Surviving a Narcissist

Narcissists can slowly make you feel like you are losing your mind. So imagine what it must feel like when the narcissist is someone significant in your life; destroying your confidence; draining your energy and making you question what is real. The impact will be felt mentally and physically. Tracey Hogan has experienced this and describes the process of recovery in her book " Life After Narcissists: It’s Time to Be Happy Again ." Recovery is very possible and is enhanced by nurturing both mind and body. 

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Hi everybody, welcome to A Patient Story. And today we'll be talking about narcissism. It originates from the Greek mythological figure, Narcissus, but became applied to psychological terms in 1899 through a doctor Paul Nackey, who related it to people that admire their own bodies as self-fulfilling sexual objects way too much. So people that were self-indulgent sexual deviants became narcissists in that time. However, the definition changed over time and the psychiatrist Havelock Ellis described sexual perversion. But then Freud had an influence on it and adopted the term in 1914 and moving it beyond just sexual perversion to a partly normal development phase. And that's all history because the modern meaning unless I'm corrected by my very special guests, and I'm sure she'll add to this, but the modern meaning is that it has evolved to mean a personality trait or personality disorder marked by extreme self-centeredness, grandiosity, entitlement, and a lack of empathy. And with that, I'm going to say hello, Tracey Hogan.

Hi, Daniel. Thanks for having me.

Absolute pleasure. Tracey, you're a naturopath. nutritionist. You've done additional courses in being trauma informed and you've done specialty courses in helping people get through narcissism as well. But you've written a book. Your book is called Life After Narcissist. It's Time to be Happy Again. When did you come to write this book? What experiences did you have that brought you to this moment thinking, oh my goodness, I've been through a tough time. I need to talk about it. I need to write about it.

Okay. Yeah. So it came about, it's been, it was in the wings for about 10 years. But from a personal perspective, I have lived experience like growing up within a narcissistic dynamic household. And then, because I knew no different, I married a narcissist who was financially and emotionally abusive towards me, which was a long time ago now and a very long time ago. And what I realised over time was that with patients in clinic, if there was some kind of emotional issue that they were trying to work with, because narcissistic abuse is so incremental and it's so insidious that they weren't aware of what it was. And it hasn't been really named and mainstreamed in the wider world, I think, except for the last few years. It's becoming more and more known and there's more and more education around it. But what I found was that when people did understand about narcissism, They would generally go to a talk therapist, which is great, and I really do highly recommend that. And I've gone down that path myself. But a lot of talk therapists, as well as complementary medicine practitioners, aren't informed about what happens with narcissistic abuse and the way that it changes not only how you react to things, but also the way that your brain chemistry works and the way that your stress hormones work. And as you know, with us both being naturopaths, we have some fantastic tools in order to help people with their nervous system and also with the physical fallout of narcissistic abuse. So.

I'd like to explore that more with you shortly. But just to get some idea of the problem itself, do you know how big the problem of narcissism behavior is?

Yes, there's a global expert called Dr. Imani Dervisula, and she has an estimate that there's around 15% of the population that are narcissists. And there's different types of narcissism as well. So it's not a one-size-fit-all, but they do have a particular pattern of what and how they display their behaviours within a relationship, whether it's an intimate relationship, a family relationship, or even in the workplace. And that pattern, once you see it, you can't unsee it.

I know that there is a number of and developing subtypes of narcissists out there. But I think, and please, you're the expert, not me. I understand that there's probably two major categories in my way of thinking. One is overt and one is covert. And I suppose the overt ones are very obvious. And everyone will pick up someone who's incredibly arrogant, dismissive of other people in public, and just awful behavior often in public, belittling of partners or children or whoever's around them, staff, employees, all that sort of thing. And then the covert ones who just seem to be super nice people, often fit into society. People will say, that's always a nice person or she's a nice person. But at home, when the doors are closed, very, very different story and a different type of manipulation, although, you know, similar, outcomes. Do you have any thoughts around around those two types of people and what's more common or what we see? Because it must be so difficult if you're in a relationship with a covert narcissist and trying to get help from family and friends and they're saying, what are you talking about? They're lovely. It must be quite a difficult situation.

Yeah. And that's that goes with the overt narcissist as well as the covert narcissist. So I can talk to you about the different types and give you a bit of a picture. So the first type, you know, you have the self-righteous narcissist, you know, that they're superior and you might see them, I can give you a really good example, how they treat people in the service industry. So if they're looking at, if you're at a restaurant with them and they're really rude to the waiter or, someone at a supermarket, they might slam the money on the counter. And just really that air of superiority. So that's one type. The next type is the grandiose narcissist. And they're the ones that, you know, are bigger and better than everybody else. They always have the better story and they always have the thing that happened to them that was more. And they have also, you know, that air of superiority, which runs across all of the types of narcissism, but it expresses in different ways. And the next type is, and this one is really an interesting one. And I saw that expressed about a month ago. at a forum that I was at and it was really interesting just to watch it all unfold. And that one is the benevolent narcissist. And the benevolent narcissist, they will normally get caught up in charity work or... you know, working for community and the way that they express their narcissism is they don't do it for, you know, for the services of others. They do it to say, look at me helping others. It's not about the actual act of helping others. And they can be, you know, the most giving and kind individuals on the outside. But when it's behind closed doors, it's a totally different situation.

So it sounds like it's, you know, I know that, and this is beyond the scope of this podcast, but there's a long list of behaviours and childhood behaviours that may create a narcissist from, it could just be a temperamental personality that could be spoilt and lacking self-regulation. their own parents, maybe some form of narcissist or, you know, conditional love. You know, if you do this for me, you can have this sort of thing. And also, I guess a lot of children or young adults not being taught how to manage disappointment. And, and all of that to me, I mean, as a, as someone who hasn't studied this, but all of this to me just suggests these are people that are screaming out for love and appreciation. And is, is that a, is that the bottom line, is there more to it than that?

Yeah, that's a really good description. I think with narcissism and narcissistic behaviours, we all have certain narcissistic behaviours at time, you know, as a means to an end. And you know, you can see that particularly with teenagers when they, the way they can carry on at times. But it, there is an argument as to whether it is nature or whether it's nurture and whether it's learned behaviour. Generally, within a household, particularly when there might be more than one child, if there's a narcissistic parent, the narcissistic parent can play one child off against another, and one will be the golden child. and one will be the scapegoat, and one will be the truth teller, can see it for what it is, and they usually end up being the black sheep of the family. There is evidence to suggest, or the criteria for narcissism has amended slightly now that it's being expressed as selective empathy, because one of the characteristics is that they lack empathy, but it can be selective empathy. So, you know, on the outside to the outside world, they might present themselves as being highly empathetic and they know what it is, but to their targets, they show no empathy and no remorse for their behaviour. And back to your point about being, you know, crying out for help, the narcissist has a lot of shame around who they are, but they don't express it as as shame. They look for what's called a narcissistic supply or someone to provide them with a constant glorification and being told how wonderful they are in order to hide that they're actually quite shame.

So basically they use people as food. Emotional food.

Yeah, that is. Do you know what? I have not heard that before and I'm going to keep that one.

I read somewhere that narcissists can have good levels of intelligence and strong observation skills. You can observe a crowd and spot what people who are popular do and mimic that behavior. They may not have empathy themselves, but they can see someone that's got a lot of friends and respect and those people act in an empathetic way. And so they go, oh, this is what I have to say or do to get positive attention. Is that a fair comment?

Yeah, that's a very fair assumption. What they will do, you know, to be either part of a group or to attract a partner or, you know, even in a work situation, is they will mirror. So they mirror the person. Using an intimate relationship as an example, you might meet someone and it's real quick the way that the relationship unfolds. So they'll say, oh, you know, you understand me more than anyone else. I felt like I've known you all my life. You are my soulmate. We like the same music, we like the same food, we have the same. hobbies and interests and we're meant to be together and it happens really fast and they might declare their love really, really quickly. They might move in really, really quickly. And that's called love bombing. And, it's a signature move of narcissists. in a workplace, it's like, oh, we're so glad you're here. You're going to save our business. Can't believe, you know, you fit so well. I'm really reliant on you. get me. And once they've done that and they've love bombed you and you are ensconced in this relationship, no matter what type of relationship it is, there's a next, phase called the devaluation phase. And that can be very subtle, and this is where it becomes really, really incremental. And it's, yeah, it's devaluing the other human being and what they're could be starting to call them names or calling them stupid, or, oh, look, you can't, let me handle that, you can't handle that. or I'm just looking out for you and the devaluation extends to their friends and family, they might start to isolate the person from their friends and family. Oh, you know, they don't know you like I do. And that's, you know, from a particular stance, there's two other types of narcissism that we didn't cover before, which is covert and malignant. And a malignant narcissist, you know, can be very, very dangerous. And so they might be very volatile if you want to go out or be with your family and or you go against what they say. And so you start to walk on eggshells and start to modify your behavior and modify who you are in order to keep the peace. Whereas a covert narcissist has this very much a victim mentality and whatever I, you know, whatever I do and whatever I say, it never works out for me. You know, they're just so horrible to me, and all I'm trying to do is X, Y, and Z, and that can be quite covert. And they're the trickiest ones to navigate those two, the malignant and the covert narcissists.

Okay, 'cause I think you've answered a thought pattern for me, 'cause I was wondering, you know, no one goes out saying, Oh, I think I'm gonna go marry a narcissist. And I guess the person that they've met is, oh, I love your term, I love bombed. and just becomes infatuated with the person that they're with, whether it's through a personal relationship or a work relationship or whatever. And so I guess they get sucked in and the nurses get their hooks in and then slowly chews them up, for want of a better word. Is that how it sort of happens over time like that?

Yeah, and the thing is, it can happen within a period of weeks, months, or many, many years. And that's where it's hard to determine the pattern because they slowly, slowly chip away at your sense of self and who you are. So just from a practice point of view, the women that I've seen in practice are incredibly intelligent, smart, creative, high corporate performing jobs, also people in the care industry, because generally a narcissist will target someone with a high level of empathy because that's not what they express. And I always say that it's incremental and insidious because it does happen very, very slowly and they will create confusion and that's called gaslighting. So you might say, oh, it wasn't that great. We went to this building at 3 o'clock and met this person. And the narcissist will say, it wasn't 3 o'clock, it was 2 o'clock. And you'll say, no, it was 3 o'clock, I don't remember. And they'll say, no, it was 2 o'clock. And they will completely distort the reality of what happened. And they'll continue to do that until you start to doubt yourself. And you start to doubt your own reality and your own idea of what's happened. And with these women that I see, they start to become more and more confused. And they start to rely on the other person for their experience of events and or, you know, they start to rely on the other person to keep the peace. And that's what's...

You've mentioned a few times and in your book, you also, one of the starting comments you have is talking about women a lot. And from that, are women more affected than men or is it 50/50?

Predominantly it's women.

Okay.

I have seen a couple of men that have experienced narcissistic abuse and this devastation is the same regardless of the gender.

Right.

But it's predominantly women because women tend to want to fix the problem in the relationship more so. And narcissism is not gender specific. There's been a couple of instances. There's a lady recently that had a terrible experience with a narcissist. And it was absolutely devastating for her. And this was a female narcissist, a female friend that she'd had for a long period of time. And the narcissist will wear a mask. And when the mask drops, it can really be devastating for the person.

Yeah. And in a relationship, whether it's a work or a personal relationship, will the behavioural pattern of the narcissist become worse over time?

Yes, it escalates.

Yeah.

Okay. It does escalate.

So this must have obviously a devastating mental effect on the victim. and we'll get on to in a moment, the physical and physiological effect that this has on the person as well. But I'm just wondering if people start to, the victim, start to recognise change within themselves, or is it often friends and family say, hey, you're changing, what's going on here?

That's such an interesting question, and thank you for that, because the friends and family might say, I don't like him. But they've been love bombed so much and they're so convinced that this is my person, that they might think the friends or family might come around. Or alternatively, because the person expressing those narcissistic behaviors has slowly isolated them from their family and friends, they're unable to get that feedback from them. So, you know, what the narcissist wants is them completely dependent on that person.

Yeah, I've certainly known people where the victim was the child of a family. And as the relationship struggled and the victim was suffering mental health issues, the family took the side of her partner. Because the family was, I think, love bombed as well.

Yeah, yeah. And that can happen because the way that the narcissist is, or the behaviors that they display to the external world, they can be incredibly charming and incredibly giving and really supposedly open about who they are. you know, behind closed doors, it is a completely different story. And what they will do as well, because they slowly erode your sense of self, and they can push and push and push and argue with someone to the point where the person that they're arguing with, you know, the survivor, snaps and then will fight back. And that's called reactive abuse. And a narcissist might push the person to the point where they see that. And with everything that's going on in social media now, they might record that. And then it looks like the survivor is the issue when the narcissist has pushed them to that point. So yeah, and what a narcissist will do is something called triangulation. So they'll draw someone else into the argument or their point of view so that the survivor feels less and less like it's the other person's fault and will think, oh, you know, maybe it is me, maybe I am the problem. And every person that I have seen has said to me, am I the narcissist? And that's the question when they ask me that, I know pretty much that they're not, because they're self-aware enough to actually look at their own behavior and what they do.

Yeah. So Tracy, if I can just bring it back to you for a moment and if you don't mind sharing. You went through a narcissistic personal relationship. I know that you had one or two potential work situations as well. And I'm wondering what was the impact of that on you mentally and physically?

Okay. So with my marriage, it was a very long time ago and I was really lucky because I did have a couple of friends that would point out the behaviour. And they weren't isolated because they were part of a wider group. And so they supported me. I had a situation where I'd been at a barbecue and I'd had too many coffees at the end of the night. And my heart rate had gone up to 140 and it wouldn't come down. And I was trying all different, you know, complementary medicines to get it down. I ended up, I started to get radiating pain. And so I said, I need to go to hospital. And they said, well, off you go, I'm not taking you. And I went in and they said, oh, you know, we think we need to keep you here. And I said, no, I've got two little babies at home. I need to go back home. And anyway, Went back, went back home. It happened again, went back and they said, no, we're keeping you in. And the next morning, my ex came in with the children with a newspaper under his arm. And they said, well, Mr. So-and-so, we think you're-- I was in my 30s at the time. We think your wife might have had a heart attack. And my ex looked up at them and went, oh, yeah, and then just went back to reading the newspaper. And that was my moment. That was my moment when I said to myself, He doesn't love me. I've got to go. And I think everyone who's been subject to that kind of behaviour has a moment where they go, I've got to go. And the thing is, when you go, that can be the absolute worst time for you as far as danger and as far as escalation of the behaviours go. For me, it escalated in certain ways, but I did have a good support system and I did make a plan to go. And yeah, does that answer your question?

Kind of. as you go through a narcissistic relationship, as you mentioned earlier, your self-confidence erodes and that potentially makes you more vulnerable to mental health issues such as anxiety, depressive disorders, lack of sleep, lack of judgment, all that sort of thing. Are they common mental health situations that many of your patients and potentially you as well would have gone through?

Yes, definitely, because The area of the brain which governs fight or flight is the amygdala. And the amygdala gets activated during stressful situations and over chronic stress, over three months. That can affect the brainwaves. And that you go from what's called the alpha. state more into beta and high beta, there are three levels of beta and high beta is chronic stress. So with that you might have really high anxiety. You can experience depression, you can experience... there's fight, flight, freeze, fawn and flop. And, you might have that freeze situation where you can't do anything and you feel like you can't move. And then fawning is the people pleasing, you know, keeping the peace. And I see that in a lot of situations where they will, you know, where the survivor will do whatever they can to keep the peace because good times are really good. The bad times are really horrible.

And with those mental health and chemical, brain chemical changes, the knock-on effects would be increased cortisol, which will disrupt blood sugar levels and create more inflammation and other nutrient deficiencies associated with all of that. So you end up with a whole lot of physical body symptoms as well. Did you go through any of that or any of the patients you currently see?

Yeah, there's a lot of symptoms that are expressed physically due to long-term stress, as cardiovascular issues, like increased blood pressure, skin issues, like an increase in dermatitis. Gut issues is a big one. Why do I have irritable bowel syndrome? And I don't understand why my gut isn't working properly. And I think that's one of the key catchphrases, what does your gut say? What's your gut instinct telling you?

Gut feeling.

Yeah, and that is really connected to the vagus nerve of the brain. which predominantly governs things like heart rate variability and the digestive processes and even reproductive issues as well. So if it's a lady who might have menstrual issues, might have increased menopausal problems, and even the triggering of autoimmune diseases. And talk therapists who are trauma-informed about narcissistic abuse will highlight that too. their clients and say, what's happening in your body? There was a book that came out 12 years ago called The Body Keeps a Score by Bessel van der Kolk and it's all about trauma. And I found it really interesting because once I got to the end of the book, they talk about whole body. and whole body treatment. And I thought, that's what naturopaths do.

Yeah, So that's the segue I've been looking for. So the reason I ask the question is because I understand that talk therapies are so important for helping people get through narcissistic relationships. However, stepping back and looking at things holistically, We know, I think we both know, that to get the maximum benefit out of talk therapies, the body has to be in good physical and physiological shape. So I know that you do step back and take a holistic approach to these things. I'm wondering what you do for your patients to help them get through physically and mentally, but also help the psychologists and psychiatrists do their work.

Yeah, so with who I see in practice. And what you do as a naturopath is you take a full case history, of course, and you ask them when particular symptoms started, you know, and was there anything going on at the time? And you let it unfold that way. From a physiological perspective in the body, You've got the stress response that's been ongoing for so long, they might not even realize that they're stressed. I had one lady that I'll never forget. Her parents were killed in a car accident when she was really young. She went to foster homes and she was sexually abused in the foster homes. And then through school, she became a high performer. And then by the time she saw me, she was the CEO of a company and she was running on empty. And she came because she was burnt out. She told me her full case history and said, you know, so why am I so tired? And, you know, there just wasn't that awareness that everything had led her up to that. But what I will do is immediately Look at any nutrient deficiencies, like the standard ones, like magnesium and B vitamins and CoQ10, because chronic fatigue can be a manifestation of narcissistic abuse as well. And look at that from a nutrient perspective. From a herbal perspective, we look at any kind of herb that will down-regulate cortisol. You know, one of my personal favorites is sacred basil or holy basil. St. John's Wort, where they're not on any medications that can interact with it. I think that that's not in favor at the present time, but I think that that's a really good one. So, you know, a really good herbal mix, looking at what they're fueling their body with, their whole diet and their whole lifestyle. and getting them moving because sometimes they'll go in, they'll be in freeze and they'll be procrastinating and ruminating a lot. So just do one thing, you know, write a list, just do one thing, just get one thing done. And that will bring back a sense of achievement.

Yeah, yeah.

That's great.

Tracy, your book, how do people get hold of it?

Well, it's on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. and there's a link to it on my website as well. I know that it's in two local bookstores on the Northern Beaches in Sydney. That's Berkolow Books and Harry Hartogs. I'm not sure where it is on shelf at this point in time, but you can order it from any good bookstore.

Right. Okay. Okay. Or online, obviously. And once again, it's called Life After Narcissus. It's time to be happy again. How did you come up with the title?

Well, I think that there is an amazing life to be had after narcissistic abuse. And it's about getting back to who you are.

Yeah.

Or who you were, you know, a slightly modified and older and wiser version. And happiness is a right for every human being. And so I think that that was the culmination of, those two ideas, you know, because life is wonderful. But after narcissistic abuse, you really don't believe that you have the right to joy and happiness. And you absolutely do.

Yeah, absolutely you do. Well, look, thank you so much. And if people want to reach out to you, how do they get in touch?

My website is lifeafternarcissist.com.

Right.

And so you can reach me that way, or Instagram is life.afternarcissists, or I have another Instagram profile, Tracey Lee Hogan.

Okay, wonderful.

Thank you so much. It's such a huge issue. I actually didn't realize how big the issue was until I started reading about it in preparation for this conversation. And I was a little bit gobsmacked as to the extent of the issue. So thank you so much for bringing us to our attention. And hopefully people can start to recognise ways or issues in their own relationships or their patients and move on from there.

Thanks, Daniel. Thanks for having me.

Take care. See ya.

Bye.

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