completely sober dates and then be like, “Well, let's go fuck.” That's the wild thing to me is like, straight couples will be like, “you want to get drinks?” And then if someone says you want to get drinks, you know that maybe someone's getting laid. If someone's like, “you want to get coffee?” That's like, “Hey, I'm not trying to have sex.”
Michael: What?
Peter: With gays it's crazy. You'll be like, “Hey, do you want to go rock climbing?” And then he's like, “Oh my God, this guy wants to fuck so bad.” He just invited me rock climbing. This is nuts.
Michael: [laughs] All you're saying is that we want to have sex with someone who's good at sex. I don't want to have sex with a drunk person. I want to have sex with an over caffeinated man with ropey forearms.
Peter: I'm not even going to talk about this. [Michael laughs] You don't know what you're talking about. This is crazy.
Michael: I'm going to spend $25 before having sex. I got to spend $25 to have sex.
Peter: That's your problem with it. Come on.
Michael: I'm getting a drip coffee at 2 in the afternoon at Starbucks.
[laughter]
Peter: All right, let's get back into this book.
Michael: Oh God. Why?
Peter: We're out of control. All right, there's a very weird chapter that's entirely about mama's boys.
Michael: What?
Peter: And that's the name of the chapter, Mama's Boys. I actually think this chapter is a really good illustration of how Steve's brain operates. He says that a lot of women write to his show about men whose mother plays too large of a role in their lives. The guy's too much of a pushover to establish boundaries with her. Classic archetype of a guy.
Michael: I guess. Yeah. Again, date people you like. If you don't like that, don't date people like that. I don't know.
Peter: He says “To all the women in relationships with mama's boys, I say, stop coming up with excuses and recognize that he's a mama's boy because you let him be one.”
Michael: Oh my God.
Peter: Yes, I said it. It's period, your period, fault, period. He says that women need to establish standards for their man and “If you don't have any standards or requirements, guess whose rules he's going to follow?” That's Right, his mother's.
Michael: What on earth?
Peter: [laughs] So, if he's a mama's boy, that's not because of his relationship with his own mother or anything. It's because you're the new mom.
Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Peter: You're supposed to be the new mom and you're not doing it right.
Michael: I'd love it if he was like, if only you hadn't waited so long to have sex with him, he wouldn't have been able to form a bond with a different woman, his birth mother.
Peter: Basically, every dynamic in human relationships is either blamed on women in this book, or at least he gives women the responsibility for addressing the problem. The male psychology is a pure force of nature. It cannot be changed. All problems are addressed through women's labor. It's actually impressive. The idea that you're like, “Hey, my boyfriend is too much of a mama's boy.” And Steve Harvey's like, “That's cause you're not mom. like, enough.”
Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Peter: You must replace his mother. What are you talking about, dude? [laughs]
Michael: Peter, do you think you've gotten good dating advice in your life? I feel like there's so little decent dating advice for straight guys.
Peter: I'm sure that I have, but I don't remember it. I also want to be clear. I wasn't good at dating until I got handsome in my late 20s.
[laughter]
Michael: You are fully an incel. You just happen to be on the right side of that equation.
Peter: Things got real simple. [Michael laughs] I think the real thing with dating is that a lot of people find no enjoyment in the process of dating. And I always liked dating. I liked going out, meeting someone, if it doesn't work, whatever. I'm a relatively social guy because I enjoy that. I never felt like dating really stressed me out because even when it wasn't really going well, I was still doing something that I enjoyed. It was like a hobby almost.
Michael: Yeah, I'm like that too. It's nice to go and just like have a coffee with a new person. It's fun to chat with people and if you like them, you go back to your place. And if you don't like them, you still go back to your place, but you do different things to them.
Peter: Or like, you meet a weirdo and you get to tell your friends about that rule, again, because I'm a gossipy little bitch.
Michael: By far the worst ones are the ones that don't yield anecdote.
Peter: Oh yeah.
Michael: I want sex or content. Those are my only two [Peter laughs] needs as a 43-year-old gay man.
Peter: Now, there's also a chapter called Why Men Cheat.
Michael: Of course. [crosstalk]
Peter: I'll give you a single guess as to which gender he blames for men cheating.
Michael: [laughs] Maybe you're making him wait too long. Maybe on the 89th day, he gives in to temptation and he has sex with someone else.
Peter: That's actually worth noting. He hints that if you don't put out for your dude, you'll push him to cheat. But then earlier when he was talking about the 90-day rule, he said the opposite. He said that not putting out would make him respect. It's like, “Well, okay whatever.”
Michael: That's the Goldilocks for you. You can't be too much of a slut, and you can't be too much of a prude. And if you're a woman, you're always doing it wrong.
Peter: You're doing the high wire between the twin towers, right? On one side is slut and one side is prude. He says that powerful men are compelled to cheat. He says you can't be a man of power and not step outside your house.
Michael: That's him. That's him talking about like, “I'm a rich celebrity.”
Peter: I don't know one man of power who has not stepped outside his house. Such a man may exist, but I have not met him.
Michael: What the fuck is this?
Peter: But I do know men of power who have learned to do right, go home and take care of their families.
Michael: What?
Peter: I've been keeping this in my pocket, but Marjorie, the scuba diver is Steve's third wife.
Michael: Okay. [laughs]
Peter: And the previous wives accuse him publicly of cheating.
Michael: Oh, really? Okay. Well, yeah.
Peter: And he has admitted to cheating. You can see him admitting to it functionally in this paragraph, right?
Michael: Yeah.
Peter: This is the speech that he gave to his wife. “I'm a man of power” come on, man. Give me a fucking break, dude.
Michael: I love how this book pretends to be advice on how women can date men, but it turns out to just be advice on how women can date Steve Harvey. I am going to cheat on you and I am going to say it's your fault.
Peter: Also, how did the other woman impress him without the 90-day waiting period?
Michael: Although, I actually think this is consistent. Because earlier he said, “If you sleep with a man before 90 days, he's not going to respect you.” And like, “Yeah, Steve Harvey does not strike me as the guy who totally respects the women that he's sleeping with.”
[laughter]
So, he is actually living proof.
Peter: Imagine you're just trying to fuck a rich celebrity. And he's like, “My rule is 90 days.” You're like, God damn it.
Michael: [laughs] I just want the anecdote, Steve. I'm really just here for the story.
Peter: I'm just trying to tell my friends I fuck the family if you die. Can you please. So, the best part of this section is that it's coming after several chapters about how you need to set standards and respect yourself.
Michael: Yeah.
Peter: You get to the cheating part, and you imagine that he's going to say, if he cheats, leave him.
Michael: Yeah.
Peter: But he actually preaches forgiveness, believe it or not.
Michael: Of course, [laughs] my God.
Peter: He says, “If a man who's cheated on you sees you walking out the door and you matter to him, please know that at this point, he's very vulnerable and open to learning. [Michael laughs] Should he win you back, he's going to straighten up and fly right, because he's almost lost his girl and his family, which means he'll do most anything you tell him to get back into your good graces.
Michael: You're ruining your moment of post nut clarity.
Peter: Different situations are different. So, I'm not judging anyone who chooses forgiveness in these circumstances, but I cannot emphasize enough how much of the book has been respect yourself, ladies.
Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Peter: Set clear boundaries and enforce them. And then you get this, and it's just like, “Come on, man.”
Michael: Unless he's a powerful man and maybe hosts some sort of, a game show or something. I don't-- just to pick a random example. In that case, you should forgive him.
Peter: Imagine being in a relationship and cheating on them, and then when they confront you, you're like, “I'm a man of power. I can't help it. I'm on two podcasts.”
Michael: Also, I know the answer to this. But does he address women of power? What if Marjorie's a CEO?
Peter: Well, first of all, women of power, not hot [Michael laughs] Steve Harvey.
Michael: Oxymoron.
Peter: Oh, actually, this is a beautiful segue, Mike, because there's a chapter about strong and independent women, and the title of that chapter is Strong, Independent, and Lonely Women. [Michael laughs] There are subsections titled How to Be a Girl on a Date. How to Be a Girl at Home. The broad theme is being an independent woman is great, but it won't get you a man, because men don't like it. The advice is sort of like what you'd expect. Don't split the bill, don't drive him to a date, let him do any heavy lifting around the house or any laborious chores or whatever.
Michael: Never open a jar in front of him, ladies.
Peter: What's interesting, though, is that he doesn't frame it like that's the man's job. The way he frames it is like, men need to feel needed. So, the premise is that if you want the guy to be happy, you need him to feel like he's providing for you, even if you don't actually need him to provide for you because you are an independent woman. So, it's how big cats will pretend to be startled when their cubs pounce at them. The male ego is deeply fragile, and it's very important to nurture it. So, you must do that by pretending to need him to provide for you.
Michael: This is one of my favorite things about American masculinity, where it's like, “Men are supposed to be strong and independent and stoic, but also, they will melt down like a fucking pansy if you are better at fixing a bicycle than they are.” Right?
Peter: Right.
Michael: Or if you make more money.
Peter: Right.
Michael: Like, they're both Charles Bronson and also Dawson from Dawson's Creek.
Peter: This is one step away from being break the toilet every now and then just so he has something to do. It's like a Stepford husband situation. You're doing so good. You're, giving him little activities.
Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like you're so secure in your manhood that you expect your wife to treat you like an orca at SeaWorld. Just like giving you little sardines throughout the day. Like, “Oh, wow, you beat Malenia with no summons.” Let me get the bucket.
Peter: Now, I could keep going with this sort of stuff, but it does become redundant after a point. There is, though, some really unhinged stuff in here that I would be remiss not to mention. Now, again, earlier, we talked about how Steve did not think that men should be expected to talk to their significant others very much.
Michael: I hate that.
Peter: I am going to send you the wildest iteration of this. The heading of this portion is, “How does he react to bad news?”
Michael: What if the bad news is, “We're waiting another 90 days?”
Peter: I also want to point out this section is in the, like, wait 90 days to fuck second chapter. [laughs]
Michael: Say “You lose a loved one, someone really close to you. A man who has plans for you will immediately offer some form of comfort and help so that you can take the time to grieve. He might ask you if he can take your kids out for a couple hours so you can have some time to yourself or he might ask you if he can go with you to the funeral home to be with you while you see about the arrangements. And so that he can express his condolences to your family. Note, ladies, he's probably not going to want to sit there and let you retrace your childhood and reminisce about the first time your deceased loved one pushed you on the swing. That's not about to happen. It's not what men do. But a real man will respond with some solution.
He will do what he can to help you stop crying. Because no man wants to see his woman crying. If this man is not comforting, if he's not coming up with better solutions to help you feel better, then he needs to be fired. He has no rights to the benefits.” Oh, now he draws a line in the sand.
Peter: Yeah.
Michael: He is going to be shit at listening to you. But if he doesn't help with the logistics, that's when you should break up with him.
Peter: Right, right. If your family member dies, [Michael laughs] I'm not going to sit there and listen to you fucking yap about it. But if you want a soda or something, I will go to the store.
Michael: [laughs] Just the lowest bar.
Peter: A lot of this book is just the philosophy of a very sexist man. But there were a few times where you're just like, “Oh, he's a sociopath.” He doesn't feel emotions when people die, and he believes that it's because he's a dude. But it's like, “No, it's because you are a diagnosable psychopath.”
Michael: The only extent to which this book is interesting is as a little snapshot of American masculinity in the 2000s, because he is constructing masculinity here as something that everyone around a man has to go out of their way to reinforce. It's up to women to give men opportunities to fix things and cook meat on the grill or whatever. But then it's never up to men to reinforce femininity. Even if you have this gender essentialist view that, like, men do things and women are interested in feelings and relationships, can't men every once in a while, just fucking ask, “How are you? How do you feel?”
Peter: Right?
Michael: It's not just that it's essentialist. It's also hierarchical. It's always that man's needs are supreme to women's needs.
Peter: You can think of a steel man version of this. It's like, men are not socialized to communicate effectively in these situations, and here's how you can deal with it or whatever. There's some version of that. But he's literally just like, “You think we're going to fucking reminisce with you? That's not what men do.” [Michael laughs] Jesus Christ, bro.
Michael: It's so bizarre to me, the idea of loving someone and not wanting to know this stuff. I'm just like, “What is love to you then?”
Peter: I would love to hear him articulate why he wants to be married to anyone. Yeah, I guarantee that it would be just a religious explanation. One thing, I've skirted around. Because it's not that interesting. Is that he often talks about finding a man of God and stuff like that. That's very important to him. He's talked about this publicly, how he doesn't believe that atheists can be good people and stuff like that. But I honestly think that he just feels that these are the burdens that we carry with us because of the order of things. That you must pursue a relationship and you want to get married, you want to have kids. Not because you truly want to, but because these are the things that we are supposed to do.
Michael: There's also a culture among men like this sort of Madonna whore binary that he sets up where it's like you marry a woman because you're supposed to like her. She's the type of woman that you can be with your friends around, kind of show off to other people. It's like a status thing without actually liking this person.
Peter: The very last section of the book is a rapid fire frequently asked questions. Most of it pretty dull or redundant with other sections. But I'm going to send you my favorites.
Michael: Is it called survey says?
Peter: No.
Michael: He says questions, “Will you date or marry a woman who smokes?” Answer “I wouldn't.” And most nonsmokers wouldn't either. The skin of women who smoke. [laughs] It's not where I would start. The skin of women who smoke ages prematurely and their lips are stained. It ages them internally too. And for me it exhibits a weakness and lack of understanding about their own health. Once we nonsmoking men see that a woman doesn't care about her own health, we immediately equate that to her inability to care for her man and her kids, most nonsmoking men will not tolerate a smoking woman. Not on a permanent basis. We'll sleep with you, but we're not taking you home. Why'd you put that in at the end?
Peter: I wanted to put in one piece of advice that I agree with.
Michael: We will fuck you.
Peter: It's so funny to me that instead of being like, “Hey, smoking causes lung cancer,” he's like, “Their fucking skin ages faster.” [Michael laughs] That's the first thing he says.
Michael: I also probably wouldn't date a smoker, but just because kissing a smoker feels like kissing a chimney. But also, first of all, I wouldn't say anything morally about smokers. And secondly, I wouldn't just throw in there like, I'll also fuck you though.
Peter: I also don't even dial a woman who occasionally smokes. No problem. I occasionally smoke. I don't give a shit.
Michael: But do you.
Peter: I'll have like a pack a year, maybe less.
Michael: Oh, is that why your lips are stained?
Peter: That's why my lips are stained.
Michael: And your skin has aged prematurely. I'm always saying this about you.
Peter: I know that it exhibits a weakness. Women won't take me home, but they will still fuck me. [Michael laughs]
Michael: That is actually perfect. You should smoke more. I feel like men would be like, “Oh, hell yeah. This is the shortcut.”
Peter: Next one. One of my favorites.
Michael: Question. “Do you prefer a woman in flats or heels?” Answer, “Heels baby, heels.” If we could get athletic shoes with heels for women, we would. It's just a really sexy thing to us. I don't know a single man who prefers women in flats. I've never run into one. We all think heels make your legs more beautiful and they make you walk more feminine and you too. And that's what we're attracted to. Again, whatever, man. Like what you like. But this is like a weirdly dirt bag thing.
Peter: The one, the bit of context here that's sort of missing when we're picking these out is that throughout the frequently asked question section, a lot of it is just sort of like, “Do men like this?” And he's like, “Men like different things.” Do what you like. There's a guy for you somewhere. But then it gets to this one and he's just too horny. He's like, “Heels. Heels.”
Michael: It's got to be heels.
Peter: It's got to be heels, baby.
Michael: These books are not edited. If someone came to me with a conspiracy theory that no one has read this book in full, I would probably believe it.
Peter: All right, another one I've sent you.
[laughter]
Michael: Question, “Do men like shopping?” Answer, “We'll go if you make us. And it's the only way we can spend our time with you. But it's not what we want to do. Think about it. The men's department is almost always on the first floor by the door, and always one of the smaller sections in the store. It's so we can get in and get out. You never walk in and see men rummaging through the sales racks and holding shirts up to their chests and openly asking if they'd look better in the blue or the green.”
Peter: Not openly, no.
Michael: We go in knowing exactly what we want and come out with it rarely anything more. That's what we like about shopping. Getting in and getting out. Doesn't Steve take a lot of care in how he dresses? Doesn't he wear flamboyant suits and stuff?
Peter: He does, he does. But I guess he must just have a stylist or something. I don't know.
Michael: He's constantly about trying to look good. This is a lot of advice to men. Of course, men like shopping. They just can't admit to it because they think shopping is female coded. This is all the bros doing intermittent fasting who don't want to admit that they're dieting.
Peter: Also, if you just change this, he's assuming clothes shopping. You can find the straightest guy in the world and go watch him shop for a truck and tell me that man doesn't like shopping.
Michael: If you think of sports betting as a shopping, I'm really into it.
Peter: This is one of the many parts of the book where it just felt like he was calling me gay, where he's just like, no real man would ever like shopping and gossip. And I'm like, “Oh, I saw it.”
Michael: Dressing nice and talking shit, the Peter Shamshiri story.
Peter: So that's all that I'm going to include from the book. We should briefly talk about the movie a couple years after the movie comes out? It's called Think Like a Man. It's not based on the book so much as it is about the book. The book is kind of the main character in the movie.
Michael: By what? Oh, it's like adaptation.
Peter: Yeah, sort of. It follows several couples, and the women find Steve Harvey's book. They're holding up his book, being like, Steve says we should be doing this.
Michael: Oh, weird. So, it's like an advertisement for the book, basically.
Peter: Fully an ad. It's fully an ad. And then the men realize what they're doing and try to fight back, but it backfires on them because Steve Harvey's advice cannot be defeated.
Michael: Peter, Peter what if there was a movie based on this podcast and it was just people who sucked? And then they found the podcast and they're like, now I don't read the Atlantic anymore.
[laughter]
Peter: Like, someone's holding up their Apple Podcast App, and it's like our logo, and it zooms in on it. You know, Michael and Peter say that this is all bullshit.
Michael: Thanks, Peter and Michael. And they jump in the air and we get freeze frame.
Peter: I also think it's probably worth just going over some Steve Harvey controversies.
Michael: Ooh. Yeah.
Peter: The thing about Steve Harvey is that he is fundamentally a dumb asshole. So, if you let him talk enough, he will hit a resting pace of about one controversy every one to two years. [Michael laughs] The most famous controversy is not really a problematic controversy. It's the fact that he hosted the Miss Universe competition and then announced the incorrect winner. Do you remember that? [laughs]
Michael: No.
Peter: [laughs] What?
Michael: They just said a random lady and then it wasn't her.
Peter: No. He announced the runner up as the winner and then had to be like it was a funnier version of the Moonlight La La Land.
Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Peter: It was down to Miss Colombia and Miss Philippines. And then he did a Twitter apology where he spelled both Colombia and the Philippines wrong. [Michael laughs] He was on a talk show when talking about why men cheat, he said, “It's because there are so many women out there willing to cheat with them.”
[laughter]
There was an appearance on the view where he was like, “There isn't a real man living that can live without one of you, meaning women. He doesn't exist.” And then the hosts are all like, “Well, what about gay men? What about gay men?” And Steve's like, “Well, real men. Fucking. Joy Behar is reiterating five times to him, like, gay men live without women and they're fine. And then at the end, Steve is like, “Yes, yes, you're right. Thanks for saying that.” [laughs]
Michael: What was your point then?
Peter: Right, there's so many, fuck. When we're talking about sexist things he's said publicly, it's just endless. This is also from 2017. This is an email that Steve Harvey sent the staff of his show.
Michael: He says, “Good morning, everyone. Welcome back. I'd like you all to review and adhere to the following notes and rules for Season 5 of my talk show. There will be no meetings in my dressing room. No stopping by or popping in. No one. Do not come to my dressing room unless invited. Do not open my dressing room door. “IF YOU OPEN MY DOOR, EXPECT TO BE REMOVED. I WANT ALL AMBUSHING TO STOP NOW. THAT INCLUDES TV STAFF.” You must schedule an appointment. I have been taken advantage of by my lenient policy in the past. This ends now, no more. Do not approach me while I'm in the makeup chair unless I ask to speak with you directly. Either knock or use the doorbell. I promise you I will not entertain you in the hallway. And do not attempt to walk with me. If you're reading this, yes, I mean, you everyone. Do not take offense to the new way of doing business. It is for the good of my personal life and enjoyment. Thank you all.”
Peter: This did end Ellen's career, but I don't feel like Steve Harvey's at risk of the same thing.
Michael: As an introvert, I have written versions of this email many times and never sent them.
[laughter]
Do not say hi to me. Do not expect me to be cute and make small talk.
Peter: I do think you could imagine that his life at work is just people constantly coming up to him with some question and problem. But it's just very funny that you can immediately clock that he's a nightmare.
Michael: He's like, “I'm doing self-care this year. Don't speak to me.” This is part of being like a millionaire public figure. It's like people stop and talk to you.
Peter: That's the thing, dude. It's like you're mega rich.
Michael: Also, you're running a company. The show is about you. You're the head of essentially an organization. Anyone who is in that position, people are going to stop you in the hall and bring up stuff. Parts of your job suck.
Peter: Right?
Michael: I have to hear about my fucking mispronunciation all the time. You don't hear me complaining about it on every episode, on every single episode.
Peter: You'd never hear us complaining about that. [Michael laughs] And I'm sure that if we did, it would cause you all to stop doing it, right?
Michael: It wouldn't encourage you.
Peter: Not to just do it more because you're all little rats.
[laughter]
I have one more complaint about this book. It's an important one. Four or five times in this book, Steve basically inserts the smile emoji, but he writes it out. He just writes the word smile after saying something.
Michael: Oh, he doesn't even use like colon, dash, parenthesis.
Peter: No, no, no
Michael: Just smile.
Peter: It's just like an m- and then the word smile. [Michael laughs] It's so bizarre that like the first time I was like, what is this? Like what is. I almost was like, was he doing a placeholder for the emoji again?
Michael: Again, he's got to just be voice memoing this, right? And he just said smile, expecting someone else to control eff it later and replace it with the emoji. And then no one read the text of this book and they just published it.
Peter: They're like, “Great job, Steve. We published it in full, no edits.” [Michael laughs] The other weird thing that dates this book is that maybe two or three times he references naughty emails. Oh, is that what 55-year-olds were doing in 2009? Just writing each other horny emails?
Michael: Forward. Re. Re. Re. Forward your boobs. That's how it was back then. [Peter laughs] early Internet days.
Peter: Right. They're writing out full emails and just like that.
[laughter]
Michael: I hope this email finds you well, between my legs, you'll find things going on.
[laughter]
Peter: Picking up where we left off last week, [Michael laughs] I walk into your bedroom dressed sexy. It's so funny that he can just walk in society the way that he does when he's [Michael laughs] such an out and out scumbag.
Michael: Blake Lively is listening to this episode. Like, really?
Peter: If it was just like, Steve Harvey, the host of Family Feud is actually an asshole, I'd be like, “Okay, whatever.” But his actual career is predicated on being this sort of truth teller who gives good advice, [crosstalk] practical advice.
Michael: Harsh truths.
Peter: Well, yeah, I mean, the way that it gets framed is like, “You might think that this is antiquated, but this is how things are.”
Michael: Right. The whole turn is, he's not saying it's good, he's just saying it's true.
Peter: Yeah. And the idea again, that the negative qualities that many men hold cannot actually be addressed.
Michael: Yeah.
Peter: This is the output of our masculinity and our desire to protect and provide or whatever. You can't interfere with that. You can only work around it. And, the obligation is on you to work around.
Michael: I will say in his defense, there's one decent piece of advice in this book, which is” Ladies, if you want to get rid of a weird man, start smoking.” [Peter laughs] He will fuck you. He will not call you afterwards which isn't that what ladies want?
Peter: If you have a Steve Harvey in your life, just put on flats. [Michael laughs]
[If Books Could Kill theme]
[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]
