Beauty At Work
Beauty at Work expands our understanding of beauty: what it is, how it works, and why it matters. Sociologist Brandon Vaidyanathan interviews scientists, artists, entrepreneurs, and leaders across diverse fields to reveal new insights into how beauty shapes our brains, behaviors, organizations, and societies--for good and for ill. Learn how to harness the power of beauty in your life and work, while avoiding its pitfalls.
Beauty At Work
Longing for Belonging - with Ron Ivey and Monika Jiang (Part 2 of 2)
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This episode is a conversation with two experts combating our current loneliness crisis: Ron Ivey and Monika Jiang.
Ron Ivey is a writer, researcher, and strategic advisor to business, governments, and philanthropies with a focus on social trust, belonging, and human flourishing. Ron is currently the Managing Director of the Humanity 2.0 Institute and a Research Fellow at the Harvard Human Flourishing Program where he co-leads the Trust and Belonging Initiative. Ron also currently serves as a Fellow at the Centre for Public Impact, a global think tank seeking to re-imagine government and restore relationships between governments and those they govern. In 2017, Ron established a consultancy, Rembrandt Collective, to shape business strategies for trust, alignment and social impact.
Monika Jiang, a second-generation Chinese immigrant, has always walked the line between feeling estranged and belonging. Her journey, marked by oscillations between aloneness, loneliness, and connection, has profoundly influenced her personal and professional life, shaping her into a visionary who senses what wants to emerge as we move closer to ourselves, each other, and the world. Professionally, Monika has made a significant impact at the House of Beautiful Business. Here, she helped build a global community of 50,000 members dedicated to a life-centered economy. Monika’s deep desire to move from loneliness to oneliness inspired her to found the initiative Sharing Our Loneliness. This initiative aims to raise awareness about the paradoxical power of loneliness to reconnect us with ourselves and others. Through intimate gatherings, writing, and speaking engagements, Monika cultivates spaces for dialogue, connection, and community, addressing loneliness as a personal, collective, and societal challenge. Additionally, she is a teacher in training with Humanize, an evidence-based program focused on fostering emotional and social skills, and she practices these skills based on social neuroscientific research at the Max-Planck Institute in Berlin.
In this second part of our conversation, we talk about:
- The need to create cities with shared spaces
- The stigma of discussing the shame and suffering that comes with loneliness
- Embracing the discomfort of loneliness
- How AI and new technologies are shaping loneliness and belonging
- The connection between awe and loneliness
To learn more about Monika’s work, you can find her at:
Website: https://www.monikajiang.org/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/monika.jiang/
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/monika-jiang/
To learn more about Ron’s work, you can find him at:
X: https://x.com/ronivey
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/monika.jiang/
Linkedin: https://fr.linkedin.com/in/ron-ivey-0bb9a33
This episode is sponsored by the John Templeton Foundation (https://www.templeton.org/) and
the Templeton Religion Trust (https://templetonreligiontrust.org/)
If we're conditioned by beauty to see whole and wholeness, to see harmony, to see uniqueness, which seem to be the patterns in beauty. You're the expert, so I'll turn back to you. But uh, if those are the things we see in beauty and experience in beauty, that also is the way that we develop relationships. We see the whole person. You know, you encounter each other, you know, you encounter some of the dark sides of other people, and you see that that's actually part of their beauty. You know, it's the the asymmetry and the symmetry kind of together in one person. So I think being in environments that don't affirm that, whether that's public beauty or not having access to truly beautiful art, I think may be part of why we're so alienated. Because we don't we're not conditioned to see these things and value them and then live based on those values.
SPEAKER_01I'm Brandon Vidinathan, and this is Beauty at Work, the podcast that seeks to expand our understanding of beauty, what it is, how it works, and why it matters for the work we do. This season of the podcast is sponsored by John Templeton Foundation and Templeton Religion Trust. Hey everyone, this is the second half of my conversation with Ron Ivey and Monica Jang on loneliness and belonging. Please check out the first half if you haven't already. Ron and Monica are both combating the loneliness crisis of our times in different ways. In the first part of our conversation, we talked about systemic factors and cultural differences. In this episode, we'll talk about the impact of new technologies on loneliness, the relationship between alienation and loneliness, and some practical solutions to this crisis. Let's get started. Ron, I want to ask you if you could say a bit about uh some of these the new challenges that you're working on that that relate to AI and new technologies and how they shape or maybe prey on our, I guess, our our our needs, right? Our longings for connection and and what have you seen in that space? And and maybe the other thing I would also like to ask you about is which which is in relation to this, is there are forms of belonging that are healthy and forms of belonging that are unhealthy, right? And and you could look at, I mean, you know, maybe a more extreme example would be, you know, the the kind of transnational gangs in in in Central America, MS 13, MS 18, which which you know draw a lot of youth who are isolated and you know from their community, they're alienated from their communities, they're looking for respect, they're looking for belonging, and they find in these gangs a source of belonging, and and yet that's something that you know at maybe maybe at a at a micro and a miso level they they provide that belonging and then also they cause a lot of social damage. Yeah. So there are two different things, but I think there's there's a connection between what you're seeing with some of the ways in which various AI firms are trying to capitalize on this loneliness crisis and the kind of unhealthy modes of belonging they might generate.
SPEAKER_03Well, maybe I start with kind of the unhealthy, healthy, and then go to the AI. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I'd say what's nice about kind of situating the belonging work, the trust and belonging work inside the human flourishing program is this larger frame of you know, questions about the good life, questions about how we flourish, course questions about well-being, you know, people have different language, even within our own, you know, even within the English culture, we have different ways of talking about that that concept of the good life. Um, but uh, you know, having that kind of orientation of, okay, what types of belonging and social connection actually move me in a direction of you know, greater physical health and mental health, greater, you know, my own character development, my own sense of virtue, which people again people use different language around that. But most people, it's kind of ubiquitous that people talk about I want to be a good person, you know, I want to be a better person. Um, some people have an aversion to character virtue, which there's good reason for that. There's some you know historical reasons for that. But what kind of relationships and community helps me uh understand uh truth, understands both the subjective truth about myself and uh kind of the authenticity of myself, but then also the truth about my world. And that's one of the things that I was really fascinated by in Marcus Corbyn's work is this relationship between friendship and truth, and how uh you know, yes, loneliness is bad for your health, yes, loneliness is is you know risky for some of these other things, but it's also it's also if we're really chronically lonely, and we see this in solitary confinement, our understanding of the world and our ability to make worlds and and make and perceive worlds, we really need first our family and then our friends in our community and our local community to try to help us understand that. And when you have people that are pulled out of that and don't have community, don't have relationship, don't have family, their perception of what is what is true but and also what is good for themselves and for the larger community starts to degrade. And uh I think you see that in the political context right now in France. You know, I think there's a you know, there's a high degree of social isolation and loneliness here. And you see the susceptibility to kind of these political dynamics, both on the far left and far right, where you have very charismatic leaders that are calling people into a bigger collective. I mean, this is not a new phenomenon. We've seen this before. Uh and Hannah Rent wrote about it, you know, in the last century that when people are really isolated, they're very susceptible to charismatic leaders, whether that's a gang leader or a uh you know, leader of a political party. We see that in the United States as well. So I'd say that's that's a dynamic. And then you've got the tech industry, which uh you know has uh to some degree, you know, it's not the the the the only cause of the low-in-less epidemic, but it's one driving force in terms of smartphones and and social media. Um they both they have kind of positive and negative effects, you know, but for a large part of our population, they've had a negative effect in terms of social connectedness. Now you have you know one of the most lucrative parts of the AI, you know, B2C, you know, where they're selling directly to consumers, the development of these AI companions that are mimicking human language, human uh you know, human faces, etc. I mean they're they'll get more and more sophisticated as the years go by and are um really addressing that need for connection, but through uh the mimicry of of a human being in either you know a a um AI form, chat chatbot form, uh, and there are other you know robotic forms that are being developed. There's a big debate about it. Monica's facilitated a really good discussion about this. Uh we've we've been part of other conversations about as well. And I think we're so early in the game that part of the challenge is just trying to understand what questions should we be asking. How do we know, again, going back to flourishing or the good life? How do we know if the interactions with these things are helping us become better people, you know, improving our mental health or becoming a detriment? We really don't have the best frameworks and ways to understand the impact of these things on our lives. So that's that's the risk. They're the speed at which they're being launched and developed and deployed before we really understand the impact. Uh, I think that there's a worry that we're gonna have a uh you know, a round two of what we saw with social media and smartphones when a population's already lonely, you know. And so that has implications for people understanding what's true, what's real, etc., even even more intensely when they're not engaging with a real thing, a real person. So that's the bigger kind of existential questions that we're we're gonna have to ask.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Could you could you just say a little bit about what you think might be ways to address this this problem? Because I, you know, certainly the the the market is there and and there are going to be a lot of firms that are gonna be per parasitic on these needs of ours. Um what what kinds of solutions do you see?
SPEAKER_03Well, I mean, I think in the in the early days of the internet it was all about user responsibility. And I I don't think that's the answer. But I do think there is you know a part of that, you know, where where individuals are gonna have to be uh intelligent about how to engage with these things. At the next level, I think there's you know, the the product designers, the the CEOs themselves, uh I think there's going to be those inside the industry that are going to be a little bit more enlightened about it and try to understand these questions, and then others that are already demonstrating they really don't care. They just really, it's the primary objective for them is their their shareholder returns. And so for that part of the industry, we need the countervailing force of other institutions, civil society, religious community, and then uh ultimately you need you know regulatory frameworks, both at the national and the global level, that you know address some of the players that are just not interested in human flourishing, good life, well-being, whatever you, whatever your category is, they they really don't care. It's not that they're some of them, not as they're always malicious, it's just that they just don't see it and they don't value it. Back to my earlier experience with the government, it's just it's just not even in the in the viewfinder for them.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So I think that's it's multiple levels of of responsibility that we have to quickly develop muscles that we don't quite have yet.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, thanks, Ron. Um how much of the problem of loneliness do you do do you think is a problem of alienation, right? And whether it's alienation from each other, alienation from ourselves, right? From that ability to get in touch with what really matters, to to to even face our existential questions. Um alienation from nature, Ron. I mean, you were talking about the beautiful mountains that that you were you know that you encountered. And I think it would be hard to be lonely in the sort of negative sense in which we mean it, uh alienated, right, perhaps, um, when when we're in you know deep connection with nature. And then maybe you know the fourth factor could be something like a transcendent higher power, God, you know, something like that, right? That a sense of connection to the universe, as some people might call it. But but it seems like at least those four components of self, other nature, and and and a transcendent uh source or or power uh are important for us to connect to. And and whether whether or not we're physically alone, um, we could be alienated from any of those. And I and I wonder how much that's getting at the the heart of the problem here, or whether there's something else.
SPEAKER_03No, I think that's it. I mean, you know, when you first sent out the questions, that was one of the first words that came to my mind was this word of alienation. You know, I've been one of the thinkers that's really formed me over the last few years is uh is a psychiatrist, Ian McGilchrist, um, who was a literature professor uh at Oxford and then became a psychiatrist and studied the the left and right hemispheres. I won't go into all that, but I'd say what what I've really learned from him is that and then also his kind of reflections on the philosopher Max Sheller, is that our our ability to perceive what's valuable in those relationships, our ability to perceive the value of the sacred, the value of the other, the value of the beautiful, which I you know, I love your whole framing of everything around beauty, those nature, etc., those things are all values that I think have gotten subsumed into utilitarianism and uh use, utility, pleasure, my individual use cases, whatever that is. Um, and so I'd say that's for me, when I'm looking across all this, I see loneliness is totally interconnected to our alienation from those other things. And I do think one of the things I'd be excited to talk to you all about is this that this beauty, what's the role of beauty in addressing loneliness? I think part of what I've struggled with within the the loneliness community, research community, that sounds like an oxymoron, but uh they they there's sometimes we get a little bit too focused on the kind of instrumental ways to solve this problem. And it's really how we got here in the first place. So is the transcendent, whether that's beauty or something else, is that really one of the pathways we need to be giving more serious thought to? That's I I yeah, I'm I'm really interested in in how those things connect because I think just looking at McGilkers' work, if we're conditioned by beauty to see whole and wholeness and to see harmony, to see uniqueness, which you know seem to be the patterns in beauty. You're the you're the expert, so I'll turn back to you. But uh, if those are the things we see in beauty and experience in beauty, that also is the way that we develop relationships. We see the whole person. You know, you encounter each other, you know, you encounter some of the dark sides of other people, and you see that that's actually part of their beauty, you know, it's is the the asymmetry and the symmetry kind of together in one person. So I think being in environments that don't affirm that, whether that's public beauty or not having access to truly beautiful art, I think may be part of why we're so alienated. Is we don't we're not conditioned to see these things and value them and then live live based on those values.
SPEAKER_01Monica, what do you think?
SPEAKER_00I love what you just said, Ron. I was like so resonant with that. Yeah, it reminds me of um, you know, awe, like wonder and awe. And I know that you had like Da Keltner on your your podcast, Brandon and um I co-hosted an event with Laura Francois, who is the co-founder of uh the Awe Exchange and kind of wanted to bridge awe and loneliness. And we didn't really prepare much for this event, and we um you know, we got together, we're friends, um, and uh we became became friends. And we noticed, wow, there's so many connections between awe and loneliness. And yes, my awe and like cultivating moments of wonder and awe, and in that there's a lot of right beauty, and and I also see beauty and in the spectrum, right? Not of just like aesthetically beautiful and perfection and like this is clean and and like vanilla, but like the the right, the the darkness and their shadows and symmetry, asymmetry, everything that you just said, Ron. And there's so much in that of like cultivating those moments of stillness, of like looking up to the sky, pausing a moment, zooming really in, right? Like doing basically what children are doing. Um, right? Just being like, no, I want to like stay here, like look at the ground, because there is like a small little worm that is like like gently, like slowly, slowly walking from one one into another. Like that's that's what captures my curiosity right now. Okay, let's do that, right? Like, but we as adults, as we grow older, we don't do that because we're so much in the in the doing all the time. So I think absolutely those those moments, um, right, where we can cultivate a different kind of connection to what's around us. And in that, also, I think understanding that we are indeed not separate, right? We are not separate from anything. We're not, we don't have to be uh alienated because we're not on the other side. It's like what our um friend, our mutual friend Wakani Hoffman, is is saying, right, who's who's bringing the Ubuntu philosophy actually into the context of AI at the at the new institute in Hamburg. Anyway, she talks, right, about this this there, there is no conception of separateness. There is just one all, one liness. It's like it's we, everything that I am is is what we are, right? There's just a we, there's an interconnectedness. And I think if we come closer to that sense of viewing and understanding us as humans as you know, small and find some humility in that, uh, I think that that could really help uh in in terms of how we how we cope with those moments of of loneliness as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. What uh questions do you all have for each other? Because you're both you're both working at tackling different aspects of this problem and and and also you know uh the resonant in many ways, but but I'd be curious if there are things you want to ask each other.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I'll do you mind if I go first, switch the order a bit.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Monica, I mean, I think one of the things I've always I've been excited about, our conversations and and just getting to know you, is you know what's my question is what's kind of practically working at the community level, and when you see people that you're engaging with uh that are struggling with loneliness, what are you seeing, how are they finding ways out of loneliness or staying in that loneliness and finding a way to find peace with it? What what's what are some of those practical pathways you're seeing in your work?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I guess I guess one thing that I'm seeing in my work, which is more on a um a different level, but I do think it's interesting that loneliness seems to be like a natural leveler for people to come together. And I think we need more of those. Like it's it's like beauty, it's like awe, it's like these kinds of like human experiences that you connect through on an emotional level, but you could also talk about it on a very intellectual level, of course. Um, and everybody, because it's so universal, like everybody knows what it is, and at the same time, there's a whole like space of curiosity of what is it for you and how do you, yeah, exactly, how do you deal with it? So I find that quite interesting that very different people feel you know, call to to connect through that experience almost, and that because of that, there is a there is more of a sense of being vulnerable. So that's maybe not as practical, but it is effective, like spaces that allow us to be soft and hard at the same time. And that first and foremost creates space for listening rather than talking. Um I've seen that that people have such a longing to be to be really heard because we're so surrounded by lots of messagings and talking and like opinions. So to give people an undivided attention for three minutes, right, and really listen to them without interrupting, without um wanting to give them advice, just being like, I'm here for you, I hear you. Yeah, right. I care, I'm coming from a sense of care. I think it's very, very powerful. And then and practicing this skill, right? And then I think doing things together, like activities. Uh, so joint activities that feel very light, uh I guess, right, and and also inviting, inclusive, where people have like fun playing almost, like where you're not so much in your mind, where you move, you dance, you sing, singing together. Oh my God, like nobody can sing, doesn't matter. Nobody can dance, doesn't matter, right? Like really involving your body, uh, going out into nature, right? Like look like being being surrounded by again, beauty and and awe. And then maybe uh the the last part, right? Like again, this different, this sense of differences. So learning from each other and people that you wouldn't normally uh interact with, much older people, uh, much younger people, uh, people from different classes, uh different different part of the city uh that you would normally not interact with because you are in your bubble. Um that uh it helps people to be like, oh, I'm first of all, I'm not alone in my loneliness. And also, again, I seem I see a little bit less or I feel a little bit less of that ego self and take myself as as something great and and whatever, but I see myself as part of as part of community and and something greater.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, even the way you you did that at our last event that we were together at the house of your beautiful business with the dance, uh, you know, that uh, you know, which is very hard for me to do, which but it was great. It was great. Uh but it it just created a completely different environment in the room. And I think the next event I was at after that, we didn't dance. It was a it was a bit too serious of a group to do that, but incorporating uh you know poetry, incorporating nature, incorporating, we had a someone help lead a song at the dinner that night. Um, all those things completely changed the dynamic to where people are are more connected to each other. So I'm learning from you, Monica, on how to how to bring these things into events.
SPEAKER_01Yeah no, that's that's really amazing. Monica, when you say people listening, listening to each other, what does that practically look like? Uh because one way I've tried to do it is through through through something like salon dinners where you have about you know 10 people at a table, each one shares a story for you know two or three minutes and everyone listens, um which which has its strengths and weaknesses as a form, but I'm curious as what the practical like form looks like where people are listening to each other that that that that you um that you have built.
SPEAKER_00So in my events, I I it's it really is like a fifteen minute uh maximum fifteen minute practice. Um so it's quite efficient, which we like. So It's efficient, but it's deep. So you go into pairs. I think one-on-one, right? One-on-one is a way that, again, to attention, to that point of attention, giving one person attention creates a little a little island of emotional intimacy and safety in a way. And then I usually have people reflect on two questions, right? Like one, the first one would be you know, tell me, tell me about an experience where you felt um, where you felt maybe alienated, alone, lonely, misunderstood, in some sense, right? And give them two and a half, three minutes to share. So one person starts, ends, the other person starts, ends, so and they listen to each other. Like one person always listens, obviously, and the other speaks. And then I shift the basically okay. Second prompt. Um, now tell me about an experience where you felt connected, right? Where you felt seen and heard.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then they do the same, the same practice. And just alone to give um this space of self-reflection, you know, and you're not having a real dialogue. It's not like, oh yeah, tell me more about that. No, it's just like everything that I want to share in those and can share in those two and a half, three minutes, I will share. And you are witnessing me in my self-reflection, right? And you're there for me, you're present for me. Uh, and that is very powerful. And also this shift, I guess, in from sort of the sense of disconnection and loneliness, and then this sense of connection can be again quite quite powerful in in the way that you that you feel after this, um, after this practice that is quite um quite short.
SPEAKER_01Amazing. Yeah, thanks. Monica, what question do you have for Ron?
SPEAKER_00So many. Uh um, what have you learned for yourself? Um, you know, having because I listened to you and I'm like, oh my gosh, there's such a well of experience and and knowledge. And what have you learned, I guess, for yourself as as you around this topic of both like loneliness as part of you know, flourishing and and having a good life?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's a great question. And we do kind of have a joke among our you know fellow researchers of like, are you how are you doing? Are you lonely? Are you you know how you do it? Yes. Um, but there's the truth to it too. I think every there's some there's some uh threads of all the people that are involved in it, like why they are so interested in it. But um, I'd say for me personally, you know, this particular season, I've you know, two kids under two. Uh it is a very isolate, physically isolating time period. And uh, you know, I I'm also an expat. Uh, our community that we had here that was uh French community, a lot of them left and moved to different cities during co after COVID. So for me, it's been a real you know, opposite of my experience in DC and in Oklahoma, where I had a very, very rich community experience. I've I've had a much more isolating experience in the last few years. And one of the things I've learned from the research and from you know people like you is uh the importance of just you know being a regular at a coffee shop, uh, you know, going and and uh you know there's a temptation to like try all the different you know coffee shops that are in the neighborhood, and there's quite a few. Um, but just going to the same one every day, you know, or every few days and developing a relationship with the the regulars there, or you know, just being open to you know my kids, my son's uh starting school, so getting to know you know his his friends' parents and kind of building relationships intentionally there. You know, are those always the natural friends that I would pick? No, but there's a rhythm of seeing them at the park at the same time over and over again and just being intentional about that. So I would say those have been uh practices that I'm you know doing in this particular season that I've been learning from others or learning from the research that you know maybe when you don't have kind of a natural uh you know, natural community like you have in in an in another season, there are different ways you can engage with community that are uh not the same, but they they help you kind of stay stay connected and and build community.
SPEAKER_01That's great. I wanted to ask you, and this is this feeds right into the last thing I wanted to uh um to ask you if you could leave our listeners with with one tip, um, one piece of advice when it comes to I suppose trying to to tackle this sort of loneliness problem in in you know that they might be encountering in their own lives. Uh, how can we either better get in touch with what we mo most deeply long for? How can we overcome the kind of alienation we might feel? If there's one practice you might recommend that our listeners could use.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I would go back to the uh the art, art and nature. You know, that you know, one of the things that was kind of fascinating, and it wasn't our team that did it, it was another team, Harvard, that researched uh the impact of um listening to classical music versus talking to a uh a Harvard grad student. You know, what would the impact be on loneliness? Now, part of it may be the Harvard grad student, you know, it doesn't that need some social skills. But uh but it was interesting that listening to classical music actually decreased the feelings of loneliness. And you know, I know decreasing the feeling of loneliness is not the end goal, but this uh you know, connecting with good literature, listening, listening to good music, whatever your musical taste is, but really good music, going to the galleries, uh, you know, if you're a spiritual person having a spiritual practice where you're encountering uh, if you can, you know, beautiful architecture in a spiritual context, all those things develop that sensibility where you're starting to see the whole and see the other and see uh you know, see the unique, uh, and and starts to condition you to just value relationship in the first place. I think that's probably the first place I would start is just that uh inner development of of our hearts and of our um our spiritual capabilities and our our sensibility to to see see beauty is actually I think something I'm really and really believe will be a a pathway for individuals to to find. And be and just be aware of community. Community is is often a gift and it's often, you know, relationship, if you force it or chase it or try to pursue it, sometimes you don't get it. But if you if you're kind of developing that awareness, then you see it when it shows up. You see that person when they you know, that random person you meet at the at the kids' school or within your high school or within your you know, university department or whatever, and you're like, oh, I I'm attracted to to having this conversation with this person. If you're fully conditioned to think about everyone as your pathway to success or your next kind of utilitarian pursuit, then you're not gonna see the relationship, you know. Um so I'd start there doing that soul work.
SPEAKER_01Amazing. Thanks, Ron. Monica?
SPEAKER_00What can I add to that? I guess first, not not advice, but just um it's important to me to say, right? Like it's nobody is free, I think, of this experience of feeling lonely sometimes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And that's that's really okay. And I think that even though it sounds simple, but accepting that uh is not easy. Um, but I think this is an important step towards then helping, you know, to see things differently in yourself differently. And the second I I do want to say is like as you're also sitting with it yourself, do reach out to others. I think there's such a notion around self-sufficiency and like, oh, I don't want to be a burden to other people, like I don't want to be seen in this way, like that's it's awkward, and uh, and I don't want to right like be yeah, be be a burden for others. And I think that's so um wrong. Uh yes, we we should all be a little bit of a burden to to each other, a little bit so that the suffering is is shared, you know, and we can connect again through each other's experiences that are tough and challenging, and we are all challenged in different ways. So I think having a little bit of faith in in and in others, uh, right, and and seeking out uh and reaching out and being, even if that's you know, bringing discomfort or resistance within you, being the person who is interested first, being the person who asks, like, hey, I feel like no, I would love to continue this conversation, or like we should hang out sometime, or like, you know, like initiating something, even if it's small, and do it a couple of times and taking that as your way to to actively pursue and and cultivate the relationships that you really need and and want.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, that's that's amazing. Yeah. Yeah, I think if it if we yeah, if we if we stay in that illusion that we don't we don't need others, we shouldn't be a burden, it becomes hard for us to belong to anyone, right? And I think that there's the the the beauty here is is w when I recognize that you are someone in need and that my presence can be in some way helpful, then I think that can strengthen that that that connection between us, but also there's something more beautiful, I think, in recognizing that someone we might think is perfect is is actually, you know, um in in some way broken and and and that I have a role in that uh you know in that relationship. Right? So there's there's a beauty in in that brokenness uh to know especially that that I you know that I can I so I think yeah, especially people who we would consider friends are are are the people who would value that brokenness and and their role in in um in that connection. Uh yeah, it's amazing. Thank you. Thank you both. It's been such a such a rich and uh deep uh conversation. Yeah, no, thank you. Well, I wish you well in in all of your wonderful endeavors, and may your endeavors and and your lives flourish. So hope to see you all soon. Likewise in person. Thank you, Brandon. All right, good to see Micah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, good to see you as well. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_01All right, folks, that's a wrap for this episode. If you enjoyed the episode, please share it with someone who would find it of interest. Also, please subscribe and leave us a review if you haven't already. Thanks and see you next time.