Beauty At Work
Beauty at Work expands our understanding of beauty: what it is, how it works, and why it matters. Sociologist Brandon Vaidyanathan interviews scientists, artists, entrepreneurs, and leaders across diverse fields to reveal new insights into how beauty shapes our brains, behaviors, organizations, and societies--for good and for ill. Learn how to harness the power of beauty in your life and work, while avoiding its pitfalls.
Beauty At Work
Connecting Earth and Sky with Dr. Nalini Nadkarni (Part 2 of 2)
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Nalini Nadkarni’s unique academic career interweaves her scientific research on rainforest canopy biota with innovative public engagement. She has written 150 scientific papers and books on the composition and ecological roles of canopy-dwelling communities, supported by the National Science Foundation and the National Geographic Society. She also engages with those who do not or cannot gain access to science education, including faith-based groups, artists, corporations, and people who are incarcerated. Her work is featured in journals ranging from Science to Playboy, and in public media such as Science Friday, Wait, Wait, Don’t Tell Me, and RadioLab. In 2023, the National Geographic Society named her as one of their ten “Explorers at Large.” Her awards include a Guggenheim Fellowship, the AAAS Award for Public Engagement, the National Science Foundation Award for Public Service, The Rachel Carson Award for Conservation, The Wilson Award for the Advancement of Social Justice, and the Archie Carr Medal for Conservation.
In this second part of our conversation, Nalini discusses:
- How she created "Treetop Barbie" and overcame Mattel's attempts to stop her
- Partnering with faith groups to emphasize the spiritual value of trees
- Involving inmates in meaningful conservation work
- Leveraging impact investment for sustainable ecological funding
To learn more about Nalini’s work:
- https://www.nalininadkarni.com/
- https://explorers.nationalgeographic.org/directory/nalini-m-nadkarni
Follow us on social media for more updates:
- Twitter: @brvnathan
- Instagram: @brvnathan
Subscribe to our newsletter for exclusive early access to episodes: www.beautyatwork.net
This episode is sponsored by the John Templeton Foundation (https://www.templeton.org/) and Templeton Religion Trust (https://templetonreligiontrust.org/).
Then Mattel heard about it. And they called me up and they said, You can't do this. You're encroaching on our brand. And I said, You know, I gave you, I'd be happy to give you this idea. I'm not making any money off it. Go ahead and use it. And they said, No, no, no, no, no. You can't do it. We're going to shut you down. I said, Oh, you know, I have some journalist friends who'd be really interested in learning that Mattel is trying to shut down a small brown woman from inspiring little girls to go into science.
SPEAKER_00I'm Brandon Vaginathan, and this is Beauty at Work, a podcast that seeks to expand our understanding of beauty, what it is, how it works, and why it matters for the work we do. This season of the podcast is sponsored by John Templeton Foundation and Templeton Religion Trust. Hey everyone, this is the second half of my conversation with biologist Melini Nutzgarney. Please check out the first half if you haven't already. Nelini came to be known as Queen of the Forest Canopy for her pioneering research on canopy biota. Last week we heard about what drew her into her line of research and some of her most significant discoveries and challenges. In this episode, she talks about her remarkable public engagement work, including the work she did with prisoners, religious communities, and artists, as well as her tussle with Mattel after she created Treetop Barbie. Let's get started. Well, I want to ask you about the tremendous public engagement work you've you've been doing the last few years, and there are a lot of strands here, but I'd love to hear about treetop Barbie first. Because that was the most that was the most fun thing that I that I came across.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, I guess it was sort of 20 years into my scientific career, climbing trees, publishing papers, going to conferences, talking to other scientists, getting grants for canopy research, that I became, as so many tropical biologists have done, became aware of the human activities that are negatively affecting rainforest ecology. So deforestation, forest fragmentation, invasive species, climate change, all of these things are having negative effects on the forest. And in some ways, I could justify that I was doing something by publishing my papers and talking at conferences. But I also realized that, you know, I need to do, I need to do something more than only that, important as that is to contribute to the scientific record. And so I thought, well, what can I do? And I actually I tried a little bit of talking to policymakers, you know, going on the hill and talking to senators, and like I was terrible at it. They always want to know, is this a yes or a no? How many species are going to go extinct at what year? And blah, blah, blah. And I just couldn't stand it. But I felt like, well, I'm an extrovert. I'm uh, you know, a brown woman climbing trees in tropical rainforests. I mean, how fun is that? So I thought maybe my contribution could be to do public engagement and to engage the public, inspire them, inform them, excite them, motivate them to take some sort of action to protect forests. That could be my role. So I started embarking on that. I started giving talks at museums and writing articles for natural history museums, being in films, you know, national geographic films and stuff. And then I realized, you know, this is great, this is fun, this is easy. But the people who watch National Geographic, the people who read natural history magazines, the people who go to a museum to hear a lecture, they already know how important trees are. So I'm not really like doing anything more than that. And that's when I began thinking about how can I get to other kinds of people who might not have access to a museum, who might not pick up a National Geographic. And I began thinking about my own childhood, how I got connected and stuck on trees when I was a little girl. But you look at urban cities today, there are no trees to climb. And so, what else could I use to connect little girls with trees? And of course, the answer was Barbie, because pretty much every little girl around the world, urban or rural, um, loves little Barbie and uses it as a something that they want to identify as. I want to be like Barbie when I grow up. But our Barbie model is proms and accessories and uh getting a boyfriend named Ken. And so I thought, well, what if I made a, you know, I tweaked Barbie and and and dressed her in my field clothes with a little helmet and a little booklet about canopy plants and a crossbow. And um, so I I knocked on the door of Mattel and they said, no, we're not interested at all. You can have this idea. This is where you'll get a whole nother group of customers. So that was back in 2004. And um, once again, there was something in me that said, I think there's something here was that tree. Like, I want to move, I want to inspire little girls to climb trees. And so my students and I began buying Barbies, used Barbies from Goodwill stores. We engaged these volunteer seamstresses to sew her little clothes. We got helmets on eBay, we made a little pamphlet about canopy plants, and I began just selling them on my little stupid academic website, you know, which nobody sees. But anyway, we began selling them and with a little booklet about canopy plants. Anyway, it was written up in the New York Times. Um, and then Mattel heard about it. And they called me up and they said, You can't do this, you're encroaching on our brand. And I said, You know, I gave you, I'd be happy to give you this idea. I'm not making any money off it. Go ahead and use it. And they said, No, no, no, no, no, you can't do it. We're gonna shut you down. I said, Oh, you know, I have some journalist friends who would be really interested in learning that Mattel is trying to shut down a small brown woman from inspiring little girls to go into science.
SPEAKER_00Perfect.
SPEAKER_03So they said, okay, never mind, never mind. You can go ahead. They wouldn't put it in writing, but they let me go ahead and sell them. Anyway, 15 years later, I got a call from National Geographic. They had partnered with Mattel, and they said, we are starting a new line called Explore Barbies, and we'd like you to be on the advisory committee. We're gonna have an entomologist Barbie, a polar scientist Barbie, a wildlife, you know, photographer Barbie. So I was uh an advisor, and as a thank you, they gave me a one-of-a-kind Melini Look-alike treetop Barbie, which is now in my lab, which I'm very proud of. But I think the the story behind that is really not so much this idea or anything. It means that over the course of 15 years, there are more and more little girls who want role models that are like an explorer and not just the prom Barbie. And so to me, that's a really hopeful, wonderful thing that girls who are looking for something to long for, what am I going to be? Who am I now and who will I be in the future? I long to be someone who's important, who's beautiful, who's who's an explorer. And so now they have something that that fits that. And so I feel that, you know, I feel hopeful and optimistic that my sense of longing for little girls to grow up thinking about doing something for trees has been helped by this big corporation that I thought so badly about. And yet they were actually doing something powerful and something positive to fulfill that sense of longing of myself and of these little girls.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Wow, it's amazing.
SPEAKER_00Talk about the work you you've been doing with with the religious communities in terms of um connecting your research to the sacredness of trees.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, that also came from this sense of wanting to motivate, inspire, and inform people who might not believe in evolution, for example, or go to a natural history museum because it doesn't promote their beliefs. But they still might have a belief that trees are important. And so, although, as I mentioned earlier, you know, my religious background is this weird mix of Hinduism and Orthodox Judaism, so I didn't really know that much about the dominant religion of Christianity in our society. But I was aware, even I was aware of, you know, you open the Bible and their first page of Genesis are two very important trees, the tree of life and the tree of knowledge and of good and evil. And so I decided to use religious authorities as my data set rather than drawing on the science and trying to cram it down, try it, cram it down the throats of religious people who might reject it because they just reject science, you know. So I downloaded the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Talmud, the Quran, the Bhagavad Gita from the web. I did a search for all the word, the word tree and forest, and I found like in the Old Testament, there are 328 references to trees and forests. And they're all positive. So I categorized them into like, you know, uh practical use, uh adornment of temples, uh location descriptors, analogies to God, and I did this with all the religious texts that I could find. And I also started looking at the rituals and celebrations. Like the Jews have this wonderful holiday called Tub Shabbat, a celebration of the new year for trees. It was originally started for taxing purposes of the fruit, but it's turned into this holiday that celebrates trees and promotes tree planting for Jews in Israel and in our communities. So I pulled together these thoughts, these ideas, this data really about the importance and values of trees from the standpoint of religion and spirituality, put it together in a sermon, and then started knocking on doors of churches and saying, Hey, I'm a scientist, but I've read your text, your religious text, and I'd like to deliver a sermon about trees and spirituality. Of course, the Unitarians were the ones let me in first. Um, but after that I got sort of passed on to Presbyterians and Episcopalians and Catholics and Muslims, and and so I've given this sermon in over 40 places of worship. That led to some trusting relationships between the congregate congregants and the clergy and myself, which then led us to map trees and churchyards because I figured, you know, if churches are sacred, maybe the churchyards are sacred, maybe the soils in the churchyards are sacred, and the trees that grow in the sacred soil are also sacred. So we mapped the trees and we made these little pamphlets about that had information about the biology of those species in the churchyards, but also scriptural references to those trees, and we gave them out to congregations. And that led to giving lectures and seminaries. It led to a conversation that I was able to have with the Archbishop of Canterbury, who's the spiritual leader of 83 million Anglicans and Episcopalians. He wanted to learn more about ecological justice. So I, here I am, this little tiny ecologist, you know, talking to this very powerful religious leader about the precepts of ecological justice and why trees are important to all of us. And so he took that information, he's incorporated it into his teachings, he's written a book in which he's included that. And so, so it's this thread then of starting very small with just respecting the religious texts of given religions, which I myself do not believe in. I'm I'm not a religious person myself. Um, and so when I read the Bible, I I can read it and I can understand it. I may not promote it or and I so so the point is, I guess, I don't have to become an Episcopalian. I don't have to become a Baptist to find common ground of longing to understand the world, the spiritual world, the religious world, the biological world. But if we can, we don't have to, we don't have to be of the same faith, but we can still agree that trees are pretty cool and pretty important for lots of reasons. So let's start protecting them together. So we've also started doing bio blitzes and tree planting on church grounds. And again, I bring my biology students, they bring their church goers, and we don't have to argue about does God exist or what does, you know, what do I believe in or you believe in, or did you vote for Trump, or did you vote for Biden? We can just say, I'm really happy that I planted 10 trees today with you, and I'm gonna come back and visit them and make sure that they're healthy, and I hope I might see you when I do that. So that there's been that so there's a a personal sense of of connection which has been created by the agreement that trees are important to all of us for whatever reasons they might be.
SPEAKER_00That's amazing. Is there anything you've learned in this in this interaction with sort of faith leaders, faith communities, uh scriptural texts, and so on, that that's that's informed anything about the way you look at trees or or your own sort of spiritual?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah, yeah, great. You know, I always think, oh, every time I give a talk to bloggers or artists or you know, these other groups that aren't scientists, and I wonder what question they're gonna ask that's gonna spark some sort of scientific, you know, my next grant. And so far I haven't really found anything. But what it has revealed to me, I think, Brandon, is especially the religious groups, it's revealed to me my own prejudices. Like I remember at this Baptist church I went to and I was giving this sermon about trees and spirituality, and one of the members of the church came up to me and said, Oh, Dr. Notcarney, could I get your email? And I said, Oh God, here it comes. He's gonna proselytize me to become a Baptist. And so I said, You know, I'm not gonna become a Baptist. My mother was Jewish, I am not a religious person. He said, Oh no, I wasn't gonna proselytize you. I want you to know if you and your students might want to join us on a tree planting that we've already organized. Wow. And I realized, holy moly, he is so far ahead of me in terms of actually doing something for trees. And I made the assumption that he was just gonna try to push his stuff on me. And so that has stuck with me because it means to me that I have to be intellectually humble. I have to practice what people call intellectual humility, that we can't make the assumption that people are gonna shove stuff on us that we don't want. We need to go into every situation that involves some kind of interaction with as open a mind as possible. And I think that's a really important precept for pub for successful public engagement, but also just in life, that we shouldn't make assumptions about each other that might mar the possibility of finding common ground.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, wow, that's amazing. Um you've also been working with with prisoners. Uh could you say a little bit about that?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So when I began thinking about public engagement and, you know, attracting little girls and religious people and artists and so forth, I began thinking, well, tactically, who which population should I really focus on? And I realized I should probably focus on people who don't have access to nature at all. Well, who are those people? Well, obviously, it's the 2.3 million adults and the 55,000 incarcerated youth that exist in our country. And they live and work in places that are basically devoid of nature, inside prisons, county jails, tribal jails, and juvenile detention centers. Part of the punishment, intentional or not, is that not only are they kept away from earning a living or learning new skills, they're also kept away from interacting day-to-day with nature. And so I started a science lecture series in a local minimum security prison, and it the reaction was so fabulous. Like the guys were so curious, so interested, and so informed. They already knew so much about you know different topics that they may not have the same scientific vocabulary, but they were really, really engaged. So I brought in more scientists to give talks, and that led to our developing conservation projects inside prisons, where we brought we collaborated with groups like um the Washington Division of Fish and Wildlife, who had an ongoing program to rear the endangered uh organ-spotted frog in captivity from egg to tadpole to adults, and then they released the adults and protected wetlands to build up the communities and the population sizes of these of these endangered species. So the guys started raising these frogs. They did a great job, just a fantastic job. They got the award for the best captive rearing facility in Washington State two years in a row. Um we started then interacting with other conservation groups with the Nature Conservancy to re have the men grow 300,000 plugs of endangered prairie plants for outplanting. We worked with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to rear the endangered checkerspot, tailored checkerspot butterfly, um, and various other, you know, building bird nesting boxes for the American kestrel whose populations are declining across North America, and basically engaging the populations of people who are incarcerated, men, women, and youth, um, in participating hands-on to develop these groups of endangered species that could then raise the populations of groups that are outside and not protected. And so it was a lesson for me and a lesson for all of us, I think, that instead of throwing away this population of people that are regarded by society as just trash and garbage and they cost us money and they're bad people, here was a group of people who, when given the opportunity, when given a tiny bit of training and some encouragement and treated like my grad student or you know, anybody who's participating in a conservation project, that they too can be contributors and that in fact the primary motivation of the inmates in in the surveys that we gave them, we were trying to evaluate the effects on the inmates, uh, was the it wasn't the training for getting a STEM job and the, you know, when they get back into society, it wasn't for the m miserable amount of money that they earn when they are working inside prisons. It was the opportunity to contribute. The idea that even though they are incarcerated, even though they have been told that they're worthless and they're not worth any trouble, that they were actually contributing something that's bigger than the prison they were in, bigger than their own self, bigger than their family, as big as the earth. And maybe that's about longing too, which is about the longing to contribute, which I think is at the core of kindness, it's at the core of reciprocity, it's at the core of doing good, is this very human sense. Even for people like those who are incarcerated and have been convicted of a crime that that wasn't contributing to society, that there's something that happened when they got contact with nature, with those frogs, with the butterflies, with the the prairie plants, with the nesting boxes that said, I am and I want to contribute more.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's extraordinary. Wow. You had also mentioned doing work with artists, and I and I think you've also had, if I remember hearing uh about maybe um bringing people to the forest who had never encountered trees before. Was it was it inuit communities? What did you what was that experience about?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so that that stemmed from this idea that, oh my gosh, artists create beauty and think, make us think about beauty. They are so powerful. I mean, they don't earn much money, let's face it, but they're still very powerful, important members. So I thought, and also that they don't use the same tools and approaches that scientists do, and yet they can really communicate well. And not just the emotion, they can also contribute content, I think artists can. And so I decided to bring um artists to the canopy for a week at a time. I call them canopy confluences. So I engaged a group of forest ecologists like me, some visual artists, uh, some poets, um musicians, uh, to come to the canopy for a week at a time. We had these little platforms that we put into the canopy. I taught them all how to climb trees, and they made art and they made music and they made rap songs and they made amazing visual art of how they perceive and come to understand this universe that we talked about, this different universe that they saw when they were spending days up on these little platforms. But I also wanted to get insights from what I was calling canopy novices, people who have never seen trees or the canopy before. And so I invited two Inuits from Nunavut up high in the Arctic, who literally have not seen trees before, and also two blind people who haven't seen trees before. And we brought them into one of these kind these canopy confluences, and it was fantastic to see how quickly like the Inuits who had no word for the word tree, they call them trees are called uh nabaktuk, which means pole, and a forest is nabaktuk du eat, which means many poles. So they didn't, you know, they didn't have a vocabulary for words, just like we don't have a vocabulary for the many kinds of snow that they probably do up in the Arctic. And it within a week they came to understand, I think, the importance of trees and the canopy in human lives. At the last little campfire, every evening we'd have a campfire and sort of talk about what we had come to understand or what the art we made or the moss collection we made. And Emil, one of the one of the Inuits, you know, he said, Well, in this week I've learned the importance of trees from you. Um, and he showed us this picture he had made with this stone cairn, and behind it was a tree that looked sort of like a pole, actually. And and we said, Well, what's that what's that stone thing? And he said, Well, this marks our way. These are the wayfinders that we set up in the tundra because we don't have anything else. We do we stack up these stones. And I've learned that trees and for you guys are wayfinders, they help you find your way, just like the stone cairns find our way. And that's why I put them together my stone cairn and your tree. And he said, We think that you should treat your trees the way we treat our elders with more respect than my. What you do. And I think coming from someone who until that week had never been in a forest, who had never climbed a tree, who had never encountered a tall, majestic cedar tree that the rest of us had, it was a really powerful statement of how quickly he came to understand the importance of trees in our lives, maybe even in a way that we hadn't realized ourselves. And so I think that that experience of bringing someone from the outside who doesn't have even vocabulary, who hasn't had long experience, can be a valuable, maybe uniquely valuable spokesperson or have insights that those of us who are familiar with what we see around us all the time might be.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Wow, it's amazing.
SPEAKER_00Nalini, what are you what are you longing for these days? What are you yearning for? What's on the horizon uh as as you move forward?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, great. That's a good question. A couple things. Um, you know, I retired a couple years ago from my active faculty position, so I'm not teaching anymore or doing faculty meetings, and it's so wonderful. But I've been appointed as a National Geographic explorer at large, so I get access to the amazing world of media and information and photographs and explorers that National Geographic supports. So I've been spending time, I'm gonna be doing a tour, um, an international tour about trees, giving presentation about trees uh in Canada and the USA for the next three years, which I'm really excited about. But I've also been thinking about long-term support for ecological people and programs and projects. And in my experience of gaining support from my work, you know, it either comes from National Science Foundation, you know, a science agency that lets you ask a very narrow scientific question and test it, and then when you have the answer, you publish it, and then that's it for that grant, or it comes from philanthropy, and very often those grants are short-term, and then they move on to something other than that. So what I've decided to work on and explore is longer-term funding from impact investors. And there's an institution on our institute on our campus called the Sorens and Impact Institute, which basically herds together global leaders in impact investing. Impact investing are people who want to invest their money in projects that do both social or environmental good and have some financial return so that there's the possibility for long-term sustainable funding for programs that have demonstrated that they're successful in some sort of social or ecological good. So, my work is with the institute now, I've become a senior fellow there, is to try to connect projects that are doing really great ecological programs, people who are doing great things for the environment, but connect them with impact investors who are trying to find projects like that. So it's a it's a, you know, this institute is in the college of business, which is like, what, what? I'm surrounded by all these weird business people. But they've been so kind and open and really, I really believe that they're not just about greenwashing. They really sincerely want to contribute, just like those inmates who wanted to raise frogs and get a sense of contribution. So if I can be with my long career, my lot, you know, I've got lots of contacts in the ecological world, if I can be a connector in that way, I think that's that's kind of what my sense of contribution is right now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Is there any advice you might have for helping people who, you know, might sort of romantically look at trees and say, well, those it's those are those are lovely things out there to be better connected to to this important, you know, vital source of life.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I you know, I think really, you know, very often when we think about environmental problems or social problems on our planet, they're just so gigantic we get we fall into despair instead of hope. And I think for me, what's important is to know that there are that we can contribute in little short, small ways if we do it collectively. So I would say to people like, you know, well, I'll I'll tell you some math I did. There are 350 people, 350 million people in our country. There are 6.2 scientists and conservationists. So if you do the division, it turns out that if every scientist spoke to just 52 people a year, that's one person a week, we will have had a discussion about nature or about trees and about how great trees are with every single person in our country. So when you talk to your barista, you know, when you're getting your latte on Monday morning, say, hey, you know about shade grown coffee, how important trees are to maintaining birds in in coffee plantation. You talk to your Uber driver, hey, what about an electric vehicle, you know, and all the carbon dioxide story and so forth. Um, sometimes what I do is I get my fingernails painted. I'm not a fingernail person, but a lot of people pay attention to fingernails. So I get them painted with little trees on them. So not only do I get a great conversation with a manicurist about trees in Vietnam, if she's from if she's from Vietnam, but every time a young woman looks at my nails and goes like, oh wow, then we get to have this great conversation about what's your favorite tree and how important trees are. And so that's, you know, check, that's my one person a week. So I would say to people, whatever religion, whatever you do for a living, whatever kind of art you make, whatever kinds of investments you're making, one of the things that we all can do is engage each other with conversation about the positive aspect of trees. And once people understand, once they take in that something is valuable to them, they will figure out how to protect it. I don't have to tell them to join this group or that group. They'll figure it out. But what we need to do is to be aware of the value of trees or some aspect of nature or society, and then we will start moving towards protecting it, each in his or her own way, with his or her own organization or hobby group or money that they have in the bank. And so it's not up to me to decide how to do that for them. But it can be something that I can urge people to do, which is just to keep the groundswell of understanding and appreciation for these silent sedentary organisms that seem on the outskirts of our life to bring them to the inskirts.
SPEAKER_00Wow. Well, that's that's fantastic. It sounds like it, you know, very early in your life you were invited into a relationship with with trees, and then they sent you on a mission, and here you are bringing this to you know so much fruition.
SPEAKER_03Um isn't that amazing?
SPEAKER_00It's fantastic. Yeah. Is there any anything else you want to you want to add? I I don't have any more questions for you, but anything else on this on this theme of beauty and and yearning uh you know in relation to your work.
SPEAKER_03I think you've covered pretty much everything. If I could end with this wonderful poem that brings me home when I read it. It's by Michael Glazer, it's called The Presence of Trees. I have always felt the living presence of trees, the forest that calls to me as deeply as I breathe, as though the woods were marrow of my bone, as though I myself were tree, a breathing reaching arc of the larger canopy, beside a brook bubbling to foam like the one deep in these woods that calls, that whispers home. And all of us have a longing for home, don't we? Whether it's the home we grew up in, or the home we've created, or the home we hope to create. And I think trees can be home.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Amazing.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much. Um, where can we direct our our viewers and listeners to to learn more about your work?
SPEAKER_03Uh you could come to my website, uh, which is www.nalini notkarni.com. No dots. All right.
SPEAKER_00We'll put that in the yeah, that would be great. The links there. Wonderful. Thank you so much. This has been such a good thing. Welcome.
SPEAKER_03Thank you, Brandon, for your work and for this interview. I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00My pleasure. All right, folks, that's a wrap for this episode. If you enjoyed the episode, please share it with someone who would find it of interest. Also, please subscribe and leave us a review if you haven't already. Thanks, and see you next time.