Did God create evil? What is evil? If God didn't create evil, where did it come from? Don and Tana explore the origins of evil, concepts of justice, and what it means for the world to have both light and darkness.
Previous podcast episodes referenced:
Bible passages referenced:
Genesis 2: 9
Isaiah 45: 7
Micah 6: 8
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Did God create evil? What is evil? If God didn't create evil, where did it come from? Don and Tana explore the origins of evil, concepts of justice, and what it means for the world to have both light and darkness.
Previous podcast episodes referenced:
Bible passages referenced:
Genesis 2: 9
Isaiah 45: 7
Micah 6: 8
Buy us a coffee!
Website
YouTube
TikTok
Facebook
Instagram
Hello, and welcome to Ancient Jesus Future Faith. I am one of your hosts, Tana Schiewer, and I'm here with Don Schiewer. Hello. And today we want to talk about the concept of evil.(Don: oooooooo) That was our fancy side effect, uh, button. Side effect? Side effect. Sound effect.
Don:I do, I do have side effects, like nausea, pain in the neck.
Tana:You should record that sound and sell it, honey. Uh, yes. Anyway, evil. Yay! So, um, I wanted to talk about this topic because it is something that has always been a little bit of a, um, perplexing thing to me. Sure. And for me, that's because... Well, actually, if you don't mind, I'll just read the Bible verse that always kind of makes me think about this. Okay, it's Genesis 2, 9, and it says,"Out of the ground Adonai, God, caused to grow every tree pleasing in appearance and good for food, including the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of knowledge of good and evil." Uh, and that's the complete Jewish Bible I was reading from. So, that is the first time the word evil is mentioned in the Bible. It's pretty early. That's fairly early. I mean, Genesis 2, in the early part, and it says, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. There's no description of, um, evil being created or spontaneously forming or anything. It's... It's... That, to me, I read that, and I think, oh, the assumption there is evil already exists. Right?
Don:Yes.
Tana:And, up until then, everything is, um, just, you know, God creating things, having the earth bring forth things, and so to me that means it's, it's already there. It doesn't specifically say. That God created evil, but if the basic understanding is that God created everything...
Don:Well, the Bible does say God created evil.
Tana:Oh, it does? Where?
Don:Isaiah 45 7.
Tana:Isaiah 45 7. Do you have it there? Do you want to read it or do you want me to pull it up?
Don:Uh, you can pull it up.
Tana:Say it again,
Don:Isaiah 45 7.
Tana:45 7. I'm glad you repeated that because I remembered it completely incorrectly. Okay, Isaiah 45 7."I form light, I create darkness, I make well being, I create woe, I, Adonai, do all these things."
Don:Yeah, the word woe is the same word as evil.
Tana:So. Okay, so it does say God created evil.
Don:Yes.
Tana:So what's up with that? That's, that's my big question.
Don:Well, I think first of all, we have to decide what is the definition of evil that is, you know, there's, you know, the tradition of the first usage of something is when you get the definition for it. But this is a tough one to get a definition from that. Yeah. From that verse because it's just spoken as a category. Right. And so. So, if we're looking at it, uh, it's the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which just seems to mean the ability to differentiate, um, two categories.
Tana:Sure.
Don:Right? And, and I think that that's where maybe we begin with thinking about it. So, we have added over... centuries, millennia, all these other things to what it is that makes something evil.
Tana:Mm hmm.
Don:And I'm not certain that that verse is talking about just the Jeffrey Dahmers of the world.
Tana:Mm hmm.
Don:Or just the racist or bigots of the world. But that this is It's really about the ability to understand what gives life and what brings death. Evil brings death, um, justice, mercy, and love, uh, Micah 6, 8, right? Um, that brings life. And so... This picture or this, uh, parable, this story that's being told about the garden is that in some way, this tree, uh, the fruit of the tree represents humanity's ability to understand the difference. Like, I think if we look around today, there are things that most people are in agreement about that it's evil. But there's a lot of things that people debate. What is good and what is evil, or what brings life and what brings death. Some people will even argue things that literally bring death are positives as a whole. So, so I think that's where, where we have to start with the idea of evil. So what does that do? Like, is that helpful for you to think about? Is that, like, does that undo even some of the conversation you wanted to have today?
Tana:I think, I don't, I don't think it undoes it. I think what I'm trying to get at is what... I, I think if you asked most Christians about evil, it's like, there's this, I don't think a lot of people have thought about it, honestly, and I think there's this idea of mostly from all these extra biblical sources, right, of like the fallen angel, Lucifer, you know, Satan fell from heaven and it's like, it's almost like evil, like was created independently of God. Right?
Don:Sure. I think, I think it's really uncomfortable for us if we believe in a supreme being that is love incarnate, not even incarnate, but just love embodied.
Tana:Yeah.
Don:That it's hard then to be like, and that, that being also create evil.
Tana:Right. So I do think a definition of it would be very, very helpful.'cause I don't think we can escape the idea that if it exists, God must have created it. If that's your biblical, if like if that's your worldview, that God created everything,
Don:mm-hmm
Tana:then you either have to say, God created evil, or you have to admit that something else existed with God. Do you know what I mean?
Don:Well, I think it, I think we can even go more nuanced than that though. Right? Like, if I create a law, I've now created more than just a law, what else have I created?
Tana:I don't know, like punishments for that law?
Don:Yeah, even without, like, unless obviously within the law I list what the punishments are for failing it, I've created two things regardless of anything else. I make a rule or a law, I've created two things. Let's say it's a rule instead of a law.
Tana:Okay.
Don:Rule followers? Rule breakers.
Tana:Okay.
Don:Now I haven't done anything. Right. Like I haven't caused people to be rule followers or rule breakers. I've only created a rule. Uh, and, and instantly then people are either one of those two categories. So I think that's probably more of the nuance that at least even Isaiah seems to be touching on that. I think. you know, ancient thinkers about God would have, right? It says in Isaiah, I create light and I create darkness. Well, there's nowhere in the text, in the creation narrative, where darkness is actually one of the things created, unless you want to argue the Spirit of God hovering over the Tohu Vavohu, which is the formless and deep. But even then, it doesn't say that God created the formless and deep. It just says that the Spirit of God was hovering over that.
Tana:Yeah, I guess he said, let there be light, right? He didn't say let there be light and darkness.
Don:But the moment that there is light, now it is defining itself against the darkness.
Tana:Darkness.
Don:And therefore, by creating light in a dark space, it has now created both things that are in the light and things that are outside the light. And what is it? What do we call things that aren't in the light, what we call them in the dark, and therefore... do you see what I'm saying? So just philosophically, you can make a case that by creating light
Tana:mm-hmm.
Don:You've also then immediately, you've created the need for a category of darkness.
Tana:Okay, so it says,"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was unformed and void. Darkness was on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God hovered over the surface of the water." So I would infer that if God created the heavens and the earth, that God also created darkness.
Don:It doesn't say that.
Tana:But then where did the darkness come from?
Don:Well, I mean, that's just the conundrum every human faces, right? Whether it's someone of faith or someone without faith. Uh, if, if we don't have a God thing that created this stuff, then where'd it come from?
Tana:Right.
Don:How'd it get here? It's a problem regardless of whether you believe in God or not.
Tana:Yeah, right.
Don:So, um. And I don't, I think that's above our pay grade on this podcast to solve that eternal question.
Tana:Right. Cause even if you believe in the big bang as the, like the source of all stuff, like something had to exist before that to create a bang.
Don:Yeah. And I don't want to get in the weeds with that too much. And the reason for that is I, that, that particular realm of science and thought is not something that ever was all that intriguing to me. I don't know if it's because I grew up as a Christian and so I just didn't really care. So I don't know. There might be tons of theories and concepts that make a ton of sense that I, I am uncertain of. So I don't want to make it sound like people that believe in, do not believe in a God, they also lack the exact same.
Tana:Well, just to clarify, I wasn't like insinuating anything bad about people who believe in the Big Bang. I was just saying, like, no matter what you think about the beginning of the universe, there are questions about what began when, what existed when,
Don:and what started it.
Tana:And can there be a beginning, because wouldn't there have to be something beforehand for something to begin?
Don:But even your problem, and we might be going down this path too far, but you even just have the same question of who created God. Or what created God,
Tana:Where did God come from?
Don:So even if we're debating about whether God created darkness or all the heavens and all the earth or whatever, We still are stuck with a first action problem. And, uh, so. Regardless, we're talking about evil.
Tana:Woo! Well, and I think, I think the impression, I don't know if anybody actually ever said this growing up, but the, I think the impression I got was that humans brought evil into the world by eating from the tree.
Don:Sure, because that's where it says sin entered.
Tana:Right. But again, the tree is named the knowledge of good and evil, and so then they were like, oh, now we know these things. And I know you've talked about this before, we talked about Garden Theology and about how...
Don:Yeah, I think that was season one.
Tana:Yeah, I think so. And, uh, you talked about how you think, you believe they learned to judge poorly, basically.
Don:Well, it's, it was more so that they graduated early.
Tana:Right.
Don:Right. Like, that... Uh, you know, Grandpa's 1965 Corvette sitting in the garage under a tarp is meant to be your graduation gift, and instead at 16 you go out and jump in and take it for a joyride. Um, and wreck it. You know, I feel like that's kind of the garden story, right? Is this, you know, not to make it a Ferris Bueller's Day Off type story, but it kind of is, right? That, that, and it doesn't say you will never eat from the tree. It just says do not as of now.
Tana:Yeah, that's true That's true.
Don:And so I like to imagine and you can go back and listen to this podcast it's gonna go way more in depth, but I like to imagine it that God had intended because it says God walked in the garden with them, right? And so this seems to be a story of of God raising two children, which can be awkward because they're intimate with each other, but God raising some kids in the ways of God to then go out and be caretakers of the world. And instead, they, they decide that they want to make decisions for themselves, that they want to move out on their own, that they're tired of hearing these rules, and so they eat from the tree. And God even says, and I think there's some sadness potentially to be read here, but that now you'll have dominion over the world instead of being a gardener. One that cares for the land, nurtures the land. Instead, you're going to be in this eternal battle with the land for dominance.
Tana:You know, it's interesting because that makes me think about the prodigal son and how there was an impatience for his inheritance.
Don:Yes.
Tana:You know, and it's just kind of interesting that there's this theme repeated of people trying to graduate early. And I can't think of, I can't think immediately of other instances, but I feel like there are other instances of like... I don't have this fully formed knowledge yet, and I'm gonna go out and then I'm gonna make poor decisions.
Don:Yeah. I mean, we see it with Jesus staying behind, uh, in Jerusalem when his parents are going back home.
Tana:Oh, yeah.
Don:And he is, I'm a, I'm a big boy now, and he stays at, at the, at the temple to study with or to learn from the teachers there. So it's, It's actually just a very common story all of us probably sometime in junior high.
Tana:Right.
Don:We're like, I'm gonna pack a lunch.
Tana:Right.
Don:And I'm leaving. I'm out.
Tana:Yeah.
Don:It'd be so, life would be so much better if I made my own decisions instead of you know, whatever experience we're having. Yeah. And I think that that's just kind of an a coming of age
Tana:Sure. Yeah. Yeah, so you were talking about defining evil.
Don:Mm hmm
Tana:Is there a way to do that properly through scripture?
Don:Yeah, I think the way that scripture frames the idea of evil is more along the lines of deliberate or intentional, whatever language you want to use there, um, flauting through the way that you live, function, talk, engage, God's way of being. So it's not, it's not, it's not like, uh, you, you do something and, uh, like, I don't know why, but this is always one of my favorite examples for stuff is like you stub your toe and you swear, right? And I don't personally think that profanity is actually a sin unless you are doing it in someone's general direction that's causing them in some, otherwise it's just a word. But let's say you stub your toe, you have this imagination that profanity is a sin, you stub your toe, you swear. Well, you committed a sin, but it wasn't evil. It wasn't, there was no premeditation. There was no determinants that was like, I'm flaunting this moment. It was a reaction to a situation, right? A heated argument with a spouse or a friend, uh, or any partner, right? Like, that heated argument, if, if it just happens, it's not healthy and it's not great, but it's not evil. Evil is this, is more so this... I know what the right thing to do is here. I know the difference between good and evil, and I choose evil. That's, that's evil. And it can be small things. It doesn't even have to be huge things. It's just, you have decided in that moment, you, it's like, um, getting pulled over for speeding. And maybe you're doing three to five miles or the speed limit and you don't have a speeding ticket and it's not because you haven't been caught. It's just because you don't tend to speed. And you were listening to the AJFF podcast and you were so into, so motivating that you lost track and you were speeding and you got pulled over. That's different than you're like,"So, my time, my, and my arrival someplace is more important than the safety of people on this road, more important than other people's ability to get someplace in the time that the speed limit or traffic laws allow them to." And so you've determined that it's more important for you, uh, to be able to speed. Right. And therefore, and look. We've all probably done it. Yeah. But you're deliberately breaking law. You know what the speed limit is, and you decide you're better than it, and it doesn't apply to you in this moment. Or it might apply to you. And then the worst is when you get mad, when you get pulled over and you're like, and you knew you were breaking the law, and instead you're angry about it.
Tana:Right. So. Yeah, we see that a lot of someone who's been caught and they just get angry at the people for catching them.
Don:Right, like don't you have something better to do? Aren't there more important things to do? And it's like, maybe, but
Tana:doesn't change the fact that you broke the law!
Don:Right, and you knew what you were doing.
Tana:Yeah, yeah. So, what are some, do you, are there specific Sorry, I'm starting a bunch of different questions'cause I'm not exactly sure what I wanna ask.
Don:Well, can I add something else? Yes, please. So in Leviticus, all of the offerings, the operatory system, Uhhuh, is built upon a system of when you realize that you have done something wrong. Oh, right, yeah. Then bring an offering. Right? There is no offering.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:in Leviticus.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:for intentional behavior.
Tana:Intentional or unintentional?
Don:Intentional. There's no offerings, so if you do something intentionally wrong there is no offering.
Tana:Oh, okay.
Don:The only offerings available according to Leviticus are when you come to understand that something you had done was wrong. And therefore you reflect on something maybe you're sitting around someone's like, you know That really upset me or hurt me when you X Y Z and then you at that moment take responsibility for it except the You know
Tana:the consequences?
Don:That isn't the word I was gonna use but you you accept that confrontation you you say,"Okay. Yeah, you're right. That was I was in the wrong and then you would go and give an offering and that offering, that act of communion with God, going back to God, having a meal with God, and being like, God, I just realized that I've been harmful to my neighbor. I just realized that I have caused discomfort or sadness or whatever to my neighbor and I just wanted you to know" and God goes, it's okay. Right? That's the picture of the offertory system in Leviticus. Now, you know, deliberately cutting down your neighbor's flowers in their front yard. Which one of our neighbors did that to us? That wasn't like an oops. Right. There isn't a thing where our neighbor takes up an offering and goes to God and says, my bad. Now. The thing is, is that it might happen on one day where the neighbor realizes"that that actually was kind of rude of me. And now that I've gotten to know my neighbors, I wouldn't have done that. And now I'm thinking there's really never a time I should do that." Now all of a sudden it is something you can give an offering for and God would forgive you.
Tana:How?
Don:Because you realize the depth. of the thing that you had done. But it was still intentional. Right, but you realize now, if you had the information you had today, then you wouldn't have done it. Right? And so you're realizing that I didn't have all the information. This is, this is why I find Jewish law beautiful. The judge always wants to find a reason. To bring forgiveness and restoration. That's very different than American law. American Justice system always wants to punish.
Tana:Yeah.
Don:Right? Whereas Jewish law, it's why you know Some of the laws that we hear in the text You can't find a recording of them actually following through with the punishment in any of history. Right. And people go Oh, they just didn't want to write it down. No Israel wrote down everything. Read the Bible. There is some of their most important figures have some shady ass shit going on in their background. And they wrote it down.
Tana:Yeah, yeah.
Don:So to think that they just decided not to write this down is kind of silly. Yeah. So again, this is the beauty of realizing that maybe thinking earlier, I don't care if it's against the rules, I'm gonna do it. And then as you get older, like, I mean, I can think of things from my youth that I didn't care was against the law or was against, uh, people that I cared about. And now that I'm older, I look back and go, man, if I knew then what I know today, I would have never done that. And I would argue in that moment, I could go sit down, have a meal with God and say, man, I, I grieve. What happened at that point? And God would say, it's okay.
Tana:So if there wasn't an offeratory, um, if there wasn't an offering for intentional acts, what was, I'm assuming then the response was one of these punishments you're saying they never did.
Don:I'm going to need you to re ask that, please.
Tana:Sorry, uh...
Don:Because it started as a statement and switched to a question at the end that I wasn't ready for.
Tana:So you said there's no offering for an intentional sin.
Don:Right.
Tana:So, what happened to somebody who did that? Well,
Don:So it depends, right? First of all, one thing I want to be clear, I didn't say there was no forgiveness for intentional sins.
Tana:That's an important distinction.
Don:Just no offertory. Right. No offering. No sit down with God. No meal with God. But I would liken it more so to moving from outlaw to law abiding citizen. Right. That, you know, you read, uh, or it's, this is also just a number of movies, TV shows, right. where you have this person who is an outlaw and now they have a legit business.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:and they're trying to live life.
Tana:It's a suicide squad! No, I'm just kidding.
Don:I have no idea. I'm not a DC fan. So, um, so there's like, There's, there's always this tension, right? That you are someone who was outside the law, you weren't part of the law abiding community, something happens, and you decide, I want to change, and I want to be a part of the law abiding community, and then you, one, you might have to face the consequences for what you did, so, you know, I don't, again, uh, Suicide Squad, not sure, but like, jail time, whatever it might be, you get out of prison, and then, You live a, uh, upright citizen's life.
Tana:Mm hmm.
Don:And, and that's the difference, right? Is that when we think about evil in the Bible, or we think about, um, intentionally breaking the commands of God, what you're saying is, God's not my king.
Tana:Mm hmm.
Don:God is not my... It's not the, the thing that I base the way I live my life on. And God is seemingly okay with that, but then, if you want to, um, get back in God's good graces, so to speak, then you have to come back around and be like, no, God actually is, you know, the, the way I determine what is good, what is evil, how to treat people. And I might have to face the consequences for my action when I decide to strike out on my own. But now that I'm back, I'm going to do my best to follow those rules. Does that make sense?
Tana:Yeah.
Don:Because I think when we think about good evil, we think about judgment and stuff. We try to make it fit in our
Tana:Mm.
Don:And our idea of justice today.
Tana:Sure.
Don:Which, our idea of justice, unfortunately, though, there's a lot of, uh, organizations and stuff that are moving towards this and fighting for this, and it's not restorative.
Tana:No.
Don:Right? And biblical justice is restorative, and it's always about people, individuals, reclaiming, uh, their inheritance, so to speak, from this God. Right, it's it's back to your prodigal son, right? How does your prodigal son think of themselves? I was dead I left you and I think it's interesting that he imagines he's dead because that's what he wishes for the father I was dead I've sinned against you and against heaven. Can I come back and be a lesser person in your family? Right, well In the U. S., in our justice system, the answer from the father would be like, Yeah, that's fine, over there's the broom and the mop, start cleaning.
Tana:Yeah.
Don:Um, and someday, I might, I might love you again, whatever, right?
Tana:Right, yeah.
Don:Um, but in Jewish concept of justice, biblical concept of justice, the answer is, No, you walked away and separated yourself from this family. You just came back because you realized... That what you did was harmful, it broke relationships, it ended meaningful X, Y, and Z. And because you came back, I'm going to say... You're, you're, you're back in the family. You've been restored. And here's the kicker, which upsets the brother: even his inheritance is restored. He blew the inheritance he took, but by being restored back in the family, he's going to gain another inheritance when the father passes.
Tana:Yeah.
Don:And that's what upsets the older brother. And we could go into quite in depth about the older brother in that, but I don't think it's pertinent to this discussion.
Tana:There's lots of rabbit trails we could follow with this.
Don:Indeed.
Tana:Yeah. I think that's, I think that's a very, It's a very difficult thing for, I would say, people in the United States with our particular society and the way we've set up justice and the way we discuss the Bible even. And it's, first of all, I think we Christians in general kind of throw around the word evil a little bit too loosely.
Don:Oh yeah.
Tana:You know, everything that they don't like is evil.
Don:Yeah.
Tana:And then secondly, there's, like you said, there's no, uh, There's, there's not a lot of restorative justice happening, even within families. You know, it's, you're disowned, that's it. Um, and that is, that is, that is very sad because what you've discussed is that, you know, God, you're saying that there's all these different things that, uh, even though there's not an offering, it doesn't mean it's not forgivable.
Don:Sure. And I want to, you know, and I know you don't mean this because I'm estranged from my parents, uh, because my parents committed from my perspective, atrocities towards me. Uh, and though I would say I have forgiven them, I'm not interested in a relationship with them. And so there still seems from the outside to be severed ties from that. But I think, I think you're right. I think we tend to, well, and it's, it's the beauty of the scene in the garden, right? It's not something that you just simply know, which is something that makes me upset with A lot of like the Christian teachings I was raised with was that in some way that we inherently know the difference between right and wrong. Um, or that when you become a Christian, you, something gets downloaded into your heart and soul that helps you tell the difference between good and wrong. And the truth is, no, it's complicated. Life is complicated.
Tana:It's very complicated.
Don:And we can point to obvious situations and be like, you should know better. But the number of times that I've been in experiences and have participated in things that seemed okay, neutral, or even good, and then I walked away and learned something new or just mature, and I go, whoa, that was,
Tana:Right. Yeah.
Don:that was harmful. Yeah, that was bad. And so. To me, this is kind of what's going on in the garden is that God was telling humanity, I will walk with you as long as it takes for you to come to a place where you're healthy in your ability to judge well.
Tana:Yeah.
Don:And we left early. We were like, oh man, this course is taking too long and I'm out. I think I got the gist of this. I'm good.
Tana:Yeah. You said something earlier that sparked a thought and then quite honestly I was staring at the painting behind you and I immediately lost what the thing was I was gonna, I was gonna say and then the rest of what you were saying didn't spark that same thought so. Darn it.
Don:That was a very long way to say, you were interesting for a half second.
Tana:I wanted to graduate early from this conversation.
Don:Well I have a question. For me, my faith has gone many places. Not always. And maybe not even currently to the places that it, I was raised for it to be.
Tana:Mm hmm.
Don:And for me the, this idea of God as king and lawmaker
Tana:Mm hmm.
Don:When just stated, does not feel great.
Tana:Mm hmm.
Don:It doesn't even resonate with me.
Tana:Mm hmm.
Don:But, well I shouldn't say but I think a lot of our listeners who are going through deconstruction, who are wrestling with exactly what the Bible means and what the laws in the Bible actually, what power value they add and the God that they grew up being told about or that they converted to later, whatever it might be. As they've deconstructed, does this, does this discussion even still matter? And I'm not just talking about, like, on a moral basis, like, I think, you know, most people would argue we should strive for good morality regardless of belief system.
Tana:Yeah, yeah.
Don:I'm talking about when we define it using the Bible, should this even still matter today? Like, if you're going through deconstruction, you're not sure what you think about God. Does any of the stuff that we talked about, from what the Bible says, from what the Bible teaches, what the Bible expects, the Leviticus offering system, does any of that matter?
Tana:I feel like that is a very large... Question that we could dedicate an entire other podcast episode to.
Don:This is aJFF code for, I don't want to answer this right now. Because I do it all the time too. I think we can probably do several podcasts on this one.
Tana:No, I think, I think it's, I think it's a very large question, but I think it would kind of take us down a different route. Um, and I think what I kind of want to get back to is,"does it fundamentally change our view of God if God created evil?" Uh, and why would God create evil?
Don:Well, I think this goes back to my statement that I'm not sure that it was that God one day got out of bed on the wrong side, was in a pissy mood and was like, you know what? I think I am gonna cause calamity, right? I think that's how God has been taught, right? That God is grumpy, moody, whatever, and if we don't appease that God, that God then crushes us. Yeah. And I don't see that God in the Bible, unless I'm wearing the interpretive lens of fundamentalist Christianity. Right. So, does it change for me what I think about God, that God created evil? I would say no. In fact, what it does for me when I have a healthy perspective of it, it says what God created was Micah 6. 8. Humility, mercy, compassion, love, and generosity towards neighbor. Right? At least the system that Israel believed in and attributed to God was this system that was like the poor's voice matters just as much as the affluence. That a person who's been cut off from well being, a widow, right? That they're to be taken care of by the community. An orphan who is cut off from well being should be cared for by the community that there's all these rules some of them that we look at today and we go that's messed up But if we understood in its context, we would find that it was actually protecting people, right and when I read that I go, That means that if someone, if, if a group of people, the Israelites in this case, uh, and eventually Christians, um, adhere to those and say, that's the way I want to live, because that's a really good way to live. The people who are against that, who hear that and see that and go, no, don't take care of the widow, let them die. Orphans who caress. If their parents didn't love them, we don't love them. Mm. That's evil.
Tana:Mm-hmm.
Don:by God creating such a, and again, I keep saying God, creating, but Israel's understanding of how the world should work, that they attribute to God in that creation of those rules and laws and ideas of being on this planet, it, it makes evil apparent. And so I don't, when I think about this, did God create evil? I would say yes, only because the systems that Israel believed to be of God were so good and so valuable that the people that were against it are terrible people.
Tana:So it sounds almost like, bear with me for this for a second, almost like in order to create good, it's opposite must also exist. So like if we just were, if God just was, everything just was, we wouldn't have a concept that it was good.
Don:Correct.
Tana:If there was not an opposite of it to be juxtaposed. So it's almost like to me, it's almost like, um, I'm so bad at chemistry, but I feel like there's something, I'm good at chemical formulas, not good at chemistry. But, uh, like, Like you create something and then there's like a by product, you know?
Don:Yeah. I think water is a by product of a lot of chemical combinations.
Tana:Right. So like, it feels almost like, you know, like God's like, Oh, I want this good thing. And then it's also going to create this other thing, you know? But it also makes me feel like then the capacity for each must have also existed within God. I'm waiting for the lightning strike. Okay.
Don:I, I mean, again, I'm, I'm not, I'm not certain philosophically if that's necessary. Hmm. Right.
Tana:What?
Don:The look on your face is, I wasn't sure if you, it looked like you might have had something else to say.
Tana:No, I was just listening. Agreeing.
Don:So, I mean, it's like, if I, if I create light, that means that I've also created darkness. I don't ever have to be in the darkness. I don't like I can always just remain in the light.
Tana:That's interesting.
Don:So I don't, I don't know.
Tana:That's very interesting.
Don:And to me, that's a, that's an interesting question or assumption. And I just, I don't, I mean, I'd love feedback from our listeners, uh, on how you feel about that or what you think about that.
Tana:That actually, no, that is very interesting. Cause I'm thinking, well, if I, if I enter a dark room and I realize it's already dark to begin with, but, um, I turn on a light, there's going to be shadows cast by different things in the room because I brought out a light and my intention wasn't to create darkness. It was to illuminate. That's very interesting. And I almost feel like this might be too much of a stretch, I don't know, but I almost feel like we get that now where there's people who try to create good things. And then it just like, I even think about like somebody who's like, Oh, I'm just going to create this inspiring content on a social media platform. And then it brings out trolls. Like their intention was not to create trolls.
Don:Yeah. And, and here's something else. If we are taking the Bible at face value, like historically, God doesn't give any laws until Mount Sinai. Right. Which in history is about 6, 000 years ago, right? Like if we tried our best to align what the Bible says with historical process, it's only about 6, 000 years ago. Yeah. If like me, you hold that the planet is, you know, a couple billion years old, that's a relatively brand new concept. Yeah. And so I think you could look at the Sinai experience of Israel. They just came out of slavery. They just came out from this place of oppression. And they're retelling this story probably generations later because it's not, this isn't being recorded live, uh, when it happens. But as they're remembering what took place on Mount Sinai, I think there's this beautiful juxtaposition of we can either look back at Egypt where suffering and harm and the treatment of other humans was, was horrible. It was abusive. Um, and they justified it through really unhealthy ways. Or we could look to the peak of this mountain that demonstrates power and strength and imagined that the choice from that was, mercy, justice, and love. And that it's through mercy, justice, and love that power should come, not through oppression, devastation and murder like it was in Egypt. And so I think you can look and Israel wrote laws Um, compelled by a deity or not, the laws that were written down were a way for Israel to bring lightness to their own dark history and to keep them in the light so they didn't stray off of it and contribute to dark behavior that they had learned earlier in life. And when I think about it in those terms. It's then really beautiful. Yeah. I think what we do is we read the garden story, even though Israel meant it as a parable, not literal.
Tana:Mm hmm.
Don:And even though we read it as a parable and not literal, we still attribute it literally.
Tana:Yeah.
Don:That from the beginning, in the garden, God created good and evil.
Tana:Yeah.
Don:Well, that's, that's adding literalness to a parable. That we need to be careful of.
Tana:Yeah, fair.
Don:And so instead what I would argue is Israel developed a system that confronted the darkness in this world with a light. They called that light Yahweh. They called that light Torah. They called that light, um, loving your neighbor. And we can look at history And this small nation who has been accosted and enslaved and harmed and tried to be forced into extinction has used those ways of thinking about the world and treating others to still survive and continue to bring light to the world. Which is why the Bible is so interested always in taking the light to the world. Let your light shine through. Bring light into darkness. All of this language is because Israel imagines the way of God will always bring light.
Tana:Yeah.
Don:And therefore, call out darkness. Yeah.
Tana:Well, I feel like that's a beautiful sentiment and a great place to stop. Unless you have any final thoughts you want to offer.
Don:No, you're the boss, and if you say we stop, we're stopping.
Tana:Okay, how far can I extend this I'm the boss thing?
Don:I'm pretty sure you've extended it across all venues of our life. So,
Tana:All right, got to go. I have a lot of things to tell Don to do.
Don:People, I'm living in the dark.
Tana:Oh, so, uh, thank you all for joining us. And if you want to find us in between podcast episodes, you can find us on all the socials. Just look for Ancient Jesus Future Faith. We'll be there, or you can check us out at AJFFpodcast. com and we'll see you next time.
Don:Bye.