THE ONES WHO DARED
THE ONES WHO DARED PODCAST Elevating stories of courage. You can listen to some of the most interesting stories of courage, powerful life lessons, and aha moments. Featuring interviews with leaders, pioneers and people who have done hard things. I hope these stories help pave the path for you to live out your courageous life.
THE ONES WHO DARED
Beating Burnout and Overcoming Imposter Syndrome: Lindsay Epperly's Journey to Entrepreneurial Success
Lindsey Epperly is the CEO of Jetset World Travel, which she has scaled from a one-person operation into a team of over 90 dedicated members, recently recognized on the Inc. 5000 List of fastest growing companies. She has been named to the Forbes Next 1000 List and was most inspired by navigating her industry’s greatest crisis while expecting her first child, a season she affectionately refers to as the “MBA I never wanted,” Lindsey is dedicated to fighting burnout and teaching others how to turn obstacles into opportunities on her podcast, Who Made You The Boss?
Burnout is a word that many entrepreneurs dread, but what if it could be the catalyst for your greatest breakthrough? In this episode, we dive into Lindsay Epperly's journey from an accidental travel agent to the CEO of Jet Set Travel. Lindsay's story is one of resilience, transformation, and the power of mindset. She opens up about how recognizing and addressing burnout became a pivotal point in her personal and professional life.
In this episode we also discuss:
- How delegation and relinquishing control has played a pivotal role in her company's survival and growth.
- The mental and emotional toll of entrepreneurship.
- Team management and the importance of hiring for cultural fit rather than just skills.
- Balancing personal and professional life.
- The challenges of scaling a business.
- Navigating burnout and personal growth.
- How she overcomes imposter syndrome. (Her approach may surprise you.)
Whether you're struggling with burnout, imposter syndrome, or the challenges of scaling a business, Lindsay's story provides a beacon of hope and practical advice. Her journey from an accidental travel agent to the CEO of Jet Set Travel is a testament to the power of resilience, determination, and the importance of evolving with the times.
For more of Lindsay's business insights and experiences, connect with her on Substack or https://www.lindseyepperly.com/
This episode is a must-listen for anyone looking to turn their challenges into triumphs and achieve long-term success in their entrepreneurial journey.
-Links-
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I have found that most of the times when I am burning out the deepest, it's actually my body positively screaming at me that it is time to evolve. And so it's almost like this tension of brushing up against, like who I am and who I've been up until this point are not going to be who I need to be for the next three, five, 10 years, and so if I stay in this position so I'll give you the example of when I was a travel agent right, like I couldn't keep being a travel agent and build this company and mentor people under me. Something had to give, but I loved being a travel agent.
Speaker 1:And it was what I was always known for being and I had a really hard time of letting go of that identity. But I had to let go of that to embrace a role as CEO, as business owner, as entrepreneur. So that was just one evolution and I've done that over the years in different iterations. But Kate's point was when I brought this up to her in my interview with her, I was like how do you know when it's actually burnout or when it's your body telling you to evolve?
Speaker 2:And her point was hey friends, welcome to the Ones who Dared podcast, where stories of courage are elevated. I'm your host, becca, and every other week you'll hear interviews from inspiring people. My hope is that you will leave encouraged. I'm so glad you're here, lindsay. Epperly welcome to the Once we Do Podcast. It is such an honor to have you on today. Thanks for having me, speca. I know it's going to be a really good conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you are quite an example of someone who you as an individual, as a woman, took a company from just a one-person company to having an acquisition of Jet Set Travel, and now you're an employee over, I think, what is it? 90 employees, right? Are we close to that? Yeah, we are, and being in the Forbes list, fortune Inc list. So I'm just really excited to have you on and share your story with the listener. And also just like how you overcame your fear, some of the mindsets, and just like the imposter syndrome that we all deal with when we're embracing something new and, yeah, so I'm excited to have you share. Thanks so much. Yeah, so who was Lindsay before you started your travel company, before the acquisition? Good, question.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I was a 19-year-old college student who wandered into a travel agency for a brochure and accidentally walked out with a job selling travel on the side of my college classes. So it's so interesting to think about, you know, a resume. I've never been hired based off my resume. I've never actually been hired Like it was just a total fluke of what happened there. And I was a student and I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur. It was very much in my DNA. My dad is an entrepreneur. I got to I call it my dinnertime MBA. That was kind of how I learned business, because I failed the only business class I ever took, but I knew I had the street smarts for it, you know, and.
Speaker 1:I knew I had the drive, for one day I want to own my own thing. I just didn't know what it was. And when I wandered into that travel position and I got to plan people's vacations and start seeing the way that, one, I loved serving my clients, but, two, I had a whole industry that I could impact for the better, and even the whole world. You know, the business as an asset for impact is such an important part of building a business. It was all just very attractive to me and so from a very early age, that was what I did. It's hard to think back to who I was before you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So how did you get to a point where, when you were faced with COVID, you're five months pregnant and here you are having to make a decision with your husband, like do we sell the home that we're about to or do we invest that money in the company? Like how was that process for you and how did you get to that point? Because that was a very pivotal point in your life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so okay. So from 19 to that point there was a decade in between of building the business. Right, there was me working on the front lines as a travel advisor for five years, then deciding to go and launch what was called Epperly Travel. That was my business and what would eventually become Jets at World Travel after we acquired another company, and we'll kind of get there in a second. But basically I was building up Epperly Travel and I was starting to hit a bit of a wall and, you know, scaling it, and I'm very much a starter. I love starting things, I love coming up with 12 ideas before I'm even out of bed, you know. So I love this.
Speaker 1:But I was starting to stall out a little bit and my husband, who was my fiance at the time, had a key employee, decided to change industries and he was like, well, what if I applied for the job? And I was like, absolutely not. No, I really like our relationship and that would wreck it, I'm sure. But we just kept talking about this idea of freedom and flexibility for our family that we hadn't even begun to build. But we were about to, you know. And so we had entered into business together, and by business together. I mean, I still owned the business and he was working as an assistant, because I'm a total control freak. And then we are five months pregnant, covid hits, we have a home under contract and we have all eggs in one basket. We have a home under contract and we have all eggs in one basket.
Speaker 1:So to say that it felt like an absolute crisis of identity would be an understatement, because all I had known, again starting at 19, all I had put into the world was this one big, creative project.
Speaker 1:That was my business, and I thought it was such a reflection of my identity that when it began failing due to the pandemic and when we had to make the really painful choice of we've got to walk away from this home in order to save the business, I felt like you might as well just read it across my forehead, the giant word failure, right.
Speaker 1:Like I felt, like it was me failing, not the business failing. And so there was a lot of identity work that I had to do throughout that point, and I think it was so necessary and so fantastic because it helped me learn to separate who I am, what my identity is as a human, what I am on this earth for what my purpose is and the business that I created, which is just one facet of that. So it was a really beautiful, meaningful exercise, even though it was extremely painful. And during that time, we then got the opportunity to acquire another company called Jet Set World Travel, which was older than us, larger than us, a company I never in a million years would have dreamed I could have even worked for much less owned, and we were able to acquire them in 2021 and overnight, you know, more than double what we were, and the momentum just kept growing from there.
Speaker 2:Wow, and yeah, I think as an entrepreneur, that is something that people struggle with. Or as a creative even, you know the work that you produce is tied to your identity, or so you think. So without it, it's like, once that goes away, like who are you without that? And I'm curious to know what were some of the processes that you use to work through that to differentiate it. Like what would is some something practical that a listener can take away, like how did Lindsay work through that to get to where you are today? Because you know you're definitely in a very different spot now, where you know you have a healthy approach to that subject altogether.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know it's interesting. I think there's a couple of different directions we can take this conversation and you just touched on it. As a creative, I had to kind of dive back into my roots. So I, from a young age, knew I wanted to write, knew I was extremely creative. I saw that manifest in how I became a business owner and a business founder and builder with entrepreneurship founder and builder with entrepreneurship but I still had this kind of like I'm missing a piece of me, like there's still a piece of me that I know I was put on this world to do and that is right and honestly, spekka, that's kind of how you and I loosely became connected is I pursued writing by attending Bob Goff's retreat center, the Oaks, in 2021. So it was, oh my gosh, this is so interesting.
Speaker 1:I was at the Oaks as we were about to finalize that acquisition and this was not public knowledge at all at that point. No one in our team knew it and I sat next to. Did you happen to ever meet John Cotton, richmond? That is one of Bob's good friends? I don't think so. He does a leadership group with Bob and he was at this and I just remember telling him I'm like John, I don't even know you. You're one of the first three people I've ever told that I'm about to acquire this other company. And he was like this is my jam. Like I'm a leadership guy, I'm going to tell you like a few. And he wasn't like you know, he did not mansplain anything. He like very kindly, was like oh, here's how I would approach it and my entrepreneurship were able to start intersecting and I realized the ways that I could run those things side by side and that I didn't have to be Lindsay the travel agent or Lindsay the CEO or Lindsay the business owner or Lindsay the writer, that I could be Lindsay and that could holistically encompass all of that.
Speaker 1:So that was a really large part of that journey of separating myself, because otherwise I never would have thought there would have been room for creativity or pursuits outside of this, or you know that cute little hobby that is writing, if I was so tied up in what I had created as a business to think that's the only thing I can ever create full stop.
Speaker 1:So that was a large part of the work, some of the tangible parts of the work, just from a professional standpoint. We're truly learning to delegate, and so much easier said than done. But right before the pandemic happened I had a really good mentor tell me, the tighter you clean, the slower you'll grow. And I thought that's nice, you know, that's easier said than done. But then when it actually started, when I started living that and beginning to let go, that's when our growth became, you know, just monumental. And so I do think that learning to delegate because I was able to separate myself, because I was in a bit of an unhealthy relationship with the business for a long time, so getting to a healthier place where I could rest in my own identity and separate myself from that allowed me to help grow it and better delegate too yeah, and well, you started the company when you were 19.
Speaker 2:So, growing it yourself for so long you know it does it becomes like your baby. That's really hard to say. I trust someone else with this to take over some of these roles and some of the things. So what was that process for you Like of just saying, okay, I can, did it require therapy, like coaching, like what was that like for you to be like? Okay, I released this part and then this part? Was it like a slow process? Or was it something that you were like okay, this is a decision, I'm just going to go with it and I'm just going to kind of start moving towards it?
Speaker 1:It was a slow process and it was a nauseating process. You can ask my husband because he was the one who walked that journey with me. You can ask my husband because he was the one who walked that journey with me. You know, as we are walking side by side expecting our first child, making the decisions to keep this business alive, he's also seeing me completely burned out and going man, you know, I feel like I'm walking around with a match. If I just flick it, I'll just burn this whole thing down. I am just on the edge of saying put me into a stay-at-home mom position, which I've never. I love being a mom, but I've never longed for that. You know, it was just like I give.
Speaker 1:I was very close to giving up and he said you know, he's always coming up with his ideas, like what if I work with you? And then his idea at that time was well, what if you let me run it? You know like would like, let me think about that because, honestly, I could imagine myself because it's a control thing I could imagine myself burning it down before I could imagine myself trusting the person I literally trust the most on this planet to run it and so like no, no, in between, I couldn't have hired someone else to run it. I never would have trusted them. He was able to get through to me and say like this is not good for your health, for the pregnancy that you were having, for any of these things. Like, just give me a chance in the interim. And being able to do that with someone I wholeheartedly trust and love and respect, it was such a God-given gift, right Like I don't think I could have done it anything short of my literal life partner.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and what was something that gave you hope in the midst of that season? Because that was for you. Again, you're stripping of your identity, you're having to make really difficult choices. I'm sure fear came up. A lot of things probably were coming up through that. What's something that gave you hope in the midst of that hour?
Speaker 1:It was definitely the most difficult season I've ever walked, and it was an 18-month span that took an insane toll on my health too. I actually wound up then detouring into a full medical journey due to some of the kind of byproducts of what had happened during that time and stuff that was completely unrelated. So it was a very bleak hour in our lives, and by hour I mean two years. At that point, and so, honestly, faith was huge. Like having a faith to cling to was truly the only foundation that I think gave us hope during that time Knowing that we have survived and we can survive again right, like knowing that we are strong enough that we are going. I kind of had this. I had the, even though it was so scary, I had this through my faith.
Speaker 1:Piece of this is not happening to you, this is happening for you, and so having a larger mission and, honestly, that helped from a leadership perspective too, because I was very vocal about that with my team, as we were all walking through our industry's greatest crisis and we're all going oh my gosh, this is not what we imagined ourselves doing and will we survive?
Speaker 1:Will this company survive? What's it going to look like on the other side. What's it going to look like tomorrow? I was able to come to them and say I believe that we are meant, at Jet Set, to be a beacon during the industry's darkest hour, and so our mission during that time was to be a beacon, and everything we did was to put out light and was to help others and was to get through in a way that lifted up our industry and our colleagues, and that gave me purpose too, and so having a larger purpose and a larger why, versus just wringing my hands and waiting for the light to come out, taking the ability to be the light, was really what gave me that hope.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's almost like you took an aerial view perspective versus like being so consumed by the issue itself, and I think that's really important too for us as entrepreneurs to remove ourselves from the emotional portion of what's going on, because that can get a lot. You know, and if any person listening who had owned a business during COVID, I'm sure you've experienced some sort of a turmoil situation I know we have in our business. So it's like you just don't know what's going on. And I think having that perspective of, okay, what is the story that I want this situation to tell, how do I want this to unravel and come, and also seeing it from a bigger perspective, like you said, like okay, we're just going to transition into being the beacon of light in this situation. So I love that so much. Thank you, yeah, and also I want to touch on the imposter syndrome too, because whenever we are growing, there's something that comes up that is called imposter syndrome. So how have you learned to deal with it? What's your approach to that?
Speaker 1:created an entire podcast about it called who Made you the Boss?
Speaker 1:Because that is the question I would ask myself when I looked in the mirror.
Speaker 1:You know that was like the deepest inner critic question of like if people only knew, if people only knew I put my shirt on backwards this day, or people only knew I failed that business class, or if people only knew, like all the things that I admit to now. But I was like holding up as a perfectionist and and expecting that one day the the kind of the rug's going to be pulled out from under me and everyone's going to find out that I have no idea English major running a business, not a clue what I'm doing you know. Like that I would be found out. And so what I've learned and I've interviewed just now dozens of people about their own situations with imposter syndrome it's been so fascinating to learn from people that we from the outside, looking in, think they've never dealt with that right. Even Bob, like Bob Goff, you look at this person who goes into literal war zones and going like, do you ever feel like maybe you shouldn't be the one doing that?
Speaker 2:You know like asking those questions.
Speaker 1:Right yeah, and it's been really lovely to hear people open up, and what I've realized is that imposter syndrome is not actually a bad thing.
Speaker 1:It's a bad thing when we listen to it, when we believe it and when we let it stop us from pursuing our dreams. But if it's showing up, one, I think it's healthy. It means that our ego's kind of in check. But two, I think that it's actually because we're trying something we've never tried before. Because we're trying something we've never tried before, and so to me, when it shows up, I'm able to start saying like, oh good, I'm glad you're here. This means I'm putting myself out of my comfort zone in a way that I haven't, and so I actually have started trying to look at it. I even like created a resource, where it's called the imposter syndrome to inspiration, because I think that it's actually a really powerful tool if we harness it, that can help us go further. It just as long as we're not believing the lies, right. Not everything we think is the truth, and the inner critic is a great example of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so do you shut it down, do you?
Speaker 1:I kind of I think the common rhetoric is to silence it and I actually go against that. I actually I look at it almost like I think it was a Glennon Doyle and Oprah interview or one or the other or maybe both where they talked about emotions being individual at your dinner table.
Speaker 1:Right, you are at the head of the table, but at the table is anxiety and joy and sadness and like all of your emotions, and I think I think imposter syndrome is one of those at the table and maybe it wants to pipe up and say something and okay, thanks for being here, thank you for your contribution. And so I acknowledge it and I recognize that, all right, if it's here, that means I'm doing something scary, and then you just kind of think back to like what it means that it's present versus what it's actually saying. So it's almost this is actually a phrase we use in our business a lot that you're invited to the discussion but not the decision, and I feel that way about imposter syndrome.
Speaker 2:I love that You're invited to the discussion, but not the decision. That's so good, yeah. Yeah, because I mean fear can derail us, right. You can just feel like, okay, who am I to step into this new chapter, into this new endeavor, this project?
Speaker 1:But at the same time, if you don't take the action, you'll never know what's on the other side of that risk Right.
Speaker 2:So you'll have so much regret for not even trying? Yeah, yeah. And also like, how has your relationship changed with the risk from before acquisition into now? I'd love to hear about that.
Speaker 1:Okay, really good question, and I would say that the acquisition itself was not what shaded the example of risk. It was really the losing it all and then getting that amazing opportunity was, you know, an incredible byproduct of a down market, but the risk factor really came into losing it all. So it was like those I think it was about 10 months before we got the acquisition opportunity where we were just and we even when we acquired, we were in negative income still, so like we were just in the red for so long. I think you can go one of two ways. After experiencing that again, you can either become so fearful that it it nearly immobilizes you because you've now experienced the worst thing possible and you never want to go back to that, and so you're now. You're just going to play in the smallest, safest area that you can.
Speaker 1:Or, to me, it gave myself and my business partner, my husband, a lot of confidence to be able to take bigger risks, because we can say, all right, we have experienced the losing of it all, the crumbling of it all, and we survived. And not only did we survive, we were able to create purpose and meaning, we were able to shed light and bring positivity into other people's lives. We were able to do it for our own lives. It was really really freaking hard, but we did it, and so there's the confidence that comes with being able to walk through that kind of crisis, I think. But then you can apply to risk, and now we know too like when we're making business risks, we know for us. We are willing to risk everything but the home. You know that was such a difficult, painful situation. If we're making a business decision, we say to ourselves all right, is there a situation where, if this went so far south, we would literally lose our home? And as long as the answer is no, we feel pretty comfortable making that decision.
Speaker 2:I love that. So for you, it's like you taking risks, knowing that the competence essentially builds confidence. Right? So we have a history record here now. So it's like, ok, we can move on and accomplish other things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, before then I had only ever known an upward trajectory, which is an incredible privilege to say that. When I watched my dad in entrepreneurship, it was success after success. When I entered into entrepreneurship, it was success after success. And you know, so much of that is luck, so much of that is like where the circumstances I was born into, this color of my skin, like my background, I get that. And so when you do ultimately experience that dark side of risk, it was just to me it was like catastrophic Cause I thought pursuing business meant up and to the right, like I had never seen anything else but that. So it was a really I'm. I'm so glad that it happened because it it made me realize, like, just how much is outside of our circumstances and how much kindness and empathy we can give to others who, you know, are experiencing something that is so completely out of their control and are experiencing that dark side of risk. And it just made me a lot more attuned to what that looks like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean you don't feel like that in the hour, in that dark hour, right, it's just like someone get me out of this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean you don't feel like that in the hour in that dark hour, right, it's just like someone get me out of this. And the number of times I complained to my husband. This is so terrible I was. I was obsessed with watching Love Island, you know, when there's nothing else to do and I'm just like waiting on a baby to come. And I was like why did I spend my entire twenties building this business that was just going to fail? I could have gone on like a fun dating reality show and he was like I don't know how to take that.
Speaker 1:Why do you want to like? I threw away my twenties as a responsible human and of course it paid off. It was fine. But like, yeah, when you're in the middle of that, all you can do is just kind of like wah, wah, it's me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what would you say? Some lessons that you learned walking through that, just where you are today?
Speaker 1:What are some takeaways from that season for you? For me, a lot of it is one if I could learn to let go of control without having to be taught, that would have been nice. And so if I'm standing here, if I'm listening to this, and I haven't been through the crisis, that's making me like I think God knew for me he had to like wrench my cold dead hands off of my business. But if you have the capacity as a human to learn from that versus having to go through it yourself, like I, would much prefer that route, and I think it also just it reminded me of, you know, the resilience that we have as humans that I mentioned.
Speaker 1:I had a medical journey and it's about to be fall. I don't know when this is airing, but I wound up having a seizure. It'll be three years this October and like sitting at the kitchen table, totally normal day, falling over into a seizure, and it was due to a medication that I was on, but every time it starts becoming fall. I'm reminded of this because it happened in October and it was like the leaves were changing and that that rigidness, that journey, all happened during that time. So it's a very visceral time of year for me and I look back at that and I'm about to approach three years seizure-free and going, wow, like what a resilient. It's only been three years, you know. That felt like a lifetime ago, like just how much our lives can march forward and onward when we, when we we try and when we move toward our purpose. That was a big learning lesson from that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and would you say that was part of just coming to that phase of burnout in your business journey?
Speaker 1:A lot of it was a byproduct because of I was taking a medication for postpartum as well as just you know I was depressed during that time of. It was a byproduct because of I was taking a medication for postpartum as well as just you know, I was depressed during that time. Like it was, even though we had this greater mission and this greater purpose and let's be a beacon, we also had the day-to-day reality of every day we pull up our bank account, it's going down and every day we look at the reality and our clients are not traveling, and every day there was so little hope on the horizon. And I say that to you know, no one should feel shame that even though you're going through this circumstance and you are trying your absolute best to pursue your purpose and you're absolutely clinging to your faith, like life still happens. Mental health is still real. This is still very much a palpable reality that you were living in that terrible season and, yeah, for me that was all part of the journey to kind of truly hit rock bottom and I actually experienced a really amazing miracle out of all of that I was misdiagnosed from it.
Speaker 1:I wound up actually like spending three months trying to get a second opinion. I finally got a second opinion and they cleared me completely and said we don't see what you were diagnosed with. We see no evidence of that. To begin with, there had been scarring on my brain that guy that they found that they did not find three months later. And so to go through something where you're literally cleared in a matter of months from a different reality entirely, like that was yeah, and it was just a wake-up call. Too. Right that our health is something we can't get back, but if you're living in such deep, deep burnout or such deep, deep depression that you know that's impacting I had an 18-month-old at home like that was impacting me as a mother and me as a wife and me as a leader Like that was a huge wake-up call.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I thank you so much for sharing that.
Speaker 2:Lindsay, I love that you're being vulnerable with your story because I think, as entrepreneurs, that is rarely shared, like the dark side of it or the difficult side of the journey, because you know there's all this glory of coming on top and you know just doing all the things and the influence and all of that.
Speaker 2:But there's also a really difficult part of the journey that is rarely touched on where the grind and what that does to our health, our mental health, emotional health, all the healths and how much that really wears on us and that can be impactful in our bodies. And we can have symptoms that, like you're, like what am I experiencing? This is something new and it's just the stress of the grind, the stress of what if this doesn't pan out the way that I hoped it would, and what if the risk is going to go in a different direction. And so I love that that you shared that. What would you say to someone who's like in the middle of burnout right now? They're just feeling like they're just coming to the surface and they don't know how they're going to make it out of just this. They're drowning in the season of burnout.
Speaker 1:A few things. So one I actually just interviewed a fabulous woman named Kate Donovan who runs an entire podcast and program called Fried, and it's all about burnout. So she is such a fabulous resource. This interview with her was eye-opening to me because she comes to the table, she's so no-nonsense, she's like extremely direct, right, like our culture is is typically like hitting people over the head with positivity, like start a gratitude journal and and she's like that's the worst thing you could do, because, like you're just feeling such deep resentment. And so, to your point. Like, because, like you're just feeling such deep resentment, and so to your point, especially when you're in an entrepreneurial position, it's a very lonely journey, and so sometimes you're just you're carrying all of this resentment of like well, this person was complaining to me and I'm carrying the weight of this on my shoulders and I don't know what to do about this team member, and it feels so isolating. And then we're told, like you should be grateful, you should really be glad for what you've got. Especially as women, that is such a rhetoric that is used on us, and so I love how she actually it was like, no, you should admit to the things that you're becoming resentful of Like you should just call it out and actually put it out there.
Speaker 1:To say like this is difficult and again, that's one interesting too, I would say, especially if your audience is a lot of individuals who struggle with letting go of control and who have the power to do so, meaning you're building a team, you're scaling a company.
Speaker 1:It's very counterintuitive that letting go of control actually loosens that burden from you. You think like this is going to just give me one more thing to lose sleep over, because now I'm not in control of it. But when you have the right people on your team and we've been really intentional about appointing an incredible leadership team at Jet Set it actually I live with less stress than I ever have because the thing doesn't rise and fall on me anymore. And so I would say to that person, if they're feeling burnout, to kind of assess if there's anything that's actually within their power to let go of, because you don't think, naturally, to do that. But when you do, and when you do it to the right people, I even feel myself physically listeners. My shoulders are going down right, like when I think about who I was back, then they're raised, they're tight, I'm anxious, and when I think, about the work that we've done as a company and as a team. Nowadays it's evenly distributed in a way to where I am no longer bearing the entire burden.
Speaker 2:I love that you touched on that, and I interviewed Amy Lacey recently too and she talked about how our personal development on developing who we are, is so correlated with our business right. So it's like with the healthier that we get as leaders in the industry that we're in, the healthier teams get or companies get, and that's just kind of trickles down which sounds like that's kind of what you've been working on as well, and that's just kind of trickles down which sounds like that's kind of what you've been working on as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think I've heard especially as a founder this is probably true of any leadership role, right that, like your company can only grow as much as you can grow, and so if you stop growing or you become complacent or like it's going to stunt things as well. So so much of this journey is self-development and learning about your own limitations and how those appear in your day-to-day dealings as a business person, and I'm sure that feels the same way in an employee position too, like I think that's true of any professional. But it's so interesting for how long we've kept those two things divided and when they really are pretty integral to just being human right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so how do you go about choosing to hire people who you're delegating to? What are some kind of like your processes that go into bringing someone on the team?
Speaker 1:So this is funny, because if my husband ever listens to this, I know that he'll call me out if I try to take any credit. He does the hiring because I was so bad at it, but what I learned about myself, this is actually fascinating. I learned this within the past year and it's been a game changer. I learned that I love leading but I don't love managing, and those are two different things. And so what we had to do as business partners, nowadays he's been promoted beyond assistant. We're now literal business partners.
Speaker 2:so that we're turning to.
Speaker 1:But what we have to do is realize he's a much better manager than I am. He can come to the table with a lot more patience, a lot more grace. I'm kind of like get it done, bulldoze, move forward, but I'm able to think big picture and to lead and to inspire and to galvanize. And so we've. We see our two different strengths. And so, to answer your question on how we find the people, he finds the people because he looks at who could I work with Well, who could I manage what?
Speaker 1:What is my team missing? Like he does all the personality tests on the team to see and make sure we have someone in the right seat for everything and the right personality for everything. He's very strategic and this is not just going to be a hire for a skill, it's going to be a hire to fill the culture and the actual like absence that we might have on our leadership team. So I think, looking at the whole person and not just at a resume, and I think that's pretty, it feels pretty common sense, right. Skills you can train, character you can't. Absolutely. Yeah, that's been a big For me. I was hiring who do I want to be friends with and that never panned out well.
Speaker 2:Well, I think, is it Barbara Corkin from Shark Tank who talks about? You know she wouldn't hire anybody she wouldn't want to have dinner with. I believe that's something. She said something along those lines. So it's like you do want to be around people that are pleasant to you to some degree. I mean, maybe not your BFF, but like yeah, and also hiring for attitude versus the resume is huge, because you can train anyone to do almost anything if they have the right attitude. They're teachable, right Versus someone who's got an incredible resume but they're just not going to listen and take instructions and follow through.
Speaker 1:We have seen that, and we've also seen how that permeates a team too, right, the one toxic team member that can bring everyone else down. And you don't realize too, as a leader, how much time you're investing in that toxic team member until you have, thankfully, let them go. And you go, oh my God, why didn't I do that six months ago? Right, but it really can become a cancer to your leadership organization.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm curious what you think about this question that's often asked at interviews. Well, I've heard this asked. Where is like do you feel like you're lucky in life?
Speaker 1:Hmm, yeah, I definitely think it's probably equal parts luck and hard work, right? Like I kind of touched on this earlier, like I have no control over, I was born into a family where my dad is completely self-made, like I watched him work his way up and work really, really, really hard and come from absolutely nothing to build a really beautiful business, and so I was inspired by that. But I can't control the fact that I was born into that family and I can't control the fact that I was born into the skin that I'm in or the body that I'm in or any of those things. But I can't control how hard I work and I can't remember who said this quote maybe it was a Sarah Blakely or Glennon Doyle or something where it was like the harder I work, the luckier I get.
Speaker 2:Yes, I love that quote, that's very fair. Yeah, that's really cool. I love that. Well, I think with that question, from what I've heard before, it's essentially you're assessing if the person has like a victim mindset, that they feel like things are happening to them all the time, versus, like you know, I get to do things and I'm lucky in that sense, which, of course, yeah, there's only certain things that you can't control and things that you work hard for.
Speaker 1:You know, I think our culture's hyper obsessed with, with trying to make us feel like there's so much oppressiveness on us that we can't control. And I actually remember when I was like very early on in starting my business, I got interviewed. It was during like a political season and I got interviewed on a news outlet about well, do you think, if this politician wins that you as a female business person are, you know, are at stake to become a victim and all that? You know? Some sort of question like that. And I was like I've never even thought of that, like it just didn't even cross my mind.
Speaker 1:Because I do think if you have a certain attitude and grit to you, you're like, well, I'll just figure that out, right, like I'll just work around. That I mean, yes, there are real threats to our existence, that can happen. But like there's also an element of sometimes we just we want to believe we're victims because it's easier that way, right, victims because it's easier that way, right, versus this idea that like I actually do think that we can control a certain amount of our destiny by hard work and by grit and by determination. And if you are on that downswing, it's just what we've been talking about it's. You know, if you have purpose and you keep going, you will eventually see the other side of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's so true. Yeah, I love that, and I've interviewed multiple people too that have gone, you know, accomplished incredible success and they came from nothing, and it is having that mindset which is so important. And, regarding mindset, what are some ways that you cultivate that, that you just kind of overcome some limiting beliefs? I'd love for you to kind of touch on that as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I try to stick to a decent routine that helps me pour into myself. So that's yoga, meditation, that's spending time reading, writing, that's, you know, like quiet times, essentially like just making sure that I am poured into. And I found that my mental health is at its best when I am on a regular routine of that. But when it comes to like an active mindset, this idea that like if I start feeling myself kind of slipping to an anxious place or like kind of in a negative place, like it's being able to catch it more nowadays than I used to be able to, I used to kind of slip into that and live in that and now I can kind of observe like a scientist.
Speaker 1:I think is the way that I heard it phrased one time. That might've been a Brene Brown thing where and actually I feel like I was able to overcome a lot of my anxiety this way, by realizing when it was present. And same thing with imposter syndrome like realizing when it's present, acknowledging that it's present and saying, okay, here's what this means, but it doesn't have to be what's going to drive my next move, or it doesn't have to be what's going to send me to bed for the next four days. I do think there's a lot of truth that the mind is a muscle and that the more we exercise it, the more we're able to actually fulfill that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's so good. And also it sounds like you're becoming a lot more intuitive with your body and what it's telling you and just like listening to that. And I find that for me, the older I get, the more I'm aware of like okay, what's my body telling me and what does this mean? So, instead of just like ignoring it, disregarding it and getting to the place of burnout where you're like I can't do this anymore, Like something's got to give you know. So it's like catching those little signs earlier on, you know. So it's like catching those little signs earlier on, and what would be some of the things that you would identify as signs of burnout or early signs of burnout, as we kind of so.
Speaker 1:Well, it's funny I was taking this on more of a day-to-day basis as you were asking this question, because I was thinking about the intuitiveness and how I feel like mine has very much been parallel to motherhood and I have a one and a four-year-old little girl, little girls and I think about the times where I'm telling them all right, listen to your body, you know, do you need to rest, do you need to get a snack, do you need a drink of water? And it's like very basic needs. And I've started actually giving myself the same grace and the number of times I actually just needed a snack are pretty high when I'm like kind of being a little antsy. That's not burnout, though. That's more of the day to day, like mental health side of like just listen to your body and intuition. Yeah, from the burnout side, what I have found actually is just so interesting and I talked a lot to Kate about this in the interview Kate Donovan does the burnout podcast, because I'm so fascinated by it.
Speaker 1:I have found that most of the times when I am burning out the deepest, it's actually my body positively screaming at me that it is time to evolve, and so it's almost like this tension of brushing up against, like who I am and who I've been up until this point are not going to be who I need to be for the next three, five, 10 years, and so if I stay in this position, so I'll give you the example of when I was a travel agent. Right, like I couldn't keep being a travel agent and build this company and mentor people under me. Something had to give, but I loved being a travel agent.
Speaker 2:And it was what I was always known for being.
Speaker 1:And I had a really hard time of letting go of that identity. But I had to let go of that to embrace a role as CEO, as business owner, as entrepreneur. So that was just one evolution and I've done that over the years in different iterations. But Kate's point was when I brought this up to her in my interview with her I was like how do you know when it's actually burnout or when it's your body telling you to evolve? And her point was when it's really burnout there's a lack of resiliency and so if you cannot even fathom that evolution, if you cannot bounce back, there's no bounce back ability is what she calls it.
Speaker 1:That's when you've really got a problem on your hands with burnout and it's you know. It's absolutely worth getting a medical professional's assessment. It's absolutely worth pursuing and making sure that you are taking care of you when you realize there's that lack of resiliency. So I can usually now see like early signs of that. It's been years since I felt any sort of level of burnout to that degree. But that was interesting to me because I do feel like sometimes our bodies are just trying to tell us something you know more than I need a snack, but like hey, it's time to move on in this position.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I love that so much. You've been working on a book and I'd love for you to talk about it. Where is it in the process? Tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 1:Oh funny. You know I'm nothing if not brutally honest when it comes to everything that I'm dreaming of and working on, and so I've put myself out there in this book writing journey really early on, and it has evolved in so many ways, so it's fascinating to me to even think about, like wow, when you might have reached out where this would have been versus where it is now.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, and I resonate with that too. Yeah, it's constant evolution.
Speaker 1:I originally had set out to write a memoir actually, about this season of life where, like, everything was at its absolute bottom and how it was able to turn around because of faith and because of the you know, the opportunities that we made from the obstacles, and I have an agent who's been absolutely wonderful to work with. It's been so interesting, like learning this new industry, because it's so new to me, and we actually worked with pushing that out to publishers. Talking about the memoir route, it was not super viable for what I'm building in terms of my platform and my next steps there, and so I'm actually pursuing fiction right now, which is okay, that's wild, that's a wild shift. It is so much fun.
Speaker 1:I just love writing and so for me it's been like a really fun exercise to say, take my business hat and say, okay, well, what does the market want and would they be willing to buy it if it was this way, and to get an answer of like, yeah, actually we want to read that. I'm like, okay, cool, let me write it. So I've been taking some of my own life experiences and this is probably what's true of most fiction writers, right, like they're learning off of real life but flipping it in a way to where it's more entertainment than self-help, which really is kind of more of the content I consume. Anyway, I used to be a big self-help junkie in my 20s but now I'm like purely read for entertainment and so it's kind of fun to craft this as a storyline and to actually now I've you know dove into the world of like save the cat and learning, like the narrative beats behind fiction and, yes, so okay, that's awesome, that's so cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I was expecting something more in the line like you first mentioned, you know. But I mean I get that evolution too, because I'm in the middle of got my dream agents. I'm super pumped and we're in the process of getting it pitched to publishers and you know she's already warning me like it could look really different, like stop working on your manuscript, because it's probably going to be so different than what you imagine. You know, and it's as the author, you always have the final say of what your work is going to be like. But as far as the marketplace, like how does it fit right and how does it fit for the audience? So and I understand that from the business point too, because you being an entrepreneur, and and me myself as well so it's like you, you're like yeah, I get that it might not be the best sale in this category, or maybe if you craft the same lessons, the same kind of story in this turn in this way, it will resonate more with people. So that's so cool.
Speaker 1:I think, had I done this 10 years ago, like I've always known I wanted to write, I've always known I would write a book at some point Like this is just in my DNA, much like entrepreneurship. But I think if I did this 10 years ago, I would have been so mopey and sad and taken it so personal, you know. But like, if it's not, if what you've put out, this beautiful, creative, vulnerable thing is not viable to begin with, I think it would have been such a gut punch. And in doing it now actually going back to your question about like resiliency and risk and all of those things that I've learned, especially over the past five years doing this now is actually kind of like okay, fun, all right, I'm up for the challenge, right, like this is now coming in as a challenge I if the imposter syndrome's here, it's because I've never written a fiction book before, I've never written a book before, I've never published a book before. So like I'm just trying to acknowledge this all with a very beginner's mindset and and then just kind of shifting as needed and realizing, like what ultimately will come of this?
Speaker 1:I have no idea, but I know that it will be a reflection of those pivots, based off of the business acumen that I've gained over the past decade and like my actual desire to write, and that's been a really fun and none of this could have been possible had I not separated that identity from my business. To begin with, right, I would not have even been able to fathom creating something else and having this business run really well and beautifully and successfully and give a lot of people career fulfillment and plan a lot of really cool dream vacations while I'm pursuing this. Like to have both at the same time is a dream I didn't know that I could dream.
Speaker 2:I'm so excited to see what's going to be on the other side. No pressure, because from one writer to another like not asking your deadline or anything like that, not even going to go there but just I think it is a beautiful journey of like. When I started writing my book several years ago, I never expected it to be where we are today. I may have not have ever started had I known how long and all the things any endeavor you start right, it's like I didn't know it was going to take this long. I didn't know it was going to evolve into this. But at the same time, I'm looking back even this far in the process and it's like there's been so much beautiful things and transformation that aspired from being on this journey. So I'm excited, lindsay, with you where this is going to take you, and just you know what's going to transpire from this journey for you. That's awesome, thank you.
Speaker 1:You as well. I think it's really cool to see anyone who has graduated from the Bob Goff School of pursuing your writing, because you definitely go to one of his retreats or you start coaching with him and you start realizing like I don't know if I've been dreaming big enough. You know like it's really neat to meet someone else who's gone through that and it's pushed you in that direction and you've got an agent out of it. Congrats, that's so huge.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you, it is. It is a big deal. I mean, I yeah, and especially like landing your dream agent is a pretty big thing, and so I'm excited about it. I'm very grateful, of course, but I want to honor your time, and I usually wrap up the podcast with asking three questions. One of them is what is the bravest thing that Lindsay's ever done?
Speaker 1:I'm so grateful that you actually gave me these questions in advance, because I did like kind of chew on them because I think that the easy answer would be like oh, I started a business or I start you know like I think my easy answer to that question, just off the cuff, would typically be starting something is the bravest thing. But I don't think that's actually the truth. I think that for me in my life, when I look back over the years kind of even what we were just talking about with burnout, but then I have an even like deeper story with like past relationships the bravest thing that I have done is knowing when to leave and when to evolve and when to move forward and move on. So it's not necessarily starting something, because usually those things are very obvious. When I need to start something, it's it's knowing when to end the wrong things.
Speaker 2:Wow, that could be a whole podcast episode right there. Art two coming at you. Oh, I love it. And what would be the? What is the best advice that someone gave you?
Speaker 1:Still, I mentioned earlier actually in this conversation about that the time is playing, the slower you'll grow and I think I have built a whole you know the past five years off of that advice because it sounds so innocuous to at first you think that's nice, but like it really really really is true and I have seen that manifest in my life so so often.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true. What are some books that were pretty transformative for your life?
Speaker 1:I was actually just writing about this today because I got to interview Mike Michalowicz. I don't know if you've read any of his books, but he wrote Prophet First and Clockwork, which is the book that to me was the most transformative I've heard of Clockwork.
Speaker 2:I haven't read it.
Speaker 1:Clockwork was the first thing that made me realize wait a minute, oh, I can build this business to run without me there. That seems impossible. And so I read that eight years ago. And one of the goals of Clockwork is to like take a vacation or take a sabbatical. And, as you know, I took a sabbatical over the summer. And so it was like eight years later and I think back to this all started when I first read clockwork.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's amazing. Are there any other books that really resonated with you and just in your process?
Speaker 1:I am a big fan of Untamed. I know I've mentioned Glennon Doyle a couple of times, because I can't go like more than a couple hours without talking about Glennon Doyle. I just feel so inspired by what she's created for women, and just the book itself with Untamed was such a helpful. I read it when I was pregnant and during the pandemic, like as everything was falling apart, and it helped me understand what kind of mother I wanted to be when it comes to being a model and a mentor and not a martyr for motherhood.
Speaker 2:That's beautiful. Well, Lindsay, is there anything that you'd want to pass on to our listeners that we haven't touched on or haven't asked you?
Speaker 1:I think you have done a great job of asking questions. I can't think of anything else that we might be missing, other than I am around. I'm super approachable, like, like, feel free to reach out if you have follow-up questions. I absolutely have loved this journey of building a business and scaling it, and what it means to have a company that's like blown well beyond my wildest dreams has been really cool too. Yeah, I mean you made the fortune list and Forbes list.
Speaker 2:That's incredible.
Speaker 1:We were number 255 on the inc 5000 list this year like one of the 300 fastest growing companies in the states. That is you, I mean, like I dreamt that maybe we would be. You know, I don't know. I never even thought we could land on the list, much less making the top 300 it just like we're making payroll.
Speaker 1:Yay, yes, bingo, yeah, I'm just happy that we have a profit um no, I am so jazzed by it but also the identity shift of having to realize like, oh no, I have to dream new dreams and bigger dreams. That was where Bob came in, that was helpful. So yeah, I'm around.
Speaker 2:I'm like. Bob is who I want to be when I grow up.
Speaker 1:He lays a good foundation for all of us.
Speaker 2:Seriously Well. Thank you so much. Tell us where people can find you. What's the best place to find you?
Speaker 1:Yes, I am most active right now on my Substack, which is just lindsayeperlysubstackcom. I'm sure you can see how to spell my name and the show notes and all that, but I just love writing on that and kind of sharing little blips. And that marries a lot of my business stuff with the who Made you the Boss podcast and all that fun stuff. So just feel free to connect over there.
Speaker 2:Okay, awesome, Lindsay. Well, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it. It's been such a pleasure. Thanks, Becca. Thank you for listening to the Ones who Dare podcast. It is an honor to share these encouraging stories with you. If you enjoy the show, I would love for you to tell your friends. Leave us a reviewer rating and subscribe to wherever you listen to podcasts, because this helps others discover the show. You can find me on my website, SvekaPapacom.