Behind the Cabinets: The Real Work of Building a Trades Business with Brandon Laney

Most people see a finished kitchen and assume the business behind it runs like clockwork. We sit down with Brandon Laney of Progressive Cabinets to talk about what it really takes to run a high-end custom cabinetry company: the late nights, the constant problem solving, and the pressure of knowing your name is on every door, drawer, and install.

Brandon shares how he grew up in a cabinet shop, pursued computer networking, then pivoted when the 2008 economy changed what felt “safe” to build a career on. We get into the nuts and bolts of small business growth in the trades, including outsourcing early production, deciding when to bring work in-house, and how a CNC upgrade can expand capacity. Along the way, he explains why word-of-mouth marketing is still the lifeblood of a custom cabinet shop, and why strong relationships with homeowners can be a competitive advantage you can’t copy.

We also talk leadership and real-life balance. Brandon breaks down what he hires for (soft skills, reliability, attention to detail), how he keeps morale up by being in the trenches with his team, and why the myth of the “rich business owner with endless vacations” misses the point. He offers honest advice for anyone feeling stuck or overwhelmed: slow down, pray or pause, and call another owner who’s been through the same roller coaster.

If you care about entrepreneurship, skilled trades, woodworking, custom cabinets, and building a business that lasts, subscribe for more conversations like this, share the episode with a friend, and leave a review so more builders and owners can find us.

Contact info:
progressivecabinetsllc.com
brandon@progressivecabinetsllc.com

Thanks for Listening. You may contact me or our team at https://billgilliland.biz/

All the best!
Bill

Please hit the subscribe button, leave us a 5 star review,  and share this podcast. You can reach me at williamgilliland@actioncoach.com or at https://billgilliland.biz/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Good day, everyone. Welcome to this week's episode of Epic Entrepreneurs. I am Cliff McRae with Agricultural Business Rome Partners, where we work with local business owners to turn big ideas into real scalable growth. Today I'm excited to be joined by Brandon Laney with a Progressive Cabinet. So Brandon, how are you doing today? Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much for being here. So let's go ahead and jump right in. So for those of you who may not know it yet, who is Brandon Laney and what is Progressive Cabinets?

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Yeah, so um Progressive Cabinets. Um Custom Cabinet Shop. I've been in business for um almost 11 years, uh this month actually. Uh but I've grown up doing cabinets pretty much my whole life, so uh that's probably my learning is still uh um done cabinets. My dad has a cabinet shop still. Um do a little bit different things, so we you know kind of split up years ago, but uh all on good terms. Um we have done commercial eventual. Right now we've been focusing more on uh high-end custom uh residential cabinets, and uh we dabbled in a little bit of closets, uh we do a little bit of uh little bit of commercial. Uh just kind of depends on what's uh what the demand is in the market, but uh residential's been what we want to do. I like doing uh the best best work we that we can, like the uh relationships with homeowners. So uh yeah, that's what we kind of did in a nutshell.

From Tech School To Cabinetry

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Okay, okay. So take us back to the very beginning. You know, what made you say, yep, I'm doing this, I'm starting that business?

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Um, well, I actually uh like I said, I grew up doing it, so I thought I was gonna do something else. I actually had gone to um technical college, um, got a degree, associate degree in computer technology, was gonna do uh actually had my Cisco certification to do computer networking, and um at some point was going to like I guess Fabrice was kind of always my plane B, I guess. Um and I got to where I almost started a business doing like home networking and things, just like all before the the the small home things that we know is today, I guess. And uh 2008 happened and the economy tanked, and I thought that's kind of the last thing people's gonna put in their house because technology updates itself so fast. And I thought, well, I do I love math and I like being able to figure out how things I learned in school, which a lot of times you don't see how things that you teach in school, you have to use them in the real world, uh, at least in math. Uh but I was able to figure out a lot of things I was learning in school, um calculus and trade and things that I could actually use in cadetry, um, so that sparked an interest more. And uh just really thought that um uh like I said, I I like doing uh real nice work for people, like a challenge. Um so when I you know come up with certain things, you know, hidden hidden bookcase and just crazy things that people come up with, I'd like to be able to solve those. Uh so I was doing that for my dad for a while. Uh ran his shop for about 10 years, I believe. Um so uh yeah, that's kind of where things started, I guess. And uh decided, like I did, I guess I slowly became more and more passionate about it. Whatever I'd do nice work, and well, a problem on the back is nice. Uh I don't think it's all for that. Um I just like being able to solve problems, I guess. Um so yeah, I fast forward a little bit, I was doing flow raw, I was doing uh walk on the side, uh nights and weekends. Uh it kind of gets old quick. Um and I kind of always thought about like doing, you know, my my dad's business would expand, but he always wanted to stay small. Um and I get that. Um business sometimes that I just want to go flip over. But uh um I kind of had um before I really like dove into it deep, uh actually was um kind of thinking about becoming uh a missionary overseas, and I thought well, where is God leading me? And uh I thought, you know, the the I felt like the connections that I had and and everything that it it can be both, and that maybe I could run a business here and uh and be able to support missions overseas and trips and uh things like that. So uh it's kind of where what led me to.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

So if you had to start again from absolute scratch, you know, let's say no brand, no clients, no safety net, what would you do differently the second time around?

SPEAKER_00 5:41

Um that's a good question. Um I probably would um try to outsource a little bit more thing. Well, very first started, the type of cabin that I would do, I I do a European-style box, frameless box, um, and you actually have to have you know pretty accurate machinery to it to be able to do that. So I did outsource to another shop cutting parts at first, uh, probably the first three years. Um but uh yeah, there was probably some other things I I should have like outgrew that more. Um I started seeing that the shop that was cutting for me, you know, could potentially be um, I mean, they look they're kind of well a competitor, uh, but if they start to see me more as a competitor, then they could start uh you know cutting how much they do for me to you know, cutting my legs out from under me. So I start thinking really quick, like I need to bring as much out as I can in-house uh instead of like rolling on that relationship and just trying to make it where I could go longer without having to make large investments. Um so I invest in right machinery, but I just make it where um you just you have a lot of overhead. I think I could have maxed it out a little bit farther and uh made it last a little longer on that relationship. I'll still have a good relationship with the shop, but I I could have just rode that just a little bit longer, I think.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

So, what's a lesson you'd say you learned the hard way as a business owner that no one really prepares you for?

SPEAKER_00 7:21

Um I think a lot of people um I mean growing up, I kind of saw a lot of stuff from my dad. Um and uh it's people ask me a lot, like, you know, oh well, uh, because I mean he was as far as business goes, he was self-tall. I think that's about a small business. You just kind of you start building a uh a side gig and it turns into a full-fledged business, um, and you just kind of learn as you go. And that's what my dad was. Um and uh I did learn you know some some things, you know, cabinetry-wise, uh with him. I've I've you know run and expanded on that. Um so you know, nothing, no show to him. But um I also learned a lot of things, you know, in whether it's cabinets or just in business in general, of things not to do. Um so that was that was good. So I always kind of had this you know idea of how things were gonna be that you know it might take late nights and weekends, and you're you're probably gonna work more hours than your employees are or something. You know, at the end of the day, you know, my name's on the product and I've got to meet customers' needs, you know, an employee can quit and go work somewhere else. Um but uh yeah, it's I I I think that's a big thing that people don't realize, especially as going from an employee to an employer or something, is they don't realize the hours that it takes, especially in the beginning, to just try to get a business off the ground. Um you know, starting a business from scratch, uh, is really difficult because you don't have the systems and processes in place, and you're just trying to build all that stuff, um, it can be a little difficult.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

Okay. So, what's one common myth people believe about running a business that makes you laugh now when you hear it?

Work Boundaries, Family, And Unplugging

SPEAKER_00 9:19

Oh yeah, like you know, you got it made, you know, they think that you got all this money, you got uh all the time in the world going on on vacations and things like that. And um I guess uh it depends on my co-charges with employees, uh uh to me, it's probably to my detriment, uh so my mystery won't have that bad, but uh uh my friends are uh kind of like friendly than me, so they don't know a lot of what's going on. Um some things need to stay hidden from them, I guess. Uh but they they seem high and low in the struggles and things. So for the most part, they they would if uh if it's you know, if if I'm having an off day or something like that, they might realize that like, oh yeah, he probably stayed up until three or four in the morning getting a job there, or whatever it is, so they they kind of get it. Um but it seems to be like whenever something new comes in, a new hire, they haven't seen all that kind of stuff yet, and so they just expect that like you know, I've got it all figured out and and everything's perfect, and uh that that is not the case. I think uh uh there's a uh a guy we've done some work with, I'd go to church with a guy. He's 73, he's out of business for 40 something, 40-something years, and uh still the same shows. We were just talking like a couple weeks ago, and he's tired of some good chief of employees, insurance. And I asked him, I said, Well, how you seem like you better figure it out, you know, even for me looking at him, but I thought there's got to be some things, and I asked him, How long have you worked? He's like about 60, 65, and he's 73 years old. Um I know it's probably ready to try to build systems and things to to get out of there. Um and I think he's probably called up at some point, but like right now I've got multiple employees out of either sickness or sickness in a fan or something. So when it comes down to it, like I said, you're not gonna business, so he's having to do what he has to do and get back in there like he was in his you know 30 or whatever, and uh and do it like it's like it's from scratch just because he's gotta make sure business keeps going. So it's not always all right.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

So be honest, are you naturally more of an entrepreneur or an employee at heart?

SPEAKER_00 11:46

Um probably more of a employer at heart. Um I know like you know, being more of an entrepreneur, some people they just love creating businesses. Um mine just came out of, I guess, the love for cabinetry, so I don't get to do as much because I need to work on the business, and sometimes I'll push to the side uh because I'd love to be out in the shop, I'd rather be with customers. Um and so to make that transition has has been a little difficult. Um but uh I enjoy parts of of uh you know the the business side of it as well. I've grown like that a little bit more, but um I I I don't see myself as wanting to try to create multiple businesses. I think the one I have, I just want to make it work and that's it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

So how do you personally handle stepping away from the business, you know, like taking a vacation?

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Um I try to uh I try to just get far enough ahead to where um I can take the time off. Uh usually if it's um I usually just try to take longer weekends if if possible. But if it's something that I'm taking a week off, um or if I've been on a mission trip or something for two weeks, um you know, in that case, I usually will still have my computer with me or something in case something goes wrong, but I'll try to get enough work stacked up where the guys can can uh get get things done without me. Um depends on what time sometimes it's been harder because how I have the right people in place. Uh other times it's been pretty easy. Just you know, here you go. I'm I'm leaving and they take care of it. So um yeah, it just kind of depends on the personal time.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

Yeah, so so how do you handle uh unplugging in the evening? Are you are you typically at 6, 7 p.m.? You you turn your phone off, you're done for the day, or sounds like you do you do work around the clock though, compared to what you said before.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

Yeah, um, I kind of find that uh I'm more than nine hour. Um but uh I've got four kids, so it is it's it's kind of hard to balance out the right schedules. So getting work done during the day, you know, and during the day, you know, business is going on, so you got phone calls and emails and all the things, um, and then you got you know after school sports and everything. So it's usually at night when everything's settled down. If I get that second morning, uh I'll usually try to push through because everybody's in bed, nobody's calling me, and I can get a lot more done that way. Um but uh yeah, sometimes I just whether I get an arm, um I'm just I'm too tired and not to know it'll be better if I just get more sleep. Uh I do try a lot at least far about unplugging or whatever. Um I had started probably about a year and a half ago where I made it like utilize the do not disturb on my phone. Um and I started putting that on, so really at 5.30, unless they're my favorites uh customers, nobody can really call me. Um I might see a message and decide when we respond back or not, but I I try to just cut all that off about 5.30 in the afternoon. So if I do have some work, we're just kind of finishing up for the day, and that's it. Um I try to balance as much as I can, but I don't think there's a perfect work-life balance. Sometimes you just gotta put in more work, other times you can relax.

Word Of Mouth Growth

SPEAKER_01 15:28

Alright. So looking back, what do you attribute most to your growth in your business so far?

SPEAKER_00 15:36

Um I would say word of mouth. Um I think uh the way you mean the reason you need to connect it was uh through BNI. Um so I'm in the B9 group, I get work from that. Uh most of it was just word of mouth, just trying to uh sometimes I reach out to contractors individually, but um, it's just really just been past customers driving that. Um and uh yeah, that's I I would say that more on a spiritual level. I I mean I I fully think God's in been in control. So there's been times now I'm thinking I'm gonna just close the doors and I get the the perfect job at the perfect time. So um that's uh I I don't want to belittle that at all because that has really been a big part um of my success. I think you know he's God's just provided whenever uh I need it.

Hiring For Soft Skills

SPEAKER_01 16:34

So now you do have employees that work for you, right? Yeah, yeah, okay. So when you're building a team, and this is you know kind of more hypothetical, but if when you're building a team and you're looking to hire employees, what traits matter more to you than what's on someone's resume?

SPEAKER_00 16:53

Um soft skills for sure. Show it up, package drug tests, uh, clean dialemaker. All the simple things you would think would be common, you know, commonplace, but uh it's also common anymore. Um but uh my lattice actually um was part of anchor, he's done a lot of different things. Um and he was telling me something that like took uh uh a lot of high detail to be able to do what he was doing. And uh that right there, I couldn't usually teach. Uh probably if I didn't do this, um I would be a teacher, honestly. Maybe teach cadets or something in school. But um I uh I thought, you know, if if he has that kind of attention to detail, then I can teach him all the needs now. Um and he's he's been a really good employee so far, you know, he's been with us for a few months. Um and uh that's kind of the things I'm looking for, is uh just you know soft skills, attention to detail. Um you know, it's nice if they know a little bit about cats, but sometimes you you have bad habits that come in. Everybody's got their own opinion. And that's fine. Uh that your employee doesn't do how I want to go.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

Okay. So what's something that you do for your employees to keep your workplace positive, motivated, and productive? Um, you know, especially like during like a stressful or tiring time.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

Um I don't know if there's anything out there, I can sort of do um it's kind of like a routine thing. Um they pretty much know that I'm gonna ask them to do anything that I wouldn't do myself. Um so definitely if it's uh you know, we're under the gun and um, you know, maybe not when it's a deadline or something like that. I'm I'm gonna be right right out there with them on the job. Um bit more commercial, sometimes we have jobs that uh have to be a deadline and we'd be right there through two or three o'clock in the morning making sure it was done. And um I'll drive one with them. I could have been like, well, I've got business to run. You go out there to pay me for ordering, that's fine, but uh I think sometimes that kind of brings morale down. Uh so when they see that I'm I'm right there in the thick other rhythm, uh they've appreciated that. And I'm also a lot more mean with uh like I said, like with customers, uh I like the relationship, something kind of like that with employees, and I see another person, you know, I'm just a member of like a big corporation or something. So when things come up, you know, if it's all the time, it's one thing, but if things come up and need to leave early because they uh you know get home to the wife or something, or just you know, whatever. Um I I try to accommodate as much as I can. Um, you know, if we can shift things around, or if I can cover for them for the last hour of the day, or whatever it is. Um I think they they appreciate that as well.

Values, Advice, And What’s Next

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Yeah, no, I agree with that. So, all right, so we're gonna head into what's called the quick fire round. So how this works is uh I'm going to say one word, and I just want you to tell me the first thing that comes to your mind when you hear each word in regards to running your business, and then expand upon upon what you meant by the one word that you use. Perfect. So first word is education.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

Just one word.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Well, no, no, I mean, you know, because you you know, you just give you come back with the first idea and then you expand upon what you mean by the first idea that you gave.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

Um scam. So um I think that's kind of been a common thing right now, is like college is a scammy kind of thing. And I don't think that it is totally um I always daughter she's going to school to be a doctor. So we all say I have it for something, but um definitely what I went to school for, I don't use um uh the last hire I was talking about uh his attention to detail things in high school uh uh college dropout, but uh super, super smart guy. Um uh just didn't see uh a need for it in the market. So I think we've even uh I'll be 42 next month, um or an email rather. And it's uh um the new program has been always be pushed it like this college for everyone, and that's not the answer. So I would have been actually um on a divisory board at uh one of our uh local high schools and trying to on the carpenter side just try to uh grow that a little bit more. Um I think a lot of guidance counselors have just been sending kids that doesn't seem like college material straight towards that, and we actually do need you know knowledgeable people in all trades in construction, uh you know, doesn't matter. Uh and so um unfortunately that has just been you know looked upon as like trades and not a uh not a good paying job. So you just kind of get pushed aside. I mean that then the students aren't uh very encouraged. They're they're they're very much discouraged. Uh they think that they're gonna amount to nothing because they're not college materials, so they're gonna put forth an effort. You know, when we go to, you know, get stuck in manufacturing or something like that, and actually could have done something pretty joy. Um, so I I think that like um as far as you know, kind of that's what stands out to me is as education, is we should, you know, the schools should put more emphasis on trades. And we're doing a little bit better now, but um it's still like a few jobs, you know. Loading is a huge one, um electrical, it's just there's so many things out there, and we're just focusing on just uh just a few of them. Uh I wish they would expand and and uh do a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

Next word is planning.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

Planning. Um I guess calendar. Um that's kind of a tough one for me. Um just because some of the schedules move around so much. I try to keep the calendar and like plan everything out uh the best I can, but there's always job delays, changes, and stuff, so it's uh uh it can be difficult to try to keep the calendar straight and uh keep everybody happy. Um use Google Calendar a lot, but um uh I probably need something that's more AI driven so I can uh figure that out for me. Inspiration inspiration.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

Um inspires you or pick it up for every day.

SPEAKER_00 24:32

Um guess insp inspiration would be uh my grandpa. Um he actually was not, he wasn't a business owner. Um actually had one job his whole life. Um he worked at a cohort plant from the time he was 18 until he retired. Um but uh he was uh definitely dedicated. Um and uh I think he was warned that you're you know go up and be an arm whenever he needed to. Um and uh so I don't think he was kind of like just nine to five punch o'clock and he's done when he gives him well. I think he would uh he definitely was all where he worked, but he also uh since he didn't have a business, he was able to focus more on his uh on his family. So uh really looked up to him and his faith and um uh he yeah, he passed away uh I think about three years ago. But I always looked up to him and um you know and his faith and just the the man that he was. So yeah, he definitely was an inspiration. Commitment commitment. Um I'm not good at this rapid fire. Um I mean one thing that comes to mind will be uh marriage, marriage commitment. Um that is uh that's something that kind of back to the beginning, like you were talking about, uh where I got to start and when I I did feel like I was leaving me to to start this business. Um just kind of you know mixed feelings for my wife because you know, working nights and weekends, it was you know I'm never home, uh so it can be tough in a relationship, but uh you know, I I had told her I'm like, you know, this I've I'm at the point where I've got to just dive in and go for it, and it could work, it could not. And uh I'll be okay with you know being broke and uh in the uh uh rescue mission if we had to or whatever. And she's just like, yeah, I'm I'm with you. That's that's uh that's what you think that is the next step, and let's do it. So she's definitely been uh by my side doing um really work in the business, but as far as support and stuff, um uh that that's been good. So yeah, commitment to her and our relationship. Um uh yeah, I guess that's what I'd say about that.

SPEAKER_01 27:21

Okay. And the last word is execution.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

Execution. Um I'd say uh perfection. Um I try to, I know things are gonna be perfect. Um say I'm not gonna know anything perfect on the side of heaven's Christ, but uh we we try to do it as best we can. Um I definitely try to expect that from my um from my guys. Um, of course, there has to be tolerances for things, but when it comes to execution, whether it's in the shop, installation, I kind of expect it to be as perfect as possible. I've always kind of went along the uh uh the guideline myself um is that if I'm more picky than the customer, then they shouldn't have anything to worry about. There should be nothing on the punch list because I've already caught everything and fixed it myself. Um so I try to get my guys through the same thing, but um uh sometimes it can get struggled. But uh that's kind of what I expect there, is uh is perfection.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

Okay. All right, perfect. Appreciate that for the quick fire round. So um Yeah, so if you're you know, and I want you to be as candid as you can with this next answer, but let's say a small business owner is listening to the podcast episode today and you know they're they're feeling stuck or overwhelmed and having a bad day, maybe maybe even a bad, maybe even a uh a bad start to 2026 in general. Uh, what's a piece of advice you'd want them to hear from you today?

SPEAKER_00 29:00

Um I would say uh let's let's pretty big as hell for me. I know this is more business and um uh but uh prayer uh baba has been uh very helpful because I think sometimes uh you just you know, so what is you know what a religion, you it's just meditation. I just think that at times that you can um you can just kind of hit the brakes and uh you know know that you know you might just panic, I guess, and worry. Um and also just like reach out to somebody else that's uh another business owner. And even though they might, you know, you may not have to talk to somebody that's that's got it figured out, but they don't necessarily have it all figured out, or they've probably been through all the same things. So I've got a few people uh in my life that uh business owners that I'm able to call up if I have to. Um I can't say that number of things are uh about the darkness, that's who I go to first, but if it's just you know the bounce ideas off of and have a little struggle with this or whatever, I do have a few people I can call on and see how things win their business. Um I I think that's uh that's important to have some type of mentor. Um uh usually within an eye group there used there tends to be a business coach or something that could also help along. Um so uh yeah, I think settled to just kind of let you know that's you're not wrong. Um uh you're not the only one with the same with the same issues, you know. I think uh the other cat shop he's cut parts from we've talked through the years, and he's always tried to figure out how to keep business just steady in these very successful business, but he had told me like you have you know very time and slow time. It's like a roller coaster. And so uh I think whenever you're starting out and uh you you hit that that high, you think like, oh, business is gonna be like this all the time. When it takes a little bit, you start panicking. You talk to somebody that's been through it and it kind of helped guide you through and let you know, like, okay, you know, maybe do this, this, and this, and it would be okay. So um I that has probably been uh helpful too, is like having my dad uh to look up to a little bit as far as going through some hard times because like I said, we went through 2008 together, and I was just in clearly, but I got to see everything fall apart around us. Um I think one thing that helped him since he stayed small and grow is he tried to have everything pay for. Um so I think the smaller shop, I think the bigger shops were they took a hit for they survived okay, but I think the smaller shops that had a little bit more overhead, those are the ones that tend to go under. Um we started seeing the cabin shops just close all over the place. Um so it kind of got scary, but um you know I've seen going through that and what will work for him will work for other people. So uh try to prepare for the slow time as well.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

Okay, okay. So what's next for progressive cabinets? What should people be excited about coming up in the near future?

SPEAKER_00 32:12

Um we uh so we recently just replaced our CNC. Um didn't I wanted to wait a little bit longer, but uh it has been uh a great improvement. So we're trying to get our um our capacity increased. Got a few more things we're gonna change out in the next few months. Um so we're trying to do do more work. Um I'm working with um a kitchen back dealer in uh in North Carolina that's uh to do some some stuff for him as far as kitchen, you know, regular kitchen cabins, but uh he's also got uh closets that he does. So we're probably gonna offer clouds more like through him or just if there's individual people that um maybe installers that just you know want to um maybe a small uh called company or something, we'll just cut parts for them. So trying to do a little bit more uh business to business than we have in the past because no one have the capacity to um and then trying to expand on a little bit more than we do. I like I said I still love doing residential, uh get to get me to know the clients. Um but sometimes you know commercials are easy, closets are pretty easy, um, and that's kind of stuff that just flows to the shop really quick. So, you know, you can make some money at it, but I just I still like the the personal touch of the residential side.

SPEAKER_01 33:38

Okay, perfect, perfect. And finally, what's the best way for someone to connect with you or Loma about what you do?

SPEAKER_00 33:44

Um go to our uh website, uh progressivecabinetclc.com. Um we'll do probably sometime this year, we're gonna start uh social media things and so um like through the website can be directed through to social media on that. I said no longer go that route right now because if I do it, I want it to be done right, and I don't really have the time to do it. I need to find the right person that's gonna manage it and do it well. Um so I just kind of hail off on that. Uh just just for that fact. But yeah, put us at Cabinet CLC.com.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

All right, perfect, perfect. Yeah, Brandon, yeah, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. We really appreciate everything you're doing for the community, Western North Carolina in general, and uh, yeah, for North Carolina and the Southeast. Yeah, I appreciate you. All right, thank you.