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THE ONES WHO DARED
How has the digital age reshaped the mental health of our youth? | Katie Anderson
In this engaging discussion with Katie Anderson, a dedicated youth pastor and humanitarian, we explore the significant impact of the digital age on the mental health of today's youth. The conversation sheds light on the rising rates of depression and anxiety among younger generations, exacerbated by the omnipresence of technology.
Key Points:
- Examination of the increase in depression and anxiety rates from 2010 to 2020, linked to the influence of technology.
- Katie's journey from church youth groups to impactful humanitarian work in Haiti, highlighting the importance of guidance during adolescence.
- Insights into how constant connectivity and smartphones have shaped the experiences of Gen Z.
- Discussion of universal youth struggles, including self-harm, addictions, and identity exploration.
- Emphasis on the need for safe spaces and open dialogues between parents and children to address modern challenges.
- Strategies for fostering problem-solving skills and promoting open communication to empower the next generation.
- Optimistic perspective on Gen Z's desire for meaningful offline connections amidst a digital landscape.
Katie is currently a youth pastor, bringing nearly 20 years of experience in various youth ministry roles. She holds an undergraduate degree in Human and Family Services, is a Certified Life Coach, and is pursuing a Master's Degree in Professional Counseling. Katie is deeply passionate about helping individuals embrace their true identities as intended by God. She is dedicated to supporting young people and families as they navigate the challenges of our digital era.
-Links-
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you saw a steady increase of depression and anxiety in young people. I think it's almost doubled, like from 2010 to 2020, those rates almost doubled, if not more than that. And so we see this trend of okay, well, what's different? In that generation, there was an introduction of having devices. In that generation, there was an introduction of having devices and where we would have, like you know, if I'm bored, my mom's not going to hit. When I was a kid, if I was bored, my mom wasn't going to hand me her cell phone in a restaurant. I had to use my imagination and I would play by myself for hours in my room.
Speaker 2:Hey friends, welcome to the Ones who Dared podcast, where stories of courage are elevated. I'm your host, becca, and every other week you'll hear interviews from inspiring people. My hope is that you will leave encouraged. I'm so glad you're here, katie Anderson. Welcome to the Once we Dare podcast. I'm so happy to have you.
Speaker 1:It is so good to be with you today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'll introduce Katie If you don't know Katie Anderson. Katie Anderson is a youth pastor. She's been doing different ministry roles. You served in Haiti during the earthquake. You've done lots of humanitarian work.
Speaker 2:Right after the earthquake and you're currently a certified life coach and you also have a. You're working on a master's degree in professional counseling right now and I'll also be curious to see what made you get into that. So, yeah, and the reason that I brought Katie on is we had a conversation about youth and just the different generational things that she's seeing that's changing with technology, with some of the behaviors, culturally, and I thought this would be a really interesting conversation to share with listeners on what are the changes she's seeing, be a really interesting conversation to share with the listeners on what are the changes you're seeing, what are some of the generational differences over the span of 20, some years that you've been working with different generations, and what are some advice that can be offered to the parents. And so, yeah, I'm just really excited for this conversation and I think the listeners are really going to benefit from this.
Speaker 1:Cool. Well, thank you so much for having me today. I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So let's start with what made you get into just serving the youth, like, why serving the youth? Why humanitarian work? And then why are you pursuing your master's degree in counseling?
Speaker 1:OK, yeah. So I mean, I grew up in the church and going to youth groups, so that was always like a really impactful part of my life. And then when I graduated from high school, it was kind of just a natural like okay, now I'm going to help with the youth. And so I mean, even at 18 years old, like thinking I knew everything a fresh adult, as we all think we do at that age I just started volunteering as a youth leader at my local church and then that just kind of became part of my life. So even when I wasn't working at the church, I was always still volunteering with youth and being part of that.
Speaker 1:And then in 2012, so that would have been two years post-earthquake in Haiti, because that happened in 2010. So, yeah, in 2012, I moved to Port-au-Prince and that was just like a crazy God story in my life. It wasn't something that I was ever dreaming of doing or thinking like I'm going to go overseas and serve and work and, um, it kind of honestly just fell into my lap. Um, they approached me and they said hey, we'd love for you to apply for this position. My initial response was no way, that's crazy. I'm not doing that, Thank you, but no, thank you. Um, but then, the more that it kind of just got put in front of me, I was thinking about it and I think I got to this point where I was like you know what, if I don't do this, I'm going to regret it.
Speaker 1:And I'm always going to wonder what if? And so, yeah, I moved to Haiti thinking, you know, I did like a six month commitment and said we'll see. You know what happens after. That Ended up staying for four and a half years working at an orphanage there. Something really unique about that orphanage was that by the time that I got there I would say more than I would say when I first got there maybe like 50% were teenagers and then 50% were younger, but then, obviously, like kids get older each year and so by the time that I left, more than half of the orphanage were young adults and teenagers. So we had done like a transitional living program. I was, like you know, 24-7 in that mode of like working with infants all the way up to young adults, helping them transition out of the house. And so, yeah, I did that.
Speaker 1:And then I ended up just really feeling called into going back to school. I did my undergrad in human and family services school. I did my undergrad in human and family services. I think just even growing up in the church and seeing family units and seeing good ones and bad ones in and out of the church to be honest, they're not all good in the church Like it's just real life. And then and then, seeing a lack of family unit through what I was doing in Haiti, I just became really passionate about studying that and learning more about that and how to like, help and equip people in being able to do it Well, even in those circumstances. Is that those circumstances that aren't always maybe traditional as far as like working with these orphanage kids who don't have, um a mom and a dad?
Speaker 1:in their lives but still creating a family environment for them, and so currently I'm working on my graduate degree and I'm getting a master's in professional counseling. It's actually a really cool story because it's something that I've always wanted to do, since I was a teenager, to be honest, and I myself went through counseling. I think it's such a valuable tool and it's something that really honestly changed the whole course of my life because of going through that and getting healed and healthy, and so it's something that I always knew that I wanted to do, but I was kind of just waiting for the right time.
Speaker 1:And so it feels a little surreal for me. I just started six weeks ago.
Speaker 1:I'm a fresh grad student, but I feel like I'm living my dream out right now which is so special and it's really cool actually to be able look back, because if I would have done it on my own timeline, which would have been in my 20s, I would have finished my undergrad, finished my master's and then I would have probably had a whole 20-year career in counseling by now. Yeah, but I would have been lacking so much vision Because of what I've experienced over those years of waiting for the right time. Because of what I've experienced over those years of waiting for the right time. There's this whole part of my life that I got to live that became foundational for why I want to do this even more. It's not just something I want to do, it's something that I want to. What I feel like I'm like led to do and call to do, to be able to help people, um, and so it's been really special.
Speaker 1:I'm like loving my classes and my teachers and everything that I'm learning. I don't dread doing my schoolwork. I'm actually I really enjoy doing it. It's a lot because I'm have a pretty demanding job, so I'm working full time and, um, I love my job, so I love getting to do both of those things. But there's definitely it's a lot. I mean, I'm working all day and then coming home and working all evening and um, but there's such a grace to do it when you're enjoying what you're doing. It changes everything yeah.
Speaker 2:I love doing both of those things and I love how you said that you have the. The experience now is giving you a different perspective on that, and so what are some of the whys? Because you mentioned, like you know why. Now what are some of the whys for you?
Speaker 1:yeah, I mean, I would say I would say I've always had this thing in me that wants to help, like I'm'm a helper, I love helping on Enneagram too, like I love to help people, and so that's kind of always been a part of just who I am. Even as a like a young child, I was always the one helping my friends, teenager like I'm like always holding a baby.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean. Like, I just love kids.
Speaker 1:I love helping people. I'm always like serving Um, and so I think what I would say is, these years have helped shape what I want to do because of what I've experienced to firsthand, you know, have conversations with teenage girls who are self-harming or addicted to porn or struggling with their sexual identity or any of those things. And I'm having these conversations in real time and and I I just want to be able and it's interesting too, because it's not just american kids, like the kids in haiti were struggling with all these things too, which taught me so much, because it's like we're just all human yeah, it's like universal yeah yeah, and so, um sure, our outside circumstances can look a lot different, but we are human and we have struggles.
Speaker 1:And so I think, being able to have those different things and I think, especially over the last 10 years or even closer to 15 years now, seeing the rise in anxiety in young people and I mean this with the utmost respect, because I think it just comes from what you don't know, what you don't know, and so sometimes, like the lack of awareness or ignorance, and again, not ignorance in a negative connotation, but just ignorance of not knowing from parents, because what we grew up with I'm a millennial and so what I grew up with is so different than what kids today are facing. And so I think having those conversations, seeing like front row seat to seeing what kids are actually students, teenagers, kids, I mean it's all those ages are going through right now kind of helped fuel that passion of wanting to help, because I see, even more so, the need of creating a safe place for people to be able to come and talk about those things, because it's stuff that's not always maybe the easiest to talk about with anybody or, you know, like there's shame that comes in that and condemnation and all those things that can create a spiral of isolation that keep you from saying the things that you want to talk about or need to talk about or work through. So I think a lot of that and then I would say also to just my work overseas in Haiti really taught me about the effects of trauma. Um, and I also I spent several years kind of in between coming home from Haiti and then starting working, um, at the church full-time.
Speaker 1:I was the director of a mental health program in Lancaster City and just seeing the effects of mental health and I mean I was working with people who have diagnoses from bipolar and major depressive border all the way to schizoaffective disorder and paranoid schizophrenia, and it was always so interesting going through their case files because trauma has such an effect on those things. And so I think for me, just being able to take all of those unique experiences that I feel like the Lord very strategically gave me through all of the different avenues that I've gotten to work in, and then apply that experience like, pull all that experience into a counseling session with me, that I'm not naive, I'm not unaware, but I can sit there like with compassion and not have a shocked face about some of the things that they might say, but then help them on their journey of discovering and their process of just walking through life and those things.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah, that's so good, yeah, yeah. And so, with that, I'd love for us to, or for you to, dig into what are some of the you mentioned. Like there's been a change in the last like, say, 15 years, and even you know we move that up a little further what are some of the generational changes that you're seeing and how is that impacting kids today? I mean, we know digital age, like you said, is so huge and I think that this generation is essentially well, is the generation that grew up with a device as soon as they're born really iPads in the restaurants, all the things so very different type of play or lack of play than kids prior to that, and we are seeing a rise of anxiety. I think this is known as what? The anxious generation. Yeah, but if you, I'm just curious for you to share with the listeners, like what you personally witnessed with working with kids in the past 20 years, like what are the changes? What do they look like, based generation by generation?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely so. As I mentioned, I'm a millennial and I grew up in the late 80s, early 90s of I mean I think I was five or six when we got a Nintendo, like the original Nintendo, yeah, and to have that childhood, I mean we were playing outside and then we'd get called in for dinner. You know, like those were our childhood memories and, um, I remember like my brother and I would ride our bikes down the street and play with all the neighborhood kids and like even a busy street, it was like safe to do that, neighborhood kids, and like even a busy street. It was like safe to do that. And so, um, I think that I was in middle school even like upwards of middle school when we got our first computer, like our first family computer, with the dial-up internet that sound is forever etched in my mind.
Speaker 1:If you're a millennial, you can hear that sound in your head right now. But you'd sit and wait for the internet to connect and you'd have to share the one computer with your whole family I mean this was most American, north American kids at this point and then you'd have like an hour to chat with your friends AOL, instant Messenger, whatever it was. I think I always used ICQ. I loved that one Messenger, whatever it was. I think I always used ICQ. I loved that one. But it wasn't an all-consuming thing in our lives because it wasn't with me all the time. It wasn't with me at school. I mean we had school computers, but even that our education wasn't centered around being on a screen or a computer.
Speaker 1:We had computer class for a couple hours a week.
Speaker 2:Right, it was like in one period.
Speaker 1:Learned how to type. That was awesome. I do remember that.
Speaker 2:It's just like arena. What's your typing speed Exactly?
Speaker 1:Oh, that was my favorite. We would do like the cover put a piece of paper over your fingers so you couldn't see the keyboard and like memorizing the keys and everything.
Speaker 1:But all that to say it was so different, so like millennial up, those were normal things for our childhood. Well then you have Gen Z, who I think right now so it's 2024, I think in this age range Gen Z would be I think it's 12, 12, right around 12 to 29 year olds would be classified as gen z and um, and then anything under that is gen alpha, um. And you look at their, their childhood. I mean, the first iphone came out in 2007, and so that really started changing things. And it's interesting because so the first iPhone came out in 2007,. Not everyone had it then, it wasn't like it is now. But in 2010 on, you saw a steady increase of depression and anxiety in young people. I think it's almost doubled, Like from 2010 to 2020, those rates almost doubled, if not more than that. And so we see this trend of okay, well, what's different?
Speaker 1:In that generation there was an introduction of having devices. In that generation, there was an introduction of having devices and where we would have, like, you know, if I'm bored, my mom's not going to hit. When I was a kid, when if I was bored, my mom, my mom, wasn't going to hand me her cell phone in a restaurant. I had to use my imagination and I would play by myself for hours in my room. My generation had tic-tac-toe, not TikTok, you know, like we just don't have. We didn't have those things. And so I see, in this generation, where some of the things I mean definitely it's rare that I would talk to someone who hasn't a teenager, even like middle school, I would say up to like young adult, right now it's rare to talk to someone who hasn't or isn't struggling with anxiety and depression. Wow, I also think that term has been thrown out like so much more than ever before. So I think it. I don't I wouldn't say that it's all diagnosed anxiety, but in there they would. They would describe as what they're feeling is anxious and struggling with anxiety and depression.
Speaker 1:I think that there is this element of belonging or longing to belong in this generation that is magnified intensely, where if I was at home as a teenager or like even a kid middle school or whatever playing, and a couple of my friends got together, I didn't know that I was missing out on anything but kids. Today they see their friends hanging out because they posted on their Insta stories or their Snapchat and they instantly have FOMO because. And then they go into the spiral of like, well, why wasn't I invited? Or like, why don't they like me? Or why, when in reality, it's okay to not be part of everything, it doesn't mean they don't like you, it doesn't mean any of those things. But I think for me, growing up, I didn't know it, so I was. I didn't know any different, I didn't know I was missing out on anything.
Speaker 1:So it wasn't affecting me, I just kept living my life.
Speaker 1:But now those fears can be paralyzing for kids and send them into some sort of spiral, and I think too, just that element of so they see like in real time what they're missing. And then there's that instant gratification. It's almost like this dopamine addiction of getting likes on their posts or their views on their stories or all of those things, or their views on their stories or all of those things, and it's created just this so unrealistic view of what real life is and it's had such a negative impact on their development. I mean you even look like you can go into any restaurant almost now and almost everybody will have their phone either on the table or in their hand. I've tried to get into the habit of turning it over at least so it's not like I mean we didn't have instant communication growing up, so like if I was out at a, a restaurant or something, I mean my parents would have had to, or whoever needed to get get a hold of me. They would have had to call the restaurant right, this is an emergency.
Speaker 2:Please call your parents, or something you know, or whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but now we're like getting these. So there's this like huge distraction. And I think another thing that I see is just even communication. Like I can have a conversation with a student in person Person, yeah, and they can't. It's really hard. I can have a conversation with a student in person, yeah, and it's really hard for them to look me in the eye and it's really minimal, it's not a lot of words, it's not whatever, and then they'll go home and send me pages of text messages saying everything, but that's how they're used to communicating. So there's this difference in that. I mean I've gotten as in my former role as as the director of this mental health program, I part of my job was to have like interview and hire my staff, and so I would get resumes in where people are writing LOL and stuff like that on their job applications, and I'm like what is going on right now, like in my generation?
Speaker 1:that's so unprofessional right, right, and it was an immediate like, no, like, yeah, I can't trust you to write a case note if you're gonna write lol and use emojis in your job application, right, because you can't do that in a case note. Um, so yeah, those are just like some examples, but I think at the same time because I don't do that in a case note so, yeah, those are just like some examples, but I think at the same time because I don't want this to all be negative I think Gen Z is one of the most creative generations that has ever existed and because of what they have access to it actually fuels that creativity. The internet is a beautiful thing it's not all bad, right, and I think that we have we have even just a responsibility for parents. They have a responsibility to not just squash it and keep their kids from it, but to help them do it safely and responsibly, in a way that cultivates that but doesn't rob them of, like, the experiences of being a kid and playing outside and using your imagination too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that about the part about belonging, and so how do with kids having that as something that they're missing in this generation? What are ways that adults, parents, youth leaders can steward that in the kids lives? Like, what are some things that they can do, or is it something that you encourage the kids to do? You know how to? How do we navigate to belong, the belonging aspect for them, like yeah, I mean, yeah, it is different. Like creating their sense of community is so different than our sense of community. Right, and the way that even we gather, because I see teenagers hanging out together and it could be like three girls and they're all on their cell phones while they're standing in a circle, or like laying in the bed together and just like they're hanging out, but they're totally not hanging out yes, they're just, they're in each other's presence, but they're absent from each other at the same time.
Speaker 1:Um, I mean one of the things that we do every year we take our kids, our youth group kids, on a beach trip. I mean it's like 150 people camping at the beach together and we do a no cell phone rule and which is pretty radical it is. It feels that way, we didn't know. The first year we did it. We were like, wow, we did not like we. Actually the kids were better with it than some of the parents. Wow, some of the parents were like, well, how am I gonna like?
Speaker 2:get over there. Well know where they are, get all of them.
Speaker 1:We're like we all, you have our phone number like we're all going to be there together.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Text me as a leader if you are concerned about your kid, and that's not everybody by any means, but it's interesting because I think we see the students come and there were definitely some that were like I don't know how I'm going to do this without my phone and some, I think, even considered not coming because they wouldn't be able to have their phone, which was really telling of like wow, this is like a big security. It's like some people it's like their security blanket to have their phone with them. If they feel awkward or uncomfortable, they can pick their phone up and look at it. Or if they feel like out of place, it literally is like a security blanket for so many people and not feel out of place. It literally is like a security blanket for so many people, and not just Gen Z either. But I think when I'm in an awkward social setting or if I feel like I don't know what to do right now, I'll just pick my phone up and scroll and then I'm like I don't feel out of place as much.
Speaker 1:But what we see with these students is almost like the first 24 hours is like a detox. But then and I say it, I've said it every year since we did no phones I say to our team I feel like I'm watching them come back to life, because they're hanging out with each other, they're playing cards with each other there, because they don't have any other options. I mean, there's not a TV in sight, we're camping, we're like sleeping in tents. We're like sleeping in tents, and so I think, um, that sense of belonging and there's like the most beautiful friendships come out of that time, where it's like you connect with people that you never might have connected with before, because you're in that space of like just actually seeing each other. Um, but I think young people just have this sense of they have this sense of longing. I mean, we all it's in our human nature we want to fit in, we want to belong.
Speaker 1:We want to have community. I think they feel it on such a deep level because it's lacking in so many areas for them. And they have you know, they have they just have their phones all the time they have. Um, they just have their phones all the time, um. And and I think there's this like part of the anxiety that comes in with that is that pressure to have a certain status or brand, if you will, for your social media. In that generation of like well, I'm not going to repost that because it looks dumb or I don't like the way that I look in that picture, or like. So I think that that sense of belonging is almost like this false sense of belonging because it's like well, I want to fit into a world that's not even actually real. It's filtered and it's the best version of everything you're getting. I mean like Instagram's, like the red carpet version of everybody you know, where it's like that's not their real life.
Speaker 1:And I think any generation feels that like I have I'm not personally, I don't have kids of my own, but like I can't tell you how many friends that I've talked to millennial moms who they struggle with Instagram because of the comparison, or like they're like, wow, like they're a perfect mom and I suck, you know. So it's not just Gen Z in up had a different development process where we had so many years without that even being existing in our lives or in our world, and for gen z and under, it's all they've ever known. So so they're developing differently. Um, and then just culturally, their world looks different.
Speaker 1:Or I would say, for millennials and up, I mean, if you look at like millennials, gen X, boomers, like those different generations, there hasn't been anything. I mean definitely changes from generation to generation, but I think there were a lot of pillars that remained the same and just started to look different, you know. But then this is probably like one of those biggest changes generational gaps that, like I can never know what it's like to grow up on a screen and they can never know what it's like to not grow up on a screen. You know what I mean, and so there is this like almost cultural gap in that.
Speaker 2:And with a culture gap too, is like how are you seeing, like people relating to each other, how are, how are those differences like understanding or yeah, do you mean from?
Speaker 1:generation to generation. Yeah, I would say, um, like, definitely a lack of. How would I explain that? Um, I would say there's definitely a lack of connection on some levels. Um and I see it in different ways Like, so I'll speak to like parents.
Speaker 1:I would say first and say there's, there's a lack of, and not across the board, but there's a lack of understanding because we just simply don't know what you don't know.
Speaker 1:But I see parents who are trying really, really hard and educating themselves and reading material and books and really trying to put things in place to help cultivate that for their kids, and some taking a stand saying you know what? No, I'm not going to put a smartphone in my kids' hands because their brains aren't developmentally there to be even able to handle it. I mean, you can't even rent a car until you're 25 because your frontal cortex hasn't finished developing yet and like that part of like, and we're handing a smartphone to these eight-year-olds. And so I think on that end, there's parents where it's like they have trouble connecting to that. And then I think there's kids who look at their parents and kids aren't thinking like well, you didn't have that when you were little, but they're thinking like, wow, okay, like they don't get me. I think there's a lot of that disconnect is just they don't get me.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think that can feel like really hard in for both sides. Um, but when you look at it from a millennial perspective to gen z, um that negative, the negative effects on their even just their developmental skills and what that, what the screen time does to their brains and their development in that way emotional, I like EQ is so different because of a lot of those different experiences that they haven't had. So I think that connection point is just so different. So it's going to take a lot of intentionality from generations above Gen Z millennial not just millennials but millennials and up, because grandparents are in different generations to actually start educating themselves and getting resources in front of them and then helping to cultivate a balanced life for their kids and great kids.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's so true what you said about kids feeling like they're not understood. I have two teenagers. We delayed getting phones altogether and I remember having these conversations with our sons when they're teenagers and they're like you don't understand what it's like to be the only kid in class who doesn't have a phone. Yeah, and I'm like, well, I sure as heck know that you're not ready for an iPhone, a smartphone, and so it was. You know, we try to delay that process as much as we could, but it's like they feel left out and they feel like I am totally missing out on connecting with the kids if I don't have a smartphone, if I'm not playing the video games that everybody else is playing, and you don't understand what it's like to be completely missing out and being, you know, the outcast. And it's like, well, I don't want my kids to be the outcast, you know you don't. But at the same time, I'm like, well, I'm not okay with you playing these games just because everybody else is exactly, or having this, because I know the negative things.
Speaker 2:So there there are options we found, like GabFone, and I'm sure you can speak into other phones. It's G-A-B-B that offers, and I think they just upgraded with apps that are like approved. Okay, cool, so you could still do like Duolingo. Like, our son is learning a second language and he really wants to have that access to that at any time, but he can't if he doesn't have a smartphone. So now they've added like maps and different things that you can use. That's so great, yeah.
Speaker 1:I recommend that phone to parents all the time yeah, I think it's.
Speaker 2:It's a great resource. And our oldest grew up with a gab phone and he doesn't want to get a smartphone now, which is interesting, because he's like yeah, I don't want to be addicted to my phone, it's just a phone. But it's not to say they don't play video games or don't have screen time in other places and areas. And by any means I'm not a perfect parent.
Speaker 1:I'm navigating this and trying to figure it out.
Speaker 2:And that's why I'm like OK, I want to have this conversation with Katie, because I think you have insight to offer from your experience on the other end of working with the teenagers. And it's like and what can we do as parents to navigate that? I think you're right in saying that a lot of us are really unaware. You know, I've had conversations with teenagers and they're like why would you think that these kids aren't watching porn? You know, like my kids would tell me that. Like, why would you think that these kids aren't watching porn? Right, you know, like my kids would tell me that, like, why would you think that, mom? And it's like well, because of this, and they're like you have no idea. And it's like yeah, ok, you're telling me that. So, like, let's talk about it. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:And I feel like, overall, like we've tried to be as open and talk about everything possible because I don't want any subject in our home or for when my kids talk to me to be off limits. Like I talk to them about things to a point where they're like mom, stop, you're such a weirdo. And I'm like it's okay that you think I'm a weirdo, because I want you to know, like if you ever like, I want this to be a road that's open, that you know, when you cross this road, you're like, oh, I already talked to mom about this so I can go back and if I have questions, or like, this is not a weird thing, even though it's like coming from mom, it's weird, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I totally agree with that. I think I mean you're not going to be with your kids 24-7, even if they're homeschooled. I've met with lots of homeschooled girls who struggle with porn. Wow, it's really not no one's exempt from it. It could be the earliest. And they're saying now there's a resource called Fight the New Drug, which they would say the new drug is pornography, and the average kid will see porn for the first time between the ages of 8 and 11. Wow 8 years old. I mean it's crazy and so much.
Speaker 1:Of it is puberty like Right, well and honestly, like we're even really careful as a youth ministry, like we let parents know that, like, hey, this is something that we talk about. But we also tell the kids, like if we're talking about these things and it's not like we're not up there every Wednesday being like, don't look at porn. I mean we believe that, don't look at porn. I mean we believe that don't look at it, but don't let that be part of your life. But if, if those topics come up, we'll say like hey, if you don't know what these words mean, that I'm saying don't Google it, talk to someone. Because it's actually shocking how many people I've actually talked to firsthand that didn't know what the word porn meant and Googled it, and that's how they got addicted to it.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:So, like you hear a young kid, I read an article recently of a story I think it was on, I think it was on Moral Revolution, another really great resource, where a boy, a younger boy, heard his teenage brother and his mom talking about this like pornography in the kitchen or something, and he was hiding in the hallway and heard it and didn't know what the word meant and he went and Googled it and that was how his addiction to pornography started.
Speaker 2:That's crazy.
Speaker 1:Like, and so I think it's so important I share those stories. Just to say that wasn't something that was part of my world ever. I've never struggled with pornography and I've never seen it before. It wasn't ever part of my life and it wasn't a thing that we ever talked about.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so I think, because it wasn't in our hands, we didn't have access to it, like to get pornography. As a kid in my generation, you'd have to like go to a store and get like dirty magazines or something.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean, or videos, or CDs and then you'd watch them like hide away somewhere you had to go somewhere to get it, the TV you'd put it in, you'd have to like barricade yourself. So no one else could see that you're doing this thing. But now you could be like in the bathroom, yep, and no one is going to bother you in the bathroom and you could be on your phone, yeah.
Speaker 1:Literally, or even just like, accidentally, like I mean, you know how YouTube works, like the algorithm can take you somewhere, or you see something and you accidentally click on it, or you intentionally click on it and then all of a sudden you're down this road. So I think one of the biggest things that I would say to parents is talk about this with your kids. Let your kids hear about this from you and you set the tone, not in a shameful or like, but like. Have the conversation, because if you don't, they will like hear me say this, they will hear about it from their friends, from a TV show, from, I mean, I.
Speaker 1:There's this documentary that was. It's a few years old now. It's called Childhood 2.0. And they just they talk about how there's like as a parent, okay, you wouldn't go to bed and leave your house like unlocked, all the doors open and your kid's still up, right, right, you would go. You lock up the house before bed. You close the doors. Like you put your kids to bed. I mean, as they get older it looks different, but you know who's coming in and out of your house, but when you send your kids to bed and they have their phone in their hands, you don't know who's coming in and out of their house. Quote-unquote yeah, like.
Speaker 1:And so I would say for parents, as annoying as it might be, or even like you sharing, like that's not, that's, that's not that's. That's not a rare thing that kids are saying like, oh, like nobody else has this, or like nobody else has to deal with this, or whatever. But I think, just to say that like it's okay, like if they're not all doing that it's okay because you're protecting your kid, um, and, and I think there are options like the gab phone, and I think I think it's important for you, I don't think there's like a set age of okay, once they're 16, they're good, they're like good, they're set, they can have a phone. I think you, as a parent, need to discern, like, what can your kid handle?
Speaker 1:yeah um, and then do that for them, and I mean they might not like you for a couple of years or they might be upset with you, but yeah, you're not gonna let your kid go play in traffic because everybody else is doing it or because they want to right, you're gonna teach them road safety and like, look both ways, like you, you have to do that. And so I also think it's just interesting, because the internet okay, so it like it came around like late 90s, um, and then I, like I said, the first iphone came out in 2007. That's not even. We haven't even seen a whole like generation grow up fully in this yet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I think one of the interesting things about it is that we're actually seeing in real time the data lived out yeah so I think that's something to just be aware of as a parent of like it's okay to set a tone, and it's okay, and it's actually parents I'll just tell you you're not the only one Like your kids are going to say that. You're not the only one. There are other parents Like I know many parents who are giving their kids gab phones and they're not letting them have unlimited screen time all the time.
Speaker 2:Or making them plug their phone downstairs, like in the kitchen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like no phones in the bedroom no phones in the bathroom, like those are important things, so important. I mean I've talked like this, isn't. I think one of the things that's interesting in this conversation is that, for all the things that I'm talking about like this isn't just stuff that I'm talking about like this isn't just stuff that I've heard of happening. This is actually things like in real life. I know people who are going through these things and I know people who have had these struggles and I've walked through this with families. I've walked through this with teenagers and middle schoolers, but I mean even just the amount of girls who get asked to send nude pictures. I mean it's insane.
Speaker 1:And there's, there's groups of guys in schools that have a drop box that they share all these pictures like it's a trophy, and I mean there's just the things that people are being faced with. And I think that's also the importance of parents educating themselves and helping them become aware, because, because you don't know what you don't know Right, but that's not a good enough reason to not know. You need to educate yourselves and you need to. The Childhood 2.0 documentary talks about. They call it the not my kid syndrome, because you're like, no, my kid will never deal with that.
Speaker 2:And I think that's what my kids were telling me. Like mom, don't think that just because. Exactly, and I'm like why are you telling me this? You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Yep, I mean like the most unsuspecting people, yeah, and I've had to. I think that's like something. In the beginning, when I started to learn about this, I was like hearing these like little girls basically tell me these things, and I'm like and and, because I've never I've never like even seen that stuff, I'm just like okay, like yeah, let's walk through this together. Yeah, it's like, and you can't have all your face, yeah exactly it's.
Speaker 2:It's um interesting that you say that, because several years ago, I feel like it's been like a decade ago almost. Yeah, it's about a decade ago, um, or I was serving in youth and I remember a girl was that I was mentoring, um, she was maybe like 15 or something and she was asking me what I think should she send a nude to her boyfriend? Because he was asking her and like I've never heard of this stuff before. This was 10 years ago, so this evolved so much since then. Yeah, but I'm thinking, are you like why would you do that? Like there were percussions of that. Like just think about, like so I tried it. Like again, don't have that shock face Right, like you know, hear it out. And so I just kind of was like well, what would happen if you guys break up, for example, like we're not even talking about like morals here, like right, let's just talk about logistics. And like talk about the practicality of like your picture is going to exist in the world nude somewhere and it could be shared anywhere with anyone.
Speaker 1:So you have no control of that, like how would you feel about that?
Speaker 2:yeah, and I think it was like, well, like, but he wants me to and like I feel pressure too, and it was just like it was. This whole conversation, yeah, that I never had, that I never experienced growing up, you know, because, again, there was no drop box of news and all of that the internet didn't even exist.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's like totally different, you know things may happen at a sleepover or something you know, or like boys will sneak in and different things like that, but this is like a whole next level. Yeah, you're so right, and I do think, as parents, like you said, we just have to be not naive and be okay with having these conversations and asking things about what's going on and trying to have just open dialogue about things that maybe you don't want to talk about. Yeah, and even I mean dialogue about things that maybe you don't want to talk about, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and even I mean starting at a young age, because if kids are seeing it as early as eight years old, you want, like, again, you have to discern that, but you want to. You just want to get ahead of the game. Yeah, and let your kids hear it from you and and then, because of that, be a place where they can come to. They're not going to feel the shame of saying, like mom, I accidentally clicked this and that that porn site came up, like I'm so sorry, I didn't know that was going to happen, or you know what I mean. Like having having that conversation and checking in, like ask your kids if they've ever seen that. Ask your kids if, like, like ask your teenage daughter, has a guy ever asked you to send nude pictures? Or start the conversation and say, if they say no, say okay, well, what would your response be if they did? And and workshop it. You know, work through the process of saying no to someone sending asking you to send nude pictures. The reality is too like you made a good point about, um, it just being out there on the internet, but the way that the internet works, now too, there's so many gross people out there, yeah, who are searching for young girls and young boys, they're grooming them and I mean it's disgusting. So, even just being aware and checking your kids' phones, I remember learning I mean, this was back in 2012, I think is when I learned this for the first time. There's like vault apps that exist that look like. If you're looking at your phone, it looks like a calculator app, but you click on it and then kids could hide all the apps that they weren't allowed to have. And parents, even who are checking their phones, might not have known about that they're seeing, you know, okay, like they don't have any of this, but there's two calculators. They're not going to think, oh, why do they have two calculators? But you know and then like. So even parents who think they're checking their phone, they're doing it just because of the lack of awareness or like keeping up with, like the data or the resources. And and and I know personally someone who went through that and their kid wasn't allowed to have Snapchat they were checking the phone, didn't see Snapchat. The Snapchat was in the Vault app and the kid accidentally left it open one day and the parents realized they were sending nude pictures to a stranger. Wow, like.
Speaker 1:So it's even the parents who are and this isn't to be like okay, be, be terrified of everything.
Speaker 1:It's no, take responsibility and be aware, like educate yourselves and and be bold to have those conversations with your kids, I mean, for in some cases there's there's crazy stories out there. There's like a murder, a murder trial happening in Indiana right now these two 13-year-old girls who got killed because they got catfished on Snapchat and lured out to this park and they killed them both and now they're like trying to figure out like it's like a whole murder trial in like Delphi, indiana or something like that. So I mean, I don't say those things to be like instill fear in you, but kind of because it's to be taken seriously. It's not just like something simple like the internet, like one bad day, like the wrong message at the right time, like you know what I mean, like you don't know what's going to happen and and not everything on the internet is what it appears to be Right. So like an account that looks like someone it might. We don't know who's behind that screen, right?
Speaker 2:There could be men who use female profile photos you know and try to connect and different things like that. On top of that, video games too. You have access to any users the you know those chats on those of that video games, too. You have access to any users. The you know those chats on those things that happen. You don't know who, what kind of strangers your kids are talking to, yeah. So yeah, I think there's so many different ways and the predator usually knows how to identify their prey oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1:They know exactly what they're doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so usually look for the isolated people with family, like broken family relationships and there's tell signs of how you know the things that they're posting and all the different stuff that you can identify kids who may be struggling, and those are easier to prey on than someone who has a secure relationship or secure attachment with their parents, where it's like they know they're loved and someone's not going to snatch them out in the streets. But that's not to say that not all can be vulnerable, because I think that if you know how to attract your prey as a predator, you may know their weak points by studying their social media account and being like, oh, this is what they're into. Maybe these kids would want some sort of a cool travel trip or something and like I'm setting something up or something crazy that is appealing to them and that's how you get it. I don't know.
Speaker 1:I'm just kind of well, even just the fact that kids are posting, like at hershey park or at the mall or Right their location. They're just saying here I am In live time too.
Speaker 2:Exactly, it'll be like I'm at this restaurant with my friend and they just order their meal. They're posting their location where they are. They have a public page. Yep and yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think those are the things where it's like okay, there's resources like Bark or Protect Young Eyes, or Fight the New Drug Moral Revolution, that documentary Childhood 2.0. Those are all great starting points to just start educating yourself. And a lot of those pages have resource pages that will point you to more resources. And there's articles that are coming out regularly of updated information, of even the iPhone. Like there's new apps coming out all the time that create a way for kids to block their parents from seeing stuff on their phones, like that new. One of the one of the most recent updates on the iphone came out with the journaling app and you can hide stuff in that app from so like again, like parents would look at the look and see not or not see things, but then there's stuff hidden within within the apps. So I think it's important just to have those conversations, have rules set up to protect your kids.
Speaker 1:I mean, I heard one time an example of like okay, take the car, for example. Okay, when they created the car, they weren't thinking, wow, I bet a lot of drunk drivers are going to get behind the wheel and kill a bunch of people, but how much has that happened since the car was created, right, they didn't they I mean, the first cars didn't have airbags, they didn't have, like, all the safety features that we have today. I mean, you have now, like it tells you if someone's coming on the other side of you, right In the newer cars. And so what they did each year was they're like okay, what can we do to make this safer? And then they did it. They created the newest model, they created the newest thing Because the internet is so new.
Speaker 1:We have to look at that and say like okay, like hopefully, when the internet came, they didn't come in with the plan of, like the predators that would come in and all of those things, but we're seeing the dangers of the internet now. And even as a parent, if you haven't had rules with your kids, it's OK. As you learn to say you know what. We're actually going to take a step back and I want to start implementing some new rules with this because I want to keep you safe. Yeah, and to go through that process and say, all right, we're going to say no, whatever. It would be Like no, or limited screen time, or no phone in your bedroom, or no phone in the bathroom, or like plug your phone in in the kitchen while you go to bed and you know that kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think those are great, great rules, because I think even just for sleep, like okay, let's talk, like not even, not even of just like the social effects and the mental effects and mental health, like all of those things, like just physically, it's not good for you to be on your phone, like just to have the light in your eyes right before you go to bed, like all of those things do something to you biologically too.
Speaker 2:Right. And also you could be staying up a lot later than you want to because you're sucked into a black hole of this or that you know thing, and then you're not getting enough sleep we know how important it is for health emotional, mental health and then you're going to school tired, you're not going to be able to be functioning the best and your grades are like all. It's so many effects.
Speaker 1:And again, it's not just for kids, it's for adults too. I even see parents who are on their phones all the time. Again, I think one of the major differences is developmentally. We got to a place developmentally before that was introduced in our lives. So there is a piece. But I mean I'll be the first to admit that I look at my phone way too much. Or I can open up Instagram and start looking at reels and then an hour later I'm like what did I just do with my life for the last hour? And they're funny.
Speaker 1:It's okay to enjoy it, but you know what I mean. There's this balance and I'll take times where I think, especially being in school right now, I have to be really disciplined with my time. But I'll just put my phone on airplane mode or do not disturb and just set it aside and and put it in another room where I'm like you know what, like or or the do not disturb feature you can add like different people that can bypass that and like their messages will still come through. So I'll put it on do not disturb and I'm like okay, like I have a, I think maybe five people that they're allowed through do not disturb, because it would be an emergency that I wouldn't want to miss if they needed, that you know so just those types of things where, even just for speaking to adults, now for yourselves, start evaluating like am I, am I taking away time with my kids because?
Speaker 1:I'm sitting on my phone? Am I giving people my full attention when I'm out for dinner, like it's okay to just stop and evaluate and then make some changes and say you know what? This isn't what I want the rest of my life to look like. I don't want it to be centered around being on my phone all the time, or I don't want to get to my kid's graduation and be like looking back and regretting how much time I wasted on my phone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so good or not making memories with them or not being present, and so even just taking a pause and be like, okay, what are some changes that I can make right now to change the course of moving forward? And what does that look like? I know, for me, like I said, it's putting my phone on do not disturb like plugging it in and putting it on the other side of my bedroom.
Speaker 1:So I still hear the alarm at night, like being disciplined and some of it just takes discipline to not. You know, I'm not going to pick my phone up and scroll or or bring a book with you, like I started doing that. Like I'll go, um, shout out to hey Healthy. Like I'll go to red light therapy but I'll sit and do one of the treatments on a massage chair. And I've started to like, bring a book in with me and put my phone down and read a book instead of sitting. Scroll my phone, yeah. Like have a book in your purse or in your car. Or like pick up a book and read while you're waiting for something, instead of just scrolling on your phone. Like start putting some of those things in place, turn the tv off and play a game. Like play board game with your kids or with your family, or go for a walk together after dinner instead of just scrolling. Yeah, um, and just to, to really be intentional, because I mean your kids are going to grow up so fast.
Speaker 2:You can attest to this like it's like the blink of an eye. I've heard this recently, which was kind of a depressing thought, but they said the most time that the majority of your life with your kids that will spend is up to 18. And after that it's so not anything in comparison to what you've done. So it's like, if you don't, one of my kids is moving out this coming week and the other one is staying, but it's just like, wow, that was so fast and there's so many things I want to do differently.
Speaker 2:And and yeah, I think, with the screen it's like am I modeling the behavior of how I navigate my digital use? Well, you know, am I? You know I don't want to use my phone during dinner. I want it to be where my kids walk in and I can look them in the eye instead of being distracted. Because if the whole family is distracted by digital devices, then there's no connection, there's no communication, and if you're setting rules on your kids that you're not upholding yourself, it's kind of like hypocritical, you know. So I think it's important that we, as parents, set those examples and try to be intentional. And yeah, I mean, I think, knowing you don't have your kids forever yeah and yep, and I would add in just with, like, the parent-child relationship.
Speaker 1:One thing I've really learned about Gen Z is they like to understand how things work. They're actually a very curious generation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can't tell them because I said so yeah.
Speaker 1:And I mean there's an element of like. Okay, it's good for them to learn like, to not just grow up entitled and be like well, this is how I am, so this is how you have to be. Um, but to to actually, I think one of the things that I've loved in working with teenagers right now and I had to learn this the hard way Like I'm, like I said I'm a helper, but I'm also a fixer and my brain works in solutions. So like I'll walk into a restaurant, for example, and say, wow, if you did this, this and this differently, it could be so much smoother in here.
Speaker 2:or the line would go so much faster, or you know what I?
Speaker 1:mean, I'm just like, it's just, I think it's a gift. It can also feel like a curse sometimes, but I've had to learn to step back and be like, okay, I'm not going to just tell you what to do, but what are questions that I can ask to say to help them get to that point? And I think that even just brings so much depth to a relationship between an adult and a child where they it brings out and I think it's it's necessary now more than ever, because socially, kids aren't doing great in real-time conversations that aren't in or aren't surrounded around a screen, to be able to say, okay, well, what do you think about that? Or, um, what do you think is stopping you from doing that? Or how did that make you feel when a guy asked you for these pictures? Or do you think like, know, just having those conversations and asking questions for them? And I mean, obviously there's a place as parents where you have to say no, you cannot do that and like that's okay, or this is what's going to happen in this situation.
Speaker 1:Like you're not going to go to your friend's house, you're not going to go to this party, you're not going to whatever, like there's a way to do that as a parent and it's your responsibility as a parent to protect your kids and guide them and teach them. But I think now more than ever, there is a value and importance and even a necessity. It's pretty critical to be able to have conversations with your kids and start that process of talking more intentionally, because they're not getting it like in so many other other ways now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and also I like what you said about problem solving, like asking the questions about so they can process things. And I've had to, even sometimes where my kids felt like I was being unreasonable with the consequences, and so we talked about like OK, well, do you see what you've done and if you were a parent, what would you think would be a fair consequence for this? So we brainstorm on different consequences and it's funny because when you get them involved, it's like you don't become the enemy. They're just like okay, yeah, then do you think this is fair? And we all like I've offered options in the past it's like let's dissect this and do you think this is fair? Like what, what would be a fair consequence? And then they kind of come up with one and you're like, wow, it's kind of worse than I would.
Speaker 2:You're like, wow, okay, and again not coming from a perfect parent, because I have failed more times than not.
Speaker 1:They don't exist.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I mean, they don't, you're right, but but it's just interesting. I think when you do ask the questions and like you, I'm more prone to be like OK, let me solve that for you, let me tell you how, what to do. But it's so important for them to develop their own problem-solving skills and be able to process all that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I would say, now more than ever, because it's lacking than the generations before. In this digital age, it's just problem-solving looks so different, lacking than the generations before. In this digital age, it's just problem solving looks so different. They're not out using that part of their brains and the creativity and imagination, and it's just so different. And it's easy because there's such an instant gratification. In this generation, it's easy to be like well, I don't like that, so I'm going to not do it, or this job isn't exactly what I wanted it to be, and so I quit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there are so many of them Like. They're like I don't know the exact percentage, I should have brought it with me, but it's like a high percentage of kids now who, when you ask them what they want to be when they grow up, is they want to be an influencer or YouTube famous or just even those things, and they're not bad things to be. Like you can. You can make a huge difference, like on a platform, and you can use that for good. But it's also that mindset of that's what they, that's what's in front of them all the time. Yeah, so so different, so different than what we grew up with, but it's beautiful at the same time. So Okay, so I'm going. We grew up with, but it's beautiful at the same time.
Speaker 2:So there's a lot of great things, so I'm going to ask you to wrap up this thing what is the hope for this generation? Because I know we talked a lot about parents. Beware, these are the things, but what is some of the hope that you have for this generation? Working with them?
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, like I said, I see such creativity in this generation and the. I see such creativity in this generation and and like the internet can be a really good thing too. So because of what they have access to, they have so many more opportunities um to take that creativity into the world and be seen. And I think my hope for this generation is that I think that they're pioneers in so many ways because they kind of got thrown into pioneering the digital age without choice. But I see so many especially lately, I would say, of our own students. I just see this rising up and taking ownership.
Speaker 1:And there was this revival that happened out in Asbury, I think two years ago now, and one of the things that was so cool was out of college. It was, like you know, worship for weeks like 24-7, around the clock, and I actually drove out to see it because I was like I just want to see what this is like, and it was all Gen Z led and it was just. I saw this hunger in a generation and so I think that hunger, that desire for something more, is going to drive this generation honestly to bring so much change to the world, and in a good way. I think so many of them are actually getting sick of the digital age and wanting it's, it's. I think there's like this trend happening right now of getting flip phones, which is so funny to me because I love my iPhone and I grew up with the flip phone, yeah, but I think, I think there is this as Gen Z is getting older, there's this desire to not be so connected all the time. I'm full of hope for this generation.
Speaker 2:I'm curious to see if there's going to be a flip Like hey, we're taking a stand, we're going to do things differently. I think there will be to a degree.
Speaker 2:I've seen talk on just different articles and things about people quitting social media. Even I know there's been places I don't know if it's like Netherlands or Denmark where they set up, like in cathedrals, like creative. They just invite people. You can't be there with your phone and it's just like people come there to read, to paint, to do different things, and I'm'm like that'll be so cool to host one day. Like just have a space where, like your ticket to get in is you can't have a device on you, yeah, and it's like there can be conversation beanbags, you know, you can have painting, you can have poetry, you can have reading and it's just like a creative, like I love that.
Speaker 1:Well, and one of the cool things we saw. Like I said, we take these kids on the beach trip without their phones. By the end of the trip they feel relieved. I can't tell you how many kids are like oh, it feels so good not to have my phone when you like, feel like you're prying out their fingers leaving for the trip. Yeah, so I think even in that sense it's they are feeling the effects of that and wanting to bring change.
Speaker 2:So I am full of hope for this generation. Well, thank you so much, Katie, for this conversation. It's been an honor to have you, and I usually wrap up my podcast with asking three questions. One of them is what's the bravest thing that Katie's ever done?
Speaker 1:I think honestly, I think moving to Haiti, yeah, that's um, when I moved there, I had never been there before, so, like my first time going there was the day that I moved there. Wow, um, I didn't know. I mean, I knew through an acquaintance, I knew someone there, but it wasn't. I didn't have relationship with anybody there and it was one of the scariest things I think I've ever done and one of the most rewarding things I think I've ever done. It was absolutely worth the risk.
Speaker 2:Wow, and then what are some books that were pivotal in your life?
Speaker 1:I mean not to sound cliche as a Christian, but honestly the Bible I mean not to sound cliche as a Christian, but honestly the Bible like has just learning how to understand and read the Bible has been life-changing for me in so many ways. I read this book. It's a Christian novel called Redeeming Love, called Redeeming Love, and that was a book that it's just a fictional story based off of a Bible story, but that was a book that impacted my life in a huge way. I would say. More recently I've been reading a lot on just this Gen Z stuff. I mean I'm reading a bunch of counseling books for school, but I also have been reading this book called why Revival Terry's by Leonard Ravenhill, and that has been a very impactful book in my life, and another one that you told me about is the Anxious.
Speaker 1:Life or what's that? The Anxious Generation yeah, that's a book that is about Gen Z and their anxiety and the things that they're facing. That's an incredible book. And Gen Z and their anxiety and the things that they're facing that's an incredible book. And who's the author of that? Jonathan Haidt, H-A-I-D-T. That's been a great book, Lots of really great statistics and just bringing understanding. Another great resource is if you look up Steven Robertson. He has a book about Gen Z being aliens. It's phenomenal. I got to hear him speak and he is so great. You can even look him up on YouTube. He's so great at articulating some of the main differences between generations.
Speaker 2:OK, awesome and best advice you've ever had.
Speaker 1:Oh man, you know I had this moment. There was a season in my life where I just I wasn't like really walking with the Lord and had kind of taken a detour and then found my way back and I got. During that time I got this letter from my grandma, who she passed away like 10 years ago now, but she was one of my favorite people and she just said keep pursuing Jesus. And honestly, I think that's the best advice I can have or I've been given or that I could give, because just to keep doing it, my life means nothing without that. So yeah, Beautiful.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you so much.
Speaker 2:It's been an honor and a pleasure. Yeah, thank you so much. It's been an honor and a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for listening to the Once we Dare podcast. It is an honor to share these encouraging stories with you. If you enjoy the show, I would love for you to tell your friends. Leave us a reviewer rating and subscribe to wherever you listen to podcasts, because this helps others discover the show. You can find me on my website, speckhopawcom.