Is the Great Commission about evangelism or discipleship? What does it truly mean to be a disciple? Don and Tana discuss the meaning of the Great Commission (Matthew 28:16-20) and explore the difference between evangelism and discipleship.
Come for the intellectual discussion, stay for a description of Bald Eagle Jesus.
Book recommendation: Paul Was Not a Christian by Pamela Eisenbaum
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Is the Great Commission about evangelism or discipleship? What does it truly mean to be a disciple? Don and Tana discuss the meaning of the Great Commission (Matthew 28:16-20) and explore the difference between evangelism and discipleship.
Come for the intellectual discussion, stay for a description of Bald Eagle Jesus.
Book recommendation: Paul Was Not a Christian by Pamela Eisenbaum
Buy us a coffee!
Website
YouTube
TikTok
Facebook
Instagram
We imagine that when Jesus is talking to a crowd, he's evangelizing them. 90% of the time in the text, they're Jews. He's not evangelizing them. It's not evangelism that's happening there, it's teaching. Mm-hmm. And yet Jesus differentiated from the people who were already a part of the faith that when he was teaching them, he did not confuse them with being disciples. And I think this is key because I think most pastors believe that they disciple from the pulpit every Sunday.
Tana:Hello and welcome to the Ancient Jesus Future Faith Podcast. Sarah's on break today. So it is Don Schiewer. Hello and me, Tana Schiewer. Hello. I, I don't know how to, I feel strange introducing myself. I don't know what it is. It is, I, Tana Schiewer. Anyway, uh, so today we're gonna be talking about the Great Commission, and I'm going to start off by reading, uh, verses 16 through 19, which say, uh, I believe this is the NIV that I'm reading from. Then the 11 disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him, but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, all authority in Heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. So, Yes. Uh, what were you taught about the Great Commission growing up?
Don:You know, it was, it was heavy, right? Yeah. Like, it was like I was responsible for the salvation of people. Mm. That. What happened if I did not take my one opportunity to witness to someone and that person died in a car accident, geez, and I could have prevented their eternal damnation right now. I don't know if it was ever stated that succinctly to me, but that is definitely the impression I carried with me through a large portion of my life, probably through my early twenties. I had a sense of regret and sadness about friendships I had in high school that I was ashamed of the gospel, quote unquote. So I wouldn't share my faith with them, with people, and that in some way if something were to have happened to them. That I'd be responsible for their torture for eternity.
Tana:That's a lot of pressure to put on young people, any person. But I mean, especially growing up. Yeah, I, the interesting thing is growing up in the Catholic church, I don't remember that being as much of an emphasis.
Don:Yeah. And you also just don't care about eternal torture of other people. Because
Tana:only Catholics are getting into heaven.
Don:See, the laughter, the laughter proves my point.
Tana:Uh, yes, I don't care. Uh, but I remember when I switched from Catholicism and started going to, uh, Protestant church. I remember the great commission being emphasized a lot like growing up in. The nineties evangelical sort of world. I felt like it was very, very much about getting souls, you know? Yep. Like it was very, um, you have to be an evangelist and you, it is incumbent upon you to basically like preach at every single
Don:person that made, and, and that didn't lead you to feel what I was feeling.
Tana:Um, so I. I don't remember feeling.
Don:And by the way, I wanna say I hope it didn't because it was a horrible thing to feel and it's a lie.
Tana:Yeah. I would have to really go back and try to remember the thing that sticks out to me the most was, uh, I was struggling with the idea that every single person had to be an evangelist and what that was supposed to look like.
Don:Yeah. That's a different kind of pressure, but still it's just a ton
Tana:of pressure. Yeah. And. It was so antithetical to who I was like, I was not gonna be That person who gets on the plane sits down and looks at the person in the seat next to me and goes, do you believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior? You know, uh, well if you
Don:use that voice,
Tana:yeah, I'd probably get a lot of no go away, but I. That, and that was very much what was presented to me as the like, that's what you should be doing. And to me, although I didn't have really like the language for it at the time, that felt very um, Like the wrong emphasis. It, it, it felt very like, it actually to me, I was like, well, I feel like that would drive people away, especially the way I would see some people doing evangelism. Right? Sure. Um, especially when it would be sort of like the turn or burn kind of kind of message, right. Of, you know, well, do you, do you feel like you have your salvation? Do you wanna go to hell? Like, what kind of message is that? To, to get somebody to believe. Right. So I just,
Don:I mean, fear is a very powerful motivator. Just look at our current GOP Oh yeah,
Tana:yeah. Everything's fear based. Um, but the. For me, it was trying to untangle that pressure of, oh, I'm supposed to be doing this thing, and then the guilt of I'm not doing this thing because it makes me very uncomfortable and it is not my personality, and I don't even, I wouldn't even know what to say to somebody. I wouldn't know how to argue with them if I needed to argue with them. You know what I'm saying? So, Yeah. But I, I do remember that being like, the goal, you have to get, save all these souls. And it was always about that and not about really helping anyone in any way. It was more just like, well, is their soul saved? Okay. Nothing else matters. Oh, right.
Don:Because people, if you, if you're helping people in a different way, the the phrase that often got tossed around, Towards me or that I would hear would be, well man cannot survive on bread alone. That one Yes, yes. Implying that, um, but by the very word of God, and therefore that means evangelism and that to take care of a person's needs was not enough that we also needed to evangelize them. And that even to do the first without the second was in some way a, a negative. And that's, that was really something that, that I was hit with a lot. That this isn't about, you know, if it was a soup kitchen, it wasn't about whether or not the person's stomach was full. It was whether or not they also heard the gospel message while they were eating
Tana:right. And that makes me think of a lot of the stuff that came out of this period of time, which was, uh, tracts the, the evangelism tracts tracts and the, the, um, folded money that would look like you're leaving a big tip on the table. But it was actually like a little evangelism
Don:tool. Yeah. Quick, quick side story, and I may have told this on this podcast, or if not, maybe on the Evangebros podcast that I used to do. But, uh, I was, I had taken some seminary classes and one of the seminary courses I took was Evangelism and Discipleship. So it might come up again in this discussion today. Oh, interesting. But it, uh, one of the individuals there said, I always like to leave as a tip. Oh, no. One of these, one of these things. Uh, and they were referring to one of these bills that looks like a$50 bill or$20 bill, but when you open it, it's actually a Salvation mm-hmm. Tract right? Mm-hmm. And when she said that, sh I, I don't remember the exact conversation. This has been, man, probably 15 years ago or longer. And they, she had said something to the effect of basically let the, let space for people to applaud her. Mm. Or mm-hmm. Left room for people to be like, wow, that's awesome. Mm-hmm. Because we were talking about evangelism in this evangelism and discipleship class. Mm-hmm. And I said, that just makes you an asshole. And the class stops. Like it just stops. You hear a record scratch. Yeah. Yeah. Basically. And, and when the class stopped, the woman who was sharing this about that she likes to do this, raises her hand and the professor's like, yes. And she's like, can he swear in here? And I said, I'm a fucking adult. And the professor's like, We, we prefer if maybe we didn't have profanity in class, but there is nothing against him swearing and they were more upset that I swore. It reminds me of like the, oh, Tony Campolo yeah, the Tony Campolo where he says, uh, you know, today a hundred thousand or a thousand children die and no one gives a shit. In fact, you're more upset that I said shit than all these children are dying. Mm-hmm. Anyhow, more upset about that, but. Yes. So that is my, my side side story on those tracks that look like money. And I just said, look, I've waited tables and it's a grueling job. Mm-hmm. And when you finally get someone that it looks like they not only tipped appropriately, but they actually tipped extravagantly and you're remembering all the people that left change. Yeah. On the table or nothing. No. Or nothing, and you finally see that$20 bill or you see something and, and then you, when you grab it, you find out that it's a message about Jesus. It's, it's not hope. No, it's not helpful. Mm-hmm. In fact, it's aggravating and upsetting. I think that those. I'm sure someone somewhere is still handing those out. I have a feeling that those have kind of gone the way of the buffalo. Mm-hmm. Uh, that we're not seeing those any longer, but yeah. Yeah. That's my, that's my story with that. I called someone an asshole, uh, in my seminary class.
Tana:I mean, that's not shocking to me. Uh, but, but I mean, I rem and I remember thinking at the time, These are ways to actually drive people away. Yeah. You know, I feel like some of the tools that people used were more detrimental than helpful
Don:and it's, it's also a, so when you read that, I, I asked you to stop at 19. Yes. And the reason I asked you to stop at 19 is because I think that's where most people hear this talk. Can you just read the actual great commission up through the end of 19? To start, don't you said
Tana:a little bit earlier when I said Jesus came to them. Okay. All authority in heaven on Earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Now
Don:my experience growing up, and maybe others have had a different one that's we treated the end of 19 as if there was a period there. What is the actual punctuation at the end of 19? Uh, comma, which implies what? There's more and what is that more?
Tana:And teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
Don:This is really significant, right. That the, and teaching them everything that I have commanded you. A tract is not doing that. Mm-hmm. You are not teaching people everything that Jesus commanded. You're not doing anything, you are behaving as a surrogate, not even Right. And, and in this instance, it's just, it is probably one of the great, I always use, I'm so bombastic. One of the greatest atrocities that we do in Christendom is that we've reduced the great commission to evangelism. Mm. Mm-hmm. And I would argue, Jesus did not have evangelism in mind. Mm. When he gave the Great Commission. So I don't think that in this passage, the word commission is used. Right. That's our heading. Uh, I think you could argue, and therefore Jesus commissioned them could be implied. But when you hear the word commission, Tana. What does that mean to you? If something is commissioned, uh, or someone commissions someone, what is the, what is the the meaning of that?
Tana:I always think of like paintings or compositions of like a wealthy patron commissioned someone to do a specific thing,
Don:and so what would then, how would that apply to the disciples here when you're thinking about now Jesus is commissioning them.
Tana:He's telling them to do it.
Don:So in this idea of like when we do, uh, commencement speeches, which I'd be curious if those have a similar Uh huh. Background or graduation speeches, we will commission the, the students to now go and take what they've learned. Yeah. And extend it. You now are no longer the student. Right? Not to say that you can't keep learning, but you now have graduating, you are now being, uh, commissioned to go use your skills that you have learned mm-hmm. In the ways that benefit, however, right? Mm-hmm. So if, if that is indeed the way that we should read this, Then, then what kind of, does anything shift in this reading for you if you read it more from that, uh, perspective?
Tana:Yeah, because then I, I, I couldn't make the connection at first with like the money part of like, oh, a rich patron pays money. But basically what that patron is doing by paying money to a painter, for example, is giving them the, the kind of giving them the tools they need to make the painting, right? Because, They can take that money and go get the supplies they need and it compensates them for their time with a graduation. Uh, the students have learned, you know, they have, they have been taught these things all throughout the. The, the college experience, they are granted a degree and so therefore they are equipped to go do the thing. So then that makes me think like Jesus is like, well, I have equipped you now. I have taught you, you have been with me, and so you now have the tools you need to go do this thing.
Don:Right. It's graduation day. Yeah. No, I'm being, I'm being very serious. Yeah. This is the Apostle's graduation day. Hmm. And Jesus is saying, your discipleship with me is over. Mm. We finished. We have completed your teaching. We have completed your education. And now your job graduating discipleship school is that you are now the discipler. Mm. Mm-hmm. And what does a discipler do? Disciples. And what does a discipler who is discipling do.
Tana:Um, so teaches, but also as an example, like it's not just like a classroom you would think of, you know, you go and you listen to a lecture or whatever. The discipler takes them along with them lives, life with them, and acts as the example for how they should be, and also teaches them everything they need to know.
Don:Good job. So you seem so confident. So there's another passage that, and we'll circle back then to this because I think it's important to lay a little bit of groundwork. So there's a passage that might sound familiar to you and the listener that is. It says, uh, something to the effect of who gives you authority. Right? And this is a really interesting moment. Jesus is doing something. Jesus' is teaching, and someone's response to Jesus's teaching is, where does this man get his authority? Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And that's an important question. And it's probably means something differently than what many of us heard growing up in the church. So when you hear that, uh, and you think about, you may have never been taught on this specific passage, growing that specific verse growing up, but compiling all the things you learned growing up in the church, whether it's the Catholic church, protestant church, whatever, how would you imagine understanding that?
Tana:Yeah. Understanding the question of who gives you you, yeah. What are
Don:they asking Jesus, or what are they asking about Jesus?
Tana:Who taught you, who was your rabbi?
Don:So I think that that is probably what most people would think. Mm-hmm. But the language used there actually implies something else. Because what it implies is that Jesus had a unique authority. Mm-hmm. Quote unquote. Mm-hmm. To interpret the Bible. Okay. That Jesus had an unique authority where Jesus imagined he could say something such as, you have heard it said, but I tell you. Oh, right. Sound familiar? Yes. Yes. Because that was basically a no-no. Unless you had this unique authority. Oh, right, because you were only supposed to teach what,
Tana:I guess like Torah standard, what
Don:someone with authority taught you. Right? Right. So only in only a handful of people throughout Jewish history had, what was this unique authority? Where they were able to give a brand new interpretation. They were able to take us a text and they were able to say, you have heard. But I tell you. Tell
Tana:you. So is that certain rabbis, like Hillel
Don:Hillel would've been someone with authority? Yep. Rashi. Is that one of them? Rashi, I'm guessing, would've had authority. Um, Uh, Gamliel probably would not gile. That was one. Okay. Probably would not have. And that's Hillel's grandson. Oh, okay. So he probably only taught Hillel's teachings. Okay. Right. Jesus agrees with Hillel on almost everything except for divorce. Divorce. And I would argue. That would've been confusing to people because you taught what your teacher said, and I think you could make a case that Jesus was probably taught by Hillel or Galio or someone within that, within that system.
Tana:So who gave those people? Like how did you know that those were the people who had that authority? So you had
Don:to have two people, Uhhuh, who had authority. Okay. Give authority to you.
Tana:Oh. Interesting. Okay. So when they were asking Jesus, who gives you this authority, they expected him to name two rabbis.
Don:Yes. And do you remember what it is that Jesus, uh, what goes on in this scene? I think he
Tana:says, like my father,
Don:so John the Baptist, who people believed had authority. Right. Okay. Right. So John the Baptist, uh, and God, Or Jesus's witnesses right now, it could be debated, like, okay, way to pull the God card. Jesus. Right? Sure. Yeah. Yeah. What a dick move. Yeah. Um, but, but this is where Jesus is like, they're not gonna listen. They're not gonna hear it. They're gonna be like, whatever. Right. So, but this is an important thing is that as Jesus is coming up, Through the ranks, so to speak, or as he's preaching around, there became this thing where he speaks and you'll hear it. He speaks with authority. Right, right. When you hear that, when you read that in the text and it talks about Jesus's teaching with authority Uhhuh, it doesn't mean that he was confident and he had chutzpah it. It means instead that he was reinterpreting long held views of the text in unique and new ways. I. Right. And if you heard someone doing that, you should be suspicious unless you knew who it was that said, anointed him basically to say, you may make interpretations, you know the text, you are close enough to God, you have done all the things. Correct, that you have this authority. Mm-hmm. To now be able to interpret the text. Mm-hmm. Right. People when they heard Jesus teach. Were blown away. Mm-hmm. They were, they were astounded at his teachings. Mm-hmm. And then they would ask, who is it that gave this man such authority? Mm. Who is it that allowed this man to teach in these ways that are blowing our minds, who are changing the ways that we're thinking about the world? Who has given him mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Authority. Mm-hmm. Right. So why does that matter for the Great Commission?
Tana:Uh, well, Jesus says, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Yes. He uses the word
Don:authority there. Yes. The ability to interpret, not I'm in charge. Right. Right. Like you have to understand not I'm in charge and I'm king, but that I have an ability or I have has been bestowed upon me. A uniqueness to see and understand the world and faithfulness and God. Yeah. Salvation, uh, which means safety and empire. And I have been given this unique authority and now do what with it, uh,
Tana:commission you.
Don:What does verse 20 say?
Tana:Teach them to obey everything I have commanded you.
Don:Yes. Go and teach my teachings. Yeah,
Tana:yeah, yeah. So this is Jesus being the rabbi saying, I have given
Don:you. Not authority. No. He is not giving them authority. Oh, he's saying I have authority. I have authority. Teach what? I not teach my teachings. He has not given them authority.
Tana:Okay, so I have a question. Yes. Uh, I know Paul wasn't a disciple, but it feels like Paul kind of expanded on some things that Jesus said.
Don:So I think, I think you're correct and incorrect simultaneously. Woo. Sweet spot. I think the way that we have, uh, because of the lens that has been handed us mm-hmm. We read Paul that way. Mm-hmm. I think that if you read Paul through a, uh, Jewish lens mm-hmm. Uh, that it's, doesn't feel the same way, it doesn't feel like he is. Like stepping outside of boundaries. Uh, great book. Pamela Eisenberg. Paul was not a Christian. Uh, wonderful, wonderful book. I always say when I recommend that book that, um, that the title, I feel like the title was given by, uh, the publisher because Pamela Eisen Baum's uh, handling of Paul is so kind. And generous towards Christians. She's a Jewish scholar who teaches New Testament and early Christian, uh, uh, history. Mm-hmm. And she's so kind in that book and she is not like, it's not at all like confrontational, but the title feels very confrontational. Paul was not a Christian. Mm. Uh, so it's, anyhow, highly recommend it. Wonderful book. If you want to kind of read, if you want the op opportunity in a. Easily digestible book or fairly easily digestible book to, uh, kind of hear paw through a lens that doesn't feel like he is, uh, going against or taking some creative license, uh, as, as you were referring. So, yeah.
Tana:Okay. I'm sorry. Uh, I actually interrupted you with that question. So you were talking about what, um, that Jesus had commissioned the, uh, disciples to teach what he had taught them. Correct.
Don:So this is one of the things that I think is, is always fascinating is that we want Jesus to always be unique, like a hundred percent unique. In fact, earlier I mentioned that Jesus was probably brought up in the School of Hillel. And for some people that's like, you know, mind, mind blowing.
Tana:Oh, right, right. Like that he could have had a teacher
Don:and was Yeah. Like, what? Yeah. But yet we see in the passage that talks about him, uh, hanging out at the temple. And his parents are looking for him around the age of a Bar Mitzvah. Mm-hmm. That, uh, you know, he, he's like, where else would I have been? I'm about my father's work, so I'm at my father's house and it says, and he was sitting on the steps. Basically interacting with the rabbis or the teachers. Mm-hmm. Which means he was learning. Mm-hmm. I think sometimes in our, in our American bald eagle, Jesus, we, like at his baptism, it was not a dove. A bald eagle draped in an American flag comes out of the sky and, and God says this patriot of whom I'm, well please. Right. That we imagine Jesus was holding court. Right? We do. Yes. Yes. That, that Jesus was there and Jesus was like, he was telling, and he was blowing their minds, right? And they were like, oh my gosh, who was this kid? Yeah. Um, and, but, but that's not what most likely happened. I, I mean, obviously I wasn't there, so I, I can't for certain say, but it seems more likely that Jesus was there listening and he was proudly asking. Phenomenal questions. Mm. And he was engaging the teachers in a way that they probably viewed him and were like, this is a great potential student. Mm. Now we don't really hear anything about Jesus again until he's 30. Right. Right. Yeah. And I think this is important because I would argue the reason you wouldn't hear anything about Jesus until he's 30 is because that's, 30 is the age at which you were able to start teaching. Mm-hmm. And you weren't, you weren't supposed to teach until the age of 30. Mm. Right. And boy, wouldn't we be better off if, uh, oh my gosh. Particularly, uh, yeah. Anything
Tana:25 year old Evange- bros.
Don:Yes. So, and I would argue that from the age of 12 to 30 mm-hmm. That is about the amount of time that you would've been being discipled. Mm. Okay. Mm-hmm. And because of that, I would argue, Jesus, we don't hear anything about Jesus from 12 to 30 because he was, uh, in a yeshiva. Um, and he was being, I probably mispronounce that, but he was, he was being trained to be a teacher. And at some point in the midst of that, It becomes clear that he has authority. Mm. And it, he begins teaching. And from the first day we see him out on the, you know, countryside teaching people perceive he as authority. So now Jesus at Jesus would have been at around the age of 30 commissioned his teacher. If. Plausible. I, I'd say it's plausible. I don't, I can't say for certain Jesus was discipled, but if Jesus was discipled, Jesus would've had a commencement day in which his teacher would've got up and said, now it is your job to go and make disciples. Hmm. And, and then Jesus and his fellow graduates would've left at that moment, and they would've begun. Finding people to disciple, they would've started calling disciples. Disciples would've started, uh, being attracted to them and coming to them and asking to be discipled by them. And as their name grew, and by name I mean character and reputation, not, uh, like sometimes we can make that icky, and I, I really just mean as, as Jesus's reputation or anybody's reputation grew. Mm-hmm. People would start coming to them. Mm-hmm. And they would no longer have to call someone to discipleship, but people would be attracted to them and want to be discipled by them. And we see that immediately as Jesus, you know, in the first couple chapters of every gospel is basically Jesus calling disciples. Yeah. Right After we get over the birth narrative and Yeah. Everything we, we see these moments where Jesus is calling people because he has begun at 30. To disciple, right? He's gone through a great commissioning, right? Yeah. Uh, and, and so Jesus did these things. Now Jesus is saying to his disciples, I who have authority, am now calling you to go and make disciples. And because of that, they're sent out. Mm. Now, What do you imagine is unique? Because this is not unique, this process, but what is relatively unique is something in that verse. What, what do you imagine is the unique thing in that verse?
Tana:Um, so wait, which verse are you talking about? Are you talking about the entire great commission or are you talking about specific.
Don:Probably 19 would be my guess.
Tana:Therefore, go and make disciples, baptize all that.
Don:Yes. But you skipped the
Tana:unique part. Sorry. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations. Baptizing them. Na, all nations. Yes. Okay.
Don:Because discipleship would've been Jewish children. Right, right. And one of the things that Jesus does that I think is interesting. And unique, and whether this is something added by an author because the disciples or the apostles started doing this, I don't know, but this idea of going and making disciples of all nations mm-hmm. Is fascinating. Mm-hmm. Because that wouldn't have necessarily been something that one thought about. And I think it's important for us to recognize that Jesus had this perspective that in the same way that Paul did, that now that the Messiah had come, that the four corners of the earth. Mm-hmm. This is not Paul pitching a flat earth, flat earth, that the full four corners of the earth. Mm-hmm. Would be, um, brought under God. Mm-hmm. And that the glory of God, the presence of God, the, um, wellbeing of God would fill the whole earth. Mm-hmm. And Jesus is saying to his disciples, go out and be prepared to teach these people who are now being drawn to that God. Mm-hmm. Not go out and convert people. Mm-hmm. To this, but as people started to flock into the faith, as we see with Paul, more and more people started becoming interested. More and more people started to find the teachings of Jesus to be impactful regardless of their faith upbringing, right? Mm-hmm. They started thinking about this more and more, and it started become drawing a lot of people, and upon this I. They have to be prepared. How do we teach these folks? And, uh, our last episode, we did the first episode of season three. We talked about, uh, the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15. Mm-hmm. Because that exact situation arises, how do we teach these people Mm. That are now interested Oh, right. In this faith? Yeah. Who are gentiles? Like what, what are we supposed to teach them? And so the idea was that the disciples. That that just graduated, were to go out and start discipling people. Yeah. People that already were interested in Yahweh. Mm-hmm. But didn't have the teachings, didn't have the understanding, and their job was to go out and start calling these people into discipleship. Yeah. That's a huge difference between evangelism and discipleship, right? Yeah. So if you had to. That that's, you know, this is always a tough game that we play almost every podcast where, you know, the three of us, I know Sarah's not here today, but the three of us, we have a lot of years of thinking about the text differently. So we always kind of ask ourselves to put off some of that learning Yeah. That we've done over the last, you know, several years, decades. And think back to a time prior to that. So I'm gonna ask you to do that, and I know it's always complicated. What, what do you, what would you have said was the difference between evangelism and discipleship earlier on in life?
Tana:I'm trying to extract my current knowledge. Yeah, it's complicated. Yeah, it is
Don:complicated. I'd say a lot of us just never thought
Tana:about it, you know? I think what I probably would have thought at the time, Was kind of restricted to almost like a physicality, like evangelism is going out and getting people to come to church, and then discipleship is what you do with them when they're there.
Don:I, I think that's probably Maybe not stated, but I think that's probably what a lot of people think evangelism is the decision, discipleship is attendance.
Tana:Yeah. I mean, and that really was, I felt like what it was kind of reduced to like discipleship was kind of like attending small groups and going to bible studies. Like that was discipleship. Yeah.
Don:It's what's interesting is when we, we put our more current. Um, bald eagle Jesus into these settings. We imagine that when Jesus is talking to a crowd, he's evangelizing them. 90% of the time in the text, they're Jews. He's not evangelizing them. They already believe in Yahweh, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not evangelism that's happening there, it's teaching. Mm-hmm. And yet Jesus differentiated from the people who were already a part of the faith that when he was teaching them, he did not confuse them with being disciples. And I think this is key because I think most pastors believe that they disciple from the pulpit every Sunday. Yeah.
Tana:I absolutely think that's what they think they're doing. But that's not
Don:discipleship, right? That's teaching. That's teaching. Yeah. And I can give you an example of that, right? So all these people come out onto, into the wilderness to hear Jesus teach. Mm-hmm. We have a miracle of fish and loaves that happens. Right? Okay. In the midst of all this, there's a moment where the crowd is pressing up against Jesus. Jesus has just gotten outta the boat. It's a, it's within these few chapters of the fishes and wolves, Jesus gets out of the boat. And the crowd is pressing in. Yeah. The disciples are still in the boat. Okay. These, this crowd are all people that want to hear the teachings of Jesus. Yeah. They're all there to hear him. They're all there because what Jesus talks about when he, when he talks about God and when he talks about faith is something that stirs their hearts. Yeah. Right. Jesus looks at them and says, It says he turns from the crowd and tells his disciples to cross the sea. Hmm. I think that's such a profound moment. Hmm.
Tana:He's differentiating between crowd and disciples.
Don:Yes. Sundays at church are crowds. Crowds. The disciples are something different. And I think that this is important because one, I. Jesus didn't imagine that the 5,000 people that were there were his disciples. Sure. Yeah. But I would argue that a pastor who has a church of 5,000 mm would be a bit confused I as to who their disciples are. Yeah. And the other thing I would say is not everyone is called to be a disciple. Oh, interesting. So, And I think this, this is such a, this is another high pressure thing we were talking about the high pressure of evangelism. This is a high pressure thing that I think is unfair. Mm-hmm. When Jesus is, uh, at the temple and his parents are looking for him, he says, didn't you know I'd be about my father's business? So at the time of Jesus, the way things worked within Jewish culture, and I'm sure a lot of the surrounding cultures, well, I don't know that this was unique to Judaism, was that, um, whatever skill. Because we're getting more into urbanization where there's trade and markets and stuff, and it's not just self-sustaining. And so people developed individual skills. His father a carpenter, which most likely was more a mason than a carpenter because there's not a whole lot of, it's not like there's forests everywhere. Uh, and so it's most likely a Right. Yeah. A mason. Yeah. And when Jesus is at the. Uh, at the temple. He says, I, I'm about my father's business, James and John, the, the Thunder Brothers. Right? They they are fishing? Mm-hmm. Why? Because their father was a fisherman. Mm-hmm. And they went into the father's business. Mm-hmm. Instead of what?
Tana:Instead of anything else.
Don:Instead of going into discipleship. Mm. Right. Because the rabbis. Would call people into discipleship. So, uh, Judaism was one of the first, if not the first, to offer public education. So from a very early age, you went to school, you had to memorize Torah, you had to do all these different things in school, public school, and your town had a synagogue that both functioned as a synagogue as well as a school education, all that stuff. Wonderful concept. Community center was a synagogue, right? Yeah. Differentiate from a temple. And so in the synagogue you would go in and you'd have public school if your community could afford to have a rabbi. And that, or at that time, rabbi wasn't an official role. It was a title for teacher. So if you're, if your town could afford to have a teacher in it, you would have a synagogue and the students would go there and learn. At some point, the teacher would say, okay, it's now time for you to go do your father's work. Which was around the age of 12, a Bar Mitzvah, bat mitzvah, right At that point, now, up until the age of a Bar Mitzvah or bat mitzvah, at least in ancient times, the parents were responsible for the actions and behavior of their children. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. I don't know, you know, as kind of quick aside to our listeners, That becomes the age of accountability in Western Christianity. Mm-hmm. That mm-hmm. Uh, you know, whatever sins you commit before the age of a certain thing aren't held against you. So that helps us explain away like if a child dies, are they going to heaven or hell? Right. Which is just a terrible conversation regardless. Right. Yeah. Much less to put on a parent that just faced that tragic loss. Right. But the idea was that anything, any mistakes a child made that sin fell upon the parent the parent was responsible for, but then at the Bar mitzvah, They then became responsible for their own actions. Mm-hmm. Which was around the age of 12. Okay. Which is when Jesus, and at that moment as you become an adult, quote unquote. Mm-hmm. I realize 12 is not really sure what we'd consider an adult. Right. But at 12 you gained a certain level of autonomy you didn't have mm-hmm. Prior. And you went into business, you either helped with the fishing. Mm-hmm. Helped with the masonry or carpentry. Mm-hmm. Helped with the agriculture, whatever it was. You then went into working so. Not to say you didn't do any chores or anything prior to that, but at the age of 12 is when you really shifted. Your schooling was over. Now a unique few, and we talked about this a little bit again, last podcast, that, uh, when if they fulfilled a certain amount of things, they were able to go to grad school. Mm-hmm. And instead of being sent home mm-hmm. To do their father's work. Mm-hmm. They stayed and studied under a rabbi. Okay. And eventually they would become a teacher themself. Yeah. And it was very few that ever became a teacher. Mm. Very, very few. Right. So, so to, if you think about the numbers from high school to, uh, undergrad, to master's to PhD, the percentage of people that end up with a PhD Sure. Is really small. So, Because not everyone's cut out to do a PhD. Mm-hmm. Right. And they either don't want to, they're not good at it, whatever. Not everyone has, and we shouldn't all walk around thinking that we're terrible because we don't have a PhD. Right. Right. Even though you, Dr. Schiewer probably think that about all of us.
Tana:Yes. I look down on everybody who does not have a PhD.
Don:I feel that daily. So in this picture, uh, Jesus has surpassed, he has fulfilled the obligations to move on to grad school. Mm-hmm. And he becomes a teacher. Mm-hmm. Or a rabbi. Mm-hmm. Not official role, like it becomes after 70 ce, but at this time was still called Rabbi, which just meant teacher. Mm-hmm. And he becomes this teacher. And so he is now teaching people and we have to recognize that not everyone is. Is a disciple. Yeah. Not everyone is a PhD. Yeah. And I'm not trying to put discipleship with PhD. I don't know which one I'd be putting down by doing that comparison, but I'm, but what we need to recognize is it wasn't a disservice, right. For someone to not be a disciple. Right. But it was a unique and profound call like a parent would have. Like, have you ever thought about like what was Jam James and John's dad's reaction when they drop the fricking nets. Right. Leave them. Yeah. And go after Jesus? Yeah. Like what, what do you think, what do you think their, their father's reaction to that was? Like, if we use our, our normal idea of all of
Tana:this, like a, like a. Current kind of, yeah. You know, like I, I think currently if something like that were to happen, the father would be mad. You, you are irresponsible. You just, and you, you've, you dropped the family business and so also sad and hurt and Yeah.
Don:You know, instead, what do you think he actually probably felt.
Tana:Like pride.
Don:Oh my gosh. Yeah. He was probably like, I'll clean the nets myself.
Tana:Yeah. No big deal.
Don:Go get'em. Yeah. Like don't, don't even let it slow you down. Yeah. Like, like I'll send clothes, just go Right. Like this, this rabbi walked by, saw my boys and saw something in them that I had always seen in them. Mm-hmm. But they got the short stick. They never, they were never accepted because they were from Nazareth or wherever. Right. Like they never got anywhere. And this teacher comes by and everyone's talking about how he has authority.
Tana:Yeah, yeah.
Don:And how he's this great teacher and he sees my boys.
Tana:Yeah.
Don:And he's like, you come with me. So I think that the scene is just really powerful and important, and I think it's also powerful and important to recognize that the people that Jesus didn't call to discipleship, who were fishermen, he still showed up and healed them. He still went out into the hillsides to teach them. He still looked at them and loved them. He still cared about them. They were still the most important things to them, and I think that we feel in some way that we're either disciples or we're not. Mm-hmm. And, and I agree with that, but it's more so like if, like in or out, and that's not the case. Mm. Like I've, I grew up in a church that you know, is very much anti Christmas and Easters like roll their eyes like, oh, you only show up two times a year. Oh, Uhhuh. I don't think Jesus got upset about that. I think Jesus looked at people that, I mean, it'd be strange for them to show up at Christmas and Easter, uh, when Jesus was around, but, um, show up for his birthday party. Uh, but I think Jesus would look at them and have compassion and be like, life is hard. Life is busy. It's complicated. And I'm glad that you're here today.
Tana:Yeah.
Don:And while you're here, I have something to say that hopefully brings you hope. Encouragement and reminds you of the love of God. Mm-hmm. And I think that then there's people that attend two times a month and then four times a month and never miss a Sunday ever. And then people who, uh, volunteer at the church or do extras here and there within the faith or lead a nonprofit that is
Tana:Yeah,
Don:based in faithful behavior and ideas. Mm-hmm. And some people are going to be pastors, and I also don't believe that all pastors are disciples. Mm. And that's okay. Right? There's nothing that says
Tana:they're not disciples or they're not disciplers?
Don:Both.
Tana:Okay.
Don:You can't be a disciple if you're not a disciple.
Tana:Okay.
Don:Yeah. And that's the other piece I think a lot of people are trying to disciple when they themselves haven't. Ben. Yeah. And it's important to understand discipleship doesn't look, can't look the way it did in Jesus's days. We've lost that rhythm.
Tana:Yeah. Yeah.
Don:We no longer have someone like I think about. Cabinetry, I think is such a great example. Mm-hmm. Like the, there's woodworkers who are just known and renowned woodworkers mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Who have mentors. Mm-hmm. Or there, they mentor younger people. Mm-hmm. And they teach them. And what you do is you see that person's work 20 years later after they're done being apprenticed. Mm-hmm. And typically at this point, the mentor has died and that's why you're starting to see their work instead of them just helping, right. The master. Yeah. And I. You go, ah, I can see all of the teachings of your, your master.
Tana:Yeah.
Don:In your work.
Tana:Yeah.
Don:And we don't have that anymore. We don't, we do that in certain things. I'd say martial arts is one that we do it. Like people follow a sensei or a
Tana:Yeah, yeah.
Don:A teacher for a long time and they learn all about them. Yeah. But we don't have that very much in Christianity anymore. So a lot of people's discipleship is reading, studying, listening to a multiplicity of voices. Mm-hmm. And, but we need more people to consolidate that.
Tana:Yeah.
Don:And then pour uniquely into individuals to help them learn, uh, as opposed to, cause that's very daunting to have, to learn across all these things. So that being said, the great Commission is this powerful moment where Jesus is saying, I had a unique gift mm-hmm. given to me. Which was insight into the text. Mm-hmm. And I have trained you, I have discipled you. Mm-hmm. And it's now time. And today is your graduation. Mm. And now your job is to go out and teach everyone these things. And in the midst of that, find people who want to learn everything I taught. Yeah. Then commission them to go and make more disciples that teaches everyone that they come in contact with, but find a unique feud to pour into. Yeah. I think that that's just a really powerful and beautiful thing, and I think in a lot of ways in our attempt to create a sense of ease of participation in our faith, we have lost some of the depth and beauty of some of the higher callings in our faith, which is to discipleship and discipling, um, because we've reduced it to a prayer and an attendance. Yeah. And I think that's robbed us. I think that's why Chris Christianity in the West has become so there I say, uh, neutered. Mm, yeah. Insignificant, yeah. Powerless. Except for when it's angry. Right. And it's because we no longer are taking discipleship serious. We're only concerned about evangelism. Yeah. What are your thoughts?
Tana:I just, uh, I think it's really important that we, uh, understand the difference between evangelism and discipleship. And I think the world would be better off if there was more of an effort to make disciples rather than simply converts.
Don:Yes. Yeah. So what does Jesus say about converts?
Tana:You'll cross the sea to find, make a single convert and turn them into twice the sons of hell you are?
Don:Yeah. Yeah. That's one of my favorites. Yeah. Go Jesus.
Tana:And, and that's honestly, I feel like we're seeing that. Just no, no discipleship, no truly trying to follow Jesus, but just converts and then using that conversion as a weapon.
Don:You nailed it.
Tana:So, uh, thank you for joining us today. If you wanna interact with us more, in between episodes, please check us out on all the socials. You can go to our website, ajffpodcast.com, and there's links there to all the socials and, If you'd like to support what we're doing, check out, buy me a coffee.com/a JFF and you can become a member or just leave us a little token of support. So thank you and we'll see you next time. Bye.