Did Jesus really abolish the law? What does it mean that he "fulfilled" it? And what does that mean for us? Tana and Don the example of Jesus and what it means to keep an active faith.
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There's a profound beauty that exists in the text like nothing else I've ever encountered. It's probably the only reason I've maintained my faith for as long as I have, is that I have found such a deep beauty in this timeless storytelling of a God who gives all the power to the people to bring about goodness, hope, and justice,
Tana:Hello and welcome back to Ancient Jesus Future Faith. This is the start of season three. Uh, we're back after a little bit of a break. For today, it is just Don and Tana. I'm gonna refer to myself in the third person. Oh,
Don:we're in season three, so now all of a sudden we can start, uh, referring to ourselves. Yeah,
Tana:I was gonna say Tana.
Don:Thanks. Well, Don's really happy to be here.
Tana:All I can think of is Brooklyn 99. When Terry, like Terry always says, you know, Terry loves yogurt, you know, he talks about himself in the third person. But anyway. That's neither here nor there. And, uh, great start to season
Don:three. Pretty sure everyone is completely enraptured with the discussion already.
Tana:Today we're gonna be talking about Brooklyn 99 and other things written by Michael Schur um,
Don:no, the Bible that we're gonna talk about was not written, not written by Michael
Tana:Schur okay, so for real, today we are going to talk about, um, Matthew. Five, 17 through 20. And this is the part where we talk about fulfilling the law or abolishing the law. This idea that Jesus fulfilled the law. Um, and so I'm gonna read that first and then we're gonna talk a little bit about what we have thought. It has meant in the past. And then we're gonna dive in and kind of break it down. So, um, I am reading from the Jewish annotated New Testament, which is, oh, it's based on the new revised standard version. It,
Don:it actually is the new revised standard version. Okay. The only thing that is different is that, It has annotations, it's annotated by Jewish scholars and it's, I highly recommend it if you're looking for a New Testament and what you've heard on our podcast interests you or intrigues you. The beauty of this New Testament is that it's Jewish scholars. It's not Messianic scholars. Mm-hmm. It's not Christians who find Judaism interesting scholars. It is Jewish scholars who are not Christian, uh, giving input and annotations. Connected to other sacred texts within Judaism, as well as thoughts from history. So, fantastic. Yeah. Highly recommended.
Tana:I, I really enjoy it. It's, um, the annotations are, are very, very
Don:good, but as of right now, we're just reading the N R
Tana:S V. That is correct. All right. I'm not gonna read all the annotations. All right, so, uh, Matthew five 17 through 20. Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish, but to fulfill. For truly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. So, um, Don, I wanted to start off with kind of talking about how we typically tend to read this. Yeah.
Don:That's a, that's a loaded passage. Yeah. In a lot of churches.
Tana:Yeah. Did you wanna talk or do you want me to Go ahead. Okay. So for me, growing up, it's, it's interesting. It's interesting because it's, it starts off saying, do not think that I have come to abolish the law. But that's pretty much exactly what I was taught growing up. The, yeah. That Jesus fulfilled the law. Um, Jesus basically, that Jesus made Torah and almost all of the Old Testament, except for like 10 Commandments, um, he made, made, made it all kind of null and void.
Don:Yeah, that's. I think a lot of pastors who have, who have taught on this, I think a lot of people who have read scholarship or have read on this passage, they would probably nuance it and say that Jesus didn't abolish it, he just made it no longer necessary or a prerequisite for salvation. Mm-hmm. Right. Um, although I would say that's how they would nuance it, but they would behave more so as the abolished. Right. That him, oh, that's Old Testament. And that's when God was mean and harsh and angry and Jesus came along and, and now God is kind and compassionate, merciful so. It still carries that same, the weight of abolishing as in it was bad and now we have something better. But I think if you put them on the spot, they would attempt to nuance it to say no. Jesus just, uh, handled the, uh, attributes of the Torah, the attributes of the Hebrew Bible in such a way that, um, they no longer need. Us to follow those things and then we would stand around and argue that we still need the 10 commandments in our classrooms and courthouses, even though, yeah. Oops. Uh, we believe it was, uh, necessary for fulfillment.
Tana:Yeah, that's actually something I wanted to ask about. I didn't know if you knew kind of how this historically happened. Um, But it had, it always was interesting to me. So I grew up believing like there were these 10 commandments and that it was this kind of standalone thing, um, in, in the Bible, right? Yeah.
Don:And you grew up Catholic, so your 10 commandments are actually different than the Jewish. Oh yeah. That's right. And it's not that it's the same passage, it's just that you number them differently. Like, I don't believe Catholicism takes, uh, Uh, that, that God is one as the first commandment. I think that's the difference. I don't know. You know
Tana:what? I've, I've so long that I don't remember. Like, remember it was, you're bad Catholic. I am. Um, I, I remember that it was different cuz I remember when I moved from Catholicism to Protestantism, I guess, um, it, you know, it was different, but I don't remember why. But, um, in all, in all honesty, I don't remember. I don't recall, I could be wrong, but I don't recall us spending very much time in Exodus. We did a little bit of the creation stuff in Genesis, um, and if
Don:you did do Exodus it was probably as a monolith like. The Red Sea, the
Tana:wandering, yes, yes. It was that stuff. It was that story. High level Sunday school stuff. Right. But I don't think I even knew that there were, was it 613?
Don:Yes. I mean, that's what Maimonides in, uh, medieval times, I believe it was. Uh, numbered them. Numbered them. Okay. So prior to Maimonides, there wasn't a. There wasn't like a list of the number of commandments. Mm-hmm. And then, uh, you know, maybe he liked counting. He had an abacus that he wanted to get more use out of, so he decided to count and number them.
Tana:Sure. But they're all there in a ex, like there's a bunch of rules, you know,
Don:throughout, throughout the tour, throughout Exodus. Yes. There are, there's hundreds Yeah. Of commands. And
Tana:I, I just, I don't think I was even aware of that for, I don't, I don't even know how long. Um, definitely not until well into adulthood. And so I guess my question is, uh, why those 10? Like why, why say pretty much like, oh, we don't need to do all this stuff because of Jesus, except for these 10, you have to follow these 10.
Don:The, the 10 Commandments are, are weird and they escape some of the anti Judaism or anti-Semitism at worst. Of modern Christendom, and I think it's because they are so iconic. Like it's like the iconicness of that story of Mount Sinai of, you know, Moses coming down with 11 commandments, breaking one, and then they're only being 10. Oh, wait, no, that was a Mel Brooks
Tana:film. No, he had 15. Oh 15. Cause there 15 five per tablet. Oh my bad. And then he dropped a tablet. See, but when I'm trying
Don:to, trying to do funny pop culture, I fail. So, but I think it's so iconic. The Exodus story is whether or not we like it, um, which we love it on A J F F, but whether or not we like it, the, the story of Moses is so, Important within Christendom, right? It's ge Moses becomes a, uh, precursor or a hint at Jesus. And right now I don't hold that view, right? I don't hold the view that everything that happened in the Old Testament was in order to point us to Jesus. I, I kind of view it the opposite direction, that Jesus is a culmination, or Jesus is the continuation of all these great stories, and because his life matches those other stories in significant or interesting ways, or even just literary ways, then we can have confidence that this is, again, a continuation and a movement of God. Mm-hmm. And so, Prophecies that many people point to fulfillment of laws that many people point to. All of those things are meant to give us confidence that Jesus is indeed the continuation of this story of Israel. And so therefore, you and I as listeners to the story, you and I as partakers of these tales, Um, can have confidence that, oh, this is a continuation. The irony is many of us have used this verse or these verses mm-hmm. As kind of a, uh, reboot of the, um, series. What, what is it called? Reboot a, when you reboot a, like, spider-Man has had many reboots, Batman has had many reboots. What's that called? I
Tana:thought they just called that a reboot.
Don:No, they call it, there's another term that's used there. Franchise, rebooting the franchise. Oh, right. I see what you're saying. And so Jesus is kind of rebooting the franchise of Yahweh, and that's how it's, that's how it's treated, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That, yeah, those things existed beforehand. Mm-hmm. But now we've kind of figured out the formula a little bit better. Right. And we know what the audience really wants to hear. Right? And so we need this character to give a nod. To the previous things, but then separate. And that's a terrible way to actually approach or think about Jesus. In fact, it has led to many travesties to Judaism or Jews just in general from at the hands of Christians. Mm-hmm. But in addition, it's also robs us of a lot of really great, uh, previously told, previously understood, previously believed stories. And I think the 10 Commandments are one of those pieces that we hold onto as the nod, right? Mm-hmm. That we, we're not gonna get rid of that one. We're not gonna get rid of the garden, right? We're not gonna get rid of the, the 10 Commandments. We're not gonna get rid of, uh, David and Goliath. Mm-hmm. Chronicles we don't really need Chronicles, you know, Amos, eh, whatever. Right. Right. And. And then we're gonna hold on to the things, also the prior things that we can emphasize as a hint at the person that Jesus is. So I think that's, that's why we don't hear the 10 Commandments, um, beyond, uh, political debates and arguments to keep them in our classrooms or in our courthouses. Mm-hmm. And the great irony is, We actually, I mean, at best we only want nine of them. Right. No one wants Sabbath. Right. Um, and the i the idea that we would keep Sabbath Friday at sunset to Saturday at sunset, holy is right. Ridiculous to capitalism. Right. Right. It would bring capitalism to its knees in some ways. Yeah. So, yeah. So, yeah, I think that's why you, you really haven't heard it talked about. Hmm.
Tana:Yeah. Yeah, and I think that part of what you said kind of goes to, um, this thought that if, if, if Jesus had really abolished the law, so to speak, um, then he wouldn't have followed any of the, um, continued to follow it while he was doing his ministry.
Don:Yeah, I think. To that point, I believe people would say that it wasn't completely fulfilled till the cross. Mm. Right. Mm-hmm. That, that becomes the last sacrifice. I've heard that often, right. That Jesus's death on the cross is the sacrifice to end sacrifices. Mm-hmm. And again, that's a complicated concept. Because Paul tends to allude to some of these things. And what we miss is Paul is often speaking metaphorically. And it's interesting, again, depending on the passage, people are happy for something to be read metaphorically, right. And then are quick to say, no, this is literal here. Right, right. And metaphorical here, Jesus is the Passover lamb. Well that's literal. No it's not. Jesus did not, uh, you know. Have Woo. Um, like Jesus was not literally a lamb. Uh, and so Jesus was not the, the Seder, uh, sacrifice. God says in the prophets, I abor human sacrifice. Mm-hmm. Like basically says that's the worst thing that one can do as human sacrifice. Mm-hmm. But I think there is something powerful when Paul thinks of this, metaphorically, that here at the entrance of the Passover, uh, the time of the, this holiday. Jesus is put to death and in some way as the Savior is meant to stave off the death of the Israelites. I think that's a beautiful metaphor. Mm-hmm. I think that that's powerful, but I don't think Paul believed that Jesus, that no one else had to give a Passover lamb that Passover and that no other Passovers did Paul give. Or have a, a Passover lamb. Of course he did. Right. So it's, it's a, it's kind of an interesting thing, uh, that, that exists. So I, we're getting a little bit off track, but I, I think we just need to recognize metaphor versus literal and not pick and choose when it's, uh, beneficial to us. Yeah.
Tana:I think that's actually one of the largest challenges of reading and understanding the Bible, um, is because I think we tend to pick and choose metaphors for the things that affect us and literal for the things that we can judge other people about. And I,
Don:and I wanna be clearer, progressive Christians do this almost, if not the same amount, maybe even more than conservative Christians do. Like we, we'd like to avoid passages that talk about the slaughtering of women and children, definitely we like to say, oh, that's a metaphor, when we're not using other things in those areas as metaphor. And really at the end of the day, what we need as members of the faithful is just to be, have a consistent hermeneutic, right? And we need to recognize genre. We need to recognize author, author intent. All of those things are important. Context history. Exactly. And I know that part of, one of the things that, that dissuade people mm-hmm. About the Bible is that it's, it feels archaic and it's complicated. And the truth is, it is both those things. But if we take the time, To investigate. We take the time to explore it. There's a profound beauty that exists in the text like nothing else I've ever encountered. It's probably the only reason I've maintained my faith for as long as I have, is that I have found such a deep beauty in this timeless storytelling of a God who gives all the power to the people. To bring about goodness, hope, and justice, whereas the other gods of the time, the people had to convince those gods to do those things. Hmm. And what made Israel's story so different is that Israel's God said, you bring about those things. Hmm. You care for your neighbor. You make sure the hungrier fed you. Make sure that the widows are cared for. You. Make sure justice is served. You. Make sure that the Poor's voice are heard just as much as the affluent, you overthrow empire. And do not bend a knee to the powerful. And I'll walk with you. And it's, to me, it's amazing. So, All of that. Let's circle back to the topic at hand. Yes. So there was a saying within Judaism mm-hmm. That we see much more prominent in rabbinic Judaism, which takes place about a hundred years at Rabbinic Judaism basically kind of becomes a thing around 70 is when we start to see it. Being formed and the reason for it. Do you know what the reason is? That Rabbinic Judaism started to be formed? The temple is destroyed. And so up until this moment, oh, the temple was the hub of all things, and that was the way that Israel, um, sat at table. With God. Mm-hmm. And therefore had communion with God was over these sacrifices that were given as food offerings. Mm-hmm. And a lot of the offerings the people would eat as well as food being offered to God. And so it was sharing a table with God, really profound imagery. It was, God was your neighbor physically. You could see God's house out your window. Right. Like, and you could go over and visit. Multiple times a day. Uh, sometimes God asked you to bring some flour with you to, so some cakes could be made and then you all enjoyed them together, and I'm being a little bit, you know, nonchalant there, but that, that really kind of was the essence, right? We've talked about during, uh, Hanukkah that the lighting of the menorah that took place during Hanukkah was so important because it showed that God was home. Right. When the menorah was out, it was kind of like, uh, our front door or our, our, our porch light. You know, if the porch light's off at Halloween when kids are coming around trick or tree and the porch light off means buzz off kids, no one's home. Mm-hmm. Or no one's interested in handing you candy. If the porch light's on, it's like we're home and we're accepting visitors. Right, right. And so I thought the porch
Tana:light being off meant, please go ahead and toilet paper my house. You grew up in a different neighborhood.
Don:So, so this, this moment when the temple was destroyed, the, the, the menorah is extinguished. Now we often think of a menorah as just like the little thing that sits in our window. Sure. But the menorah at the temple was huge. It was the light of the world. Right? Because the temple was on the mount. Mm-hmm. And when that was lit, it was, I think it was like 60 feet high. I forget what the measurements are. True. And then it had these, these torches at the top, and it was the light of the world. You could see it from Wow. Everywhere. And so think about that when, you know, John refers to Jesus as the light of the world. Light of the world. Yeah. Um, God's presence here. And so when that was extinguished, when it was destroyed, um, By the, um, was it the Hasian that destroyed it at that point? But when, uh, you know, the Maccabees were rebuilding and reclaimed the temple, right. Yeah. They didn't have enough oil. Right. But they decided that it was more important even if the, the torches went out to show God's still here.
Tana:Well, and that you talking about the scale of the Menorah mm-hmm. Makes that story. Even that much more impressive cuz can you imagine the amount of oil? Oh, 100%. It wasn't like this
Don:little No, no. I think we think of like, you know, like a little lantern, right? There wasn't enough oil to keep that lid. Right. You know, we're talking like vats of oil. Right. And that there was only enough for a day. Right. And they decided to light it anyhow. And then the miracle of Hanukkah is that it stayed lit until the oils were able to be reproduced. Um, Bezo was a very specific way to make the oils for the menorah. So I don't even know why it went down that path, but boy, it was fun. Can, can
Tana:I comment on something on that? Please, please. Uh, the, I, I don't know why I never realized how large that was. The, that menorah and for me, that is so much more, that's so much more beautiful. It's such vivid, vivid imagery, uh, for Jesus being the light of the world like. Every time I've ever heard that in the past, it just felt very like, um, Abstract. Mm-hmm. Like, oh, Jesus is the light of the world. Oh, sure. You know, oh, he's the light. You know, like, I don't know. There was like nothing physical to attach it to. Right. And you talking about that menorah being the light of the world and like how gigantic it was and like, just how everybody would see it. Like, to me that makes that, that, um, statement so much more powerful because, I have like an image to attach it to. Yeah. And it's also meaningful because it would've had a very tactile meaning to the Jewish people.
Don:Absolutely. And it should to us today. Right? Because there was something powerful that when imagine this and, and we might have to do a part two that actually deals with the subject that we are supposed to do. But, but imagine this, you are. You are oppressed by Rome. Rome is occupying you. Mm-hmm. Yet, any day that you looked up, you saw that God was still home. Oh dang. Right. You saw that God was still there and I don't, that doesn't answer a lot of really heavy and difficult philosophical questions of why is God just sitting there doing nothing? Sure. Uh, but there was hope, right? Yeah. This, this picture of hope. And then when, when Jesus comes around, John says, Jesus is a light of the world. He is also the hope. Yeah. And we can put our hope in that just in the same way. And many people believe John wrote the book of John was written after the destruction of the temple. So even more important Oh yeah. To say that Jesus was the light of the world. Right. And this becomes really powerful and then, To me, this, this hearkens back to the discussion we had about mobile sanctuaries that we love to keep bringing up. Mm-hmm. Is Jesus says, you are the light. Mm-hmm. Right. And we've changed that. If we, we made a nuance there in a lot of Christian circles where it says, let light shine through you. No, that's not what the Bible says. Mm-hmm. The Bible says you are the light. Mm. Not, not that you are some kind of light a vessel. Yeah. Not that you're a lantern that Yeah. And Jesus' light is shining through you, but that you become the light. And so we become the hope in a darkened world. We become the hope in a place that feels hopeless. We, uh, as the faithful are all these flickers of light, uh, in oppression. I just believe that this would be profound if this is how we viewed our job. Hmm. Right. Earlier I had mentioned that the uniqueness of Yahweh, the uniqueness of the Hebrew people, the uniqueness that becomes Judaism is that the God that they worshiped, empowered the people to bring about the hope and justice. Yeah. And so we see that again with Jesus. And the sad part to me is that for many of my experiences in the church, We handed that back to God. Yeah. And said, that's too difficult. Yeah. That's too much for me to carry. So God, can you take care of the poor? Right. God, can you take care of the sick God? Would you handle justice? Hmm. Because this is, this is a little much for me. Yeah.
Tana:Well, and to me, that really goes back to Jesus fulfilling the law, like Jesus is the embodiment. Of it. Um, and I think we tend to like look at the law or the commandments as like rules you have to follow. And they may be even considered like oppressive, but I don't think that's how a lot of it was meant to be. It was meant to create a beautiful way of living.
Don:Yes. And in fact, the reason Jesus' life is so profound. Is because he followed the commands of God perfectly. Mm-hmm. According to tradition. Mm-hmm. I, I find it astounding that a person, an individual Jesus, and I'm not saying anything about Jesus' divinity in calling, referring to Jesus as a person. Mm-hmm. But Jesus had a reputation of living out Torah perfectly. Mm-hmm. And we're talking about him 2000 years later. Mm-hmm. In fact, his reputation has only grown since then. Right. Um, now his reputation of his followers have diminished over time, but Jesus' reputation has only grown. The irony is that if you want to emulate, if I wanted to emulate LeBron James, I'm a huge calves fan, born in Cleveland. LeBron James. I, I love LeBron James, but that man's regimen every day to perform at the level that he does still at in his late thirties, almost 40 year old body and is still one of the better players in the N B A. I would look at him and not go, I could, I should probably only have to do about a third of what he does to be that good.
Tana:Yeah.
Don:And it's kind of what we've done. Gosh. It, it's kind of what we've done with Jesus. Yeah. Right. Jesus. Jesus fulfilled the law, which means that he upheld it and everything he does brings fullness to it. Mm-hmm. Right. So maybe that's the better place to start. And I started to allude to it. There was a tradition that became more popular after the temple was destroyed. That's how I got segued. And uh, it was. A rabbi might be confronted mm-hmm. Uh, in early rabbinic Judaism, probably through late, maybe even still to this day. Okay. A rabbi might be confronted by an interpretation they have of Torah or Talmud, or any of the writings. Okay. And the response of the rabbi or the, the critique of the rabbi would be you're abolishing the law. Oh, okay. Which means that. You're taking the Torah and you're twisting it, you're taking the Torah, and uh, you are saying it's not significant or it's not important. Basically, it is exactly how we would think of abolishing. Mm-hmm. Right. So I would say Christianity has abolished the Sabbath law. Hmm. Right. We have taken the concept to Sabbath. Yeah. And said, Right. Right. I think we could point to a lot of laws in Torah, but Sure. Sabbath is one I think that not many people are gonna debate against me on. Right, right. Yeah. That the idea of not working the idea, so even if you've converted the Sabbath to Sunday mm-hmm. Uh, pun intended there, um, even if you converted the Sabbath to Sunday, the idea of still not working. Not forcing anyone else to work. Mm-hmm. Not, uh, participating in commerce. Mm-hmm. All of those things. Modern Christendom still is like, eh, right. Not necessary. Right. That would be abolishing the law. Mm-hmm. Fulfilling the law. Mm-hmm. Would be, uh, recognizing that a law is stated in a certain way and making it either more difficult to follow. Mm-hmm. Um, but by more difficult saying, not saying, and therefore not this, we talked about it a few episodes ago. I know it's been a little while because of our break, but we talked about the idea of when Jesus says you've heard it said, uh, do not murder. Right. I see. I tell you. Yeah. Do not even hate someone. Mm-hmm. Right. Because Jesus is, and Jesus would argue that is fulfilling the law. Mm-hmm. Not abolishing the law, because if we remove hate from our heart, then we're not gonna murder someone. Right. And so he would argue because someone might say, well then you're abolishing the law by saying it's about hatred. And he'd say, no, I'm fulfilling the law. Because if you don't hate someone, you're not gonna murder someone. Right. Yeah. So that's the significant difference between abolishing versus fulfilling. And so Jesus here is answering a critique about whether or not he is telling people to no longer follow Torah. Is he telling people to no longer, uh, hold the commands of God in the high esteem that they had been? And Jesus' response is, I did not come. To abolish the law. Mm-hmm. I came to fulfill it. Mm-hmm. This is significant because with that statement and what we know it has had become to mean, and was part of regular conversation amongst the sages mm-hmm. Was that Jesus was actually saying that he believed that we were to continue mm-hmm. Following Torah. Mm-hmm. He wasn't getting rid of it, he just fulfilled it. And so now let's take a look at. When we hear fulfilled, what we have chosen to hear that as is, and therefore it's complete. Right? It's, we don't need to do it. He completed the law, right? Like it was a test and God was just waiting for someone to get a hundred percent on, and then God was like, all right, we're good. Right? Um, but we often do things. We, let's see. Can you think of an example of something where you have to jump through a bunch of hoops in order to be. Uh, eligible for something,
Tana:um, grad school.
Don:Okay. So, so tell me some of the hoops you have to jump through.
Tana:Uh, you have to, well, uh, you'd have to have a bachelor's degree. Okay. To go get into grad school. Uh, you'd have to take the gre. Okay. Um, if you, it was a more specialized, like maybe if it was like law school, you have to take the LSAT or whatever. Um, you have to apply, you have to write an essay.
Don:Um, so you did grad school? Yeah. And then you did your PhD. Is that still considered grad school? That's still grad, considered grad school. Oh, to me they're, they're just, they're all, they stack. So you did grad school? Yeah. Did you fulfill the requirements? I got my degree,
Tana:so I guess so.
Don:So thankfully I now could just go get my graduate degree. Because you fulfilled the requirements. Yeah. I'm just gonna
Tana:start handing'em out, just tossing'em out to everybody.
Don:So, but that's, that is, that's the significant difference, right? Right. Is that we read Jesus fulfilled the law and therefore we don't have to be, as he handled it, you go ahead. Whereas for you mm-hmm. You fulfilled the requirements to go to grad school. But that doesn't have any impact on anyone else. I mean, it does have impact because like to use things that maybe are still important but not, maybe aren't as significant as in the past. You are a woman. Mm-hmm. Who is able to fulfill those things. Mm-hmm. And get an advanced degree and even a PhD, and that's important. Mm-hmm. But, It doesn't alleviate, it might add to the story, it might add to the history that you fulfilled those things, but it doesn't change it for the next person in, in major fundamental
Tana:ways, you know? So this is making me think about something I looked up last night. Um, I didn't quite see a connection before, but now I do. So you're, what you're basically saying is that, There's still, it's still an active process. There's still action you have to take. Right. So, um, you know how much I love the apostolic polyglot. Yes. Um, do you wanna explain to folks what that is? I was actually going to ask you to explain. Sure. Can you just explain quickly?
Don:So the apostolic polyglot is a, is a Bible and you can find it other ways that are not. This particular version, we just happen to be very fond of this version. So it's an interlinear bible that has both the English and the Greek, uh, in the same line. So you can see how the Bible has been translated. Makes it a little bumpy at times, but it allows you to see how it's translated in this particular version. It, uh, it allows you to also read the Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, so it has the entire Septuagint and the entire New Testament, all with English and Greek above and below, and then it has one of the best. Uh, lexicons mm-hmm. In the back mm-hmm. That really help you to connect verses, passages and concepts. This whole package is just top notch. Mm-hmm. And I, I think I have probably given away a couple dozen of them. Mm-hmm. And I, I don't know, I should probably, uh, have some part ownership in this. Yeah. Really printing press. Uh, just kidding. But the apostolic polyglot. Phenomenal. Yeah, so go ahead.
Tana:Yeah, so I, I love this thing, uh, because, so what you can do with all of those wonderful tools wrapped into one is you can go into the Bible verse you're reading, and if there's a word that has been transla, you know, the English translation, the word you're going, I wonder what that word actually means, because translation is an active interpretation and so, You know, it's important to kind of get at the root of these things. So I decided to look up what the word"fulfilled" meant. Right? Yeah. So in this, in the Glide, it has like a little number assigned, and then in the back you can look up the number and it has kind of like, oh, this word is, it can mean like kind of these couple of things. And then it gives you every instance in which it appears,
Don:including the Septuagint.
Tana:Yeah And, um, and you've said something before Don, about the significance of the first time. Right.
Don:So there's a tradition in, at least within Rabbinic Judaism, I don't know if there's a different rabbinic, but within Rabbinic Judaism, uh, there's a tradition that if you want to understand how to read a word, you go to the first time it was used. And that sets the definition for the entire Bible. I, I have a feeling that's not actually literally true. Mm-hmm. But it, it has led to profound uh, understanding. Yeah.
Tana:So I went back, I, I looked, I looked up fulfilled, and uh, the first instance is, it appears in, is Genesis 1 22 when God tells the creatures to fill the water in the sea. Yes. And I was totally
Don:gonna guess that first I, I was sitting here, so hoping you were gonna ask me because it came up in our Luke study that we were a per, a group of us were doing. Oh. And it came up in the Luke study, that same,
Tana:so Right, because there's, uh, the birth story, there's also about Jesus fulfilling and all that stuff. Yeah. So, um, yeah, so the, I love, and, and at first when I looked that up last night, I was like, Um hmm. How does this relate? But God tells the creatures to fill the water in the sea and so, and not then stop. Well, not only that, but it doesn't say like God filled the sea with the creatures. Right. He told the creatures to fill the sea. Yes. And so that's kind of how I'm then envisioning this connection to fulfilling the law. It's an active process. It's not something God did. Or you know, Jesus did, and then you just enjoy the fruits of it. It's like it's, it's active. You do it right.
Don:Yeah. And it's not ending. Right. It continues on, the sea is still being filled. Yes. Probably at a slower pace than what it had been, but it's being filled. Right. So, yeah. So it's absolutely a wonderful connection, Tana. Thank you. So I think then what we're left with here, Is what then is, does this mean for us? And would you mind reading those verses again?
Tana:"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish, but to fulfill. I. For truly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter will pass from the law until all is accomplished." Do you want
Don:stop there? No. I feel like you read more than that earlier. I
Tana:did. Okay."Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."
Don:That is a terrifying passage. Yeah,
Tana:that is.
Don:And but I think it's, it's also really important. First of all, who does Jesus refer to as righteous? Fair season scribes. Yeah. The people that I have most often heard ridiculed from pulpits, Jesus says, are righteous. Yeah. Yeah. This is important. This isn't Jesus. This is one, again, one of those moments where, oh, he was being metaphorical here. They weren't really righteous, he was being sarcastic. No, no. I don't believe so. I I think you'd be hard pressed to look at those words. And pull sarcasm from'em, because then you would have to say that the other pieces were sarcastic as well. Yeah. Or at least leading into it. Yeah. Instead, this passage is saying that if we continue to teach people to ignore the laws of Torah mm-hmm. That, that's, that's going to diminish the kingdom of heaven. Yeah. Uh, and I'm not talking about like this concept of heading off to the pearly gates. I'm talking about the kingdom of heaven. Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Mm-hmm. Meaning that we have access to it if we live in such a way that discourages people from hearing these laws of justice, these laws of compassion, these laws of equity throughout Torah. Mm-hmm. And we discourage people from even, uh, participating in them. Mm-hmm. We're not going to experience the kingdom of heaven. Right. Yeah. And again, I want to be clear, I'm talking about now. Mm-hmm. I'm not talking about angel wings. Mm-hmm. I'm talking about the kingdom of heaven is breaking out, is what the Bible says. The kingdom of heaven is bursting forth and we are called to light the edge of that growth of the kingdom with the light of the world. Mm-hmm. And the hope that it brings, and we are supposed to be taking it out into the world.
Tana:So, you know, I told you about how I looked up the word fulfill. Mm-hmm. And I was like, well, I should probably also look up abolish. Yeah. And what you're talking about like, Being active, all this stuff. So, um, you know how I said, uh, there's, when you look up the definition or you look up the word in the back, there's like a couple different definitions, right? Right. So for abolish it's like deposed, destroy, but there's, it's also means rest. Yes. And just stop. Yeah. And I just, I thought that was really interesting because that also implies that you shouldn't, you NEED to be active. You shouldn't just rest like, oh, I'm upholding like the law for me. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like I am, I am being righteous in a way, but I'm not actively. Right. Going out and, and, and fulfilling the law for other people.
Don:It reminds me, I had a conversation with someone, uh, a couple months ago, and I was talking about something that was happening in the news, and their response was, I just, I don't watch the news. I just can't take it. It just stresses me out, and so I am not watching the news anymore. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And my response to that was, that's why I watch the news. Yeah. So I don't rest. Right. I don't stop because as a middle-aged white man, I got a lot of pre, I got a lot of benefits. Mm-hmm. I have a lot of privilege. Mm-hmm. And it would be easy if I cut out the noise. And what's it called in music when there's no noise? Arrest? Arrest. Look at me that when I cut out the noise, it allows me to rest. Yeah. And resting with a purpose is different than Sure. Yeah. Than just stopping. Yeah. And I think what we've allowed this verse and this passage to do, mm-hmm. Is allow us to just stop. Mm-hmm.
Tana:Jesus fulfilled it. So we're done.
Don:And therefore we have been in many ways when it comes to equity, justice, mercy, compassion, uh, care for the other, acceptance, all those things we have rested and asked God to handle it. Yeah. Not realizing that what we've contributed to is the abolishing of God's love letter. Hmm. To humanity. Mm-hmm. And I don't blame people for rejecting what this faith has become because yeah, this faith has become about being, having the right knowledge instead of about having the right way of viewing the world and others. Yeah. Yeah.
Tana:Well, that feels like a good place to stop for today. I feel like there's actually so much more we could say, but then we would just get on more rabbit trails and then we'd have like a three hour podcast, uh, episode, so Sounds awesome. Any final thoughts to share? Don?
Don:I just want to make sure that we're very clear about, about something particular to me. I think that we can often feel, you mentioned 613 commands as counted by Maimonides right? In Acts 15, it's the story that we hear as the Jerusalem Council. In Acts 15, they're trying to determine, the Jewish apostles are trying to determine, oh shit, we have all of these Gentiles coming in. Uh, what are we supposed to teach them? What are we supposed to tell them? What do they have to do and agree to before they can become a part of us? Right. Right. And I get it. That's really complicated because up until this moment in history, Judaism was never an evangelistic, and I don't even think to this day, is considered an evangelistic uh, faith. Mm-hmm. And so now I think you have this huge influx of gentiles. Because of Paul. Mm-hmm. Particularly believes that now that Jesus has come this and believes that Jesus is the savior, that the, that God's kingdom being physically set up on the earth, God's throne, literally in Jerusalem, that the world is about to change drastically with God's physical presence, not just, uh, menorah. Mm-hmm. And because of that, all these gentiles are being brought into the fold. The apostles are worried about this, but what are they gonna do about Torah? What are they gonna do about Sabbath? How are they going to know what they're supposed to, they can eat what they can't eat. They're worried about all these things. And after a debate at the Jerusalem Council comes back, let them just follow these, and they, they give, I think, four or five, which we call the Noah Hyde Laws. Mm. Of these four or five things. Mm. If they follow those, that'll be enough. But that's not a period there. It might be, but it's not the end of the conversation. Mm-hmm. What we often stop, and by the way, we don't even do those first, those four or five. Um, I encourage people to go look at Acts 15 and see what those are, and then really parse through and see if, if you're doing at least those minimums, but then it says kind of almost as an afterthought, Because every Sabbath, they will sit in the synagogue and hear Moses taught. Mm. Which implies they don't need to have it all figured out today. Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. They don't have to know all 613 laws, although they wouldn't have caught numbered it that way, then they don't need to know all of the commands mm-hmm. In order to be a part of this. Mm-hmm. Instead, They just need to do these few things, and most of those, I would argue, are very justice minded and mm-hmm uh, really eliminated them from attending a certain feast, uh, that the gentiles had that were, was horrific. Um, and so Guild Feast is what they were, and this eliminates them from attending Guild feasts and, and then just says, because they're going to hear Moses taught, they'll learn it over time. It's not that they have to be perfect. Mm. And this is where I think sometimes we can feel daunted, um, by these, this idea of like, so what are you guys saying that we need to follow all the laws of Torah? And my argument for that is we believe that Jesus did. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And we believed he lived the most perfect life. Yeah. So shouldn't we try his regimen? Right. Shouldn't we at least consider those things? And it might take us the rest of our life to add a handful, but would we not be better off for it? Would our neighbors not be better off for it? Would the world not be better off for it? And what does it hurt to try? Right? That's it. Yeah. 1, 1, 1 step at a time. Uh, no one needs to take this all on at once. In Acts 15, they said, no, we should not make them take everything on all at one time. Yeah. And neither should we. So yeah. Do
Tana:you not be daunted by the enormity of the world's grief?
Don:Yes. There you go.
Tana:What is it? Walk humbly now. Show mercy. Now do justice now. Yes. I'm sure. I didn't say the exact exactly properly, but I love the sentiment. Yes, I agree. So, well, thank you all for joining us. Um, I just want to, uh, invite you if you are interested in continuing the conversation, if you wanna leave us any comments, if you have any questions about what we talked about, we are on pretty much all the socials. Um, you can, you know, either send us messages if you wanna private conversation or you can comment and we can continue the convo there. Uh, we are on YouTube, youtube.com/@ajff uh, our website is ajffpodcast.com and if you'd like to support the work we're doing, you can go to buymeacoffee.com/ajff and either become a member or just, uh, leave a little token of support. So thank you all for supporting us and for listening, and we'll see you next time.
Don:Bye.