THE ONES WHO DARED
THE ONES WHO DARED PODCAST Elevating stories of courage. You can listen to some of the most interesting stories of courage, powerful life lessons, and aha moments. Featuring interviews with leaders, pioneers and people who have done hard things. I hope these stories help pave the path for you to live out your courageous life.
THE ONES WHO DARED
Leaving Amish Series: Mary Esh's Path to Freedom, Healing, and Self-Discovery
What would you do if leaving your community meant losing your family, your identity, and everything you’ve ever known? For those who step away from the Amish way of life, this choice is life-altering.
Mary Esh recounts her transformative journey from the Amish community, highlighting the struggles and complexities of traditional living. Her story emphasizes the importance of personal choice and courage in overcoming a restrictive upbringing.
Key Points:
- Definition of Amish life and core beliefs
- Trauma and dysfunction in Amish communities
- Rumspringa: myth versus reality
- Emotional impact of leaving the only way of life you know
- Family dynamics and faith's influence on decisions
- Discovering healing and empowerment outside the community
- Role of community in the healing process
- Ongoing self-discovery and taking charge of life
Mary's experience reveals the paradox of Amish life, where strict traditions coexist with a desire for freedom. She describes her mixed feelings about belonging, the oppressive culture, and her yearning for independence.
Her turning point came when her brother left the church, prompting her to question her beliefs. Leaving the Amish community was a gradual process, influenced by her conversations with God and her desire for freedom. Her travels broadened her perspective, revealing diverse cultures.
Mary's healing journey involved confronting trauma, seeking counseling, and finding solace in a supportive faith community. Her story illustrates the non-linear nature of healing and the resilience of the human spirit.
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And that's like the number one question I get when people find out that I grew up Amish. Like did you do the rumspringa? So I didn't do that and like anymore it's not portrayed as a choice at all. Like your parents expect you to stay Amish and while there are some youth when they turn 16, they'll join. Like there's a bunch of different groups and you decide which group that you want to be a part of and some of them do have like go out and they won't dress Amish anymore. They have vehicles, they party, like all the things. And then there's other groups that you know have rules.
Speaker 2:Hey friends, welcome to the Ones who Dare podcast, where stories of courage are elevated. I'm your host, becca, and every other week you'll hear interviews from inspiring people. My hope is that you will leave encouraged. I'm so glad you're here, mary Ash. Welcome to the Once a Dear podcast. I am so excited to have you in the studio today. Thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here and I am so just honored the fact that you're here to share your story and so, essentially, the series is about leaving Amish and you're someone who was once part of an Amish community and now you're no longer part of it. So we're going to kind of take a deep dive into what is Amish to people who have no idea, who may have never heard about the Amish community, and essentially, your story of what it was like to be living as an Amish child. How did you come about realizing it's not something you wanted to do the rest of your life and the whole process, which I'm sure was a journey. So, yeah, I'd love for you to start with what is Amish?
Speaker 1:What is Amish? Well, since I grew up in it, it's just normal to me. So I really need to step back. And what is that to an outsider? I think well, it's a way of life. Some would say it's a faith. They are a Bible-believing people. They claim that Jesus is the Son of God, but they hold very tightly to traditions. I could give a whole history lesson on where it originated.
Speaker 1:Most of the people came over from Germany and Switzerland in the 1700s and their goal was to flee from persecution persecution for their faith actually and they wanted just to live in peace and do their own thing. And somewhere along the line they became very traditional. They didn't want to lose the traditions of their forefathers and I don't think it was like. Even back in my grandpa's day and age, the difference between the like what we called English wasn't as stark as it is now, because back then, like they didn't I guess they didn't have cars yet Like all the Amish went with the English to public schools and even, like you know, back in the day, the women wore hats and things like that and the Amish just kept the head covering, for the women kept driving horses and buggies and they don't use like they don't believe in the modern conveniences of the world, because they want to.
Speaker 1:They want to live a simpler life and they believe it's worldly. And like it has, kind of, I would say, more. More has become like, more twisted, even where these things are a sin now, which back in the day I don't think it was so much that, but they I mean in order to to keep a people living that way, like need some, like there's some form of control that will be used, and that was that's where it became a sin. And like driving a car is a sin, for instance, and like we couldn't even drive bicycles and we had scooters was like a mode of transportation, and then horses and buggies, and if we needed, we would have hired a taxi to take us places that the horse and buggy couldn't take us or couldn't take us fast enough.
Speaker 2:So this is where I, as an outsider of the Amish community, am wondering the fact that you can't use that for yourself. Like you can't have a car, you can't use electricity yourself. Like you can't have a car, you can't use electricity, but you can hire out for somebody and you're still using that modern technology. So where it is like the line, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:I, I know what you mean but like when you're in it, it's just a lot of yeah, I don't even know, it's just a lot of control, like you're. I think a lot of people don't even think through that. More and more they are. There's a lot happening in the Amish community. There's a lot of people that have been leaving and like thinking those things through, but even like for my dad and mom, you know, you just do what you're told.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's kind of just continuing to live those traditions and there's a lot taught on leaving.
Speaker 1:I was told as a kid, if you leave, you go to hell.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:And I would say more is caught than taught, even. But it took years for me to realize that maybe God is okay with me leaving.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wow, yeah, and it's interesting too, because there is different types of Amish too. Right, there's different like orders, and some are stricter than others. So what order did you belong to or your family belonged to?
Speaker 1:It was old order Amish. We don't have any new order here, so it's either you're Amish or you're not. There's a lot of different strains of Mennonites that would have come from the Amish. Well, I guess originally the Amish came from the Mennonites. But a lot of Amish that leave might go to Mennonite churches. But you're either Amish or not.
Speaker 2:Okay, I gotcha and then. So for the viewers who don't know what Mennonite is, can you just describe the differences between those two?
Speaker 1:It's very similar in that they're Bible-believing, but they don't have as many rules. They're less conservative. The old order Mennonites would drive horses and buggies. Like the Amish, they have a little more modern conveniences. They do have electricity in their homes, which anymore a lot of Amish do too, and even like the women, little things like they can wear printed fabrics for their dresses.
Speaker 2:Or the Amish, can't? They have to have a solid print right and does it have to be certain colors as well?
Speaker 1:not necessarily. I mean. There's certain colors that are considered worldly like the bright and flashier light ones like a bright red dress, right yes, so yeah, I don't remember what your original question.
Speaker 2:was there Just kind of the differences for people who don't know, like, what is Mennonite? Yeah, I mean to an outsider.
Speaker 1:I think it's basically the same thing To the Amish and the Mennonite. Oh, those little differences are huge.
Speaker 2:You get to drive a bicycle?
Speaker 1:I don't. You're wearing a printed dress? I don't. And like even the sizes and shapes of coverings, like you know what groups they're part of, just by the shape covering that the women wear. That's so interesting yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So let's go to your story then. So what do you remember, like as early as going back to your childhood? What was your life like? Because, at the end of the day, every person, even with the same community, has a different experience. So I want to hear from your experience of what it was like for you specifically to grow up in that community and what was your day-to-day like Like? What do you remember about growing up and some of those early experiences being an Amish?
Speaker 1:some of those early experiences being an Amish, yeah. So I want to start by saying that I love how God redeems all things. So when I start my story by talking about trauma, I want you to remember that that's the best part. But yeah, I don't have great memories of being a child and of growing up. There was a lot of dysfunction in the home. There was sexual abuse all around me, and as a kid I didn't even know how, or I didn't ask for help. I didn't ask adults for help. I just learned to take care of myself and protect myself, and I remember as a seven or eight-year-old, when I was praying by my bedside, I prayed that I would wake up and be 17.
Speaker 2:And why do you think that is?
Speaker 1:I think I knew that I was little and powerless. I think I knew that I was little and powerless and and I it was about like being able to defend myself and creativity, and I just feel like I missed on a lot of that. But at the same time, like you know, I don't regret my story and, like I said, you know, god redeems all things and I've experienced so much healing from so much of that. So, yeah, from at age six I would have started school. The Amish have their own private one-room schools where grades one through eight will attend, and so I did school. I didn't love it. Learning was pretty easy for me, like I wasn't challenged, like I wish I would have been, but even even like eighth grade, I couldn't wait to be done and I thought I never said what like the cool thing for girls was to say that, like when I grew up, I'm going to be a teacher, like I didn't.
Speaker 2:I didn't want that and I didn't care to be like cool either.
Speaker 1:I didn't want to be a teacher, but at 18, I became a teacher. Wow, a teacher, but at 18, I became a teacher. I think I had seven grades my first year and 24 students and I taught for a total of around seven years then In the Amish community, right, right, amish and Mennonite Gotcha.
Speaker 2:So I'm going to just backtrack a little bit in what you said. You said that there was a lot of abuse and dysfunction, and this is something that I've heard previously too about the Amish community. Would you say that it's pretty common for there to be like sexual abuse within, like seeing other yeah happening to other?
Speaker 1:kids. It wasn't just necessarily like my life, my story. It was my friends, my cousins. Yeah, so my experience? Yes, Some would argue that, but I think most wouldn't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and why do you think that's more prevalent in that community? Most wouldn't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and why do you think that's more prevalent in that community? I think it has—this is my own thoughts on that—it definitely has—. I think, for some reason, sexual abuse often hides behind religion, like where there's control and fear already present, and it's not that hard for an abuser to control by fear or using tactics of fear. Because you see that in the Catholic community too, you see that in the Mennonite community, you see that in like the Catholic community too, you see that in the Mennonite community. I guess I don't fully understand that.
Speaker 2:but yeah, I mean, I think you're right in a sense, because if there's a way that you can hide behind something like religion and if you can use your dominance of authority and control, you're able to keep those people quiet, and if women and kids are already used to being dominated and controlled it's not like a foreign thing, yeah, and so at what point did you realize that?
Speaker 2:what age would you say that you realized that you no longer wanted to be Amish, or that you felt like this wasn't for you At the Once For A Year podcast? Giving back is part of our mission, which is why we proudly sponsor Midwest Food Bank. Here's why Midwest Food Bank Pennsylvania distributes over $25 million worth of food annually, completely free of charge, to over 200profit partners across PA, New York and New Jersey, reaching more than 330,000 people in need. Through their volunteer-driven model and innovative food rescue programs, they turn every single dollar donated into $30 worth of food. Now, that's amazing. Join us in supporting this cause To learn more or to give go to MidwestFoodBankorg slash Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1:I remember the first time I had thoughts of it was at 15. It could have been before that, but then it was more just like wishful thinking. Because way beyond that in my 20s, like a couple years before I left at age 26, I still didn't think that it's possible for me to ever leave for one, and that God—I was still conditioned to believe that God wants me Amish And— yeah, it wasn't until a couple of years before I left that I actually realized that, wait, these thoughts keep coming up, which, looking back, I think it was Holy Spirit, but I was just resisting them or feeling like I shouldn't be thinking these thoughts, and I finally realized wait, even if God doesn't like that, I'm thinking this. This is a real struggle for me, so let me talk to God about it. And it didn't take long, once I started talking to God about it, that my eyes were opened and I realized that just a lot of things became clear to me that I wasn't aware of, even though there's a lot of things that I did know. The truth in that one thing just took a long time to actually flip and I was able to see Can I share one thing?
Speaker 1:I had this vision at age 20 or 21 of me, where I was in a convertible. God was at the wheel, I was in the passenger seat, my feet were on the dash, I was leaning back and just laughing. I love speed, I love wind in my face, roller coasters skydiving, that kind of thing, and so I was just having the time of my life and it was a wild ride. My hair was blowing in the wind and, yeah, so soon it was over and God asked me do you trust me? Like that, I was so free, I was so knowing that God's got me. God is at the wheel and that one just keeps coming back to me.
Speaker 1:Ever since it's been over 10 years and it's just always like can I trust God like that? Be that free and know that he is? That much has got me. But what's ironic. What I wanted to point out is this was way before I considered leaving. And why did I and you were, how old at this dream 20 or 21. Ok, why did I not question God in the fact that? Because I believed this vision was from God. Why did I not question the fact that we were in a car? Cars are a sin, right? Yeah, and my hair was down Like that's not OK.
Speaker 2:Right, it was so funny and never thought like, even you know right, even worldly, yeah but this.
Speaker 1:I never thought about it until like years after I left that way. Why did I not question god on that?
Speaker 2:wow, that's interesting, and do you think that you not thinking that there's an outside possibility that exists for you has anything to do with that? You haven't seen that example modeled. Were there not people within your community that were leaving? Um, what was your experience like with that? With just like the outsiders? And it seems like you didn't have hope. That is possible for you, and I just kind of want to dive into why that would be a reality for you yeah, that's a great question.
Speaker 1:Because my brother had left about five years before I did and I did in the mentality that I need to take care of myself. I didn't think to ask for help, I didn't think to reach out and ask even questions. I had so many questions as a kid and I did ask some questions, to the point that I was told not to read the Bible so much. But then I knew that there's a limit of how far I can go. But yeah, I think it's just that I didn't know how to ask for help because there would have been that there.
Speaker 1:And so when your brother left, did you have any communication with him or was he excommunicated from your family? He was excommunicated in a sense, like I think the true definition of excommunication is you don't communicate with them, right, and they're like shunned completely. So like we would use those terms there. We would use the term shunned, but you can still talk to people. So basically when he left he had been a member. So if you're not a member, you're not excommunicated.
Speaker 1:But since he had been a member of the church which, if you don't mind, I'll just back up and give a backstory on that he had been having a really hard time with life and some things and I was concerned for him and I prayed for him a ton that summer that he would, yeah, just that God would help him, and I knew that like he would find freedom in Jesus.
Speaker 1:But I didn't think that he would leave the Amish in the process, because he did find Jesus. He totally became a different person, became free. But then he left the Amish and that was a moment that I realized that something is not right, because the community didn't seem to care when he was struggling. And now that he is free and found Jesus, they're saying he's going to hell and I knew that God answered my prayers. I knew without a shadow of a doubt that God answered my prayers and so that was when, like I said, I realized something is off, because God answered my prayers and they're saying he's going to hell, so he never. He always stayed with living with my parents until he got married years later.
Speaker 2:So in that way, like so he left the community, left the church.
Speaker 1:I guess he didn't technically leave the community, he left the church and because of that the church has this whole procedure, like they ask you to come back to church and then, if you don't, they decide to ban you and shun you. And what is the shunning process like? Yeah, it's not like you might think it is. That's what I'm asking. Yeah, I think it was meant to be more strict than it is right now, but right now the main thing is that you can't eat at the same table as your family, as any member of the Amish. So if you're invited to an Amish wedding, they'll set you at a different table. Some people joke and say it's the sinner's table, but that's not true. And then also, you can't take things off of their hand. So if I would hand something to somebody who's Amish, they're not allowed to take it off of my hand. So you couldn't give a letter, for example.
Speaker 2:Right or even money at a store.
Speaker 1:There's some stores that will ask you to put the money on the counter and then they'll pick it up Interesting. So it's that, and they can't drive with you in the vehicle. I think those are the main things. Okay, and those are the main things.
Speaker 2:Okay, and those are the things that apply to your brother specifically.
Speaker 1:Right, okay, and he would eat at a separate table for years. I left five years after him. For a couple years we didn't eat at the same table as my family. But today there's no shunning. My family doesn't shun me at all.
Speaker 2:Today there's no shunning my family doesn't shun me at all and so he had to eat at a separate dining table while your family dined together. Okay, yeah, and I have heard that before. There's another guy that I've talked to who was ex-Amish, and he still, when he goes to visit his family, he still has to sit at the separate table, which is interesting In a way. They're welcoming him back to the house, but yet they're making an obvious physical separation that you're not with us. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And there is a lot of that where parents might be okay, like the parents still love the child and accept and welcome the child or their son or daughter, but they feel obligated not to Like. For my parents, if the church would find out that we're eating at the same table, that they're not shunning us, they could get shunned for that. So they're just doing their duty, like a lot of them would would say I'm just doing what I need to do. I don't want to do this. My grandpa already told me that.
Speaker 1:I want to offer to give him a ride somewhere, and now he's going to say no and he's like you know I would but I can't. And then there's also parents that I have, friends who left, and they're basically disowned from their family. They can't even come back on the property, but that is more just coming out of their own place. That's not really because of the church that they're doing that it's almost like they're rejecting because the person left and it's a big point of contention in the Amish community right now.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of people that are actually stepping up, speaking up and saying this is not okay, that we're doing this.
Speaker 2:That we're shunning and creating a separation if they leave. Right, okay, right, yeah, that's a thing called when you were 18, what is that thing? Rumspringa, yes, so did you go through that? Or is that designated for males, only females? Can you tell us more about that and why that exists?
Speaker 1:Right, it starts at age 16 for male and female. It's a term that we would have used like we're now in the age of Rumspringa, but in this day and age it looks differently than it used to and I think what the outside world reads about and knows about it is what it used to be. And that is when you turn 16, your parents let you sow your wild oats, you get to go out and experience the world and party and drive vehicles and whatever. Get that out of your system. And then you get to decide, decide do I want to go back to the Amish or not? That's what it's portrayed at in like all the Amish books and that's like the number one question I get when people find out that I grew up Amish. Like did you do the rumspringa? So I didn't. I didn't do that and like anymore don't.
Speaker 1:It's not portrayed as a choice at all. Like your parents expect you to stay Amish and while there are some youth, when they turn 16, they'll join. Like you decide there's a bunch of different groups and you decide which group that you want to be a part of. And some of them do have like go out and they won't dress Amish anymore. They have vehicles, they party, like all the things. And then there's other groups that you know have rules and things like that. So I went to a group that had rules and so I was a good girl, I didn't go out and party and do all the things, but did your parents give you the option?
Speaker 2:like you can go and party, you can go and do these things if you choose to Like. This is your time, or was that not? No, no, okay, and that's probably why you chose to be with a good crowd, right, or does it?
Speaker 1:not. I mean it's like where were my siblings and my cousins and my friends? Yeah, kind of followed that path.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:And I don't have a desire to go out and party, but I didn't really have connections to even do that, if I would have wanted to yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's interesting. So you're saying that within your experience it's portrayed like you have these years to explore, figure out what you want to do, if you want to stay or you want to leave. But from your experience it wasn't really encouraged and that wasn't the case, Right?
Speaker 1:I love God's gift of free will and choice and that is one thing that even when I was there, that was really hard for me. For example, when I got baptized, I didn't feel like it was my choice and that just upset me to the core. Well, I could give that story when I struggled with it the entire summer long, because it's not that I didn't want to follow Jesus. I did want Jesus, but I wanted it to be my own choice. And also it wasn't really just about oh, you're making a choice for the Lord, it was like you're making a choice to be Amish, and it just bugged me to no end that this I didn't know how to make it my choice if it was already decided for me.
Speaker 1:And up until the day before the baptism, because it's like a whole process summer long process up until the day before the baptism. Because it's like a whole process, summer long process up until the day before the baptism, and they present it to you as like this is your choice, but at the same time, what do you do if you don't want it? I didn't feel like I had a voice. I didn't have the courage to speak up Up until the day before. I was just like I should talk to my dad or I should talk to my grandpa. My grandpa was a deacon in the church and was like very involved, but I think I didn't know how to handle the—like. I was afraid of the response, the drama it would cause if people would find out. And then I was pretty confident that they would convince me to do it anyway, like there's no way out. So I yeah, I remember the moment of like resigning to it. Okay, I'm just gonna go through with it. And I did yeah and.
Speaker 1:But I wish, like back to the room, spring a thing. I wish not that youth could go out and party, and, like you know, so they're wild oats, but I wish it would be presented to everybody as a choice.
Speaker 2:And did you witness that being presented to other people perhaps not your family, but outside of your family, within your community or no, never. But you said some people did join those groups where they were partying, but it was still not right courage to leave that could have been a choice given to them by their parents, like their parents were okay with them doing that.
Speaker 1:some might not have been, but I think even in those groups your parents wanted you to stay Amish. Granted, there were some parents that did help their kids leave before they ever joined the church. So maybe I shouldn't say that's across the board. That is not across the board, but by far the majority of the parents wanted them to stay Amish.
Speaker 2:Was there a point in your life that you realized that you no longer wanted to be Amish? Was it a gradual intensification or was there a particular moment that you felt like this isn't for me and I have to leave?
Speaker 1:Right, and there was both. It was gradual and I had that one moment and, like I said, I thought about it at 15. It kept coming up throughout the years and then in my search for for truth, and like seeing that, like when my brother left the Amish, like that's not okay and realizing I don't really want to be a part of of this, like I hated the separation, like that's not how it's going to be in heaven, and like I was convinced like God didn't like it either and it's like I don't want to be a part of that. But because I still thought that God wants me Amish, I just prayed for change in where I was and I wanted to experience the Holy Spirit that Acts experienced in the Bible and I prayed for that. And I wanted those experience, the Holy Spirit that Acts experienced in the Bible, and I prayed for that and I wanted those things to change. As far as that, you don't, you know, shun somebody that leaves and is still a Christian. But yeah, I think I already shared how you know, I had this moment where I realized, oh, I can talk to God about it and, like, once I started having the conversations with God, it didn't take very long to realize that you know what I don't think. I think what God has for me is way beyond what you know is in this little box, but I still didn't know what, you know how that would be possible. Like it looked way beyond my reach. I didn't know how to do it. I didn't know even who to talk to. Like a lot of that process was just by myself Because, like, even some of my friends like got very defensive if I would bring up things like that and my family, you know, wasn't in favor of it either.
Speaker 2:So did you have these conversations with your family that you were considering leaving? How did you know they were not in favor?
Speaker 1:I mean, I just knew that I did have conversations with different of my siblings and then I did with my parents, like a couple months before I left. It was before we had our uh, communion. We had communion every spring and every fall and like with communion you kind of agree to like all the church, like with being Amish, kind of thing so like you were continuing to kind of rededicate yourself to the church the rules.
Speaker 2:Is that what you mean?
Speaker 1:Yes, ok, and I didn't want to do that again. So I had the conversation with my parents and they convinced me to go along with it one more time. They were really nice in that conversation. I don't think they were totally surprised Because I think there were enough of signs Like mom was concerned about the books I was reading and things like that. And then I yeah, so I did go along with communion that fall and then I became very depressed.
Speaker 1:I felt I dealt with depression a lot of my younger years but I just became very depressed and very. I felt suppressed because I felt like I didn't have a voice. Whenever I would speak up, it was either shut down or not received and I felt oppressed and trapped. And it was just another moment where I was like God, like you need to make a way and like also, you know, joseph was in prison and God could, like he could have been there the rest of his life and God made a way out. And that was kind of like God, you can do that for me too.
Speaker 1:And yeah, it is pretty crazy that I didn't just talk to my brother and ask him to help me out, like my brother knew that I was. You know what I was kind of going through, but I think he also had. He definitely knew, but he also had the pressure of you know, he was still living at home with my parents and if he, if he like, helps his siblings leave or or is an influence in that way like there's trouble for him, um, and so he left, but he was living with the family in.
Speaker 2:Just to kind of get a better picture of what that meant, was he working outside the home, was he using the modern technology but not bringing it back in the property? So his lifestyle was different, but he was still living in the properties, that which you're referring to.
Speaker 1:So he left the Amish way of living, I guess. So he got a truck or a car, a vehicle and he wouldn't dress Amish anymore. He went to a different church. Basically he could, like he was on his own. There were some things he couldn't bring into the home, like you said, but he wasn't Amish anymore.
Speaker 2:But was, and he would come back into the home, say, dressed in more modern clothes, right?
Speaker 1:Right, I think at first he wasn't really allowed to and then, yeah, eventually they got used to it, Like at first he wasn't allowed to park the vehicle on the property and then that you know kind of wore off and different things like that.
Speaker 2:I got you. So, going back to your story, though, so you're saying, even though your brother left you, he would have had the pressure of not being that bad influence. So how did you start to, you know, essentially work towards leaving?
Speaker 1:And I there was okay. So the last thing that held me back was the fear of disappointing my parents. I knew that the Bible says honor your father and mother and obey your parents in all things. And I desperately wanted to like, believe the whole Bible and obey it in its entirety, but I didn't know what to do with those verses and I also knew those verses will be used against me if I do leave. And I didn't know what to do with those verses and I also knew those verses will be used against me if I do leave. And I didn't know what to do with that.
Speaker 1:And then I had this moment where God asked me if my allegiance is to Him first, and I was like, ok, like that was the moment I knew I'm leaving. I knew that, ok, I will bear the consequences of disappointing my parents to follow him. And, yeah, that was the moment I knew I'm leaving. But I still didn't know how or what to do or where. Even job-wise, I would have had to find a different job. Everything would change. What church would I go to? I had no idea.
Speaker 1:And then that was when I cried out to God to make a way and things just kind of landed in my lap. We had because I was depressed my parents set up for me to meet with a counselor and then we had a second meeting where they were involved, which that was none of my doing, but it was an opportunity for me to share my heart with my parents. That I couldn't have done had the counselor not been there to ask all the questions and give me the floor. So it was very beautiful for me and how God made a way for that, but it was also heart-wrenching because my parents were just devastated.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so this counselor? Was it outside the Amish community? Right, okay, but your parents were willing to go get the help for you, even though it's outside the community. Is it because he was Mennonite? Okay, gotcha.
Speaker 1:Which might've helped but yeah.
Speaker 2:So within that, you were sharing your heart and they knew that part of the cause was that you were felt, feeling like you had no choice, right, like you felt oppressed, like you felt suppressed. You're saying they knew that. I'm saying through the process, right, is that what was revealed to your parents from your depression through the counselor?
Speaker 1:right that, yeah, they pretty soon found out. You know where I'm at and that, um, I don't want to like. Basically, like I told them, I feel like God's calling me out and that I'm leaving and what was their reaction?
Speaker 1:I mean they were just, they were devastated, like they didn't. Their reaction in that room was like I think they were just quiet, they didn't, you know, react. Really. It was more afterwards that it was very dramatic leaving. I'll just say that. Very dramatic, um, and then, yeah, I I do remember my brother had been talking to me about going to Uganda.
Speaker 1:He had been to Uganda several times and he's like you'd love, love it, you should go. And I knew I wanted to go. So then, after I talked to my parents, I'm like okay, I told him I'm leaving. So I like, with that, told my like my brother helped me get my passport and all the things and I that was the first time I didn't dress Amish, the first time, like I don't dress Amish the first time. I don't know what I was thinking, but I got on a plane all by myself and flew to Belgium. I'd never flown before, we weren't allowed to fly, but I flew to Belgium all by myself where I met the rest of the team which I'd never met these people before, spent the two weeks with them in Uganda, and that was that. I wasn't Amish anymore. But then I, after that I came back and I moved out from my parents home, which they didn't. It's not like they asked me to.
Speaker 1:They did want me to stay, but I just knew I couldn't yeah um, so I moved out from home and then a couple months later, like a month and a half later, I went Thailand. I lived in Thailand for six months, so that was definitely one thing that you know. When I left, I wanted to do is travel and see the world and yeah.
Speaker 2:And how did you know that, like, an outside world existed, that you wanted to travel, like, where did you get those thoughts and ideas? From Right books.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I read a lot of books that definitely opened up the world to me and I loved reading stories of like. I love how you do your podcasts of stories and that's what I loved about books is like hearing people's stories and like how people left Mormonism and how people left the Muslim faith and, yeah, I was just enamored with stories and it was definitely through books, and were those the books that you said your parents were concerned about you reading?
Speaker 1:Maybe not the stories, but whatever other books on faith or whatever I was reading. But I also had traveled. So I went to Mexico at age 20 and 21 to teach English to a conservative Mennonite community down there. I know that was huge too. We weren't allowed to fly, we took the train. It was like a three-day trek to Mexico, oh wow. And then we got to see another culture that was similar to ours and I got to see the similarities and I don't know, my eyes were just open and we got to see the Mexican culture and like the Indians there and things like that. So that also opened up the world.
Speaker 2:Wow, so wow. That was quite a brave thing for you to do, besides leaving but then also just going hardcore and booking that trip, getting on the plane by yourself, meeting strangers and then going to a whole foreign country together. That's totally opposite of what your life looked like.
Speaker 1:Believe me I was not prepared for it.
Speaker 2:What was that experience like for you there, Like what were some of your first impressions, some things that maybe shocked you culturally or socially.
Speaker 1:To be honest, the biggest one was the. Have you been to africa?
Speaker 1:I have not like the spiritual realm there is. I would say I was always sensitive to the spiritual realm. I was not prepared for that. Like there's a lot of of witchcraft and and things and like I, I experienced it and I was not prepared for it. And there again, I didn't know how to invite, like the leaders into my process and ask questions and ask for help. It's like, oh, I got to take care of myself, but it was good and it was also really hard. But the good parts like I loved the African culture. I loved the, the churches there, their worship, their dance, and like the kids, I loved, um, just the joy. Like a lot of these kids lived in so much poverty and yet they were so happy and so joyful. And I'm like, what are we like doing over in America? Like we're not even grateful and we have all these things. Yeah, but no, I definitely fell in love with African culture.
Speaker 2:And so, upon leaving the Amish community, did you have a process where you were able to kind of unravel and heal and unpack some of that of things that you've been through in order to get to where you are today? Or what was that like for you to kind of journey from what was before to where you are now?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a great question. I'm still in process, definitely still in process. But when I went to Thailand a couple months after I left, was there for six months, that was huge in that I had space and distance from all the drama that had been going on and just being able to process a lot of the consequences of my choices and what I want to do with my life and stuff and what I want to do with my life and stuff. And then I found a church after I got back. That was a big part of that process. There was so much.
Speaker 1:I was so shut down in a sense they would just speak truth over me and stuff would just break off, like, for instance, the one day one person looked at me and she was like Mary, it's okay for you to be beautiful and like it's it's hard to explain but like you weren't, beauty was not celebrated and you weren't really allowed to be beautiful not that it was said in those words, but I got picked on at church for how I did my hair and my dress and things like that, and it wasn't anything that I was trying to be rebellious in or anything. So it was very confusing for me and I remember looking in the mirror. Not that I thought I was beautiful, but I looked in the mirror and I was intentionally trying to make my hair look ugly so that I don't get grief at church.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:And yeah, so beauty wasn't celebrated and there was a lot of. I don't even know if I can articulate it, but it had to do with being proud. You can't be proud, you can't be beautiful. You can't be beautiful, you can't celebrate your beauty. So in that moment I realized that, wait, beauty, god-designed beauty, that's a gift. It's like beauty's beautiful.
Speaker 2:It's beautiful, and may I say you are beautiful.
Speaker 1:Oh, thanks, yeah, and may I say you are beautiful oh thanks yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So the church community definitely was very, very huge in speaking truth over me and believing in me when I didn't believe in myself and calling things out of me. And I did get baptized again by my choice and it was the best day of my life. And so there was that. And then in 2020, I actually hit an all-time low. Basically, my life on the outside was perfect. I loved my job, I was in school, I loved studying, I loved I had a great friend group.
Speaker 1:I had a great relationship with my family at the time, but I couldn't figure out why all this stuff is coming up from my past. So I think that's just the nature of like how that works. You get to a safe place and then, like, the trauma of your past comes up. It was that, and also I became like suicidal. I don't know how the two tie together, but I was dealing with a lot of insomnia, which that in itself can drive you crazy pretty fast. I couldn't sleep at night and then I was just so tormented with voices and things and I just wanted to escape that and die and I ended up in the hospital and then in intensive counseling and the best part of the story, like God did deliver me from that depression and I, yeah, I was totally healed and delivered in a moment, like the voices, like I suddenly had space to think my own thoughts.
Speaker 1:The depression left the, I could sleep again and I got off all my meds that I had been on like for that short time, but like it was still an onward journey from there or an upward journey from there, but I had like an instantaneous breakthrough moment. That was very significant and I have a lot of compassion for people who are oppressed or deal with oppression and I also know that healing is available for everyone and God's heart for them is not to be tormented. But with that I had to deal with a lot of things from my past and I think also as a kid I remember praying countless times to die. So some of that stuff even inner vows or whatever kind of had to come up and out. So that was a significant year and looking back, it was a really hard year. But what I remember is how God covered me and protected me and he led me into victory in all of it.
Speaker 1:I don't look back, and I look back and see God's goodness for sure.
Speaker 2:After that moment of you being in intensive care, did you walk through a counseling process to help you deal with some of those childhood trauma and just some of those traumatic things that happened to you, whether it was within the Amish community or after the fact?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I meant intensive counseling, Like I went after the hospital, I went into like I think I was there for a month at a place in North Carolina, stayed there for a month, got counseling every day well, like five days a week, so that I don't know that. I want to get into that. That was actually a really hard season for me. I think a lot of what I got out of that was just in how God met me in that really hard place and it was there that I got my healing and my deliverance.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah healing and my deliverance. Yeah, yeah, so I would. I would still say that you know, it's still like. The last eight years have been a process of, you know, being developed in the dark room and, and like you know, being healed and like being prepared for what God has for me in the future.
Speaker 2:Well, I love Dr Edith Eager and she talks about how time doesn't heal. It's what we do with that time, right, wow? And that essentially says healing is possible when we choose to take responsibility, choose to take risks and, finally, we choose to release the wound and let go of our past and the grief.
Speaker 1:Yes, that is so good. And the grief yes, that is so good. Taking responsibility yeah, that's one huge thing that I had to learn. That and I think I was going to share about that. When you asked me the question of the best advice that I was given, which I can go into it now or I can save it for then.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can go for it.
Speaker 1:Well, I definitely. It was huge for me to learn to take responsibility for my own actions in life. Basically, I think there's something about growing up in a religious, controlled environment that breeds a powerless mentality. So if everybody else makes all the decisions for you and decides things for you, then when things go wrong it's like oh, I was. You know you're not really accountable for it, that you can decide for yourself what to do with your life and you don't know that you can say yes and you can say no, and you don't know that another person doesn't like you don't have to let another person decide all these things for you. I don't know if that makes sense, but that was definitely huge for me, like letting go of that or like learning that I'm a powerful person and that the powerless mentality you know doesn't need to be my story.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's really good. That's really good. And she also talks about how victimhood is optional. That suffering is not. We all in this world suffer to some degree and our suffering may look different, but essentially we get to choose what we do with it. Right, Right, the things that happen to us aren't always our fault. The families we're born into, the countries we're born into, how we're raised all those things is not choices that we make, but then, as adults, we get to choose. How do we want to go from here?
Speaker 1:And there's so much freedom in that, when you realize that you're not at the mercy of other people, when you realize that you can take control to some degree, like can take control of you, can take ownership of your own life, yeah, and like no one gets to ruin your day for you, like, yes, you um even with like all the things, the drama and leaving, like the things that were spoken over me, um, like I don't, like it's up to me how I respond to that. That's actually my responsibility, and what they say and what they do, that's not on me.
Speaker 1:I don't have to take that upon myself, but I am responsible for how I respond. Not that it doesn't hurt the pain is valid but there's so much freedom and knowing that you know you don't have to give another person that, that, um, space, or that I don't know what the word is in your life. You don't give them the power the power, yes. You don't give them that power to ruin your life, or yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or take rental space in your mind right, Because there you go.
Speaker 1:And I think too, another aspect of that is forgiveness, like the freedom that if you don't, if you can't forgive them, then like the only person who suffers is yourself, and like you have the power and the freedom and the choice to do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's beautiful. So you and your family are in contact now, right, do you see them? You guys are reconciled, would you say 100%?
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure, I love my family. I was actually in ministry school for the last three years. I just got back in May, or moved back in May, so it's like the joy of my life is my family. I'm always welcoming my parents, I have a great relationship with my parents and there's like no shunning at all from my parents or my siblings for that matter, but, no, I adore my family. There's still a lot of things that we haven't, you know, talked about, but there's a mutual love for each other and, yeah, I think my siblings have always been exceptional in how we always rooted for each other and were for each other.
Speaker 1:So, no matter what choices you make, yeah, it was hard in the beginning, because it was, I understand. It was very confusing for them and it put them on the spot of. Now other people in the community are looking at them like are you stable, are you solid? You know, are you going to be the next to leave? Right? And, like some of them were in dating relationships and that's a big deal for you know the other person's family.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and so is the rest of your family still Amish, besides you and your brother.
Speaker 1:No, actually only my parents, and my one brother and his family are so my two sisters. I have four brothers and two sisters. My two sisters left it's not last year anymore, a couple years ago and three of my brothers wouldn't be Amish anymore.
Speaker 2:Okay, wow, well, you're so brave for sharing your story. It really is. I mean, the show is called the Ones who Dared right and you dared to leave something that you were really familiar with, something that was all you knew, and you questioned it and you made the bold choice of stepping out, leaving and then working really hard on your own healing journey. And you know, and really I believe that kind of never ends. You know it's a process, right, and I feel like we're we're always refining and getting better. But essentially, I think on this side of heaven, you know things aren't perfect, so for sure you know. But I'm just so proud of you for sharing your story, for being here, but also for taking ownership of your story and your healing, your responsibility, which is incredible, and you already shared one of the last questions about best advice. I'm curious to know, besides the things we talked about, what is one of the bravest things you've done, besides going to another country on your own and leaving the Amish community, which those are all really, really big things?
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I always say that the hardest thing I ever did was leave the Amish. Therefore, I think that is the bravest thing I ever did. Besides that I guess I didn't really come up with an answer Like I feel like I've done brave things. I think just like forging my own path, like going to school if you know, I wanted to go to school, go to college, do the things that were available for me to do. That I didn't necessarily have Even going to school, getting my GED and then going to college. I had no idea what I was doing, but going after it anyway because I could.
Speaker 2:And the thing is, mary, is that most people don't know what they're doing. They just do it, and then they learn along the way which is the best way to go about it. Sometimes you just go for it.
Speaker 1:You have the desire, you just go for it, but you still are around people who are doing it and have done it and know the language of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's true For most people. Are you friends with people outside of your community now? Or I should say, are you friends with people who were ex-Amish? Is there a community of kind of people who are together, that are For?
Speaker 1:sure. Yeah, the church. Some of my close friends are ex-Amish, and then the church that I'm currently attending is mostly ex-Amish or ex-Mennonite. Yeah, there's quite a community by now, for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what would you say were pivotal books that have transformed your life?
Speaker 1:Yeah, like I said, I've read a lot of books and they have transformed my life. I don't mean to be cliche, but like the Bible definitely, to be honest, was the most transformative book I ever read. And, like, even when people used it against me or twisted it or used it to manipulate me, I didn't, I like, didn't miraculously, didn't run from it, I just delved in deeper because I knew the truth is there, I knew it's there. My prayer over and over was God. I want to know the truth as it is, not as we think it is, which I think is a CS Lewis quote, because I was just desperate for truth. Like, even when you know it, just it looked, it felt so clouded, like I didn't, but I was so hungry for it.
Speaker 1:And Bill Johnson also says that the Bible is the only book where the author shows up when you read it. I love that. The Bible is the only book where the author shows up when you read it. I love that. So that, and then, besides that, I love Chris Vallotton's book, the Supernatural Ways of Royalty. It's discovering the rights and privileges of being a daughter or son of God. That was huge in understanding your inheritance in God and what it means to have heaven on your side and that it doesn't limit you. It like you gain so much by it. It's not as some people think. Oh, if I believe in God, then that limits me to this little life. You actually get so much. Your life expands and you have so much more available to you. That, and speaking of taking ownership of your life, danny Silk's books Keep your Love On the Culture of honor His books were transformative as well.
Speaker 2:Beautiful. Well, you're so courageous, mary, and beautiful We'll just add that in there. So thank you so much for coming in here and sharing your story. I know it's going to touch people and you're really brave.
Speaker 1:Thank you and thanks for the opportunity. This was fun.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening to the ones who dare podcast. It is an honor to share these encouraging stories with you. If you enjoy the show, I would love for you to tell your friends. Leave us a reviewer rating and subscribe to wherever you listen to podcasts, because this helps others discover the show. You can find me on my website, speckhopoffcom.