Epic Entrepreneurs

How Two Roofers Built Trust Without High Pressure Sales with Ben and Keary

• Bill Gilliland

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The fastest way to ruin a service business is to chase growth while cutting corners, and Ben Lyle and Carrie Sampson refuse to play that game. As the owners of Roof Guys of East Tennessee, they share what it actually feels like to run a roofing company day to day: the long hours, the “always on” phone, the stress of slow seasons, and the discipline it takes to keep showing up when jobs fall through and the calendar suddenly looks empty.

We talk through the real mechanics behind their reputation: one of the owners physically touches every job site, they obsess over communication with homeowners, and they treat safety as non-negotiable. They also explain why doing things “the right way” can cost more upfront but saves money long term through less rework, fewer surprises, and stronger trust. If you care about customer experience, contractor accountability, or building a durable local brand, you will recognize a lot of hard-earned wisdom here.

Their most controversial choice might be their sales process. They do not hard close, and they often do not deliver a formal quote on the spot. Instead, they educate homeowners on roof replacement versus roof rejuvenation options and send a detailed proposal later, even if it means waiting weeks or months for the decision. That patience, they argue, is exactly what wins the right customers and supports sustainable growth as they plan expansion toward Western North Carolina.

If you enjoy candid conversations about entrepreneurship, small business systems, and scaling a service business without losing integrity, subscribe, share this with a business owner who needs it, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway.

Contact Info:
bear.lyle@gmail.com
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61574881502994
https://www.roofguys-tn.com/

Thanks for Listening. You may contact me or our team at https://billgilliland.biz/

All the best!
Bill

Please hit the subscribe button, leave us a 5 star review,  and share this podcast. You can reach me at williamgilliland@actioncoach.com or at https://billgilliland.biz/


Welcome And Meet Roof Guys

SPEAKER_03

All right, hello everyone. Welcome to this week's episode of Epic Entrepreneurs. I'm Cliff McCray with Acting Coach Business Growth Partners, where we work with local business owners to turn big ideas into real scalable growth. Today I'm excited to be joined by Ben Lyle and Carrie Sampson with Roof Guys of East Tennessee. Ben and Carrie, how are you guys doing today?

SPEAKER_00

Great, good and good, man.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, we're excited to have you both. And uh yeah, let's go ahead and jump right into things. Um, for those of you who may not know it yet, who are you guys? You know, who is Ben Lyle and who is Carrie Sampson? And what is Roof Guys of East Tennessee and what do you guys provide for your clients?

SPEAKER_01

Oh gosh, should I answer for you and you answer for me? Well, we've been in construction some form or another with both of our lives. I've been in contractor for nearly 20 years. My wife and I moved here to East Tennessee about seven years ago, and I got into roofing and Ben and I met at a networking meeting a couple of years ago, well, about three years ago now, and that's how we met. What about you, Ben?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean, I've done construction my whole life on the side most of the time, but come from the corporate world for 22 years and printing and packaging, and then finally decided that side businesses weren't enough and started a home improvement business. And that's where, like Carrie just talked about, we were part of a a networking group here in town and met there, and then I really didn't want anything to do with roofing. So when a customer asked me about a roof, I sent them to him because he was the one who put roofs on. And I guess about a year later, he was ready to move on from the position that he had. And I was looking to expand my business, so we discussed several different options as far as working together, and we wound up starting a roofing company. He's the roof guru, and I'm the guy that looks at the roof from the ground.

SPEAKER_01

Mostly like, and tell him not to fall. So he does tell me not to fall, and it he I usually don't. Usually, usually, not every time, though, right? Not every time.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Nothing's perfect but God's grace, sir.

SPEAKER_03

I love it. I love it. So, yeah, better carry, you know, real talk. Let's go ahead and jump right into it. The real nitty-gritty that people want to hear. You know, what what's something about running a business that people think is amazing, but is actually complete BS?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, I want to I want to answer this one. We both have a good one. My good one is a few years a few years ago, my wife said, it must be nice to work for yourself and not have a boss. And I was like, Are you kidding? You've got one boss. At any given time, I've got a dozen or more bosses. And you know, people call me at you know 5 30 in the morning or 10 30 at night. So that's I think that's a misconception,

The Big Lie About Ownership

SPEAKER_01

right? It's it's a labor of love as well, and you have to make yourself available. And so, yeah, you you never work more than you do when you work for yourself.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean, that one that kind of steps into what I was gonna say is you know, people think when you start your business that you make your own hours and it's flexible and all of that kind of stuff. And well, it's not. Um yeah, you don't get to you don't get to close your computer at five o'clock and say, okay, I'm done till tomorrow. You are working. If you're awake, you're probably working. And that's that's the biggest misconception, I think, is is being a business owner. Kiri hit the nail on the head with it's a labor of love. So I don't mind working all the time, but we are constantly working all the time. So that's that's a big one there that I think people people what's it romanticize the the idea of owning your own business, but it's really just a lot of work.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, okay. So what would you both say was the exact moment where you realized, you know, this could either really work or it could completely blow up in your face?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, I think there's been several. I was thinking we do that every day. Yeah. So we yeah, we'll we'll reach a point. It it's just roofing is seasonal, but it's also cyclical. And you know, I I lived a charmed life for nearly 20 years, working. Well, you always work directly for homeowners, but I worked foreign by myself, meaning that I

Surviving Seasonal Cash Flow Swings

SPEAKER_01

built, you know, custom fences and decks, perbolas, gazebos. I did outdoor carpentry, and it was just me. I had trouble finding good help, and and so I lived in a bubble where I worked, you know, in somebody's backyard, you know, just directly with the homeowner. And what was the what was the question? Yeah, that'll happen a couple of times still here, Cliff.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, seriously. Yeah, so the question was, you know, the exact moment where you guys realized this this this thing could work, basically.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, gotcha. And so I didn't realize that I didn't realize how cyclical or how seasonal roofing was because I just it none of that affected me. I lived in South Texas and you can work all year round. And so there are times when it's slow here and you just feel like you're at the end of your rope. You're like, oh my gosh, this has just fell through. And then, you know, you'll have more jobs over the next month than you can possibly handle. When I finally let go that there's a you know, uh an ebb and flow to this, it made it a lot easier. And and now I like that part of it because you'll just work 85 hours a week for two or three weeks in a row, and then you'll have a week where there's not much to do. And for me, letting go of being worried about it during that off week is that that really changes things for me. To not be worried about it because you know the next week will be different.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think the high points, low points, that kind of thing. So that's why I said, you know, we we kind of go through that every day. It's like, oh man, I didn't get the last three jobs that I I quoted. What are we gonna do next week or two weeks from now when the crews run out of work? And then the next day you may have three jobs that come through. So I I mean, it's not to Jesus juke anybody or anything, but it's I mean, it's really in God's hands, and He's gonna continue to take care of us, and we trust in that. But yeah, there's there's sometimes that as a business owner, you can't you can't force it. So you have to you have to kind of let it let it go. You have to go through the hard times, and then when things are bountiful, you you do the best you can and try to put you know, it's all about money. So you try to put some of that money away. So when it when it does get bad, you can even that part of the dip out.

SPEAKER_01

That was great. What's a what's a uh Jesus juke?

SPEAKER_00

A Jesus juke? Yeah. Yeah, what does that mean? A Jesus juke is where somebody's like, Well, I'm going through a really hard time, and this and this and this and this is happening, and and they're like, Well, have you talked to God about it?

SPEAKER_01

Okay. So yeah, Jesus juke. I used to make fun of people that you tell them something you know bad is going on in your life or you're dealing with a difficulty, and they go, Oh, well, you know what? If a door door closes, a window opens, then I would secretly roll my eyes at that. But it's uh it's true, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, okay. Yeah, and I could definitely relate to that, uh, you know, what you're talking about being from South Texas. I'm actually from Tampa, Florida. And um, yeah, and I've I've been here, you know, in this area now, what, five years now. And that was the weirdest thing to get used to, is around the holidays, everything kind of shuts down, especially for roofers, guys like yourself, right? You can't put on a roof when it's below freezing. So, you know, you guys can't, you guys really aren't gonna have a whole lot of work during that time, right? But you know, Tampa, you can work all year. I mean, they're guys doing they're they're getting on roofs in January. Sure. That was a big deal.

SPEAKER_00

This past winter was one of those, you know, Tennessee weather is everybody says this, but Tennessee's true. If you don't like the weather, just stick around a couple hours because it's gonna paint. But we literally, you know, we put three roofs on the week of Christmas last year, yeah, because it was 70 degrees. And you know, after the week of Christmas, it died, and it died for a good month and a half. And that was one of those low points for us. We're like, okay, we were we were doing so good. Now, now what happens? And really all it was was two things. Nobody wants to do anything around the holidays unless they have to. And then the other thing is the beginning of the year, most people aren't going to make a big purchase until they get their tax return back. So as soon as that started hitting, I'd say, you know, late February, early March, it's warmed up, it's spring, and you know, it's home improvement season. So things picked up and now we're good. But now we're trying to prepare for you know, how long does winter does winter set in at Thanksgiving this year? Or do we get 70 degree days all the way through December? We don't know.

SPEAKER_01

So we've got to prepare for and you know, as far as this the cyclical schedule, something I finally realized that maybe Ben knows too, is that I never wanted to take some time off around the holidays because you know, you're always hoping that you can be there and available for your customers. But now six years of the same thing. There's nothing that happens on or right before Easter, the same for Memorial Day, Labor Day, 4th of July. And so, you know, I could take a hint for myself and recognize that, and we can actually enjoy some holidays because there is no work going on there for homeowners. They they want their personal life during that time. So maybe we can recognize this going into this summer and enjoy it a little bit more.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I agree with that. So here's a here's a good one here. Have you both ever thought about quitting and why quitting the business totally?

SPEAKER_01

No.

SPEAKER_00

I don't think that hasn't even crossed my mind.

SPEAKER_01

Nope.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. I think we're we're invested to the point where it's not an option, so there's no reason to worry about that.

SPEAKER_01

I've always I've kind of always known this. Intelligence will get you a long way, talent will get you a long way, but I think for 30 plus years, I've known in my heart of hearts that perseverance

Perseverance Over Talent And Smarts

SPEAKER_01

is really what wins out in the long run. And that's hands down. Yeah, it trumps the other two every time.

SPEAKER_03

Nice, nice. Okay. All right. So, you know, and this next one's a good one here. What's a mistake you made early on that either cost you either money or time or reputation?

SPEAKER_01

I well, the the short of it is that if you want to do things right, everything costs you more money. And we we kind of realize that. And so you you you have two choices. There's uh there's a model that says you charge this much for this service, and here's how the service goes. And then what you realize is that if you really want to be customer focused, and I I hate to beat a dead horse here and talk about how good we are,

Quality Control By Touching Every Job

SPEAKER_01

but you know, last year, well, pretty much the whole couple of years, there is not one job site that one of us didn't touch physically. Like, and that's for the rejuvenation, there's two trips normally uh cleaning, and then you come back to spray the product and work on the roof a little bit. And so, you know, out of hundreds of jobs, one of the owners, Ben or I, touched every single job. And we've got a really big market. We go from Middle Tennessee to about Crossville to the Tri-Cities, a little bit in Asheville, other parts of North Carolina that are close. And so that's a task. You're in the truck all the time. And that's how we avoid pitfalls, is because we have a hand in the daily operations. We don't just sell a job and then send a crew and just hope that we don't get a call for a few years. The idea is to do everything right the first time and to never get that call. And I tell people, I said, look, y'all are really nice and we get along really well, but I hope that you never have to call me again regarding your roof. I hope you call to tell me that you know you've given our contact to one of your friends or your family members. And and so, in order to achieve that, you can say that, but to actually mean it, you really have to have a hand in the jobs. Now, will we hire someone eventually that kind of takes that role and touches every job and can be our liaison? Yeah, but for now, I'm a recovering control freak. I'm just not very recovered. I'm still in my 12-step program. He's on step one. I've been on step one for 30 years.

SPEAKER_00

But even with that, I mean, yeah, we that helps us avoid major pitfalls and mistakes and things like that. It doesn't mean that we don't have issues, right? Um, the difference is that when you have an issue, you're there and you correct it and make sure that it's done right before the entire roof gets covered up. So I think that's that's one of the important things is making sure that you as an owner or founder or whatever the business is, you have to have that hand in it for quite a while before you're able to, you know, train and and get somebody or find somebody that has the same business acumen and and culture as you do to run your business. I don't know what that looks like for us in the future. I hope we find somebody like that, but at the moment it's it's just gonna be Carrie and I. And we're gonna make sure that you know Carrie's biggest worry, I think, is that we're not gonna do what we told the customer that we were gonna do. And that's how we stay on top of it is just make sure that that we're there and present. And if something doesn't go right, you you fix it quickly.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah, okay. I will I lived in a bubble when I was a contractor before we moved here. Like I said earlier, working directly for the homeowner. I didn't have to be responsible for other people. I didn't realize that you know the world, the culture had changed a little bit and things just kept becoming more lackadaisical. The the true passion for what you do, people go to work now for the most part to make money. Again, there's nothing wrong with money, but you go to work to do the right thing and the money will come. Less and less people have that mentality. And so, you know, I know I have a savior complex. I realize that. Ben tells me all the time. But trust me, the second we have someone that can operate in my position out in the field that is willing to put in the hours and and be there and watch everything closely, we'll snatch them up and we'll use them and it'll make my life easier. But but we're we're just we're just not there yet. We're we're still, I don't know what the infancy stage is for a new company, but I feel like it's 10 years, but I'll be in my 60s, you know, by the time that comes around. But we're gonna do it this way as long as we can, and then you know, hire the right people and then watch them closely and make sure it continues.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, okay. I love that. I love it. So, you know, and and this is a good one here. What would you guys say is something about you both personally that had to change in order for your business to grow?

SPEAKER_00

I to be honest, I don't think I changed a whole lot in my personal life. I did leave, you know, after about a year. I mean, I did leave my corporate job and started working in the business full time. You know, that was a change in my personal life, but uh we didn't have to do that. Kerry was successful being the only employee of the business, and we

Partnership Roles That Unlock Growth

SPEAKER_00

were making money, but you know, it was a time where we're either gonna grow and we're gonna make this work, or you know, we're gonna continue with the status quo. And neither one of us wanna be neither one of us want to be at the status quo. So it was time to make that move, and you know, I think we're better for it as a company. And I know my headspace as well as stress level is much better, even though it's a different kind of stress being away from the corporate world, and just being able to make your own decisions without a bunch of red tape is a lot of relief in itself.

SPEAKER_01

It is, but Ben Ben's being well a little polite here. We were only going to grow so much with me overseeing everything because I'm still can't get over the the idea that I I I've always I've always operated that I can make the amount of money that I can make with these two hands. And because I'm so job focused, if Ben didn't come on board to help grow the business, I wasn't gonna get off the job site to go pursue more business because I was always gonna be concerned that if I took on more, then well, I'm already working 5 a.m. to 9 p.m. There's no more hours in the day, there's no more work to be gotten. And so Ben and I are very different, and it couldn't work out better. He is really good at all the things that I'm not good at, and I'd like to say vice versa.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean, I Kiri's the operations guy, man, and he wants to be on top of it. He wants to make sure that you know the guys are doing exactly what we said we were gonna do, and really ultimately after 22 years of managing people in the corporate world, I don't really want to do that anymore. But he's the one with the most roofing knowledge and uh experience, and there's nobody better to be out there putting roofs on for us.

SPEAKER_01

I I hate to say it, there's a lot of people out there with a lot more roofing knowledge, it just doesn't get done right.

SPEAKER_03

So, yeah, if someone shadowed you both for a day, for a full day, let's say, hypothetically, what would surprise them the most about how you guys operate?

SPEAKER_00

If somebody did what for a day? Sorry. They shadowed you. Shadowed us for a day. For a full day.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I would say, uh, and it's really weird how this has happened because I didn't want to be a sales guy, but just the roles that we've taken on is Kiri wants to be the one managing the jobs and making sure that, like I said earlier, he's he's

No Pressure Sales And Delayed Wins

SPEAKER_00

making sure that what we told the customer is actually happening. I've kind of reverted back to being the sales guy. So I I do a lot of sales appointments, but both of us have the same sales mentality. So I think from a from a running appointment standpoint, what people would probably think is the strangest thing about how we do business is that when we go and talk to a customer, we don't give them a quote while we're there. Ever. Ever. Yeah, we don't we will tell them, like if we can figure out what the price is, if we've got all the information, we'll go ahead and give them a price. But we won't give them the quote. We won't try to sell them, you know. Can I get you on the schedule now? That kind of thing. Like, we don't do that. We just we give them the quote, we tell them, or we give them the numbers and educate them on what the options are to whatever it is, right? If it's a restoration or replacement or whatever, here's the options and here's what it's gonna cost, or here's a ballpark of what it's gonna cost. And I'm gonna send you a detailed formal quote tonight when I get back to the office. I'm gonna send you everything that you need to know about everything that we talked about. And we leave it that we leave it to them, right? That's that's not how a salesman's supposed to operate, that doesn't close the deal. So that's there's a couple different things there is Kiri and I, neither one want to be sold. And me personally, when I start being sold, my guard goes up and I'm very turned off by that with a salesman. And the other side of that is that neither one of us are comfortable doing that. So that's the approach that we take is hey, I'm not a salesman, I'm the owner. I'm here to educate you on the options that you asked about. Here's what the price is. I'll send you a formal quote later on. Let me know if there's anything that we can help you with or if you want to discuss further. And that's a scary aspect, especially when we started the business, because there's a delay. Yeah, a lot of people appreciate that approach, but there's probably a I'll say three-week to month and a half delay sometimes on getting that job. But I think most of the time when we do get the job, the customer will say something like, I really appreciate all of the information, the amount of effort that you put in on expecting inspecting my roof, on putting the quote together and giving me my options. I really appreciate that. And you didn't try to hard sell me. So I think that's something that people would really find different. That's kind of a point of contention that we had in the past with how we did business and whether or not we were gonna push a certain product and things like that. It's just not what we're comfortable with and and not what we would want to do. We don't want somebody else doing that to us. So we look at that as that's our way of respecting the customer, is to make sure that you know we're treating them the way we would want to be treated.

SPEAKER_01

You you hear all these, you know, in sales, you hear the same phrases over and over. I've heard them my whole life. You know, lead the customer to a decision. Yeah, that's a that's a really bad word. You want to make sure that you equip them with all the information that they need to make the right decision for themselves. Your job is not to leave them. And I he's right. There's there's a lag. When we started this, you know, there are a couple of months. We're like, oh my goodness. But they started calling. And this week, I want to add this. This week, we're doing two jobs that are one of them we met with these people about it had to be February of last year because we met them at a home show and went out and looked at the roof and gave them a quote. And we're doing that one this week. You know, they called us a year plus later. The other job that we're doing up in Kingsport this week, same thing. Met him last summer, and he's pulling the trigger this spring. And that makes you feel really good. You don't realize what an impact you have on people until you get a call nine months to 18 months later. They've been they listened to what you said and they held on to that and they waited until the time was right for them. That gives me warm, fuzzy feelings. It does.

SPEAKER_03

So basically, you know, and to sum it up, I mean, you know, I get I guess what would surprise them the most? I guess kind of in a short in a short sentence. So would that be the most shocking thing they would see as as far as you know spending the day with you?

SPEAKER_00

I think it is because when we talk to other business owners, when we talk to other salespeople and things like that, they always try to like correct us. Like, oh no, no, you can't do it that way. You got to close the deal while you're in the house. If you don't close the deal while you're in the house, you're not gonna get that sale. And and that's not true. It's not true. So yeah, I think that's that's probably the the most shocking thing that somebody would see about our model. There are other things, obviously, we do we do things differently. We've already kind of talked about that with you know one of the owners touching every job and that kind of thing. But I think that that sales approach, and don't get me wrong, I I had to have the revelation of no pressure. Like we didn't want to have gimmicks, we didn't want to, we didn't want to have sales pitches and all of this. Like we didn't want anything flashy in our sales approach. And so it was all like, okay, no pressure, we're just gonna educate the customer. And then I had the revelation that that in itself is a sales approach, kind of a gimmick in itself, you could call it a gimmick in itself, but honestly, it it's about respecting the customer, their time, and helping them make the best decision that gives them the best value for their home.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, okay. So let's go ahead and talk numbers without getting too specific. You know, what was the turning point where things started to scale and become profitable? How long did that take for you guys?

SPEAKER_01

Are we profitable? Profitable. Yeah, we've made we made payroll last week. Um, we each of us take a very modest salary, and you know, we both made a lot more money before we started this, but we put everything back into the company. Our guys have everything they need to do the job the right way every time. No excuses.

Profitability By Reinvesting In The Crew

SPEAKER_01

They have all the tools. Matter of fact, we've got that van loaded down with so much safety equipment that they don't normally use, but if they ever need it, it's there. You know, it it's we've done the foundation of this company has been done properly. We're going into our third year of business, and this year we'll profit pretty well, I believe. And so not to cut you off, but I'm gonna cut you off.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, sure. You have to with me. Uh Cliff, what's really odd for us is year one, we made a profit. Wasn't a big profit, but we were to the good. And we've got another partner, silent partner, if you will, whatever. He puts together, you know, all of our financial records and stuff like that. He's the one that helped us invest and get started. And he did the numbers and sent them to us the first year, and he's like, guys, nobody hardly ever makes a profit the first year. And that was surprising to us because we felt like we were constantly struggling. And you know, when we got down to the end of it, we're like, okay, this is this is working, so we're gonna continue to expand that and do what we're doing. And I guess I say all of that because our sales approach is so strange. We do things, we could make a lot more money if we weren't so specific about how careful we are, how we approach the sales scenario, that kind of thing. We could probably make more money. So, in the end, when we got to the end of the first year and he said, Hey, we made a profit this year, that was kind of a confirmation that we were doing the right thing. And that that was that was a good feeling as well. I won't say it as a warm and fuzzy, but it it felt good that hey, this business model does work. There's a way to make an honest living and treat customers right and you know take care of our families in the process.

SPEAKER_01

And and the bonus to the way that we're doing things is, you know, selfishly looking, you know, into the future, we don't go back and do any rework. So we still made a profit while doing everything right up front, and then years from now, we're not gonna spend more money going back to these jobs and correcting things, problems that rear the ugly head later on. I'm not worried about that at all. And so each year we'll get more and more profitable.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, okay. I love that, I love that. So let's get let's get into you guys have a team, right, of employees, correct? Yeah, yeah, okay. So what would you say is the fastest way someone could lose their job working for you?

SPEAKER_01

Gosh, there's there's so many, but smart off to a customer. That's something to do with the customer. It has to be it. Be disrespectful to a customer, not take the customer's concerns really to heart. But we're we're, you know,

Culture Rules Customer Respect And Safety

SPEAKER_01

really good. I I know how a lot of other companies operate. I'm sure Ben does too, but I know a lot of roofing contractors. We know a lot of contractors in general. And, you know, it's true that there's not enough trades in this country for the customer base. And so what's happened over the years is that the communication is really lax. You know, you don't, you know, we'll we'll be out as soon as we can. There's none of that with our customers. Our customers know exactly when we're coming. The crew, if they're 15 minutes behind schedule, will give them a call. If they don't pick up, they'll send them a text and say, we're in route, we're stuck in traffic going through Knoxville, but we should see you about 9.15. You know, that that's really, really important.

SPEAKER_00

So I would say something with the customer. One of our employees says something sideways to a customer or disrespects the customer, that's probably the quickest way to lose your job. And I I hate to say this, you know, safety is supposed to be first. But yeah, if second would be definitely safety. If you're not following the safety procedures that we put in place, or you're not using the equipment that we provided, then that's a problem. And our presence on the job site helps with that. But that's something that we never want to put somebody in a situation where they're uncomfortable. So that's why, like Kiri was talking about, we've got the the van loaded down with different kinds of equipment, different things to tie off with if it's a steep roof, things like that. And that would be a very, very close second. It would any any kind of I don't know how to put it, but any any safety, not violation, but just doing something unsafe that could put themselves in a bad situation, that that's gonna be the end of our relationship with an employee.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I'd say at this point we've we've I think we're fortunate. I think we realize now we've hired good people because we really haven't had to deal with any of these issues. We have had to show up and say, hey, that's a little bit steep. I'd prefer y'all anchor in. And they're like, oh, we're okay. Well, sure, you're okay because you you think you're immortal because you're 28 years old, but you're not. But as far as customers and the way all of our staff treats the customers, I think we've gotten really lucky. Everybody operates the way we would like them to operate.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, we see it in some of our employees that we've had, like they're kind of rough around the edges, construction guys, right? And then when the customer walks out and they start talking to them, it's like a different person. And we're like, man, I didn't I didn't know that he was capable of it. It surprises a couple of times, you know, that professional repertoire, I guess, of how they treat and talk to the customer, we really appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01

It what really everybody needs accountability, and going back to us, you know, touching every job site, when when our employees see one of the owners show up at a job site and chat it up with the customer, not just chat it up, but I've had enough conversation, I've had enough communication with them the first couple of times that we've met that I can show up on a job site and we can chat about real stuff, about something that we talked about before. They understand that the owners truly are involved in understanding what our customer wants and being willing, they're not just a number. And I know that sounds cliche-ish, but when the employee sees that from the owner, they're gonna take that mindset and roll with it. That's what we've seen. And I'd say we're fortunate, but I guess we had something to do with the decision in bringing them on. So, you know, I I wasn't gonna take any credit for it.

SPEAKER_00

I'm just really impressed with our report.

SPEAKER_01

Oh man, I feel bad.

SPEAKER_03

All right, well, I appreciate that. So, yeah, let's go ahead and head into the quick fire round. So, how this works is that you know, and how I'm gonna do this with the both of you, is I'm going to you know say one word, and then I want you guys to tell me the first thing that comes to your mind when you hear each word in regards to running your business.

SPEAKER_00

And then you realize how dangerous this is?

SPEAKER_03

It's gonna be fun. No, let's do it. Let's do it. Let's get running out.

SPEAKER_00

Are we gonna go back and forth? We're gonna yell it out at the same time.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess you know, you take turns, I guess. That'll be yeah, that'll be the easiest way for the audience to keep going the same.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, I'm gonna go first.

SPEAKER_03

All right, perfect.

Quick Fire Values Success Burnout Freedom

SPEAKER_03

All right, first word of success. Money. Okay. Oh, okay. So you want me to do the whole thing? Okay, I've gotcha, I gotcha. I thought we were gonna take turns like you say one and then okay, gotcha.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, what do you want me to sorry? Let's start over.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I was gonna say answer from each of us. Oh, answer from each of us. Yeah, so basically give me the first thing that comes to your mind when you hear each word, and then expand upon why you chose that word.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, we have to give a commentary. This is gonna take forever. This is not gonna be quick. Quick's not what we do. Let's try it. No, that's fine. That's fine.

SPEAKER_03

That's fine. All right, first word is success.

SPEAKER_00

Money. You know, I think that's why we're in business. Long term, I want this to be a business that my kids inherit and run and do the right way. So we have to make money to be successful. And I don't care your time.

SPEAKER_01

Family. But when I hear success, I I think family, but same thing. You know, yeah, I'd like to see our kids take over this business. That's what success means to me.

SPEAKER_03

Failure.

SPEAKER_01

What do you say? Failure. Oh I mean, the only word that comes to mind is disaster. And I think that speaks for itself. Yeah, I'm sorry. Everybody there's failure is not gonna happen. If you own if you if you own a roofing company, you'll never go out of business unless you do something egregiously wrong. Everyone has a roof. You shouldn't fail. All you have to do is do what you say you're going to do. And with a roofing company, you will be in business forever. You should never close your doors.

SPEAKER_00

I guess failure. Uh the only thing I can think of is lawsuit.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00

I hate those. And that's I I guess that's because I'm more on the business side, is that's a concern of mine, and that's goes back to the safety thing. Goes back to you know, doing what we say we're gonna do. I don't ever want to be in that situation, so I I try to guard the business the best that I can to make sure that that doesn't happen.

SPEAKER_01

That's a good answer. I don't even think that way. That's why we make such now.

SPEAKER_03

You guys, you no, seriously, though, you guys play off of each other great. Like you got to think start your own podcast. Jeez, like, seriously. You have to do great playing off each other.

SPEAKER_00

That's the problem, is we both think we're really funny, but nobody else no one else thinks we're funny. Well, the only other people we've asked is our wives, and they don't think we're funny at all.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, my my wife literally reminds me sometimes before I leave to go to work if she because she's an early riser too. She'll tell me, and remember, when you get out there in the world, you are not funny. She'll struggle me with that, and I tell her, I don't do it for other people. This is just to entertain myself. I'm not, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Oh man. Next word is uh burnout.

SPEAKER_00

What burnout uh vacation, vacation, yeah. So I I forced Kiri to take Easter weekend off last week, and I wasn't happy about it. He's like, well, can't I just I'll go over on Saturday and check on? And I was like, Kiri, it's Easter weekend.

SPEAKER_01

Well, we had a crew that was working Saturday, and I I like to lead by example, but you know, these guys are 25 years younger than me. I I I don't have to, yeah, yeah. Vacation, that's a good one. I I can't expound on that. I need to learn to take it. Okay, okay. Scaling. Scaling? Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, that's been first thing that comes to mind when you say scaling markets, I guess. Markets is the big thing, right? How do you scale a small business where the owner touches every job and and take that into other areas? And I guess my mind goes there because that's what we're trying to do. You know, we are moving to the Asheville area, but it's gonna be it's gonna be a slow roll because we have to find the right person. And that doesn't mean hiring somebody and hitting the ground running. That means hiring somebody and acclimating them to how we do business. So it's not gonna be easy, but that's you know, that's the next step is for us to have a new person that can go into another market and build a rapport with customers and trust with customers in that area. Scaling's gonna be hard.

SPEAKER_01

Scaling's gonna be hard. I I don't I don't want to think about it for all the reasons that he said. I know we're going to eventually, but I'm a I'm a worker bee. Ben is business minded, and I is that your way of calling me lazy? No, no, I'm you said you're a worker bee.

SPEAKER_00

I am I'm singing just a business guy.

SPEAKER_01

No, I am singular. Ben is integral. I've already I've already explained how important you are. Stop it. Yeah, I I'm singularly focused. I I'm worrying about what goes on at the job side, and uh yeah, everything we've already discussed. That's that's not something I can wrap my head around, honestly. I just want to go make sure we're doing what we're supposed to do.

SPEAKER_03

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Competition. Irrelevant. I do not care what other people do, how they do it, how much money they make. I do not care.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, my first when you say competition, my first thing that comes to mind is price, because that's usually what the customers will throw at you, is like, well, I already had a quote here, and and I'll just tell them, you know, we're we're pretty aware that we're not going to be the cheapest. And then I point them back to the reasons and all of the things that we've talked about, you know, how we put a roof on, how we do the work, how it's managed, all of that is the reason that we're not the cheapest. And you know, we're okay with that. We won't get all the jobs because of it, but those aren't the jobs that we want. It's not worth you know doing subpar work just to be cheaper, just to get the work. So we have a level of quality that we're gonna we're gonna maintain as a minimum. So just just trying to compete on price is not an option.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I I say it all the time and I mean it every time I say it. I would rather do six million dollars a year in sales and do everything the right way than do sixteen million dollars a year in sales and worry that we have not. Love it.

SPEAKER_00

And the last word is freedom, retirement, which I don't think I'll ever do. I just want to do what I enjoy doing, and what's really weird about that is I enjoy working. Not necessarily working in this business or working, you know, for somebody else. Like I just enjoy working. I like working with my hands, I like going into my wood shop and building stuff. Like I enjoy working, but yeah, when you say freedom, I I think retirement, but that just means that I'm gonna work on something different.

SPEAKER_01

You know, I'm surprised that I'm saying this, but you said freedom, I think a winner. We I there's not a whole lot of business during the winter. You have to be available as a business. But freedom to me means that we're doing well enough, which by the way, translates into we've hired the right people and put them in the right places where I don't have to feel this compulsion to be everywhere all at once because I already can. It's physical impossibility. So freedom to me means that maybe my wife and I can enjoy the winters. She is recently kind of semi-retired and is going to do her own little, not little business, sorry, Debbie, you know, do her own business. But again, hers is seasonal too. And freedom to me means maybe maybe we got 12 grandkids and they're scattered around the country, and maybe we spend the winter and go see them. That would be nice. That's my immediate freedom.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, okay. I love that. All right, so I appreciate you guys getting through that quick fire round. So, where do you guys think your industry is going and what are most people getting wrong about it right now? Do you think?

SPEAKER_01

Same thing that I was worried about when we took on the rejuvenation part of our company. There are so many products out there that don't do what they claim to do, but but also, you know, technology expounds so quickly. I as long as good product, we've got a great product and we know it. In the beginning, when we started this, I was a little bit worried about the products that didn't perform the way they claim to, souring

Where Roofing Products Are Headed

SPEAKER_01

the market. I'm not I'm not worried about that. We're not a rejuvenation company. We're a roofing company that offers rejuvenation as a great option if your roof is a candidate. And since you operate that way, I'm not concerned about the rejuvenation fad. I think I think better, better products will come out. I think it'll be a viable industry that takes hold. And and I didn't feel that way three years ago, but I feel that way now. That's good. Okay, all right. So good on that. Did you hear what I did there? I stopped talking when I was done with my thought. That was awesome. It left me speechless. I don't need to work on that more.

SPEAKER_00

Anything else to add, or you good on that? I guess you know, I want to dog out manufacturers, but it's not it's not just the shingle manufacturers, it's everything in the world, man. You know, things aren't made the way they were 20, 30, 40 years ago. So, and again, I come from the corporate world and manufacturing, and everybody's trying to do more with less. So less asphalt in the shingles, less whatever, less thickness. What I mean, I I don't know that much about the manufacturing process of shingles, so I'm not not trying to dog that out, dog out any manufacturers. But I mean, the way of the world is things are just not made the way they are anymore. And I don't know what that looks like in another 50 years.

SPEAKER_01

We're we're a throwaway society, and so products don't they should be, but the companies, the the look at it as they don't have to be made as well. I'll tell you one, the average person in the United States stays in their home seven years. Okay. Are are they really concerned about putting a roof that lasts 10 or 15 years longer than the competition? Probably not, because they're gonna leapfrog and jump into a bigger house and then a bigger house. And there's nothing wrong with that. But the problem with that whole scenario is that whoever takes that house is going to change the roof. And it's it's not good for anybody but the shingle manufacturers. I hope they don't listen to this podcast. I don't care if they listen to it or not. They should be making their stuff better. All we can do is offer what is currently the best performing product and also not get wrapped up in what the because we said I don't know if we're allowed to say it, so I won't, but we we only offer and install two companies' shingles. We won't touch anything else. And it's not because a couple of the other companies don't have some good products, but there's something that we don't like about the company. First of all, your entire line should be good if they're built right. You shouldn't have to say, well, there's a certain product from this manufacturer that's good. That makes me not want to have anything to do with the manufacturer. We don't work for those companies. And we constantly are making sure that we're checking the third-party testing to make sure that the companies that we've decided to offer are still the tip of the spear because that may not always be true. And we don't want to get wrapped up in, you know, we've been saying the same thing for years, but then behind the scenes, the company is putting, you know, whatever, less product, thinner asphalt. Their granules are made faster and don't adhere as well. The list goes on and on. We want to make sure that we understand that there's a good reason that we offer what we offer. Well, we don't work for those companies just because we offer them, we work for our customer.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, okay. So, and I want you to and want you both to be as candid as you can with this next answer to this next question. I know you guys will, so I don't even know why I said that, but uh you guys look forward so far, so things have changed. But let's just say uh, you know, small business owners listening to the episode, the podcast episode today with you both, and let's just say they're you know they're they're having just a rough go at things this year, you know. Let's say they're having a bad day or maybe even a bad month, or let's say they're having just a bad you know start to to uh 2026. I mean, we're already in the second quarter here, you know, and they're feeling stuck or overwhelmed and just things aren't working out in their business.

Advice For Owners Feeling Stuck

SPEAKER_03

What's a piece of advice you'd want them to hear from you today?

SPEAKER_00

Sorry, I feel like we're still in the quick fire round. So I'm just gonna say the first thing that comes to the top of my head. But focus on what you can control. That's that's all you can do. And and I've been there. I've been there as a sole proprietor in my home improvement business. It's a lot easier in a partnership with you know, having Kiri to bounce ideas off of, but you know, focus on the things that you can control, and eventually that you know doing the right things is going to come to fruition. Compromising your integrity to try and and turn things around is definitely not the way to go because that'll wind up biting you in the long run. But my suggestion would be focus on the things that you can control, and I would find another business owner or mentor or whatever you want to call it. Find somebody else in your community that you could sit down with and bounce ideas off of and really just get some outside counsel, an outside perspective of where your business is at will help you more than you know.

SPEAKER_01

I'll add one small thing to that because Ben and I are faced with doing this right now as we're growing. A lot of business owners are afraid to hire people smarter than them. That's antithetical. Period. Hire the best person you can, even if they're better than you. Ross Perot is one of the smartest businessmen that I've ever been privileged to listen to and read. And you know, when he's asked for his secret to success, he said he hires people that are better than him. And so if you're in a rut and you don't know what to do, and as a as a business owner, hire someone that's better than you. And it's not it's not an ego thing. That's what you want.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. It's not I love that. I love that. I felt like that's really good advice. So, what's next for roof guys of East Tennessee? What should people be excited about coming up in the near future? I know we're heading into full-on spring and warm season.

SPEAKER_01

I gosh, hey, that's a that's a hard one for me because it all comes back to the same thing. It's not about new products or you know, the next new thing or whatever. It is the grind of doing the right thing on every job, every single time. It's not flashy. There's no bells and whistles. I I believe in putting your head down and doing the work,

Expansion Plans And How To Connect

SPEAKER_01

and that's really all I think about. Is that is that bad?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean, I I think there are, you know, we talked about markets and territories and things like that. I mean, that that's really the the only exciting. I guess it's only exciting for us, but I guess for your your neck of the woods, we're coming to North Carolina as soon as we can get the right person and get them trained and working the way that we want it to be done. You know, that's that's the next big thing, I guess, is expanding over towards Asheville. And just so you know, the the crews that we have would be the crews that are doing the installs would be the same installers that we're using here. We would just have to bring on a a guy that can run sales appointments and manage those jobs on that side of the the mountain, if you will. Um but yeah, I guess that's the that's the most exciting thing I can come up with, other than we'll get to go eat lunch later.

SPEAKER_03

Now, is that all is that gonna be for all of Western North Carolina or just the Asheville area?

SPEAKER_00

We would rather do west of Asheville. We already do Maggie Valley, some of that stuff over there, and then all the way we're talking with uh a couple of customers in Burnsville. So, yeah, any anywhere in western North Carolina, anything west of Asheville we can handle. Okay. Okay, perfect, perfect.

SPEAKER_03

All right, and finally, what's the best way for someone to connect with you or learn more about what you all do?

SPEAKER_00

Website, Facebook, text me. I don't I guess the best way is probably the website. There's a contact form. I'll get that email real time and we'll get back to them pretty quickly most of the time.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, perfect, perfect. Yeah, so guys, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate you guys coming on today, you know, and sharing your perspective and your come up and you know, but your behind the scenes of your business. Really appreciate you guys, and I wish you all continued success.

SPEAKER_01

Well, thanks for having us, Cliff.

SPEAKER_03

We appreciate the time we enjoy. Yeah, really appreciate you guys today. Thank you.