THE ONES WHO DARED
THE ONES WHO DARED PODCAST Elevating stories of courage. You can listen to some of the most interesting stories of courage, powerful life lessons, and aha moments. Featuring interviews with leaders, pioneers and people who have done hard things. I hope these stories help pave the path for you to live out your courageous life.
THE ONES WHO DARED
Leaving Amish Series: Mary Ann Stoltzfus on Rebuilding Identity, Finding Purpose & Becoming a Doula
Mary Ann Stoltzfus shares her experience from the strict confines of the Amish community to rediscovering a new way of living life. She discusses the challenges of questioning her upbringing, leaving her community, and building a new life centered around authenticity and community.
• Childhood experiences of the Amish upbringing
• Early spiritual questions and navigating fears around salvation
• The courageous decision to leave the Amish community
• Challenges faced in redefining faith and identity
• Transitioning to being a doula and supporting other women
• Rebuilding community connections after leaving
• Advice for those contemplating leaving restrictive environments
Mary Ann Stoltzfus is a wife, mother of seven, grandmother, and the founder of Three Strands.
With a holistic approach, Three Strands provides support before, during, and after birth—offering care, wisdom, and guidance to help mothers feel confident and nurtured every step of the way.
Currently, Mary Ann is embracing life to the fullest, cherishing time with her family and dedicating Fridays to "Nana Day," a special tradition filled with love and memories for her grandchildren.
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figuring out our way, because now you're outside of the safety net that you've always lived in and it was freedom. But that freedom was scary. Where did we actually want to go to church? How do we actually want to dress? What are we? What kind of car do we want? Where do we want to live? Everything had always been mapped out for us.
Speaker 2:Hey friends, welcome to the Ones who Dared podcast, where stories of courage are elevated. Where do we want to live? Everything had always been mapped out for us. Hey friends, welcome to the Ones who Dared podcast, where stories of courage are elevated. I'm your host, Becca, and every other week you'll hear interviews from inspiring people. My hope is that you will leave encouraged. I'm so glad you're here. Mary Ann Stoltzfus, welcome to the Once a Deer podcast.
Speaker 1:Thank you, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:I am so excited to have you on here. You came highly recommended through different people and Sarah recommended me to you and Sarah recommended me to you, and so I'm excited for you to share your story, your experience on what it was like for you to grow up Amish, and also how you come about realizing it wasn't something you wanted to do or be the rest of your life, and where you are today. So, wow, that's a big one. So let's start by what was it like for you growing up Amish.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I was the youngest of eight, eight children. I have seven siblings. Obviously it's very sheltered, but we, like I, grew up on a farm. My mom died when I was seven.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow.
Speaker 1:And I was the youngest, right. So. And then my dad remarried a year later. So I grew up with a step-mom Um, what was it like? I mean, we went to one room schoolhouse, walked to school every day to and from um. If the weather was really too bad, they you know my somebody would pick us up in the in the horse and buggy, but most times we walked a mile and a half every morning and evening and I had cousins that lived real close to so we would walk together. I mean, it was growing up.
Speaker 1:Amish is a good life, like it's, um, very family oriented, like it's good. But at a young age I started really having questions, at a really. I remember, like at 10, starting to really have questions if this is the way, because we were always taught that being Amish and doing good is what's going to get you to heaven, right. But so at a really young age I started questioning if that was actually true. And I remember clearly I think I must have been 10, because at 12, when I was 12, we moved off the farm because my dad retired, and I remember where I was standing at the age of 10, and saying I'm going to have to figure this out it's. I don't know that I can actually trust that my dad is telling me the truth about if this is actually the way to serve god. So I'm just got to figure it out on my own.
Speaker 1:Wow, at the age of 10. At the age of 10, I must have been like it had to be 10 or 11, definitely not 12, because we moved off the farm, because I remember where I was standing and it was at the farm, so I would have had to be definitely like 11 or under. So I'm assuming it was like, when I think about that, I think of it as being 10 or 11. And then just being like okay, I'm going to have to figure this out kind of on my own. But obviously time went on and I still stayed. You know, I stayed, stayed true to um, where I was, and and and then joined the church when I was 17 I think, got baptized in the amish church and then, um, I didn't get married till I was 23 and it was after that when we actually, when we left, then my husband and I, together with our three children.
Speaker 2:So between the time of you being 10 and having that thought process of like I don't know if this is the way, um, what were some of the things that you were questioning? Or what, how is it unraveling for you? I?
Speaker 1:just really questioned if, because I read a lot too, I would read a lot of books, obviously wouldn't have tv. So I did read a lot of books and I also had siblings that were older than I am obviously because I'm the youngest and they some of them had left the Amish as well and I knew in part what they would like, kind of sharing their story. As a little girl I would hear that in part. So I know that that played a big. That probably put a big question in me at a really young age. Okay, what is true? I'm hearing this from some of my siblings and I'm hearing this and it was like opposite, yeah that's interesting.
Speaker 1:The opposite would have been my siblings saying we got saved and we know that we're going to heaven, where I was being taught that nobody knows that If we say that we know, we're actually prideful, because you can't know that until judgment day, only God is the judge if you have done enough of good or not. And that baffled me so much. Like what if I die at a young age and don't live long enough to do enough of good works? And how many good works do I actually have to do to be good enough to go to heaven? Like those things? That's all the things that I would think about a lot.
Speaker 2:And was going to hell, a fear growing up.
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely, absolutely, because we would hear about hell and it would you know. But the only way to not go there was to do enough of good works, and that was obeying your parents and living out all the rules and the traditions of the Amish. And if I would ask questions, I would be told I don't know, like if I would ask why did we do it this way?
Speaker 1:I was told, because that's just how we've always done it. So don't question, just do what we, what we tell you to do, and it's just the way it's always been done. So you can't, you're not supposed to question.
Speaker 2:That's what I was told, and what were some of the things that didn't make sense to you as a kid? On some of the rules.
Speaker 1:Some of the rules would be like why is it okay for us to drive in a car, but not okay to own a car?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's one.
Speaker 1:I think about too. And why do we have to wear these certain clothes? Like? I knew better to not ask those things out loud and most of my questions I really did not ask out loud because I knew better. I knew that I would not. It would come with a lot of disapproval if I would ask. But in my head a lot of the questions were how does this make sense? Like we do, like just the way we dressed, like is this actually what's going to take us to heaven? What about Jesus? Because I also knew about Jesus. And where does he? What does he play part? Like, where does he come up in all this, like you know.
Speaker 1:And then I'm hearing, you know, my siblings talking about Jesus and talking about, I mean, and they're going to a church outside of the Amish. That I thought probably spoke more truth because I could understand what they were saying In the Amish church I couldn't even understand what was being said because it was high German and I didn't understand high German. But when my siblings talked, it made sense to me. But then I was told well, they're going to hell because they left the Amish. Wow, and being afraid of hell.
Speaker 2:that, of course, was likeper, you know, it was just like so confusing, so confusing yeah, and you mentioned earlier before we started recording is that German was your, your first language.
Speaker 1:Pennsylvania Dutch, which is a dialect. It's not a written language, it's just a dialect. So but we learned high german in school. So when we started school we usually would not know we would only speak pennsylvania dutch until we started school, and then we learned english in school and our language in school was english, always english, but home it was always pennsylvania dutch. But then in school, like like for one subject, we would learn German, which is high German um, which is not what we talked or what we understood, but I learned to read it because we learned it in school and then that was at church.
Speaker 1:You said that's what they talked at church as well that's what was prayed, that's because, like, prayers were prayed out of prayer books and that was what was spoken at church. So it was a language that we didn't really understand. I mean that the, the preacher, the ministers, would often use some of the like our terminology, like our words, like the pennsylvania dutch, but if they were really good preachers they wouldn't. They would do the high, the high german, which we didn't understand, kind of like catholics and latin, really, you know that's interesting because you have a um, a way of belief, religion if you will, that um.
Speaker 2:you have a lot of questions, but then the way that it's presented to you is even not in a language that's the most natural to you, so it makes it harder to even understand.
Speaker 1:To this, day, even though I can still speak Pennsylvania Dutch, I never learned how to have a spiritual conversation in my mother tongue. Like if I would ever want to talk spiritually to somebody, I have to switch to English because I can't find the words in Pennsylvania Dutch to use. Isn't that bizarre?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, so at what point did you said you left the Amish church once you got married, which was in your 20s? What made you guys leave?
Speaker 1:So that was a whole, a whole journey and and I really like looking back God's hand was obviously so apparent, like my whole life really, because at the age of 12, then I did ask Jesus to come to my heart. I read a tract and I I realized that this is truth and I did. I remember kneeling and asking Jesus into my heart and then feeling a prompting to go tell my parents what I just did. But I couldn't like. I was like they're gonna be mad, they're not gonna be about this. So I was scared to tell them.
Speaker 1:The fear of man was really real. And then my thought process was how am I going to live this out? Because once we turn 16, that is your time of rumspringa, then, and it's when you really don't have to obey your parents really anymore. It's, it's really bizarre. So my thought process was how am I going to do that? If I'm following the Lord, like if I actually follow Jesus wholeheartedly the way I would like to, I won't be able to do that like I won't be able to run around, do the rumspringa thing in clear conscience. So I just kind of put everything on the back burner, just like I don't know what to do. Because which, if I would tell my parents, they would be mad at me and probably really talked me out of it, and so I just chose not to say anything to anybody and just kept living my life, but with God always there, you know. So it was kind of it was really kind of difficult.
Speaker 2:It's interesting because in some ways, you were so independent and had your own way of thinking and questioning. That's unique, you know, especially in societies like closed societies like that, that and yet you felt because of the reprimandation that could happen. You kept it to yourself and was exploring and thinking and pondering, and you mentioned that you read books. With the books that you read, do you are you, were you guys allowed to read books that were not Amish or not by Amish authors?
Speaker 1:we did. We did a lot like. I mean, our books were all English, written in English, which we understood, um, except the bible. I had an English bible and I would read that just more out of like. It never really did make sense to me a whole lot. But then if I really wanted to earn brownie points I would read it in German, which was usually Sundays, which I didn't understand it, but I thought it was like being better I was doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess the thing that's interesting to me as an outsider is that you have a close community that has very strict rules and strict way of doing things, things, and at the same time, you are allowed to be exposed to information about the outside world, which would, in essence, make you question the inside world, and so that's interesting. So if you were an avid reader, you got to explore all the different things I did.
Speaker 1:I did and I read a lot of christmas carol kaufman books. I don't know if you're familiar with them, but those were always on our bookshelves. I read a lot. So, yes, it did cause lots and lots of questions.
Speaker 1:But my thought process then from 12 to 16 was, if I choose to follow Jesus fully, then I would not be able to run around and I don't know what I would do, like as my home life wasn't that great and I.
Speaker 1:But for an Amish girl to leave the faith or to leave the Amish culture and live on her own was like now they do it, but back then was on like now they do it, but back then you just didn't do that. And if you did which my sister actually did, and life was really hard, really hard for her how so? Because she wasn't welcome at home, like she left when she was like 19 and she wasn't welcome at home very much, and then she got a car but she had to find a place to live on her own. She had to get her own car, and she just talks about how lonely it was, like she's 15 years older than I am and she talks about how hard it was. Like how I mean think about and this is even thoughts that I like, even when we finally did leave like how do you start thinking on your own?
Speaker 1:when you were taught to think a certain way. Right, and you were taught. You were always told what to do. You just followed rules and now, all of a sudden, like you're free. But what do I do with this freedom? How do I think for myself? That is really difficult. How do I actually know that I'm not going to be deceived by thinking for myself?
Speaker 2:wow, yeah, that's profound. Yeah, it reminds me to you of a book I forget the author right now, but um who left North Korea and you know it's a different structure there, but essentially also very, you know, dictatorship. You can't think for your own, everything is you're told what to do, and she said that it was really hard for her to adjust to freedom because she didn't know what to do with it. She said I rather would have someone tell me what to do so I can just do it.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely of freedom, because she didn't know what to do with it. She said I rather would have someone tell me what to do so I can just do it, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. And that is a lot to unravel, like when you're always told how to think, what to do, and all that. Like even now, when I go back into the amish settings I can so easily pick up the way they think because things haven't changed a whole lot. In some ways they have. But you go back to yeah, it's just you realize how ingrained it is how to think, how to be and how to perform, and when that's taken away you feel lost. So my sister doing that on her own, without a husband, without a boyfriend, about anything I I can't even imagine yeah, that was really brave of her to do it was really brave of her to do it, really brave yeah, so you and your husband.
Speaker 2:At what point did you guys decide to leave, or how did that come about?
Speaker 1:yeah, that's a good question. We were okay. So in our dating years and in our like when we were dating and all that, those conversations did keep coming up between him and I, because he too, at like 11 years old, somebody had led him to Jesus as well but then didn't teach him how to walk it out. So we both had that background and teach him how to walk it out. So we both had that background. But at that time when we were dating like when I was 20, 21, I was at 20, I think we started dating when I was 21.
Speaker 1:I there was times that I did hear, I heard the voice of the Lord. I really did, and I was like really starting to lean in, to like building my relationship with him. Because now I actually I was dating but I was really serious about choosing the right husband, mm-hmm and so I knew that I wanted the help of the father to do that. So I was praying a lot actually and leaning into because now my running around my room spring us. That was kind of behind me. I was now dating and now like starting to look at, okay, I could settle down and like all that is behind me and now I can actually figure out who I really am and what life I want to live from here on.
Speaker 1:So there was, there was a couple of times in our dating life that hard things came up and I kind of took a stand.
Speaker 1:One of them was and I know my husband doesn't mind me sharing this because it's something that I share a lot but in our dating life he was still doing like he was still drinking and doing drugs occasionally and I was really against those things. I never did those things, even though the guy, all the guys around me did, us girls didn't, which is kind of at normal in the Amish. And the guys had the cars, right, but we never, we never drove. We just drove with them because they were not members of the Amish church. Yet guys usually don't get, don't join, don't get baptized until they're ready to get married, where the girls get baptized around 16 and 17. So that was kind of the difference that we would still hang out with. So we're dating, seriously dating, but he's still drinking, he's in a band, a rock and roll band, and traveling with that as well at times, and then doing drugs right. So such an oxymoron, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So the one time that he came home from doing a big band, a big I don't know what it's called, like a band.
Speaker 1:So they had traveled out to Ohio to do it it was called the Pits, I don't know traveled out to Ohio to do it it was called the pits, I don't know. So and he came home and then he told me. He said hey, I have to, I have to confess to you. I was doing drugs again. And I was like, oh, my word, like you can't keep doing this. And so that night we broke up. It was him that was like I'm not, I can't keep doing this to you and I'm not sure that I want to settle down yet, so let's just break up. And I was devastated because we were seriously dating and I was devastated.
Speaker 1:So the next day I'm crying out to the Lord, like seriously crying out to him and saying, like literally crying and saying just help me understand. I was making noodles, homemade noodles in our kitchen. My parents had a woodwork business so they were out doing their woodwork thing. So I was by myself in the house because I'm the only one at home anymore. All my other siblings had left and I'm making noodles and I'm crying and and just crying out to the Lord and all of a sudden I heard like it was almost an audible voice. But not, but not. But it was one of the a voice that made me actually turn my head to see if there was somebody there. But I heard this is an answer to your prayers and I was was like whoa, that's crazy.
Speaker 1:And then I realized I had been praying for a heart change for my boyfriend at the time, my now husband. Like I had really been praying for a change of heart because I was so done with the sin life, I was so done with all that and I want to just move on and live for Jesus. And so I was praying. And so when, when I heard this is an answer, answer to your prayer, like I actually jerked. I was like wait what? And then with that came such peace, like complete peace, and the tears dried up and I continued my day, probably singing because I was so filled with peace and I was just like okay, whatever happens, it's going to be okay.
Speaker 1:And that evening, that same day yet this was we broke up, sunday night, right, and this was Monday. Monday night, he knocked on my door and he said, hey, do you want to go shopping? I was like sure, and I, just because I had such peace, I knew everything was gonna be okay. And on the way going to the mall, he's like hey, I had a change of heart today. I realized that I don't want to continue this kind of lifestyle anymore and I'm ready to ready to um. He's like I don't want to break up with you and I'm ready to change my life. And even though it was a yeah, like a dedication to the lord, it was like I want things to change.
Speaker 2:It was an acknowledgement that I want to do things differently. Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:So from then on we did kind of live differently, like, even though he had, he was still in the band and he would go go, at times I would choose to go home instead of going with him to the parties and stuff like that. And so we became kind of marked that, oh, they're like being different, um, but then we got married, soon after that, thinking, and then I'm thinking, once we get married, everything's gonna be fine, right, but it wasn't because we still especially he still didn't didn't have that change of heart like he was doing things better, but more in a religious way. And then so it wasn't long into our marriage that we're like, oh, our hearts are still not satisfied. We thought that they it would feel different once we could dress real plainly and do all the rules properly. But that emptiness was still there. And that's when we really started searching.
Speaker 1:So, not long into our marriage, and we always knew that the Bible was truth. So we turned to the Bible, like fully turned to the Bible, and one day both of us were sitting there reading our Bibles and I'm reading the Living Bible because I, yeah, I had given him the Living Bible when we were dating but he had never read it and I found it in his whatever one of his pieces of furniture that he brought anyway, and I was reading that and he was reading the King James Bible and all of a sudden we started understanding what the Bible was saying Like. Suddenly, like for the first time, it actually made sense to us and we started having conversations, reading the Bible and comparing notes and really digging in and then having conversations what would it actually mean to follow Jesus fully?
Speaker 2:And we started counting the cost and it didn't go long until we left then and what were, what would you say were some of the biggest challenges that you guys faced? Adjusting to the life outside the Amish community at the once a year podcast. Giving back is part of our mission, which is why we proudly sponsor a Midwest food bank. Here's why Midwest Food Bank Pennsylvania distributes over $25 million worth of food annually, completely free of charge, to over 200 nonprofit partners across PA, new York and New Jersey, reaching more than 330,000 people in need. Through their volunteer-driven model and innovative food rescue programs, they turn every single dollar donated into $30 worth of food. Now that's amazing. Join us in supporting this cause To learn more or to give. Go to midwestfoodbankorg slash Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1:Figuring out our way, because now you're outside of the safety net that you've always lived in and it was freedom. But that freedom was scary. Where did we actually want to go to church? How do we actually want to dress? What kind of car do we want? Where do we want to live? Everything had always been mapped out for us and all of a sudden we had these how are we going to raise our children? What are our belief system around that? Our children like, what are, like, what are? What are our belief system around that? So there was so much of yeah then, yeah, just, and then stepping, you know, going into I mean stepping outside the amish and going to um, a church that's right outside the amish that believed in and um being born again and Jesus and all that. But then realizing it was still exchanging one set of rules for another set of rules and we were like this doesn't feel right. And so there was a lot of figuring all that out, which was such a journey and we're kind of by ourselves doing that.
Speaker 2:I mean, we would always make friends at the church that we'd be going to, but then, we realize wait a minute, this is not much different yeah, and whereas, what was your family's reaction to that and his family's reaction to you?
Speaker 1:it was hard. It was really hard for them, because once you're married and settled down, they feel like you're gonna stay and then that kind of disrupts everything. So it was, yeah, they took it really hard, except I had siblings that weren't amish, so they were very supportive, but he was the first one in his family and so it was really. It was really hard to navigate all that and to have those conversations.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you guys were disruptors. Huh yeah, bunch of rebels.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yes, yes, his dad actually wanted to. My husband's dad actually thought he should take him to like a mental facility because he thought he lost his mind wow, because he's abandoning everything he knew, right.
Speaker 2:So?
Speaker 1:something's wrong, like you must have a chemical imbalance. You're not thinking straight. This is like you're making really bad decisions.
Speaker 2:So you must, there must be something wrong with you yeah, and do the amish believer acknowledge, like chemical imbalances and mental illnesses, is that they do?
Speaker 1:they do, and his dad actually had one, and I think that's why he thought that my husband also did that's interesting.
Speaker 2:So, and you transition into being a doula, which is fascinating. How did you discover that role? How did that come about?
Speaker 1:So that was okay. So we have seven children, right? And when our sixth child was born, we decided to just have him without any assistance, without a midwife, without a doctor, and just on our own, by faith. Because obviously we were still big readers and I had gotten a hold of this book called Born in Zion. I don't recommend it, but we read it and I read it and there was, like some of us, some of my friends, that had read it too, and we decided to have our babies by faith, which meant no, nobody, no prenatal care, you just have. You just go through pregnancy and labor and you have your baby. And so we did that with our sixth child, our second son.
Speaker 1:I don't recommend that either. For some people it's great, for me it wasn't great, like everything turned out well, but I missed having my midwife there with me. I missed having that, you know. And then when he was born, like he didn't, he didn't have, we had no birth certificate for him, nothing like that. We actually didn't. He didn't have that until he started school because he was just under the radar. It's just kind of a thing, I don't know. It was a thing that was going on right at that time.
Speaker 1:So but what, what that did for me was kind of planted that, because then one of my one of our friends, um, that we were going to the same church at that time and they had a baby six weeks after we did and they lived in Baltimore but they would travel up here for church. And that one Sunday after church I went to her and said, hey, what are you guys doing for lunch today? Because they often would just stay because we had church in the evening. We had church like Sunday morning morning and sunday evening at this church, and so I asked her it was pretty common for them to come with us home for church from church and have lunch. So I went to her and said, hey, what are you guys doing today for lunch? And she said I'm really hoping that we can go to your house for lunch today. She said I'm in labor and I brought my stuff along because she too was planning on having the baby with the way we did, right, with no assistance, oh my goodness.
Speaker 1:And she said I would love to have my baby at your house and I was like, sure, come on home come home, oh wow, and you weren't like, oh no, oh no, I was all about it all about it because we had just got done doing that and I had attended one of my other friends birth the same way, and so I was getting my feet in, you know midwifery without even having any kind of experience other than my own babies. And so they came to my, our house and they're from sri lanka actually, and but had moved, had located here and so they came to her house and that evening she had her baby. Um, now a little backstory to that. Like their first child was born in the hospital prematurely, so he struggled for a while, their second baby died at birth oh, wow and so she's like.
Speaker 1:Her stance on it was like I am done with all that, I'm just going to trust god. Now I am done with the medical. I am done like I just need to. I'm just going to trust god with this baby. So that's the baby that she's coming to my house and saying I would have this baby at your house wow, no pressure there but I didn't I. I mean I was so naive and so all about serving God in this way that there wasn't pressure really Like I just was all about it.
Speaker 2:And did her second baby die in the hospital? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, okay.
Speaker 1:So now this was their third. Their first one really struggled in the beginning. Their second one died, and now she's coming to my house to birth her baby at my house.
Speaker 2:Wow, so it's your friend's fault how you got into the doula.
Speaker 1:Kind of that whole, that whole era of time, yes, like getting my like feet in the. And so after that, um, the birth went great, it was beautiful, the baby was perfect and everything went well. Great, it was beautiful, the baby was perfect and everything went well. And after that I was like, oh my word, I would love to become a midwife.
Speaker 1:So I checked into I mean I already had six children, um, and they were all little, and I checked into becoming a midwife, even talked to my midwife about it and all that, and then realized it would take so much schooling and so much more than I had the capacity, because I just have an eighth grade education, right, and I was just like I just can't do college, like I just so I just put it away, just put it on on the back burner. And then, when our youngest one was 10 and yes, she was, we have seven children and the youngest was 10 I was like, okay, so what do I? I kind of raise my children. Now what do I want to do with the rest of my life?
Speaker 1:yeah and I went to get my hair done the one day and at the hairdresser, um, there was a, there was one of their employees was sitting there and and we started talking and she's she was pregnant for the first time and she's telling me how hard pregnancy is. She goes nobody has really prepared me for this and right next to me there was another mom that was talking about their one child and she was saying I don't know that I even want more children. Like there was another mom that was talking about their one child and she was saying I don't know that I even want more children. Like there was just a lot of like hard around motherhood, right that I was hearing that day and I left there saying, god, what has happened to joyful mothers? Like what is going on and how would I be able to speak into my mother's lives? Like how, what could I do?
Speaker 1:So I, driving home that day, I remembered that friends of ours that lived here from they had, they had moved here and were going to church with us. At the church that we were going to at that time came from from Australia and they had 10 children. And she talked about a book, another book, supernatural Childbirth book and how she would have her children supernaturally without pain. And she had talked about that book like years before, and I happened to remember that book on the way home that day from the hairdresser. So I got home and I got online to look up this book because I had never read it. And it popped up and I'm looking at it and somehow we still have.
Speaker 1:No, I still have no idea how this happened, but somehow from there I was linked to Carice Childbirth Ministry. From there I was linked to Carice Childbirth Ministry, which they're located in Florida, and I'm reading it and it's saying how they train midwives and doulas. I had never even heard the word doula, ever. I didn't even know how to pronounce it when I did see it, when I saw the word, didn't know how to pronounce it and I was like, or even knew what it meant.
Speaker 1:And I was like, what is this word? And I read further and it explained what a doula is and I was like, oh my word, I could do that, because it wouldn't take the midway, it wouldn't take all the schooling and midwifery, so that. So immediately I called the number on the website and Kristen in Florida answered on the website. And Kristen in Florida answered and and we talked and at the end of the conversation, um, she's. She was like why don't you pray about it? But this is something you could probably do. And I prayed about it and I also knew that it would take finances to do the schooling and, um, but it wasn't long, I called her, her back and said I really want to do this and that was in 2009. Yeah, that was in 2009. And, um, I had no idea what I was doing, but just jumped in and said this is something I could do and I want to do it yeah, and then you built a business around that and have staff on board and everything and you recently retired.
Speaker 2:Is that correct? Right?
Speaker 1:right, exactly, I recently handed over to one of my employees my business called three strands and let her run with it. But yeah, that was, and that was like I didn't know anybody. That was a doula, like that was like so. But I was like it's birth. I can do this. But I remember like in the course of doing my schooling for that which it took me almost three years to get my certification, and in that time there was three different times that I was going to quit. I was like I can't, I just can't do this. This is hard. This is because we're very involved in our church at the time and I was raising my still raising my kids and it just was hard at times. But Kristen, my coach, would always remind me what did you know? Go back and read your journal, because she had a journal in the beginning and she'd say go read your journal and see what god said to you in the beginning and why you started it right.
Speaker 1:Yes, the why behind, yes, the why behind it? Yes, and I'd be like, okay, I know, I know what it was, and then I just keep going yeah, and so the amish have a strong sense of community.
Speaker 2:Um, how is that rebuilding a community and how did you go about creating your own sense of community? That was outside of that that's really interesting.
Speaker 1:I mean obviously, um, a lot of us that are ex-amish will talk about that we have never found that again Like that sense of community the way it was in the Amish. Obviously it had a lot of like flaws in it too, but the community that we had in the Amish is very unique. How so that, like women really help each other, like going to like sisters would, like my sisters would always come and help me and I would go to their house to help work, like we did spring and fall cleaning, and we never did it by ourselves. We would help each other. And with canning if somebody had a busy day of canning we'd all show up to help.
Speaker 1:So that sense I think we've still most of us that have left the Amish, most of us still talk about that piece that we miss because that has never been recreated again. But the sense of community outside of that you kind of just have to. You just have to like do it from scratch in a way. But obviously, churches that we that we've been in there was always that you know you either join a small group or you made friends. But the sad part about that is then, when you leave that, you leave that community, then too Right.
Speaker 2:If you continue to evolve and, like you said initially, you exchange your one set of rules for another Right, so I take that as you moved on from there as well, right, right, and then, when you left, that again you're leaving another community, which is difficult.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, very much yeah.
Speaker 2:And so how have you fostered your own community? Own community, because just doing a little bit of background research on you, it's easy to see that you're very much family oriented, community oriented and just all the wonderful things different people have said about you and reasons to bring you on, so it's clear that that is a value to you. Community is a really, really big value to you.
Speaker 1:It is, it is, it is and that evolves with time too, like it does change. I know that when I retired, when I left my business because that was a huge community for me, like my employees, my clients all that was that was huge. Oh, that was that, that was huge, that was very, because I was out there. A lot Right now, like stepping back from that, has has again made me be like, ok, what do I do now? And it actually was a little bit of a stripping of identity and I realized, oh, this was a part of my identity is having that, having the business, growing it and all that and just being out there. Right when you step back from that, it's like, oh, now, what does that look like In my day right now, in the space that I am right now?
Speaker 1:Um, my kids, my grandchildren, are a big, big part of that, my grandchildren. I have eight grandchildren and and I have dedicated my like to just live life for them too. I don't want them to grow, and I think a lot of that also comes from what I didn't have in my life and I have to be careful with that. But, um, I mean, obviously I didn't have my mom died when I was young, right, so I never really felt like I had a mom and I never had grandmothers, like they all all died before. I don't remember them. And so those missing parts of my life, I did not want that to happen to my children and my grandchildren because of the void that was there for me.
Speaker 1:So in that I think we can also sometimes overcompensate. We tend to just pour out everything, and so right now, where I am today is like doing that and also being like okay, but I still need my own autonomy, I need to, I need to. So it is it's kind of an ongoing like, since retiring, like, okay, like, and we, and we also have children living with us, like we, we have our, our daughter, our youngest daughter and her husband and two children live in our basement and recently, in the fall in September, our oldest daughter and her husband and child moved in with us upstairs, like up. So we have, we have three floors, so, um, so my house is busy, very busy, very, you know, always. So it doesn't give me a whole lot of space to dream and to um, but that's, that's the season we're in right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when? I think when Sarah initially passed on your contact information, she said she's not going to get back to you today because it's her grand day. My Nana day, yeah, and so and I was like that is really cool, like, yeah, I can respect that. So what does that look like? What is a grand day?
Speaker 1:My Nana day is. The grandkids that are not in school all come and, and once they I, they come when they start choosing to come. So the babies aren't, the little babies aren't coming, but once they are, usually around a year old, um, they choose to come by their. Their own choosing is like, if their mom comes and to drop off the other children and they like, oh, they're choosing to stay, they can stay too. So it's just, and we've been doing this, oh goodness, for 11, 11 and a half years, I think. Every Friday, those grandchildren come.
Speaker 2:It's not one Friday a month, it's every Friday.
Speaker 1:Every Friday the grandchildren come and obviously that evolves, because the older ones get older and they're in school and sometimes they just choose not to come when they're older, um, but there's always a group that's there. Right now, there's consistently four little girls that come. I say little, there are seven, there are um seven and and almost six, and then two two-year-olds that are there most every Friday.
Speaker 2:And what do you guys end up doing on that day?
Speaker 1:That really varies Lately, like for this winter. I think it started kind of in the beginning of the winter, Once we start being inside more. I started doing stations and that has worked really, really well for me, Because I realized that I have to kind of stay in control of the day, and to stay in control of the day means that I'm present and that I have things planned.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I am like actually being there. They're not just coming in and just doing their thing, I'm involved, right. So the stations look like I have a plan ahead of time and I actually have a box now too, like with puzzles in it and and colors, um crayons and and pages to color, and so then we time like okay, for 20 minutes we're at the station, then we all switch to go into the station and we just keep. We switch, like we have like five different stations and they vary. They're not always the same and that has worked really, really well. They love it. They love it. They're always.
Speaker 1:If we don't like, if there's a Friday that we're actually out and about doing things because that happens too one of the granddaughters does horse riding lessons and there's two times now we just we took her to that and we stayed with her, and then the one time from there we went to watch a movie, and so we just do lots of different things, but the days that we don't do stations, that especially the little ones will say we didn't do stations. So that has been a huge, a huge thing.
Speaker 2:It sounds like you're almost an event planner. I don't know if you read the book by Priya Parker called the Art of Gathering. It's a fabulous book.
Speaker 2:It's one of the best books on hospitality or gathering events, but she talks about being a guide.
Speaker 2:When you are hosting in any capacity, people need to be guided, and so you create thoughtful things to do, but you also guide them through and it's you're kind of being a boss or you're using your authority, but it's the proper authority that people want. Because think about the times that, like, you've been invited to a party and there's food and you come, but there's no direction of what to do, why we're there, and you kind of leave and you you feel like this was kind of a to do, why we're there, and you kind of leave and you you feel like this was kind of a waste of time. Right, you know, you may have had a good conversation here and there, but in general, like it feels like there was no sense of purpose. Yes and so when you put those things together and it's fabulous that that's what you're doing to your grandkids your guide at the event at your house, with all the different stations- and those are the days that are peaceful and filled with lots of fun, and I love that.
Speaker 1:I would actually love to read that book, I think, because it is so true and I'm noticing that too. Whenever, like even times that I host something like if I host something and there is not a plan, at the end of the day I'm like, was that really beneficial? Because don't, yes, it's's so, but I've never read something.
Speaker 2:I didn't read anything like yeah, she calls it being an authoritative host. Wow. And she says when you're not being an authoritative host, you're actually doing a disservice to your guests, which you know. It sounds like you're bossy, but she's like people actually need, want that and need that they do, because we all want to know what's our purpose. Yeah, when are we going and why we're here?
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love that a lot and now that you're not part of the Amish community, have you reconnected with the Amish community? Do you touch base or what does that relationship look like?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, yeah, very touch base, or what does that relationship look like? Yeah, yes, yeah, very much actually. Um, what does that look like in my times and I mean, I've also I've also been like big in young, living like the- oil the essential oils.
Speaker 1:so there I am still invited to go back to groups of Amish women to teach them. I mean, the big thing is, you should teach on how to use oils in birth, labor and postpartum. So I have a whole topic on that and the Amish are still inviting me to come back to teach on those things and it's been really, really interesting and I love it. I love those days because, um, I, I, I can just totally be who I am when I go and I don't always even stay on the that topic all the time, like I do for the most part, but I still. I will also bring in like things of god and and and just and my journey, because I've found a freedom to do that with the Amish. The Amish have changed a lot actually.
Speaker 1:A lot and I love their culture. And then there's also my Amish friends, the ones that I ran around with in my Romspringa years. Right, there was 13 of us. We still get together.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's fabulous. And some of them are still Amish.
Speaker 1:Some of them are still Amish. Now the ones that okay, so the ones that are no longer Amish. There's five of us that are no longer Amish. We get together every Thursday night. Tonight is the night Okay, so that's a big part of my community, like all five of us get together, and we've done that for a year now, because we started last january. Every thursday night we get together, do we do something? And then the the ones that are the others that are still amish. We'll probably get together maybe twice a year, and they're just a beautiful group of women, oh my word, they're so we'll probably get together two or three times a year. Actually. Just, they're just precious, so precious, and I always look forward to seeing them and we have great conversations and that has been really beautiful. I mean, we've been friends since we're like 14 and 15 yeah, there's something about longevity of friendship.
Speaker 1:Yes there is right very much and I, I just treasure, really treasure each one of those. I mean we're still all alive and it's just been really, really beautiful.
Speaker 2:What advice would you give someone who is thinking about leaving the Amish community when starting all over? Like, what would you wish someone told you when you were thinking about it?
Speaker 1:That is a really good question, because I don't even know, because everybody's journey is so different. Obviously, getting into a Bible-believing church like soon, or at least a group of people, that you're not just floundering on your own, however, I say that, but then I still think of our journey where we were kind of alone and we always made friends and always had people. We always had people, but it was still. The journey was us and God.
Speaker 1:So if somebody is thinking about leaving, I mean, just take that leap of faith and let your story be written, because nobody's is going to look alike, but journey with God, get curious at what God has put inside of you and trust that. I think for me, in the beginning I didn't trust that and I felt like we might be deceived, we could go wrong, but with time God showed me again and again, oh man, that I can trust my inner voice, that inner, you know, and that is the biggest part is you got to learn to trust the voice inside of you and to be true to yourself, like you talked about earlier. To be true to yourself. Don't numb down that voice. Be true to it and actually cultivate it, because if we're going to stray, god's going to. He's so faithful he will bring us back again.
Speaker 2:He doesn't leave us, so we don't have to be afraid of deception when we're doing it with him I've heard it put it this way before is that we either operate out of fear or out of love. Right, and we're operating out of fear, it's usually not a lot of good comes out of it and your choices are not. You know you may be making mistakes along the way from that, but when you're operating out of love, that's like what can go wrong.
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly, and just keep being curious, right and expanding, knowing that, yes, like you talked about earlier before getting on here, what are the regrets of people at the end of their lives that they didn't dare to do what they wanted to do?
Speaker 1:Yeah, or be authentic to who they are To be authentic to who they are, because God needs, he needs all of our voices, he needs all of our gifts and they're not all going to look alike, yeah, but if we keep making ourselves, putting ourselves in a place of, well, I shouldn't be doing this because because of, like, nobody else is doing this or whatever, no, just take a risk and see what happens. Yeah, dare to be. I think when I was younger, I just felt like it's always going to be like uphill, uphill, uphill. You know, you go like, but it's not. It's the ups and flows, it's the ups and downs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's life, that is life in the, and the sooner you embrace that, that that is life, the better you are, I think, the more we can just flow with that, yeah, and not be hard on ourselves and not critique everything when that, when the downs happen, like, oh, tomorrow, oh, tomorrow's going to be a better day again. Because this is life, the ebbs and flows, and you can hold both things at the same time. You can hold grief and you can hold joy.
Speaker 1:You can hold at the same time.
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Speaker 1:Yes and no, because as long as we are willing to grow and willing to learn, you just keep going. And obviously it's not going to be perfect. But even in that imperfection there's usually a purpose or good ends up coming out of it, right. So if I would have stayed where I was, then I would have a lot of regrets. But I didn't, and some of the regrets would have been the way I viewed or the way as a young mom of a lot of littles was not easy, but with time I saw that it wasn't actually the children, it was hurts within my own heart that I had to take time to heal. That's a good one. Yeah, if I wouldn't have done that then, yes, there'd be a lot of regrets. But when I realized those, the things in my own heart that needed to be healed, and I took time to do that, and still, you know, there's still times that I need to I guess I would say regret would be that I didn't do that sooner that I didn't do that earlier in life.
Speaker 1:But you don't know what. You don't know, right, right. So when I talk to young moms now, I do say work harder on yourself than you do on your children. Work harder on yourself than you do on your children.
Speaker 2:work hard on yourself, heal those places, because then you will be, you will give to your children what they need yeah, I think that's so huge because I think we also we underestimate how our health, our emotional well-being, impacts our kids and how we raise them, and also just when we are operating out of an empty cup. I think in our culture there is misconceptions about self-love and self-care. Obviously, the tandem can really swing in either direction. Obviously the tandem can really swing in either direction, but at the end of the day, I think I would say the same thing to myself is you know five words to go back? That would be the same. Regret is heal sooner, work on yourself so that you're really operating out of a beautiful, healed, wholesome self, because then you have so much to give 100, as if you don't, as many of us know, things come out sideways.
Speaker 1:I always say, yeah, coming out sideways. It comes out in ways that are like what was that Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but when you take time to sit in that and to heal those places in your heart and then and yes, and you love every part of yourself, I mean obviously there's still times you know, but but as a whole, you, you embrace who you are, and then you can do that for others.
Speaker 1:when we're like hard on ourselves, we're hard on on our especially our kids, yes, but when we're not hard on ourselves, we have so much grace for everybody else too, so that if I would say there would be a regret, it would be that I did not recognize that earlier in my life.
Speaker 2:Mm, hmm. One question I have, which comes from someone, a listener on the podcast, is they want to know how do the Amish do health care, or do they use hospitals? Do they have their own inside healthcare system?
Speaker 1:It. That really varies, just like it does outside of the Amish. Um, they, some of them, like, are fully medical and others are very alternative medicine. So it really varies kind of depending what your circle is or who you're. But I have like friends that would be fully, um, I mean now it's even kind of both. But I would say it's not any different inside the Amish than it is outside the Amish. Do they have health insurance? They have their own health insurance.
Speaker 2:Their own Okay. Yeah, the church called amish aid, so they take care of each other okay is that like a bucket, people essentially pay monthly or whatever and it all goes in the bucket and whoever needs is used kind of a system exactly when there's hospital bills, you hand it in and it gets paid from the bucket. It's beautiful actually yeah, and it really works for them. Yeah, well, I'm going to wrap up and honor your time here. What is Mary Ann's best advice that someone ever gave you?
Speaker 1:We did go through a really hard financial thing back in 2012. It really came to head like financially right, um, where it really looked like we could lose our home that we had built. And in that time, um, I have a friend, rondella, she's a life coach and I had asked her, like what? I finally changed the tone of my voice because before that, I was always a stay-at-home mom and I would always just depended on my husband to do the finances or to bring in the money. He was the breadwinner right, and I would like, when, when times were hard, I'd be like frustrated, I'd be like trying to help him figure it out.
Speaker 1:I I finally changed my tone of voice and I called my friend Rhonda the one day and I said what could I do to make a difference in our finances? And she said, well, look around, what do you have? And we started talking about what we have Like we have property, we have land we have. And we came up about what we have Like we have property, we have land we have. And we came up with like different things, like go buy a dog, raise puppies. You have a full, finished basement. Why don't you rent that out? There was like several things that we like immediately implemented. And I look back at that and I'm like, oh my word, that was some of the best advice that would that really changed the course of our lives from that point on.
Speaker 2:So yeah, that's good. Yeah, what is the bravest thing that Marianne's done?
Speaker 1:leaving the Amish was probably one of the like a big thing, but then also becoming a doula like really that was because of just having the eighth grade education and then having to go back like kind of do schooling again was probably one of the was probably one of the hardest, bravest things to do.
Speaker 2:What are your top two to three books that transformed your life? You mentioned a few that you don't recommend that you write. What are some?
Speaker 1:that you would recommend. Well, first of all, the Bible, really, because that was such a life changer when we actually could read it and understand it right. And then, um, oh man, another big one and that was in time of our financial stuff was danny johnson's book. Uh, first steps to wealth was a really big one for, like, when we turn our finances around. Joyce Meyer's book, the Battlefield of the Mind, was another one that's like stands out to me. Oh man, I did read a lot through the years.
Speaker 2:Well, Marianne, thank you so much for your time and thank you for the interview. It's been a pleasure getting to know you and I'm sure your episode will inspire people yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 1:This was fun. I enjoyed this and it was really. Yeah, I feel like I'd like to get to know you better. I had to put you in front of this sometime and ask you questions yeah, maybe one day right?
Speaker 2:thank you for listening to the Once we Dare podcast. It is an honor to share these encouraging stories with you. If you enjoy the show, I would love for you to tell your friends. Leave us a reviewer rating and subscribe to wherever you listen to podcasts, because this helps others discover the show. You can find me on my website, svekkapapacom.