Do Christians need the church? What should the church be today? Don and Tana discuss the status of the Church in the U.S., what it is, what it isn't, and what it could be.
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do we need church is the right question, but I think we think of it in the wrong way.
Tana:Okay.
Don:That's the question that the church should be asking, right, right. And the church should be asking that. And then saying, what should we be doing as a church to make a church feel like a necessary or important part of our community's life?
Tana:Hello and welcome to the Ancient Jesus Future Faith Podcast. I am one of the co hosts on your journey today, Tana Schiewer and I'm here with my other co host, Don Schiewer hey,
Don:you'd think into season three, Tana that, um, the intro part would be,
Tana:it is, it never gets easier. I feel awkward every single time.
Don:It doesn't show. It doesn't show.
Tana:I'm sure. I'm, I'm just an old pro at this now. And, uh, Sarah is still on break. So, um, hi Sarah. We miss you anyway. Um, so today we're going to talk about church.
Don:Take me to church.
Tana:Well, actually we're talking about sort of the opposite, aren't we? Do we need church?
Don:Yeah, I mean, I guess the the conversation is you know yet to be determined But yeah, we are we are gonna have to have a I think that's where a lot of people are right now. There's a lot of folks who in their deconstruction process have left the church that they had been attending and now are either they would say, it's kind of nice just having my Sundays
Tana:right. Yeah.
Don:And so I don't know that I want to go to church again, or the, the, the fear, the effort to actually, um, find a church is overwhelming. And then on top of all that, is it even something that is necessary and or beneficial to my household?
Tana:Well, and I think a lot of people are also, um, there's a lot of people who are recovering from church hurt, so it is, you know, whether they, uh, were explicitly told they weren't welcome at the church or, um, on a more extreme end, end, uh, experienced abuse in the church or just, you know, people were kind of mean or what, you know, a really large range of hurt and or trauma that can come from a church context. And so I think some people are like, why, why do I need it? Why do I need to be in that environment? Right. Yeah. So yeah. Um, do we need church Don?
Don:That's, that's just, that's the question. That's where we're jumping in?
Tana:I mean, we don't have to start there. I mean, I think that's the, the, the subject we wanted to discuss today. I think, um, I guess maybe a good place to start would be, is there a biblical imperative to go to church?
Don:No, but there is to go to the temple.
Tana:Okay, can you please elaborate?
Don:The, the text, one of the things that we make a mistake with is conflating the temple with the church. The synagogue would have been, uh, the, the ancient comparison to the church, not the temple. So there's, so there's all kinds of passages that talks about, uh, going up to the temple for different feasts and for different holidays. But even attending the temple was only a few times a year during the Ascension feasts. And so even then... Built into the biblical calendar is almost the see and ear effect, except it wasn't Christmas and Easter. It was like Passover and, uh, the high holy days of Rosh Hashanah. Those types of holidays were the days that you would, regardless of where you were in the world, and then obviously at that time the world was a much smaller place, at least to Israel. Sure. You would drop what you were doing and you would go to the temple. And so you would have these large masses of people moving from the Diaspora, which is the displacement or the distribution of the Jews into the different areas around the world. And you would have all of the Diaspora returning to Jerusalem to go up to the Temple. And so we see that, uh, in fact, that's when a census was typically held was during that time because it would, this is when people were returning to land that they owned or back to, you know, family, maybe they were out, you know, whatever it might be, the reasons that they're part of the diaspora, people returning back.
Tana:And isn't that, uh, part of the story of why Jesus was born in Nazareth?
Don:There's, there's debates about the historicity of the census and everything, but, uh, so. Maybe? Yeah, I mean, maybe. Okay. But it has nothing to do with whether or not we should go to church, so.
Tana:Right. Okay, so you're making a distinction between church and temple.
Don:And actually I'm more so making a distinction between temple and synagogue.
Tana:Right.
Don:And that the church is more equivalent to the synagogue than it is to the temple. We read things in the, in the Text that has, that mentions like the house of God, and I hate to break it to folks, but your church is not the house of God. Your church is the equivalent of a synagogue, which was the local gathering place for worship.
Tana:Okay.
Don:Right. So there's just a significant difference. One is God's house and one is the place in which God's people come together regularly in order to care for one another, care for the community, make sure people have what they need, uh, learn more about God and they do that regularly. Um, so the church or the synagogue in first century was more like a community center, a safe place for people to come, particularly under Roman oppression, it, it had very little to do... there was no worship band. Uh, there were no plastic plants on the front stage, uh,
Tana:or American flags?
Don:Definitely no American flags. So, so what we have now is. would be, it's anachronistic to imagine that something even remotely similar to that existed at the time of Jesus.
Tana:Okay. So, and I don't know if you, um, if you know the answer to this or not, but would that kind of how you're describing synagogue back then be what synagogue is now for the Jewish people?
Don:I wouldn't want to speak on that just because I don't know how. Uh, the Jewish community feels about synagogue, uh, and really at the end of the day, the main thing is, is really how you feel about it, how it, what it, what the value is to you and your community is what makes something, the synagogue or the church similar or different than what was, uh, in Israel during the time of Jesus.
Tana:Okay. Um, we're now where, I mean, it's, it's a really long journey from the time of synagogues at the time of Jesus to what church looks like today. Right. So it's probably taking, taken so many different forms.
Don:Yeah. I mean, to say something that scares, um, creationists, uh, it, it's evolved, right?
Tana:Right. Right. So do you know, and I realized, you know. You're not necessarily a historian, you know, a lot of church history, but do you know when it kind of became what it is now?
Don:So I like to blame a lot of things on Constantine. Yeah, me too. And, and I think that it's a good, you know, it's a fulcrum of time in the church that I think is significant in that Augustine begins to, Or St. Augustine, however you want to pronounce it, um, begins a time, a moment where everything has begun to shift and now those who hold authority of interpretation, those who hold authority of theology are not Jews. Mm, mm-hmm. Okay. For the, in the first time, and don't get me wrong, there were non-Jews, Gentiles, there were gentiles even early on that were part of leadership. Part of thinking about Jesus as Messiah, thinking about this, the Messianic, uh, peace, but it was predominantly Jews who had become convinced that Jesus was the Messiah. And so, The very beginning of Christian was thoroughly Jewish by the time Augustine comes around, we start to see that power dynamic shift that we start to see more and more of the people that were the interpreters. We just talked recently, um, about the idea of having authority, being able to interpret this, the Text in new ways. I would argue that. Somehow the church began to, uh, identify Gentiles as the ones that had authority to give a new interpretation of the Text. Um, and had they followed tradition, that wouldn't have happened, uh, at least not in the way that it did. And because of that, um, we see a shift of thinking. We see a shift of leadership and we see more and more the Jewish leadership being pushed out as Gentile leadership is brought in. And I would say that's when the church began to shift, right? Because then they wanted to change it from Saturday to Sunday, because that was the day that Jesus rose from the dead. So we start celebrating, Christianity celebrates the Lord's day on Sundays, as opposed to celebrating Sabbath. Uh,
Tana:which is Saturday,
Don:Which is Saturday and well, Friday night into Saturday evening. And so we see that shift. We start to see a shift of, um, bringing in more and more pagan, uh, traditions. And when I say that, I don't want to make that sound like it's a, like a terrible thing. Like, Oh my gosh, all of a sudden we've paganized Christianity and there's been writings about that. And it has good and bad, right? The. But what it is is different, right? That's the main thing. It's, it's different. We've taken a right hand turn from where, uh, Judaism, Judaism used the festivals and the feast to determine things. But as more and more Gentiles come in, they start, instead of following the Jewish calendar, they start following, what is it, the Julian? Yeah. Uh, calendar. And so now all of a sudden, instead of everything being based on the cycles of the moon, it starts to be based on the sun. And we start to see that the calendar shifts, and therefore, Easter starts becoming celebrated at a different time than Passover. Easter was the celebration of Passover. But then they slowly start to go apart. Easter having eggs brought in, which are fertility symbols, which fits with Gentile fertility ideas. So we start to see all of these pieces seep in. And it makes sense because those were things that were meaningful for generations in their families. And so now as they have come to believe that Jesus is Messiah and they start to see some of the story of Jesus in some of the traditions that they held of a new birth with a, with an egg, right? Like all these things were meaningful and they were able to connect it kind of like. Paul, do you remember the scene in Acts where Paul says, I've looked around your city and he's in Athens and he's like, and I can see your religious people. And so he's actually, uh, complimenting them for their ways of thinking about God and faith, even though the gods that they were worshiping was not the God that Paul was, right? So as Gentiles become more and more influential in the church, they start bringing more and more of these pagan traditions in and next thing you know. And by next thing you know, I don't know how many years, probably hundreds of years, it's, it looks nothing like first century synagogue. And not only does it look nothing like it, but the reading of scripture and the interpretation of scripture sounds nothing like what was being read and interpreted in the, uh, synagogue.
Tana:So, and you're saying a lot of this got. introduced around the time of Emperor Constantine, right? Cause he, uh, kind of forced a Christian ideology.
Don:Yeah. Constantine. Augustine. Uh, you know, these are, these are major moments within Christianity that causes huge shifts. And so between the two of them, and then you have Irenaeus, and anti semitism is coming in, and so as it's more anti semitic, uh, and Gentiles start to imagine that, uh, God had always made, they were always the chosen people, the Gentiles were always the chosen people, and the Jews messed up, and they failed and left God down, and now the Gentiles have to come in and clean up the mess, which is basically what, uh, supersessionism is, believes, that, uh, Gentiles are the true church now or the Christianity is the true church now, uh, and no longer the people of Israel. And obviously that's not biblical. And that comes from, uh, some people in power having the authority to dictate what is to be believed, building it into creeds. And stuff that everyone says every single week, uh, in order to remind them of their allegiance. Right. So.
Tana:Yeah. You know, you, you mentioned authority at one point, and that is so, you know, I decided to poke around a little bit and see what people were saying about, you know, do you need to go to church? And authority kept kind of coming back up as. It's one of the, one of the reasons by, um, you know, by places like the Gospel Coalition and things, you know, things like that who've written articles about this, right? And they, they refer to all these different verses about submitting to authority. Do you have any thoughts about that?
Don:Yes, but can you narrow it down?
Tana:Yeah, I'm, I'm trying to figure out how to narrow down my question because I'm trying to think of...
Don:You mean in, in sense of... In the argument of for a church.
Tana:Yeah, I'm sorry. An argument of attending church because it was like, um, You, here's one of the, one of the verses that the Gospel Coalition, uh, quoted was Hebrews 13: 17. It says, Obey your leaders and submit to them for they keep watch over your lives as people who will have to render an account. So make it a task of joy for them, not one of groaning for that is of no advantage to you. But they were using that as an example of like the Bible saying like, Oh, you have to go and submit to these leaders.
Don:Right.
Tana:So, does that seem to you to be a command that
Don:It has nothing to do with church.
Tana:That's, I guess that's what I'm asking.
Don:It's just, it's just, to apply that to church is absurd.
Tana:There's, there's a lot of verses that they went to, which a lot of them were just about fellowship, which I was like, well, that's, that can take lots of different forms. It's not saying like, oh, and you must, you know, have coffee in the lobby and like, you know what I mean? Like it wasn't, it doesn't seem to be. Um, talking about church, but the, there are lots of ones about like submitting to a leader and listening to teaching. And that was the, that was the only one where I thought maybe they had some sort of, uh, good point they might be making was like, Oh, you should submit to some kind of authority. Even though for me, I'm like, eh.
Don:So in the time of Jesus, there were two major schools, Hillel and Shammai, right? Jesus falls into the school of Hillel. Um, almost completely, just very minor differences. Uh, the school of Shammai, very different from Jesus. Hillel becomes the catalyst for the rabbinic movement. So Hillel's teachings survive. Shammai, uh, is teaching kind of go away. Uh, still influential, still important in Jewish tradition and Jewish study of the text. They still, uh, They still adhere or listen to the voice of Shammai, though they would, again, I would argue that most of Judaism today, uh, Rabbinic Judaism, would, would more closely identify with Hillel. And that's, that's somewhat of a guess because, again, as I always say, I'm not an expert on modern Judaism. So in that day, when the book of Hebrew was being written, there were more than one school of thought. So for, who is your teacher? Well, whoever you have submitted to, to be your teacher, you should listen to them. You should go to them and seek counsel. Right? This, to make this about you need to attend your local church, that, that may be the case if you have made the local pastor your teacher. And you recognize them as being the person who teaches the text in a way that resonates with your soul. And this is where Christianity really gets it wrong, in my opinion, is that we're more about come to my church and conform to my theology than we are. More likely than, we're more likely to tell people to come to our church and conform to the theology of that church than what we are to say, you need to go and find a church that resonates with your understanding of God.
Tana:Oh, I think that would be, that would be horrifying to a lot of people.
Don:The Gospel Coalition being one, right?
Tana:Yeah, well because it's, it's, it's, I, I can understand how what they would hear is, Oh, go find somebody who just confirms everything you already believe.
Don:Correct, and, and I would argue, Um, that there is some dangerous, too strong a word in my opinion, but there is some concern there, right? It's easy to go to a place that doesn't challenge you and just tells you or soothes your needs. But to assume that that's wrong is wrongheadedness. So one of my favorite, uh, rabbinic kind of quotes is that there were 100, 000 Jews and therefore 100, 000 interpretations of scripture. Right. Yeah. And I think that that's lost in particularly Western Christendom. And then the more conservative you get, even more so lost. Like there's only one interpretation. There's not 100, 000, even if there's 100, 000 people. There's 2 million people. There's not 100, 000. Interpretations. There is one interpretation of the text, and you just happen to be lucky enough to walk into my church where I'm the one giving it. We have the right one. And, and so this is counter to the time of Jesus. The time of Jesus was you found a rabbi or a teacher that you connected with, and then you followed them. The closest thing that we have today. Um, to kind of that, I shouldn't say closest. One of the things that comes to mind as a close, uh, within close proximity is our fandom of sports teams or even just an athlete. That's funny. Is that Jesus was like a Jordan, right? Not the Jordan, like crossing it and being dunked in it, but Jesus dunked in the Jordan. I feel like there's all kinds of jokes there. Anyhow, bad ones, clearly. But. But Jesus would have been more like, you know, kids would have their, their local heroes would have been this man from Galilee, right? Like, imagine this, you're a child and you hear stories of this man from Galilee that grew up, that, It gathers masses of people together to tell them their worth and their beauty and give them hope against, uh, empire. And not only did they give him hope, but he fed them. Like 5, 000 people he fed. And then some people swear they saw him walk across the water afterwards. Right? You as a child hearing these stories of these rabbis, and Jesus was not the only teacher of his day that was associated with miracle working. You have Honi the circle drawer, you have several of these amazing stories and these characters of these teachers who did these miracles and did these impossible things. All in the name of caring for the Israelites and giving them hope against the emperor. Right? And so these kids looked up to them, much like I imagine that during the civil rights movement, uh, that there were, there were children that looked up to MLK and Malcolm X and wanted to emulate them when they got older because they could see what they were doing to bring about change and they were giving hope. We don't have that today. I think there's some celebrity pastors, but the celebrity pastor now is about consuming them as opposed to emulating them. Interesting. Right? Like, we want a Rob Bell so we can consume all of his teachings and regurgitate them at a Christian party and sound like we know what we're talking about. Because then people will think we're, we're insightful. Right. Not, I want to be like Rob Bell. I want to live my life in the same way that he does and I want to treat my family in the same way, right? There was these... These traditions that rabbis would have to chase away the disciples because they would like hide under his bed, uh, to hear how he treated his spouse at night. And you can take that any direction you want that, that he would, they would want to see how he, uh, Um, cleaned up after using the bathroom, like there wasn't an aspect now, I think some of that's exaggerated tradition, right? To say there wasn't an aspect of the life of the teacher that these young people weren't wanting to emulate. We just don't have that anymore. Yeah. And, and rightfully so in the sense that we no longer, I think, have very many people that are in the pulpit that are worthy of that level of attention. Mm. Right? Because the people in the pulpit tend to be better at articulating their beliefs than living them.
Tana:Oof.
Don:Me included.
Tana:Yeah, I suppose that's difficult for anybody.
Don:Of course.
Tana:Yeah. Um, there's a lot I'm trying to sift through in response to everything you just said. I think... Um, one of the, one of the questions about that comes, I guess, I don't know if it comes before or after this question of like, do we need church? Sorry, this is going to feel a little bit like a right hand turn. Um, is why do Christians leave to begin with? And the reason that popped into my head, actually, it was because of what you said about how there's a lot of pastors who preach one way and like live a different way. Right. And for, I think there's a, a sort of more quote unquote, minor. way of looking at that as like, Oh, I'm trying to, I'm constantly trying to be this person. Right. And I'm constantly coming up short. Um, which feels a little bit more like sincere and, uh, you know, um, just fallible human kind of thing. And then there's the just hypocrites, right? The people who are talking about sexual immorality. And then you find out after 20 years of, um, service that they've been abusing children this whole time, you know, or whatever. Um, and I think that's a lot of what's driving people away from the church, right? Is the hypocrisy.
Don:I think that's the, how do I want to say it? Because, you know, I think you're right. But I also think that that's kind of the excuse to leave the church, right? Like it doesn't feel good for your church to be in a healthy place and your church to be going well. And you just go,"I just don't feel like coming anymore."
Tana:Right.
Don:Even though a lot of people feel that way and they're like dreading getting up on Sunday morning, they're dreading if they have children, getting kids ready and getting them off to church and. So when a scandal comes up, it's like, all right, I'm just breaking ties with this.
Tana:Yeah.
Don:And it becomes a, this is a good, I now feel like I have a legitimate reason to leave. And I want to tell the listener. You making a decision to leave is actually a legitimate enough reason to leave. You don't, like, you don't owe anything to anyone. Uh, so you don't have to wait for a scandal. You don't have to wait for another problematic headline to make that decision. Uh, it is enough of a, it is enough for you to say, I'm not, I just don't want to do this anymore.
Tana:So, uh, I was recently looking at polls on church attendance. Well, what the poll actually was was on church membership, which I'm not sure how that translates to church attendance.
Don:It's probably better.
Tana:I I know I... wait, which way? There
Don:are more people that are members of church than attend church.
Tana:See, I was wondering which way it would go. Cause at first I thought that, but then I thought about how I think there are more and more people who are like, why do I need to be a member of this church?
Don:It may have shifted. I know that in the early 2000s, at least it was membership was often higher than attendance. Like you had like 250, 300 people in your membership roll and you had about a hundred people that showed up a week.
Tana:I would totally agree. And I think that. But I, I suspect that at some point it flipped because younger people are like, why do I need to be a member? I'm just going to show up when I want to, you know?
Don:Yeah, but churches also don't clear their member rolls so.
Tana:That's fair. Yeah, so who knows? Anyway, um, a Gallup poll in 2020 found that 47% of U. S. adults claim membership in a church, synagogue, or mosque, which is down more than 20 points since 2000.
Don:Yeah, listen, when the problem, it's, it's interesting to me because I think that the question, do we need church is the right question, but I think we think of it in the wrong way.
Tana:Okay.
Don:That's the question that the church should be asking, right, right. And the church should be asking that. And then saying, what should we be doing as a church to make a church feel like a necessary or important part of our community's life?
Tana:Yes. And I want to explore that question. And I was thinking a very similar thing because, so what I did was I looked up these statistics because I was curious about like church attendance, right? Yeah. Um, So then I, I decided to look up, why do Christians leave the church and It's interesting because most of my, the immediate search results I found were from pastors talking about why they think people are leaving the church.
Don:Yes.
Tana:Okay, so it was very
Don:That's like having Gordon Ramsay come to your restaurant and him say, why do you think people aren't coming to your restaurant? And you go, I know the food's good, the service is great, and the decor looks amazing. Because they're idiots.
Tana:"They just can't appreciate our style."
Don:They're idiots, Gordon Ramsay, and Gordon Ramsay, like, spits out your food, uh, and wipes grease off your walls, and yeah.
Tana:Yeah, and so there was a lot of, like, I, so I actually watched snippets of, like, YouTube videos from different pastors, like, you know, saying why. And it's like, oh, people want to live a worldly life and leave morals behind. Um, some blamed the fancier, um, megachurch. Like a megachurch kind of thing where it's like, Oh, it's too flashy. And so then they get bored of that or something. It was a weird argument.
Don:A real quick question before you finish that list. Do you think I have a future doing a Gordon Ramsey TV show of like, Hi. Church Hell, or Church Nightmare.
Tana:No, no.
Don:I could definitely speak in a British accent and curse people out at churches.
Tana:Well, I mean, yeah, uh, I just think they would, they wouldn't ask you.
Don:That's fair. Alright.
Tana:The ones that need the help.
Don:Fine, just, just continue with your list.
Tana:So, anyway.
Don:Shooting down my dreams and aspirations.
Tana:Yeah, that's, that's why I'm here, honey. Um, a lot of them blamed college professors. Because once the kids grow up in the church and then they go off to college and those darn liberal college professors ruin. And, and a lot of them were like, I would suggest that if you're, if they're leaving a church, they were never a Christian to begin with. So there's that no true Scotsman kind of thing. Um, but what was really interesting to me was, That, um, well, by interesting, I mean abhorrent, was that there were several pastors who said, stated that church hurt is no excuse to stop going to church.
Don:I mean, they're the ones hurting people. So it's asked, like asking an abusive spouse that question, right?
Tana:That's fair. Yeah.
Don:So the main, the main thing with all of these is that. Um, it's not actually dealing with ourself, right? Like the church, like I'm speaking about this from like the perspective of the church wrestling with this. The church isn't dealing with what is it that gets a family up on a Sunday morning and makes them want to go through all the effort and energy on a day off to gather the kids, put them together in a vehicle, and then head someplace.
Tana:Well, I think that's kind of what the megachurch was trying to answer.
Don:And so what happens is, people like, that start megachurches, They, they say, oh, it's to take the kids to the park. Or it's to take the kids to the amusement, uh, facility or to take them to be entertained. And so they turn their children's area into entertainment.
Tana:Oh, okay.
Don:And so, but what they're doing is they're answering it wrong. That isn't what gets a family up on a day off to go entertain the kids, it's to go make memories with your children. It's to go do something that you don't get to experience very often. It's to, um, get the opportunity to see the look of excitement and fun on your child's faces. They're attempting a new ride or experiencing something new in nature, right? None of which we do at church because the kids get ushered off to the playground. And then the parents get, uh, in the cattle chute that leads them into the sanctuary.
Tana:Mm hmm.
Don:And so, at first, it feels like, to the family, oh my gosh, this is what we've been missing because the kids are excited to get up and go to church and, you know, it's wonderful and blah, blah, blah. But then, the reason that the megachurch probably has the biggest revolving door of any churches is because that isn't actually what it is that's at the heart of people getting up on a Sunday morning. Now, I want to be careful because some people it is. And again, I think the megachurch can be an effective thing for a lot of people. And it can be meaningful and it has brought life and faith and hope to a lot of people. And... But, and at least they were willing to ask the question and make drastic changes to try to address the problem. Whereas you get into more older, traditional churches who are just like"the kids these days just don't, don't, you know, they're upset because the pews are hard," right?"Like they just don't know what it's like to sit with a crooked spine in a, in a pinewood box." Right. So like there's, there's all of these things that at least the mega church was attempting to address it, but I think they were attempting it, not realizing that really what drives most people to want to go and do something is how it makes them feel, which I think the church can get that at some points, what impact they have on the community, right? And what it means for the rest of their life. Yeah. Right. And here's the problem. I don't think the church does very good at those things.
Tana:Yeah.
Don:I don't think that the church does a good job of creating an atmosphere in which people feel feel like this is significant and what I'm participating in is significant and that my participation here betters my community, because I think most people think, yeah, it might be good for me to hear a sermon, but they don't think me being present. With a bunch of other people from my neighborhood in my community is a value and this is where again I think the church is really taking a shift from you having the neighborhood churches that were right in the neighborhood. Now we have destination churches where you drive across the city you drive into another town to attend a church or you just go online and you you watch or you? Participate from another part of the world even right and since there's no longer these neighborhood settings. Getting together with all of your neighbors... like, people love block parties. Yeah. Right? They love block parties. They love community yard sales. They love things like that. Uh, our, our neighborhood, uh, just did a 4th of July event, right? There's, there's these things that bring a neighborhood together. And then it's great. You're like, Oh, I met a whole bunch of my neighbors. And I found I have a lot of common with so and so. That is what. I think the church used to offer, and I would argue what the ancient synagogue most definitely offered was it was a hub for the community to come into. It was the local barber shop type thing. It was the local like watering hole, whatever you want to call it, right? And, but the church is no longer that. And because it's no longer that, then we have to say, what is the point of the church? And what would you say it is? And I'm talking about churches in the local church, not churches in the concept of the ecclesia of people. But instead, what, what is the purpose of the local church?
Tana:You mean like what should it be? Sure.
Don:You know... I don't think most of us can answer the question fully. I, I think it's...
Tana:Yeah, well I think there's different, people would answer it differently. I think some people would be like, well, that's where you go and you learn about God. Like that would be like their sort of transactional, I go there and the pastor teaches me.
Don:And I think that's what a lot of pastors, particularly the ones that filled out the poll you were referencing, think.
Tana:Yeah. Oh yeah, you're here to learn from me.
Don:Right. Our pastors are not community organizers.
Tana:No. And that's actually a really, really interesting way to put that, I think. I agree, you said earlier that churches aren't very good always at taking care of the community around them and being a part of the community around them.
Don:We're actually probably better at caring for international communities than we are for our own.
Tana:That is probably true. And it makes me think about, so do you remember when, I don't know if it's still a big thing, but like Acts 2 churches were like a big thing? Yes. Okay. So, do you mind if I actually read the portion of Acts 2 that they're usually referring to?
Don:Yes.
Tana:You mind?
Don:Yes. No. I was just checking my authority.
Tana:So Acts 2 42 to 47, the version I have in front of me is NIV."They devoted themselves to the Apostles teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the Apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved." So I read that. Um, and I feel like the, the sort of, uh, Acts Two church network thing overly simplified that to make sure you're at church on Sunday and go to small groups.
Don:And I think there was a hope, like missional became popular.
Tana:Yeah, missional. But there's so many parts of that that I can see people 100% objecting to: selling their property and possessions?
Don:Oh, they won't even object to it. They just would pretend like it wasn't in there.
Tana:And it says every day they continue to meet together, you know, like it's just it's interesting to me that that was pushed so much as like the verse when it's not really But but anyway, my point more so is that there's that and there's all these other Um, passages that, you know, some of these people were pointing to and saying like, well, this tells you, you should go to church, but it's more so about being in fellowship with one another and constant commands to take care of other people in the community.
Don:Well, the church has, has shifted to a mindset of what do we, what must we believe in order to be saved as opposed to how shall we live in order to bring about salvation.
Tana:Hmm.
Don:And because of that. The church is a place that we go to get our checklist as opposed to going to get, uh, the needs list, right? Like in, in early days, and I think this probably still happens in some churches, right? I don't, I don't want this to sound like I think all church have gotten this wrong. I just think a lot of churches have. And, uh, a lot of our listeners who are frustrated with church, frustrated with Christianity, but still feel some, some like connectedness to God or Jesus, um, wrestling with this. I think that a lot of churches have become a space in which we go to become assured of our own spiritual salvation and what we're really called, what churches really should be about. is a gathering of the community to ensure the salvation of our neighbors. And by salvation, I mean safety and security, the eliminating of chaos and making sure that everyone had something to eat, that everyone had clothes, that everyone had all their needs covered. And, you know, we've been in church experiences that have attempted to do that. And that is so counter to the way that the world functions and thinks, that that actually burnt our people out, because it felt overwhelming to always be addressing the needs of the community, and because we don't have stamina for that. We only have stamina to do a fundraiser to uh, build a church or build an orphanage in Venezuela, uh, and we're going to do that. We're going to spend three months on it. We're going to send six people to go handle it. And that's the stamina that we've created for caring for the needs of the community. And by having a faith community that is constantly, perpetually, um, bringing the needs forward. Um, and not hiding them, but instead, uh, bringing visibility to them. We don't, we don't have the mechanisms right now for people for that to be sustainable for very long. Because no one's thinking about what you read for Acts 2. To sell your goods or to sell your properties in order to make sure that everyone has, right? That's pretty consistent throughout the Bible.
Tana:Yeah.
Don:And it's not like that's a brand new concept that was just come up with.
Tana:Right.
Don:Um, and so, but for us, that would be a bridge too far to even imagine something like that.
Tana:Yeah. You know... so Okay, sorry. I have a bunch of different thoughts going through my head. I'm trying to wrangle one of them into a question So you you've said that it's not Biblically like you must go to church on Sunday as a Christian like that kind of thing. What do you think about the need for like Oh my gosh, I'm having such a hard time forming this into a question. Not like, should Christians go to church? Like, but more so like, Um, I guess what, what to you are the benefits?
Don:So I want to be clear. I never said that Christians shouldn't go to church.
Tana:Right.
Don:Now, I want to clarify this further. Sure. Yeah. The question is, do we need the church? Right. And the answer is, desperately. We need the church. We just don't need the church that we currently have.
Tana:Okay, so let me ask the question differently then. What should the church be?
Don:I, I think we talked about the church should be a space in which the community comes together to ensure that everyone there has their needs met. And those needs are physical, emotional, spiritual, that we, um, we put people in leadership. Who are teaching us how to be better humans, not just for our own health and well being, but for the health and well being of our household, and the health and the well being of our neighbors, and the health and well being of our full community. Yeah. Instead, what we have are buildings in which we attend in order to be reminded of how we fall short and, um, how we desperately need Jesus. And in some ways, oftentimes, left, leave, feeling like there's, that we can't do anything. We're worthless and so we can't do anything to bring about healing and healthiness in our community. And we leave more desperate than we arrived. And the church should be a beacon of hope. That encourages people that there is a tomorrow that can look different than today and that tomorrow can be one that is good and beautiful and meaningful and you can come along and be a part of that. And right now, if you're tired and hurting and need and in need, sit, relax, right? And let us care for you. And then when you're strong enough, join us. In bringing about the change in the community that Jesus spoke about.
Tana:So this might be too heavy a question for so late in the podcast, but do you think... Let me kind of frame this a little bit. In my research on why do we need the church, or why, actually it was more so, why should Christians go to church? Um, several pastors were like, you can't do good works unless you're with other Christians, which is... It's absurd.
Don:Liar.
Tana:Yeah. Uh, so do you think, like what you're describing, does it need to be a church? Does it need to be Christian?
Don:So here's, here's the thing. I think what we've seen from those people who have begun their deconstruction process or who are leaving the church in droves is because they're replacing it with the things that are closer to that.
Tana:Yeah. Yeah.
Don:Even if it's brunch with friends. Right. Brunch with friends feels closer to what I described than a lot of churches. Um, a lot of people go and volunteer or go and participate in other spaces and maybe not on Sunday morning, but the time that they regain on Sunday morning gives them time and energy other times in their week to go and give back. So many people I know that have left the church are some of the kindest, most generous people in their community. So what they're doing is they actually are. Desire that agape that that love that communal love they desire it so much The church isn't doing it.
Tana:Mm hmm,
Don:and they walk away from the church to go find a way to do it elsewhere
Tana:Yeah,
Don:so Should people go to church? I mean that's for each person to figure out on their own Could the church do a better job? And instead of doing, you know, uh, seminars on how to attract people through, you know, whatever, they would instead start, um, benefiting the community.
Tana:Yeah.
Don:And start becoming a, a place of hope. Uh, not just in a spiritual sense, but in a physical, emotional, uh, sense as well. And if we did those things, then we wouldn't have to ask the question, uh, should, do we have to go to church or do we need church? We need community.
Tana:Yes.
Don:And believe me, there's exceptions to the rules of monks, I think, about, right? Who don't necessarily need community.
Tana:Well, aren't they in community with one another?
Don:Not necessarily.
Tana:Oh.
Don:Uh, and so, there, we do have a sense of community overall as a, we're a communal creature.
Tana:Yeah. Mm hmm.
Don:Do I think that the rush to leave the church has, feels good initially and then leaves a hole for people? Yeah, I do. And I think it's sad. Because it didn't have to be that way. But if the church wants it to be necessary, then the church needs to change.
Tana:You know, I think about everything you're saying, I'm thinking back to the Acts 2 part where, It's saying, you know, uh, they sold property and possessions to give to anyone who hasn't had need. And there's constant, there's so many verses about helping the poor and stuff, right? But then a lot of church leaders will focus on the man does not live by bread alone.
Don:Of course.
Tana:But by the very word of God. And it's almost like those few verses here and there about Jesus saying something to that effect, like negate all the need, even though Jesus went out and provided for people's needs.
Don:I think if our church budget reflected the teachings of Jesus.
Tana:Right.
Don:The church would be a lot more relevant.
Tana:Yeah. And it seems like we need more, the church is so focused on quote unquote, correct doctrine, that it's not focusing enough on actually doing what the words say.
Don:And so quick, if you made it this far, and what I'm saying is irritating the shit out of you because you attend a church that you love and brings life to you. Then I wasn't talking about your church. And we don't have to not all church hashtag this. Right? That there are churches that are doing good and right and beautiful things, which is why I think Christianity will continue in this world. But I also think that, you know, this is a time of, uh, mass quitting of jobs. The great, what is that called?
Tana:The great resignation.
Don:The great resignation. That's, that's true of spaces in which people recognize that the value they bring to the table is not returned to them.
Tana:Yeah.
Don:And the church is getting its comeuppance right now for the same reasons.
Tana:Mm. Yeah. Yeah.
Don:And so if your church is not like that, then let us know what church you go to and tell us about it. Um, we'd love to hear and that's amazing. And you should do the, do the work to get the word out in your community that this is a place that brings life and health and beauty, not just lectures.
Tana:Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a good place to stop.
Don:Yep. So we need the church.
Tana:Okay, yes, so, and yeah, that's the final answer on the question. The final answer is,
Don:and I'm not calling a friend, I'm not calling a friend,
Tana:uh, we need the church. Yeah. All right. Well, um, thank you for joining us today. If you want to drop us a line or check anything else out about us, you can do that at ajffpodcast. com. If you want to support us, you can go to buymeacoffee. com slash ajff and you know, leave us a little tip or you can do monthly supporting and uh, otherwise we will just see you next time. Bye. Bye.