Ancient Jesus/Future Faith

202. Jacob the Wrestler and Esau the Hunter

• Ancient Jesus Future Faith

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In this episode, we continue our discussion of the family of Rebekah by exploring the life of Jacob. From Jacob wrestling in the womb with Esau to wrestling with God, we discuss Jacob's consistent struggles through life as well as his relationship with different members of his family. We also uncover all the things Esau has in common with Prince Harry!

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Tana:

Okay, so now I'm seeing even more parallels with Prince Harry. I wasn't expecting to be thinking about Prince Harry the Bible this morning, but,

Don:

I am just angry that now forever when I read Esau, I'm going to have to think about Prince Harry. Thank you and congratulations to all of our audience that you are now stuck with this imagery.

Sarah:

That's amazing.

Tana:

Hello Welcome to the Ancient Jesus Future Faith Podcast. I am one of your hosts, Tana Schiewer, and I'm here as always with Sarah Mainardi.

Sarah:

Hello

Tana:

and Don Schiewer.

Don:

Hey.

Tana:

And, uh, we're excited to be back at it. We kind of took a little break and, um, in our recording time,

Don:

It didn't feel little.

Tana:

It was, it was a long break

Don:

actually, I think the last time we recorded was before Christmas.

Tana:

It was, it was like a couple weeks before Christmas. So, um, so yeah. So we're excited to be back at it and we're going to sort of continue our story. Our, our last recorded podcast episode that wasn't a bonus episode was about Rebekah. And so we're going to, uh, continue with the family story and focus on Jacob today. And, uh, I'm gonna start off by reading a little bit about the birth story of Jacob and Esau. Uh, I'm gonna, you know, I don't wanna spend too much time reading a lot, so I'm gonna kind of poke around here. So starting in, um, Genesis. Oh no. My, my page just,

Don:

oh, no, no, no, no, no.

Tana:

This is something that doesn't happen when you have a paper Bible. It doesn't like suddenly reload the page. Um, Genesis 25, um, verse 22 talking about Rebekah, um, being pregnant with twins. And it says"the children struggled together within her. And she said,'if it is to be this way, why do I live?' So she went to inquire of the Lord and the Lord said to her,'Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples born of you shall be divided. One shall be stronger than the other and the elder shall serve the younger.' When her time to give birth was at hand, there were twins in her womb. The first came out red. All his body like hairy mantle, so they named him Esau. After his brother came out with his hand gripping Esau's heel, he was named Jacob. Isaac was 60 years old when she bore them. When the boys grew up, Esau was a skillful hunter, a man in the field while Jacob was a quiet man living in the tents. Isaac loved Esau because he was fond of game, but Rebekah loved Jacob." So, um, I guess my first question is the question that you, you usually ask Don, which is, what have you been taught about this passage?

Don:

Nice. Yeah. Well, I, I think that there's this, this part of the text, I actually don't I think it's glossed over.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Don:

I, I don't know that I've heard any kind of in depth teaching, like on a Sunday morning or even in Sunday school, outside of the wrestling in the womb is often made a big deal of

Tana:

mm-hmm

Don:

and the gripping of the ankle.

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Don:

and maybe Esau being redheaded.

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Sarah:

Mm-hmm.

Don:

But outside of that, I, I'm not really sure I was, I was taught much about this. I don't know. What about you, Sarah?

Sarah:

Yeah, it's more like, just like the intro into other Jacob and Esau issues.

Don:

Right, right. Like I think we definitely, we definitely value in the church the other things other than necessarily this section.

Sarah:

Yeah. But I love this in the text, like just how much we see an emphasis on birth stories and that we don't, we miss out in modern day, you know?

Tana:

Hmm.

Sarah:

It's cool. Like finding, like,

Don:

what do you mean by that?

Sarah:

Like finding significance in birth stories that, how. A child is born and what is experienced during that time is precious and, um, sacred and you know. There's people who go way deep into it. I only know like surface level, so, but yeah. Even like my daughter, Meadow is actually a twin and, but I forget the term for it, where like within like six to ten weeks the other twin gets absorbed.

Don:

Mm-hmm.

Tana:

Oh, wow I didn't know that.

Sarah:

Yeah. And there's a, there's rabbit trails that I, like I said, I only dipped my toe and I didn't go too far. Just about the significance of that. Like, will she always grow up knowing that like, oh, she had a twin and theories and things like that about that.

Don:

That's so much.

Tana:

Oh, interesting.

Sarah:

Yeah. And like also like, do I ever tell her that? Like I don't, I don't know. You know, like, right.

Don:

Yeah.

Sarah:

You know, sometimes I even forget the fact because it was, just kind of a little, a little blip in, in the birth story, but yeah.

Don:

So what I, so first of all, that's really interesting. Yeah. And I think it is a shame that we don't necessarily spend any time thinking about those things. But I was, what I, I would received when you first said that was similar to, you know, so much of our life is removed from firsthand, right? Um, like. when you think about where you get your food, I, I forget, I was watching a video one time and kids, kids were like, didn't necessarily understand that chicken nuggets.

Sarah:

Yeah, were chicken.

Don:

Chicken, the bird, reduced in size greatly and because of that, there's like a, a separation. There is not an experience around death.

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Don:

and what the cost of food is really is beyond having to spend the time to go to the grocery store and stuff. And we do the same thing with funerals now.

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Don:

Instead of having the parlor in our home, we've changed that- I mean, we even renamed it Living Room to get rid of the stigma of it being a parlor where we showed a body where we, where the body was probably cared for and everything. And so death has been removed from our households and taken to a funeral home and prepared there, and then we come back into that space at a later time. And so when you were talking about that, I was thinking, my mind immediately kind of went into that vein of thought, which is, you know, unless you're using a doula or a midwife, you're oftentimes, you're even somewhat removed from the process. I, I,

Sarah:

Yeah, births have been removed from the home too.

Don:

Yes. Yep. So the birth is no longer in the home.

Sarah:

Mm-hmm.

Don:

Uh, and believe me, I am a fan of painkillers for those types of events.

Tana:

Right.

Don:

I'm not suggesting that women should not use any kind of, uh, medicine to help with the scenario, but there's so much of out of good decision making and health and wellbeing. We've actually become detached from some of those things. So that's, that's kind of where my mind when, when you said about the birth, uh, a birth narrative isn't, isn't as significant now.

Tana:

Yeah.

Don:

So,

Tana:

Hmm, hmm. You know, um,

Don:

Now I wanna talk about birth, uh, birth narratives.

Tana:

Actually, that could be a whole podcast episode just talking about birth narratives. Um, the one question I had is, is there any, is this just descriptive or is there any significance to Esau being red and hairy?

Sarah:

Hmm.

Don:

So I think for the most part it, it really is just kind of descriptor a lot of this stuff is a play on his redness.

Tana:

Yeah. Right. That

Don:

Whether it's a soup, whether it's his hair

Tana:

mm-hmm.

Don:

uh, even the sense of there being like anger, um, and, you know, violence and stuff. I, I think that there's a lot of playfulness in using the term red and having it utilized so often around this story, I'm sure you could find someone somewhere who, uh, you know, a historian or something that can find even greater significance than that, but I don't know of anything. What about you, Sarah?

Sarah:

Well, it just makes me think that a lot of times the names came from the birth narrative.

Don:

Yeah.

Sarah:

It wasn't like thinking of a name

Tana:

Oh,

Sarah:

beforehand.

Tana:

Right.

Sarah:

But like when the baby arrives either like a descriptor or something that it seems like in this time period that that's more where the names came from.

Tana:

Yeah. Like cuz Jacob's name is like he supplants or he grips or something like that.

Sarah:

Yeah. It just makes me imagine that they're like paying so much attention to like what's happening in the birth and they treasured it so much that Yeah, they looked there for names except maybe if, unless they were passing a name down.

Tana:

Oh yeah. But there's actually something really beautiful to that.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Tana:

Well, the thing, um, I think that's interesting is, I mean, they tell the, the quick birth story and then they talk, they kind of like fast forward and, you know, Esau's a Hunter and Jacob's a quiet man. Um, and they end with sort of like this pitting of Isaac versus Rebekah by saying, well, Isaac loved Esau, but Rebekah loved Jacob. And it's, it's interesting because they, to me, because they talk about the twins fighting in the womb, and then it's almost like, well, then the parents chose sides you know? Yeah. But obviously it sets up, um, the narrative for later. So if you don't mind, I was gonna read the next...

Don:

I'm not, I'm not quite ready to move on.

Tana:

Okay.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Don:

Um, go ahead.

Sarah:

I wanted to say something about like, like whenever I read that Esau or, um, Isaac loved Esau, Rebekah loved Jacob, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it always just like, is like a red flag to me that like, if we take this literally, then people think that like Rebekah only loved Jacob and

Tana:

mm-hmm.

Sarah:

and Isaac only loved Esau.

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Sarah:

and like for me, I just kind of like autocorrect and maybe I shouldn't do this, but auto correct it to more be like favored.

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Sarah:

you know, or just automatically add the nuance behind it that we're not, they're not trying to make a statement here of black and white love and hate, but that it's, there's definitely like a favoring

Tana:

mm-hmm

Sarah:

or a closeness to that.

Tana:

But even with that, that kind of goes against our sensibilities of you're not supposed to have a favorite kid.

Sarah:

Yeah, yeah. True.

Don:

Well, and then we're all lying to each other.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Don:

Malcolm is absolutely my favorite.

Tana:

Malcolm is my favorite kid. Yeah.

Don:

Malcolm is my favorite kid. Malcolm is an only child for the listener. Uh, I think to what you're saying, right? So in the New Testament, particularly in the gospels, there's this phrase, unless you hate your, both, your mother and your father and your brother and sister, you know that you, it's talking about hating them and loving Jesus slash God. Right? And that, again, is not the way we use hate.

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Don:

It really means, uh, favor, I think is a great term, right? The, the implication there is that in order to bring about the safety of people in an oppressive regime and in a setting in which harm is happening, you must sometimes make a decision that goes against what your family would want you to do in order to help bring about that salvation or that safety. And that's more so what's being talked there, which is profound. And we've all had that where our parents, uh, and us are not on the same page. And we have to make a decision about what we believe is good for our own household as we get older or better for the community around us. So, What is being said there by Jesus or what's being said here in this text in Genesis is really nothing different than we often experience. I think what we're, what the text is trying to set us up for is kind of this wrestling match, as you said, Tana, this whole sections about wrestling.

Tana:

Mm.

Don:

The boys wrestled in the womb.

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Don:

the parents wrestle over the blessing.

Tana:

Mm.

Don:

And Jacob will eventually wrestle even with God.

Tana:

Mm.

Don:

And so wrestling is very much a motif that's happening here, so

Tana:

that's interesting.

Don:

I do wanna point out, we mentioned it in the Rebekah podcast. If you haven't listened to that, highly recommend checking it out. But we mentioned in the Rebekah podcast, and we see it here. God speaks to Rebekah, not Isaac.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Tana:

Um, oh, right.

Don:

Yeah. So this is the, this is the moment in this section of the text where God, uh, speaks to Rebekah and tells Rebekah what's going on in her womb.

Tana:

Mm.

Don:

And what's happening. We see that a couple other places, Mary, uh,

Tana:

Elizabeth?

Don:

We see it with, uh, actually I think Elizabeth's husband's the one that is approached.

Tana:

Okay.

Don:

Uh, because he doesn't, he doesn't quite listen, pay attention. He ends up becoming mute.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Don:

Uh, during that. Uh, so, but yeah, so we see it with Mary

Tana:

mm-hmm

Don:

again, right? So there's just all these really interesting and significant pieces that are in here that kind of go against our expected gender norms,

Sarah:

mm-hmm.

Don:

gender roles that are happening here that are, are interesting and powerful. Setting up probably one of the most interesting and powerful stories in the book of Genesis, if not in the entire Bible.

Tana:

You know, and I didn't even think about the, the part of, um, God speaking to Rebekah when I was like, you know, why does Rebekah favor Jacob? And then why does she help later with the, you know,

Don:

because God basically tells her that.

Tana:

Right, exactly. I was like, I didn't even think about the fact that he was like, and the elder she'll serve the younger, so she was probably like, oh well. I need to fulfill what this, you know what this said. So...

Don:

Yeah. And I can't imagine that doesn't put in your head at some level, right? Like extra care and precaution for the child that you perceive as the one that God has ordained to go about and do something. And a lot of this is presupposing that this is all historical, right?

Tana:

Right, right. The thing I find funny though about it is, um, I mean cuz we have, we have things even now where, you know, um, there's still lines like in, uh, Britain, you know, the, the first born will be the king or queen or you know, and the second born doesn't get anything it just goes down that line of the first born, et cetera. And, but there's normally like years separating them. And I just find this so funny because it's like one kid popped out, then the next kid popped out and was like, well, that's the older, that's the birth rate. That's the, and it's just...

Don:

do either of you know of any royalty stories where it was twins.

Tana:

Oh. Oh.

Don:

I don't,

Tana:

I don't, I don't know.

Don:

I mean, not that I... I know about three royalty stories and all of them have princesses and fairy godmothers, so I'm, I'm pretty limited in my,

Sarah:

Hey, this could be the next blockbuster. Let's write it.

Tana:

I'm just suddenly like, oh wait. Harry's a redhead. Prince Harry's a redhead. What are the, what are the parallels? Like, no, but, he's the younger one. So anyway, uh, no, I don't know of any, any twin, twin stories.

Don:

And I, another thing I think is important for the reader of the text to recognize is that birthright and blessing are two different things.

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Don:

I think we combine them.

Sarah:

Oh yeah. Yeah.

Don:

Like we assume the birthright is the same thing

Sarah:

yeah

Don:

as the blessing.

Tana:

Yeah.

Don:

Um, but Esau had already, well, which we'll read about soon, will have already given up

Tana:

spoilers!

Don:

His birthright, but then there is still the possibility of, of Esau receiving the blessing and Esau was not giving up the blessing. Right.

Tana:

Right.

Sarah:

Mm-hmm.

Don:

Esau gave up the birthright and not the blessing.

Sarah:

Yeah. He didn't have anything to do with that.

Don:

Yeah. And you get the impression that he wanted the blessing.

Tana:

Well, you just clarified something in advance for me.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Tana:

Because I was reading them as the same thing.

Don:

Mm.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Don:

And I was like, why is this happening again? Okay. All right. So are we ready to go to the next part or you still have...?

Sarah:

Yeah, I mean, the one thing I was gonna say is that just our wonderings made me further wonder, like, did Rebekah even tell Isaac what the Lord said to her?

Tana:

Mm.

Sarah:

And so did Isaac favor Esau because of the natural like birthright feeling and like, you know,

Tana:

right.

Sarah:

Firstborn

Tana:

Right. I'm gonna favor the firstborn

Sarah:

yeah, type of situation,

Don:

but that's interesting.

Tana:

But it does say he liked, um, he loved Esau because he was fond of game.

Don:

Yeah. Not because the kid was cool, right?

Tana:

Yeah. Just like he hunts and gives me meat.

Don:

Yeah. This, this whole section and, and honestly just makes Isaac feel so shallow and

Tana:

it really does

Don:

I don't think that's the intention. I don't think that that's what the, the Bible is going for. Uh, maybe to our more western eyes and sensibilities and reading it so much longer or later after the fact that it does, it just makes him seem like, and he loved Esau. Why? Because, yeah, he, he brought home fresh meat.

Tana:

But honestly, after having the conversation we had about Rebekah and about how Rebekah was depicted as strong and, and, um, the narrative was all about her and not like necessarily the men and everything. Uh, it, it's, it was very interesting to then go on and read this story because in light of that, because it was almost like I always separated the stories.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Tana:

And a lot of times I get, I think, I think I even just kept flipping the names last time. Like I would get like Isaac and Jacob and everybody confused. Um, So that's, that's fascinating to me too because this also again shows, you know what, which we'll get to, spoiler alert, Rebekah, like getting her way with who gets the blessing and everything. Yeah. You know, so that's, that's an interesting through line to me that is still kind of Rebekah.

Don:

There's no doubt in these stories. Jacob, and I would even say Esau for that matter, take after mom more than after dad.

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Don:

And, and like I said, I, I'd include Esau with that as well. Yeah. Esau is, is strong, motivated, autonomous,

Tana:

mm-hmm.

Don:

um, a self thinker, right? And willing to do what Esau thought was best for himself. Um, so there's just lots of really interesting things here. And the power of Rebekah, again is just felt all throughout this section.

Sarah:

Yeah,

Tana:

yeah, yeah.

Sarah:

And I would just say to that point that like getting the story straightened up, but sometimes it's nice to go like in read the Bible in order to kind of straighten those things out. And, but like sometimes we just had to like step back and try to get a bird's eye view of what's going to help us straighten out who these characters are.

Tana:

Yeah.

Sarah:

And like reading the Bible in a different way, in like a skimming way, um, of like paying attention to like, where does Abimelech pop up multiple times.

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Sarah:

Where, you know, and instead of like, I think reading the Bible in a year, plans are great, but like then you're just in like your huge section for the day and like you're in it and you're getting a grasp of it, but then you're like in the weeds.

Tana:

Yeah.

Sarah:

But sometimes if you can like pull yourself out of the weeds and try to like, Draw some parallels or draw like that through line.

Tana:

Yeah,

Sarah:

that connecting line. Um, and that's where, like we've mentioned before, like giving your own headings to the text.

Don:

Yeah.

Sarah:

The headings to the chapters.

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Sarah:

giving your own names.

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Sarah:

because then you can look at those headings and it helps you put everything into the order it is and then where to find them. And it helps connect some dots. I mean, it's kind of like, I think how we learn history in school. We remember bits and pieces of it, but because one year in school you're kind of focused on a certain part of history and then another, or like in music class, you're learning about composers, but in history you're actually talking about the same time period. But it seems so different to like actually kind of step back and, and, and do the little extra step of like, wait a minute. Mozart was alive in the 1700s and

Tana:

Yeah.

Sarah:

What was going on in America in the 1700s? So Europe and America were very different.

Tana:

Yes.

Sarah:

But they're always taught separately.

Tana:

Yes.

Sarah:

It's like very different things are happening at the exact same time, which is true today still, right? Very different things are happening in very different parts of the world.

Tana:

Right.

Sarah:

But yeah, I mean it's why I love going over history. I homeschool my daughter and like, cause I feel like now I'm getting the chance to connect dots and connect things across continents and oceans that were happening at the same time.

Tana:

Yeah, I, I, there were times that I would read something about like, you know, like European history or whatever Yeah. And something that was happening in the date, and then I'd be like,"oh, wait a minute, at that time in America..." like, and it is interesting, it's like we do kind of just see these stories as like completely separate.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Tana:

And the, and sometimes when I'm reading the Bible, I feel like I need a wiki. Like, you know how they'll be like fandoms, like Game of Thrones and they'll be like a Game of Thrones Wiki. I don't have like each character listed and then like their relation to other characters and I'm just like, I need a cheat sheet like that sometimes, because, especially because you know, you were saying about, writing your own headings so you kind of can remember where things are in the story and everything. Um, I think we've talked about this before, that the headings that are put into the Bibles can actually prevent us from reading a cohesive story.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Don:

And so there are times when I'm like, well, I just wanna like, just take'em all out and just read and see. Like, I kind of wonder if, if those are actually preventing me from seeing it as a cohesive story.

Sarah:

Yeah, absolutely.

Tana:

And be like, oh, right, that's the same person from before. Like, it's almost like Rebekah in my mind was like, oh, there's a Rebekah over here and there's a Rebekah over here.

Sarah:

Yep. And as you start to do like the, the chapter headings, if you're using a text that has chapter headings or is it pericopes?

Don:

Pericopes, yes.

Sarah:

I'm getting it. Um, it's like when I, I'm trying to make up a heading, I'm almost like feel challenged to make it different than what they put.

Tana:

Right.

Sarah:

So at least you're reading the text carefully enough to not just give into what's already been like

Don:

Yeah

Sarah:

the answer sometimes I was like, well that is pretty much what it is. There's no

Don:

yeah

Sarah:

thing here, but you can, you can discover interesting things by comparing that. But, spoiler alert, you know, Bible overview, we gotta get that going cuz that's exactly what it covers. So I'm hoping to put together a Bible overview class that. Put on our platforms and things like that, that will help with that stepping back, bird's eye view things. Cuz it changed my life. Just being able to straight trace the line of Abraham and like all through, even geographically on maps and things, put it all together.

Tana:

Yeah.

Sarah:

And it's like suddenly my brain has the file folders to like, keep this stuff organized. Yeah.

Tana:

So, yeah. Cool, cool. Um, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna read the next part.

Sarah:

Yeah, let's do it.

Tana:

Okay. Uh, so this was starting in verse 20."Once when Jacob was cooking a stew, Esau came in from the field and he was famished. Esau said to Jacob,'let me eat some of that red stuff, for I am famished, famished.' Therefore, he was called Edom. Jacob said,'first, sell me your birthright.' Esau said,'I'm about to die of what uses a birthright to me?' Jacob said,'swear to me first.' So he swore to him and sold his birthright to Jacob. Then Jacob gave Esau bread and lentil stew, and he ate and drank and rose and went his way. Thus Esau despised his birthright." This passage, has always been so confounding to me cuz I'm like, man, Esau is like dramatic. Like, I'm so hungry I'm gonna die. Like it just feels like so overdone. And then he is like, I want some lentil soup and bread. So sure you can have my birthright. Like, it just feels so strange to me, the whole story.

Sarah:

I mean, the only thing I could think is like, this is just a lot of assumption, but like this is so far removed from how we access our food. So like him being out, um, in the hard work of hunting, I don't know what that's like and, and how long he's been where he hasn't eaten anything. You know, he didn't take a protein bar in his back pocket, you know, and then like to get home and it's not like he can just go into the pantry and get a bag of, of chips instead of eating the stew, and the stew just smelled better. But like, maybe that was like the only thing ready in the tent to be eaten.

Tana:

Yeah.

Sarah:

And he had not eaten for so long that it's not like he has multiple options and he's just in a desperate state.

Don:

I, I also think that there's just something much, possibly much simpler, which is, Esau just didn't care.

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Tana:

Well, that's how it ends with, says he despised his birthright.

Don:

Well, I mean, but I think that again, adds an emotion.

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Don:

Right? That I, I'm not certain is, is as powerful. Maybe it is, you know, to me there's part of this that I respect Esau.

Tana:

Hmm.

Don:

Because, I'm sure Esau and Jacob by this point know the story of their grandpa Abraham.

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Don:

And, and Grandpa Abraham's experience with the Lord and the, uh, po- potential of putting Isaac to death. And they know the story and they know the promises that God made to Abraham, and, and think about this. Esau might have been like, that's too much.

Tana:

I was just thinking Esau may have been like, well, I don't wanna be the firstborn

Don:

Well, I mean, I think you can make that, and that is, that is humorous to think about. Like he saw what happened to dad.

Tana:

Right, right.

Don:

But I don't think we often pause very long. This goes to that bird's eye overview.

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Don:

like it was grandpa. It was, it was Papa Ham that, uh, that wanted to kill his dad and had this blood path experience, made a covenant with God was going to be a blessing to the entire world. And, and to me, I wonder if Esau regrets that he won the wrestling match to get out of the womb first.

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Don:

uh, like if we're gonna have it historical and we're gonna give thought to these

Tana:

mm-hmm

Don:

individuals in the womb.

Sarah:

Mm-hmm.

Tana:

Right. Mm-hmm.

Don:

that, that's a lot. Yeah. I mean, think about what, what was being, what was going to be expected of either is Esau or Isaac, or, I'm sorry, Jacob. And it, it, it's significant and it seems to me Esau is kind of an introvert, wants to go out and just be alone and hunt wants to get away, is not looking to, to do some of those things. I, to me, I just wonder if we give Esau a bad rep here.

Sarah:

Hmm.

Don:

And which one of us, if our parents were of great esteem or held a role, and maybe this is where you can point back Tana to your, uh, what Prince Harry,

Tana:

mm-hmm.

Don:

He didn't want to be royalty.

Tana:

Well,

Don:

no, but I, I don't really care to debate his emotions or anything about the, uh, the monarchy. Uh, or I guess it's not a monarchy anymore anyhow. Oh, it's still monarchy. I, uh, so anyhow, whatever. This is why I don't want to debate it but there's a weight to being royalty.

Tana:

Yeah.

Don:

There's a weight to be who the promise is being fulfilled through and there's part of me i, I think Esau came back in from the field was hungry, and his brothers like, give me the birthright.

Tana:

He's like, oh, good.

Don:

Yeah. There's probably relief.

Tana:

Yeah.

Don:

And a sense of like, I can now just live the life I want to live.

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Don:

Right? He doesn't marry, quote unquote properly.

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Don:

uh, as we learn. And so Esau uh, goes out and experiences life the way Esau wants to experience life. And to me, I'm, I admire it.

Tana:

Okay, so now I'm seeing even more parallels with Prince Harry. I wasn't expecting to be thinking about Prince Harry the Bible this morning, but,

Don:

I am just angry that now forever when I read Esau, I'm going to have to think about Prince Harry. Thank you and congratulations to all of our audience that you are now stuck with this imagery.

Sarah:

That's amazing.

Tana:

So funny. I also find it interesting, I have no idea if there's any, like, anything to this, any symbolism or whatever that Esau is, like the hunter, you know, and the thing that he gives up his birthright for is a, a vegetable based soup or, um, what's it called? Um, Uh,

Don:

stew,

Tana:

but I was thinking more of like what a lentil is. That's a, is that a bean more so, or, I don't know. Anyway, I was like,

Don:

wow, Prince Harry. We're gonna also get in some culinary arts

Tana:

I don't know. I just thought, I kind of thought that was funny.

Don:

Yeah, I think, but again, I think that the hunter part is also kind of a throwback to

Tana:

mm-hmm.

Don:

uh, Cain and Abel's story and

Tana:

I didn't think about that.

Don:

Uh, what was the name of the, uh, he was also referred to as a hunter and had a bad rep right? And he was the founder of the city Nimrod.

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Don:

And hunters are, that is a shortcut for, um, not being, uh, I wanna be careful here because I'm not a hundred percent sure how it has typically been done, whether or not it's just a character flaw or whether it's a not Torah minded in rabbinic tradition about this I, this concept of hunter, but hunter is oftentimes a, an indicator of some disconnect with God and Torah. And so even him being referred to as a hunter, do either of you know why hunters are viewed as a disconnect?

Tana:

Because they kill animals?

Don:

Oh, we kill animals. Uh, already by the time since after the flood.

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Don:

animals were killed for food. So that's not, no,

Sarah:

I don't know.

Don:

It was because a hunter can't guarantee a humane.

Sarah:

Hmm mm-hmm.

Don:

And so since God made covenant with even the animals a hunter, though I would argue all most hunters, if not all hunters desire a clean kill.

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Don:

um, maybe selfishly so they don't have to chase this thing bleeding out across the countryside. But you can't guarantee a clean kill. And therefore there's a part of it that is counter to the way God has made a covenant with all the world. So anyhow.

Tana:

Mm-hmm. That's interesting. Yeah. Cause I would think, yeah, there's just the nature of hunting wouldn't be able to make you guarantee that, so.

Don:

Correct.

Tana:

Yeah. That's interesting. Um, any other thoughts on this part?

Sarah:

Nope.

Tana:

Okay. Did we wanna, um, move on to the blessing?

Sarah:

Yeah.

Don:

Sure.

Tana:

Okay. So it's a pretty long, uh, passage.

Don:

I wouldn't read the blessing.

Tana:

Okay.

Don:

I'd read like what leads up to the blessing. I think that there's fascinating stuff within the blessing, but that's more poetry.

Tana:

Uh huh. Oh, I wasn't talking about, I just meant like the pa- the stuff leading up to the blessing is pretty long, but

Don:

Okay.

Tana:

Um, so I can try to summarize.

Don:

Good. Yeah.

Tana:

All right. So, um, the idea is that Isaac was older and says his eyes were dim so that he could not see. And um, Isaac wants to give Esau his, uh, blessing, but Rebekah wants Jacob to get it. So when Esau was out hunting, um, Rebekah, um, she put something on Isaac or Jacob, I'm doing it again, um, to make him like more like hairy, like, like Esau.

Don:

Um, it seems to me more than Isaac's eyes are dim at this point. if that, if that works, right?

Tana:

Yeah. I, I don't, I, yeah, I'm curious. So anyway, so, um, and uh, Isaac had asked for game, so, um, Rebekah, you know, says, oh, go get two choice kids, um, I'm assuming that's not children. Um, so they may, so I may prepare from them savory food for your father and you shall take it to your father to eat so that he may bless you before he dies. Um, and uh, so basically Isaac gives Jacob the blessing instead because he thinks he's Esau and that's. I don't know if that was a very good mess summary, but

Don:

Thoughts, Sarah?

Sarah:

Yeah. My translation actually says when Isaac was old and his eyes were so weak that he could not see.

Tana:

Oh, just could not see.

Don:

And listen that this is hinting towards something that we're gonna read in the future, which is what any guesses what the eyes being

Tana:

not being able to see?

Don:

Isaac's eyes being weak.

Tana:

Oh. Oh. It's on the tip of my tongue.

Don:

Leah.

Tana:

Thank you.

Don:

Leah's eyes are weak. Yes, it says, and Leah had weak eyes and we turned that into being

Tana:

She was ugly.

Don:

She was ugly. Yeah. Uh, but Leah had weak eyes, so, or again, you know, this is, this is where I think the, the way we're doing this is the way we kind of have to in, in a podcast, but we're kind of missing some things because there's all kinds of overlap of language and imagery that are gonna happen continually throughout this story. So I can't recommend enough for the listener viewer to actually go and take about 20 minutes, 25 minutes and read the entire Jacob story.

Tana:

Yes.

Don:

I think it's going to be much more impactful. Yeah. Anything else Sarah?

Sarah:

No.

Don:

So this section is also interesting. So Tana, can you do me a favor?

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Don:

And jump ahead.

Tana:

mm-hmm.

Don:

to, uh, Jacob's Ladder. And we can come back if we skipped anything. And, but can you go ahead to Jacob's Ladder and read the promise? Like Jacob says, if you allow me a certain and he gives a God a list of things,

Sarah:

Okay, I think I got it.

Tana:

Okay. Thank you,

Sarah:

This is Genesis 28, verse 20."Then Jacob made a vow. If God will be with me and watch over me on this journey, if he provides me with food to eat, in clothing to wear, and if I return safely to my father's house, then the Lord will be my God. The stone that I've set up as a marker will be God's house, and I will give to you a 10th of all that you give me."

Don:

So think about those three elements. What are the three elements?

Sarah:

um, food to eat and clothing to wear.

Don:

Yep. And my father's house.

Sarah:

Father's house, yeah.

Don:

Those are the things that I think Jacob longs for.

Tana:

Right.

Don:

Because his father preferred Esau's food.

Sarah:

Hmm.

Don:

His, he had to dress up in other clothes in order to be given the blessing and his dad would not have given him the blessing if it wasn't for the trickery.

Tana:

Right.

Don:

And I don't, so I don't think Jacob comes out of this unscathed.

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Sarah:

Mm-hmm.

Don:

Jacob feels the, the loss, right.

Tana:

Yeah.

Don:

That, to me, I think there's something beautiful about that. Jacob wants to fix all the things, like Jacob's, like, if you allow me to have good food, you allow me to wear my own clothes. And you allow me to return to my dad, then I'll do this. I, I just think it's really, again, another sweet moment in the text that our speed and quickness that we read through, or the fact that we would never read this at the same time that we're, uh, this earlier part about the blessing.

Tana:

Yeah.

Don:

We would break it up and we would read it on a different day or because of all the chapter headings or the brokenness of the text over chapters, we missed this moment. Um, so anyhow, I just wanted to draw attention to that because I think it's important to see that Jacob doesn't walk away from this unscathed.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Don:

He's hurting too. He wanted and longed for the love of his father.

Tana:

This, you know, I, I have to ask a, a question about this whole, um, the whole blessing thing, uh, because, you know, in the passage Jacob asks, uh, or I'm sorry, Isaac asks Jacob, who he is, and Jacob's like, I'm Esau.

Don:

Mm-hmm.

Tana:

you know, and um, and then he blesses him. assuming he's Esau, and then when Esau comes in later is like, Hey, I brought you your game now. Bless me. Um, you know, Isaac's like, well then wait, no, who did I bless? Um, and it just, I'm wondering what the, what the significant, there's, I feel like there's something I'm missing in this story because it feels like, I don't know, like this accidental blessing and now it's just gone. And Esau can't get a blessing. Like, what am I not understanding here?

Don:

Tradition.

Tana:

It's just tradition.

Don:

Yeah. I mean, it was believed that you had one opportunity to give the blessing. You gave the blessing, and once you gave the blessing, it was sealed and done.

Tana:

So sh- that's just, I have a hard time wrapping my brain around that.

Don:

Well, it's because you're 4,000, 5,000 years later and we, uh, have legal courts that would argue against that.

Tana:

Well, well, I guess, I guess then my question is, what is the blessing? What's the significance of the blessing?

Don:

It's that Jacob will become the father of Israel.

Tana:

Mm.

Don:

Like Jacob is going to fulfill the promise of Abraham.

Tana:

Hmm hmm. Okay.

Don:

Right. So that combination with the birthright and therefore, uh, inheritance like physical inheritance and lineage was given to Jacob. But then also the passing on of the wellbeing of the promise of God with Abraham was also passed on to him.

Tana:

Hmm. Okay. Yeah. It's just such a difficult thing for me to grasp cuz it's not, you know, it's not our lived experience and

Don:

Yeah. And, and in some ways it's, it's not even historical.

Tana:

Right, right,

Don:

right? Like it's, it's just a, it's a story to explain how we got to where we got. And the author isn't interested in giving any legalese. Well, would that hold up in court? They're just not interested in any of those conversations.

Tana:

So, um, I don't remember, uh, the, the, what God says to Rebekah when he saw in Jacob are in her womb, is that there's two nations.

Don:

Mm-hmm.

Tana:

struggling in her womb. What nation comes from Esau.

Sarah:

The Edomites.

Don:

Yeah. Remember he was renamed"Edom."

Tana:

Oh, okay.

Don:

They said and that's why he was called Edom,

Tana:

oh, Edom right. Okay, okay, okay. I just didn't remember that.

Don:

So think about this. This is also another example. So we have, uh, Abraham and Sarah, who God makes a promise to them and they manipulate the situation in order to try and make it come to fruition

Tana:

mm-hmm.

Don:

And there's consequences for that. Hagar, right? Ishmael?

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Don:

The, there becomes consequences that were not necessarily, in fact, I'd argue were not intended.

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Don:

right?

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Don:

And I would say this, we could also read this, and I don't think we do this, we look at the Abraham and Sarah thing because it's very clear.

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Don:

oops.

Tana:

Right. Yeah.

Don:

I think you could also make the case Oops here.

Tana:

Hmm. Right.

Don:

That this could have been done in a much healthier way.

Sarah:

Yeah. This could have been fleshed out, so to speak, in a manner that is way more, uh, kind to Isaac, that is way more, um, For everyone involved. Instead of it being, you know, at some level, Rebekah, and probably Jacob imagined that Isaac would not do this unless he was manipulated.

Tana:

Hmm.

Don:

Does that make sense? So I think that we can actually read this and critique the process that was done and say there was a better way, just like there was a better way with Abraham and Sarah.

Tana:

Yeah.

Sarah:

Yeah. And like the repercussions of that is like Jacob carrying the fear basically his entire time he's with Laban.

Don:

Mm-hmm.

Sarah:

of eventually having to face his past and face Esau and what's gonna happen because when he leaves Esau, basically Esau wants to kill him.

Don:

Yep.

Sarah:

And then before they're finally re reunited, he doesn't know what to expect.

Tana:

Yeah.

Sarah:

So,

Don:

and even if we, if we agree that it's plausible that the three things that Jacob requests from God, um, at the ladder, uh, that, that also the relationship

Sarah:

Yeah.

Don:

Would've been healthier, uh, that there wouldn't have been a shattered relationship that seemingly Jacob belongs to have reconciled.

Tana:

Hmm. So, sorry, I'm thinking about a lot of different things with this. So earlier you had mentioned about like the different wrestling that happens all throughout this story.

Don:

Yeah.

Tana:

And then, um, kind of bookended with Jacob wrestling with God.

Don:

Mm-hmm.

Tana:

Um, and the thing I find interesting about that part of the story, Is, you know, um, so you know, is the story is, you know, Jacob is, is wrestling with a man. And then when the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man, then the man said, let me go for his daybreak. Um, but Jacob replied,"I will not let you go unless you bless me." And then of course we're, you know, it's, it's revealed that it's the man is God. Um, and I just think that's really interesting because he is also kind of wrangling a blessing out of someone

Don:

mm-hmm.

Tana:

like he did with Isaac.

Don:

Mm-hmm. great connection.

Tana:

I just, and, and well, given what you said too about how Jacob didn't escape all of this sca. that just, um, I don't know. I'm making connections here and I'm thinking about how trauma works and you know, all this stuff. And I'm just thinking Jacob's like going through life like, well, if I want something, I gotta take it. I gotta, you know. Anyway, sorry. That's just, something that was kind of going through my mind.

Don:

Is there a question in there?

Tana:

No, I, I can't think of a question. It was just more so of like, I found that connection to be, to be interesting and, um, I guess, I guess what I find interesting about it too, so when Jacob gets the blessing in this part, um, the blessing is"your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome," and Jacob being Israel, and then knowing the whole story of Israel, it just all feels like so much foreshadowing of like, you know, Israel just struggles and struggles and struggles and wrestles and,

Don:

and always overcomes.

Tana:

And always overcomes. And so I just, I just never really put all that together.

Don:

Well, you put it together very correctly.

Tana:

That's, um, I didn't do it before. Gold Star. Um, and I just, I don't know, I just found that to be a really interesting. um, thought like, because we know that Israel struggled and. To know like the father of Israel or like who is Israel? I don't know. Anyway, I'm gonna stop talking.

Don:

I feel like you keep cutting yourself off as you're about to say some important things, because you, you're lacking confidence that what you're saying has any validity. And I'll tell you that what you're saying is right and the processing that you're doing is the processing we should all do while we're reading the. Is to play around with some ideas that you're not sure if they connect or not, but to have the freedom to suggest them and the freedom to think about them in order to make some profound connections for yourself. So what you are doing is exactly how we should engage the text and start to see the imagery sliding throughout. Right? For us, we're, we're often trained, not because necessarily intentionally, but just because of the culture in which we're growing up, that this is, if this is historical, stuff that we're learning.

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Don:

and this is exactly how it happened, that it might not then have anything to do with later on because it's just a historical fact and therefore maybe a coincidence.

Tana:

Right.

Don:

Whereas if you read this in the way that Israel sitting around a campfire for centuries trying to understand what the plight is of their people, how they keep going into being captured and oppressed, and then finding freedom and then captured and oppressed, and finding freedom and constantly in conflict that the story probably evolved about Israel, the anthropomorphic version of Israel that was always in a wrestling match. That was always fighting for survival, was always fighting to do what God had in mind and in doing so suffered and experienced conflict.

Tana:

Yeah.

Don:

So everything you're saying is, is very good.

Tana:

Well, thank you. I don't, I, I didn't, I can't think of anything I was gonna say next. That was, yeah, I was, it was more so I don't have anything else to say. And so I'm, I don't know how to land this plane, so I'm just gonna stop talking. But, um,

Sarah:

that's okay.

Tana:

But the, What you were just saying and everything, um, reminds me of another thing I've just been thinking about a lot lately, which is, um, how much more powerful I think it is to study the Bible in community. Because I read in preparation for this, I read this story yesterday. But I didn't like put together the whole like wrestling thing until after we started talking today, and then I was like, oh wait, you know, Jacob always had to struggle for this and so. I don't know. I just think there's, um, a beauty in that that we don't always emphasize. It's almost like, I mean, I know there's Bible studies and they have group bible studies, but I don't know.

Don:

Unfortunately for most of us, the Bible studies we've experienced throughout the years in churches, typically just a sermon with everyone's Bible open.

Tana:

Yeah.

Don:

Or a fill in the blank. And it's really not asking for creative input from people. Yeah, yeah. There's someone leading it. They know what they want to teach. They know what the goal or the outcome is, and you're just asking people to agree with your assessment at least. And maybe that's just me projecting on my experiences in Bible study, but for the most part, I wasn't ever really involved in Bible studies until you know, I had the privilege of starting some

Tana:

mm-hmm.

Don:

that people actually were invited to contribute their ideas and actually change the direction of the discussion.

Tana:

Yeah. I think that's the key, because knowing, like thinking back to all the Bible studies I went to growing up, it was very much that it was just like additional preaching,

Don:

Yes.

Tana:

You know?

Sarah:

Yeah.

Tana:

And, and sometimes it wouldn't be necessarily the pastor or the priest, you know? Doing it, it would be some designated teacher, but it was still like a, you're coming as an empty vessel to be filled with that knowledge rather than we are gonna explore this text in community together. So yeah, and I just, I don't know for, to me, it to me, for some reason today was just sort of driving that home to me

Sarah:

Or the Bible studies, like, were you guys ever like, I feel like there was like a whole little trend where, um, instead of actually studying other things during the week, it was, we get together to discuss the sermon.

Don:

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sarah:

So like, instead of like going to the Bible on your own, let's like discuss the sermon is the point of the group. Interesting. So then you're like still like that one, you're, you're removed from encountering the text on your own. Cuz now you're just talking about like what the teacher said,

Tana:

the interpretation.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Tana:

That was given to you.

Don:

I remember one time I showed up at a bible. And I got there. It was the first time I ever attended it and everyone pulled out, I think it was a Beth Moore book, which I don't have anything necessarily against Beth Moore, but like, I was like, wait, I thought this is a Bible study.

Tana:

Mm, yeah.

Don:

And it's like, well we're, we're reading this book by Beth Moore together and she talks about the Bible in it.

Tana:

Yeah. You know, that is very interesting cuz now that I'm thinking about, every Women's Bible study or a women's study group

Don:

with some air quotes going on here for those that are listening.

Tana:

Yes. Lots of air quotes. Um, uh, it was never actually just straight up studying the Bible. It was always through like Beth Moore or Joyce Meyer or.

Sarah:

Yes.

Tana:

Something else.

Don:

Well, I can tell you, and I know we're a little off topic, but I think it's important, uh, while, while we're here

Tana:

mm-hmm.

Don:

is that the way that I have attempted to craft, the way we do Bible studies and stuff with our community, and we haven't always been successful. I don't wanna make it sound like we've nailed it every time, right? But where it's, it is communal contribution. People are reading the text. We have the Bibles open in front of us, we're going through them. We're suggesting ideas. We're we're having fun talking about the text, or at least I am the number of pastors, colleagues of mine who are like,"aren't you ever worried about what someone would say that doesn't have training?"

Tana:

Mm.

Don:

And I'm like, no. Like, I mean, I say things that are wrong and have to go back and, and fix it.

Tana:

Yeah.

Don:

Um, but there is a fear that as much as we've, you know, moved things from the Latin mass to English, so that way people could understand and we moved things from stained glass windows to printed bibles so that way people could access it. There's still a mindset in the church

Tana:

mm.

Don:

that the authority remains in the pulpit.

Tana:

Yeah.

Don:

And I don't disagree in the sense that I might have more knowledge, more time studying, more experience, more expertise in the topic. However, that does not preclude then others from having things of value to bring to the table.

Tana:

Right.

Don:

And always a collective wisdom is better than individual wisdom, so...

Tana:

yeah. Agreed. Yeah. So, uh, we're um, getting close on time here. Are there any final thoughts we wanna share on Jacob Jacob's story, Esau

Sarah:

I can't think of anything.

Don:

I, I just add, you know, again, building a little bit on the Rebekah story, we see a lot of strength in this,

Tana:

mm-hmm.

Don:

in this section.

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Don:

we talked about how powerful Rebekah was and how Jacob seems to take after Rebekah. So, you know, Jacob, at one point we, we would learn if we continued reading takes off the cover of the well. It would've taken all the shepherds together to do.

Tana:

Mm.

Don:

Uh, that he takes the a thing that he was using as a pillow and sets it up as a pillar.

Tana:

Oh, right. Yeah.

Don:

Um, and he is able, in this story to hold God hostage. with his own strength

Tana:

mm-hmm.

Don:

to get a blessing.

Tana:

Yeah.

Don:

There is something supernaturally powerful that is at least being told in this story of Jacob and he seems to get it from mom, uh, not from weak eyed dad So

Sarah:

yeah, I feel like there is a lot more here, so,

Don:

oh my gosh.

Sarah:

I wanna, you know, part two,

Don:

yeah.

Sarah:

Pick up from here and kinda spend a little bit more time with the ladder, and then moving forward.

Don:

Yes.

Tana:

Yeah. Yeah. So we'll have to do that. Um, at some point. Um, yeah.

Don:

I'd encourage any of our viewers or listeners. Please. If you have questions about Jacob, uh, and Jacob's story or thoughts or creative ways of understanding it, send it to us. We'll include it in our, in our conversation in part two, and we'll do our best

Tana:

yeah.

Don:

To answer and address those questions. And I always want that to be the case. I, I, yeah, it's, it's hard to create listener viewer participation because it feels like a one minute-

Tana:

in a podcast.

Don:

but I really want to include the ideas of those listening because if the three of us sitting around the table can get, can discuss at this passage and find new connections and new ideas.

Tana:

Mm-hmm.

Don:

how much more will we have when people around the world,

Tana:

right

Don:

are sending in thoughts from very different lenses and very different ideas and traditions, and how good would it be to have some of those conversations?

Tana:

Yeah, I think that would be, that would be great. And, um, an easy way to do that is to, you know, find us on, on social. You can message us there. You can, um, email us at info@ancientjesusfuturefaith.com. These podcast episodes are also posted on YouTube. You can comment on the YouTube video. Um, and I, I realized just now saying that somebody who's watching this on YouTube will be like, well, duh. Yeah, I know. It's... Anyway, for those listening on a podcast episode, it's also posted on YouTube. So, uh, anyway, thank you so much for joining us today and we will, um, see you next time. Bye!

Sarah:

Bye.

Don:

Bye.