In this bonus episode of the podcast, we're providing the audio from our livestream conversation on deconstruction. We talk a little bit about Don and Tana's deconstruction journey, reconstruction, and the messiness of it all.
Buy us a coffee!
Website
YouTube
TikTok
Facebook
Instagram
Hi, this is Tanya from agent Jesus, future faith. We are off this week, but as a special bonus for our audio podcast listeners, we are including here today. The audio from our YouTube live stream discussion on deconstruction. This is a conversation Don and I had about our deconstruction journey. Plus we answered some questions from our viewers. We hope you enjoy it and we'll be back with you soon with our normally scheduled programming
Don:all right. So Tana, uh, let's get into the conversation. So the conversation is about deconstruction. Something that you and I have done, and we had some interesting conversations in the last several days actually about, um, kind of how, uh, we did this. We did deconstruction before it was cool. Yeah, we did. And, uh, and so for some, for a little bit, I think we overlooked the impact of a lot of people that are going through deconstruction now. Like we, we kind of, we overlooked it a little bit. Um, so what, if you don't mind, share, if you'd be willing to share a little bit about that time in our life when the deconstruction kind of started to happen.
Tana:Um, yeah. So I was terrified honestly because I was pregnant with Malcolm at the time. Don was the college pastor at a big megachurch. And, um, we were still very Thanks Franklin. Um, and we were still, uh, we still believed in a lot of more kind of conservative, traditional complimentarian, like that kind of stuff. And one day Don came over and visited me at work and he's like, can we go for a walk? You know, I was like, sure.
Don:He started never a good start to a conversation,
Tana:we need to talk. And uh, he was just started kind of laying out this whole, like, things he had been thinking about and then this vision too of where he's like, I want our house to be a place where people can just come and go almost whenever they want.
Don:That wasn't deconstruction, that was just bad
Tana:boundaries. Yeah, that was, that was, but but it was a mix all into the conversation. So it's like entwined in my mind, right. And um, I'm listening and I'm trying to be supportive and then he left and I was like, oh my gosh, my husband's a heretic. And I completely freaked out. But at the same time, I had always had these questions in the back of my mind. Like there would be times I would try to tow the party line, so to. Um, and, and be like, okay, well this is something we're supposed to believe. Um, and so I'm gonna say I believe it. And then in the back of my mind I'd be like, I don't really believe this. And I never understood a lot of the, um, hedges people put around scripture. I didn't understand some of the rules. Um, uh, there, the obsession with all things sex and like how much that was pushed at us, especially as teenagers of, you know, there's this specific type of marriage and you can have sex within that marriage, and then everything else is sin, you know, and, and the, the homophobia didn't sit well with me. And, you know, there was all kinds of things that I had had questions about, but I was taught that questions were wrong. And so, I would have these questions, but then I'd be like, oh, I'm, I'm bad for having these questions. I'm, I'm doubting and I shouldn't doubt and blah, blah, blah. Um, so yeah. So that was, that was kind of the terrifying start of
Don:all that. So how, what would you say then was kind of your first foray? Because, because really what you're describing there is I had started my deconstruction process and I think one time you, I was explaining to someone about the beauty of understanding Judaism and understanding Christianity through the context of Judaism. And I said, it's like, you know, many of us, we grew up standing on the beach looking at the ocean and understanding Christianity through the lens of Judaism, uh, was like going out and putting on a snorkel and going underwater. And you kind of described the process of, of me getting you to that place. But I would argue that. That time was very transformational for me. Mm-hmm. Uh, so it was both deconstruction because I was finding this new way to read the text mm-hmm. and cause of that I was deconstructing at the same time that I was discovering this amazing space. And you said yes. Yeah. It's wonderful for everyone, but Don kind of grabbed my head and dunked me under the water.
Tana:Yeah. I felt like you were just like, look what's down here And you know? And I was like, but I can't breathe. Uh, so it felt very sudden and disorienting and, and all of that. But then, you know, after we started to kind of go through the process, um, it was very freeing, but I was also very angry. Um, we were attending a solidly evangelical church and there had been so many things that had been said and taught at that church that. Really harmed me, um, and harmed Don and harmed a lot of other people I'm sure. And so I just, yeah. I started, kind of started to, to get angry about like, feeling like I was lied too. Yeah. And, and that's difficult because I don't, I do think there are people who weaponize Christianity and weaponize a certain interpretation of the Bible, but I think there are a bunch of other people who truly believe these things that I see as harmful. Sure. And so in some way I felt like my anger was justified. But in other, like later, later on I was like, well, they actually believe this.
Don:Like, yeah. It reminds me of like, who's to blame for believing that uh, the sun goes around the earth. Uh, right. Like who's to blame prior to that becoming common knowledge that it's the other way around. And I, that's one of the things I find the most complicated with the deconstruction processes. It's almost hard to know who to be angry at because Yeah. People were just grew up in a setting that this was just true and Right. They didn't have the, you know, credentials or the ability to argue for something else in a valid way against it. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, at what point, who is who is at fault? And I feel like that for a lot of people is a really complicated space in this is, is knowing who, who do I hold accountable for this?
Tana:Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really hard and I think that's what makes it difficult for people to, um, be at different places in the process. Yes. Uh, because, you know, so deconstruction is kind of having a moment right now. Right. And you and I were talking the other day about how we're like, this is so interesting cuz we did this like 20 years ago. And so it's just not really on the top of our minds anymore. Um, not because we think the reconstruction process is completely finished, but just because that just wasn't, I don't know, it just, it happened so long ago to do the deconstruction process that it didn't seem as, I don't know, relevant or something. And now I'm just seeing deconstruction everywhere and I'm like, oh
Don:yeah, me this you sent me this article today that had this mm-hmm. Now this is from the Gospel Coalition, which is firmly against deconstruction. But it's interesting, visa says as of today there are 290 3026 posts on Instagram utilizing the hashtag deconstruction. Now my guess is that that number is exponentially larger because I think this article is from like April or something to that effect. I think it might have been February actually. Okay. So, but it says, you know, the vast majority are from people who've deconverted from Christianity become progressive Christians embrace same sex marriage and relationships, rejected core historic doctrines of the faith or are on a mission to crush the white Christian patriarchy. I have to say at that point I think they nailed it. That's exactly what's happening. That is, yeah, exactly. Now they make that a bad thing, but I'm like, I feel seen right? Like that, that yes, that is happening. Um, and just a plethora of insults, mockery and anger Hurd at the church along with meme stating I regret saving myself from marriage and good morning. It's great to leave your non affirming church. Um, So I, I think that that's, you know, you said that it's having a moment and right there is, there's a huge amount of hashtags out there for deconstruction. I think one of the, the things that is not necessarily helpful to people is that they don't know where to go for guidance amidst it.
Tana:Right.
Don:Right. Because there's no, there's no unified voice because everyone's process is different. So I think, feel, my perception is from the outside looking in, that you have a lot of people that used to have their feet firmly planted in their faith and their understanding of God now firmly planted with their feet in midair and they, and it feels unrecoverable, right. So, So what are your thoughts about, um, how did you handle that?
Tana:That's a good question. Oh, man. How did I handle
Don:the, the feeling of this? Yeah, I, I mean, the feeling of your feet being firmly planted in mid-air with nothing solid to grasp.
Tana:Yes. Imagine, imagine it's all rage. Um, it's, I'm trying to remember. Cause it was so long ago. I, you know, it was very, um, unmooring. It was, I, I wrote an article a little bit. I don't know, maybe in the last couple months or something where I talked about how constant gaslighting throughout my life, uh, has led to me feeling like an unreliable narrator in my own story. You know, because it would constantly be like, that's not what happened. This is what happened, and that wasn't my fault. It was your fault. And like, you know, everything was my problem. Nothing was ever anybody else's
Don:problem, you know? And, and the church uses the phrase, uh, you like, what tickles your ears to do that same thing,
Tana:right? Yeah. Well, and then there's all the BS about, um, like the impurity culture where it was like, well, boys will be boys and we just kind of expect them to have these sexual urges, urges, but it, so it's girls responsibility to, you know, remain chased and to do as much as we can to not tempt the boys or allow them to. Engage in their urges. I don't know. It was always put on the young women. So, um, in a way that was, it was a much the same feeling where I felt like I had been lied to in a lot of ways. And so then I was like, well, what's true and what isn't true? Yes. And, and then, and you're also told, we talked about this a little bit, um, in our podcast episode on emotions where we talked about that the heart is deceitful above all things verse, and so you're taught not to trust your emotions. And so it was also kind of that like, well, can I trust? Like, this feels wrong, this feels negative. Can I trust that feeling? Since my previous pastors have always told me X, Y, Z.
Don:Yeah. And, you know, go ahead. I'm
Tana:sorry. I was just gonna say it was, it was very difficult at times to not have a touchstone for that, which is why I really appreciated the level of Bible study that you do. Because it did, it wasn't quite to that point yet when we were still at the megachurch. But then when we moved on from the megachurch, you really started to like teach people how to study the Bible and, and, and all the different methods you taught us and all the different, different digging to scripture. It felt like it helped to me to find solid
Don:ground. Yeah, me too. Absolutely. Yeah.
Tana:Yeah. Did that mess
Don:up what you were gonna ask her? I, it's irrelevant now. Um, but that's fine. Um, the, The thing for me, kind of what you were saying about not having a touchstone for me, when as I started deconstructing, I started to question some of the things that I had been taught. I realized that I either had to go back to the text to, uh, to see if that's what the text was saying or if that's how somebody was interpreting it and telling me. Right. And that became huge for me because as I started going back and started looking at even older interpretations of the Bible and the older I kept getting, the further back I kept going in history to interpretation of the text, the more affirmed my views felt. Yeah. And the more the modern church fell short of some of the oldest ways of reading the. Yeah. And so for me it was, it, the, the very thing that felt like became unhinged from me became my anchor. Um,
Tana:and, and that's something that was very interesting, uh, as part of this whole process was to learn a little bit about that church history. Because once I learned that our current, um, sort of more fundamentalist, evangelical, conservative kind of view of Christianity, that has been sort of the prevailing view for the last, well, all my whole life, um, was not developed until like 300 years ago
Don:Right. And, and, and done in chunks 500 years at a time since past that.
Tana:Yeah. And, and it's like, oh, why am I feeling like this is the, like all time truth? if it, if that hasn't been the way that the scripture has been interpreted for hundreds of years. Like it's, it's a fairly modern invention
Don:so to speak. Well, you and I have found it, uh, it clear in some of the things that we were reading that, uh, if, if you agree with the changes that were made in church history, then you're a reformer. If you agree with the changes that people want to make in religion, then they're deconstructionist. Mm-hmm. And so I think it's interesting. I, I, I almost wish that it wasn't too late. I mean, that, that's, that hashtag is gone. It's set sail. It's gonna be deconstruction. It's not reformed. Reforming faith. People won't, yeah, we won't get that. But I do think that there is a space in which instead of talking about deconstruction, Or maybe as well as talking about deconstruction. We can talk about reforming the faith. Mm-hmm. And that that's what we are wanting to do. We want to reform Christianity, not we want to, uh, you know, destroy it. Which is what I think people who are uncomfortable with, people deconstructing think that that's what they want to do, is that people want to destroy Christianity, destroy Jesus. And it's, the truth is, no, we just want to destroy your church well in the end. And
Tana:not Jesus. The, the result for some people is to leave the church. The, the result for some people is to leave the church and to leave faithful together. That's what's helping. And so I think that's, I think that's scary for some people.
Don:Absolutely. Um, especially as some of the stuff being deconstructed is eternal, uh, destinations. Right. And so, You know, if people leave the church, the people that they're leaving and abandoning, so to speak, to move on to something else, those people that are still standing left behind, um, are are worried about that person's salvation. Um, so yeah. Let's do a couple questions, if you don't mind. From the church. Yeah,
Tana:yeah. I
Don:was just thinking that. Yeah. All right. What have you gained since deconstruction and reconstruction?
Tana:I think, um, very generally speaking, I have been more able to understand why I believe what I believe Before it was more so just parroting. What I thought I was supposed to believe, and then if I had questions about it, I really wasn't supposed to ask those. And even though there was always that you should always have a reason for your beliefs. I don't remember the exact phrasing. I was like, I don't, I don't, if I'm really probed on this, I don't think I could defend it, you know? Hmm. Which unfortunately for me, I'm still kind of bad at that, but it's no longer because I haven't explored it. It's because I'm very bad at remembering the details of, uh, of, uh, an idea. Like once I reach a conclusion, I'm like, okay, all of this stuff has led me here, and then I'll forget all the the
Don:stuff that led you there, just you recipe.
Tana:Yes. I'm just like, here's the chocolate cake. But I don't remember how I got here. But, um, yeah, so I, I would say though I am still better at defending than I was before. I'm just not as good at it as say Don.
Don:So, so here's, here's my question about that though. Tana is, I mean, that's not the obligation. Your obligation is not to answer to other people. The, my question then for you is, are you more satisfied about your understanding of what you believe now? Right. It's not about whether or not you can defend it to, you know, Joe Schmoe, who actually is not interested in being convinced of your view. They're just, they just wanna argue with you and prove a point against your view. Probably true your job. You're not responsible for them or even to them to give them that information. So right. When I'm hearing you talk, it sounds to me, and I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but it sounds to me like you're saying you now have a better sense of why you believe the things you believe regardless of whether or not you can articulate them, uh, compellingly to someone else.
Tana:Yeah. I think that I definitely have a better understanding of my beliefs and I'm also way more comfortable with uncertainty and gray areas. Mm-hmm. And in fact, to me, um, one of the questions that was always kind of rattling around in my brain before was like, well if God, cuz I was always taught God is omnipotent, God is so much greater than we are and God is beyond Bo all understanding. But then everybody sounded so certain about what God would do, what God, you know, what God was trying to teach us, what you know, whatever. And, and I remember thinking that doesn't seem to add up. And so now I can. I can sit comfortably in this knowledge that if God is, you know, almighty and this creator and so much bigger than us, and you know, then how ridiculous is it for us to think we can understand every single thing that, you know, that anything in the Bible or or, or whatever and and a more comfortable kind of sitting in that and going, well, there's no way I could possibly understand all of this, and so maybe I'll find out when I die. I don't know. But I feel like I was gonna say another thing, but it just went right
Don:outta my head. That's all right. If it comes back, we'll loop back to it. So, okay. For me, I'd say one of the things I gained was peace. Like the deconstruction and reconstruction process before deconstruction. I, I felt like I was a, you know, I was a person in the hands of an angry God. I felt like I was a spider being dangled over the, the bonfire, like, you know, Jonathan Edwards talks about, that's, that's the god that I was raised to imagine. And there's no peace. So when Jesus says, come to me all who are weary and heavy laden and find rest I that, that was unfamiliar, uh, I how do you feel rest terrified that at any moment you're going to screw up everything and Right. God's plan for your life, you're gonna screw up, you know, whatever it might be. And, and this is my journey, so maybe other people didn't have it quite as harsh as that, but I felt like I was always on a tightrope. So for me, in a lot of ways, especially as a teacher, because I was pastoring even in that, from that mindset, And as a pastor, you know, people will quote the passage that says, you know, teachers will be judged more harshly. Um, which by the way just means people that give advice on behalf of God will be judged for whether or not that advice is godly And it better be if you're gonna give that advice. So a lot of pastors should be nervous by that passage. Um, but it ha it has given me a lot of peace, right? So I'd say that's the biggest thing I gained is I'm comfortable with what I don't know. I love what I know or what I believe, and in the midst of all that, I have great peace about my faith. Um, so yeah. I hope that was helpful, Amanda. Okay. Jerich says, what do you see as the end goal of the deconstruction process?
Tana:Hmm. I think, I think it's different for everybody. But I think the, maybe the commonality is that sense of peace that you just mentioned on, um, at the ending of torture cuz so many people are, um, like mentally and emotionally tortured in the church and there's so much religious trauma out there. And so the deconstruction process usually allows people to unpack that trauma Yeah. And to determine whether or not they still want to be in a faith context after experiencing that trauma. And then for others it's just unpacking harmful beliefs or um, uh, things that just didn't sit quite well. And so I think the goal is better understanding. of why you believe, what you believe, resolving the cognitive dissonance. That's a good way of putting it, Amanda. Um, and I think also maybe, uh, more grace and mercy towards others. I, I feel like most people are deconstructing from a pretty stringent interpretation of the Bible and of what it means to be a Christian. And it's very judgemental. Even though people would constantly say, judge, not less you be judged, but then like, then in the next breath they'd be like, these people are going to hell. And uh, and so once you've gone through deconstruction, at least most of the people I know who have gone through it, they're way more merciful. Um, and way more open to, yeah, like doors of the church and the doors to heaven are open to everybody. I do think most of us go through a period and it's longer for some people than others of being pissed off uh, fundamentalist Christians and evangelicals and people who are really strident about their faith. And sometimes that doesn't go away and sometimes it does. Um, yeah. But
Don:yeah. So two, two quick thoughts. One is you mentioned about trauma. Um, something for you all to look forward to in January, Dr. Dwayne Wood is gonna be on and, um, medical doctor. And one of the topics that we're hoping that we'll talk about that night is how religious trauma impacts our bodies. Um, so something to keep an eye out. I think he's coming on January 17th. I don't remember, to be honest. 19 something like that. Sometime in the mid-January. So watch out for that. Uh, that should be wonderful. Second of all, there's a newer movie that, I don't know if you've seen Tana, um, where they, they're like on this journey and during the journey they're, they're like, um, they're meeting people along the way. They're growing in their understanding of how things work, um, and they arrive. But about partway through the movie, it changes from black and white to technical. Um, uh, the Wizard of Oz, I think is what it's called. Um, brand New flick just came out, catch it on Netflix. And I think about that for like the deconstruction process. When you finally have deconstructed and you start rebuilding, it's like you're rebuilding in color. And in that, yeah, in that experience of rebuilding, you're seeing the beauty, but you're also. Hurt because why weren't you always building with color? Right? And so there's a little bit of anger, but there's also some celebration. But then you start to see everything else in color, and so then you, you have joy towards that. I, I think that there's just a really powerful piece with that reconstruction process. Yeah. All right. You ready for the next question? It's a part one. So Franklin asks, I think that deconstruction has become one of those words that has lost its direct meaning and become whatever negative concept people want or need it to be. Do you think there's a way for us to recapture the transformative heart of deconstruction and the reality that everyone does it at one point or another in their lives?
Tana:Hmm. Yeah. It. I think any, any kind of buzzword like that is gonna have multiple meanings depending on, you know, who's using it and why. Uh, so yeah, I think, uh, it's, yeah, I, I, I think there are a lot of people who are purposefully trying to make it negative. Uh, I was reading some articles today and it was very much like beware the deconstruction process and their descriptions of the deconstruct deconstruction process were, were very straw man. You know, like, um, deconstruction is inherently bad and people who were doing it don't, don't care about Jesus and don't use the Bible as a guide and blah, blah, blah. Um, so yeah. So I think there's some different meanings out there about, I love the idea of, um, how did you put it? Recapture the transformative heart, um, and the reality. Everyone does it at one point or another in their lives. I think we are actually at this moment in Christianity where if we can just get enough people together to have the right conversations, um, we have the opportunity to build a beautiful, wonderful faith moving forward. I think that deconstruction is part of that. I think deconstruction is having another moment right now, mainly because of the, uh, of Trumpism kind of getting into evangelicalism and then
Don:mega evangelicalism,
Tana:mag Mag, I can't remember that. Um, and the sort of marriage of the political. With Evangelicalism. Uh, I mean, just, I just saw a thing today that said, you know, an exit polls, white evangelicals mostly voted for Herschel Walker, which if you look, you know, on paper and you go, oh, Christians are against like, extramarital sex and abortions and all this other stuff, like, which were all things that Herschel Walker had, and he literally lost to a minister, you know, So it's like, okay. Um, so I think that's like a whole new movement in deconstruction that has a little bit more, uh, thorniness to it because it's become political and has a lot of, um, a lot more trauma in it because it's joining, joining with policy that's affecting people's lives, you know?
Don:Yeah. I I think we can also all kind of agree that anytime you're doing anything as a re action, it tends to not be the best of the responses that could happen. Right, right. And yeah. And so I think that part of the way that deconstruction, the concept of deconstruction and reconstruction becomes redeemable, or I don't even know that it needs to be redeemed, but it becomes a less catchphrase and basically meaning right bash, uh, the church and bash Christianity, right? Is to actually create space in which people can safely deconstruct. The problem is, is that a lot of people that have begun the deconstruction process do not have a safe place to do it. And because of that, it, you have to do whatever you can to shake free of this snake on a plane. And, uh, you'll use the F word if you have to. Right, right. And so, like, I think there's part of that whole process that there's just not a safe place to deconstruct. And until we create safe places to deconstruct mm-hmm. um, people are going to abandon everything as opposed to Right. Um, be able to pause in a safe place, evaluate the things that have caused harm. Mm-hmm. eliminate those, inspect those, build upon those mm-hmm. without re having to reject everything, um mm-hmm. And then later on in life, possibly try to pick up some of those pieces. Um, so I don't know if that was helpful, Franklin, but I think
Tana:I had something to add though. I, um, to, to that what I was saying about how we're kind of in this moment, I think right now that offers a lot of opportunity is there are a lot of people going, deconstructing and trying to explore if they wanna stay with their faith or if they don't. And if they do, what does that mean? Where can they go? Um, how do they rebuild this faith and what's new about it? What parts of evangelicalism do they jettison and which ones do they keep? Um, things like that. And if we could get everybody kind of on the same page about, um, releasing like dogma and, and doctrine, I think we have this beautiful moment where we can build a new future for the Christian faith that isn't so much based on, okay, do you believe these. particular things. All right. You're the right kind of Christian. Right. Um, if we could somehow join together and have, I mean, we, we could have this big beautiful tent that we're all
Don:under, you're describing Evangelicalism.
Tana:It, that's what it was. That's what originally was. It was meant to be that big tent, uh, read David Gussie's book after Evangelicalism to, to learn more. And it, it was meant to be sort of like this big beautiful tent. But then they start, they started to have like these, like, oh, these, um, sholis of, you know, whether or not you were a, a true Christian, you know? Yeah. And if we could move away from that Yep. And, and then we would have a space in which it is safe for people to deconstruct.
Don:All right. You ready for the next question? Sure. is it possible to have gone through deconstruction unconsciously? I'm, I'm gonna guess subconsciously I you might be doing it unconsciously, I dunno if so, is it possible for a healthy reconstruction from there? Uh, or would someone have to be intentional in another deconstruction? Just so you know, fifth Sunday, I always say unconscious when I mean subconscious. So I felt seen by you saying that.
Tana:Thanks for affirming Don. Yes, I need it. Um, I don't know. Don, do you wanna take this one? I don't. Yeah,
Don:I, I, I think it absolutely is possible to subconsciously go through it, um, to, because maybe one of the areas I would say is LGBTQ inclusion, right? Where a friend comes out to you and that friend is a Christian, or they're, maybe they're not even, but. You now have to see the beauty of that human that you've loved for all these years. And you have to begin wrestling with what does it mean to still love them, care for them, see value in them, see value in their relationships and everything. And so that would be a subconscious deconstructing in my opinion there. I imagine there's many other ways you hear, uh, a woman teach and she's powerful and she, what she says is impactful. And so now you have to start to wrestle with, wait, I thought women were not supposed to be in this position of power or authority, but yet this person clearly is anointed in some way. And so you might begin to subconsciously deconstruct. What I would encourage someone to do that if they did do some of the subconscious deconstruction and started reconstructing is that they find someone that they trust who has gone through the process to just check their work. Um, you know, like, you know, just have someone look over the, your paper and and pure editing Yeah. And I, and I, and I don't know how to say that without it maybe coming across that you can't trust yourself cuz I don't mean that, I just mean it's always good in that situation, especially if you did it unintentionally to have someone else that maybe has already gone through the process come, come through and be like, okay, so tell me more about what you experienced when you were engaging this friend of yours who came out and you were trying to wrestle with what that meant and how did you come to a change of mind. And then possibly that hopefully that person can give you places to shore up that view p they can give you. And it's not to like poke holes in your view. It's more so to give you help to anchor it more securely. Um, so that's, that's kind of what I would recommend.
Tana:Yeah. I think, um, What was really helpful for our process, process is that one, we had each other, but two, we ended up with a community of people who basically, when we left the megachurch followed you. Yeah. Um, because we were sort of beginning to deconstruct within that college group, but we didn't, I don't think we really knew that,
Don:you know, we would've never called it
Tana:that. Right. We, yeah. Uh, and so a bunch of people followed you and so we had this little community of people through different iterations of churches where everybody had these same questions. Yeah. They're like, I don't feel comfortable with this anymore. And, you know, um, and honestly, uh, the, the, I have such a, like a good old days feeling about that you know? Um, because it was very exciting because everybody was. Not, it wasn't just this like question authority, like kind of a thing, but it was more so like, we're on this exciting adventure together. Yeah. You know, it was invigorating, honestly.
Don:Marcus says, I remember when I first met Don, oops. He asked me questions about my faith that made me cry. That's my unofficial, official start to deconstruction. Terrifying So, Marcus, I, I actually want to ask your, for your forgiveness, because I don't think that at that point in my own journey, I was honoring people as much as I would like to imagine I do now. Hmm. Um, in some ways I liked being the person that kind of pushed buttons. Um, I still do, but I think I'm, I'm a little bit more careful about it, um, than what I was in the past because thankfully, Uh, Marcus, you and I continued a friendship in a relationship and we walked through hopefully a lot of those things and it wasn't nearly as terrifying, but I, but I can tell you that if at that point, cuz I remember sitting in the coffee shop that made me feel like I was in a little girl's, uh, dollhouse or a little girl I don't remember what the coffee shop's name was, but, um, but I, if, if at that moment you would've walked away and never, you and I never talked again, I would've done a huge disservice to you probably. And, uh, that was not healthy of me to do. So, uh, hopefully, hopefully you've come out the other side. Well and good. Uh, so Marcus asks, is there an end to de construction? Does it ever end? Should it ever end? I feel like this is kind of an easy question. Well, now
Tana:I feel like we should change
Don:I'm just gonna say, I'm gonna say, uh, there's never an end to deconstruction and should it ever Nextdoor Bake
Tana:Shop. Sorry, Sorry. I was, tell Marcus's comment. I was trying to remember the name of the, the place too. It was Nextdoor Bake Shop. Anyway, sorry. Go ahead.
Don:I'd say no, it, it, it doesn't ever end. No, it should not end. Um, because if we aren't always evaluating what we believe, then we are setting up an idol. Right? It's one of the things' always quote, yeah. Hold on one second. It, it's one of those things. I always quote that if you worship the same God today as you did yesterday, you're worshiping an idol. But obviously a lot of this is gonna come down to how you personally define deconstruction. If you see it as a positive or a negative is going to impact that. Go ahead Tony. It looks like that's where you were
Tana:heading. That's where I was going, is I, I kind of wonder if we would still call it deconstruction at that point. Um, because I think there's deconstruction and there's reconstruction, and that is all a recursive process. Like you're not gonna go through it perfectly linearly. Like first you do steps 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and then you reco reconstruct and you do one, two, you know, it's, it's gonna be deconstruct this and then reconstruct that and then deconstruct a new thing and reconstruct that. And then I think it's possible that eventually you're no longer maybe in a phase of deconstruction, you're just in a new phase where you're constantly dedicated to learning and asking questions. Yes. And reading scripture deeply. And it's no longer like you're trying to deconstruct this, this thing that has felt maybe harmful to you, but instead you're trying to build a new
Don:belief system. So Tana, would you say as the, uh, the resident, uh, rhetorician that, um, that it's, Deconstruction in some way. The way that we're talking about tonight means you're suspicious of the, of the, uh, foundation of a belief. Yeah. Whereas the ongoing process of refining and passing it through the fire, uh, and getting rid of the dross of our views and our beliefs, that isn't, that isn't a, um, doubting the foundation. Right. That I said is a refining. So maybe refining is the, is
the
Tana:term. That's, that's a good term. And I'm gonna try a really bad metaphor that just popped into my head. Um, I'm thinking about, I'm for it you'll, you'll fix it and you'll make it sound better. Uh, it, it's, it kinda reminds me of, um, oh, you were just talking about this the other day. Good Bones, that TV show. Love it. Where, where they strip it down and make, and like, Whenever you are stripping down a house, if you have to, like, if it's in really bad shape, you might have to just get rid of like everything. Right? Um, and you might have a cracked foundation that needs repaired or maybe you need to pour a whole new foundation, or maybe the studs are good and you can get everything down to the studs and like the basic structure of the house is good. And then you start rebuilding the house. So that feels to me like deconstruction and then reconstruction. But over the years, you may renovate the house, you may redo the kitchen, you might redo the bathroom, you might add a room, you might, you know what I mean? Like I kind of see it that way. And so, what did you say? What word did you say? Refining. Yeah. Um, I was, when you were saying that, I was thinking renovating Yeah. You know, so kind of the same thing.
Don:Yeah. All right. Next question. How has deconstruction for both of you impacted the way that you've parented?
Tana:I love this question. Me too. And you know, I have moments where I'm like, I'm a terrible mother and like, you know, like, when's my son gonna go into therapy because of me. Uh, but overall, I actually think I've been a really good mom. And I actually think deconstruction has a lot to do with that because I didn't try to force, we didn't try to force beliefs on Malcolm and we also taught him to question everything, which was really, really annoying for
Don:a while. it was a great idea until he was three and then again when he was 15.
Tana:Yeah, yeah. And, you know, uh, all the kid, although kids ask why a million times, um, they go through that stage and then it feels like they kind of outgrow it. But, um, He just learned to ask better questions than why you know, uh, he asked a lot of why questions. Um, but, but yeah, and, and so I think we've, uh, raised a critical thinker and we also raised someone who's very compassionate. Uh, he has volunteered in many different ways throughout the years. Um, he cares about people and also there's just so many times that he'll tell us a story and I'll just be so impressed with how he handled it. Like, uh, online gaming, you know, people can get pretty gross in that. And he has a small group of friends where they'll go and see The word you're looking for is toxic. Yeah. Yeah. And they'll, they'll play, I don't remember what games he plays online, but like, it'll be like his four friends and then, um, another group and they play some, you know, whatever. And then in the chats, like certain people will say like, really jerky, things like that. Homophobic or racist or misogynistic or just really crude or whatever. And he's like, booted. Like he just He's like, we don't accept that language here. Um, I play Clash of Clans with him, and I cannot tell you how many times, uh, he and one of his friends who's also like the co-leader for the, for the clan have booted people for being disgusting or, uh, bigot. Yeah. You know? Um, so I think I, we owe a lot of that to not just. Having prescribed beliefs and trying to push them off on Malcolm, including like, oh, you should be accepting of all people, right? I mean, yes, we taught him that, but we also taught him to question and understand, you know, come to his own conclusions.
Don:So yeah, I think, I think for me, when I think about that, it's the process of deconstruction and the willingness to be like, I think once you've been deconstructing for a while and you start to see some of the reconstruction, and you can feel that there's hope, because I think sometimes in that deconstruction process, you've only done the tearing apart. And so you're, you're, you're wanting that hope so bad, but when you see some of the walls starting to go back up, even while you're deconstructing somewhere else, that hope allows you to become comfortable with tearing down ideas that you held. Yeah. Um, and I think when it comes to Malcolm. And my, and parenting some of the things that I would've imagined I would've been, as a parent, I held much more loosely, uh, than I would've in the past because I recognized that so many things I was so certain about, I deconstructed and rebuilt something much more beautiful. And so in my parenting, I held a lot of that stuff, a lot looser. Um, and I think even though I always imagined myself that I would be a good father, I think I was an even better parent than I had hoped I would be because of the deconstruction process and learning that it's healthy to tear down preconceived notions and allow something more beautiful to arise out of
Tana:it. So I, I think one of the best things to come out of that is that we never saw ourselves as. like, uh, I don't remember who it was, but the other day they were just like, uh, my kids just do what I say, doesn't matter what they think. Authoritarian. Yeah. Very authoritarian. And, and so instead, what we had was a, like, we were all participating as a family in making decisions on things. And that I think that showing respect to Malcolm was very important to not making him feel like he just had to do what we, you know, we told him. And like, we never, he had a little bit of a period of time where he was like kind of pissy about things, but it was very short and we never had to deal with the rebellious teenager, I hate you slamming doors. Um, you know, all that stuff. Uh, he, and I think we did that because we showed him the respect of not. being
Don:authoritarian. Yeah. And I'm not sure how much of that was just Malcolm's disposition versus maybe our parenting, but I think with, with it was all our parenting it was all, I mean, I accept your rebuke. It was all our parenting Um, uh, Jerich says it is a very real challenge when the midst of the anger, fear, uncertainty of breaking down our assumptions and comfort zones to not tear down someone else's structure out of a need for shared discomfort and anxiety. Hmm. Yeah, I think so. I, I think that that's, that is something that if I'm not happy, no one's gonna be happy type thing. Right. Um, I, I think that that definitely does exist. Um, yeah. Marcus says, or even just the fear of loneliness and isolation that comes with deconstruction, looking out and fearing that you don't have community to do it with. Yeah. I think that's, that's one of the sad things. I can't express this enough. I. wish the church embraced deconstruction. Hmm. And that the church was always open to reevaluating its stance on things as new generations with a history of ideas, a history of learning from previous generations, develop new ways of seeing God and the world, um, that should be embraced instead of taught as fear. Right? Like, oh boy, we can't change the way we view things because this is the way it's always been. Um, and, and I think that if the church actually, instead of, instead of their garbage discipleship class, they hold for six weeks out of, you know, at a time they should probably hold a deconstruction class. Like how great would that be if the church every like offered. A deconstruction class where they taught people how to ask better questions, taught people how to, um, investigate scripture and, um, approach scholarship and, uh, and actually, um, process and even help them how to process.
Tana:I think that would be beautiful. And, um, the church's unwillingness to do that reminds me of, um, toxic masculinity. How some men feel the need to be overly masculine and aggressive to prove that they're manly. Uh, and so they don't, you know, allow any, uh, questions to that. And the church has a similar thing where. Well, it was connected in my mind, and now I'm, and I'm not questioning the connection, but anyway, uh, the pastors are so afraid to not have authority that they're unwilling to have that authority questioned. Oh, I know where the connection was in my mind. You know, a man who has no problem, uh, going and buying tampons for his wife or you know, holding his girlfriend's purse or, you know, whatever is a man that is secure in his masculinity.
Don:Right. Yeah. I never understood that fear personally, because I'm like, that, that is like, like I don't, I don't buy into like the manliness thing and anyone that knows me well knows that I'm, I don't fit the standard of manliness. Um, but, uh, you know, the idea of like buying tampons, like. That if, like, if you're, if you're afraid of cotton packed in little cool GI Joe missiles, then, then you're, you're the one that's a scaredy cat.
Tana:Um, oh, that's funny. But, but the same way I'm thinking of a pastor who's actually comfortable in his own authority, if we wanna call it that, would be willing to let people ask questions.
Don:Yeah, absolutely. Jeri says A drowning person will drag anyone down with them. Not through malice, but due to unrestrained fear. I, I certainly, yeah. Yeah. And, and again, I think that's why we need to have swimming classes. We need to offer we need to offer those types of things to, I mean, you can't mm-hmm. you know, having lifeguards at a swimming pool doesn't guarantee there won't be any drowning, but it does. Right. Reduce the fear of it. and it does reduce the, the possibility of it. So, yeah. Well, Tana, we're all caught up on questions. I think that means we're done, right? No. Oh, okay. Uh, so, so what would you like, uh, especially in a world where there's self scanning? I'm not sure what I, I, I, fifth Sunday, I'd love, uh, uh, a little bit more self scanning. I'm not sure what you mean. Yeah. I don't need, I I have a feeling you're talking about like, going through the, uh, grocery store, uh, faith floaties. Yes. Yes. I definitely believe in faith floaties. That should be a thing. So, Tana, um, what, what for you has been unsaid? I know there's a lot, uh, but what are, what are some things that have been unsaid, uh, so far in this conversation that you'd wanna make sure that. are, are some things that we wrestle with. Talk about,
Tana:I think now I get
Don:this Sunday. You are on point. I just was slow on the uptake.
Tana:Oh, Amanda has
Don:another question. I saw that. Okay. Thanks for doing my job. Amanda says, do you miss anything you shed from deconstruction?
Tana:Uh, I, I did for a while and now I mostly don't, but sometimes pops back up. Sometimes I miss that certainty, you know, and it wasn't the, the problem for me is that it wasn't my own certainty. Right? I, I just trusted that other people had the answer and, and so I was like, okay. That's, that's, that's what I believe. That's the answer. Um, and there are times when I kind of miss, like, I, I just heard somebody, I think it was in a TV show I was watching or something. There was like, they were like, oh, I miss when I was 18 and I had life figured out You know, and, and that's kind of how I feel sometimes of like, oh, sometimes I miss, just like feeling this certainty that this is what faith is and this is what we should believe in, and blah, blah, blah. And honestly, there are times I miss the ignorance. Hmm. Um, you know, I feel like life in a lot of ways was easier when I was very clueless about racism and misogyny and homophobia and all the pains in the world. And, you know, and then as soon as I started learning about those things, it was like, well, now I have to do something about it. and that can be very tiring and exhausting and depleting and demoralizing. you know, when you constantly see people harming other people and so yeah, some, some, I, I don't actually 100% miss that, but there are times when I'm like, life would be so much easier if I was just like, back in my ignorance as bliss
Don:phase. I, I know how I would answer this. I miss being the head of the household.
Tana:I'm gonna censor my response.
Don:Oh man. Uh, alright, next question. People are deconstructing leaving church in droves. Where do you see hope in this movement?
Tana:I think, I think that people are ready. To have a more open conversation about Christianity. Back when we started deconstructing, it was still pretty rare. Uh, and we
Don:faced, oh yeah, it was, it was the two of us and Brian McLaren, that was it,
Tana:And we faced a lot of opposition and from within the church especially. Um, and it was, it's a weird spot to be in if you think about it. Um, because for people who don't, who are non-religious, you know, they're just like, oh, you're drinking the Kool-Aid. And then the people who are fundamentalists are like, you're not drinking enough Kool-Aid, You know, and I'm just here going, I don't like Kool-Aid. But, uh, it, it, it's like you're getting it from both sides, right? Yeah. Either you're an idiot for believing in God. or you are a heretic for not believing in God
Don:properties. So where's your hope, Where do you see
Tana:hope? So the hope, I think we're finally at a point where more people are open to that. More people are open to asking the questions and exploring a new way forward. Yeah. That felt like I was gonna go onto it something else, but that was the end of my sentence,
Don:Well, I would say, you know, the whole question here I think is important. People are deconstructing and leaving the church. Mm-hmm. And for me, that breaks my heart that people are leaving the church. I, I'm okay with people ultimately deciding faith is not any longer something that they hold and they move on. But I think right now a lot of people see it only as an either or. that if I'm deconstructing, I have to leave the church. If I want to stay in the church, I can't deconstruct, and that's bullshit. The reality is the church needs people. Christianity. Christianity needs people to deconstruct their faith. That's the only way. The hope that I find is that deconstruction is the future of the church the same way it was at the Reformation, the same way that it was at other major moments throughout church history, where there were major changes in the way people view God viewed creation, viewed scripture. Those moments are significant and necessary, and the problem that the church has had historically is that instead of embracing it, it fights it. And I would argue that right now we have. A, a group of people who are asking some of the most important questions that should be being asked of the church and about the text and about doctrine and dogma. And instead of, instead of actually, um, how do I wanna say it? Cuz I don't, the last thing I be is sound disparaging to the people deconstructing these. That's not where my heart is at all. But instead of, instead of people thinking that they can stay and believing that they, they are okay to stay and question, and fight against and push against those things. Mm-hmm. they feel they have to leave. Right. And so my hope is in all this deconstruction is this is exactly what the church needs right now. The church need deconstruction is the gadfly of our generation to bite the church in the ass to get it moving again. My concern is, is that so many people have bought into the idea, That conservative interpretation, politically conservative interpretation of the Bible, hmm, is the, actually, is actually the true interpretation of the Bible. And therefore they have to reject the Bible. They have to reject God, and they have to reject Jesus. And that breaks my heart because there, that is the furthest thing from the truth. It has been co-opted by conservative, politically conservative Christians. And because of that, I have hope that this deconstruction process, if enough people stay and deconstruct within the faith that the church is gonna have a major reformation again. Uh, and, and I think that that's, that could be really beautiful. All right. Uh, what connected you? What kept you connected spiritually?
Tana:I don't think I understand the
Don:question. So for me, as I was deconstructing and feeling, my feet were planted in mid-air. I wasn't sure if there was a God because I didn't believe in hell I, there I was all of a sudden abandoning so many of my beliefs that that, and just the, the process of it led to, I also have to determine do I believe in God? Um, and for me it was scripture. Scripture actually is what kept me connected spiritually because I was able to, and quick teaser here by the way. But in the new year, we have a surprise that we're gonna be rolling out on A J F F, uh, for you folks that, uh, would be in potentially interested in this. But I can't tell you all the details yet because it's not public. So that being said, it was the reading of the text, it was studying scripture that, um, kept me connected and kept me spiritual, which I think is such a. Would be a surprise to many people going through deconstruction because they think that's the first thing they have to abandon is this book that says that God hates gay people and God hates, uh, whatever. Um, and so they think the very first thing they have to abandon is the scripture. And for me, that was the very thing that kept me connected spiritually.
Tana:Ditto.
Don:right? Amanda, what did you learn about yourselves and each other through it? That I'm the best kind of heretic as what? Tana learned.
Tana:Yes. That's what I learned. That I think we, I think that there were times that was actually really difficult. Um, Deconstructing the patriarchal nature of the church. Um, because we had to look at our own marriage and, uh, what we believed versus what was actually happening because we were both taught to behave a certain way in heterosexual relationships. Mm-hmm. um, you know, I've always been the type that looked to other people to understand what I believe. So, um, that was really easy to do in a church, uh, because I'd just be like, wow. A pastor will tell me and then I'll just parrot that, you know, um, right. And growing and that was a very strange noise.
Don:And then I looked away, but I was like, ah.
Tana:And then growing up it was very much my dad. I, I was sort of like, well, my, my dad will tell me what to believe in. So between the church and my dad, it was, you know, that was kind of it. And so then when we got married, I sort of just transferred that to Don and I was just like, well, he's always gonna have the right answer and, you know, et cetera, et cetera.
Don:And then, and now we know that is nowhere
Tana:near us And then there are moments when I was not, uh, I did disagree, um, but, but I wouldn't, maybe I wouldn't say anything or maybe I would kind of push back a little bit tentatively. But, um, my, I would always resort back to that, like head of the household stuff. And also Don's really good at arguing so that's, that made it difficult because, you know, he would offer a logical argument and I'd go. Okay. This still doesn't feel right, but I can't argue against that, you know, and we had a discussion at one point where, uh, Don was like, you know, Tona, you don't have to agree with me all the time. Right. You know that I'm okay with that. Right. And you can have your own opinions, you know that. Right. And Don, I hope you don't mind me sharing this, but I remember
Don:that I don't know what you're gonna share so I can't answer the question Sure, go for it.
Tana:I'm gonna just go for it. Uh, I remember when I finally started doing that, you, you told me later you were like, that was actually really hard for me. I wasn't expecting it to
Don:be difficult because I didn't realize how often you thought I was wrong. I know you're laughing about that, but that really was the complicated thing. Like early on in our relationship, you deferred to me as, as the head of the household. And because you deferred to me so much, I was left to imagine. that even if we did disagree or there would be change in this process as I, when I told you like, you know, like, you don't have to agree with me. I still thought you'd agree with me the majority of the time And, but I think we all feel that way. Am am I alone thinking that I would be, I'm right more often than I'm not. I, I think that we all kind of feel that way
Tana:about it. Well, and I also reinforced that in you for years,
Don:right? A hundred. I mean, I was bad in a hundred percent for the first 10 years of our marriage. I don't, and then, and then I just, I went in this slump for the next, uh, 16. I don't know.
Tana:Well, and I think also, There's a, a bit to that where I was like, oh, I can have my own opinion. And then I was like, I'm gonna share all the opinions So, you know, and,
Don:but I wouldn't trade that at all, by the way. And I hope, I hope people listening know that like, it was hard. It was, it was complicated for me. But here's the thing. I'd say there is no way that that weirdness and that difficulty that I went through was worse than you Tana always having to defer to me. Right? Right. It was super complicated for me to process. Um, and it's even humorous to look back on and, and laugh at, but it, it was nothing in comparison to what you went through. And, uh, and that's, that's a shame.
Tana:Yeah, I can imagine it would be that way for anybody in, of course, Noma, in whatever
Don:gender. I wasn't saying you uniquely had it bad.
Tana:No, no, I just meant it would be difficult if all of a sudden your partner was like, oh, dis disagreeing you after 10 years of
Don:you. Yeah. So Amanda, one of the things I'd say that I learned about myself and each other through it was I was not as good of a person as I thought I was. And that was hard. Mm-hmm. like both in kind of what we're adjusting about a little bit right now. The way that I treated Tana, the way I ex had expectations in our relationship, the way I had, um, the way I thought about myself as a queer person, um, the way I thought about other queer people, um, the way that I would even say the way I thought about race, um, the way I thought about socioeconomic issues. I just was not as good of a human. as my very checklist. Sin management, fundamentalist Christianity allowed my white maleness to imagine that I was Hmm. Um, and that was uniquely difficult. But I would also say unbelievably rewarding on the other side. Yeah. To be able to embrace myself as a pansexual male, um, to be able to, uh, affirm my friends in the LGBTQ community, um, to actually, um, function well in spaces where, uh, whiteness was not the predominant, uh, To learn all those things about myself. Um, I think a lot of people are deconstructing in the church because they were, they first started deconstructing in society. And that's a shame because the church should be what is always lead, in my opinion. I think ideally the church should be leading that place of safety, that place of making sure people are welcome, making sure people are cared for, making sure people are seen fully as human and the image of God. That seems to be the premise of, of my faith. Um, but I think a lot of people started to have these things happen in life with activism and with Black Lives Matter. I think Black Lives Matter is a huge part and even, um, and even the. the marriage equality bills and stuff that were passed, right. Those all, I think took a lot of people into deconstruction of their faith. Mm-hmm. And to me it's sad that as corrupt as politics are, as corrupt as, as things can be within government, that in a lot of ways our, the government, um, pushed, gave people that nudge. Um, so, and I would
Tana:say the shame about that is that the church would say then that that's culture. You're interpreting church and approaching church through culture, you know, and they would criticize the deconstruction from that standpoint that you're only deconstructing because the woke left has gotten to you or, or whatever. It's a,
Don:it's a straw man argument.
Tana:Yeah. And, but what they're not really. Recognizing what you said, that the church has failed to lead.
Don:We are at a moment where the sailors with Jonah and the sailors who are not people of Jewish faith, um, hear God and react to God better than God's own prophet. Mm, mm-hmm. And if you don't wanna know what I'm talking about, the book of Jonah is like five pages long Read it. The, the, the gentile, the pagan sailors who used lots who, who rolled dice to determine who was at fault for the storm. Honored Jonah. When they showed that Jonah was the reason for the fault of the storm, instead of throwing Jonah overboard, they threw away all their live. They threw away all the goods that they were transporting, they were gonna lose everything. But they protected Jonah. They behaved more like God than the prophet of God. And let me just say that I think that that's a moment we're at right now in history. The church is Jonah. God is called the church to be prophetic, to do important things to bring salvation. And when I say salvation, I mean safety to people. And the church hasn't done it. And so the example that we're living in right now is we're seeing the rest of the world behave the way that the church should have just naturally done it. Yeah. All right. I don't get to say this often at an end of a call in an interview, but babe, do you have anything else you wanna share?
Tana:uh, man. I feel like there's so much, but I'm having trouble, um, kind of digging through all of my, all of my thoughts to come up with a like, oh, we didn't talk about this. You know?
Don:Um, I imagine, although, you know, the person that does the scheduling for this, so you could probably find your way back on
Tana:That's probably true. I, I think I would just add that, um, reiterate that going through deconstruction with an, uh, a community is probably the best way with at least one other person is good as well. I think having to do it all on your own will just make you feel more isolated and, uh, cuz you're already gonna feel isolated because of your. You know, you're already gonna feel isolated because you are rejecting the teachings of your particular church or, or, or whatever. Yeah. Um, and I would also, I really think some, there is a missing ingredient for a lot of people, which is the, going back to scripture. I think that's what saved us in this. Um, I do too. And, and PE people feel like they have to, they have to jettison scripture because they were told that this scripture says this, and so therefore it's all bad when there, a lot of times the reality is no people in power wanted to stay in power and they wanted to continue to oppress people because it was good for them. The people in power, not for the oppressed people. Uh, and so they, I mean, think about the fact that the Bible wasn't even available to be read. by the commoner, you know, for a really long time. And so the ch so the church, the church leaders who were often in, in, uh, cahoots with the, the state, you know, so to speak, uh, were telling people what the, what this Bible said. We have this word of God and we're gonna tell you what it says. So to, to imagine that those people were really like, I don't know.
Don:So, so Tana, a lot of high schools have done some pretty shitty interpretations of Romeo and Juliet, yet we have not rejected Shakespeare. Right, right. And there's a lot of churches that have done some pretty shitty interpretations of the Bible. Yeah. And I hope that we don't reject God because of that. And I think some people are gonna come to that conclusion and I embrace that and I want them to do what's best for their health and their wellbeing. But I don't think it's a given. And I think unfortunately a lot of people, they begin the deconstruction process and I think a lot of people have in their mind that the likelihood is I walk away. Mm-hmm. as opposed to the likelihood is I stay, but with something profoundly different and more beautiful.
Tana:Yeah. Yeah. I think sometimes even just having it in the mind that you can walk away even if you don't ultimately walk away Yeah. Is freeing. It's
Don:absolutely freedom. Yeah. You're not trapped. Yeah. All right friends. Well I have been so grateful for you hanging out with us this whole time, Tana. Yeah, it was fun. Um, and I wanna just a quick shout out. It's not fair to do in the last five minutes when only a few people are still hanging on, but. Tana is absolutely at the heart of a J F F. Without Tana, we do not schedule guests without Tana. We do not have social media without Tana. We do not have edited podcasts without Tana. Basically, we don't have a J fff. So Tana, I am so unbelievably grateful to you. You are, you are listening to me and you are a blessing to the community. And thank you for all the work you do behind the scenes and particularly tonight. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and your beauty of intelligence and care and compassion for people. I'm so grateful to you.
Tana:You are way too kind. But thank you, I enjoyed it. It was.
Don:Awesome. All right folks. Well, if, uh, if you want check out all of our different social media places, feel free to swing by Buy me a coffee.com/aj fff if you'd like to support the show at all. Also, check out our website, uh, ancient jesus future faith.com, as well as our YouTube channel beyond this, because we have lots of shorts, we have lots of, uh, our podcast are put there. And please check out, uh, wherever you get podcasts. And please rate us and give us a comment. Be honest, even if it's a one star, no star, we would love to have you still rate and comment. All right, friends, I hope you have a beautiful night and I will hopefully see you Monday. Bye
Tana:bye.