THE ONES WHO DARED
THE ONES WHO DARED PODCAST Elevating stories of courage. You can listen to some of the most interesting stories of courage, powerful life lessons, and aha moments. Featuring interviews with leaders, pioneers and people who have done hard things. I hope these stories help pave the path for you to live out your courageous life.
THE ONES WHO DARED
From Oxford Scholar to Historical Detective: Dr. Ulrich Morgenroth Impactful Archival Research
Finally, I interviewed the man behind the years of highly anticipated emails. Every time I got an email from Dr. Ulrich Morgenroth, I had one more puzzle piece to my grandmother's story, one more confirmation that what she said in her interviews and letter was authentic.
Dr. Ulrich Morgenroth is an archivist from Velbert, where my grandmother was on Ostarbieter, meaning Eastern European Worker. Many don't know about this period of history (nor did I) until I started researching. Over 3-5.5 million Eastern European workers were taken from Nazi-occupied territories for forced labor in Germany during WW2; my grandmother was one of them when she was sixteen years old.
It was only a few months after Dr. Ulrich Morgenroth got this job that I sent him my first inquiry. Every time I wrote, I was missing pieces of the story, so I would send Dr. Ulrich Morgenroth another email, hoping he would not be annoyed by my consistent requests for more information.
He was gracious to dig further and provide me with any information he had.
Dr. Ulrich Morgenroth Studied archaeology at Oxford University and worked in a museum for 20 years. Now, he runs the archive of the city of Velbert, Germany.
Dr. Ulrich Morgenroth shares his unique detective-like approach to historical research, offering a vivid glimpse into the process of piecing together the lives of those who endured harrowing conditions during the Nazi regime.
We explore the topic of "Ostarbeiter," forced laborers from Nazi occupied territories, as Dr. Ulrich details their unimaginable hardships—overcrowded barracks, meager wages, and the chilling mark of "OST" for identification. The conversation goes beyond mere historical facts, shedding light on the emotional and ethical complexities of working with such sensitive data.
Dr. Ulrich emphasizes the importance of acknowledging historical injustices and shares moving anecdotes. This episode is not just about history; it is a call to appreciate the freedoms we have today and to remain vigilant in safeguarding our values. Don't miss this episode that underscores the power of archives, the importance of remembrance, and the profound emotional impact of uncovering personal historical truths.
I am personally grateful to have worked with Dr. Ulrich Morgenroth, and his role in helping me uncover my family history.
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Hey friends, welcome to the Ones who Dared podcast, where stories of courage are elevated. I'm your host, vekka, and every other week you'll hear interviews from inspiring people. My hope is that you will leave encouraged. I'm so glad you're here, ulrich. Morgan Ruth, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's really a delight to have you on here today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, very nice having you. It's an honor really because we have been in touch, writing emails, for quite a long time before, so it's really nice to sort of see you in person and talk to you.
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely, and for the listeners, could you pronounce your last name, the correct German way? Okay?
Speaker 2:German way. My name is Ulrich Morgenroth.
Speaker 1:Okay, yes and yes.
Speaker 1:So for those of listeners who don't know, I've been in touch with Dr Ulrich for several years.
Speaker 1:We've been emailing back and forth. I've actually reached out to the archives in Germany regarding the book and the story of my grandmother and just trying to get some proof. As my editor said, you know, for the readers to know that this really happened, we need to get some documents. We need to get some proof that you know this isn't a story you're making up or she made up. So let's get some proof that you know this isn't a story you're making up or she made up. So let's get some evidence to back the history of what you're talking about. And so when I email the archives, they put me in touch with you and we've been emailing back and forth. And recently you just released a book in German regarding the period of history that touches part of my grandmother's life. So before we get into that and the work that you do, dr Ulrich, could you tell people about a little bit about yourself, who you are, your background and how you got into this work?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd love to. I'm 55 years old, married, have a great daughter, which I really am very proud of. We just got a golden retriever puppy dog a couple of days ago, which keeps us very busy. I studied archaeology and history at the University of Oxford and did my doctorate there, which I'm very proud of, which was a very proud of and which was a very, very meaningful time in my life. And after that I worked in a museum for around 20 years which specializes in locks and security technology, because the part of Germany where I live and where your grandmother was working is a center for the production of hardware and logs.
Speaker 2:And then I changed jobs and, maybe half a year before we got in touch, took over the archive and at the point didn't know too much about the forced labor either, because that's not a topic which is.
Speaker 2:And I basically got to the point because there were inquiries coming in, like yours, and many people think that an archive is something sort of not very personal and dry and that the work of an archivist isn't particularly interesting, a bit old-fashioned and boring. But what I found out is that you get very, very close to the actual life of individual people and I found that extremely interesting and I thought it was really great how much you can find out about a person. So, as we did, as we sort of find out where they live, what they did and all these things and I have worked on quite a number of inquiries and it's really really nice because you see all these different life stories and stories about cruelty, about crimes, but also about kindness and everything. So that that really started to grip me that you you sort of get to get a glimpse into the life of people in the past yeah, it's interesting because when I first started contacting you, I didn't you know.
Speaker 1:It's like you, you don't know the face behind the email, right and and so at the same time, I'm like I wonder if Ulrich is getting really annoyed that I'm emailing him, cause it's like wait, I need this other detail, cause I'm writing a book. You know, as I'm writing these details and trying to put the pieces of the puzzle myself, I am like wait, but what did this look like and what was this like? And I need that information. So, look like, and what was this like? And I need that information. So every so often I'd email you again and I'm like, oh my gosh, ulrich is probably like gosh, this girl is just so annoying?
Speaker 2:no, not at all, just just the opposite, because it's really it's like detective work and you follow a trail and, um, it's really thrilling if you find out something. I actually was looking forward to your email. So this, um, because I also found it fascinating what you can actually find out, that you can basically find a photograph of the actual kind of machine your grandmother worked with, for example, to identify the place exactly where she lived, and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:Before we dig in in further. What we are talking about is a period of history in Germany called Osterbeiter, which is the forced labor workers which were eastern Europeans. I think it's estimated between 3 to 5.5 million of eastern European workers who were taken from eastern Europe and taken into Germany for forced labor, and you can correct me in any of this, but could you just give the reader or the listener an idea of what was going on in history before Hitler came to power with Germany, right?
Speaker 2:So before Hitler came to power, what transpired to get from this point to the point of we have people in barracks who are being forced for labor, and so just kind of giving them a history lesson there okay, yeah, so it basically starts off with the first world war, 1914 to 1918, which the germans basically started and lost, and then a peace treaty was reached and signed at the Palace of Versailles near Paris, and it was very, very restrictive. So they had to pay huge reparations, they had to give up quite a lot of their territory, and yet all these people coming back from the war were, for one thing, very disappointed, very frustrated, and then armed and trained in using their weapons. And then you have a period where the first German Republic was founded but which was basically accompanied by great civil unrest because there were enormous fights between right-wing groups and communist left-wing militias and stuff. Then there was a great inflation in 1923, when the German 50 to 3 billion, and basically this whole situation opened up the possibility for Hitler and the Nazis to basically instrumentalize the functions of the democracy, to take over power. And I find it very important that they basically didn't force anyone.
Speaker 2:This was not a revolution, but they basically took power with the consent of a lot of people and that started this whole development, basically with the abolishment of democracy to start with, with abolition of trade unions and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:Then Holocaust, of course, persecution of the Jews, but not the Jews, but also political opponents, because all the social democrats, members of the Labour Party, were tried and convicted and went into concentration camps and later became forced labourers as well. This is an interesting point which many people don't know and ended up starting the war by attacking France and attacking Poland, and because most of the men were sent to the front, there was a deficiency of workers within the German Reich, and since they had by then conquered a number of territories to start with, for example, belgium, netherlands and France, and the first laborers basically came from these countries, even from Norway and from Denmark, and when they started to attack the Soviet Union, they began to force people there in large numbers, as you said, to basically come into Germany and work there under very, very harsh and very poor and very, very bad conditions, and that's basically the background.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it seems like the political climate or the cultural climate was very ripe for someone to come save them, give new policies.
Speaker 2:That looked hopeful yeah for someone to come save them, give new policies. That looked hopeful, yeah, and because there were fights in the streets of Berlin, for example, where left-wingers would attack right-wingers. There was a large amount of organized crime. For example, there's a TV series on at the moment, which I think you can watch in the States as well, which is called Babylon Berlin, which basically set in the 1920s and which describes very, very nicely how this sort of very harsh environment is. You have all these people being frustrated, coming back from the war, having sacrificed so much, and looking for a strong leader now to what they thought put things right in their sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so before you got into archive work though, you were an archaeologist, right. So what made you make the shift?
Speaker 2:I basically sort of it's. I basically sort of. I worked in the museum and the museums and the archives are part of the county administration and since the then archivist went into retirement and I had worked at the museum for 20 years, I thought it would be a good idea to try something fresh, try something new, and that basically made me move into the archive. I've always enjoyed, as I said, sort of following the trail of documents and finding out things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and what's been the most surprising part of your job, as you've been an archivist?
Speaker 2:How much you can actually find out the detail, and that's particularly true for the time we are talking about them. They just didn't commit horrible crimes, but they documented them, so there's a whole lot of bureaucracy going with it. So if we go into the question later, you will find out, and that's really incredible because you can see that they had no idea that they were doing something wrong, but they were absolutely convinced that they were right in doing this to other people. That's really incredible.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is pretty incredible. So you essentially do the archives for your town called Welbert Germany. Yeah, that's right, so it's very local.
Speaker 2:There's a federal archive in Aarhusen, which you might know, which comes from the central office that was invented to look for displaced people. After the war. They basically moved the archives to Aarhus and it's mostly so that people who want to find out about victims of the Nazi period go there first and from there they are sort of redirected to the local period, go there first and from there they are sort of redirected to the local archives which can answer the questions in much more details.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like you have for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I have for you, like I have for a number of other people, and this is always very gratifying because the response you get from the people is very positive, because very often you give them information who helps them to find out about their past and basically helps to find out what they really are. That's very good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, for me too, it's like when I first started contacting I don't you know, not knowing who's behind there or even what your views are or how you're thinking. It's like you know, not knowing who's behind there or even what your views are or how you're thinking. It's like you know, just trying to understand, like, okay, I'm getting this piece of the puzzle, that's this part of my grandmother's story right which her life was like. But at the same time, it's like I don't know how you view all of this, you know, and where you stand with all of this. So it's, it's almost like somewhat sensitive, you know, or like in the beginning I think I was very hesitant of like asking something or, um, I don't, I don't know. Do you understand what I'm saying with this?
Speaker 2:uh, we have something which is called as a normal, so basically means remembrance and that's something I think that worked very well, at least sort of my generation, that you know a lot about the crimes that have been committed. I don't feel guilty because I have not been inverted Personally. My father was a small boy when the war ended and he suffered a lot because they were living in the part of Germany which was then conquered by the Red Army. But I feel a sense of responsibility and I think it's my responsibility to to know about it and to help other people to find out about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's beautiful. And I've connected with your daughter and she was doing a piece in her school, her dissertation, and she chose to write about portions of it of using my grandmother's story, which was so beautiful, it was such a full circle. You know, it's like you and I have been in contact for years and you've been giving me information and I've also then let you know, like you asked me. Well, can you tell me what happened to her once you left Germany? And then I told you that, and it was not that great either, unfortunately. But for her to share that, this generation, her generation, sharing that in schools like, hey, this is the history, this is what happened.
Speaker 1:And I think for us too, when we know the history, we're less likely to repeat it. Right, but when we deny it, when we say the Holocaust could have never happened, no one would ever do this, what do you say to someone who denies the reality of what happened? Because there is groups of people who said the Holocaust never happened, they would say Osterbeiter's never happened either, because it's similar. Holocaust denial in Germany is a criminal offense. Really, it is Holocaust never happened.
Speaker 2:They would say Osterbeiter has never happened either, because it's similar Holocaust denial in Germany is a criminal offense.
Speaker 1:Really.
Speaker 2:It is. It is If you do that you are tried. There have been cases recently where sort of very old people in their 90s who were tried for working at concentration camps and stuff and all the descendants of some of the Nazi officials who deny the Holocaust publicly, that's a criminal offence. You can go to jail.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:You are not allowed to display swastikas and stuff like that, so it's completely forbidden as well. So you can sort of, if you have a, let's say, exhibition which is about the time you can, can sort of, if you have a, let's say, exhibition which is about the time you can do that to portray them as or show them as a symbol.
Speaker 1:It's, it's criminal offense wow, and that's, that's incredible. I think I love what you said in that I don't feel guilty because I didn't do anything wrong, you know. But it's my responsibility to essentially share the history, and I think that's beautiful, because just because you carry the nationality of the people or the roots that did do something doesn't make you guilty, and I love that, that perspective. I think we can all learn something from history of what was done differently, and for me that's part of why I decided to make my book public.
Speaker 1:Originally, when I was gathering these puzzle pieces, even in the beginning with you, I never intended for it to be a piece of work for the public. I just thought I was doing this for my family, because my mom passed away and then her mom was already passed away. So for me it was like gathering all these puzzle pieces so we keep the story within the family. But then the more that I dug and the more that I shared, the more people wanted to know more and more, and so it became this thing where it's like actually, I think I want to share this with the world because we're touching on two pieces of history here in her story that like not only by the Nazis, but also her own country that did her wrong. And it's not saying this country's bad and this country's bad. It's saying these political institutions were very wronged her and this is what happened. And we're bringing that to the light and we can learn a lot from that too.
Speaker 2:I think my generation is probably the last one one which is still directly influenced by the war, because both of my parents my mother was born in 1940. So when the war ended she was five years old and she had to go to the air raid shelters as a small child. As I said, my father comes from Eastern Prussia, which is the region which is today the russian ex-glazed kaliningrad, and they were basically expelled and they had to flee and they were losing basically all their belongings and their home and stuff and um I I believe they were still very traumatized by that, basically sort of partly gave still gave that to their children and I think my daughter's generation is probably the first one who's not directly influenced by it anymore.
Speaker 1:Wow, yeah, that's interesting. So let 's dive into. Um Osterbeiter, the whole subject. Um, if you can break it down for listeners, most people may not have ever heard that, right? So what is it? How did it? Just the ins and outs of it. I'd love for you to give us a lesson here okay, I try that.
Speaker 2:Um, as I said so, there was a great shortage of labor because, uh, during the war, because most uh able-bodied men were sent to be killed at the front, and uh, then the not the naz, but the Germans because it's always sort of always talking about Nazis as denying responsibility began to sort of forcefully recruit laborers in all of the occupied territories, to start with, as I said, in countries like the Netherlands or Belgium, and then the occupied part of France, and then later on, when they moved into the Soviet Union, in what today is Ukraine and Russia, basically started to get really, really serious in 1942 when they basically issued an order that all young men and women born between 1922 and 1925 would have to go to Germany, if they wanted to or not. So they were forcefully recruited and basically packed into carriages, railway carriages, sort of cattle carriages, stuff like that and then transported to the border into a sort of first camp and from there distributed to several camps spread all over Germany, because they were forced to work in all parts of society. What people still might know is that they worked in the big factories. We have a town nearby called Essen where Krupp, the great steelworks, was located, which was basically the greatest arms factory in Germany, and they had around 8,000 people working there just in that one company. But that's not all. They worked in the butcher shop, they worked in the bakery. People forced them to work as sort of housemates, personal servants, basically in all parts of society. That makes it so interesting that so few people know about it, because it was basically the most obvious crime committed during the war. The excuse of my grandmother for the Holocaust always said that she didn't notice this because she said she had no Jewish acquaintances and she didn't realize the whole thing was happening. But this was in view of everyone.
Speaker 2:As I said, they came to this distribution camps and then were from there transported in to the various towns where people were already waiting and the whole thing, if you read the description, sounds like a slave market that basically everybody wanted some workers there, went there and tried to get as many as they could. And then it was particularly malicious because officially they had working contracts and officially they were paid very low wages. But then the wages were kept in because people were saying for accommodation and food they would have to keep that and if there was something left they would be paid in money only valid in the camps where they lived, but because you couldn't buy anything there, and most of them if they were not living individually. So if you have had someone sort of working with a family, so they might live there. I have one case which I might talk about later, which was a young Russian woman who worked at a country pub, for example, so they would live with families If they worked on the farms.
Speaker 2:They lived on the farms, but usually there were large camps where they were deterred and then you would have a barrack which was sort of 20 meters in length and 5 meters in width, where around 60 people would be living, so basically crammed together.
Speaker 2:And we all know that because of the bureaucracy, because there were lists there about their payment they got how much was basically distracted from the wages, and that they basically had got one sack of straw, one blanket, one cushion, one plate, one set of clothing, regardless of how long they were working there, and this clothing was, as you said, marked with signs. With workers from Poland or the Soviet Union. They had this OST for Ost, which is East, on their clothing or uniforms, or whatever you might call it. And then there's this other point that shows you how obvious it must have been. In Serbuk, the larger camp, we had had 1,200 people living there and they must have gone to work every morning in large groups of people, sort of walking down the road to go to the factories. Wherever making it, there was no chance that people would not realize what had happened.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's an interesting point too that you're saying like there's no way you couldn't have observed that something is different than the normal whereabouts. Um, and and my grandmother does talk about that she stayed, uh, at this place but they had to walk to the factory and they would walk to unload at the train station, to unload equipment and metal equipment and things like that. So there was uh, but at the same time she said they were strictly really prohibited to go outside their barracks when, um, you know, when, they were in not working on the factory yeah, they were not allowed to have relations and in the case where they had relations and a child was born, the children were taken from the parents immediately.
Speaker 2:And then it got even more bizarre because they had this race theory. At the time they were sort of aiming for the master race and they had this idea. If you took measurements of the skull and stuff you could identify if people more or less belonged to the masteries or not. And if they did, they were put into certain homes to be educated, to later on go to the SS and stuff. So if they didn't, they basically would go to the kind of children's homes where they pretty much were starved to death.
Speaker 1:Wow, wow, wow. That's crazy. What is something as you were learning this? Can you share a story or two of your discovery to being in the archives?
Speaker 2:Yes, One thing is, for example, to start with the bad stuff documentation of abuse and cruelty.
Speaker 2:I told you earlier that the sort of left-wing and trade union people, the communists and social democrats, were tried.
Speaker 2:There were big trials nearby, in 34 and 35, where they tried and then very often were sent to concentration camps to start with and they were put into forced labor. And I have a whole lot of documents written down for the military authorities just after liberation, that sort of basically put up a list accusing the owners or the leaders or people working in the different factories of the crimes they committed, how they basically beat people, how they sort of made them wet with hoses and forced them to stand outside in the winter or starve them and stuff about sexual abuse and stuff like that. And it's really that was, and it's so incredible because that we are not or Germany is not anywhere in the world, but it's basically in the center of Europe and it always was a very educated country and stuff, and that you have sort of normal people turning into this kind of monster. It's really really puzzling and makes you think that you have to be very, very careful to make sure something like that doesn't happen again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it almost reminds me of this experiment I forget what it was called. I don't know if you heard. There was in the jail where they put people to be uncharged and then they created a cast and how quickly it changed the dynamic and how quickly the people who were put in power became abusive and treated people that were their peers. So I think it is. It is a very interesting thing and I I am very curious about sociology and psychology and what makes us tick and the why behind things. So to me it's it's it's puzzling I don't want to say fascinating, because that's almost a positive word. Puzzling is more uh, it's just it's unbelievable that it can happen that fast and I don't know how I would affect it.
Speaker 2:So it's, it's. It's something a bit disconcerting, because I work with a lot of people who do research into the showa, holocaust and stuff like that and they always, uh, have the feeling themselves that they would have been freedom fighters and would have been dissidents and against everything. I'm not so sure about myself, so I couldn't tell you honestly which side I would have been at the time, not having the democratic education that I had. But the whole thing, the whole consequence of that, is that I'm so happy to live in a democracy and I'm very grateful to the Allies after the war that they decided not to sort of punish Germany but to help the country to become a liberal democracy, which so far works pretty well, and my daughter is politically rather active and I really enjoy basically sort of acknowledging what kind of a tragedy that is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I love that you just said.
Speaker 1:I think it's honest for you to say you know, I don't know what I'd be, because, given the circumstances, easy to be on this side and said, well, you know, of course you'd do this, but you don't know.
Speaker 1:It's like being part of the system and you're, for example, you're a young boy and you're forced to be in the SS army and you, you, you go into it, you don't want to harm people but before you know it, this is what you're kind of told to do, and if you don't do it there's consequences for that. So there's a lot on the line if you don't follow orders right by the authority. And so I think it is a very difficult thing and we can sit here and judge people and even examining my grandmother's story when she was being tortured, for example, by her own country, because she had certain values and beliefs that was not in line with the communists and Stalin order and she continued to stay true to her beliefs, I don't know, if I was in her shoes, if I would say, yeah, I'm going to stay true to my beliefs. I want to say, yeah, I would.
Speaker 2:But if you don't live that experience, you don't know for sure and one other thing is quite interesting because it's how the current political situation basically punishes the ostabite again, because but I at some point I, I, um was wondering where the people were buried which actually died while they were working in Selbert and went to this really lovely cemetery and Father Smolak went there and came to a certain section which was basically for the Russian graves, which was very bad and not very nice really, and got a bit angry about that.
Speaker 2:And then I consulted the cemetery authorities colleagues of mine, so I can do that easy and said okay, listen to us, the story is we had a very nice design, there was a very nice setup, and then we had this terrible storm about six, seven years ago and that basically destroyed all the designs there.
Speaker 2:But since the cemetery is a war cemetery, strictly speaking Russian territory, and they had been communicating with the Russian embassy and they had plans for really very nicely redesigning that with a lot of information about what happened and showing people what that was like, and then the war with Ukraine started and basically then the communication with the Russian embassy ceased, so it basically stays as it is. It's just one stela there where, in Russian, you have mentioning that there are 122 graves from people of the Soviet Union who died during the Nazi dictatorship. But then the other thing is it can't be just them, because, if you, we had 12,000 forced laborers in Selbert and I estimate that there must be a mortality rate of 10 to 20 percent under the conditions including people getting killed by um, air raids and stuff, and then I wonder where the others were. That was something I haven't managed to find out so far, but it's something I try to follow up and look for for the death certificates and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it is interesting because, uh, like you said, uh, the people who were osterbeiters a lot of them that went um back to the soviet union, for example, were severely ostracized for being in germany, even though it was by force. So I find that it's like they had the injustice and the cruelty of injustice done twice in one lifetime, which is unimaginable. And for me. You know, I'm connected to my grandmother's story because it's someone that I know, that I met, had a relationship with. But there's so many other people and I remember at one point I went, I was sharing her story in a school in here in America and I called her my aunt, her daughter, my grandmother's daughter, and I said I just shared the school and I just essentially shared with her like this is how curious the students were and just some of the conversations.
Speaker 1:I thought that this was going to be a positive thing for me to share with her daughter because it's like her grandmother's life is encouraging people, is teaching them history, right. And she said something to me that shocked me and she said you know, I don't think that grandma would want you to make her out to be a hero. And I'm like tell me more. I don't understand what you're saying. And she said well, the thing is is she's not the only one that this happened to and she didn't do anything significant. There's a lot of people that were just like her during that period, like she's somebody special or she's a hero because you know what she went through, because I think it's also the survival guilt right. There's a lot of people who've been through the same thing and to think about one life having to go through a concentration camp once is just atrocious. But to go through it twice by two different countries is unimaginable.
Speaker 2:It's, it's just like, but there were so many people, so many people yeah, the 20th century was so incredibly cruel if you don't not even looking to china, for example, or to start with, how stalin starved in the holodomor, basically starved Ukraine, and how the Soviet officials basically took all the food from the farmers in order to sell that to the Western country to buy weapons and stuff like that and they all starved. So incredible, and I always have the feeling that we are sitting on a very blessed island in the world and in history where we are able to basically live our lives, to choose what we do and don't have to be afraid of being shot down or anything in the next days. I'm very, very grateful for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that's particularly why my grandmother's story was very intriguing, because I felt like I didn't do anything to be in my shoes, right, I was just born in a different time, so I could have been that person, born, you know, and went through what she went through, but I'm born today. So that gives me a sense of responsibility to share the stories and to also live my life in a way that honors those sacrifices and says, hey, they sacrificed this, so I better live my life in a way that honors humanity, that honors people and that gives something to the world that is encouraging, inspiring. Yeah, so I feel like that's part of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's basically boils it down, and it's what I do. I reckon up to a point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Ulrich, what is something that you want the audience to know from your experience as an archivist and being researching this part of history?
Speaker 2:Yeah, as I said, to honour democracy and make sure that it's not endangered. And I don't know what your political standing is, but we in Germany have a sort of rather fearful look towards the United States and are very anxious to see how the next election is going to turn out. I hope that this is going to be a result that honors democracy and because you are the oldest democracy in the world, I always used to say this if anybody started about the American constitution piece, or old-fashioned, but it's been the best so far. It's never been overturned, there's never been a dictatorship. Might not have its flaws, but it's always developed with time. I'm hopeful that it's going to continue in a good way, particularly because I always thought it was, for both parties, a great connection between Germany and the United States, because you were, as I said, responsible for us having democracy yeah, yeah, exactly, and I totally agree with you on that.
Speaker 1:I think that we are so blessed to be, to have freedom of speech, to have freedom to do the things that we want to do, and I think, think there's a quote by I don't know if it's Thomas Jefferson that said that essentially, freedom, it's like within one generation that can change right. So I think that's why it's so important for us to understand history and to see the signs, to see how humanity can turn, and it's our responsibility to do our best to in here now, for, you know, essentially for democracy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but another thing sort of current politically is I grew up in the neighborhood of the Soviet Union sort of with the immediate threat of war until I was 18 years old, which was when the war came down and stuff like that, and it's very, very sad now that we have this threat coming from the East again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, for sure, but that was one connected with that completely different story. Yeah, yeah for sure. Forced labour in Felbert and she told opposite to what I told earlier, a story of kindness, that she was a family and they treated her very well, they fed her very well and when she decided to go home even gave us a sewing machine as a gift. And as soon as she arrived at the border, that was taken from her. She was sent straight to Siberia into a gulag and survived that and only on her deathbed told her children and her grandchildren what had happened, and I thought it was really, really great that they wanted to share that with me.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's incredible Because, from what I understand a lot of these people, there was so much shame about being an Osterbeiter and if people knew that, you knew that you were going to be ostracized for it, so it's like a secret that you want to keep it, that she kept that until her deathbed. That's something she carried her whole life like. Not being honest and saying this is this is my past, this is what happened to me, until it's like this is my last chance to tell them the truth, and I love that you get to be part of this, ulrich, like you get to help people to say, hey, this happened, it's real. For me, I think the first time that I received the registration papers was just mind blowing. I couldn't believe it. It was. It's like you know you're digging for these pieces. You don't know if, where, how they exist and then you get an email and it's like I'm looking at my grandmother's registration paper that said this is the day that she was taking, this is where she was, this is the town it even had the name that my grandmother goes by, and so all of that to someone on the other side of trying to discover these pieces, it's liberating and it gives me.
Speaker 1:For me, I'll share with you what I experienced. For me, I'll share with you what I experienced. I was very just elated that I got this information, but the more that I dig into it, I was also then mad. So I had to mix the feelings. You know where it was like I'm so happy that someone cares enough to say, hey, I'm honoring of what happened. Here's a document. I want you to have it because you have the right to have it. And at the same time, I was just mad of all the injustice that happened not just to my grandmother but all the other people. Right, and it's not the person sending the document, but it's part of the history that I was like I can't believe that this happened to her, but it also happened to so many people, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I was just like going through this thing you know where it was like I'm so excited, but now that I know it's really true, it makes me mad.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, same thing. Because we, as I said, sort of not anymore because they've died, but if I imagine that sort of when I was a child, that I was walking down the street, probably sort of 20, 30 percent, or however, of the people I was meeting or knowing had something to do with that in some respect, which for one thing, is sort of strange, but on the other thing, I think it's also strange that out of these situations we managed to build a democracy and that sort of, at least by the 1960s. People were committed to the democratic principles and there was no, no danger that I would go to go back to a sort of nazi regime yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1:Well, is there anything that you'd like the listener to know that I haven't asked you in regarding to your work, to this portion of history? No, I think I don't think.
Speaker 2:So it's very nice talking to you because it sort of gives my work more purpose. So it's really nice to do that by email. And that was something I really enjoyed when you agreed to talk to my daughter, for one thing, as I said, I was very proud that I was able to interest her in the topic and invest the work and on the other hand, that you sort of agreed, and then to see how meaningful the things can be that I'm doing Because basically, as I said, you sort of deal with these sort of piles of documents and shift your way through and sort of start with the address and then from the address find out the company she was working, find out if there are photographs of that, find them, then look on in which section of of the company grounds the barracks were located and stuff like that. So but it's particularly in in, in in in this part of my work. It's extremely gratifying to see that you can actually make a difference for people by my work.
Speaker 2:Another part of my work are these people who are doing sort of ancestry and hereditary and stuff like that of ancestry and hereditary and stuff like that, and I must say I very often find them very boring because they just want to see if they are descended from a king or queen or something like that.
Speaker 2:Just go back generation by generation to find is the research into not just Jewish death but Jewish life. And I have been very, very lucky because I basically signed the contract today to buy a letter by a rabbi from the largest neighboring town dated to 1840, where he describes how a Torah roll was initiated in the Jewish community in Selbert and we hardly knew anything about what Jewish life was like that early, because it was a very, very small group of people Basically met in a private home and he completely scrapped how that was given to the people what they were wearing, what they were eating, what they were talking about, what they were singing and so on. This is again sort of a glimpse into a past Before I had the feeling we would never be able to illuminate. I'm going to write something about it and that's again sort of for an archivist, something which makes a lot of difference.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you wrote a book or you were part of a book project. Can you tell us, the listener, a little bit more about that a book, or you were part of a?
Speaker 2:book project.
Speaker 1:Can you tell us, the listener, a little bit more about that?
Speaker 2:I didn't write the book but I initiated it because part of the whole process which you were a great part of, because you were one of the first people asking me to inquire into the topic. And then I realized that about 10 years ago a young woman from Felbert had written a dissertation on Zwangsarbeiter in Felbert to get a degree in social studies, but that was only there in sort of three or four copies and all the people who did research used it because it's incredibly detailed. She basically went through all the 12,000 registration paths we have for forced labourers and looked which nationalities, at what time they were there, what their age was, stuff like that, and basically presented that in great detail so you can find out exactly how, which company employed how many people as I told earlier how much food in terms of calories they were supposed to get, how big the place was where they lived. And then I said that has to be published. And then I organized funding by the local historic society which I'm a member of, and then some other people contributed a bit more to that.
Speaker 2:Some other people contributed a bit more to that. So we have a book now which is on a very profound level, basically describing how the whole thing went in Felbert and Felbert is a small place. We have sort of around, yeah, not that small sort of 80,000 people, but it's not a metropolis and to have something that detailed in a fairly small town is rather unusual. And I'm very grateful that it's not just me but there's a whole circle of people who are doing very good and very interested in research in local history and very proud that they managed to get something out in that quality.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and what is the book called? I know it's only available in German right now. Yeah, it's called.
Speaker 2:Zwangsarbeiter in Felbert, which is basically forced laborers in Felbert, wanted to keep that really simple sort of down to the point and if you can read any German it's very recommendable and it's particularly nice to have published it to give it to people who speak German and making priorities to give them a chance to find more about it.
Speaker 2:A very nice gentleman from the Netherlands, for example, is a very interesting story Again. His father was digging bunkers for one of the great foundry factories there After liberation. He met a young Russian woman, the one who worked in the pub and they basically fell in love and married and she went to the Netherlands with him. That was very interesting because we could find out about the pub. The building still exists and I could get him in touch with members of the family because they had a very close relationship and the family was even invited to the wedding of the daughter of the family who was pretty much in the same age as the Russian woman was at the time. But unfortunately and that again in the family the memory was lost and that was quite interesting because the gentleman from the Netherlands basically tell the family see, that's what happened and that's part of your own family history wow, that's remarkable.
Speaker 1:That really is. Is there any chance we can get that in English? How do we? How do we bring it to you guys?
Speaker 2:The only chance would be that I would have to translate it. That's a lot of work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is a lot of work. You'd have to get someone who you know understands the. It's different, I think, translating history.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and for one thing it's always. The problem is always money, because we have a fairly. We have a sort of 800, 900 copies in German so far and we are, I must say, fairly lucky to sell them because it's very local and it's a topic which is very specific. We're going to give some to the schools and stuff like that, but then again to publish it in English would be even more difficult for the publishers to even break even.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I mean books. It is, you know, a difficult market, right now especially, but I think the reason that I'm asking is because when I started doing the research, it was very hard to find any material on it, and the only um, the only book that I stumbled upon through reading other books was the um, the OST, which is this one that you said you know about and you could see I have all the markings here, things related to my research.
Speaker 2:I really like the podcast you did with the people who did that, yeah yeah, and it's by Granta.
Speaker 1:so the Memorial International and she was working very closely with Moscow kind of the archive and the museum there. Unfortunately that's been kind of I don't want to say shut down, but it's been on pause, at least from what I know, because I'm unable to get any information from them and that's unfortunate for me because there's half of the story of my grandmother that I can't have access, that you know, germany is doing a really great job of bringing the archives and sharing history, and then on the Russian side I can't like barely like it's.
Speaker 2:It's almost like, yeah, I can't, I can't, I can't get there Denying their responsibility, particularly if Putin now starts to mention Stalin as one of his heroes and role models. That's very, very creepy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So I'm just always grateful for people who bring this kind of stuff to the surface because it just helps, you know, in history, and that's why when I even go speak in schools, they're like what is this subject? We don't know anything about it. And you know, know, kids have a lot of questions and even um. So I've even been told that once this book is published, some of the schools want to put it in their libraries because it has historical context, even though you know it's. It's going to be weaved a little bit differently, but it touches on points in history that is rarely talked about. Yeah, I just so appreciate, so appreciate, dr Ulrich, for your work, what you do and how just I'm just really thankful for you and what you've been doing. In my life. It's always a pleasure.
Speaker 2:If you have any more questions, don't hesitate to ask. I really enjoy working with you and, as I said, it gives a meaning to the work I do. And, as I said, it gives a meaning to the work I do. So it's not just digging into papers and stuff, but that's sort of connecting with people and helping people to sort of basically find a place in the universe. That's very, very gratifying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2:Well, I usually wrap up my podcast by asking a few questions. Which is, what is the bravest thing you've ever done? Leaving Germany, going to England? Because at the time when I did that, studying abroad was not such a big thing yet, because now everybody's going everywhere. But sort of deciding to go to a different country and do academic work in another language which is not my native language, for one thing and I must say Oxford as a name can be a bit intimidating because it's such a big name- it turned out to be probably the best time of my life, because everybody was very, very friendly and met people from all over the world.
Speaker 2:I'm still in touch with a professor for English in Delhi and my godfather of my daughter is at Oxford University but comes from Mexico and stuff like that, so it's a very nice international perspective and there was a place where, in a secure environment, you could talk to people and, like another friend of mine, mine, who is now a professor at sacramento university, who comes from lebanon, could sit at the same table with people from israel talking quietly, constructively, about what their points of view are yeah, and that's beautiful.
Speaker 1:I love that so much when you have people from different backgrounds who can have open conversations and respectful conversations. That's beautiful. Did you know that one of the greatest regrets, when people ask people when they're older, like what do you regret not doing, it's not studying abroad. That's one of the big ones. So there you go. You won't have that regret.
Speaker 2:No, I don't, I don't, I don't it's really sort of uh, what was a time that really uh, made me who I am or helps us to put me in a certain direction, and then again it's really nice. My, my daughter, can share that as well, because she has her godfather there, her godfather there, and she travels back and forth and goes there and sees the environment and is with these sort of people and that's really nice as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what is the best advice that someone gave you?
Speaker 2:Basically to go there, basically to have the courage, because there was a time in my life where I got really frustrated with my situation and stuff. Being a historian or becoming a historian is nice, but if you want to earn a living, you have to do something which is out of the ordinary. And at the time I had a big crisis, sort of had started studying archaeology and history and was into the studies for a couple of years and then I realized if I want to get a job, that's going to be really, really hard and then sort of thought what I could do. And then one of my best friends had gone there a year before me and said do that, that's the right thing to do, and helped me a lot with filling in the forms and doing all the administrative stuff. We are still great friends and I'm going there in October because it's the 30th anniversary of my metric relation. Wow, I'm going to meet up with them and see them. I'm really excited because I haven't been to the UK for eight years. It's going to be really nice.
Speaker 1:You have a lot to celebrate. You just got this new document from a rabbi. Today, you're going on a trip. That's incredible. What are some books that were transformative for you in your life?
Speaker 2:I wouldn't say it's transformative, impactful in your life. I wouldn't say it's transformative, but impactful, yeah, sort of incredibly enjoyable. It's one by an American author which I think is not that known in the States. It's John Grissom and it's called Signal and Noise and I spent many, many years working on the history of technology and the history of industrial revolution, stuff like that, and that's a fantastic book which describes how the first transatlantic telegraph cable was laid and this whole situation in the 19th century, with technology coming up and being very, very frightening on the one hand and on the other hand, giving people hope in the future and stuff like that. It's incredible storytelling. And that's a story which I every now and then sort of listen to again as an audio rather than reading it, but which still sort of fascinates me.
Speaker 1:That's great. Well, thank you so much for your time. It's been such a pleasure to talk to you.
Speaker 2:Very nice to meet you at last in cyberspace.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to the Once who Dare podcast. It is an honor to share these encouraging stories with you. If you enjoy the show, I would love for you to tell your friends. Leave us a reviewer rating and subscribe to wherever you listen to podcasts, because this helps others discover the show. You can find me on my website, svetkapapacom. Thank you.