Mum was getting worried as Cooper was not himself and this had been going on for too long. He was getting more exhausted and sickly as time went on. Thinking outside of the square his Naturopath Emma Wisbey discovered the problem and before long he was back to his normal bouncy self.
Mum was getting worried as Cooper was not himself and this had been going on for too long. He was getting more exhausted and sickly as time went on. Thinking outside of the square his Naturopath Emma Wisbey discovered the problem and before long he was back to his normal bouncy self.
Emma is an old friend of mine and has been a practitioner for 25 years.
Emma Wisbey:It is making me feel very old. But yes, we have a long standing relationship in the healthcare industry.
Daniel Baden:I shouldn't say old friend, because I should say long standing friend. You're right. So we're very lucky to have Emma on with us today, because Emma is extremely experience. Emma, today, you'll be talking about a young chap that came to see you, your five year old boy, and your old 10 year old, I'm sorry. Okay, year five, that's where I got confused. He presented with some ongoing
Emma Wisbey:he's from a family that I see, all the individuals have, and his mom was just quite concerned that he'd had COVID earlier in the year, but just a run of illnesses, and really wasn't himself. So he, you know, no sooner get over one thing, and then he'd be down with gastro, and most of the illnesses he was dealing with was sort of lingering around for a long period of time. And he
Daniel Baden:So typically, when we see anyone, children or adults, with postfire, we automatically as I mentioned, think about post-viral syndromes, you and some other tests. And I guess you'd be looking for markers for more insidious type conditions with that sort of profile. And also, you also ran some thyroid tests. So what led you in that direction?
Emma Wisbey:I think it was the fatigue more than anything. And I do like to, I find the thyroid is quite an interesting organ, because it usually is responding to something else. But it gives us lots of clues. So I just really recommended that she go back and see her GP, she actually saw a local GP wasn't available, and ask if we could run some some further testing. And if possible, if thyroid
Daniel Baden:Yeah, okay, good. Came back showing that there was indeed a thyroid problem. Yes. What was the actual power problem? Can you describe it to us from?
Emma Wisbey:Yes, so with the test result, the TSH was 4.6. And vitamin D was particularly low. There were a few I haven't got the test results in front of me, but the white white blood cells had a few sort of anomalies in there also. So we could see that something was happening with the thyroid. And obviously, with the immune system as well, that we we did a few more tests, the mother was keen
Daniel Baden:Okay, and just so everyone knows what what is TSH, please, yes. Ah,
Emma Wisbey:so, TSH is a tricky one because it's a hormone that's produced in the brain, but it's used in Australia in particular, and some other Western countries to measure thyroid function. So it's really an indicator of what the brain is telling the thyroid to do. But once we get any anomalies there, we do need to test the thyroid itself because it doesn't tell Last what the thyroid is
Daniel Baden:Are there other things that can affect TSH and your experience?
Emma Wisbey:Yeah, absolutely. So stress is a big one. But when I'm looking at children, it's not such a huge issue. Certainly pregnancy, when moms are pregnant with children, they're often producing thyroid hormone for the BB and themselves. And at the same time, we've got the immune system dampening down a bit. If we're talking about females, then menstrual cycles and things that then can affect
Daniel Baden:Okay, so the results came back after the full panel and showed some indications for Hashimotos. Disease. Yes. And could you just briefly explain what Hashimotos is about?
Emma Wisbey:Yeah, so Hashimotos is a condition where the thyroid is under functioning, so it's sluggish, but it is an autoimmune condition. So it's usually where we identify and certainly with this case, we did thyroid antibodies, and there's a few different antibodies that can be present. But that indicates to us that the body's immune system is attacking the thyroid in some way, shape, or
Unknown:especially seems to have some relationship with inflammatory conditions as well. But also quite specifically inflammatory conditions that affect the gut. And one of these might be gluten, as we say, in celiac disease. What do you think that relationships about?
Emma Wisbey:There's a few different correlations there. And this certainly relates to this case, too, because the GP when she ran the thyroid panel, Forrest did identify celiac genes for this particular child. So that gave us a little bit more to work with as far as diet and lifestyle recommendations and cause potential cause for why the thyroid had this auto immune presentation with the
Daniel Baden:Okay, it certainly is. And I'm always fascinated with the connection that a virus can bring to the situation as well, where a number of viruses can actually trigger a genetic response. So the gene may have been dormant. But via in this, this young boy had a lot of, you know, viral infections, and you wonder how much of that actually triggered this celiac response? Yeah,
Emma Wisbey:absolutely. Absolutely. And also, just when we look at autoimmune conditions, the jury's out, there's there's no sort of one group of researchers that have identified causes for autoimmune conditions. But there is one theory that a dysregulated immune system might be part of that. And that if we look, you know, at people that have suffered with various different viruses, a
Daniel Baden:Yeah. And yeah, and the other approach, I guess, is the virus can also significantly affect the microbiome. short term or long term, which will have its other knock on effect. So it's an interesting and complicated puzzle.
Emma Wisbey:Yes, absolutely. So
Daniel Baden:you saw the boy, you ran the tests, you came to some diagnoses to look like it was a celiac Hashimotos type situation. What was your next step from there
Emma Wisbey:because we'd kind of been working on the immune support initially before we ran the test. So you'd already been prescribed zinc and vitamin C and vitamin D, there was a fair few symptoms around gut dysbiosis. So we had a really nice little Saccharomyces and glutamine formulation for supporting his gut health. We then when we identified the high TSH, I prescribed some thyroid
Daniel Baden:Okay, so he seemed to have the symptoms of a gut dysbiosis. Also, did he have any of the you know, just so people can be on the lookout about what gut dysbiosis is about? Did he have any of the macro symptoms that you would typically expect, you know, wind or loose bowel motions, or?
Emma Wisbey:Yeah, he's bowel motions, but really unpredictable. That was difficult to identify initially, because as part of his run of infections, Gastro was certainly one of them. So his mum and him weren't sure whether that was to do with the gastro virus that he'd experienced lots of bloating, appetite, swinging around quite substantially, going from not being hungry at all, to you know,
Daniel Baden:So these viruses and other bacteria can really knock around the normal, healthy bacteria that live in our gut
Emma Wisbey:100%. And we've got to remember that 75% of our immune system or our initial immune responses is in the gut, particularly for kids, I see that a lot with children, I'm often educating parents on that their first line of defense. So as soon as we see something not quite right happening with their digestive system, it's a good indicator that we can sort of jump in and work on a
Daniel Baden:Yeah, and I think that's really important, because the earlier you can improve a dysbiotic gut, the better it is because the long term effects of dysbiosis can be a further breakdown of the gut tissue itself. Absolutely.
Emma Wisbey:Absolutely. And if you think about genuine, you know, even having children of our own, the first thing a child will come and tell you if they're not feeling well is I've got a sore tummy. And sometimes a sore tummy is about the nervous system and then feeling quite anxious, but that tends to be where they feel things first, where they feel something's not quite right. It's a really
Daniel Baden:That's a really good point. Thank you. Okay, so how did I mean there was a few supplements and some directly change you've instigated what was the main dietary change.
Emma Wisbey:We worked on sort of the celiac model of gluten removal. The GP did ran ran tests on the entire family and we identified that mum also has a celiac gene so that that did make the dietary changes a little bit easier in that there's now two members of the family that are needing a gluten free diet. The gluten free was probably a little bit easier in this case because his mom had
Daniel Baden:So I guess compliance in these sorts of situations has two aspects. One is the dietary change, which, you know, that takes some thinking but also getting kids and adults to take supplements. So typically, when you're naturopathic medicine, you might start off with a bigger amount of supplements and reduce over time, how did he deal with all supplements,
Emma Wisbey:he was pretty good with kids, I always try and involve them in the process, particularly this age group, where by a 10 year old sometimes is quite happy to swallow tablets or capsules, others won't want to do that at all. So we did have a few discussions around, is he happy taking a capsule is he alright? With the powders, the beauty of the the GI or the gut powder that I
Daniel Baden:about your approach, and the way naturopathic medicine works is that it act as mentors or teachers, to the patient. And it's always a journey that we go on with our patient. And I, I kind of feel that if you're holding the patient's hand down the journey, the results at the end of the road, certainly much, much better and easier.
Emma Wisbey:Yeah, absolutely. And I think because a lot of what we do is very individualized. So yes, we individualize around what's going to work for this patient, but also just individualizing around, you know, what dietary changes are going to be the most successful or the most coherent, what remedies are going to work best for that patient, what's going to fit with their routine, we can
Daniel Baden:I think you hit the nail on the head, one of the most difficult questions as a naturopath that I find I have to deal with is when someone sees you in a social situations is or do you have a remedy for weight loss? Or do you have a tablet for a common cold? Because it just doesn't work that way for us?
Emma Wisbey:Yeah, that's right. That's exactly right.
Daniel Baden:How long did it take to start to see some change in the patient,
Emma Wisbey:we got great results between those two, lots of pathology tests was a good indicator for us, because that was around six weeks where we saw the TSH go from, you know, high fours to 2.47. So that dropped quite quickly. It's been four months now pretty much spot on for months, and we've really got a 10 year old child that's back to his normal self. So weeks initially and pathology
Daniel Baden:Yeah, that is really exciting. Well done. So how do we then maintain the patient after they improve? Because, you know, part of the education process is saying, Well, this is how you should consider living right now. But some people get better and then they just go back to their old ways. Do you have a way of guiding people down the
Emma Wisbey:long term I like to talk patients through hopefully not needing remedies and supplements all the time that is getting a little bit harder because of soil erosion and climate change and just the inability to get some of these nutrients In through diet alone, but I do work towards sort of more that lifestyle medicine approach, longer term if we can. Some of it is also about, like you
Daniel Baden:I guess that also comes to building confidence to listen to themselves. Earlier, you mentioned that, you know, he went through some self selection and his diet, I often think that's so important to listen to. The body knows what he needs to do. You just need to remember to trust our intuition.
Emma Wisbey:Yeah, absolutely. And I talk to patients about that quite a bit. Because diets such a great example of that whereby someone will come in and they're doing something that with their diet that a friend had recommended, or it was in a book that they read, and they feeling horrible. But they're persevering, because it's something that they've read is the ideal diet. So absolutely
Daniel Baden:Yeah. And mums and dads seem to really know, when there's a change, even subtle changes are so quickly picked up faster than any lab test.
Emma Wisbey:Yeah, absolutely.
Daniel Baden:I think it's important to you know, as soon as you feel that there's a change of concern that you see a holistic practitioner, because the sooner you can deal with things, the better.
Emma Wisbey:Absolutely. And often with a subclinical presentation, sometimes the disease hasn't progressed this case is, is wonderful, because it gives a really good example of how far things can escalate. And how many clues we can get. But for some children, we don't see that in the pathology. But that doesn't mean that their body's not functioning well, because they're sleeping after school.
Daniel Baden:Yes, yes. Okay. Well, that's great. Emma, that is an amazing case. Thank you. And I'm so happy with the result, are there any take home messages you can pass on to our listeners,
Emma Wisbey:I think one of the biggest take home messages for everyone, particularly given the health crisis that we've just sort of come out the other side of it is just how big an investment our health is, how important preventative health care is, when we're seeing a system that needs lots of support. We've got lots of health care providers that are really under the pump. And I think the
Daniel Baden:yeah, yeah. Wealthier in every aspect, not just financial, but emotionally.
Emma Wisbey:Set. Yeah, yeah, that's definitely what I mean. I think there's lots of things in life that come and go, and things that we can, you know, we can build a house and we can, you know, have a healthy bank balance and what have you. But if you haven't got your health, you can enjoy all those wonderful, wonderful things. And we've we've focused so much on the health of our environment,
Daniel Baden:quite lucky because you live in, I guess, semi rural area, but first poor city, people just don't see enough green. And I think, you know, talking about the environment that is so important for people just to spend a bit of time in nature. And there's some good science behind that as well. So it's part of the picture. We've got to look after our environment.
Emma Wisbey:Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
Daniel Baden:Okay, I'm gonna Well, look, that's great. I'm so grateful for you. I know how busy you are, how crazy busy you are. So I'm so grateful. You could spend a few minutes for us and I really hope that one day we can catch up with Can I have another chat?
Unknown:Sounds great. Thanks, Daniel Q Emma, already by
Daniel Baden:clearly, Emma left no stone unturned and hoping Cooper, a young patient, whoever I thought it'd be interesting to have a chat with Cooper's mother, Hannah, just to hear her side of the story. Hi, Hannah.
Hannah:Hello, how are you?
Daniel Baden:I am fabulous. Hannah, you are the mum of the patient we say to Emma Wisby about and his name is Cooper. And he had a great result with natural medicine. Absolutely. So I'm just interested to know how you as a mom, choose natural medicine when deciding what you do family's health and also what your own journey was and how you got to natural medicine yourself.
Hannah:Okay. Natural Medicine has always our since I was a kid, been a part of our lives because my mom would come to us with lavender oil, if we had a headache or put tea tree on our mozzie bites and it was never really his Panadol for this or the doctors for that don't get me wrong, we went to the doctors that we grew up with separate options, more natural. Yes. So my mum has instilled that of my anxiety is towards medication. So I would refuse it. And the doctor one day told me that my solution was here needing medication, and I was walking around in circles, so it was never going to get better. Long story short, I went to Emma and it did get better. Because when she looked at my blood tests, although the doctor had looked at it and said these are all fine. She said in their eyes,
Daniel Baden:For me, you're speaking from the heart, and that's what we're interested in. Yeah. So you mentioned that your other son broke his collarbone. And there are other conditions that happen from time to time and a family and you have a choice of going to the naturopath or going to the doctor and doctors do perform a really important role in society and we would be in bad state without
Hannah:So obviously the broken collarbone did involve a hospital trip to the hospital and I wasn't going to say no, don't give him that Those painkillers when he was clearly in pain, and just let me call Emma and see if there's something we can do right now. So I did trust, the paramedics and everything and everything that they did absolutely, my son was in pain and he'd hurt himself. Herbs
Daniel Baden:So your son Cooper had a series of viruses with which you seem to have got him into a situation where you develop some potential thyroid issue and a bit of Hershey motors and a bit of celiacs. And and did that all make sense to you as a as a mum,
Hannah:it was very, I was very worried for a while it feels like it was about a five months worth of him just not being right. And as his mom, I knew he wasn't right, he was flat and tired and not eating, like he usually does and not sleeping, and he would randomly vomit every couple of days. But it didn't seem like your usual stomach bug. And looking at him, he just didn't look right either.
Daniel Baden:And do you talk to your doctors about the fact that you're seeing a naturopath at the same time? Or is that something you keep a little quiet?
Hannah:No, I? I do. That's where the story gets a bit. When I went this was a new doctor because my regular doctor was just so hard to get into. So when I went back in and I said with the white blood cell blood test, can we add in vitamin D, I think we wanted in there and the thyroid panel because Emma said that she'd be interested to see the thyroid panel. And I haven't been back to this doctor fell instantly in love because she loved that I saw a naturopath and understood that they could both complement each other.
Daniel Baden:And at the end of the day, it's all about the patient isn't that it's getting better and it's wonderful. Okay, look, I think I just wanted to touch base and just talk to you so we can help people who are not sure whether natural medicine is right for them or their family. And I think your comments just now have really solidified the importance of working together, both natural
Hannah:Thanks for having me.