Why do Christians seem to hate social justice? Why does it feel like they'd dislike Jesus if they met him in real life? In this episode, Don and Tana explore the "warnings" against social justice language in churches, starting with Glenn Beck in 2010 and moving to today. Ultimately, they note how racism, economic issues, and the pursuit of power affect how today's evangelicals interpret churches that, to them, are too "woke."
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Why do Christians seem to hate social justice? Why does it feel like they'd dislike Jesus if they met him in real life? In this episode, Don and Tana explore the "warnings" against social justice language in churches, starting with Glenn Beck in 2010 and moving to today. Ultimately, they note how racism, economic issues, and the pursuit of power affect how today's evangelicals interpret churches that, to them, are too "woke."
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What scares the church so badly that feeding your neighbor that might not have enough food, uh, or giving space for people to be healthy is scary?
Tana:hello and welcome to the Ancient Jesus Future Faith Podcast. I am one of your co-hosts, Tana Schiewer and I am joined by Don Schiewer your other co-host. Hello. And today we're gonna talk about social justice and Christianity. This. Is a phrase that has become problematic for, in a number of ways to certain types of Christians. And so we wanted to kind of explore the history of, uh, social justice and the fracture between people who are Christians and believe in social justice and people who are Christians, and think it is a, uh, scary phrase to avoid. So, um, to start us off, actually, Don, can you maybe give a basic definition of what we mean when we say social justice? I, I don't,
Don:no, I don't think I can. Um, I, I, you know, I think everyone has a different opinion because it depends on how you view justice. Sure. I think that if we break it down into its two basic concepts, you have an idea of justice, what it is that I, or a group of people view as. Just outcomes of behavior, interactions, et cetera. And then you have, which by the way, I think is always evolving, right? Mm-hmm. That we look at laws that we have today, typically, although this year we've set a different precedent. Typically more freedoms have been given to people, not fewer. Right. Right. And we would call that justice. Mm-hmm. The, the social part of it, in all honesty, I think is where the tenuous relationship mm-hmm. Comes into play with the church, right? Mm-hmm. But social is this idea that, uh, a collaboration is taking place mm-hmm amongst the residents and those who, uh, make up a community that there is an agreed upon idea, right? Yeah. And that's social, which of course, you know, Uh, leads to discussions around socialism
Tana:Right.
Don:And other things.
Tana:Right, right.
Don:So I think that as far as giving a definition of social justice, it's the justice that is expected by a community. I, I think is, is kind of where it falls, but I don't know that that's how it's always used.
Tana:Yeah, I think I would agree. I would agree with that. And I would also agree with the assessment that the word social probably triggers thoughts of the word socialism, which we know is considered bad by a certain sect of society. Um, so, so let's talk a little bit about your, um, sort of faith journey and the moment when, uh, this became a problematic phrase for some reason. You know, I, I remember clearly when you started to, read more, not just philosophy and, uh, commentary on the Bible, but you also just started studying scripture more carefully and under understanding the context and the history in which it was written. And, your views started to change. And I. What developed out of that was a very justice minded, accepting, loving, caring for others mindset that really marked who you were as a pastor, right? And this, in my opinion, was going great at the church we were at, and lots of people were all about it and all about showing people justice and mercy. And then there was a little bit of a switch one day. What happened?
Don:Glenn Beck.
Tana:I mean, that's the short answer,
Don:So I, it was interesting hearing you tell my story there. I, it's, you know, it's, it's interesting to me is that in the midst of my own personal journey of faith and understanding the text, it became more and more clear to me as time passed that. If I had the ability or the influence or the power to bring about change that benefited somebody with less of those things, mm-hmm. Then it was my obligation, according to scripture, to do something
Tana:right,
Don:and scripture just seemed to handle this as a matter of fact of life.
Tana:Right. Yeah.
Don:That would be, this is this, this is the expectation if you are a person of faith mm-hmm. That if you enter a situation in which someone is in need of food or clothing or are in prison, you know, this might ring true of Matthew 25. Right. Or that you, you had a field that you had enough produce in the field to provide for your household, uh, and that there would be some leftover, that there's always this, it's not even an obligation. It's just a given. Like the first step of a geometry problem, right, is always just a given. You know what you have in front of you and that the Bible treated all of these moments as givens. You have extra produce. You make it available to those who don't have enough produce, right? You have extra food. You make it available to those that don't have enough food. You have extra clothing or resources to get extra clothing. You make it available. This is, and, and this became, I think probably the phrasing I used around was biblical justice, right? Because I didn't see that. Yeah. In the world as a whole, right? Mm-hmm. I didn't see that as being the expectations of the world. Now at that time, I wasn't nearly as political as I am now. And so maybe there was a lot of those conversations happening and I just wasn't privy of them and therefore assumed they weren't happening.
Tana:Sure, yeah. Okay.
Don:Um, but. I realized that there's a, a deep sense of beauty that existed in scripture that was constantly taking a look at what you had and evaluating what others had and trying to make it right and by make it right, I mean, uh, provide for the needs.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:And so this is what I would've just called justice. I would've called it just biblical living. I would've just called it following Jesus. And probably, what is it, 13 years ago now, 14 years ago, Glenn Beck came out and said that if you see the term social justice on your church's website or in a sermon, run. And I had a book on my shelf that had social, it was called like the Social Justice Handbook, and it was put out by our denomination actually at the time.
Tana:Oh, I didn't know that.
Don:And or at least celebrated by the denomination. Mm-hmm. Whether or not it was an official denomination
Tana:Gotcha.
Don:Book. It was a, it was a pastor from within the denomination. That the denomination
Tana:Gotcha.
Don:celebrated, et cetera. And I remember there was someone that came into the church to fix a door. And they weren't part of our community. They were, I mean, they were part of the general community, but they weren't part of the church community. And they saw this book on my shelf and questioned the senior pastor about why I had this book on my shelf that had the term social justice in it. And that was the very first moment that I had any sense that what we were doing in feeding people or providing food for individuals who lacked access to adequate food or provided, you know, opportunities for folks who didn't have the room to network or what have you, that that was the first time that it was ever questioned as a whole. Like, I had people question like, are you gonna evangelize these people and get them to convert? That question was often asked, but not the, not the heart of it, which was that they shouldn't be fed anything or they shouldn't be given food or access to something. Just, you know, if you only give'em food but you don't share the gospel, what good does that do them? Which I think is unhealthy thinking, obviously, but that was the extent of the questioning.
Tana:Hmm.
Don:This was the first time that the, even the very concept of doing justice work
Tana:mm-hmm
Don:was questioned in my experience. And maybe, maybe it had been being questioned for a long time and we just had avoided it. Um, and come through that unscathed. But that would probably be it. Probably about 13 years ago, Glenn Beck came out with that statement and that really became a major point that gained some traction in our church. Yeah. I mean, not enough to stop what we were doing because there was so many people already involved in the justice work we were doing, but enough to make some noise.
Tana:Yeah. Yeah. Uh, the thing I didn't quite remember, uh, I was looking back to, to try to remember when Glenn Beck said this and, you know, all this stuff. The thing I didn't really quite remember was that there was, uh, a Christian backlash to him saying that. And I guess, you know, partly I didn't remember because I was unaware of this happening, you know, until somebody said to you, you know, why do you have that book? You know? Um,
Don:But the Christian backlash to him were the Christians that weren't listening to him, right?
Tana:Yes.
Don:So the, the Christians that were already, um, deeply embedded in conservative radio right, weren't questioning it. Right. It was the people like myself, who were just sideswiped by all of a sudden we have this political commentary coming out that in some way liberal ideations are taking place in the church because of this phrase.
Tana:Yeah. Yeah. So it was like, um, Jim Wallis from Sojourners,
Don:which I'm pretty certain Jim Wallis does not listen to Glenn Beck.
Tana:Right, right. And I, and you know, looking back on this, I have a feeling some of it was precipitated by, uh, Jeremiah Wright the pastor that was the pastor of Obama's church.
Don:Mm-hmm.
Tana:And so it was a backlash to Obama, like, well, he can't possibly be a Christian. Well, look, nope, he not, he isn't actually, because look at the. What's happening in this church that's not Christian. You know, it was very much a no true Scotsman kind of a thing. And so it became, um, rather than people having a difference of opinion on what other,
Don:I think we should investigate what the, the church that Trump has attended his whole life. Oh wait, that's probably gonna be complicated.
Tana:Yeah. Probably. Um, But, uh, yeah, I think it was like a, well, how dare Democrats act religious kind of a thing, you know? Sure. Um, as if the right had the monopoly on Christianity.
Don:Yeah. Do you remember, uh, at the time of Obama, uh, during that presidential, uh, cycle when the election was happening and he was running and someone from the church asked to post, put up a poster, uh, for the election that was a, an unbiased poster, uh, that they wanted to put up.
Tana:Oh, you're talking about our church?
Don:Yes.
Tana:Okay. Sorry. I was stuck on Obama's church for some reason,
Don:and they, they approached me and said, Hey, we'd like to put up this poster. And I looked and it was put out by James Dobson and focus on the family.
Tana:Oh, interesting.
Don:And I said, this is not unbiased. This isn't just a factual. They're like, but it's right. And I was like, I mean, technically it's right, right? And it's right leaning. But you know, I said to him, I said, no, I don't think we should put up, and I forget what exactly he said, and I made the comment, I'd probably be voting for Obama. And there was a small explosion that took place within that Bible study of all of these folks who couldn't even fathom that there would be a person of faith that would vote for Obama. And for them, they viewed this very, um, biased, uh, poster as being factual
Tana:Sure.
Don:As opposed to being, you know, misleading.
Tana:Right.
Don:And so I think, honestly, I. I would tie all of these really together in a lot of ways. Right?
Tana:Sure. Yeah.
Don:The social justice thing as you, and kind of pulling back to what you were saying about kind of a reaction to Obama's election, and I really feel like having a black man in office
Tana:mm-hmm
Don:was, is evangelicals lost their damn minds.
Tana:Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Don:Um, and, and I think they would deny that it was because he was black,
Tana:of course.
Don:And, but yeah. So the social justice piece, you know, Glenn Beck, he introduced that concept and, and I would say that that concept has just continued. Yeah. And we're, we're still dealing with it. It's just changed its language. Right? Absolutely. And so today we use the term woke. Right? Right. And the church is using this term, woke in the same way. I would argue that it used Glenn Beck used social justice. Right. So Tana, what is it that you think is so terrifying to the church 13 years ago? A social justice or today with, uh, using the word woke? What, what, what scares the church so badly that feeding your neighbor that might not have enough food, uh, or giving space for people to be healthy is scary?
Tana:I don't think a lot of people would admit the more nefarious motivations there, like racism, um, other types of bigotry like, uh, queerphobia, um,
Don:sure.
Tana:You know, things like that. I think that a lot of that is at the root of it, and things that feel like they're outside of the accepted ways that we've been doing things kind of a deal. It's scary cuz it's, it's, uh, unsettling their, you know, viewpoint of the world. I think also the entrance of, right wing politics into religion is what caused a lot of this to amplify over the years. Um, and so, certain political beliefs have gotten wrapped up in with religious beliefs and people can't like, untangle them now.
Don:Sure.
Tana:You know, so, um, Yeah. It's like, well, I as a Christian believe in, helping the poor, but I'll do it. I don't want the government doing it.
Don:Yeah.
Tana:That, you know what I'm saying?
Don:I, yeah. I think there's a lot of that. I think there's another piece too, and I'm gonna ask you a question to see if maybe we can kind of dig into it together. Is that, do you remember early on when we were, when we had started doing justice work back in, I mean, I think probably 2002, 2003. We really kind of, a lot of it started, yeah, a lot more of it started, at least for us.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:Do you remember what the guardrails were in doing those things within the church?
Tana:The guardrails? Are you talking about like church capital C or the church we were attending?
Don:I, I think they went hand in hand. But short Church, capital C.
Tana:Oh my gosh.
Don:What would people warn you if you gave someone$5?
Tana:Oh oh, right. That they're just gonna waste it on drugs or alcohol?
Don:Right. So when we first started doing justice work, the biggest thing we came up against was becoming the we. We had to be the moral compass.
Tana:Oh, that's right. Yeah. Yeah.
Don:Right. And so we only gave to people, and I think we actually discussed, we touched on this a little bit back in our uh, holiday guide for giving.
Tana:Oh yeah. Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm.
Don:But I think early on, a lot of what people would. A lot of people's concerns were, well, if you get that person$5, they're just gonna go spend it on alcohol.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:Do you remember that?
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:And I think other people would do the thing where, well, that's great, but if they don't have salvation, it doesn't matter. Yeah. So I think a lot of the guardrails in the church where it's okay to feed people, but only the right people.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:It's okay to take care of the needs of people, but only if you ensured they were gonna use those things. In the proper way. Right? It's okay to, uh, do work to bring about awareness of social problems or abject poverty, et cetera, as long as X, Y, and Z. So there was always a an asterisk. Yeah. Everything we did had an asterisk and it was basically, We had to pass, and I don't think anyone would've said this at the time, right? In early two thousands, but we had to pass it through the collective wisdom of affluent white suburbanites
Tana:Yes.
Don:as to whether or not a person was deserving
Tana:Yes.
Don:of the help that we were offering. This to me is, is kind of the key to why everyone really. Has become offended by the idea of social justice. Hmm. Because I would argue that what, what, what has transpired is over the years people said no, even if someone uses that money, To get drunk or uses that food, turns around and sells it. Or a bicycle. That was a big one, right? Like they're just gonna sell the bike. And I was like, great. We created an economic system.
Tana:Right, right.
Don:Which really would make everyone mad. I'm like, so, so what? So they sold the bike and Yeah. So someone else got a bike for a price that they agreed to. They received money that they didn't have in their pocket before. And uh, wow. Awesome.
Tana:Yeah.
Don:We created a business. Right. Like trickle down economics. No. Right. I'm just joking about that. But it's, it's, but it was, our mindset was, you know, even when, do you remember what we would say if someone said, what if they're gonna spend it on alcohol?
Tana:No,
Don:I would say So you don't binge watch Netflix?
Tana:Oh, yes. Yes. I do remember that.
Don:Like we all medicate, like every person medicates. Yeah. And if you are living on the streets under a bridge, you wanna buy a beer to get through the night? Mm-hmm.
Tana:How many people just in middle class buy beer to get through the night?
Don:I'm literally drinking a beer right now.
Tana:Right.
Don:While doing this, while recording this podcast.
Tana:Right.
Don:But we all medicate.
Tana:Yeah.
Don:Every person medicates. And not just with the proper pharmaceuticals.
Tana:Right.
Don:And because of that, we, we don't get the right, we don't have the right to say, I get to medicate and I get to medicate the way I feel is best for me. But you, yeah. I don't trust your decision making. I don't trust your behavior. Yeah. I think when social justice started coming in or a, a younger generation, millennials, uh, late Gen Xers
Tana:mm-hmm.
Don:Younger Gen Xers, however, I don't even know how you say that term, but I. Uh, gen Xers that were closer to the millennial age group.
Tana:Right, right.
Don:Yeah. That a lot more people started saying, no, they just deserve to have food. Right. No, they just deserve to have shelter. No, they just deserve, like they have, like they're a human being.
Tana:Mm-hmm. Right.
Don:And I even think around the time of Glen Beck, and I might be wrong completely on my timeline, there was a big deal going on in Florida where they were going to start drug testing.
Tana:Oh yes. For, um, food benefits and Yes. Um, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Don:And I remember our community, our faith community as a church, that there was a lot of people that were very supportive of that. Yeah. And I just said, what happens if a parent is an addict and they have a child?
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:Do we withhold the food from the child?
Tana:Right.
Don:And they're like, well, they shouldn't have had a kid. Okay.
Tana:Wow.
Don:Right. But, but here's the thing again. Yeah. But you are against abortion rights. So you forced them to have a kid. Right. And uh, and even whether you think that they shouldn't have or not, doesn't matter now because you forced them to have the child. Right. And now you're saying, but now that that child's born, I demanded the child be born. But now that the child's born Yeah. It's their, it's on them and the parents shouldn't have had the child. And pointing out some of these things is just not something the church had ever questioned before.
Tana:Yeah. Yeah. And because of that, as, as things became more and more politicized, and as you mentioned, you know, the, the church became more embedded in the right wing, uh, you know, politics. Mm-hmm.
Don:It became more and more of pick yourself up by the bootstrap. Mm-hmm. Which became, if you remember, early on, no one was making that argument to us as we were doing things to provide food, et cetera, but pretty quickly after a period of time, it was like, shouldn't people just like fix themselves if people would just fix themselves.
Tana:Right.
Don:You know, and I would say, you know, that's like saying, Jesus, why don't you, uh, take yourself down off the cross and, uh, survive this. Right. Like, You know, uh, physician heal thyself, right? All biblical phrases that we would hold dear and be like, look at Jesus. He didn't do these things right? Yeah. But yet we would imply that others had to do these things.
Tana:I, I think what's what's interesting about a lot of these things is, is, um, first of all, To go back to the Glen Beck thing, he said, look for the phrases, social justice or economic justice. He mentioned both of those phrases.
Don:He did. Yeah.
Tana:Which I think is extremely interesting because what I think all this that you're describing, um, was a lot more economic arguments coming into helping people than we had seen before. So like that Florida drug testing thing.
Don:Mm-hmm.
Tana:I remember seeing lots of people, like on social media or people just in conversation saying, well, it's just not the best use of our resources to give, um, this stuff assistance to somebody on drugs. And so, you know, you wanna make sure it's getting, it's getting to everybody, you know?
Don:Sure.
Tana:And so it was almost like there were this benevolent argument and then when they did the study and found out that it actually cost more to drug test people, these
Don:It was only like 1%.
Tana:Yeah. Cause it was such a tiny, I don't even think it was one, it was such like a tiny percentage of people who actually tested positive for drugs. Um, it cost them way more to do this program than to just feed everybody.
Don:Correct.
Tana:And I, when that came out, and I mentioned that to some of those same people, they were like, they should still do it. Because it's not right. And I'm like, but your, your whole argument to me before was it was an economic thing.
Don:Great. Yes. So that's perfect. Good segue.
Tana:Thanks.
Don:So then, what was it?
Tana:They're not deserving. That was like, I think it's that they're not deserving and being poor started to become a moral failing.
Don:Yeah. I don't need anything started but be but got maybe more
Tana:fair
Don:mainstream. Had more mainstream, uh, acceptance to that idea.
Tana:Yeah. That it was, it was a moral failing rather than a systemic failing. And I honestly think that a lot of the reason why a lot of people will clinging to that idea is because it's more palatable, because it relieves them of responsibility of like, oh, I participate in the system, or maybe I even perpetuate this system. It also allows em
Don:to say, that's their concern. Not, not that they're racist, just just like homophobic or what have you.
Tana:Wash their hands of it.
Don:Yeah. Right. So how then would you say this relates to woke?
Tana:Well, I think it's like what you said earlier, it's just a different, it's, it's the phrase,
Don:but it's not about economics anymore.
Tana:Oh yeah. Now it's the culture wars
Don:and Right. It's about race. Yeah. Gender and a sexuality.
Tana:But, but I kind of, Think it's still about economics. I think they're just hiding it better. I, I mean, everything is about the children supposedly, and I, I just think that's a cover. Um, like Glen Beck, when I was looking up the original thing from Glen Beck from like 2010, I saw that he had a more recent thing in 2022 about how woke infiltrated the church. And I was like, oh, this was probably just a continuation, continu Continu continuation of what he did, what he said before, and he had, he had a guest on who was a, a pastor, A rev, a reverend from Zambia named Voddie Baucham.
Don:Okay. Hold on. Hold on. Wait, wait. Timeout. Yeah.
Tana:What.
Don:Um, I glanced over at your notes and just in the middle of the paper there's one sentence.
Tana:I'm not reading it. I was mad.
Don:I will, I will.
Tana:I was, I was yelling.
Don:So I want, I want you all to know the righteous indignation of Tana because right in the middle of the page, as I look over it just says he is a dick. Um, I actually think that sums it up quite nicely, but go ahead on with your more, uh,
Tana:I yelled a lot at. YouTube yesterday. Um, so this, uh, Voddie Baucham was saying that we are experiencing judgment right now, you know,
Don:as Christians or as
Tana:Yeah. For from God.
Don:Um, oh, okay. So the world
Tana:Yes, the world is
Don:not just Christians. Okay.
Tana:Yeah. Um, and then, Uh, they talked about how the Obergefell decision that allowed same sex marriage, um, they said, oh, you know, back then we were, we were told we were being too alarmist about the slippery slope, but the slippery slope has happened and there's, and they were just making stuff up and saying like, uh, well, liberals are okay with pedophilia. And there's just so, like, they were acting as if like, um, every liberal was just like,"cool, yeah. Abuse kids, no problem." And also that every single LGBTQ+ individual was a pedophile, and it was just this awful, and I think that's what we see going on with all these conversations is like, like all the, the trans stuff, all the drag queen stuff, all this stuff is like, but what about the children? But if they actually cared about children, then they would do something about gun control and they would do something about a lot of other things. And so to me it's, again, it's another like red herring, like we are concerned about children, but what it actually is, is we don't like this. It makes us uncomfortable. It, it's not in our norm.
Don:Well, and I think some of this is a loss of power.
Tana:Absolutely.
Don:Because the, the church for so long, Had all the power in the US right? And the church had so much influence, and as the church started losing more and more influence, it was necessary to create the, uh, it wasn't the, uh, the religious right. What was it at the time? Um, Oh my gosh. When they, they introduced the concept of abortion being a religious thing. It was the moral majority.
Tana:Oh, the moral majority, yes.
Don:Right. And so this moral majority becomes a thing because the church had begun to lose its grip of power. Yeah. And I think what happens, so can you think of an instance? I can think of one for myself. Speeding.
Tana:Okay.
Don:For the most part, I don't Speed. Mm-hmm. Right. But if we're traveling back to Pennsylvania to visit your family, and it's a four 50 mile trip.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:I speed.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:But I almost have a view of myself. Not almost. I do, I have a view of myself that it's okay that I speed that Don Schiewer speeds. Yeah, because I, I pay attention. You're in control. I understand. I, I am better than the average driver, and I am capable of controlling the car better than the average person. And since I cycle, I bicycle so many places. I'm very aware of pedestrians and so I. I, I am the loophole. Right, right.
Tana:You're the exception.
Don:So tell me about you being an exception because I, I'm certain you, you view yourself as an exception someplace.
Tana:Never. I'm, I'm the most humble person you'll ever meet.
Don:That might be an exception right there.
Tana:Uh, I'm sure I do. Uh, I can't think of one off the top of my head.
Don:So I think it's something that we all do, right? It's that we are more likely to trust ourself than someone else. I, I mean, that seems like a very, very simple idea.
Tana:Yeah.
Don:Right. Like that if it came down to someone, it's like, let me do it because I know I'll do it. Right. Yeah. Type thing. Right?
Tana:Yeah.
Don:And I think this is what the church went through and is going through.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:Like we get to, we have the corner on the market for morality, and we know better than the rest of the world. About morality. Yeah. And now all of a sudden the rest of the world is saying, hey, these are, these are spaces in which we need to do better with morality.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:And the church
Tana:mm-hmm.
Don:Has been exposed as not being the leader of morality. Yeah. Right. Whether it is all the scandals that happen constantly of sexual coverups, of indiscretions in the churches, all these things that are just perpetuated, constantly by the church. We see it in the news, we see it everywhere all the time. And the church has lost its stance. And I would argue it never deserved probably to have the stance.
Tana:Yeah.
Don:Maybe, right?
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:Maybe there was a time, I don't know.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:But that- now the church is no longer this beacon of righteousness.
Tana:Right?
Don:And as it scrambles to reclaim it.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:It is reclaiming it by villainizing all the other things that were dis, that they had not agreed to. Mm-hmm. Right?
Tana:Yeah.
Don:And so whether it's. CRT. Right. Critical race theory, like, which is not being taught in schools. Right. And, uh,
Tana:it's a law theory.
Don:And even if some le some version of that is being taught in schools, it's still not being taught in the way that is being, uh, discussed or argued that it is being, that it's happening, uh, whether it's lgbtq things, right. Uh, it's gender equality, it's gender acknowledgement, right? These things in general are now, the church is basically having the spotlight on them of how they have failed to actually be the beacon of light in the world, and the church has, instead of accepting the rebuke of society, has doubled down.
Tana:Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes it's hard for me to remember, uh, being in that place where you think only Christians can be moral. I don't know that I ever fully believed that, like,
Don:but it was definitely all around us. But it was, it was especially in the nineties, eighties, nineties.
Tana:Yeah. And because of how people spoke about it around me, um, I'm sure there was a time that like I met an atheist and was surprised that they were nice and kind, you know?
Don:Mm-hmm.
Tana:Um, but I do, one thing I do remember clearly is, uh, working in an office where the one person was an atheist and was like the super nicest person ever and, um, very kind and generous and uh, great all around. And I remember somebody at our church saying something like,"Well, he is going to hell." I remember we were talking about like kindness and everything, and I mentioned him and they're like,"well, is he Christian?" I'm like, no. And they're like,"well, he is going to hell." And I'm like, how, how? That it, how, you know? And that was, that was like a, a little break for me too. I mean in the, you know, of, of like just declaring that he's going to hell j just because of that.
Don:It was the culmination of that thinking that I would argue led to Rob Bell's, you know, book that kind of put him on the map, love wins, right?
Tana:Yeah. Yeah.
Don:Is that, that argument that, uh, Gandhi, a lot of Christians would say, Gandhi is burning in hell. Right? And how could that possibly be, right?
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:And I, I think so. I. A lot of younger people. Again, this is where I go to the younger Gen X and I, I mean just Gen X in general I think becomes kind of that shifting, that crossroads, um, of thinking that starts to be more open to the idea that maybe there is goodness out there in the world that is not draped in, uh, the cross, right. Or the blood of Jesus. Right. And. And it's interesting to me because when we look at these things, we see the exceptions happening all over in the church.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:Right? So like whoever the guy is that Margie Taylor Green is dating now who did, uh, dressed up like a woman several different times.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:Live on television. Mm-hmm. Well, he's the exception, right? Or, uh, what is it? Is it the Log Cabin Republicans?
Tana:Maybe
Don:that are gay.
Tana:Yes.
Don:Um, yes. Yeah. Yeah. So the log Cabin Republicans who are gay, but they're the exception. Right. Uh, or that you have, uh, different Republican candidate or candidates or, uh, politicians or just, you know, people that identify within the Republican party who are African American or people of color.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:And well, they're the exception.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:And so we do all these things where we imagine that we can do it. Right. But it's because we are exceptional.
Tana:Yeah. Yeah. And you know, and I wonder how that, it's weird to say that that translates to when like, you know, pastors are found to be guilty of, uh, child abuse or sexual abuse or both. Um, like, uh,
Don:well then we just blame the devil.
Tana:Well, I. But there's this weird circling of the wagons, like, like Matt Walsh was like supported Josh Dugger. But then like makes accusations against trans people without any evidence whatsoever that there are pedophiles, you know?
Don:Mm-hmm.
Tana:Um, and like that dude was actually a pedophile. Like, you know, like it was like for real. Um, and there's all these times. I mean, there's been so many documentaries lately, right? About like, uh, the Duggars and, um, the people behind, uh, Hillsong and there's just constantly, uh, pastors being exposed. And then once somebody digs into it, like, oh yeah, this pastor has been sexually abusing people for years. And the leadership found, like, found out about it multiple occasions and covered it up and, and
Don:that's because they would argue the greater
good.
Tana:But that's so
Don:I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying that's right. That's the mindset, right? Is that this church, look at all the good this church has done. Look at all the people who have come to faith because of this church. Are we really going to throw all of that away because this person messed up?
Tana:But, but the thing that drives, like I. With that kind of mentality is then that they will go and preach about against it.
Don:Of course.
Tana:With no sense of, you know, and
Don:a hundred percent, yeah.
Tana:So it's like, how can you allow it to happen and then tell other people that, you know, their, their life is sinful because they had sex before they got married or you know, whatever.
Don:But again, I think this comes right back to the exceptionalism, right? Yeah. Is that we can handle it. Right. We will. Address it privately. We will take care of it privately. We will, right? We will handle it in house and it will be fine, right? Because we are uniquely equipped and I think a lot of times they would say by God to sure handle such a situation, or this is just God. Testing us, or this is the devil attacking us and it's so therefore it can't be true. And it just, we, the church has allowed itself to be able to convince itself
Tana:mm-hmm.
Don:That any accusation, any, uh, pointing out of wrongdoing
Tana:mm-hmm.
Don:Is because they are doing so much good.
Tana:Yes, absolutely. And then I think the other side of that, Um, and this kind of goes towards the social justice piece, is, uh, accusations and trying to hold people accountable and stuff like that are also seen as divisive. And so the idea is that you're just supposed to let the people in power do what they please. And if you try to stand up for an oppressed person in any way, you are the troublemaker.
Don:Yes.
Tana:You're the person in the wrong. And I, I mean, it really does come back to, I think, the exceptionalism, but also authoritarianism. Like, like it's this.
Don:I think you can only be authoritarian if you think you're exceptional.
Tana:That's, uh, fair. Um, and, but I, but there's, yeah, there's other, the, but the people are like, well, that's, that's the pastor, that's the person in power. That's the person who is wonderful. And they can do no wrong. And it's just, yeah. So I think this, backlash, not backlash, that's not the right word. All of these attacks on different oppressed populations now and this increased like war against woke and all that stuff is a, yeah. They see their power slipping away and they need to keep it.
Don:And when you're exception- when you view yourself as exceptional, You can convince yourself that this is a David Bathsheba moment.
Tana:Interesting
Don:that, uh, I'm exceptional. Like David was exceptional, and yes, David did something horrendous. But look at what David became and imagine if we would've just put David to death. Right, and so I think that there's a mindset whether they they go there or not. Specific to that, right, is that exceptionalism is it comes out right like that. What would've happened if we would've put David to death instead of letting him carry on as king and lead Israel? My argument would be the Bible would just be a little bit different.
Tana:Right.
Don:Right. Like, I don't, I don't know that it brings the whole thing down, but because we can't imagine any other way, and we believe that God ordained every single step of history.
Tana:Yeah, yeah.
Don:Then David had to do that.
Tana:Right.
Don:And then it becomes this mindset of, well, we're, we're just having our David Bathsheba moment. Right.
Tana:But you know, people, that's a dis that's a descriptive story. It's not prescriptive.
Don:Well, again, but, but this is what I say is actually a flaw in Christendom.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:And I would say probably not as much in progressive Christianity, but
Tana:still to a degree
Don:still, still active, is reading these stories of miraculous things, uhhuh these exceptional stories in the Bible and making them ordinary, right? Like when I hear someone say, You know, I'm having a Daniel in the Lions Day- Den moment, and I'm like, you had a bad day at work. Like, like you had a bad day at work. You are not Daniel in the lion's.
Tana:You don't know. Maybe they were actually cornered by lions on the way home.
Don:Even so you're still not, the government hasn't publicly ex attempted to execute you, right? Yeah. Right. Like so. No. Yeah. You still aren't. Right. Even if you run into a pack of lions, this is not your Daniel moment.
Tana:Yeah. I think that that's really interesting cuz that I think that the, uh, that speaks to the whole like Satan's crouching at every door kind of thing.
Don:Yeah. Like Satan even knows my fricking name, right?
Tana:Like, Oh, I ordered rye bread and they gave me sourdough Satan. Like, it's just, there is this, like this weird thing where it's like, yeah, these like tiny moments are like, right, brought to be evil If,
Don:if satan doesn't have the Omnis. By the way, I don't even know that God has the Omnis. I don't omnis, I don't know what I feel about that. But if I would say most of Christendom does not believe that the Satan has any Omni.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:So not omnipresent. Not omniscient.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:So therefore doesn't know everything and isn't present everywhere at the same time. But yet he's waiting for Don right outside my door.
Tana:Right.
Don:Come on. Yeah.
Tana:Right. Well, probably.
Don:I mean, so it's, it's this absurdity, but we're, it's so part of our
Tana:Yeah.
Don:story it's a part of how we're, we're raised and we're taught to think in, in the church, particularly evangelical Protestant churches, is this idea that the Satan is just waiting to get hold of you.
Tana:Yeah. And it's, that's another, that's the spiritual aspect of the tools of fear that people are using.
Don:Yep. And you know, I've heard, and you've probably have heard this too, you know, sheep in, uh, a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Tana:Yes.
Don:Right. And so a lot of times good things that the world is doing
Tana:mm-hmm.
Don:Because the church hasn't come up with it.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:The church will be like, just, no, it's probably a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:Right. It looks good, but it's probably going to be terrible.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:And, but that's what we've done in order to, and this is the irony to me to, because we become convinced, that's how we preserve the faith, that if we're not smart, the wolves are gonna infiltrate. The irony is, they have.
Tana:Mm-hmm. We just disagree on who the wolves are.
Don:The wolves have penetrated or infiltrated. And it's because the wolves walk in, in wolf's closing, but are like warning about the rest of the wolves that are coming. Just so you know, all these wolves are gonna be coming and the wolf then wanders around among the sheep eating one or two.
Tana:But I'm the exceptional wolf!
Don:And and only, and honestly there's a hundred sheep and I only eat one or two. One or two. But those sheep or those wolves out there on the perimeter, they're going to eat all of you. And so yes, I might, I might eat one or two every now and then. Yeah. But aren't you grateful that you have me here to tell you about? And I think Donald Trump is that exact thing, right? Oh yeah. Is that he, is that wolf in sheep's clothing and I don't even think he's bothered to wear sheep's clothing. No. And he's just like, I'm gonna stand in the midst of you. I'm going to slowly devour you.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:And while I'm doing it, I'm gonna make you thank me that I'm keeping the rest of the wolves at bay. And you go"yeah. I wish he didn't say some of the things he said. And yeah, he's kind of gross up when he are towards women, but. You know, he does a really good job at pointing out all the dangers of the other wolves."
Tana:Yeah. And I think the more extremist, um, elements of that line of thinking, I. Are so concerning because you know, I just saw a thing the other day where people were interviewing Trump supporters and the one guy was going on and on about how much he loved God and Trump. And then, you know, the guy was asking a bunch of questions about the indictments and all this stuff, and then said, is there anything Trump could do to lose your vote? And the guy was like, no, I don't think so. And he was like, what if he was on the steps of the White House and murdered someone and like right in front of everybody? And he was like,"No, I'd still vote for him."
Don:Yeah. I saw that interview and then that ended the interview. Yeah. And the guy just walks away. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, but this is the thing, right? Is that we would rather, what is it, you know, uh, the, the enemy, you know, versus the enemy you don't know.
Tana:Yeah.
Don:And, and we've, we've twisted that, right? And we've made it, um, that it's, it's better.
Tana:Right.
Don:To have someone like that in our midst Right. Than it is to have someone on the outside like that and we can even convince ourselves then that God sent us that person.
Tana:Yeah.
Don:Right. So we're, we're almost out of time. Hmm. We're getting close. Okay. So the one thing I would, I don't want us to do. What should it be?
Tana:What should what be?
Don:Instead of being afraid of social justice
Tana:mm-hmm.
Don:And afraid of woke.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:What, what should the faithful be about?
Tana:You know, um,
Don:I, and what's a biblical understanding of that?
Tana:I actually think that would be an excellent thing to explore in multiple podcast episodes, which we have in a little bit in past episodes. But, um, I wish more people would actually study the Bible instead of listening to bombastic preachers. Um, cuz there have been lots of preachers who have, uh, kind of changed their ways to protect their jobs. And lots of preachers who have lost their jobs because they weren't trumpy enough for their congregation. I don't think, I think there's a lot of pastors who actually don't know scripture very well, and they wanna keep their power and so they're preaching fearful things and, um, hateful things. And, um, I think I wish people would do a little bit more investigating. You know, a little more Bible study and start to actually see like you actually read who Jesus was and it's so in incongruent with the face we see of evangelicalism today, like the, the, the thing we see the most on the news and, you know, things like that.
Don:Yeah, I, I would, I would say, obviously I agree with you. I think the church needs to study the Hebrew Bible more.
Tana:Yeah. Yes, yes.
Don:Uh, give Paul a break. He's exhausted, gosh. From you just flipping through his pages constantly.
Tana:Yes. Give Paul a break. Leave him alone.
Don:Uh, let's turn to some gospels and let's turn to some of Torah. Right? Yeah. The thing that I often point out in, in these conversations is that, When the Bible calls us to do justice
Tana:mm-hmm.
Don:It calls us to do it without any bias.
Tana:Right, right.
Don:Leave the corners of your field. Right. For who?
Tana:Anyone.
Don:Anyone. Yeah. Whoever passes by and needs some food. Oh, but what if, what if they actually are? Are going to turn around and sell that food and uh, and use it for something nefarious, well, that's on them. So you leave the, leave the corners of your field for the poor and the sojourner, doesn't matter who they are, don't even matter if they're an enemy to the people of Israel. You leave the corners of your field. You see someone who is hungry, you don't say, how'd you end up hungry? And then I'll determine whether or not you deserve food, or let me make sure you live in my zip code, or let me make sure you haven't gotten food from someone else. It doesn't have that. It's just you feed them. Yeah. Right. And even when we read passages like in, uh, Leviticus 19, where it talks about loving your neighbor as yourself. It talks about leaving the corners of the field there, but it also talks about ensuring that the people who lack power, that their voice is still heard.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:And make sure that someone who is affluent gets a fair trial too.
Tana:Right.
Don:Right. That it, it, the Bible does an amazing job. At removing bias from the decision making that comes into play for many of our modern society. And I'm, I'm not even saying just conservative Christianity. I think we all have a bias when it comes to helping someone.
Tana:Yeah.
Don:And we determine their worthiness. Yeah. And the Bible is like, if you have extra food and someone doesn't have enough, If you'd consider yourself a participant amongst the faithful, you give your food. Yeah. And listen, none of us do that perfectly.
Tana:Sure.
Don:Um, you know, the Bible actually implies that if you have a spare coat and your neighbor doesn't have a coat that it implies, I believe it's in Malachi, or Micah. One of the M profits that it implies that you're stealing from them.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:If you don't offer them your spare coat.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:That's some powerful stuff.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:And that's some, that's some justice effort that we are called to. And instead what we have done is tried to determine who is worthy of our extra coat, who is worthy of the, the, the, the extra food in our cabinets or the extra money that we have, the affluence, the, the power, who is worthy of those things. And we always assume that we are, we're the best decision makers.
Tana:Yeah.
Don:And we don't take into account people's circumstances, circumstances or situations. And we do the same, not just in economic situations.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:But we do the same in relational situations.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:Judging who is deserving to experience love. Yeah. Determining who is deserving of experiencing companionship and grace and who is, yeah. It just goes on and on and it's not biblical.
Tana:Yeah.
Don:And if you're a listener and you think. That you can make a case against what we said today. I'd love to have you on. Yeah, I'd love to. I'd love to discuss it with you.
Tana:Yeah. I think the, my last piece that I think people should do is look at the world through a lens of, you know, biblical understanding. Um, a, a, a faith lens rather than a political lens. I think too many people are putting their, putting their political lens on to look at their religion rather than the other way around. And I know I've been guilty of that at times. I get too, too wrapped up in, um, maybe a liberal source of news and, you know, I get fired up and all that stuff. But my political affiliation changed after I started reading the Bible more. So my view of what we should do and my, my political affiliation and, and, and any other, you know, anything that is considered quote unquote political, which feels like everything these days, my view of that is filtered through faith, through the bible, through, you know, and I would just encourage more people to do that because I think sometimes it feels like you're going against these beliefs. These, you know, that are in you because of how you were raised and your political stance and, and who you listen to and everything, and, and that's becoming the louder voice than faith, God.
Don:Agreed.
Tana:Yeah. So final thoughts. All right. Well, Thank you all for joining us today. Uh, if you're interested in talking more about this, like Don said, reach out. We would love to chat with people. I think this is really important, so would love to hear from you. Would also love to hear from you if you have any suggested topics you'd like to hear us talk about. So, uh, yeah. So you can reach us on all the socials for that, or you can email us at info@ajffpodcast.com. You can find more about the podcast at ajffpodcast.com. You can support us at buymeacoffee.com/ajff and I think that's about it. We'll see you next time. Thanks.
Don:Go be woke. Bye.