What If We Judged Women’s Greatness Without A Different Lens? My Guest: Donna Orender

What happens when a player puts up a once-in-a-generation stat line and still gets overlooked?

That question sparked this conversation with Donna Orender, one of the most influential voices in sports, business, and women's leadership. It also reveals something deeper about the way women's achievements have often been evaluated through a different lens.

In this episode, Donna shares her journey from New York athlete to professional basketball player, sports executive, WNBA President, entrepreneur, and founder. We discuss the early days of women's professional sports, the challenges of building leagues before the world was ready to invest in them, and why progress is almost always driven by people willing to show up before recognition arrives.

Donna also shares the vision behind Generation W and the importance of creating environments where women and girls can see what is possible for themselves before the world tells them otherwise.

Whether you're passionate about sports, leadership, entrepreneurship, or creating meaningful change, this episode is a reminder that progress often begins with the courage to step onto a court, into a boardroom, or into a conversation where you don't yet see yourself represented.

Learn More

Generation W
Generation W

Upshot League
The Upshot League

About Donna Orender

Donna Orender is a former professional basketball player, business executive, author, and nationally recognized advocate for women's leadership. She served as President of the WNBA from 2005 to 2010, helping guide a period of significant growth and visibility for women's professional basketball. Following her tenure, she founded Generation W, a platform dedicated to connecting, inspiring, and advancing women through education, leadership development, and community engagement. Through her work across sports, business, and philanthropy, Donna continues to champion opportunities that empower women and girls to reach their full potential.

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Transcript

Childhood Fandom And Unequal Recognition

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Back in the 1900s, I was a diehard New York sports fan. My prom night, we watched the Rangers win the Stanley Cup before heading to the Fifth Avenue ballroom. The Yankees under Joe Torrey, my first petfish was named Donnie Baseball. And the Knicks, Go New York, go New York Go, is ingrained in my brain long before some of the parents of today's fans were even born. Sports weren't just entertainment when I was younger. They were culture, identity, ritual. But here's what's interesting. For all the sports I watched growing up, it wasn't until high school that I really saw girls play. When my sister Nikki made the basketball team, my dad, the father of four girls, being the kind of father who believed opportunity should be matched with investment, put a basketball hoop in our backyard the very next day. We were the only house filled with girls and the distinct sound of dribbling. And in my high school, the girls' team was better than the boys. They worked harder, they won more, they were incredible athletes, and yet they never received the same attention, recognition, or celebration. Their accomplishments felt smaller only because someone else decided they were. Fast forward to today, my daughter can turn on the television and watch women compete at the highest levels in basketball, soccer, tennis, golf, softball, volleyball, and more. Progress has happened. But recently, I heard Texas women's basketball coach Vic Schaefer passionately defending one of his players, Rory Harmon. He pointed out that she had accumulated 1,616 points, 977 assists, 659 rebounds, and 388 steals during her career. And according to Schaefer, no player in college basketball history had ever reached those combined benchmarks. Yet she was never named an all-American. And honestly, that made me angry. Not because of one award, because it reminded me how often women's accomplishments are still viewed through a different lens. How many women have had to be twice as good to get half the recognition? How many records have been set quietly? How many pioneers have built leagues, businesses, and careers before anyone thought they were worth paying attention to? And that's what we're going to tackle today.

Donna Orinder’s Path To Change

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Hi, I'm Suze here with your dose of culture, values, and identity with just enough chutzpah to tackle the topics others may avoid. My guest today is Donna Orinder. Donna has spent her life proving that sometimes the people who change the game are the ones who first have to fight for a place on the court. Long before she became one of the most influential executives in sports, Donna was a young athlete growing up in New York who refused to accept that certain opportunities weren't available to girls. When her high school didn't have a girls' tennis team, guess what? She tried out for the boys' team and became the first girl in school history to make it. She went on to start at Queen's College, then played professional basketball in the Women's Professional Basketball League, the first pro-women's basketball league in the United States. And when that league folded, she experienced firsthand both the promise and fragility of women's professional sports. But Donna wasn't done. She went from athlete to executive, helping shape some of the biggest organizations in sports. She served as the PGA Tour senior vice president and later became president of the WNBA. She spent years helping expand opportunities, visibility, and business growth for women in sports. And today she continues that mission through Generation W, empowering women and girls through leadership and purpose. She's also helping shape the future of women's sports once again through her involvement with the Upshot League. Donna's career has never been simply about sports. It's about possibility and leadership and creating opportunities for women to be seen, heard, and values. And today, I'm lucky enough to learn from someone who has spent decades helping move the conversation forward. Donna, welcome to Schmooz with Suze.

Playing Pro Before The World Cared

SPEAKER_00 3:58

It's long overdue that we've had this time, right? So I'm so glad to be with you. Thank you so much for making the time. So before we get into your remarkable career, I have to start with the most New York question possible. Were you a sports fan growing up? And who were you? Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

My dad was a sports fan, right? He used to read the papers when people used to actually hold them up. And so you remember, but there's my dad behind these papers, and I wanted to connect with him. And he was always reading the sports pages. And actually, that I can honestly say is the way is one of the reasons I got into sports because I really wanted to create a connectivity with my dad. So, yes, a big New York Mets fan, take your Yankees, please, and keep them. But listen, all in on all in on the Knicks.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

How could we not be these days? True story. True story. It's a legacy that we've been watching and waiting for it to happen. So you played professionally in the very first women's professional basketball league. What did that experience teach you about building something before the world is ready to fully support it? You know what's so interesting.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

The word key that you mentioned there is key is fully. What does that mean? You know, uh it was an incredibly exhilarating experience. I am to this day, I'm so proud to be able to say that I was a professional athlete. I played at the highest level of my sport and I got a professional athlete. I got paid for it. But that said, we had fans, right? You know, we might have played in different kinds of gyms and, you know, pennies were pinched for sure. But we did have a fan base. And um I think we forget that. It's not like what it is now, thankfully. Um, it is now more fully uh appreciated, and definitely there's been a huge cultural shift uh and an economic shift to accompany that to make what's happening in women's sports a reality that we all hoped we were, uh we would see one day.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

When the WBL folded, many people would have left sports. What made you stay connected to the industry? I I love sports.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

I think sports is one of the greatest things on this planet globally. It is a powerful connector of people. It's an elevator, it's an elevator, if you will, um for individuals, for self-confidence, self-reliance, learning all the important lessons on how to live and make your way in in this world. You know, I always like to talk about uh a ball speaking all languages, and it's something that actually um is great for my sons. It fortifies our daughters and it and um and it unites nations. So I think sports is a very powerful um tool to achieve so much. And uh, and matter of fact, I've devoted time of elevating sports as a way to really be a peacemaker around the world.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

I love that. That sounds so relevant, especially today when we think about all the different ways that people can define equity. And like you said, a ball is something that's easiest to obtain and with the right amount of grit, tenacity, practice. It's not necessarily about your economic background. Sometimes it's about who you are as a person and the team that you surround yourself with. So without a doubt. Without a doubt.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

You matter I just came back from giving a talk as part of an overall concert. Uh, concert, music's on my mind. An overall conference where the theme was uh business is a team sport.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

I think that's a really defining opportunity to give people that visual because in your experience, you've seen women's sports from virtually every angle, whether it's an athlete, an executive, an advocate, an entrepreneur now, you've seen how that perspective can align in almost any opportunity. Which one of those has shaped you or taught you the most?

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Well, I think they all have, but you've all I think you forgot uh one important one, Susie, and that's as a mom. I'm gonna get to that. As a mom, because as a parent, right? You could be the hated parent or or the loved parent, but as a parent, you learn a lot too. And I will say that my experience with my son Jacob in particular, who played Division I basketball and at Cal and then went on to play professionally overseas, um, it really shaped how I view this new upshot league in a in a really incredible way. Um it's always, uh even when I worked at the tour, athletes want to compete. I don't care what level you are, how old you are, if you're an athlete, you want to compete. And so the ability now to create an opportunity through the upshot league and seeing how my son overseas, they have, you know, division one, division two, division three, division four, some even have division five, the opportunity for every athlete to compete and for communities to love their athletes and their opportunity to aggregate, gather, connect, galvanize behind something they're passionate about is truly a gift. And um, I think that's what I've taken away most at every single level. The WNBA was extraordinarily challenging, one of the hardest jobs I've ever had. And yet, when I went to the arenas and sat with families and with kids and boys and girls, and you know, people say, Don't ever change the game. This is so wonderful. That just filled my soul. Um, and it still does, about what is so special about sport. And that is its power to connect.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

I feel you. I viscerally can feel you. And it's wild because yesterday I was talking to my husband, and I said, you know, we haven't been to the waves game yet, and the kids are going to camp. And I was, I know it's scheduling, scheduling. My kids are just now leading to camp and they had one event after another, every one of those games, and Ben pulled out his phone and he looked at the schedule for the two of us to go on a date night. And it was so relevant because I keep thinking as a mom, I was involved with youth athletics, and it was a very different perspective as a mom who never personally played. And it wasn't until I wanted to connect with my son more that I started to dribble the ball in the driveway. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about what success feels

The Women’s Sports Boom Is Real

SPEAKER_00 10:22

like. When you look at today's explosion of interest in women's sports, what feels different now compared to what you remember from 20 or 30 years ago?

SPEAKER_01 10:31

Uh, there's just this tremendous uh all-around enthusiasm and acceptance. It's funny, last night I did a little test. My husband and I went out to get a little bite to eat, and uh the restaurant had televisions. And I walked in and they had a baseball game and they had some highlights. And so I said to the manager, who happened to be a young female, I said, Would you mind putting on the WNBA game? And she said, Yeah, of course. And she did. And I watched all the guys in the bar and I said, Honey, did you see that? They're watching that now. They're pointing to it, they're talking about it. And it is part of the cultural conversation. As importantly as that, as a co-conspirator of success, um, women's sports has become an investable asset class. And, you know, there is a real, real viability to uh investment. Um, you know, when I was selling teams, they were 10 million. That speaks volumes to the world at large. And it and it's drawing in so much interest. I think I get a call about a new women's sports uh investment fund uh month or every other week. Um, it's pretty incredible.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

So, as a woman, were there moments in your career where you felt like you were representing all women in this predominantly male-dominated industry? Did you feel like there were times you had to push more or that you were more needing to persuade or just simply outperform expectations to get to that same status? I mean, by the time I met you, you've been a legend for as long as I know you. I don't know about that.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Um I would say probably yes. I mean, with a great deal of humility, yes to all of that. I think I felt like a lot of it was a litmus test on my own life. Um, that then was, you know, just blown up because there's so many other young girls who grew up like me, who had the same hopes and desires. And it wasn't even girls. I think I can say, you know, young boys, anybody who's been put in a position where the world tells them that they're lesser than. Um, and they don't say it out loud. They just do it by the way resources are sorted and the way you're covered in the press, and the way there's a snack here, and maybe uh, you know, a filled arena versus not here. I mean, there's just so many messages that the world will tell you that you're less important. And I think all of us, all of us, no matter who we are, in some way encounter that feeling. And I think to be able to really get behind that, understand, build that empathy and that human connection is something that elevates us all. And that's really the work behind Generation W, right? If you lift one, you lift us all. And um, sometimes I'm just surprised between the connectivity of that 15 years of work and how much it so beautifully plugs into the Upshot League today.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

As you know, I'm a tremendous fan of Generation W. Um, I remember when I first got here hearing about it. And then when I started to work with teenage girls, the very first thing I said is, I need a copy of Wowsdom for every teenage girl that I know. Um, and I was really lucky that I was able to give that out and share that experience.

Building Generation W And Belonging

SPEAKER_00 13:48

What inspired you to create Generation W?

SPEAKER_01 13:51

I actually it was really an outgrowth of my work at the WNBA. I uh I learned how the world felt about women and girls. I learned about how men felt about women and girls, the good, the bad, the ugly, but I also learned about women and the good, the bad, the ugly. And I just knew that when I left the WNBA ultimately, that there would always be a place in my heart that I would want to work on behalf of women and girls. And um, and so when I left, started my own company. One of the first things I did was I want to build something here in my hometown of Jacksonville, Florida. I am a New Yorker, as you know, um, but came here and this is my home now. And um, I always believe in the genius of the and, not the tyranny of the or, as our, as our great friend would say, uh, Mr. Collins has written many, many, many years ago. And um, and so just started and said, listen, there are great women everywhere, there are great communities everywhere that are looking for great talent. So, how do we, how do we, how do we get that opportunity to connect with each other? Women who are looking to expand their voice, looking to seek and elevate opportunity, communities looking to do more and do better. Um, how do you make all of that come together? And so while we um began as a place where it was about educating and sparting, connecting women, we added girls, but it's really for everyone. It's in the service of building community, which is about elevating all people: men, women, boys, girls, whoever you are.

Work Life Tradeoffs And Motherhood

SPEAKER_00 15:21

You built a remarkable career while raising a family. Can you tell me a little bit about what sacrifices don't get talked about enough? What opportunities you think need more of our investment? Was there ever a moment where you questioned whether balance is actually possible?

SPEAKER_01 15:37

You know it's so funny. I think the question we get today more often than not, still, a matter of fact, I had this conversation the other day. Everywhere I go, it was a young woman who here in town who's uh has a business, she, you know, she has a manager business, she's got a side hustle. How do you balance? And I always say, like, what does balance mean? You know what I mean? I sometimes I think about that um that statue or uh the blind, you know, the the scales of justice, and and you know, it's blind. You know, we're blind to balance because uh I think life calls upon us to be perfectly, imperfectly, perfectly imbalanced. That we have to do certain things um more focused at certain times. So the idea that so sometimes I say, what do you mean by balanced? Is there enough time for you to be healthy? That's important. Have I sacrificed that? Absolutely. Have I done it recently? Absolutely. Is it the right thing to do? No. Are there times I didn't see my kids enough? Absolutely. Have we talked about it? Absolutely. Does it balance out by the fact that we live the life we do and they've had the opportunity to have? Yes, to a certain degree, right? But I think all of us do also want, you know, the grass is always greener. Oh, mom, why can't you be the mom baking the cookies? Well, I I could bake your cookies today, but then I just didn't really have enough time, right? Oh, what do you mean, Mom that Alana? She goes to work too. And it's so funny, all the perceptions, all the expectations that we're supposed to have or see. Um, you know, you just work through them every single day. And um I was I was just looking as I was waiting for you, looking at some pictures of my kids as when they were little, and how much I just love to have my hands on their neck and rub their soft skin and how much I miss that. Um, I didn't say how much I missed that. I miss it now because you know your kids grow up. And um every every experience we had through the hard times and the easier times has been worth it. Um, because I just love the humans that they are continuing to become.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

What leadership lessons would you say came from motherhood as opposed to something on the court or in the boardroom?

SPEAKER_01 17:57

I, you know, it's so funny because when my kids were younger and you're parenting little kids, you realize that we're all little kids at heart. I mean, in a sense, right? We are we're needy and we want, and you know, we have expectations and uh we want to achieve. And it's like it's really interesting how much I would think about. Well, this is what I would say to my kids. Yes, we're all adults, and there's, you know, we pretend we have this or all this other stuff. But at the end of the day, we're just human with real human needs. And so um I think I try to be recognize the need to be professional, but also understand that being part of a family and a work family uh where people can feel connected and have have feel a sense of purpose. What is one of the reasons I wanted to create Generation W. I wanted a place, feel a place where there were good jobs and people really had a connection to a sense of purpose, something bigger than themselves. Because I do think that's one of the real keys to finding meaning in in this world.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

So you've had all this experience under your belt, and your children have had the privilege to watch at this journey. What do you hope that they take away that they learn from this?

SPEAKER_01 19:07

I think they have. I mean, I think they've learned a lot. MG, my husband and I talk about this a lot as we look at them. They're both really hard workers. Uh they're they're ambitious in a way that's focused on purpose. Um, they're about learning. They're they are citizens of the world. Uh, they're mentors in their own right. Um, they embrace their heritage and who they are. And um I don't think I could love them any more than I do today. And I felt that way when they were just born. So I think we're on a good trajectory here.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

So, whether we're talking about sports or we're talking about Generation W, you often speak about leadership. It's sort of your superpower to invest and inspire not just girls and women, but community in general. What's the difference between managing people and truly leading them?

SPEAKER_01 20:02

I'm not a great manager in that way, right? It's not that I can't do the details that I want. I like to kind of set out the vision. Like, here's what we see, here is where we're going, here's some ways we can get there. And then, you know what, you have teams that will figure out and we can monitor our progress. I'm working on a project right now, so this is becoming very, it's very personal right now in terms of how we get from A to B. What does that look like? Um, I have definitely standards of excellence. I am a big believer that it doesn't take that much more time, if any. If you got a minute, you can come up with excellence in a minute, and you can come up with not excellence in a minute. Um, but that doesn't mean you can't be making mistakes or that you're not sorting through ways to get to excellence. Um, but I think wanting to be excellent and put out something that's great work is important. And then you, you know, you can have debates about what's great work, and I've been involved in that too. Um, but there is a difference between putting in the effort uh and not putting in the effort.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

Is there anything that you can think of when you reflect back on where women's sports is today that you can say with confidence, young Gadonna would be so impressed by this? I'm not sure if I I understand. So if we look at where you started in your career, right? You were competing on the boys' tennis team, and then you were beating the boys who played tennis. Right. Then you had to start in a league that was brand new as a concept, and now, like you said, once a month you're getting a call about a new team in the women's space. Is there something that you, as that tennis team player, would be like, damn. Oh, there's no doubt.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

There's no doubt. I I yes, of course, of course,

Dreaming Past What You Can See

SPEAKER_01 21:59

of course. I listen. There was this one moment I was in college and um my team was going to be playing, I was I was 16, just about to turn 17, uh, and we're playing in the in a historical moment, the first women's basketball game ever be played at Madison Square Garden. So as a New Yorkers, you can and worldwide, right? It's the Mecca. And I thought about that last night as well as I watched the Knicks. And so they CBS sent their whole like network sports team to interview us. So at that point in time, there was this wonderful woman named Phyllis George. God rest her soul. And Phyllis, who like, you know, like your God got over, you're a young athlete. You're like, oh my God, it's Phyllis George. And she came up to me, she goes, let me ask you a question. Did you ever think about playing professionally? And I said to her, you know, it's hard to dream about something you can't see. That's not in my purview. I cannot see that. So the answer would be no. And I'll always, always remember that. Because three years later, I got a call after I graduated. Do you want to play professional basketball? And I was off and running, right? And like, would you wanna like and the WNBA wasn't there yet, right? Would you want to lead a women's profession? It wasn't there to be seen. Would you want to start that wasn't be there to be seen? And I think one of the greatest leadership or life lessons we can all learn is we always talk about being what we can see is helpful. But so much of what we can be is what we don't see. And we should never, ever, right, short our vision or our sense of wanting to excel or succeed or come up with a new idea because this world is made up of so many things we have not seen.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

That's such a fabulous point. Uh, especially when working with women and girls, there are a lot of skills and a lot of career paths that just weren't known to most women and girls. Do you remember that movie uh Flash Dance? Oh my gosh, I love that movie. And she took off the helmet and it was a girl welding. To me, that is one of those iconic moments of my entire life where I was, we really are. And I always knew that women could do anything. I was raised by grandmothers who survived Auschwitz, and my mother was an immigrant at 18 when she got to this country. So I knew the story of women, but to see it on a screen, that giant was the first moment that I was like, wow, what else are we not aware of? So when you look back, are there any lessons from the early days that you think investors, owners, executives, players should not forget because they weren't available then doesn't mean that there's no opportunity moving forward.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

Correct. Correct. Right. So um I there was there was this this business thing where people would come in at the WNBA and they want to see our PLs. And it's you know, it's it's logical when you're investing in something. Let me see how everyone's performing. And I'm like, I'm I don't really want to show you those. They go, what do you mean you don't want to show you those? I said, because that's not what I'm selling, right? I I'm selling what this can be, and it can be. These models are tied to a legacy. It's kind of like where AI is today, in a sense. And we that's a whole other discussion. But you know, I don't I'm not selling you a legacy business model. I want to sell you the pro the promise and the execution of the next iteration of this business model. And you know, it took 30 years to get there, but we're there.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

It's interesting what you just said. My husband, when we met, he's been a lifelong sports fan in his own right. He's from another city, from Baltimore, with his own teams. And when we met, I was a fan of my teams. My husband was the one who imparted to me the wisdom that this is not just about the sport, this is a narrative. This is storytelling in real time. So as you work with those girls and women in Generation W, what stories, what new paths are they charting for themselves because you've made those opportunities available? The world knowledge, not just the word knowledge. We talk about literacy, but there's exposure.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

Oh, yeah. Well, we listen, we bring them, we bring them to the Mayo Clinic, we bring them to um the that gosh, that great food company. We bring them, we bring them to all sorts of different opportunities. But you know what I'm finding more than anything, Susie, today is how much joy and surprise they're finding in meeting other girls who they never would have met before or become friends with.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

And they're finding a real sense of belonging in that. So my hope has been with this launch of the podcast to desilo community. Essentially, I thought to myself, I have a story that comes from my informed background, and I'm curious about other people's story, what unites us. Just because we don't live in the same neighborhood or the same state or the same borough when I was a kid, it felt like it was accessible. You could get on a subway and I could get from Brooklyn to Queens, Brooklyn to the Bronx. They didn't feel as far as now my new hometown feels when I moved here. Jacksonville is the largest city by landmass with some of the not best transportation. Are you now able to curate these women and girls so that they can see what they don't yet know? Oh, all the time.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

Yes, we do that a lot. We have, you know, we have an in-school programming, whether they meet twice a month, once a month. We take them on monthly trips, they have community projects. Of course, we have our big crazy generation wow event, right? Fueled by the positive and the possible. Um, that happens once a year. Uh, and then so this the ability to connect with each other, we try to create that um as often as we can. Uh, we do a thing called the vision board, which is one of my favorite events that happens um December. I think we're moving it to January this year. We have over 300 girls. They build their own vision boards. They come from all different schools, they're not allowed to sit with their school friends, you know. So you you imagine teenage girls are going to look at you like say, but you know, we get our feedback back. The number one thing is I met new friends today. And just think about what does that mean? It means they learned to overcome a fear of connection, right? They learned how to converse with somebody new. They learned to take down a barrier or take off a mask that allowed them to actually say, I have a new friend. I mean, the lessons there, and as they're doing this, they're sharing their dreams with each other. It is a fantastic event. So um there, you know, it's funny. Sometimes I want to say, okay, let's identify the differentiating aspects psychologically, sociologically, culturally of girls growing up in each of the um decades. And yet, you know, that that commonality of how we're human is still always there. We still want to be loved, we still want to be seen, we still want to be heard, we still want to achieve. All those things have not changed. How we do it, maybe the context has changed, right? We didn't have social media then. Yes, has that changed us? Yes. But those fundamental values are still at our core.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

So tell me, what is a world that fully values women actually look like in your purview?

SPEAKER_01 29:41

Um, I'm not gonna say it's perfect. Oh, but women do it perfect. We're imperfect as well. Um, I do think about peace in the world with greater participation by women. I think that looks differently than it does right now. I think you can look at the example in Rwanda after their genocide and their civil war, and they built a government that was predominantly women and how stable it had been because of that. Um so I think that there is the possibility of more virality around kindness, and that's not to say men aren't kind. I think some of the greatest people I know are kind men. Um, but I do think that there is a different kind of balance in terms of um the sensibility and the value of people.

SPEAKER_00 30:33

So back to balance. And what we talked about earlier was as a working mom or as a career woman, um, those things are not mutually exclusive. It's just a matter of which balls are the glass balls that you have to protect and which are the rubber balls that you can bounce. And they change.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

Yeah. So your glass balls can become the rubber ones, rubber can become the glass. Like it all, it's it's a constantly shifting, like the sands under your feet, it's constantly shifting.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

So you're investing in building confidence in women. How do you navigate from confidence to conviction? How do you give the tools in addition to the vision board and the manifesting?

SPEAKER_01 31:13

We give them, we we give them um opportunity, and then we have a curriculum of 31 different lessons, and we we anchor them around. Okay, now I'm gonna test myself. We anchor them around the following confidence, connection, courage, curiosity, which is one of my favorites, and um community.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

I love that. And I love your candor because you touched on the things that are not so bright and glowing, as well as the things that are opportunities for us to make progress

Confidence, Conviction, And The Learning Reframe

SPEAKER_00 31:52

in. So let me ask you, you've heard the expression imposter syndrome?

SPEAKER_01 31:57

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

Mm-hmm. And is there a possibility that you're working on getting that concept out of the mind of a whole generation of women and girls before they even learn what that means?

SPEAKER_01 32:11

And you know, it's women and girls, and I don't see men. I don't think I think all of us in some way. Uh, you know, my thought about this. Um, somebody asked me to speak on this once, and I really thought about it. And I thought impossible imposter syndrome in some way is um there's a word I want. We all start from somewhere and have to do things we don't know. And so if we can reframe that as this is my entry learning period, right? When you started doing what you did, you didn't know, you know, you could say, oh, I feel like I'm an imposter. No, you can say that. What you should be saying, and we all give each other grace, is I am in a space of learning. And I'm gonna learn and I'm gonna get reps, as we like to say in the athletic industry, to the place where I'm feeling more confident that I actually have experience and can move my skill set forward and feel confidence in myself because that's really what it is. And so I it's not real, you know, I don't think we should have an imposter syndrome. I think we should have this grace period that says, okay, I'm going into something new and I'm gonna learn that, and I'm gonna try to solicit all those people around me to help me learn it. And I think when you reframe it, it takes it from being this like, oh my God, woe is me, I'm nothing, to wow, you know what? I am here, a person with tremendous potential, pouring my heart and soul into learning something new that I am going to expand and grow and contribute.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

I think those are the two words that I want to take with me today: tremendous potential. If we think of ourselves as a consistent work in progress and we're getting our reps in, I love that reference and analogy because it reminds me back to my sister with the basketball hoop in the backyard. There were boys in our neighborhood who played every day. None of them made any teams, but they would consider themselves athletic. My sister practiced all the time, and she didn't consider herself an athlete.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

Yeah, that's true. It's the same thing with golfers, right? They're guys who play. And I do a lot of work, I've done a lot of work with professional women golfers, but just golf in general for a long, long, long time. And it would be like, okay, women were just intimidated. And you know, we're we're some of us tend to be more rule followers than others, and we want to be good at it, and we don't we want to know the rule, we want to know how we act and behave. And they think all these men are great because they look so good. And then I asked, I said, what do you think the average golfer score is? It's a hundred. And it doesn't matter, and it doesn't matter, right? So it doesn't mean that we change the way we want to view ourselves in the game, but it takes some of the pressure off, right? It takes some of the pressure off. But yeah, this idea that I am not a golfer. And so when a woman comes to, I'm not a golfer, I'm like, let's reframe that. Like you said to me, you're you are an athlete. You are a golfer, you're the same golfer as all these guys here that come to all of our golf courses and and play. You're you're you you you have the same skill set, trust me. You're fine, you're good. You are a golfer.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Such an important note to take. As a mom of a daughter, I am constantly checking my words and my language, and everything is in the present and future tense. Nothing is in the past tense, and I don't remind her of what things used to be. I don't even want her to know. Let her grow up and let her do the research on AI and see how far we've come. As far as she's concerned, there's always been possibility and opportunity for women and girls.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

We just

Title IX, Protecting Progress, Best Advice

SPEAKER_01 35:39

I know. But let I will say this on that, Susie, to you being a huge fan and advocate for Title IX and really loving Billie Jean King beyond for what she has done and continues to do. Um understanding that it hasn't always been like this, and that we do make need to make efforts to preserve rights and opportunities. They're not just given to us. We have it's like no different than democracy. We have to work for it. And so I want all young girls to know what it was like so that they know what they do have is something that people really fought for, uh, men and women alike. My first phone call I got when I went to the WMBA was from Senator Birch Bye, who was a co-signer and creator of Title IX. And he wanted to make sure that I knew, right, what I was taking over, which is kind of cool. Um, so I I in that way, I think understanding legacy um is important.

SPEAKER_00 36:35

If you had one piece of advice to give women, girls, future athletes, current athletes, what would the takeaway be? What is Donna's message? It's funny.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

Um I have I'm looking over here because I keep bunches of. It depends on my mood for the day. I have a couple, but generally I like to say have the have the courage of your convictions. Live into the courage of your convictions. And then also that your um, oh, there's another one I have, you know, your legacy, your history does not necessarily have to be your future.

SPEAKER_00 37:11

I serve on the board of Pace Center for Girls Jacksonville. We have an upcoming waves game that benefits Pay Center for Girls Jacksonville, and that's one of those core values that we try to impart to every girl. Your past does not define your future. You're the architect of your future house. And so I thank you so much. I know it's long overdue, but your candor, your commitment and investment in equity, opportunity, women and girls specifically. I know you keep throwing it out to the boys because you're a boy mom and I have one of each. And so I try not to play favorites, but for taking the time to really dribble the talk and not just walk it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 37:56

Oh no, yeah, yeah. No, no, it's uh it's a privilege, honestly. It's really just a privilege. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 38:03

As I reflect on today's conversation, I keep coming back to a simple truth. Progress doesn't happen because someone grants permission. Progress happens because someone decides to show up anyway. And Donna, you didn't wait for a girls' tennis team. You tried out for the boys' team. You didn't wait for professional opportunities to magically appear. You joined that women's basketball league as soon as the opportunity was presented to you. So tell me, how do you think girls should grasp every opportunity at leadership and what lesson? Ooh, ooh. I thought you were done asking me questions, Susie. No, I just realized that. One more. That is true. As you work with women and girls today, how can you impart to them the confidence and the conviction that just because you're the first, that means that you won't be the last. And you should take that opportunity, even if you don't think that you will be, could be, should be.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

You know, it's interesting. I will say there's an image I carry with me. And I were when I was much younger, I was invited to go to this women's conference, which was not at the time very popular. It was a small group. And there's a woman who actually was a consultant for the FBI or the CIA, and I was so impressed with her. And now people have heard it, but she always told me, she always gave us that image of the bag of the bucket of crabs, and how you know the crab would try to get out, and then it would reach its claw down to try to bring out the next one, um, as opposed to being a crab that would push down the next one. And you might say, Oh, crabs are a terrible image, but I always feel I can always see that crab reaching down, pulling out the next one, and having a responsibility to do that, right? We have a responsibility to help each other and um and promote each other. And uh, as my dearest mentor, loving lifelong friend Jerry, Geraldine Lebourne says, right? If you can't toot your own horn, toot somebody else's. And I think all of that is part of creating this um, I guess, sense of opportunity and connectedness that helps elevate us all.

SPEAKER_00 40:30

All right, now I'm done asking you questions because you closed on a brilliant, brilliant thought. Every generation benefits from people that are willing to go first. And as someone whose astrological sign is cancer, the crab is actually very special to me. And I will never forget what you just said about reaching down to pull up the next crab and help them up because sometimes I am kind of crabby. Aren't we all? Believe me, aren't we all? So my daughters growing up in a world where women athletes are more visible than ever, and that didn't happen by accident. It happened because women like you, Donna, spent decades building, advocating, leading, and refusing to accept that excellence should be overlooked and the work isn't finished. There are still stories that deserve more attention, records that deserve more recognition, and athletes who deserve their flowers while they're still competing. But we're further along because people like you showed us what persistence looks like and that matters. So thank you. Thank you. And flowers to you for doing what you do. Thank you, Susie. My

Honorable Mensch And Final Goodbye

SPEAKER_00 41:35

privilege. Now it's time for our honorable mention. A mench is someone who shows up with integrity, responsibility, and heart. And this episode's honorable mention is Isaiah Oliver. Some leaders walk into a room and command attention. Others walk into a room and create space for everyone else to be heard. Isaiah and his locks has mastered the rare art of doing both. As president of the Community Foundation of Northeast Florida, he carries the responsibility of stewarding resources, relationships, and community trust. Yet what stands out most is not his title, it's his humility. In a world where leadership is often measured by volume, Isaiah leads with thoughtful questions, deep listening, and a genuine commitment to ensuring that opportunity is not reserved for a select few, but accessible to every corner of our community. What I admire most is that he understands philanthropy is not simply about money, it's about possibility, about seeing potential in people before they fully see it in themselves. It brings wisdom without ego, conviction without arrogance, and a deep belief that communities grow stronger when leaders build bridges instead of barriers. And for that, I want to give Isaiah Oliver his flowers as this week's honorable mensch. Love the man. Love the man. Loves you too, I'm sure. That will do it for us today. Thank you for joining me for another episode of Shmoose with Suze. If this conversation made you think, feel, or see something a little differently, share it because these conversations, they matter. Follow along on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube for your daily dose of chutzbah. I'm Suze, your well informed smart ass reminding you what's an envelope if not for pushing. Stay inspired and inspiring.