THE ONES WHO DARED
THE ONES WHO DARED PODCAST Elevating stories of courage. You can listen to some of the most interesting stories of courage, powerful life lessons, and aha moments. Featuring interviews with leaders, pioneers and people who have done hard things. I hope these stories help pave the path for you to live out your courageous life.
THE ONES WHO DARED
The Slow Fade: How Leaders Lose Their Way Without Noticing | Peter Greer
Only 1 in 3 leaders finish well. Why does this happen? Why do so many good leaders fail and not even see it coming? How can you finish well?
In this eye-opening conversation, Peter Greer the CEO of Hope International and author of How Leaders Lose Their Way: And How to Make Sure It Doesn't Happen to You explores the slow, subtle erosion of leadership integrity and what it takes to stay the course. From writing your own eulogy to safeguarding against isolation, Peter shares practical strategies rooted in two decades of global leadership and hard-won wisdom.
In this episode, you'll discover:
- The "Drift" Problem: Why most leaders don’t crash instead they slowly fade, and drift away from initial purpose
- Eulogy vs. Resume Virtues: What writing your own eulogy can teach you about true success
- The Power of Accountability: How “no secrets” meetings can save your leadership ( and why it's important to do life in context of community )
- Sabbath & Slowing Down: Why rest isn’t optional for resilient leadership
- Resignation Letters & Role Clarity: How to remember you're more than your title
- Finishing Well: What separates leaders who thrive long-term from those who don’t
Whether you're leading a team, an organization, or your own life this episode offers a roadmap for staying rooted in purpose, character, and community. Don’t drift. Finish well.
Guest Link:
https://www.peterkgreer.com/about/
https://www.amazon.com/How-Leaders-Lose-Their-Way/dp/1514013541
-Links-
https://www.svetkapopov.com/
https://www.instagram.com/svetka_popov/
Welcome to the Once a Year podcast. I'm your host, vekka, and this is a fascinating interview with Peter Greer. I could have talked to him for hours. In this episode we talk about his latest book called how Leaders Lose their Way and how to make sure it doesn't happen to you, and so I've learned so much from this conversation, from his book, and did you know that only one in three leaders succeed and not have the failure of moral failure or whatever it is that causes them to stumble and fall off track of what they initially set out to do? And so I found that really fascinating, and we dug deep into cultivating integrity, accountability, how to avoid those traps and how to set yourself up for success so that it doesn't happen to you, and so I know you're going to be really encouraged by this episode.
Speaker 1:We talk about writing eulogies. There is so much here that you guys will walk away with with practical steps and tips on how to finish well, so tune in to this incredible episode. Hey friends, welcome to the Ones who Dared podcast, where stories of courage are elevated. I'm your host, becca, and every other week you'll hear interviews from inspiring people. My hope is that you will leave encouraged. I'm so glad you're here. Peter Greer, welcome to the Once who Dared podcast. I am so honored to be sitting across from you here via Zoom and learning more about your story and the impact that you have on the world.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you're president and CEO of Hope International, which it focuses on. It's a nonprofit that alleviates poverty through entrepreneurship and microeconomics. I'd love to hear more about that as well, because that's such a fascinating topic and something we hear about mission trips and different things that people do to impact areas of poverty, but microeconomics is a very unique approach to that as well, and so, before we get into your story, your book, I would love for you to set up and, let us know, give us a little backstory of who you are and what led you up to this point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, the two areas connect of the story and this broader field of microenterprise development. When I was an undergrad and I was studying in Moscow and I was there as part of an international business institute and I knew I had an interest in global issues, I knew I loved traveling and experiencing other cultures and I knew that I also loved global missions. And how can we help? How can I make a difference? Growing up, my parents would not take us on vacations. We didn't know any better.
Speaker 2:They would take us on service trips around the world, and that was what we did as a family Exactly, and at the time you know, maybe you hear about some of the places your friends are going and you're like, wow, that's very different from where we just got back from. But in retrospect it was an enormous gift. It was an incredible gift, so thankful for that. Those experiences that did shape me. So I'm studying in Moscow and had lunch with this individual and he said have you ever heard of Muhammad Yunus and the Grameen Bank? And I didn't. And then he went on to describe how he was doing work in the former Soviet Union of training and unlocking the capacity that individuals have to create and start small businesses, and the importance of capital and some creative vehicles that they had to invest in entrepreneurs that would never be able to go into a traditional banker or get a traditional investment. And it was fascinating. It was fascinating and you look back at your life and that was one of those moments that changed the direction. So that is what I've done with my career.
Speaker 2:I got involved after undergrad and then ended up working in Cambodia doing internal controls and working within this broader field of microfinance, and then moved to Rwanda and led a microfinance institution there and then spent time in Zimbabwe, trying to figure out in a hyperinflationary environment what really can you do to make an impact on poverty? And then graduate school and then, 21 years ago, moved to Lancaster, pennsylvania, and this is where we've been. This is home, and my wife, laurel, and our four kids yeah, based here, but still doing work. We now work with Hope International and 30 nations around the world. That's the story, but really the whole piece is that people around the world that are living in poverty have gifts and abilities, and aid is always best when it is temporary. Aid should not and never is the long-term solution. And so how do we invest? How do we help individuals provide for their own families? Cycle of generational poverty? By unlocking gifts and abilities and having jobs and employment as a key part of the solution.
Speaker 1:Yeah, rather than them depending on handouts, they're creating their own economy and they're able to have those jobs, be able to provide for the families. That is brilliant. I love that concept and that is amazing. What was the year that you were in the former Soviet Union? That?
Speaker 2:would have been 1995.
Speaker 1:1995. Wow, amazing. And so when did you become the CEO of Hope International?
Speaker 2:In 2004.
Speaker 1:Okay, amazing. And so you wrote a book that is so powerful, and I've just been reading through it, and so I would love to know about what was the inspiration behind you writing how Leaders Lose their Way?
Speaker 2:It is no secret that when we look at the headlines, it is a regular occurrence that we're going to hear a new story. A regular occurrence that we're going to hear a new story. What's the story? This week, a leader of some organization that is going to do something that is going to cause all of us to say why did you do that? What happened? What is going on there?
Speaker 2:And there was this one study that I read and it said only one out of three leaders finish well. I was like one out of three. What in the world? That's terrible.
Speaker 2:That's a shocking statistic, right, and the way that it defined not finishing well was abusing power or position for their own gain. Like, somehow they step out trying to make this impact on the world. Somehow they step out with, you know, passion and excitement, and then slowly, over time, that arc has been written, it starts to bend inwards and they lose their way. And instead of hearing that statistic or whatever the latest news issue is and saying I can't believe that they did that, I've asked a different question of how do I make sure that's not my story? I don't want to make sure that I have this long-term faithfulness in the same direction, because I care about this work, I care about the team, I and so it really became a research project of what causes people to lose their way, what causes leaders to lose their way, and how do we make sure that one out of three is changed. Let's go three out of three for leaders being known for that long-term faithfulness and impact in the same direction.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and in your book you mentioned that drift happens slowly and subtly and that it's tiny drifts that alter our course and that finishing well essentially is not an accident. We don't just accidentally finish well, but drift is the default. And I've heard this example in the marriage seminar once, that if you're not intentionally rowing towards each other, it's like the metaphor of being in the lake in two separate rowboats, and if you're not intentionally making effort to come towards each other, the lake is going to drift you apart. And that's the same metaphor here, which the drift is a default. So how do we finish well? And that statistic that you mentioned of 30% of people who set out with good intentions well meaning people, of people who set out with good intentions, well-meaning people eventually subtly drift from their mission, from their purpose, and I know that you and I have both written eulogies and this is something that you've done.
Speaker 1:After your grandfather's funeral, you came back and you were thinking, and I know that for me, funerals is something that isn't necessarily a negative thing. It's a way that I reflect on my life and I think it's a powerful place to be sometimes, because it allows us to understand how our life is so short and then the impact that we make. We need to reflect on that, and writing a eulogy is a beautiful way to say okay, how do I want to live my life intentionally, and how do I want to live my life intentionally and how do I want to finish Like, what is the end going to look like? What are people going to say? What is the impact that I made? What really, really mattered? And so I'm curious to know from you why is it that leaders start out well but don't always finish well?
Speaker 2:I think part of it is exactly what you were just saying. It's like that vision. What is it? What does finishing well actually mean? And David Brooks has written about the difference between eulogy virtues and resume virtues. Those are not the same things, and we spend a lot of our time focusing on the things that go on the resume, yeah. Yet in a eulogy you hear a very different set of descriptions of a life that is well lived, and my guess is there's a difference between what you wrote in that, when you're thinking about what do you hope is true, what do you hope those people closest to you say about you in that moment.
Speaker 2:And for me, that was just a powerful experience of clarifying what does it look like? I wrote it on a Saturday morning. I was at our kitchen table and I was getting emotional and thinking about, like what really do I want to be true? And my wife came down and I've got like tears in my eyes. What are you doing? I said I'm writing my eulogy in any other description at that point.
Speaker 2:So if you do this, like, make sure people know why you're doing this, it's an important piece. But did that and I put it on my calendar and I read it every year on my birthday, which is just a reminder of it, just clarifies what really matters and that helps clarify. And then the next question is and what are we doing about it? And I think you asked how do leaders lose their way? And I think the first piece is not knowing what it looks like, what is the destination that they want to look at and to really disaggregate resume virtues from eulogy virtues. But then the second piece is I'm amazed how easy it is to know and how hard it is to do.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of the things that we would put down. We know that they are important, but then we look at the last week and how many of our actions were in alignment with that, and I think that really was. If the book is helpful to anyone, my guess is it's not going to be clarifying. We kind of can do that real quickly, but it's how do we put these ideas into practice? Because when it comes to drift, it happens slowly and it happens through. Just I'm not thinking about it, I just took the next step without realizing where that path eventually goes, and so it's like what do we do practically? Let's get real practical. What do we do to stay on mission?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so beautiful. I read my eulogy this morning. Actually, I was reminded of and there's people that I know that read their eulogy every morning. Like I interviewed Brittany Turner. She is an incredible entrepreneur who's also making a great impact on the world the area of recovery. They help with human trafficking and rescue. She's got her own island in the British islands and you know so. She wrote her eulogy. Actually, she's the one that prompted me to write and do this exercise, and I do that in my retreats when I host women and we write our eulogy out because it is so important. I'm like you really read your eulogy every single day and she's like, yeah, she's like, yeah, there might be days that I miss, but it really helps me to know what is my mission, why am I here on this earth, what is the impact that I'm making? Because it is easy to drift.
Speaker 2:I think the biggest reason is you look at the impact on the people that you care about. When a leader drifts, it's not just the impact on them, it's the impact is expanding in circles around there. So just, you know real, practically you look at this work that we are doing. I love the mission of Hope International, so we see the impact. And if the headlines tomorrow were of some significant fraud that I had, you know the impact would be so severe. Trust would be lost, our ability to do this work and serve families. There would be real harm to people, let alone the impact on my kids and on my spouse and broader family. Like, I don't think we realize the impact until we are in that spot.
Speaker 2:And you know, probably the most heartbreaking thing of all the research that we did, most heartbreaking piece for me was every single person that shared so generously.
Speaker 2:They shared the story with such kindness because they were like, if this can help someone else, please, please, please, please don't follow this path. And every single one said all of a sudden I realized dot, dot, dot. But that moment of realization that is after so many small compromises for not months but years, and so we're just trying to go upstream a little bit of this, of saying what are those small habits, those small thoughts, those small behaviors that don't make a big difference today or tomorrow, but if you don't do them day after day after day, that is going to lead your head and your heart in a different direction. And then, all of a sudden, you're going to realize you're in a place that you don't want to go. So the real good places take work, the real valuable relationships take investment. And so we're just trying to say I love that analogy of the boats rowing towards each other like let's set our destination, let's grab that oar and let's go, let's row.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and from your experience and research, what are the early signs that you find that a leader may be wearing off course At the Once For a Year podcast? Giving back is part of our mission, which is why we proudly sponsor Midwest Food Bank. Here's why Midwest Food Bank Pennsylvania distributes over $25 million worth of food annually, completely free of charge, to over 200 nonprofit partners across PA, new York and New Jersey, reaching more than 330,000 people in need. Through their volunteer-driven model and innovative food rescue programs, they turn every single dollar donated into $30 worth of food. Now that's amazing. Join us in supporting this cause To learn more or to give. Go to midwestfoodbankorg. Slash Pennsylvania.
Speaker 2:Yeah, maybe this is an odd thing to say, but I just start with the assumption that every single one of us is veering off course in some small way, and so the number one indicator is are we making micro recalibrations on the daily basis? Are we taking a different course? Another thing is do we have people in our life who are going to speak the truth in love?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a big one too.
Speaker 2:Oh, so much of this was the danger of isolation, the danger of having no one in their life who really knew them. And we were talking to this one individual that had walked alongside a leader who had lost their way and he said I just didn't know. I thought I knew the person, but there was just so much of his life that was just kind of kept aside. And that should be another danger sign blinking. If there's a lot of parts of our life that are just not known, we just stuff them down. We know what happens with dynamite the more you just pack that down, the bigger the impact over time. So that's another huge one.
Speaker 2:How much of your life is known by others? How much of your life are you doing with others? And just one real concrete, practical piece I start every Friday morning with a friend and we've committed to doing this for the duration. We're going the distance with each other and to try and say they're just, are going to be in this relationship, there's just not going to be secrets and we're going to do this life, yeah, in friendship together. That's been enormously helpful.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's so beautiful because you have the accountability piece, you have the vulnerability piece and no secrets. So it's like, hey, we're going to openly share what the struggles are. What would you say to someone who perhaps is in a leadership role and they don't have somebody that you have on a Friday that they get together with, and maybe they don't even know where to start? There's, I would love for this to be my reality. But, Peter, where do I start?
Speaker 2:I would love for this to be my reality. But, peter, where do I start? Yeah, I mean, I would probably start by saying what a wonderful recognition, courage to you. That is brave for you to say that and to say I just don't have that relationship or those relationships right now. And I think about when I was in Rwanda.
Speaker 2:I was in a rural part of Rwanda with a friend. His name was Pierre and he said in rural parts everyone knows they need four friends. And I was like that's very specific, why four? And he said well, that's how many people carry a stretcher. And you know you need people, that four are going to be there. If you need to get somewhere, they're going to be the ones that are going to be carried in there. And I thought that's a beautiful analogy. We all need that core four. So who are they?
Speaker 2:And then the practical pieces of where to start. Oftentimes it takes time and intentionality. That is the number one word of all of our research. It's like it takes intentionality. You have to believe that it's important and then you have to align your schedule and your life to make time and space so that individual I would say who are the people that you know?
Speaker 2:Have you been part of a small group? Have you connected with others? Tell me about your college friendships and which one of those are most important. And I think that's a really, really important starting point. If you don't have those, if it's 3 am and you wouldn't know who to call, that's a really important insight. And then the question is so what do we do to kind of look at who are those people? And for me, every January I do something Constellation Mentoring. It's basically like looking at the relationships in my life and looking at those individuals that I want to make sure I'm creating time and space and growing closer to and doing life with on an annual basis. So again, every January, I look at the relationships in my life and then make sure that that is reflected on my calendar.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the people that you do have in your life, that you're close with, I'm sure that you give them permission to speak honestly into your life, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was on a walk with one of them not that long ago and I was processing an issue and in my work I'm known as Peter, but anyone who knew me through college knew me as Pete, so that's kind of how I know, kind of where the friendship is on that.
Speaker 2:So he looked at me, we were walking together and he said hey, pete, you're being an idiot. And I thought, yeah, I mean, you're probably right, but you could have said it a little nicer on that. But what a gift like to have friends in our life that actually do give us that gift. Wounds from a friend can be trusted, as has been written many years ago. And so having those friends but then also inviting them in to speak truth in moments that, yeah, you know you need it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. And I think, like, if we don't challenge the people within our inner circle, like if we're not calling out the best in them yes, calling out the gifts and the good things, we see them, but also course correction, like, hey, like, have you thought about what the implication of this action or whatever that is? Obviously in a really organic conversation, that is such a gift to have honest people in your life that you can really openly share with. But, like you said, it doesn't also happen by accident. It's not by accident that you're getting together with your friend on a Friday every week to check in. That is, you both made a commitment to say, hey, this is a value to us and we know this matters so much because statistics say one out of three finish well. So it's like hey, I don't want to be part of the negative end of that statistics. I want to be someone who finishes well. So let's commit to living a life of accountability, of vulnerability, that allows us to finish our course in the way that we intended to finish.
Speaker 2:And how do you do that in your life? Busy schedule, busy leader how do you do that in your life?
Speaker 1:Are you asking me? Am I being interviewed now? Are you asking?
Speaker 2:just anyone listening.
Speaker 1:Oh, do me. No, I'm asking you. Yeah, well, I do. I've actually have. I have a solid base of people who really can be super honest, people that know all the ins and outs of my life and who will call me higher. Yeah, I don't have necessarily a weekly schedule like you do, which probably is great and amazing. I have some long distance friends that we've been friends with for basically a lifetime and they know everything, and I also know everything.
Speaker 1:We hold each other accountable, you know, especially when we say, hey, this is what I know I need to be working on, I want you to hold me accountable in this. You know whether it's something to do with family or calling or purpose. And then they check in and say, hey, you asked me to hold you accountable in this, so how are you doing in this area? And it's like, oh, you're right, yes, thank you. Like recalibration, right, Keeping back on track. Yes, I did ask you to hold me accountable on this and thank you for checking in. Here's how I'm doing in that area.
Speaker 1:And so I think, yeah, that is something that I had to be strategic in as well and invite those relationships in and say, hey, I want you to know, like, if you see me getting off course, tell me, like you have my permission to call me out, Like I want you to be honest, I want you to tell me if you see something off, if you see me being prideful in any way, if you see me, you know, not walking in humility and not serving in a way that you know that I want to be serving. I need to know that, Like I don't want anyone to just be like man she's doing this and this and that, and this is what I'm seeing. I'm seeing those early signs of someone steering off course, but you know, I don't have the permission maybe or the courage to share that. But if you say, hey, you can openly tell me that, like I want you to speak into my life, If you see that that opens the door to that conversation.
Speaker 2:That's so good. That's so good, yeah, and I think that's an honest exercise to go through of when was the last time someone gave you a difficult truth. And if it's been a long time, that means one of two things you've been perfect or maybe people haven't helped, you see it, and it typically is the latter, not the former, of that. So right?
Speaker 1:yeah, I think exactly.
Speaker 1:I think you know the truth is that none of us are perfect, right, like we all are beings, and I think this is something that I've learned over the course of the journey and being part of several organization and churches and seeing leadership across the board was on headlines, like you mentioned in your book, or just people that you know in your world that have fallen off course is that people are human and these people, humans, run organizations, and whether that is a business, whether it's a church, whether it's a non-profit, and so I think sometimes we, as observers, when we see people fail, we can make the assumptions of you know well, god must be wrong or you know maybe something.
Speaker 1:So we judge the whole organization or a whole entity versus to identifying that we're all human, we're all capable of making mistakes and it's not necessarily a reflection of a certain industry or a certain organization, but it's a leadership failure, which is why I love that you, in this book, you focused on the person, not the organization, saying okay, how do we examine ourselves, how do we take the mirror and look at ourselves and say how am I doing in this way? How am I going to live my life intentionally so I don't wear a course, and yeah, I mean, I've seen this happen way too many times and it's been disheartening. And what may look like a perfect family or a leader from the outside, we don't see it until that suddenly happens right, suddenly boom.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was one of the early research studies that really shaped a lot of this work that we do. But one of the characteristics that was seen in almost every case is that people thought, well, that will never happen to me. They thought that you know, because of their story, because of who they were, that would happen to others, but it would never happen to me. They thought that because of their story, because of who they were, that would happen to others, but it would never happen to me. And the converse is true. Those people that did finish well knew that it wasn't a guarantee. They knew that it required work and commitments, and that's a huge shift on that. So I think the question for us is do we believe that we could lose our way? And if we do, then that is a strong motivator to say let's do the work so that that is not our story, and I think that starting point is really, really important, never happened to me, I would never do this.
Speaker 1:You know, especially when you see someone fall right, you can make the judgment and say, oh, I would never do that, I would never, you know. Blah, blah, blah, whatever that is. But when you have the perspective that you can also be that human who falls short and makes the mistake or drifts off course, so much so that eventually you're like whoa, how did I get here?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly right.
Speaker 1:Oh, so in this book, I want to know, like, what do you hope that readers will take away from reading this book, from studying it, holding the mirror on their leadership, their walk? What do you hope people will get out of it?
Speaker 2:I think there's some books maybe that are written from a philosopher perspective or studying or research on that. I'm a practitioner and so I hope that people do something with this. What are the actions, what are the attitudes, what are the behaviors that are going to help on that? So I would love nothing more than what I've seen in my own life is thinking through some of these concepts and doing it with a small group of friends. It will have a profound impact on your life, and so at the end of every chapter there's exercises. Again, that's kind of the way that I'm wired.
Speaker 2:What do we do? Okay, I see that that could be an issue. I see that, whatever you know, pick the topic, and there's lots of different ways to lose our way. Pick one of them, and then what do we actually do as a result? To take that minor course correction and again have that long-term alignment with what it is that we say we value, and then is that reflected in the way that we live. So that's my hope, that's our hope, that's the reason we spend some time, and let's change those statistics. One out of three is not okay with me. Let's make sure we're increasing that. Having our friends, those that we care about those that we are doing life with. Let's go three for three.
Speaker 1:When I read that I was like whoa, 30% I mean 50-50 sounds bad. You know, it's like you got a 50% chance of finishing well or not finishing well. That sounds bad in itself, but 30%, that's a staggering statistic. I mean, yeah, so that is. I definitely was super shocked by reading that you also share in your book about spiritual disciplines. So, out of all the disciplines, which one, would you say, is the most helpful? I'm incredibly selective about the supplements I choose for me and my family, and Soursop Nutrition Gummies by BeMe Beyond Medicine have become a family favorite. Not only are they packed with incredible benefits, but they're so delicious that everyone in my family enjoys them. Introducing Soursop Cell Plus Immunity Gummies the first ever physician-backed Soursop supplements in the US, expertly formulated with Soursop, elderberry and echinacea, designed to enhance your well-being, experience the benefits of soothing inflammation, balancing blood sugars, relieving stress and anxiety and strengthening your immune system. Use my code, svetka, that's S-V-E-T-K-A on SourSubNutritioncom and get 5% off today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we tried to figure out like order of causality, how do we go upstream, what are those most important? And I don't know that. We found that it was kind of like the aggregate of all of these pieces that are, all these subtle currents in our life that pull us away. But one that I found very interesting and again it's so simple. Much of what we find is it's not knowing something new, it's actually having it reflected in how we live. But this one was just on pace that the faster we live, the more likely we are to lose our way. Tell a story of an individual that actually got what they wanted, got this incredible opportunity to share their story on every single news outlet and this opportunity to see all of this impact. And they were running so fast. And you can do that for a short term. You cannot do that for the long term and I think so.
Speaker 2:What is one of the practices?
Speaker 2:I think this idea it's an ancient idea, but the idea of Sabbath that one out of seven days you are going to unplug, and I think that's so important because unless you have a little bit of time and space to get your internal RPMs down, you won't be able to look and see where you're drifting.
Speaker 2:If you're always running to the next thing, you're not going to see the impact on those people that are closest to you. You're not going to have time to say how am I doing as a dad in this season, how am I doing caring for you? How can we make sure our relationship is growing stronger? You don't have those conversations when you're running from one thing to the next, and so for many individuals, it requires a little bit more, and again, this is the intentionality. What does it look like for us to have time, have space to slow down, to look around, to consider where we are and the impact that we're having on others? That habit, that practice, I think, would help us identify areas that we need to change in our life, that we're never going to see if we keep going from one thing to the next.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so good. And from your findings of your research and prepping for this book, what were some other things that you found interesting or maybe even surprising?
Speaker 2:Oh, I mean, surprising was we started doing this research and you know, it's almost like when you're doing car shopping then you start seeing cars and the thing that I would say was most surprising is, as we started doing this research and you start then reading the news differently, you start looking at different pieces and it's like this is a crisis, Like it is a straight up crisis of how prevalent it is that people that are in leadership positions end up going in a different direction. So I think that was the shocking thing that initially I read that study about the one in three and I was like no way, come on, no way. And then you start studying this and you start looking around and you're like that, actually I can see that, I can see that. And heartbreaking too. Some of these stories that we had were individuals that are in the twilight years of their career, individuals in their 70s, and you do that Like oh, why, why, why, why? So it's like, yeah, pay attention, pay attention. So I think that is one piece. And then again, the feedback piece was so instructive.
Speaker 2:Most of the individuals that lost their way, they just didn't have anyone to call them out. And that's the challenge with success in an organization, Success leads to more isolation. It leads to more opportunities to go and leads to more of an identity that is kind of mixed up in who I am being synonymous with what I do, and those two things are not true. One other kind of practice writing my eulogy, but I also wrote my resignation letter and I hope that that letter is not going to be mailed for many years.
Speaker 2:But there was something powerful about writing words of appreciation for this season, but also knowing that I am interim in my role, and I think that's another kind of check on our heart is what's our identity? How closely intertwined is that with what we do? And maybe relatedly, and how are we actively helping others grow into more significant leadership roles in the organization? How much do we hold on to the pieces of our job versus? How are we empowering and inviting others to step into that as well? So I could go on, but again, it's like not one thing. It's like all of these related issues that, when taken in aggregate, yeah, either lead us to the place we want to go or slowly lead us off track.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's kind of like a garden, right? The same kind of analogy where you need the sun, you need the water, you also need to prune and weed and you know it's a constant thing. Like I have a garden right now and we had a lot of rain recently and that brought up a lot of weeds, and so you have to keep up with the weeds. Sometimes there are seasons that bring weeds a lot faster than you can keep up, so you have to make intentional effort to get rid of those weeds and continue to have a thriving and healthy garden. And it does take the sun, it does take the water, it does take the pruning and the weeding and then harvesting right, and everything is in seasons too. So I think, recognizing the seasons, there are seasons of planting, of harvesting, of pruning and all of that.
Speaker 1:So and I love that you said that when success comes with more isolation, because you have more opportunity and there is more of identifying your identity with what you do versus to who you are and the roots of who you are, whose you are, and that identity and I think a lot of times the more successful leader is that, I found, is that the reason they feel more isolated to. Part of it is because not everyone can understand what they're going through. And so, like we have certain friends that are just in like the top 1%, the top 10% of wealth or certain success metrics, and for them it's a really lonely road because not everyone can understand where they're coming from and can understand their heart. So even for them to have someone who is a peer of that same level of success or the same level of whatever metric, they do feel isolated.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely true. Yeah, and again, that's one of the blinking red lights If you feel like I have no one that I can truly know and be known by, if there's no one that really could understand I'm struggling in this issue right now. We are not meant to do life alone. We need others to do life with and alongside. Yeah, so that doesn't matter what the sector is, but I do think that the more success someone experiences, you have to work even harder to create time and space for that, even though that is a universal need that we all have.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, peter, before we wrap up this interview, I want you to tell us where can people find you, and your book is obviously found anywhere. Books are sold, correct.
Speaker 2:That is correct, anywhere books are sold, yeah, for sure, yeah. And then if anyone wants to connect, or if we could try and be helpful and we do have a bunch of resources as well that even if people don't buy the book, these tools, I really we wanted to make it practical and actionable and so, like the constellation, mentoring, of thinking maybe differently about the people in your life, if you go to howleaderslosetheirwaycom, you can get all the information there, and then again, anywhere books are sold. And then personally, I write a blog at peterkgreercom and those are the places that connect.
Speaker 1:And on all the socials, Awesome, and so I end the podcast by asking three questions. One of them is what is the bravest thing that Peter has ever done?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think maybe the one that maybe stands out is while I was in Rwanda, we loved going and seeing the silverback gorillas and living there. We got to see them the silverback gorillas and living there we got to see them multiple times and it's not like seeing them in a zoo. They are the king of the jungle. What do you mean living there? So I lived in Rwanda earlier in my career.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but not living with the like where the gorillas are.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, sorry, same part of the country. Yeah, but we would go regularly on that because you know, whenever friends are there, at that time it was just an amazing experience. And so I turned my back on the silverback and the silverback charged and grabbed me and started dragging me away into the Virunga National Forest. He let me go, stood over and beat his chest and it was a moment. But maybe the bravest thing is my wife at that moment thought that was the right time for us to leave, but I was like, no, we got still some time and so we got to have that experience and then still hung out being surrounded by 39 gorillas, and it's an awesome experience. So I think about time with gorillas and being dragged away, but then still wanting to stay, maybe as something on the outdoor adventure, I would say oh, wow, yeah, that is quite a remarkable experience.
Speaker 1:I mean that one will stick, that's for sure. What are three books that were pivotal in your life?
Speaker 2:Oh, I mean in terms of the professional standpoint Banker to the Poor by Muhammad Yunus really was this idea of understanding how finance can be used to break the cycle of poverty. That was a great one. In some of the other reading I have loved reading Philip Yancey and his recent books, his autobiography I was just so touched by that and his story. But I'd recommend anything by Philip Yancey. There's just a realness and a rawness you know he talks about life and faith really impacted by him. And then maybe the third one is I was really inspired by the Bonhoeffer book by Eric Metaxas and just looking at a courageous leader who was living in I mean just talk about challenges of that time and that season and yeah, that was a profound book of what it looks like to and, yeah, that was a profound book of what it looks like to have a faithful presence in the midst of incredibly challenging times. So yeah, those are the top three. Maybe that come to mind.
Speaker 1:Awesome, yeah, those are really good. And what is the best piece of advice that someone gave you?
Speaker 2:I think oftentimes we kind of relate to life and what comes to us, and maybe it's just because we've been talking about it.
Speaker 2:But a friend, a mentor, I was complaining about something in my life and feeling like I was pulled, and he said you realize, you have more control than you realize about the way that you structure your day.
Speaker 2:Realize about the way that you structure your day. And it just was permission to not just like at me to be responsive, but it was permission to say let's flip this around, let's let's understand, and if I say I want to be a dedicated dad, let's make sure that I'm not scheduling meetings after 5 pm so I can go cheer my daughter on in her soccer game this afternoon, let's make sure that I'm not traveling so much that I'm not present at home. And it just was this invitation to, yeah, take more ownership of the life and the things that I can control. There's so much of life that we can't control. But to actually control the things that we can and that level of intentionality again it's been a theme that we've been talking about but to make sure that our calendars reflect our priorities and put that in early, that's been really, really helpful.
Speaker 1:Amazing. Well, it's been such an honor talking to you, Peter. Thank you so much for your time. Is there anything that I haven't asked you or anything else you'd love to add to this interview?
Speaker 2:No, just for those people that are listening and maybe do recognize that they've maybe lost their way. I mean, this podcast talks a lot about courage and bravery and I would say there is nothing more courageous or brave than recognizing. Maybe, if there is and my guess is you're going to be surrounded by friends that are going to lost your way and then doing the work to get back on track. My utmost respect for those people that maybe have recognized there's drift in a particular area and then do the work to get back and cheering for you in that journey.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you so much. Yes, do the work that is the hard part right, and thank you, thank you for listening. Do the work, that is the hard part right, and thank you. Thank you for listening to the Once we Dare podcast. It is an honor to share these encouraging stories with you. If you enjoy the show, I would love for you to tell your friends. Leave us a reviewer rating and subscribe to wherever you listen to podcasts, because this helps others discover the show. You can find me on my website, speckhopoffcom.