Transacting Value Podcast
Looking for ways to reinvigorate your self-worth or help instill it in others? You're in the right place. Transacting Value Podcast is a weekly, episodic, conversation-styled podcast that instigates self-worth through personal values. We talk about the impacts of personal values on themes like job satisfaction, mitigating burnout, establishing healthy boundaries, enhancing self-worth, and deepening interpersonal relationships.
This is a podcast about increasing satisfaction in life and your pursuit of happiness, increasing mental resilience, and how to actually build awareness around what your values can do for you as you grow through life.
As a divorced Marine with combat and humanitarian deployments, and a long-distanced parent, I've fought my own demons and talked through cultures around the world about their strategies for rebuilding self-worth or shaping perspective. As a 3d Degree Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do and a lifelong martial artist, I have studied philosophy, psychology, history, and humanities to find comprehensive insights to help all of our Ambassadors on the show add value for you, worthy of your time.
Ready to go from perceived victim to self-induced victor? New episodes drop every Monday 9 AM EST on our website https://www.TransactingValuePodcast.com, and everywhere your favorite podcasts are streamed. Check out Transacting Value by searching "Transacting Value Podcast", on Facebook, LinkedIn or YouTube.
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Transacting Value Podcast
Make Peace or Die: Honor the Fallen
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What does it mean to come home from war when so many never will? When Anthony Marquez returned from Afghanistan in 2011 after losing 17 brothers from his battalion, he carried more than memories – he carried a mission that would take years to fulfill. "Make Peace or Die" tells the extraordinary story of one Marine's journey to honor fallen comrades through art and remembrance.
Five years after deployment, Anthony began creating intricate chainsaw carvings for Gold Star families, transforming raw wood into living memorials. What began as personal healing evolved into something far more profound when he and his filmmaker brother Manny embarked on a 12,000-mile journey across America to document these families' stories.
https://www.pbs.org/independentlens/documentaries/make-peace-or-die-honor-the-fallen/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=du3Og3srq4I
https://makepeaceordiefilm.com/
Make Peace or Die: Honor the Fallen
A veteran uses hand-carved battlefield crosses to reconnect with families of fallen, fellow Marines.
(14:30) https://porthouse.kw.com/
(27:39) https://www.wreathsacrossamerica.org/Newsroom/WreathsAcrossAmericaRadio
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The views expressed in this podcast are solely those of the podcast host and guest and do not necessarily represent those of our distribution partners, supporting business relationships or supported audience. Welcome to Transacting Value, where we talk about practical applications for instigating self-worth when dealing with each other and even within ourselves, where we foster a podcast listening experience that lets you hear the power of a value system for managing burnout, establishing boundaries, fostering community and finding identity. My name is Josh Porthouse, I'm your host and we are redefining sovereignty of character. This is why values still hold value. This is Transacting Value.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:Almost 13, 14 years later Make Peace or Die comes out. Millions of Americans do know the name of Robert Greninger because Anthony heard that challenge from General Savage at his memorial, saying he died for millions of Americans will never know his name and Anthony thought I'm going to change that.
Josh Porthouse:All right, guys, welcome back to Transacting Value. Today we're talking about guilt and coping and what it means to move through a kinetic warfighting environment physically and then, after the fact, mentally. More importantly, how do you help families, friends that are gold star status, move through and process just the same to reintegrate back into society? We've got an awesome opportunity here today where we're talking with Anthony and Manny Marquez, the male lead and the producer for the documentary called Make Peace or Die, about One Five's deployment in 2011 to Afghanistan, and we're going to talk all about it. So, from SDYT Media, my name is Josh Porthouse, I'm your host and this is Transacting Value. Guys, what's going on, anthony, manny, how you doing.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:How you doing today.
Josh Porthouse:Good, how are you Good? Good Look, I appreciate the opportunity. You guys make it some time in your day. I know you don't have a whole lot, but I assume you're not like local celebrities. Or has this documentary skyrocketed your status? How's life so far?
Anthony & Manny Marquez:We're big in Japan. No, you know, I mean people know who we are because the movies had a good reception here in Tulsa and in Oklahoma. I played about five times at our local art house cinema. You know we've had a lot of support from the Tulsa film office, uh, tulsa film and music office, um, and then from our local OETA, which is our PBS station here, promoted it last year, hosting uh broadcast party for us, uh, with with the Tulsa film office. So you know, I mean I wouldn't say we're celebrities, but we've had a lot of support, community support, from for the film.
Josh Porthouse:Do you feel like you had that before you made this documentary? And, manny, you were the director, the producer. What was your role?
Anthony & Manny Marquez:Yeah, director.
Josh Porthouse:Director of the film and do you feel like you had that kind of community support before you made it?
Anthony & Manny Marquez:I mean? I mean me, and Anthony could answer that more. You know he's been. I was away for about 23 years and he was here. So, yeah, uh, yeah, I mean so with the chainsaw carvings, you know, here in the local area of tulsa, uh, the local news channels have done multiple stories on that and just different, uh, just different ways that I've been involved with uh different veterans and so, yeah, I guess there's been. The community has always been supportive of what we've done and what I've done with the carvings throughout this area well, okay, but so you made the carvings during the production phase of the documentary right? I actually did the carvings in 2016 to 2019 and I continue to do them. I've done 82 of them up to this point, but I started doing them in 2016, and so from 20 july 2016 to may of 2019, that's when I originally donated all the carvings to the 17 gold star families. We didn't start the film until uh may of 2021 oh wow, so you just happened to get b-roll footage while you were making them, or was that?
Anthony & Manny Marquez:We had made a short film called 17 Carvings about the creation of the carving for Joe Jackson's family and that we had that footage and then we had footage of him doing other carvings. So the way we built that in the movie was using that short film and using footage from the other carvings. But the carving of the, his mission, took place actually before the movie.
Josh Porthouse:Yeah, cool wow okay, and movie magic, you know yeah yeah, absolutely.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:That was kind of one of the premises of actually making the movie is what the families told me when I delivered the carvings to them um, they all said similar thing of how their son. They didn't want their son to be forgotten. So we decided the best way to do that was make a feature film to give the families a voice, and that's when we decided to make the movie.
Josh Porthouse:Okay, well, so let's talk through that a little bit Now. Obviously, as we're recording this right now, it's basically Memorial Day, weekend, memorial Day, timeframe of year, and there's, I think, on one hand, a lot of misrepresentation and ignorance around Memorial Day, maybe even the difference from that to Veterans Day, but also, from a firsthand perspective, what it means to have any sort of relationship with a Gold Star family. So can you walk me through that dynamic a little bit Memorial Day, veterans Day, some differences, gold Star families, and we'll just set the tone, what that is.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:You know, Veterans Day is for anybody who served. It's not for active duty, it's for veterans. The individuals who signed up, served, fulfilled their contract, were honorably discharged from the military or retired. So that's, you know, that's what Veterans Day is really around. And then Memorial Day is really built around memorializing, remembering the ones who gave their life in the service of the country. So those are the two distinct, you know, factors with Veterans Day and Memorial Day. We want to highlight Gold Star families all the time, but really, you know, they're entwined with what Memorial Day is.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:This movie originally had a Veteran Day release on PBS last year, november 11th, and it was great.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:We wanted to get it out as soon as we could and that was a great thing.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:We had 1.3 million viewers in the month of November on PBS last year and they came back to us this year and said hey, you know, this is such a great fit for Memorial Day and honestly it's a better fit for Memorial Day because of the nature of remembering the fallen and the Gold Star families that we agreed to bring the movie back on Memorial Day, and so I've just been so pleased with the outpouring so far this year. In the last week, you know, talking to people like you other podcasts, radio shows, news, news organizations, people really grasping what it means to remember the fallen and when you remember the fallen, you just don't remember them. You remember their families, because their families are still here dealing and surviving and healing, because their families are still here dealing and surviving and healing. And so the real impetus for the movie was to create a space for empathy that we could remember our Gold Star families. We've never seen a movie about Gold Star families, and so we saw a need to fill that void with Make Peace or Die.
Josh Porthouse:Okay, and the title? Then I initially thought it was like introspective. You know, like get it together or it's just going to eat you alive. You know the grief or resentment or survivor's guilt, anthony, was that a factor through the process or entitling the documentary?
Anthony & Manny Marquez:Yeah, manny's the one that came up with. Like there's multiple ways that people can perceive the title. Make Peace or Die is the motto for First Calumet, fifth Marines, and so when we're, you know, active duty, we're getting ready to go on a deployment. You know that's our motto Make Peace or Die. We're pretty much talking to the enemy, that we're telling them be peaceful or we'll kill you, kind of aspect. We're telling them be peaceful or we'll kill you, kind of aspect.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:Well now, after we're out, there's a different way that people can perceive that, view it. And you know you have to make peace with the things you saw, did, were involved with or, over time, it could kill you. And I, you know, and we fought to keep the name Make Peace or Die because PBS wanted us to change the name to about 15 different things. But at the end of the day it's so entwined with the story and the families and the marines and everybody who served it, just it just had to be that. So we added honor the fallen at the at the back end of it. So it's the title is make peace or die on the fallen. But we still go by, just make peace, die. I mean.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:I mean it just takes on different meanings when you, when you're in a time of war, it's like you make peace or die. You tell the enemy make peace or die. When you come home, you have to make peace or you will die. You know and like, and these families, the mission is never over, right, it just changes. And so, like that was what it came to me when we're making the movie, I said I told anthony, I said make peace or die. You have to make peace or you will die. These families have to make peace or they will die. It's eating them alive, and so that's the title. It's kind of interesting. When we did the spanish language translation for pbs, it was really interesting approving these translations, because the the phrase means different things and in english it's easier to catch the nuance, but in other languages it's harder, and so and so like Make Peace or Die was actually said like three different ways in the Spanish translation, because every time they said it it meant something different.
Josh Porthouse:Throughout the movie.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:Yeah, yeah, it actually changes the translation if you watch the Spanish subtitles, because the way we nuance it in English is hard to understand in Spanish. Anyways, I'm on sidetrack, but you know?
Josh Porthouse:Well, not necessarily as tangential as you might think. Because when we're talking about context, it's difficult as a storyteller on a podcast or a documentarian or a first-hand experiential let's say, service member individual, to be able to convey any of those lessons or perspectives or opportunities or insights or whatever to any other generation, let alone anybody else who just wasn't there. It's like trying to read a fiction book and teach somebody what it's like to be stranded on an island who's never left the United States. You just can't convey that stuff. And so when we're talking about context, I guess, anthony, in your case, what's it like in Sangan? Now, I deployed to Helmand, I was in Marja, but I didn't go to Sangan, and it is still a different environment between the two. So what was it like? Was it everything it was hyped up to be on the news and explosions everywhere and high stress and second-guessing every step? Or was there a little bit more humanity and you know, just a different way of view in the world? What's your take on the environment?
Anthony & Manny Marquez:I mean I think it was a little of all that. Um, you know, I, to be honest with you, I didn't watch a lot of news leading up to going on the deployment, but we were getting the updates from three, five, so that was like the real time updates from the marines on the ground, the unit who we were replacing. So and it was, it was brutal. The updates were brutal. You know another, they had multiple Marines killed, multiple Marines amputees, you know casualties, so it was like that weekly. So I think, like you said, like you mentioned, it's a little of all of that. I mean there's humanity in, like you mentioned, it's a little of all of that. I mean there's humanity in everything, there's beauty in everything, like there's the sunset, there is beautiful. You know like it's hot.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:So I had never been to combat before that deployment. I was with security forces the first three years of the Marine Corps so I did two non-combat deployments with them and I went to Cuba and Spain and Israel with different fast platoons. So that was my first experience with combat and I don't know how to explain. It's just when you get in that environment it just life becomes real because it's so fragile yeah, it was the same thing with us.
Josh Porthouse:I think maybe half of our patrol they were all partnered. But I think maybe half of our patrol they were all partnered. But I think maybe half of our patrols were dismounted on foot and half were mounted in a vehicle, and then I was a turret gunner whenever we were mounted. So it it, it really. Yeah, the fragility is a good way to put that. It really did crystallize it and sharpen it, and I don't know if it was just because, you know know, there was just months on end of endless adrenaline, or not endless.
Josh Porthouse:I guess we crashed pretty hard every day, but, you know, finding ways to process through that and then reintegrate. Obviously, in your case, though, uh, especially with one five and, for the record, while you guys were in sangin, I was just getting to marja. I was with first tanks at the time, but, yeah, still same same time frame, 2011 but what we're talking about getting situated and sort of reintegrating and processing you guys had, well, 17 casualties in five months. Yeah, that takes a toll. What was it like in in those five months? You still had to get up and you still had to go back out, but then also, when you got back to process and sort of make sense of the world.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:So I say in the film, uh, that you really don't have time to grieve when you're in combat. I feel like you just have to, you, you kind of have to accept the environment you're in to be able to function and then just, I mean, go with the flow, accept that you could be killed, you could get blown up, you could, you know, see your friend get killed. You have to be able to accept these things life altering or life ending, uh, instances that could happen any, any, at any point in any day and to be able to function. So it's, it's just when, when you come home, is when you can actually start to process and grieve, grieve all, uh, what you experienced and what you went through.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:So three, five had 25 Marines killed and we came in and replaced them. We had some, so we already knew we were going into something that was pretty bad. And you know, like I said, I had no combat experience outside of that, and a lot of guys in our platoon and in our unit they were pretty green too, they didn't have. They might've went other places, but they had no combat experience. And so it was.
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Anthony & Manny Marquez:It was all new to me, you know, but you have to get accustomed to it quick to be able to function.
Josh Porthouse:What did that kind of I guess, intentional distancing or detachment or I don't know cognitive dissonance? I mean like you had to learn that on the fly and then adopt it as a perspective and then try to drop it when you got home to go to you know whatever get groceries? Like how do you, how do you reconcile that kind of and then adopt it as a perspective and then try to drop it when you got home to go to you know whatever get groceries?
Anthony & Manny Marquez:Like, how do you, how do you reconcile that kind of distance? They say the military and the Marine Corps. They teach, they, you go through all this training, you go through you know, uh, you know, like building clearing, you do just all kinds of ranges, everything. They train you to go to combat and do the job, but then they don't. You're not, you're just young kids pretty much. You don't know how to process that.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:So when it happens, you just every everybody's different, they process it differently. Uh, and then, and then when coming home too, some people could just turn it off, some people can't. And then there's an aspect of some people come home and then they stay in the Marine Corps for another five years and they do two more deployments. So they're still around the environment of the military and the Marines who were with them. And then, like me, I got out five months after getting back from Afghanistan. So we got back in October of 2019 and I got out of the Marine Corps March of 2012. So and then, even then, I had my dog that I had on the deployment came back and she was gone within 30 minutes of being back in the States and I didn't think I'd see her. And then you know. So it's just. I don't know. I think it's just everybody processes it differently. I don't know, I don't, I don't know if you can be taught that.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:Yeah, I mean maybe there's a lot, lot. That's why there's counseling and therapists to help you figure things out.
Josh Porthouse:But well, it's a different subculture, I think in the united states at least. I can't speak to other countries, but I've I'd wager to bet it's pretty similar to other militaries and service members as well. But but it's a subculture, it's a psychographic that's difficult to describe and that was one of that scene. That was your dog, right, yeah, that's the dog. Yeah, that scene in the in the movie when you guys had to put her down, what happened?
Anthony & Manny Marquez:so I adopted ally in 2014 and um, so when we landed back in 2011, the company that contracts with the government, their civilian company they, they took her and took her back across the States and retrained her and put her with another handler and she did three more deployments. Well, in 2014, the program that the Marine Corps had, the IDD program that that, uh, obama did away with that program. So all the dogs in that program either went to law enforcement or they went to their handler. Since I was the first handler, I got a choice to adopt her. Since I was a first handler, I got a choice to adopt her. So I adopted her in July of 2014. And then she just old age. She was 13 and a half. She did 4 combat deployments. I had her for 7 years. She was almost 14 years old. She's 6 months, 5 months shy of 14 years old. She lived a long life. She had a hard life growing up.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:4 deployments Four deployments yeah, four deployments.
Ad:She had bread for that purpose and was in Afghanistan. She was whelped in 2008. Just over three years later, her and I were training together in Mahajan, viper, and then we went to Afghanistan Wow.
Josh Porthouse:That's cool, though. And then you ultimately to afghanistan wow, that's cool, though. And then you ultimately got her back then. What a cool story. At least that that's. That's pretty sweet, yeah, mary switzer helped with all that.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:Like here in oklahoma, coach switzer's a big icon with sports and football and uh, but he. That's how we. I got involved with coach switzer and he helped. He helped get alley back in 2014.
Josh Porthouse:Yeah, that's cool. Well, huge thanks to him, because that's a super cool opportunity that I'm sure is pretty uncommon, well. So, okay, let me ask you this, because I know at least, anthony, you're a little tight on time here, but with the let's call it assumption that Allie was part of your healing process, or getting Allie back was part of your healing process, what would you have done if you didn't? How would you have processed differently if you didn't get Allie?
Anthony & Manny Marquez:back, yeah, or was she the primary cause? When I first got out of Marine Corps in March of 2012, I came home in April, the next month, and I worked for the family business for 10 years. But so that April 2012, I adopted a Doberman cause. I didn't think I'd ever see Allie again. So I just gotten back from combat, you know, six months prior, and I had this dog that was with me through some traumatic instances in my life. So I was like I need another dog.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:I adopted, uh, a doberman roxy, uh the local rescue here in tulsa, and then, and then two years later, I adopted ally. So I had them both. I had to put roxy down in 2018 and and then I had ally and I had to put her down in 2021. Um, so she was a big part. Like I said, she was through a lot of things in my life through that deployment, and then I never thought I'd see her again. And then, when I did get her back, I knew the next time I lost her she would pass away. So I knew it was a good feeling and good to get her back, but I knew there was going to be a time that it would. Losing her was going to be like losing a relative, you know you know, she was she was a marine.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:She, it's a lot and I and a lot of people who watch the movie there, they always talk about the dog scene and it's like because they can relate, everybody has a pet. You know, um, but uh, but she was more than just a pet to me. But what life would have been like without her? I, um, I can't really guess what it would be like. I'm fortunate enough that I didn't have to figure out a different way of coping because I have her.
Josh Porthouse:Well, let me ask you these last two questions, anthony, and then Manny, I've got a couple for you as well, yeah, so then let's take the same sort of point and just flip it a little bit. You can't actively talk to Allie and expect responses. You know what I mean. You can't actively talk to Allie and expect responses. You know what I mean. You can't have a conversation to process and obviously, like in my case, hosting a podcast or you guys, you've got each other, but communicating all of the trauma or guilt, or just to help your brain process, makes a difference. So having a dog like Allie, or even Roxy, I'm sure, helps a lot, or any pet for that matter. But who'd you talk to, who'd you reach out to? How do you, you know, reconcile these things to reintegrate?
Anthony & Manny Marquez:um, so to go back to your question of like, when you talk to a dog, like like they don't respond. They won't answer but they listen. And I think that's the good thing, because a lot of times when we talk to somebody they don't know what to say, like just a friend. And they don't have to know what to say because a lot of times there's not, there's not a right answer to say there's not a right response. If somebody is having an issue, they might not have the resolution, the answer that resolves that problem, but they can sit there and listen. And the good thing with Allie is she could sit there and listen and she didn't judge, she didn't care, she just was support, without even realizing Dogs are that way to us, they're just support. Dogs are more than pets to people way to us, they're just support. Dogs are more than pets to to people.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:So, um, in ways, just having her to talk to her and because that was something too is her and I went through these things together. She experienced it with me. She didn't understand them, she didn't, you know, she can't comprehend or realize that, but just being able to talk to her and have her was, uh, it was a blessing and a help to me just because she was part of my life during that time. But then, outside of that, if I needed to talk somebody else, uh, I would just talk to people that I trusted, people that I uh were in the military. People that were in that my uh were in the military. People that were in that my same unit, maybe even in the same platoon that there's there's a handful of dudes that I would reach out to and talk to.
Josh Porthouse:I'm going to take a leap here, based on some firsthand experience that going through those kinds of coping mechanisms talking to people hanging out with your dogs, making this documentary, helping these families like you know, finding processes and roles for yourself to cope at times takes a toll on your self-worth, who you are, what role you fill in society, all of those kinds of things. So let me ask you this, I guess as a final question then, before you got to step out, anthony, that what, what types of, let's say, values did you find worked for you to stand on and rely on and sort of re-instigate your own sense of self and self-worth?
Anthony & Manny Marquez:So I grew up, you know, catholic we're catholic, uh, religious christians and then just the values, I think the values of being a marine, the values of being a man and the way that our parents raised us, uh helped me on on a straight and narrow. I guess I had my problems, like when I first got a marine. I had my issues, but I'm I'm fortunate I never got hooked on like substances, like drugs, uh, you know, like a lot of dudes do and come out and you know I've had my my issues, but I'm I'm fortunate I never got hooked on like substances, like drugs, uh, you know, like a lot of dudes do and come out, and you know I've had my bad thoughts myself and uh, um, but the values I just I don't know, I just always I think the Marine Corps instilled a set of values in me that I just continued with, even even to today. I mean the military made me in me that I just continued with, even to today. I mean the military made me. I think the Marine Corps made me who I am.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:And even people nowadays still ask that question, which you probably get what do you do it again? You know, I was like a year or so ago I was talking to a guy and he's like trying to get the question out. He was kind of beating around the bush. He was trying to ask the question without actually saying it and I just said, said yeah, I'd do it again because I mean that's just the best way. I know how to answer that question, just being the person I am. Um, I think everybody, you know everybody has free will to make their own choices. You got to figure out what values are best for you. But the marine corps helping still some good values in me and my parents and my family, our family, some good values in me and my parents and my family.
Josh Porthouse:Yeah, I definitely agree with that point specifically.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:I don't. I might look like a convict, but I'm not. Yeah.
Josh Porthouse:I don't particularly want to relive every moment, but I wouldn't trade any of it.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:Yeah.
Josh Porthouse:And it is an interesting sort of point. I think the Marine Corps does nurture quite a bit and shape quite a bit, but there's something to be said for what's natural too. So, since I know you've got to step out, I just wanted to say again, real quick, before you leave, thanks for putting this on the table. I don't mean the documentary, I mean your experience, I mean your perspective and, you know, to your, to your parents, for helping get you into a position, mentally and spiritually, where you could volunteer, not initially, um, you know, in 2008, 2009, but in 2012, in 2016, in 2021, to make this documentary, to help gold, gold star families, and just it helps. It keeps the legacy alive, but it also helps out of the memory. It also helps bring together a community, even just a subculture, that needs it.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:So thanks well, I appreciate it and I've said it before, but I think all the things that I've done out of the military is just because has come from a desire to continuing, continually wanting to serve in some aspect. So I'm not active duty, I'm not, I don't wear the uniform anymore, but it doesn't mean I can't do something in some way that to give back. So that's what I found was the carvings. What I found was trying to make the, you know, making the film, trying to get the stories out, so that's that's kind of uh, you mean, you don't have to wear a uniform, you don't have to be like in formation or in standing in a uniform to do some type of service. So yeah, but I appreciate you having me on, I got to get to this VA appointment.
Ad:Alrighty folks, sit tight and we'll be right back on Transacting Value. Alrighty folks, if you're looking for more perspective and more podcast, you can check out Transacting Value on Weeds Across America Radio, listen in on iHeartRadio Odyssey and TuneIn. Okay so, manny, I've got a couple questions about the production of this documentary and your ability to tell a story from, I guess you could say, a secondhand perspective that still is so impactful battlefield combat, casualty care, kinetic environments which you weren't physically in, and then the last, basically, decade of healing and processing, and I mean literally working through your family to help anthony get situated, communicate and convey these things for for his healing. So my first question, I guess what kind of a toll does that take on you?
Anthony & Manny Marquez:You know. So the thing is the work I do as a documentarian and I don't mean to be over the top or sensational, but it does take an emotional toll on me. My wife often jokes that I'm the woman in the relationship because I'm the emotional one. But as a documentarian I do take in a lot of emotion and feeling and kind of wear that on my sleeve a little bit and try to, you know, take on the emotion of the people my brother suffer when he was at some of the harder points in his life drinking too much, maybe suicidal he talks about in the movie. It was hard. I was at 3 am call. I was one of those people, one of the non-Marines he would call. You know, hey, man, I feel messed up right now. I feel like I just want to kill myself. I feel like you know, I'm at the bottom of a bottle whatever. And I feel like you know I'm at the bottom of a bottle whatever and I was one of those 3 am calls for him. That I think that's why we became so close after his time in the. I mean, we were brothers but became close as adults, as men, and he trusted me with his experience as his brother and it helped. By the time we started, you know, hey, I'm going to adopt Allie, let's make a short film. Hey, I'm going to do these carvings, let's make a short film. We kind of developed, you know, and so I started to understand how he was using these projects as new missions to help himself heal. And when the film became a thing that we started talking about, I knew that that would be the ultimate way to help him heal, like I tell I always. He knew that that would be the ultimate way to help him heal, like I tell I always. He didn't even want to be in the movie. He's like I want to go and I want to focus on these 17 families and I want them to tell the story of their son. And I said, yeah, anthony, but it's like Indiana Jones and the temple of doom. Nobody cares about the temple of doom until Indiana Jones tries to get into it, like you know. And so, like you have to be the person that connects these 17 families, because you're Anthony and you're the guy that cares and this is your story as much as it is theirs. And so I was able to bring that to him and he relented. I call him the reluctant hero, because it's like as a storytelling, it's like I don't want to do that but I'll do it because that's the best way to tell the story. But when we would go, you know? So my brother trusted me. It took years and years, almost 10 years trusted me with his emotion and feeling and healing, and then he trusted me to go into the homes of these people with him and and it was never sensational, it was never.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:Tell me about how your son died, tell me about when you, you know it was. Tell me about Jared, you know. Tell me about Joe, tell me about John, you know. And then that's, that's it was. Tell me about Jared, you know. Tell me about Joe, tell me about John, you know, and then that's, that's how it was. Like I have interest as a filmmaker and as a human being and as the brother of a Marine that served with your son, to know who your son was, who was he to you? And then it just opened conversations. And they were just open conversations. They weren't, they weren't, they weren't. There was no pressing, there was no gotcha journalism, it was conversations. You, know.
Josh Porthouse:Well, you guys went all over the place, right Like. I don't remember the exact order off the top of my head, but 34 states, 12,000 miles, 40 days on the road.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:Yeah, it was. It was amazing.
Josh Porthouse:Wait a minute, you did all that only in 40 days.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:Yeah, I mean the on the road. Yeah, it was. It was amazing, wait a minute, you did all that only in 40 days. Yeah, I mean, the majority of the movie was in 40 days. There were some scenes, like, you know, pendleton came five months later and there was one family that couldn't meet us because the dad was a covid um, nurse or something, and the covid was raging it like, so we had to go back. But 90 percent of the movie was shot in the 40 days on the road. Yeah, yeah, and that was a.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:That was a device I had kind of come up with. You know, it was like as a filmmaker, you're always kind of looking for a device like how can I package this? Oh, let's get two brothers in an RV and go on the road. Okay, you know, we could have gotten to a minivan, it would be a little less romantic. Um, you know, we could have gone to a geo metro, but it's like let's get into an rv and we. And it turned out to be like the right move for us as a film production, because we were a film production too and we had a table in there and we had computers set up and download stations and battery charging stations and you know lighting, lighting compartments underneath the rv where we had certain state like it became a practical device as much as it did a vehicle to travel.
Josh Porthouse:That's a cool idea too, yeah. So what did that do? Because a lot of people families specifically start to build some kind of relationship or underpinning for a relationship. It's in small doses 40 days between the two of you, within 10 feet of each other all the time. Did that cause some state?
Anthony & Manny Marquez:We didn't argue much, I mean. I mean I'll be honest and it's the elephant in the room and we do address it slightly in the movie. But I'll say, like you know, there's other movies that address this. There's. This was not a movie about the withdrawal. This was a movie about the withdrawal had just happened when we went on the road in 21, the withdrawal from Kabul.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:We had decided from the outset this is not a political film, it's not a pro-war movie, it's not an anti-war movie, it's a pro-empathy and pro-healing movie. And so you know, when we went on the road, some of my more liberal left friends would say you really got to press them on what they think about you know, Obama or Biden or Bush or this and this, like we're not doing that. And some of my more conservative friends are like you got to blame Joe Biden and you got to say we're not doing that, we're going to tell the story about their son and that's that's the story we're going to tell. It's not a political movie, but we do address. We do address the withdrawal in the movie. You hear Anthony listening to a podcast about it and we do. And we do ask a few families and, um, we have to.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:It was the elephant in the room. But the only time we only ever argued was one time about the withdrawal. But we were just talking about the withdrawal and we, we just went back and forth and argued with each other and then we were over it, I mean. But we were 40 days on the road. We didn't argue about the way to make the movie. We didn't argue about what we were going to put in the movie. We didn't. Anthony trusted me and it's always flattered me, humbly flattered me that he's told people I've heard him tell. He doesn't tell me this, he's told other people. I like the way my brother tells stories. That's why I wanted to make the movie with him and feel honored that he trusted me with that.
Josh Porthouse:You know what I mean. So it's like we didn't really argue at all. We just argued that one time about one fine point, about the withdrawal, but what the hell do, I know well, so, uh, apparently quite a bit. Now you've made, uh, some inroads throughout this documentary to illustrate, you know, with stock footage or b-roll or first-hand accounts and actual video document, uh documented from deployments, well, actually from that deployment.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:Yeah, that footage is from Nate McCord. He was combat photographer for 1-5 at that time, so that footage is from that deployment. That's not stock, that's not, you know, just random Afghanistan footage footage. That is the deployment.
Josh Porthouse:I mean, they're literally in trenches getting rained on by rocks during mortar fire. Yep, how did you come to the idea that you wanted firsthand footage, give or take, seven or eight years after the fact, ten years after the fact, and then actually track this guy down to get it?
Anthony & Manny Marquez:so there were two things we said we didn't want to make because we felt like they've already existed. We didn't want to make a combat movie because you have movies like, um, what's the restrepo? Oh yeah, great movies, great movies, but they're super combat footage, heavy, obviously, um. And we didn't want to make a cemetery movie where it's just 17 cemeteries. You know there are cemeteries in the movie and it's appropriate. But we wanted to make a movie that goes beyond just the battlefield and the cemetery, because so many movies fall into that kind of kind of pattern. I think, um, we have both of those things, but we're we're sparing with them. Um. But the thing we did too was we never wanted the combat footage to be sensational. We never wanted to see someone getting blown up. We never wanted to see somebody dead. We never wanted to see. You know, even when you see Robert Grineger being Kazovac, it's mostly photos because, it removes you.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:You see the chopper and then you see the photos and it removes you a little bit from the real, visceral nature of that actual. You know, it's just everything we did. We wanted to be respectful to the families and respectful to what we were saying, without trying to make a spectacle of their deaths and like so. That was like a real balance to do that and I think we achieved that. And everything that's combat footage and combat related is in support of the story. It's never sensational, you know. I mean even the scene with the Afghan children, I mean it's my favorite, it's one of my favorite scenes, it's one of the most like you know. You know Gonzalez writing his grandmother saying pray for these little children. They're no different than my, they're no different than my children. Yeah, who was that? That was Gonzalez's fatheron, gonzalez senior read it.
Josh Porthouse:Yeah, okay, out of the book yeah yeah, that was cool you know that's combat too, though right, that's what I was gonna say there's a support role, yeah, yeah, and that's and that's like from my perspective. I'll tell you this when I watched it just two days ago okay, when I watched the documentary, as soon as it was over, I sent it to my mom and my friends and my family and some other, uh, veteran organizations I work with here in the area. I said you guys got to watch this, but it was for two reasons. One, cause it was just really well done and it was. It was engaging from start to finish for me. But it wasn't like it put me back into a position that I wasn't ready to process. It put me in a position that I was able to process. But the second thing I really really, really like about how you told this story in the movie is it also showcased for people like me, veterans, service members, whichever the other other side of the coin.
Josh Porthouse:I get home I don't ask my family how was that for you? Because I generally don't care, I'm detached, I'm still doing my own thing and life in the military happens so fast by the time I even consider asking anybody else. What did you think? How was the last couple of months for you other than we mowed the yard and took out the trash. You know what'd you hear on the news? How was it? What did you go through? I'm already on to the next training exercise, or you know, I I don't even think about it, but you told that story.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:I think, effectively there was a thing that we did in the movie um, and I like to say this, and I mean this very respectfully a lot of guys and women, I'm sure, come home and they want to tell their story of their deployment or their experience or they want to kind of heal somehow cathartic way, and they've made a lot. I've seen a lot of videos made um and anthony and I talked about this. There's a kind of a genre of veteran video on youtube. You know, this was my deployment. I interviewed five guys here's my commander, blah blah. But they and I mean this in the most respectful way they don't. They're not movies, they're like video journals or video diaries.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:And Anthony said, anthony said to me like this has to be a movie, this, this can't be a YouTube video. Like this has it means and I was so happy to hear him say that it has to exist as a piece of cinema first, and it was like I think that's it, man, because as a filmmaker we can make movies all day about deployments and loss and the fallen, and but if we can't deliver in a package that that takes it beyond just the YouTube kind of portrayal that you see in a lot of things, and I mean it fully respectfully. It has to feel like a movie. You have to watch it and go man, there was some great cinematography in that. That was amazing.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:There was some good music there was, there was great pacing there was. Wow, it sounded good. The audio wasn't bad. Like it's a movie. It is a movie and so when people sit down to watch it, they've seen a movie, and now they've seen a movie about 17 Gold Star families and 17 fallen Marines that they've been entertained. They've also been informed and it wasn't hard for them to watch because it was well done and I think that and I'm not saying that because I made.
Josh Porthouse:I'm saying that that was the goal, you know, yeah, but I imagine you're getting objective feedback from total strangers confirming that.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:I mean, I can tell you you, you know, I'm not not to be political like. I've had people that are by far not patriotic in their politics, they're maybe even far left say, I am against a military, but I love your movie, like people. It's not like I've never, I've never supported military stuff, but I love your movie. You know, um, and I'm like, well, you know we were changing, we, because we presented a movie, not propaganda, we presented a movie and I think you did very well.
Josh Porthouse:Yeah, it, it flowed, it had impact, but it had levity too. It wasn't all difficult, difficult to digest. Some of it was relatable and, like I said, I haven't been to Sangan, but that's like saying you know, I've, I've been to the United States and so have you. Okay, well, tulsa is not Tampa, which is where I, you know it. Sure, but there's differences the culture, the environment, the setting, the way people communicate, how things, I guess, trigger certain people, certain people. You know it changes and dude you. Just, you nailed it, it was really good well, thank you.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:You did say something at the beginning of the podcast about humanity. Yeah, and and I and I say that to anthony all the time like that's back to the the afghan children scene. They're like my children, they're no different than my children, it's like there is a shared humanity we all have in. In that shared humanity we understand several things we understand loss, we understand pain and like. In that we understand at least. A good friend of mine who's a filmmaker said this is not a movie about healing it's. It's a movie about the search and attempt to heal that may never come. And I was like you know he might be right, because that wound may never fully scap, it may still bleed. We just try to stop the bleeding a little bit and do it together, you know. And so like that, that's that's what I think we try to accomplish. And you know, a lot of these families didn't know each other before Anthony, you know. And so one of the moms in the movie says you know, you have one stick and you try to break it. It's easy. You take 17 sticks and you try to break it. It's a lot harder.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:So the XVII, the 17 that Anthony came up with, those 17 men that he honored through his carvings and through this movie. Now those people have that gold star. Those gold star families have become a family because of Make Peace or Die and because of the work of Anthony. So for him it was hard to see that he still had a mission. And he talked about it earlier, like oh, I'm not in uniform, I'm a shitheel, I'm not doing these things. Like no, I have a different mission. And now I see it, you know, and like that. That was when that clicked for him, when we were making this movie. He told me one day I see that this is my mission now. And it was like he's like I can you know? And now he's married, he has three children.
Josh Porthouse:He's, he's come along. You know he's come a long way. Yeah, well, good for him. And, like I said, for the both of you, being able to foster that degree of empathy and healing is difficult from a first person perspective. A second person perspective, it's just tough to communicate because, I think, you know, value systems are invisible, they're communicated only through action and we're so inculcated with only paying attention to what's verbal or what's written. And the whole documentary for me could have been a silent movie and I think you would have only have lost a little of your audience. It was awesome, dude, and I don't know how to say that anymore impactfully, but it was really well done. And so when you look back and these are really my last two questions for you when you look back on making the documentary, helping Anthony process and then your own personal journey, which I'm sure you grew throughout that as well, what are some of the key lessons that you learned about conveying that kind of degree of resonance and empathy and healing to total strangers?
Anthony & Manny Marquez:Jared Verbeek's mother, rosalia Verbeek. They're in Visalia, california. We went to film with them and she made us breakfast. She wanted us to have breakfast before we filmed. Very kind of her and we sat down. She sat down, put a mic on her and I just said tell me about Jared. And she just lit up like the state fair. She said, right there, you a complete stranger. I've never met you in my life. You saying Jared, say it again Jared, jared, jared.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:I never want anyone to stop saying his name. That's why I do this, because I want people to know the name of my son and who Jared Verbeek was. And it was like we were at, we were off to the races and it. It taught me immediately that, like I just have to be a conduit to provide a platform for these families. They have everything they want to say. They know what they want to say. They love their son, they love their husband, they love their father. They know what they want to say. I just have to, being a director, literally I just have to be there to listen and like, corral them into a way that narratively makes sense. But I don't do anything, but just provide the space.
Josh Porthouse:Do you find that you do that? Well, I'm lying now. This is my second to last question.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:Do you find that you've done that more regularly now since starting this documentary, just in regular conversation with family friends, that you give them more space to be human, or are you still just sort of you know your own individual and I've been a filmmaker now for 25 years in some way or fashion, from from being a production assistant grabbing coffee to being a director of two feature docs and and you know I direct, you know, short form docs as as my daily living, basically. But I've become, I think, more charitable, which is something like I I don't go into anything with an agenda anymore than I really other than I have to if it's a client or something, but in the, in the work, my own work, I just want to be um, in a mode of discovery and receptiveness. That that is charitable. And like open to everyone's experience and like not prejudge who they are or what they've been through and like to me, make peace or die made me a better filmmaker. Because I think you go, oh, I'm a director, I've been doing this 25 years, I know what i'm'm going to do, I know what I'm going to say, I know what I'm going to ask. I have no idea in hell what I'm doing. I need to go and let the story be what it is, and there were 17 different stories plus Anthony's that needed to coalesce and that was a massive undertaking.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:How do you take 160 hours of footage and make a 90 minute movie that that is engaging and makes sense. You know, and there's a lot of humility to your editors, to your collaborators, to my brother's opinion, and still maintaining control of the ship because somebody has to go. You guys are thank you for that. But no, hey, that's better than my thing, thank you, I hadn't even thought of that. You know, I'm not a marine, thank you. That makes more sense, like it's just really being um, open and charitable to what comes at you, but humble enough to, uh, you know, take, take those things, and then strong enough to trust your own creative instinct, because there's a reason why you've been given this vocation.
Josh Porthouse:What does that kind of stewardship do to instigate your own self-worth?
Anthony & Manny Marquez:Oh gosh, you know. I mean, like Anthony said, we are religious guys. I don't know, I don't think I'm a great person, I'm a sinner like anybody else, but I do think that I have a certain talent that God has given me to listen to people and to tell stories, and I've never denied that. It's like I used to be like I don't know faux, faux, humble or something. Oh no, you know, now I'm like, no, you know what, I am good at that, and like I'm, I'm gonna own that because, um, I think that's a gift. I think it's a gift that you've been given and that you have to own those gifts.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:We're given a lot of grace and we have to. You know, I think flannery o'connor said like sin is often, um, the offer of grace refused, you know, and and and it's like we have to look at that and go like, okay, if that's what sin is, then what's the opposite of that? Well then, I need to accept that grace, you know, and if that grace, part of that grace, is being the ability to tell a story, and the ability to tell a story can help heal a gold star family or my brother from blowing his own brains out, then maybe that's a grace I have to accept, you know.
Josh Porthouse:Yeah, yeah, that's heavy too.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:Yeah, sorry.
Josh Porthouse:I didn't mean to go, so no, no, no, not at all, it's totally valid. I mean, giving some dignity to other people and space to other people is way easier than giving it to yourself. But yeah, being in a position where you can start to identify, giving yourself some grace throughout that transformation is, I think, unequivocally important.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:I hope we can just keep doing this and we can tell more stories and you know it's like I said, it's what I do for a living. But there's other veteran stories we want to tell. I'm working on a Vietnam story right now, actually about some Marines.
Josh Porthouse:And so trying to get funding and just trying to trying to do the next thing you know so well, let's, let's stay in touch. I think I've got a couple outlets that may work well for you, either for sponsors, contributors or just assistance with your documentaries. I'm, I'm totally down, man. I agree wholeheartedly with anthony. I think your ability to tell a story well, based exclusively on the fashion you did in Make Peace or Die, is phenomenal.
Josh Porthouse:It was just really good, awesome job, man. So let me say this We've talked about it now for the last hour. We've mentioned that it was on PBS November 2024. And then obviously, this Memorial Day weekend, 2025. But where do people find it? How do people get in touch with you guys to, I don't know, see it.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:Well, you can go to our website, makepieceordiefilmcom and you can contact us from there. The film is available on PBS for free PBS Passport app until June 21st and it's available on the PBS YouTube until June 21st for free. Pbs Passport app until June 21st and it's available on the PBS YouTube until June 21st for free.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:I can say, without saying too many other things, we're in talks with another distributor that we're trying to get a theatrical release for it. We do think that, despite the run it's had on television, which has been great, we could get some traction and there's still an audience in the theaters for this, and so we're working on theatrical distribution and then we're working on further home streaming options that would be on just PBS. But we've been really thankful to PBS because they we were turned down from 15 mainstream film festivals and you can imagine name 15 of them, the three of them off the top of your head and you're going to guess right. We were turned down from 15 film festivals and pbs saw the film and saw the value and saw that it represented a large swath of what america is and they offered to put it out on independent lens and we're very grateful for that outlet because it's been very, very, uh, rewarding for us and for our Gold Star families.
Josh Porthouse:I mean, you've got billions of people now that have seen this story and watched this documentary that you guys have impacted from just for 90 minutes of their lives and you could have potentially altered the next 70 years for each of them.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:When Robert Grineger died, anthony was on the base and they were having the memorial, you know in country. He was holding the flag when General Savage came up and said he wasn't a general then but he was their commander and he said this man died for millions of Americans that will never know his name. And Anthony put that into his head. He was standing there holding the colors and he put that into his head and he goes. I need to change that. Americans need to know who he is. And 10 years later, make Peace or Die camp we made Make Peace or Die Almost 13,. 14 years later, make Peace or Die comes out and millions of Americans do know the name of Robert Greninger because Anthony heard that challenge from General Savage at his memorial, saying millions of Americans he died for, millions of Americans will never know his name. And Anthony thought I'm going to change that.
Josh Porthouse:I think he has. It's super cool. I again really appreciate the opportunity to talk to you and Anthony about the documentary, about each other, about the experience, about filming it. But honestly, I don't know if I can say more importantly but I don't know a more appropriate phrase I really really appreciate the fact that we were also able to showcase that there's another perspective about these operations, about these deployments, about these experiences and just what we go through firsthand. I've never seen it, I've never heard it. I may have been told it before, but I've never listened. And you took me through 90 minutes of yeah, but what about everybody else? And so that may not have been your intention necessarily, but for me it was just really good man, it was really cathartic, it was an awesome opportunity. So I hope you continue to tell these stories, I hope you continue to put content out and make more documentaries, but at least for right now, I'm really really glad you were able to get it on PBS Passport, because that's where I watched it, yeah, well thank you.
Anthony & Manny Marquez:Yeah, we appreciate you watching it and I'm sorry, anthony, couldn't stay longer, but you know how the VA is. You got your appointment, you got to go.
Josh Porthouse:Yeah, yeah, no problem. No problem at all. I think we will stay in touch definitively and obviously this is going to get streamed on Reads Across America Radio, it'll be on Audible, it'll be on iHeart, it'll be on TuneIn and Odyssey and everywhere else. Everybody listens to their most favorite awesome podcasts all the time, whatever they do when they listen to them. But for right now, I'd also like to thank all of our supported and supporting organizations like Florida Veterans Coalition, race Across America Radio, firewatch Magazine, the American Legion, florida Association of Veteran-Owned Businesses and everybody else, obviously, who's had a hand becoming an ambassador and telling people about Transacting Value.
Josh Porthouse:If you guys enjoyed this conversation and then you're going to love the rest of our conversation, so head over to transactingvaluepodcastcom. You'll find a link to listen to this conversation and in the dropdown or, depending on the player, you're streaming it on, click, see more, click, show more, and you will then see links to the film website for makepieceordiefilmcom. You'll be able to get in touch with Anthony and Manny there as well and then obviously, like just heard Manny say, until June 21st, you'll also be able to find links there to get to PBS Passport and PBS YouTube be able to watch it for free. So I appreciate this opportunity to hang out and talk with you guys. I hope you guys enjoyed the conversation as well, but until next time that was Transacting Value. Thank you to our show partners and folks. Thank you for tuning in and appreciating our value as we all grow through life together.
Josh Porthouse:To check out our other conversations or even to contribute through feedback, follows, time, money or talent and to let us know what you think of the show, please leave a review on our website, transactingvaluepodcastcom. We also stream new episodes every Monday at 9 am Eastern Standard Time through all of your favorite podcasting platforms like Spotify, iheart and TuneIn. You can now hear Transacting Value on Reads Across America Radio. Head to reedsacrossamericaorg. Slash transactingvalue to sponsor a wreath and remember, honor and teach the value of freedom for future generations. On behalf of our team and our global ambassadors, as you all strive to establish clarity and purpose, ensure social tranquility and secure the blessings of liberty or individual sovereignty of character for yourselves and your posterity, we will continue instigating self-worth and we'll meet you there. Until next time. That was Transacting Value.
