THE ONES WHO DARED
THE ONES WHO DARED PODCAST Elevating stories of courage. You can listen to some of the most interesting stories of courage, powerful life lessons, and aha moments. Featuring interviews with leaders, pioneers and people who have done hard things. I hope these stories help pave the path for you to live out your courageous life.
THE ONES WHO DARED
From Soviet Oppression to Academic Freedom: Dr. Victoria Khiterer on Russia's History of Religious Persecution
Dr. Victoria Khiterer an esteemed historian and professor at Millersville University, joins us to share her compelling journey from the Soviet Union to the United States, defying the oppressive policies that aimed to silence her voice. Her personal stories of resilience bring to life the harsh realities faced by those living under Soviet rule. From her experiences with Perestroika to witnessing the collapse of the Soviet regime, Dr. Khiterer insights offer a vivid portrayal of courage and determination in the face of adversity.
Hear about the trials and triumphs of a Jewish historian who refused to be defined by the discrimination of her time. Despite a system that tried to crush ethnic diversity and stifle ambition, she found her path to academia during a tumultuous period of change. Learn how perseverance and an unwavering commitment to her dreams led her to pursue a career in history, eventually bringing her to the U.S., where she continued her influential work in teaching and research.
This episode uncovers the enduring impact of Soviet policies on freedom of speech and religious expression, through personal narratives and historical analysis. We dive into the persecution of intellectuals, Stalin's tyrannical reign, and the struggle to commemorate Jewish history amid state-driven narratives. Dr.Khiterer provides invaluable perspectives on the rich history of Jewish communities, Khrushchev's anti-religious campaigns, and the tireless fight to preserve these stories for future generations. Join us for a deeply moving discussion that underscores the importance of remembering history to shape a better future.
-Links-
https://www.svetkapopov.com/
https://www.instagram.com/svetka_popov/
I find what's interesting about this period of history too, that it was not just religious persecution that people were being essentially punished in the same way, but it was also you saying something against the leader, the government, the policies that could get you in the same crime. So I think what's interesting to understand for people who are maybe not religious or not interested in religion to begin with, but to understand that these kind of policies affect all the citizens, because you have no freedom of speech, you have no freedom of creative expression, whether it's through literature, your ideas or thoughts. It's, in general, like everything is shut down except what the leader wants you to believe, which, like you said, in that case it's a communist religion, because this is what we want you to believe in. Anything outside of this bubble, you will be punished, persecuted to the you know, unto death. Essentially, that's the severity of that law.
Speaker 1:Hey, friends, welcome to the ones who dared. Podcast where stories of courage are elevated. I'm your host, becca, and every other week you'll hear interviews from inspiring people. My hope is that you will leave encouraged. I'm so glad you're here. Dr Victoria Hitterer, thank you so much for coming on the Once With you podcast. I'm so honored to have you here today.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much for inviting me to podcast. It's a big honor for me to participate in this podcast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so Dr Victoria is a professor of history at Millersville University in Pennsylvania. She's also the founding member of the academic council of the Beban Yor Holocaust Museum Center in Kiev, ukraine. You're an author and editor of over eight books and hundreds of articles on Ukrainian, russian, eastern European Jewish history and the Holocaust, and I am so excited to talk to you here and I just want to let the audience know how we met. So I was in a forging class for my son. He was making a sword of sorts, and it was about a four hour long class and I took with me this book called the Gulag by Ann Applebaum. And so there was a student, one of your students, that was there. I think his name is Michael McClotsky. Am I saying his name, right? Yes, yeah, and so he. Just he was like one of the instructors there. He came up to me and he was like may I ask you why you're reading this book? Because it's not very common to see people your age reading a book this thick and on Gulag for all out of all things, and um. So I just told him kind of briefly, like oh, this is part of my research for a book that I'm working on, just trying to understand more of um, you know my family history and all the things.
Speaker 1:And so, as he we got talking to about the book and he was so excited, he like he lit up, you know, and he told me about you and he's like, oh, you got to get in touch with Victoria, the professor at Millersville University. She's an expert on subjects. She'd be so helpful for you and your research and anything you need. And sure enough, you were, I think. Shortly after that, we had our first Zoom call where I asked you tons of questions and just you were just like really incredible of you know how can I help you and let me know if there's anything you need. And so this go around. I thought, you know, I can have another call with you or I can have you in the podcast and we can have a conversation that not only I get to benefit from, but also the audience from just learning about all the different things.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much. It's very pleasant for me to hear that my advice was helpful, and I really like to educate people about Russian, ukrainian and Eastern European history.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so I mean. The thing that I wanted to get into the conversation with you is the history of the Soviet Union and, essentially, the lack of freedom for its citizens when it came to expression of the relief, their ideas, the religion, persecution, where it seems to be really long ingrained in the history, and the Soviet policies. Were, you know, researching it back? It's like, when did they have freedom? It's like, with every leader there was a new policy, a new wave of persecution, and sometimes it eased up a bit and then it went, you know, up and down. It was almost a rollercoaster ride, but essentially it was very hard to identify like when did they really have freedom? So, before we dig into all that stuff, I'm curious to know um, just essentially, how did you get into being a professor at millersville university? What enticed you into the subject of soviet history, like why this job, this profession?
Speaker 2:um, and yeah, in the subject altogether, I always tell my students that I grew up in the Soviet Union, so I'm an expert as a historian and I'm a high witness of many important events like Perestroika that started when I was in high school and the collapse of the Soviet Union. I left the former Soviet Union, ukraine, in 1997 when I immigrated from country. But, yes, I really, from probably my fourth or fifth grade, dreamed to become historian, and that everybody told me that it's impossible because you Jewish and history was considered in Soviet Union ideological subject. I did not want to listen to anybody and I even more dream to become historian, like to break this wall, to overcome this ban and to write a history, and I can tell you that I was very lucky one, because time has changed.
Speaker 2:I probably if I was born a decade early it would be impossible, but when I completed my high school already, as I said, it was perestroika and state anti-Semitism collapsed in the Soviet Union and soon collapsed in the Soviet Union, and Jewish people become basically accepted to former ideological, we can say departments of university and they can become historians as well, as they were allowed also to enter some other professions that were before, during Soviet time, closed for Jewish people.
Speaker 1:And what year was that? When you were graduating from high school?
Speaker 2:I was graduated in 1985, but it took me still two years to enter to university, because Perestroika really gained strength only in 87. I tried to enter university three times and first two times I was rejected basically for ideological reason. One time I even directly heard you are Jewish, you cannot study there because it's ideological faculty. And what if you decide to immigrate to Israel? Or if your family? I said I would not immigrate. I thought I would not immigrate from the country. But they said oh, you're 17 years old, you don't decide for yourself. Your family may decide to immigrate. We cannot accept you. So they just did not accept me for my ethnic background, because I was Jewish wow, that's incredible.
Speaker 1:So in a sense you were a little bit of a rebel. You were like, hey, because I can't do this, I want to push it even more. And I find it interesting that you still had this dream, even though at that time it was like, based on some of the interviews that I had with people from the former Soviet Union, you know, when I asked them, like what did you want to do when you grow up, like what were your dreams? And a lot of them just said, you know, I didn't dream, because what was the point? We didn't think like you think here in America where it's like oh, what are my possibilities? What do I want to do? You know, things were so limited that dreams weren't really that accessible, and I love that. You were like I want to be a professor and the odds were against you, but you continued to persevere.
Speaker 2:I can tell you that I always refused to feel myself a second or third class citizen. Second or third class citizen Often in my childhood, with my parents, my relatives always told me you should remember that you are Jewish. It means that in Soviet Union you cannot do this, you cannot do that. You should choose professions that are not very prestigious. Like you should go to some technical college or university and better go not in Kyiv. In Kyiv, more competition. You should go to some provincial town. While less competition, you will have a better chance to accept it. And I feel like I want to study in my city, in Kyiv.
Speaker 2:Why should there be a second-class or third-class citizen in the Soviet Union? As I said, I was lucky the time changed If it would happen decade early. Unfortunately, my relatives were right about this time, but I felt that time changed and in 87 I was accepted. And when I studied a couple years in university, my professor I even remember her name, professor Kryzhanovskaya, who taught Middle Age history, medieval history, told other students they did not accept before Jewish people because they were instructed by local departments of communist party. But Jews, she pointed to me, students are so smart, so she regrets that they did not accept before. But also she underlined that this was order from a district committee of the Communist Party that don't accept Jewish students.
Speaker 1:Interesting. And then how did you transition that education in the States, because I know not all credits are transferable from country to country? How did you get into being a professor at Millsboro University now?
Speaker 2:This was another challenge for me. I came to the United States with a PhD already, two books published, but published in Russian, of course, and with 40 articles published, and with 40 articles published. But I applied for jobs and for three years I received rejections from everywhere except community colleges. That gave me a part-time job. One of my first jobs was in Santa Monica Community College, but I dreamed to be a university professor, not a community college. But I dream to be a university professor, not a community college professor. There are big differences because in community college usually people don't do much research. They only focus on teaching and teaching just survey courses. I dream to teach advanced courses in undergraduate and graduate level and also I always was a very research-oriented person. So I understood that university would be a much more appropriate environment, a scholarly environment, for me, and I took a challenge to write a second PhD dissertation.
Speaker 2:I took a challenge to write a second PhD dissertation. I have two PhD dissertations, one from Russian State University of Humanities in Moscow and a second from Brandeis University. I was lucky that I received full scholarship from Brandeis University. My thesis advisor, professor Anthony Polonsky, who is a great specialist on Polish history, polish-jewish history and the Holocaust helped a lot because he found some donors. I, of course, came to this country without any means and I studied absolutely for free at Brandeis. I did not pay even plenty for my education, and it took me another five years and I defended my PhD dissertation in 2008 at Brandeis University and then next year I find a job at Millersville University.
Speaker 1:Oh, amazing, look at that, you're quite the fighter. Huh, you're like I'm not giving up on this, okay, well, let's dig into this subject. I think you know there's a lot of people were able to express their thoughts, their beliefs, their religion, their ideas, without fearing some sort of penalty for it.
Speaker 2:Very good question. I had my distant relative and my friend who told me that still in 1920s, beginning of 1930s, there were lots of debates at least at her home she remembers it as a child and teenager about politics, about political life in Soviet Union. So in 1920s, beginning 30s still, you can talk about politics and not be arrested for this. But unfortunately in 1937, her father was arrested as Trotskyist and that same year he was executed, just a Trotskyist. And that same year he was executed just a few months later. And I saw his KGB file and I was very displeased how many denunciations were from his students. He was professor at Lubny Lubny is a provincial Ukrainian city, so he was a professor of mathematics and, as I said, he was arrested in 1937. And in 1937, his students, his colleagues, denounced him and said oh, he criticized Soviet Union, he praised American life, he said this, he said those, he said this in 1933. So they remember four years later what he said in 1933. And just on account of this denunciation he received a death sentence in the Soviet Union.
Speaker 2:So who really participated in political discussions in 1920s, 1930s did not survive Stalin repressions that took this peak in 1937-38.
Speaker 1:Wow, and so how did you? I'm curious how you got access to the KGB files. That's an interesting thing right there.
Speaker 2:I could not get it during the existence of the Soviet Union, but when the Soviet Union collapsed and Ukraine Ukraine became more free and more open country they declassified many KGB files, especially the data before World War II. Then I was able to get his personal file and I still have a copy of this file at home and, um, I can say, yes, uh, it show basically the tragedy of stalin repressions. Because, um, his oldest daughter, whom I also knew he had three daughters, uh, from three different marriages. His oldest daughter always said that Stalin killed my father and I thought it allegory because Stalin repression and so on. I think that he definitely was.
Speaker 2:I found his name in Stalin list. I will explain what is Stalin list. I will explain what is Stalin list. Most prominent people like professors of university, intellectuals, also some local leaders or members of administrations, or poets or writers basically prominent people were killed only from Stalin's personal agreement. So NKVD how to call them, kgb, it was People's Commissariat of Internal Affairs did not want to take responsibility for their decision. So they provide a list of these prominent people for Stalin's signature and often on this list also signatures of either Kaganovich or Voroshilov, the Soviet leaders, and my relative his real name was Steinberg, but revolutionary pseudonym was Tkachuk Boris Zaharevich Tkachuk, who after the revolution became a professor of mathematics and basically not so was involved in political life, was killed later, as I said in 1937, life was killed later, as I said in 1937, as Trotskyist, on base of denunciation of students and colleagues.
Speaker 1:Well, so, if I am getting this correctly, before in 1917, right, there was semi-freedom for the Orthodox Church, but that was also because the Orthodox Church was almost an arm of the government. They were very heavily controlled by the government and so and it's almost like they wanted to be recognized that this is their religion, is Orthodox. Am I correct? Can you kind of elaborate a little more on that period?
Speaker 2:Yes, before 1917, the Christian Orthodox Church became a state church in the Russian Empire. It was a state church basically as long as the Russian Empire existed. Other religions actually were semi-suppressed but also allowed. I said semi-suppressed because during Soviet times they were really suppressed. What I mean semi-suppressed? There were restrictions for people who want, for example, convert to Judaism. It was not basically allowed. There were also restrictions for Catholic people and so on. But their churches were open, synagogues were open and I can say Jewish people can have their rabbis. I can say Jewish people can have their rabbis, orthodox people could have their priests. We can say other congregations, like Lutherans, can have their pastors. So it was not completely suppressed but was, I would say, partially suppressed, non-state religion and they were under control of state. But the difference is that in Soviet time almost all religions were completely suppressed except communist religion. We can say that communism also was a belief of people and synagogues, mosques, churches were closed.
Speaker 1:And many religious or were executed. Yeah, so it was during Vladimir Lenin period right, that was from 1917 to 1924, that they had the Bolshevik Revolution, and so there was a decree on separation of the church and the state in 1918. And then that's when they persecuted the clergy, and was that a time too that they were taking down church bells and just trying to get rid of everything?
Speaker 2:In 1918, I just started this company, but it continued for many years and it went back and forth because people resisted religious resistance. I can tell you that Lenin and Bolsheviks during the civil war really need money confiscate everything from churches, synagogues, all valuable gold and silver subjects, ritual subjects. But it still does not mean that they closed all these churches because of religious resistance.
Speaker 2:They probably would close more if they could. But they did not want to alienate the mass of population because many people were still quite religious. But the second wave of this campaign started in the late 1920s. It was already under Stalin in the 28th, 29th, 30th and basically the first half of the 1930s also, when many churches, synagogues and mosques were closed everywhere in the Soviet Union.
Speaker 1:Was that the?
Speaker 2:great purge. It was part of the purge. Why in this period of time? Because Stalin calls it a cultural revolution In 1928, when he finished with NEP, with New Economic Policy, and he believed that part of Cultural Revolution should be a theistic education of people, that they should not believe in God anymore, they should not go to churches, they should not go to synagogues, they should not go to mosques. So let's close all of them. And Soviet power was much stronger than during the Civil War, when there were many different enemies. But at this time they feel that they are strong enough to do whatever they want and ignore, basically, people's opinion.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that was when things got really more heavily persecuted, in a sense, and they were sending people to gulags and or, like you said, executing people, sending them to prisons, executions, tortures, all the things, that it was not just religious persecution that people were being essentially punished in the same way, but it was also you saying something against the leader, the government, the policies that could get you in the same crime.
Speaker 1:So I think what's interesting to understand for people who are maybe not religious or not interested in religion to begin with, but to understand that these kind of policies affect all the citizens, because you have no freedom of speech, you have no freedom of creative expression, whether it's through literature, your ideas or thoughts. It's, in general, like everything is shut down except what the leader wants you to believe, which, like you said, in that case it's a communist religion, because this is what we wants you to believe, which, like you said, in that case, it's a communist religion, because this is what we want you to believe. And anything outside of this bubble, you will be punished, persecuted to the, you know, unto death. Essentially, that's the severity of that law.
Speaker 2:Exactly. I can tell you that in 1920s, when there was still new economic policy that established Lenin, there were still four different political parties in the Soviet Union. There were socialist parties, there were some Jewish pro-socialist parties. They were not all closed immediately in the Soviet Union, but by the late 1920s there was only one political party that controlled everything. It was the Communist Party. And then we can say all freedom of people was suppressed. No more freedom of speech, no more political parties except the Communist Party and no immigration from the Soviet Union. Any more political parties except Communist Party and no immigration from Soviet Union. Because in 1920 still people can leave the country if they disagree, but in 1930s the gates of the country were totally sealed. We can say and people cannot leave the country. They were stuck there and they were deprived of freedom of speeches, freedom of assemblies, freedom of express themselves as they want.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the other thing that I find very interesting was that, at the same time, the Soviet Union didn't want other countries to believe that they were persecuting people for religious beliefs. Is that true?
Speaker 2:Yes, soviet policy was quite hypocritical. They said we don't persecute people for religion, we have freedom of consciousness. And they also claim that they don't have anti-Semitism in the Soviet Union, when there was lots of anti-Semitism. So they did persecute people for religious belief. For example, people who attended church could lose easily their jobs. They can be expelled from university if they're students of university. So there were persecutions. It does not mean that everybody went to prison, but a person who was a believer cannot basically take any prestigious position in Soviet society.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a good point too, and under Stalin's rule. The other thing that I find interesting is that when they were arresting people for you know, essentially, if people were believers, whether it was Judaism, christianity, catholic, whatever that was they had what I'm calling a fake court with false witnesses, and also the charges that they were charged with were not, rather than them being honest and saying you know this person, because of your faith, we are arresting you and sentencing you to X, y and Z. It would be like you know you're the enemy of the state because you are. You know it was under section 58, 10, and 11, which was anti-government propaganda, anti-government agitation, things like that that was.
Speaker 1:Or they would label you, things like, in my family's case, my grandmother was labeled as an American spy and she was the enemy of the state and she was an agitator of the government and the citizens. And so essentially, and at the top of that, you would have false witnesses and people who would say things, or like the professor that you talked about, the math professor who had all these different things that people wrote about him. And so why bother? Why bother to even create this illusion of a court system or like that? There's some kind of justice or process that goes through when people were just being shot anyways, like to me, it's just there's not a lot of logic behind that, so I'd love to get an explanation to why that was the case.
Speaker 2:It? European mask on Asian face. How call it? Historian Dubnov, still in the Russian empire, was many despotic features of Asian regime.
Speaker 2:At those times the rulers tried to wear European masks and pretend we are European, we are civilized people.
Speaker 2:For example, during the Cultural Revolution in China the crowds killed, how they believe, believe, enemies of the people, among whom were many Chinese intellectuals, on the street, without any court and judgment system. But in Soviet Union they pretend that they have a court, that they are European, that they pursuing some laws and so on. But we should remember about Soviet courts and Soviet trials that they were very short and especially in the peak of Stalin repressions, some I saw trials took like 10 minutes. That gave the death sentence to some particular person on accusation of Trotskyism or counter-revolutionary activity or some other accusations. So we can say it were delusion that you saw it's probably for Western society. We can say it was a delusion that the Soviet Union was probably for Western society to look better in the eyes of European and Western countries because they wanted to be before World War II in some alliances with other countries in some alliances with other countries. But really it was more delusion for local population and for Western countries than the real court.
Speaker 1:So I'm just curious at that time, were people, say, neighbors and citizens in the Soviet Union? Did they believe that there was justice? Or were people aware of how corrupt the system was? For the most part, because, as you said, they're trying to pretend an illusion to the people in the country and outside the country, but how obvious was it that what was going on behind the scenes was just a hoax?
Speaker 2:essentially, I can say some naive people believe, but there were many people who did not believe in anything and just try to distance themselves from political life to survive in this country. For example, just in history of my own family, my grandmother, maternal grandmother, always said I'm not interested in politics, I'm not interested in politics, and this basically was her reaction on what's going on in the country and that she wanted to survive in this country. I heard from my father that when Stalin died, my grandfather, paternal grandfather, said that big bandit died. So he knew that Stalin is big bandit, that he's basically a criminal himself, so he definitely did not respect him. But while Stalin still was alive he kept his mouth shut because also wanted to survive. So some people that understood what was going on but wanted to survive sit quiet just to survive.
Speaker 2:And other naive people maybe believe because I read many memoir survive. And other naive people may believe because I read many memoirs and memoirs of famous cartoon artists from Soviet Union Boris Efimov, who lived 101 years and after the collapse of the Soviet Union he said yes, I believe in all the show trials because people admit their guilt, for example, bukharin, rykov, zinoviev. They all said that they provide harmful activity in the Soviet Union, that they try to destroy the political regime, and so on. So what did Stalin's regime do? They tortured people during interrogation and arrested their families.
Speaker 2:And because of this, yes, on show processes that organized Soviet Union in 1937-38, some Soviet leaders admitted that they were enemies of the people, that they want to undermine Soviet regime and so on and other nonsense. And because they admitted their guilt.
Speaker 1:Some naive people believe in this yeah, and it's interesting too that what I remember is just in my study as well, of reading memoirs, watching videos and different things like that that there were people that were actually genuinely grieved when Stalin died because they felt like he was a good leader, even some that were in gulags and punished under his policies and his rules, which is mind-boggling.
Speaker 1:But some of them believe that if he knew I was in this gulag, he would have never allowed this to happen, like this was a mistake. And so there was this illusion of if our leader's great, he has no idea that this is really happening to the extent or the way that it is, because you know and I just happen to be a victim of system gone wrong or something like that. Where it is because you know and I'm just happened to be a victim of system gone wrong or something like that, where it's like what, how is it? Yeah, so to me that was just very surprising because initially, when I was just researching solely my grandmother's story and her letter and I assumed that everybody was rejoicing when Salen died, because that was just what I thought would happen, knowing how evil he was. But apparently that wasn't the case because some people were so bought into the idea of his leadership that even when they were in the gulag, even after he died, they felt like no, he was still a good leader.
Speaker 2:Some people believe in Stalin like God. When people were deprived of religions, I mean Christianity, judaism, islam they look for like a new religion and a new religion was communism and many of them believe that Stalin almost demigod that represent their country and construction of communism.
Speaker 1:Wow, yeah, that's really crazy, and so too, for some of the things that they had was like Section 5810, 5811, the Article 206. So can you kind of dissect those a little bit more of who kind of came under that and what that entailed?
Speaker 2:I remember that my relative was under one of these articles 58, I don't remember paragraph, it was 5810 or 11 or something else. But the problem is that, as I said, stalin not just killed people, he really beheaded the country. He exterminated intellectuals, intelligentsia, critically thinking people. Yeah, so only obedient people or scared people who did not dare to protest survived, and this is a big problem because he killed the most prominent people in the society. Also, along with this, he killed millions of peasants during the Holodomor because there was resistance, and in Ukraine the resistance was stronger than in other parts of the country.
Speaker 2:Ukraine, like Pennsylvania, has the most fertile lands in Eastern Europe, so it was a breadbasket of the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union and there never would have occurred a famine if Stalin did not confiscate all bread from peasants.
Speaker 2:And he did this to punish them that they did not want to work on collective farms, that they did not want to work on collective farms, that they did not fulfill their plan, soviet plans on collective farms and peasants in Ukraine.
Speaker 2:Farmers in Ukraine get used to be individual farmers, they don't get used to work together on some farm where nobody is responsible for anything. And they really resist and they were uprising. So Stalin decided to broke the spirit of people with famine. It's a famous phenomenon when people, exhausted from famine, they could not anymore resist. This phenomenon showed up not only during Halada Mor, but during World War II, when people were in concentration camps, when they turned basically to skeletons, when they barely can walk. Of course, these people cannot fight against those who did this to them, and we can say that it's one of the largest crimes of the Stalin regime, because in peaceful years between World War I and World War II, in the most fertile part of the Soviet Union that were the lands of Ukraine, he organized famines that perished, by different calculation, from four to six million people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a tragedy, and in some cases I mean I know there was a lot of debate on whether that was true or not, which is pretty mind-boggling. I mean, I know, even you know my family history there's evidence that this was true, because my grandmother's family actually moved out of Ukraine when she was young because of what was going on, and so I mean it's a real thing, that happened and as anything, I mean even today we have people who are Holocaust deniers that say that you know, the Jews weren't ever persecuted to the extent that they were, and so it's interesting, and I think that's why the work that you do as a historian is so important to educate people of what the world is capable of, how humans were mistreated, because if we don't learn from the past, mistakes can be repeated. If we think, you know it's impossible I mean there was a woman that I was interviewing her family were um taken to um, taken to the uh, to the nazi concentration camps, and they lived in a small village and the dad was like we're not going to leave, even though our neighbors are leaving, because no one will be capable of what you guys are talking about. It's impossible that someone is just going to come in and do this or put us in extermination camps or slave us Like what are you talking about? So they ended up staying because he was in denial that this kind of inhumane treatment was possible.
Speaker 1:Because, you know, we judge people based on our intentions, the way that we think, and we think like it would be impossible. This has never happened before. And sure enough his family was taken and she was a survivor. But it's just. I think that some of those things in history just seem improbable, impossible because of how extreme it is. I mean to for people like especially I mean us living in US right now for people to say one thing wrong about their leader and then the neighbor hearing and reporting it to the local you know government officials can get you shot and or sent to, you know, a thousand miles away from home and your family will never see you again Just seems improbable.
Speaker 2:It seems, you know, it's stripping of every human right uh, yes, I want to say that, um, I'm jewish and, uh, I heard from both grandmothers uh, how horrible was famine in ukraine. One grandmother told me that she was then very young, she was born in 1914, and in 1933 she was 19 years old and she fainted from famine. She lived then in a small town, bila Tserkva, this town near Kiev, ukraine, just a couple hours from Kyiv, and to survive she ran away from this town to Kyiv because in Kyiv was a little bit better situation with provision and also they leave to her brothers that had job. She said she then was student at college and she said in the small town Bila Tserkva that she could not study because she fainted from famine. I mean, she was so hungry.
Speaker 2:And other grandmothers that lived at this time in Kiev said that she remembered that near Biserabsky market that in downtown Kiev were many swollen people. They probably gathered around this market because they hoped that somebody give them piece of bread or some food or something like this. They probably came from villages and she said it was very difficult to see basically how these people dine on the street. But she said I had nothing to give them because all bread usage, even in cities, was restricted and people receive like 50 grams of bread or 100 grams of bread per day and depend upon their job and position in society and it was absolutely nothing to give them because they did not have enough bread themselves.
Speaker 1:Wow yeah, that's just unthinkable and it's something that could have been easily avoided. It was not a necessary punishment to the society.
Speaker 2:If Stalin did not confiscate all bread from Ukrainian peasants, it never would happen, because even in time of Russian Empire and then during civil war and revolution, never exists such horrible famine as Stalin organized in 1933 in Soviet Union, and particularly in Ukraine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow. Soviet Union, in particular in Ukraine, yeah, wow. Well, moving on to the next leader of Russia down the history line, here we have Nikita Khrushchev, who issued his own new wave of religious persecution. So he issued the Khrushchev's anti-religious campaign from 1958 to 1964, and so it was called the thaw and renown suppression. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:Yes, I mean. Censorship was then somewhat liberated in Soviet Union. Solzhenitsyn then could publish one day of Ivan Denisovich, about Gulag and Stalin repressions, his biographical novel. Many other novels were published, but there was a new wave of war against religion. So more churches, synagogues and mosques were closed everywhere because Khrushchev believed that he was building communism and he even announced that in 1980, the Soviet Union should be communism, whatever they had as they called socialism or developed socialism. And he believed that in the future communist society no place for religion.
Speaker 1:So there was a new, we can say war against religion yeah, and so with that too, he targeted um even parents from teaching their children about um any religion, and that was also punishable. What were some of the consequences? Like if people did um teach their children about their faith whichever you faith, that was during that time.
Speaker 2:I can say if people attended churches for any event, baptized somebody or for religious waiting, they can be fired from their jobs. And then they could not find their jobs according to their profession, especially if they were qualified workers. Only professions that remained for them would be like janitor or some very low-rank profession. And also, if some person who was a member of a communist party or a communist youth member attends the church or synagogue, he can be expelled from this organization. And then if you're not a member, for example, of a communist youth organization, you cannot be accepted to university. You cannot be accepted to university. Basically, you don't have any career or any good future in Soviet Union. Only, as I said, very low-qualification jobs that were not prestigious, like janitor or unqualified worker on some plant, would be open for you. But everything plant would be open for you, but everything else would be closed for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and were not parents threatened to have their children taken away had they practiced their religion at home?
Speaker 2:I can say that I don't know, but there could be such cases. I don't know. But I know for sure that Jewish people in my childhood were afraid to attend synagogue because they knew that under KGB observation, that there are KGB agents including the board of synagogue. Synagogue was deprived rabbi but was members of board that were appointed basically by authorities and they reported on all people who came there. And same situation was in churches where often is a priest or somebody else who attends the church was kgb member and reported people who attended religious services yeah, yeah, yeah, it's crazy.
Speaker 1:I mean, I personally know a friend of mine whose dad was brought up in the orphanage. I would say he was born around would be my mom's age, which would be 1958, around that era, which was when 1958 was the release of anti-religious campaign, and so he was taken away from his family because his family believed in God and he was raised in an orphanage, and so for him that was a very traumatic period as a child, as you can imagine, of not having access to your parents and being re-educated essentially to. You know, what you say is the communist religion of an atheist belief system, um, that there is no God and science and all that which. Nothing's wrong with science, but you know, when you couple it like that, it's just it creates its own delusion, um, so, yeah, that was just um really interesting that um he, uh, nikita Khrushchev also said at one point that he was going to show the last. Was it the last priest or the last believer standing on national television?
Speaker 2:yes, I can say that during Brezhnev time. Probably I was born during the Brezhnev time. I was born in the Brezhnev time, I was born in 1968. And when I grew up, such restrictions, at least in Kiev, were a little bit relaxed. Because I remember when I visit my friend, her grandmother was religious and she had icons at home. She lived with her grandmother, my friend, and my friend told me oh, my grandmother is very backward, she still believes in God. A couple of times her grandmother kept religious books and also icons at home.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, and it seems like under Brezhnev there was more of a gradual relaxation from religious persecution, and then that was from 1964 to 1982 that he was in power, and then we had the Gorbachev and more religious freedom there from 1985 to 1991, where they actually made churches be legal. 91, where they actually made churches be legal and so people could actually publish different materials, have seminary, do charitable work and things like that. So it's interesting that. But during the Khrushchev period too, people who were believers had to be very creative in how they gathered and how they expressed their faith. Some places, whether it was synagogues or home churches, were more like nocturnal churches. Home churches that you know essentially had to practice their faith. You know, away from the eyes or when everybody was asleep, was the only time that they could actually express, to get their faith together within groups, even if it would look like really small groups so that they wouldn't get caught.
Speaker 2:Yes, Jewish people also, many of them prefer to pray at home or somebody home and don't go to synagogue. Because they very soon figure out, if you go to synagogue, then KGB then invite you for and then you fight for your job. Conversation they call it conversation, yes, but yes, consequences of this conversation that you fight for your job, you're expelled from university and have other problems. So it was not pleasant and, yes, people start to pray more at home and don't attend the only one open synagogue in Kyiv. In pre-revolutionary time, in beginning of 20th century, in Kyiv was 20 synagogues. In Soviet time was only one open synagogue. You can see the big difference between approach of Tsarist authorities and Soviet authorities towards the religion.
Speaker 1:Wow, yeah, that's definitely incredible. And the other thing that was interesting when the religious persecution kind of subsided, they created and I don't know under what policy or what that would be called, but essentially where if you wanted to express your faith, you had to register the synagogue, the church, wherever that is. You had to be registered church in order to operate and if you weren't registered there was additional penalties for that. But to be registered, you were also under more of the eye of the government. They needed to know what sermons you were doing, who was there, they had to get a report of all the people in attendance and everything else. So I'd love for you to speak a little more on that period and why that was the case, how that kind of came about.
Speaker 2:I saw in documents that Soviet authorities continuously closed the we can say home prayer houses because they want all religious life to keep under their control. And Jewish people that was a significant part of the population before World War II. Jews made 26% of the population. After the war of course less because many perished in the Holocaust. They complained that there was not enough space in one synagogue. We cannot really go there. Really religious Jews cannot take public transportation on Jewish holidays. We cannot go by feet. Old people, synagogues far away from our home, and authorities never allowed to open second synagogue and they turned other two synagogues that they confiscated, actually three synagogues. One was dining hall for some plant, that was a farmer synagogue on Galsky Square. Now it's Victory Square. Other synagogue in downtown of Kyiv was turned to puppet theater and one more synagogue was turned to movie theater.
Speaker 2:So they left only one synagogue, not in downtown but in more remote Padol or Padil in the Ukrainian district, and they never want to hear a complaint of Jews that there's not enough space, that it's overcrowded during Jewish holidays, because it only was for 5,000 people and in Kiev, even after World War II, it was over 100,000 Jewish people.
Speaker 2:And like your problem, you don't have space, it's your problem. At the same time they did not allow them a prayer at home. If they heard that somebody organized prayer house and Jews should pray 10 men together to create a so-called minyan, by basically order of religion, religion by religious custom. If they heard that in some private house come 10 Jews pray together, they immediately come, confiscate Jewish religious books and sometimes they threaten to confiscate even an apartment from the owner if they will continue these meetings, prayer meetings. I am sure that the same persecution was against Christian religion and other religions in the Soviet Union, because before the revolution in Kieviv were hundreds of churches In Soviet times were open very few churches and some churches were turned to for some other purposes and other churches were completely destroyed, and among them were some beautiful churches that were basically architectural landmarks for Kiev, but in 1930s Soviet authorities destroyed them.
Speaker 1:And that was under Stalin's rule, right, because even Lenin didn't touch some of those architectures, because he still seen the value in them and with Stalin he just demolished it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 1930s, under Stalin's rule, when these churches were explored in Moscow, in Kiev, in other parts, cities and towns in the Soviet Union, and after the collapse of the Soviet regime. Finally, some of these churches were rebuilt as a replica of previously existed churches. For example, in Kiev, mikhailovsky Cathedral that just across, basically, of Sofia, the beautiful cathedral. But it's a replica because original cathedral was destroyed in 1930s during Stalin's rule, and many other churches, as I said, were closed. So people have a problem to find a place where they can pray and a few remaining churches were under strict observation of KGB. Romanian churches were under strict observation of KGB.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I remember seeing during that destruction in the 30s of the churches, just they were collecting like bells. There was like hundreds of bells, church bells that were, and you know, confiscating the wealth of the church too and things that were you know valuables out of there. So it was a devastating time for sure. Well, I want to honor your time. I'm going to wrap up with asking you some of the ending questions that I have, and actually, before we get into that, I'd love to get into. You have a few books out. One you have coming out soon and the one you have written recently too is called Jewish City or Inferno of Russian Israel a history of the Jews in Kiev before 1917. So I'd love for you to just share a little bit about your work on that book there.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much. Five generations of my family lived in Kyiv, ukraine, and I was always interested in the history of Jews in my native city, in Kyiv, but this history never was written and I decided that it's my mission to write the history of Jews in Kyiv, where I was one of the largest Jewish communities in the Russian Empire and then in the Soviet Union and basically even during the Russian Empire. My book covered a period from the 10th century until 1917, but most of the book about the second half of the 19th, beginning of the 20th century until 1917, but most of the book about second half of 19th beginning of 20th century.
Speaker 2:Jews faced many discrimination, anti-semitism and persecution. However, despite of all this persecution and discrimination, they liked it as a beautiful city. They contributed a lot in development of the city. There were several families of masonites who built a lot of buildings that are still in use in Kiev, for example, brodsky family, who were sugar tycoon. They built Bessarabsky market. They built first infection disease hospital in Kyiv. That was very needed because Kyiv periodically suffered from cholera and other epidemic diseases. They built together. They contribute money to a construction Kyiv Polytechnical Institute that now Kyiv Polytechnical University is building, still in use from late 19th, beginning of 20th century and Brodsky family built two synagogues in Kiev. So I try to see the balance between Jewish city, where exists one of the largest Jewish community, and persecution of Jews, anti-jewish violence during 1881 pogrom and the 1905 pogrom and then organized by the anti-Semitic circle, the Baylis affair. That was a ritual murder, accusation of Jews that they used Christian blood for religious purposes. Of course it's an absurd, nonsense accusation because Jews don't use any blood for any religious purposes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not really in their religious practices. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So this is all I describe in my book about the history of Jews in Kiev Jewish city, or inferno of Russian Israel. And my book about the history of Jews in Kyiv Jewish city, or inferno of Russian Israel. And my book received a Choice Outstanding Academic Book Award as one of the best academic books.
Speaker 2:Only like 5% academic books receive this award. However, when I wrote this book, I intentionally wrote it in scholarly, popular style that not only specialists on Jewish history but common people could read it and understand everything that is in this book, and I put there lots of illustrations, maps and make this history even more, we can say, visible for the people. This is my book about the history of Jews in Kyiv, my new book, A Bitter War of Memory Babi Yar, massacre after mass, and commemoration about the greatest tragedy in Jewish history of Kievan Jews, when almost half of the Jewish population of Kiev were killed by Nazis in Babi Yar. Basically all Jews who remained in the city were killed by Nazis and local collaborators in Kiev during occupation Survived those who went to evacuation to Ural, Siberia, Central Asian Republics of Soviet Union and those who fought on the front, but many women, children, elderly people did not have a chance to leave the city because Soviet government did not evacuate people. Soviet government evacuated military plants with workers.
Speaker 2:They worried how to survive, how their regime survived. They did not worry what would happen with people. So many women, especially with small children, elderly people that did not work on military plans, that were already retired, and many women before World War II were housewives could not leave the city and they all were killed by Nazis in Babi Yar ravine and by my calculations they were killed from 70,000 to 80,000 Jewish people. And a second crime for these people, by basically killing their memory, committed Soviet regime, soviet regime after World War II, become quite anti-Semitic and they denied that Holocaust happened at all. They said that all Soviet people suffer equally, the universal suffering of Soviet people. But they ignored or intentionally, due to their anti-Semitism, did not want to admit that only Jewish people and Roma were completely killed on base of their ethnicity. They were killed also Russian, ukrainian people, but they were either partisans or prisoners of the war, resistance fighters, but not really all people together, including women and small children and elderly people, women and small children and elderly people. So Soviets did not build a monument for a long time and when finally they built monument in 1976, they said it took key ones. They again did not mention that major victims of Bab and Yarm were Jewish people. There was not even a word about Jews, and many Jewish people of course took it as insult for memory of their relatives and friends who perished in Babi Yar. So this why Bitter memory? Because soviets provide their own concept that suffer. All soviet people and jewish people try commemorate their jewish victims and they were punished for this. They were blamed in jewish nationalism and some of them were arrested. Some received just two weeks in prison, but others were basically accused in Zionism, jewish nationalism, and received real terms like three, five years in prison, just for their attempt to tell people the truth that in Babi Yar the majority of people who perished were Jewish people.
Speaker 2:Debates about Babi Yar continue in modern Ukraine because, again, some people did not want to admit that the majority of victims of Babi Yar were Jewish. There was meet that majority of victims of Babi Yar were Jewish. There was a significant resistance of attempt to build a Holocaust museum in Babi Yar already after collapse of communism. So we can say this bitter war of memory continue until present, and war that started Russia against Ukraine even made everything more complicated because, yes, there was already organization by Biyar Holocaust Memorial Center that raised funds and began construction of museum there, but war of course stopped that. Raised funds and began construction of museums there, but war of course stopped all these construction projects. Money all disappeared because they went to war purposes and help of refugees from current war. I hope that one day, when war ends, that there will be a built museum that commemorates all victims of Babineyer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm so glad that you've produced that work, important history piece that people can have to read and study on.
Speaker 1:It is interesting, though, because even in studying of the year that my grandmother was taken, she wasn't Jewish, and so during 1943 1941 was when the Germans occupied the territory of Taganrog, russia, which was like really close to the border Ukraine. From doing further research, I discovered that they actually took the Jews first out of the town and they were told that they were taken to the ghetto, but later people found that they were shot right on the outskirts of the city. So it was very clear that the Jewish got a different treatment than the Russian citizens because, yes, my grandmother was taken from her home and sent to a concentration camp in Germany as a labor, as a worker, but she wasn't exterminated like the Jews in the same city. So there was a differentiation for sure, based on that, just studying that period of history in that particular town. So, yeah, well, I'm just so honored to even have you share different pieces, and I want to wrap up by asking a few questions, and one of them is what is the bravest thing that Dr Victoria has done?
Speaker 2:I think that the greatest thing that I've done is that I've become professor of history and my research in Jewish history. Because, yes, I heard lots of suggestions that it's impossible. You cannot become a historian in the Soviet Union. Then, when I came to the United States, I again heard you need to change your profession. There is a good field program, testers and so on, but I always want to be a historian, so I did not listen to this advice and continue doing that. I think meaningful for me and other people.
Speaker 1:I love that. That is so encouraging and inspiring, I'm sure to so many people too. Don't give up on your dreams, people. You know what you want to do. Keep going right. What would you say is the best advice that someone gave you?
Speaker 2:The best advice that I heard at my young age, when I was about 20 or even less years old don't follow blindly any advice. Analyze what people suggest to you, take all advice, but then critically think about them. What is good for you, what is bad for you? Finally, it's your decision, not advice, not people who gave advice, but it should be your decision after you analyze all information.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a good piece of advice. Right there, I also heard that you know, when you receive advice, you kind of examine the person giving it. Are they an expert in that? Is this something they have a voice to speak on, or is their life admirable and what you're trying to do that aligns with that? So I love that. And then the last question is what are two, three books that impacted your life or were pivotal, transformational for you?
Speaker 2:I can first of all say about history of Jewish people by historian Simon in Russian he is Semyon Dubnol. During Soviet time all Jewish history was forbidden in Soviet Union and books from 1930s until mid-1980s or even later, later 1980s, were in special storage place and were not allowed to be given to anybody. But my good luck is that during Perestroika this attitude changed and I read pre-revolutionary published books by Semyon Dubnov that were in Kyiv Historical Library and they opened for me 5,000 years of Jewish history and it was written very well and I enjoy reading them and I discover for myself this very rich, very complicated and in some way also very tragical history. Other book I can mention other two books, because you said two or three of them A book by Vladimir Zeev-Zhabatinsky, a collection of his essays it's called Fulitans, but it's more essays and especially an essay that he wrote about Bailey's case, where he wrote when somebody blames you that you use blood for some ritual purposes, enough to justify yourself, people still would not believe in this. Enough to say I'm not guilty, enough to say that you're so good to people. People don't believe in this. Only when Jews will have their own state and stop basically make excuses, then other people will respect you. So basically yes, basically it's advice never consider yourself a person of second or third sort, consider yourself equal among equal. And if, in this particular case, russian Empire or later Soviet Union, did not give Jews equality, many Jews immigrate and leave these countries to be equal among equal. In America, in Israel, when it was created, state of Israel. This, I think, is very good advice.
Speaker 2:And third book, actually by anti-Semitic author Vasily Shulgin. I wrote an article about him and his anti-Semitism. Vasily Shulgin, I wrote an article about him and his anti-Semitism. But at the same time he was a monarchist anti-Semite, a member of the Russian state Duma, but at the same time he was an eyewitness of very dramatic and crucial events in the history of the Russian Empire and the early Soviet Union. So he wrote a trilogy.
Speaker 2:The first book was years, then days, and then 1920, about year 1920. About the year 1920. So he described decades before the February Revolution, so from 1907 to 1917. And then he described the February Revolution in Russia and then the Civil War and especially 1920, and analyzed why the white movement was defeated in Russia. He was from Kiev, he was Kievan, he honestly and very strongly was attached to his native city. He actually published newspaper K1, and he tried, from his point of view but honest, describe political events and what this book taught me.
Speaker 2:It was different view on revolution that I studied at school and even university that it was heroic deeds, liberalization of people. He described revolution and civil war in Russia as very bloody events that make really brutal both sides. He was a member of a white monarchical movement, but he tried to tell the truth about this movement also movement, but he tried to tell truth about this movement also. He said that Bolsheviks treat us like beasts and we in response become beasts also. We also kill them just because we hate them. And this atmosphere of hatred that developed in the country and violence basically, was a great discovery for me that influenced my points of view. If before I thought in what revolutionary party I would be if I live in the beginning of the 20th century to fight against Zara's regime, after I read the work of Shulgin I thought no, I rather would be a counter-revolutionary party because I hate all this violence and pogroms that create Russian revolution. Basically, the Bolshevik regime that came to power after revolution and civil war become much more brutal and bloody, as it was Zarek's regime.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, wow. That is interesting to have such a blunt point of view that just says things how it is, without the lens of this or that side. Well, Dr Victoria, thank you so much for your time. I so appreciate this conversation and I hope the listeners learned something new today from listening to it as well.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much for your attention and thank you again for inviting me for this podcast.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to the Once we Dare podcast. It is an honor to share these encouraging stories with you. If you enjoy the show, I would love for listening to the ones who dare podcast. It is an honor to share these encouraging stories with you. If you enjoy the show, I would love for you to tell your friends. Leave us a reviewer rating and subscribe to wherever you listen to podcasts, because this helps others discover the show. You can find me on my website, speckhopoffcom. Thank you.