Finding Love After Trauma with Dana Nygaard

What defines your self-worth after experiencing domestic abuse? How do you recognize the red flags in potential partners when your sense of normal has been warped by past trauma? Licensed Professional Counselor Dana Nygaard takes us on a powerful journey through these questions in this deeply personal and practical conversation.

 "Good guys don't call you names. That's not what good men do."

(16:20) https://www.wreathsacrossamerica.org/Newsroom/WreathsAcrossAmericaRadio

(26:37) https://porthouse.kw.com/

(38:19) https://www.transactingvaluepodcast.com/life-after-30-years-of-military-service-with-sarah-williams/

Purchase Dana's book 365 Dates to Renew Your Christian Marriage - Catholic Edition: Increasing Your Emotional Intimacy One Question at a Time here: https://www.amazon.com/Dates-Renew-Your-Christian-Marriage/dp/1736683802

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Transacting Value
• 1:29 Meet Dana Nygaard: Relationship Coach
• 5:39 From Teaching to Therapy
• 14:27 Recognizing Abuse Patterns
• 29:25 Living in Reality vs. Fantasy
• 39:05 Developing Character: Values Discussion
• 51:55 Directive Therapy Approach
• 54:23 Resources and Closing Thoughts

Transcript

Josh Porthouse: 0:00

The views expressed in this podcast are solely those of the podcast host and guest and do not necessarily represent those of our distribution partners, supporting business relationships or supported audience. Welcome to Transacting Value, where we talk about practical applications for instigating self-worth when dealing with each other and even within ourselves, where we foster a podcast listening experience that lets you hear the power of a value system for managing burnout, establishing boundaries, fostering community and finding identity. My name is Josh Porthouse, I'm your host and we are redefining sovereignty of character. This is why values still hold value. This is Transacting Value.

Dana Nygaard: 0:49

Part of this is not settling and the person's going to be human and to be a healthy human being, you have to know you have weaknesses and you're going to make mistakes. So it's not asking someone to be perfect, but they need to be the perfect person for you.

Josh Porthouse: 1:08

Today on Transacting Value. How do you describe, how do you identify who you are and who you become and your worth, especially when the place you come from involves abuse domestically, verbally, maybe even physically or in any other relationship? Today's guest we're talking with licensed professional counselor and relationship coach, dana Nygaard. All about where women can get free help and go from miss to missus. Here today on the show, I'm Josh Porthouse, I'm your host and from SDYT Media. This is Transacting Value, dana. How are you doing?

Dana Nygaard: 1:48

Great. How are you today?

Josh Porthouse: 1:49

I'm doing well, thank you. I appreciate you making time out of your schedule, by the way, to come talk. I know you've got clients and a life and everything else, so thank you first off.

Dana Nygaard: 1:57

Thank you. I want to thank you for having this platform.

Josh Porthouse: 2:01

Yeah Well, I appreciate you saying that too. It's, and it's interesting, you know, talking to people I think we're creeping pretty closely to around 200 or so on the show. Incredible, all about self-worth and value systems. And one thing I hadn't really considered to this point, I guess, cause most of my perspective is rooted in occupational changes to, you know, roles and identity and worth and values I hadn't really ever considered in the context of a relationship, or even an abusive one, but as a consideration, marriage, which is your whole focus, right?

Dana Nygaard: 2:36

Yes, because that's the desired role that these women feel that God has placed upon their heart. And they're looking around, thinking either where are the men? No one's asked me out. Or they're thinking why do I keep attracting these unhealthy men or nice men, but they're just not the right guy for me and they're lonely. And then time is ticking and they want to have babies most of them and they're starting to freak out about that and they want to find true, deep, abiding love.

Josh Porthouse: 3:07

Yeah, and now I also for the record. I understand your primary clientele is all female or mostly women, All.

Dana Nygaard: 3:15

For relationship coaching all female. For my private practice, which is only in Texas, it's individuals. It can be male or females and couples also.

Josh Porthouse: 3:24

Okay, all right, cool. So then, I think what might be interesting in this conversation too, is I'm going to pick your brain a little bit from a male perspective, as it applies to some of these marriage considerations as well. But for right now, since we're just getting started out, for anybody who's tuning into the conversation or watching it here and doesn't know you what we're talking about or what you talk about, let's just take a couple minutes. Who are you, where are you from, and what sort of things are shaping your perspective on life as these matters are applied?

Dana Nygaard: 3:52

Well, I'm a fifth generation Texan and I taught school. I'm very proud of that. My son is a sixth generation and the seventh generation I hope and pray are also born in the States. We can continue that legacy. I taught high school, secondary education for 16 years before transitioning into going back to grad school, while working full-time, while dealing with breast cancer and that was my second time to have cancer. So, thank you Lord, I'm still here today yeah, it's pretty incredible and becoming a licensed professional counselor, and I'm a mom of one. So we have a son who is 30 and I have the most delightful husband, david. Anyone who knows my husband they actually sigh and tilt their head At least the women do. They go David, because he's just so precious and delightful and makes me laugh, and he is the salve to the wounds of my past, of my childhood, of being married before.

Josh Porthouse: 4:52

Wow, what a compliment that is. He's amazing. Thank you Lord.

Dana Nygaard: 4:57

I'm so grateful for him and he's grateful for me and I appreciate that. I'm always thinking like, what would I do without this wonderful man? That is, I think, a gift from God. He has a servant's heart. He really does. It takes a lot to rile him and I'm the spicy, feisty one and he's that, you know, calm, you know poured in the storm. He's just amazing.

Josh Porthouse: 5:22

Wow, well, dave, congratulations, yeah, yeah, now okay. So all of these things, I assume came from somewhere. You didn't just stop teaching high school and you're like I'm tired of the high school pregnancies and mismanaged relationships, let me make it a career. So what led to all of this?

Dana Nygaard: 5:45

Well, I kept having parents come to me because I was a psychology teacher. I taught a little US history. I began my teaching career teaching English as a second language. But the whole reason why I went into teaching and how I ended my teaching career was high school psychology. So I taught regular level, advanced placement and then the two levels of international baccalaureate.

Dana Nygaard: 6:04

And so by the time these kids graduated at least the IB students they were almost little mini therapists themselves. And their parents would come to me and say this is what my daughter is doing, she's in her head about, like you know, she's a swimmer. She's in her head suddenly she's losing races, what do I do? And I would look at them like I don't know, I'm just a psychology teacher. And they wouldn't leave. And so I'd open up the book and I'd say this is what the book says about sports psychology. Here's an idea. And the parents, they apparently they all talked, because they all started coming to me and they said it worked. And I thought, ok, I can now apply this to a deeper level. Now I am very proud that I have many former students. They're all grown and out of school now because I'm getting old and I have a lot of psychologists and psychiatrists that came from my program.

Dana Nygaard: 6:56

So it was very exciting and I just came home to my husband and said I want to go to grad school and we were newlyweds at the time and he said what do I need to do to make this happen?

Dana Nygaard: 7:08

And our son was in a high school but we had to drive about 30 minutes away. It was a private Catholic school and so my husband, just he dove in deep and just the best stepfather ever and he took our son back and forth and cooked meals and sat there with me when I cried over how am I going to get this paper written in this little amount of time? Post-grade, all my students' essays and you know it was a lot, but it's one of the best decisions, besides having my son and marrying my husband, that I've ever made in my life is to go through the grind of becoming an LPC, because it's roughly five years from beginning to end. Once you get your, you go through the national testing you have to pass, you have to get 3000 postgraduate hours before you are fully licensed. So it's five years of a really tough grind with no money coming in and money just going out.

Dana Nygaard: 8:02

And my husband said I'm all, I'm all in for it, but it's still one of the best things I've ever done.

Josh Porthouse: 8:07

Well, he does sound delightful.

Dana Nygaard: 8:09

It's amazing.

Josh Porthouse: 8:10

That's crazy and so okay, talking through well, 3000 hours plus of of therapy with clients I assume couples and individuals.

Dana Nygaard: 8:23

It depends on how you, how you want to go about it. As long as you have 1,500 face-to-face with people and the other 1,500 can be more trainings, your paperwork, your books you're reading, but even 1,500 hours, it takes roughly 18 months for most people.

Josh Porthouse: 8:41

Okay, yeah, so that is a sizable amount of time, and you decided to focus all of it on abuse victims.

Dana Nygaard: 8:50

No, it's interesting Once I got through my training and did work with abuse victims because I worked at the amazing, magnificent Children's Advocacy Center of Collin County. It's one of the premier advocacy centers in the US. So everyone like the things you heard on TV. Be like what happened to this little four-year-old, what happened to this family of an eight nine-year-old? What did a coach do? Those are the kids we got. Then we also worked with their parents, because now you're the parent of a kid who maybe was abused by someone in your family. Why didn't you notice the creepy neighbor was there. Maybe it's not your fault, but then how do they deal with that? And a lot of the parents also came from a history of being abused in different ways, and so I did start off my career that way.

Dana Nygaard: 9:36

But in my private practice it was interesting when couples come to me. A lot of couples come because they just want they love each other and they just want to improve their connection. They want to deepen that emotional intimacy. I actually wrote a book on that very topic with over a thousand questions to deepen that connection. However, that was this many people, most of them that came one of the spouses in my personal experience I don't mean this is statistically what it is, but in my practice, where the husband is a narcissist and then the single women come to me and say, hey, I'm dating, you know, john Doe, and here's what John said today I'd be like, oh, that's a lovely, that sounds nice check. And then they say, but then he did this. And I'd be like, okay, that would actually fall under abuse and they would immediately push back. And it was like, okay, that would actually fall under abuse and they would immediately push back. And it was like they had all read the same script. What's an example? What do you?

Josh Porthouse: 10:31

mean.

Dana Nygaard: 10:31

So an example would be he said that he has been sober from pornography for so long, a certain amount of time, and then the other day the topic came up somehow and I could tell from his face something was going wrong there. And when I pushed a little bit, sure enough, that was never true. I've never been sober. I've lied to you every time you've checked in with me. Hey, still checking, you're making sure things are good. Ok, I've lied to you every time. Or let's say, the man does the typical gentlemanly things open car door, stands up for a woman when she enters and leaves the room, okay, all those beautiful things. And then they'll say, almost as a side note until I was late the other day not my fault, I'm never late. Traffic, it was on the news. I was 10 minutes late. I even let him know what was happening and he screamed at me for 20 minutes and then he called me a blankety blank. He said what word? The B word, the C word? What happened?

Dana Nygaard: 11:31

And they would say well, we worked through it. Okay, help me to understand. What do you mean? You worked through it and they would look at me like we worked it. Okay. He said blankety blank to you. Then you said because I have, we got to break it down. They have to see it. If I just tell them, you know, shake my finger like I used to be a teacher. Um, that's not healthy. You need to break up with him, that's not going to work. They have to get it on their own right.

Dana Nygaard: 11:59

And so I would say okay, he called you a blank. What did you say? You may not call me that, no one will call me that name. And then what happened? We went and got pizza. Okay, that's not working through it. Has he done it again? Yeah, well, I thought you said before that you told him you wouldn't put up with that. Well, I mean, I did Like I told him and they'll get real serious. Like I told him you wouldn't put up with that. Well, I mean, I did like I told him and they'll get real serious. Like I told him, you can't do that but they all have email, right?

Dana Nygaard: 12:32

yeah, it's just it's, it's, it's so sad. And the other thing that they say often and it's again, it's like they almost all read from the same script is, once I point out that that's abusive emotional, verbal, whatever it is physical, they'll they'll usually drop their head because they're very ashamed and they'll say I feel so bad right now. He's a really good guy and I'm giving you the wrong impression. And so I have to disavow them of that. And I have these two French doors in my therapy office and what I'll do is I'll say, okay, let's pretend I have imaginary post-it notes.

Dana Nygaard: 13:07

So on, this one brings you flowers. We're going to put it on the good behavior side, and I don't even say bad behavior, I say you know, like the not so good side, because I don't want it to get all you know them getting upset. Where do I put he called you a blank, where does that one go? And they just stare. They know the answer. But it's that cognitive bias, right? Or the confirmation bias where they're thinking good guys bring flowers.

Dana Nygaard: 13:31

Good guys, you know, say I'm pretty Okay, but good guys, don't call you a blank. That's not what good men do. My husband doesn't even say that, like, let's say, the waitress is the worst server we've ever had. She has a terrible attitude and is beyond rude. My husband is not going to call her a five-letter word for a female dog. He's just it's not, it's not part of our life. And it's amazing how they'll say oh yeah, he calls other people that, but not me, sweetie. If he calls other people that, you're going to be on the receiving end at some point. I promise you that's what's going to happen. Yeah, and I want there to be less abuse, less needless suffering. There's enough suffering that happens in life anyway. You know acts of God, tornadoes, cancer, car wrecks. We don't need to invite in more. And if they had better self-confidence they wouldn't accept it, and I'm living proof of it.

Dana Nygaard: 14:32

I used to accept that and my husband will say to me he'll be like okay.

Dana Nygaard: 14:35

I know all the stories are true. I've met most of the players in this story. He said but I just can't picture you accepting that. He's like I wouldn't have lasted a day and a half. I'm like, dude, you wouldn't have lasted a minute.

Dana Nygaard: 14:47

Because I got to the point where I finally told myself this is what I've done in the past. I'm the cognitive. I mean not the cognitive, I'm the common denominator here. So, huh, I have to have a part in this. What's my responsibility? I keep inviting those people in my life. So now, when I'm going to date again, I need to heal that before I get out there. And so I did a deep dive for 90 days into healing an insecure attachment to secure, because I know it takes the brain 90 days to really make a change through neuroplasticity. And I dove into it, just like I did math classes in college and grad school. I took them in the summer no history, no English, nothing else. So I could live, eat and breathe the math. So it's all I could think about. So I could do better at it. And that's how I survived math classes, because they're not. They're very hard for me Even with all the effort. It's like I got a C and that was like an A, but I put in.

Dana Nygaard: 15:48

A-level effort, and so I thought okay, if it works in that way, let's see if it works in this way. And it does, because if I now take an attachment quiz, it always comes out as secure.

Ad: 16:01

Alrighty, folks sit tight, we'll be right back. On Transacting Value All righty, folks sit tight and we'll be right back on Transacting Value.

Ad: 16:20

Listen in on iHeartRadio Odyssey and TuneIn.

Dana Nygaard: 16:21

And so I thought OK, if it works in that way, let's see if it works in this way. And it does, because if I now take an attachment quiz, it always comes out as secure.

Josh Porthouse: 16:32

Well, congratulations, thank you, thank you.

Dana Nygaard: 16:35

Yeah, absolutely, it's incredible because God is a good and generous God, and I did my hard work too.

Josh Porthouse: 16:41

Yeah, well, okay, so that's something else as well. Right, there's something to be said for having to actually go through some sort of a grind and just deal with whatever happens to appreciate what comes next. That's right, because you can't I don't think you can actually have that degree of gratitude without some degree of sacrifice first or suffrage first, but saying that how do you, or how did you or how do you recommend identifying or maybe qualifying your tolerance and then identifying your threshold, because you've got to have some allowance for it, but there's a line.

Dana Nygaard: 17:16

There has to be a line. Exactly so it's. You know what are your. I asked someone like what are the top five qualities you want in a man? Because some women will have this exhaustive list and I'm like girl, if we applied the female version to you, would you be all those things? No.

Dana Nygaard: 17:32

I've never had one woman ever say yes, I am all those things. Never, not once. Okay, so let's not get crazy here, right? But what are your top five? Because one of my top five was I wanted a husband that was funny. I don't mean a bada bing, bada boom, he's a comedian. My husband is not a comedian but he makes me laugh and so when he makes me laugh, sometimes it's like I'll burst out laughing or a chuckle or take my brain a second. I'll be like babe, like that was a, that was a good one. I go top five knowing he just hit the ding, ding, ding. My top five. So what if I chose a man and I married him? We're 20 years in the marriage and he never makes me laugh, and yet that was important to me. What's going to happen? I'm going to wake up one day, look over in bed and think why did I do this? Well, he's a really great handyman. Now, my husband is a really great handyman, but let's pretend that wasn't one of his gifts. Well, okay, I could hire a handyman. So if I wanted a handyman so badly, why didn't I have that on my list of top five?

Dana Nygaard: 18:36

So part of this is not settling and the person's going to be human and to be a healthy human being. You have to know you have weaknesses, you have areas in your life that you're not going to be great at and you're going to make mistakes. So it's not asking someone to be perfect, but they need to be the perfect person for you. And so one of the things I told my husband when we got very serious about dating and I could trust him, I said the first time I ever see you drunk will be the last time You'll never see me again Because I'm not having that in my life. I did not come from a home, but that was a problem. There were other issues, but that was a problem when I was married before and it was sneaky and things that I just was naive and I just had no idea and so I'll never put up with that again.

Dana Nygaard: 19:32

And I said the thing about the B word. I said and again, by then I knew his character I would not recommend that someone on the first date before you really are able to trust them. You know, show your hand and let them know. Oh, this is what I want you to do, because the manipulator which okay, on a good day is 4% of the population. I think it's much closer to 10%, maybe even higher. In our current society there's so much evil in the world now because it's so easy to transmit information when in the past, evil may be in this little village, but it can only get so far. Now, in the blink of an eye, it can just go everywhere. And so I let him know I never want to hear the B word from your mouth and it's not like he said it, it was just something would come up about that topic and he's like I've never said I know you, I've never heard you say it, but I don't ever want to hear that oh, she's such a, it's just such a degrading term.

Dana Nygaard: 20:34

And so there are certain things that in the past I put up with. The number one sign of that you were getting into an abusive relationship, and I ignored it. My past was unwarranted jealousy, and it can go both directions For me. Obviously it was with a man. But to be able to say why are you dressed that way? What do you mean? I, I've worn this in front of you Like we're going to church. What do you mean? I'm not dressed inappropriately? Who are you trying to impress?

Dana Nygaard: 21:04

And the story that truly happened to me was I got stonewalling where there's just that like acting like I didn't exist and wouldn't respond to me. And then we go to to me this is my former husband, we were dating. And then we go to to meet his parents to we were dating. And then we go to meet his parents to go to a thing, and so I don't have time to say like what's happening? And I didn't have enough wherewithal to understand that he was stonewalling me at the moment. I knew it, but I didn't know enough to say get away from this man. And later, when he finally tells me because again he has to Lord it over me that there's something wrong, I've done something, and he says you were looking at that man in the car you mean on the Dallas highway, if you've ever been to Dallas zoom car.

Josh Porthouse: 21:52

Right on the 10.

Dana Nygaard: 21:53

What are you talking about? Like I couldn't even say. Like, oh, you mean the guy that had the thing about. Like, yeah, I couldn't even say like, oh, you mean the guy that had the thing? I had no idea what he was speaking of. And I'm the one after he calmed down, I'm the one who essentially went out to get pizza, like the women I worked with. We worked through it. No, we didn't. He acted like a jerk and I ignored that really big warning sign. So don't give everything away at the beginning. Oh, I need a woman who's very affectionate because she's going to be maybe all affectionate when she's really not affectionate. And then the minute. The deal is sealed.

Dana Nygaard: 22:32

Yeah, she's going to be like yeah, I don't need that. Get away from me, quit touching me. So you have to wait and see.

Josh Porthouse: 22:40

I've got. I've got buddies like that, and I mean, even in my case I've been in now in hindsight looking back, abusive relationships, not physical ones. I don't particularly tolerate that too well, my patience is a lot lower, I think, for that kind of a thing. But when it comes to verbal abuse or emotional abuse, after a while, well, for example, especially in my case, I didn't know what I had. You know what I mean, my worth, what I was bringing to the table. I didn't have really much confidence because I took it all for granted, like you said, well, I can, I can, you know whatever hang pictures and fix sinks and handyman stuff and the practical things, and I stood on that as more of my identity. And then so, when I could continue to provide those things, the environment didn't matter. So I can still fix things, I can still do things. And so I started to justify my own position in the relationships respective to the relationships from that perspective.

Josh Porthouse: 23:42

But then I couldn't figure it out why, consistently, over a few of them, I was getting comments like who's that I don't know, I've never met her before. Yeah, I have no idea, or you know, uh, sometimes maybe it's warranted. Why are you spending so much time at work? Other times it wasn't. And then it turns into why are you spending so much time at work? Because I'm at work, I don't know. What do you want me to say, you know. And then after a while it gets interesting, I think, because it can turn into this I may as well do it whatever. Whatever it is, because I can't get around not doing it and having that be the truth anyway.

Dana Nygaard: 24:23

Exactly.

Josh Porthouse: 24:24

And I think it starts to cause its own sort of what's the self-perpetuating catalyst.

Dana Nygaard: 24:30

Self-fulfilling prophecy yeah.

Josh Porthouse: 24:32

Self-fulfilling prophecy, yes, yep, and so then it becomes its own problem at that point, that otherwise wasn't there.

Dana Nygaard: 24:40

It would have been an issue. Well, in my first marriage before my sweet David, I realized towards the end of it, when you know there's usually a defining moment when a marriage is done, there's something that breaks inside one of the people Normally it's not you and I agree that we're just not a good fit. That's not how you and I agree that we're just not a good fit. That's not how most marriages end. And I remember thinking to myself one day it occurred to me I thought huh, he's angry no matter what I do, and I'm sick of shaking. The minute I would hear him pull in, I would start to shake because I knew there was going to be a deluge of why did you do this? Okay, the next time I wouldn't do it. Why didn't you do that? And I realized I couldn't win. And so I thought I may as well start doing what I want, because he's going to be angry, no matter what. And I'll tell you on the last weekend that we were officially together, but he didn't know it was going to be the last weekend.

Dana Nygaard: 25:41

I had fun with him. I'm a nice Catholic girl. I've been to confession since then but I had a lot of fun just doing the things that would annoy him. Because I thought why are you telling me how to drive? I'm a competent driver, I don't have a bad driving history. Why are you telling me, like you want to get in the left lane now? Only tell me that for directions, but don't tell me, get around this car. Don't micromanage me. Yes, tell me directions. So I'm not good at that and it was fun turning it around on him and of course it made him furious. But at that point I didn't shake anymore. I thought I'm not going to be afraid of you anymore. I grew up with men who were my father and brother, who were tougher than you on your best day. So why have I been scared of you? I'm no longer afraid of you.

Ad: 26:33

Alrighty, folks sit tight and we'll be right back on Transacting Value.

Ad: 26:37

Tampa Bay sun-kissed beaches, a thriving arts scene and a community that embraces diversity. It's more than just a place to live. It's a lifestyle. At Porthouse Tampa Bay Realtor, I understand that finding the right home is about more than just square footage. It's about finding the right character, culture and community. It's about finding a place where you can truly belong. Culture and community. It's about finding a place where you can truly belong Alongside a network of experienced marketers, inspectors, realtors and lenders. We're not just experts in the Tampa Bay market. We are your neighbors and we're passionate about helping you find the perfect place to call home. Follow along on YouTube, facebook and LinkedIn at Porthouse Tampa Bay Realtor. Porthouse Tampa Bay Realtor, where values start in the home.

Dana Nygaard: 27:24

I grew up with men who were my father and brother, who were tougher than you on your best day, so why have I been scared of you? I'm no longer afraid of you.

Josh Porthouse: 27:34

So that's something I wanted to ask you about, right, like you talked earlier about a little bit of what did you call confirmation bias and and how that this sort of tends to mask these situations and I think very directly contributes to a degree of imposter syndrome at present or in the future as well, because then you don't know who to trust, even if it's you telling you yeah, but developing that degree of awareness, even excluded from this type of an environment, is difficult.

Josh Porthouse: 28:05

So how do you develop that kind of awareness when you're in that kind of environment?

Dana Nygaard: 28:09

I think it's when to ask yourself, and if you're a faith-filled person. As a Christian, I would ask God to reveal to me like Lord, things don't feel right, or Lord, every day I don't have a sense of basic peace. Even if, you know, the hot water heater overflows or breaks or something. Okay, that's going to be distressing, but why is my default not to go back to peace and trust that everything's going to be okay If I do the things I need to be doing adulting, you know all those, all those things taking care of myself, going to the doctor, all those things and so when there's not peace, that's a big problem. And then, when there is a lack of congruency, so when the person is talking the talk and they're not walking the walk.

Dana Nygaard: 29:03

You know, I'm the best husband and I treat this woman fabulously and she's lucky to be married to me. And I'm thinking okay, if people knew what life was like at home? So people came up to us in public, he would immediately, like we were about to go meet people that we knew and he had just called me a vulgar, horrible name, said something contemptuous to me. He would put an arm around me and squeeze, letting me know well, don't you let the cat out of the bag, and because I grew up in a home where I was literally told get that look off your face. So if something upsetting happened and I'm a little girl and I'm like I couldn't have that.

Dana Nygaard: 29:42

And I don't mean I walked around pouting all the time, because I wouldn't put up with that for my own child either. But in the moment there'd be something very upsetting, but I wasn't allowed to feel my feelings. And then also I got I'm 5'8" okay, I'm tall, taller than the average woman, and I was down to 117 pounds. I weighed 114 when I modeled in high school as a freshman and I was down to 117. It wasn't because I was watching my figure, it was because I felt so upset. I was constantly in fight or flight and you know, I'm sure from your military background, when there is what you think is a danger ahead could be a real danger, could be a perceived danger. Your body shuts down eating, you don't have time for a snack, there's someone coming after you, so your body goes up.

Dana Nygaard: 30:35

We're going to shut that down. That's why after trauma, most people are like I'm ravenous, I could eat a horse. Yeah, because your body shut down and that adrenaline coursing through your body. I cried a lot, and I don't mean over a sad movie, I just would cry and I would think why am I crying? And it's fascinating I don't have the research in front of me, I have it buried in my computer. But the tears from grief and sadness, the chemical makeup is different than tears from I just hit my shin really hard.

Josh Porthouse: 31:09

They're different. Google it.

Dana Nygaard: 31:11

You'll be. It's just, it's amazing. So, even though I didn't go and have my tears tested, I was grieving that. How have I lived this many years, been, I think, a really good wife and mom and I'm treated this way, and it didn't match up. So, when my life no longer had congruency and my identity as a beloved child of God, a princess of the Most High God, when that wasn't being reflected back to me and my husband, something was off and the other thing I did.

Dana Nygaard: 31:46

My final point on that will be I went to a therapist and said I just want to tell you about a situation and explained it to her. I don't think I'm crazy. And she said I love her words and I use them to this day with my own clients, way before I became a therapist. She said people with his type of personality that's a euphemism for a jerk and often it means a person could have narcissism, antisocial personality disorder, histrionic something, some kind of you know, a borderline or something where they're not behaving well. And she said here's what's going to happen You're going to go home and you're going to lay down the boundary about the thing he told you you had to do and you couldn't do.

Dana Nygaard: 32:34

Okay, and I wrote it down and she goes and here's what he's going to say and I wrote it down and she goes and here's what he's going to say and I wrote it down and I went home and I set the boundary about the thing he was telling me I had to do. And the thing he said I couldn't do was all involved in one situation and we're off the air. Later I can tell you the story if you want to hear it. And it was as if she was psychic. I don't believe in that, that's not a thing I don't think. And she predicted he did what she said he would do. He said what she said. So after that happened and I got through the situation and again did what I needed to do for our son, I went back to her and I said, okay, I'm not ready for ongoing therapy at this point. How did you know that? Because I don't believe in psychics. If you have any information you're not supposed to have, I think that's demonic. So how did you know that? And she said it's because of his personality type.

Dana Nygaard: 33:29

Anyone, any story that fit kind of like yours in a puzzle, that's what they do, and so that's part of what comes to my practice. A lot are these type of situations, which is why I felt so led because of the married couples Again, not all of them. Some of them are absolutely delightful and loving and then the women that came to me with these abuse stories. It just was put on my heart. I can only see so many people in my office and only in Texas. So many people in my office and only in Texas. We have to help more women, because that's where God has called me more women to avoid this unnecessary suffering and then go through a divorce, because I don't want anyone going through what I went through. I want them to have what I have with my David now.

Josh Porthouse: 34:11

Yeah, well, and that kind of a well, actually that kind of a pattern recognition is important too, and I think that's just a sort of natural bias. You know, we try to at least in my experience. We try to find ways to control the chaos and put boundaries and constraints and figure out a way to make it make sense. Yeah, and even if it just doesn't, I think conflict and chaos are equally as natural in the world and it's okay to just it just doesn't click, it just doesn't make sense. Yes, and then to try to reframe that kind of uh, what did you? Why did you frame it earlier? Oh, that's right.

Josh Porthouse: 34:51

When you and david were dating, you said after some time I started to know his character yes I think that kind of more positive and proactive pattern recognition or maybe it's some sort of sociocultural bias, I don't know but that kind of capability, when you get to know somebody to that degree that you can stand on it, that you can trust it, I think that's the goal of any relationship. Maybe it ends in marriage, maybe it ends in friendship, maybe it ends in professional workplace, I don't know harmony or whatever you want to call it, but I think that's the goal in any relationship where you get to know somebody after the facade falls.

Dana Nygaard: 35:30

Yes, the mask.

Josh Porthouse: 35:32

Yeah, exactly, actually it was in that movie, I think the Mask with Jim Carrey. It was in a Ben Stein. It's all about the masks we wear. You know, that's exactly what he was talking about in the movie.

Dana Nygaard: 35:42

We present ourselves a certain way.

Josh Porthouse: 35:44

That's it Right.

Dana Nygaard: 35:46

But then we're real people. So it's funny like when people think I'm a therapist 24, seven, I'm just a wounded child in the adult body of a woman who's been through a lot of stuff. I do have my educational background. I think I do have some God-given wisdom. I'm just a person. So like I don't join women's groups where it's a support group because it's just weird. Everyone else gets to be sad, upset, overwhelmed. Not the therapist, because they expect you to be a certain way. So there's still that mask to a certain degree, but not the mask of dishonesty.

Dana Nygaard: 36:28

It's simply that you have to be this close in my world and you have to have earned your way here, because what I hear women say a lot, and maybe men say it too, but I hear the women say, well, he has, let's say, integrity, okay, great. And I smile and I'm thinking, oh, I know what's about to happen here. Again, not psychic, it's just a pattern.

Dana Nygaard: 36:48

I'll say what examples do you have Nine out of 10 times they go, they can't answer, or they'll say a woman say this one a lot, um, I'm a daddy's girl, or I was a daddy's girl maybe their father has passed on, okay, well, I've. You know, you've been my client for six months and you, you said you brought up your daddy's girl numerous times. So I would love to hear a story about you being a daddy's girl. Well, and then at the beach. No, that's not, it's a fantasy, it's delusion that they want to be the girl who was a daddy's girl, but they don't have those stories. And then I do know people that man, they can go on forever with all the daddy girl stories.

Dana Nygaard: 37:37

And my father, god rest his soul he passed not that long ago, very unexpectedly, and one of my cousins said you were always a daddy's girl. And I was like, cuz what? I didn't have a father, that I'm the only girl. That. What are you basing that off of? He had nothing to say, because I would love for him to have said remember the time I saw your dad and I'd be like, oh, how beautiful. I forgot that or I didn't know. He did that. No, and so part of this is we have to live in reality.

Ad: 38:14

All right, folks sit tight and we'll be right back on Transacting Value.

Ad: 38:19

Imagine spending 30 years defining yourself as a US airman. Now picture that identity vanishing overnight. On Transacting Value, meet Sarah Williams, a veteran who served three decades in aircraft maintenance. But retirement brought a crisis. Who was Sarah now? Shockingly, despite a long and decorated career, she felt lost. What filled the void wasn't another job but a calling. After working through the transition programs, she realized her purpose was to give back to veterans, first responders and patriotic families. She didn't want a six-figure job, she wanted purpose. Now, with Firewatch Magazine, sarah helps others navigate their own transitions. Her journey from airman to advocate reveals a powerful truth your identity is never fixed and reinvention is always possible.

Dana Nygaard: 39:11

Discover stories of resilience and purpose at firewatchmagazinecom and tune into Transacting Value to hear more because I would love for him to have said remember the time I saw your dad and I'd be like, oh, how beautiful. I forgot that or I didn't know he did that. No, and so part of this is we have to live in reality.

Josh Porthouse: 39:33

Well, and I think that takes honest feedback. If it's not your own assessment, it has to be somebody else's that you trust. Right? There's only one. Well, I guess there's only two ways to see any situation you know individually, and then a second party yes but it can be.

Josh Porthouse: 39:48

It can be constructive too, and it was like you said earlier when you brought up, you know, prior to technology or or this sort of digital revolution we've got happening in the world today, where you said evil can be everywhere, just not everywhere at once, yeah, and now obviously it's moving at the speed of light, yes. So to be able to sort of put that into a perspective, I think that's interesting too. The amount of human nature that takes place in any isolated village and I mean this firsthand, from the places that I've been to at least doesn't change. That I've been to at least doesn't change. People are still people, even if they've never had contact with you know, pick a more popular platform or whatever, it doesn't matter. Social media, let's say, but there's still lies, there's still deceit, there's still insecurity, there's still some degree of dishonesty or distrust or manipulation or whatever. Right, right, and so I don't know that necessarily it's spreading so fast. I think now it's just easier to be aware of the potential that it's everywhere and then seeing it right.

Josh Porthouse: 40:53

So that's possible yeah, I, I think it is. Uh, I think it is possible. So this is, I think, a good point in the conversation for a segment of the show called Developing Character D-D-D-Developing Character. And so this is two questions, and my reason for this is pretty simple. People are going to act a certain way, I think, based off of one of two stimuli in any particular relationship One is nature and one is nurture, and it just is because not everybody's witting to how they come across to other people, and so my working theory is that it's rooted in some sort of value system, even if it's inaccurately applied to a situation. So I'm curious in all of your assessments so far some of yours, and so these are my two questions as you were growing up, what were some of the values that you remember being taught or that you were exposed to? And then my second question is now that you're older, having gained all this experience, what are some of your values now?

Dana Nygaard: 41:54

I like those questions very, very much. So as a child. What I think is interesting is I was taught to stand up for myself, but there was a caveat, and the caveat was outside of the home, not in the home. In the home, you have no power. I don't care that you're 12, 18, 20, 40.

Dana Nygaard: 42:23

You only can stand up to people outside of here and you better stand up to them. So I was taught growing up if someone starts a fight you may finish it, but you may never start the fight. You can't throw the first punch. And I wasn't told like and you better win that fight, like they better be in the hot. No, I wasn't told that, but it was this idea. Like my mother taught me I used to babysit. I remember I think I got like I was up to like $2 and 25 cents an hour. I was like a big time babysitter in my little neighborhood, that's very popular with the parents.

Dana Nygaard: 42:54

Right, and so my mother would help me calculate. Okay, if you know, they pick you up at six and they bring you home at 10. Like this is how much money? Because I was not the queen of math, as I said earlier, and so I would already know, like, okay, I should get $10 or $12. And the Sinai's parents would give me a tip and I wouldn't be confused Like why am I getting $15? And this one family, the mother, didn't pay me correctly and my mother said you're going to call her and here's what you say. And I was like, oh, oh, no, mom, no, no, mom, it doesn't matter, I don't need the money.

Josh Porthouse: 43:26

No, ma'am, I'll rock the boat.

Dana Nygaard: 43:28

Yeah, you're going to stand up. Hi, mrs Smith, you know I did my little thing and it was obvious the way she spoke to me. She did it on purpose, it wasn't a miscalculation. And my mother said you need to tell her she's to bring that money to you now and blah, blah, blah. And I did it. The interesting part that was I wasn't allowed to do that in my own home.

Dana Nygaard: 43:49

So when a just normal boundary of just any child in a family was violated, it wasn't respected. I was not allowed to say anything and I would get in trouble and yelled at. So that was odd. I was given my Catholic faith. My parents are converts. I'm very grateful for my Catholic faith. That is the essence of my life and my marriage. However, most converts are zealots about their faith. They're just so on fire whichever direction someone goes if they go to a different faith. So even though it was something I was supposed to live up to, it wasn't discussed. It was like let the other people teach you the Sunday school teacher, the priest, let other people teach you, but we're really not going to discuss it. So my home was a lot of you talk the talk, but you don't walk the walk, which is why I then, of course, was attracted to men at that point who that felt familiar, because it felt comfortable to me Not a good comfortable, but in the back of my brain thinking yeah, safer, I can do this all day long.

Dana Nygaard: 44:56

I know how to do it. My values today, oh my goodness. Self-confidence and I don't mean in this narcissistic, oh my gosh, look at me, way In a. I have inherent dignity because I'm a child of God, and then I need to treat other people that way, and so one of the values I live by is treating other people as human beings and treating objects as objects, not treating a person as an object.

Josh Porthouse: 45:29

Oh, that's interesting.

Dana Nygaard: 45:30

Pope John Paul II, the great yeah.

Josh Porthouse: 45:33

There's sort of an interesting I don't know subcontext. I think to that point though, in medicine you have to deal with this kind of dissonance or intentional distancing all the time. Healthcare, let's say, maybe more than medicine, but healthcare. Just like you do in the defense industry. To take a 17 or an 18-year-old, let's say, on average in the enlisted ranks in the US Department of Defense and say you're going to go into an active kinetic warfighting environment and you may have to shoot somebody, takes some conditioning yeah and some degree of desensitizing and dehumanizing and to a certain extent it's a necessary evil of the industry yes, yes.

Josh Porthouse: 46:21

The difficulty comes in when they say uh, four years later, eight years, 20 years later, whatever I'm done, for whatever reason done, I'm going to go be a banker, a teacher, a cop, a firefighter or whatever it becomes. I'm going to grow mushrooms or do whatever. Okay, great, and never did anybody explain what you just said.

Dana Nygaard: 46:45

Really.

Josh Porthouse: 46:47

No, there is no backwards sort of you know the human intelligence or the human capital or the personal development or the social reintegration type aspect of that on the back end of of a of a service contract. And so to compensate for that or supplement for that at least in the United States especially, we have licensed mental health counselors and social workers and psychiatrists and all these teams of people to help with that while somebody is actively serving or, you know, for their families, whatever applies. But no, otherwise that conversation doesn't happen. Yeah, and so if the conversation doesn't happen and if you don't volunteer for the help or if you shy away from it or avoid it when it is available, well then what do you have to stand on? And how many millions of people then reintegrate into society with that particular mindset that's going to cause problems.

Josh Porthouse: 47:43

So I I think conversations like this and points that you're making, careers that you like yours, that you got into, I think they make all the difference, just because they exist, whether or not you're, you know, restricted to texas, it doesn't mean like this on the airwaves or on podcasts you are, and it makes like this on the airwaves or on podcasts you are, and it makes all the difference, just just to hear you say it. Um, so I don't think your upbringing is is necessarily unique in that regard. Unfortunately, it's fairly common.

Dana Nygaard: 48:14

It is. You're right, and I'm thinking that some of what you were saying could speak to at least an aspect of the high suicide rate of people right In active military, when they're not active, and it's heartbreaking. And so in counseling there's something known as non-directive therapy and that's this more laid back, don't really get overly engaged. You let the person talk and then you do the occasional. So how does that make you feel, josh, which sometimes I do want to know how my client feels, because all they're talking about are their thoughts. They're saying the word feel, but they're actually not using feeling words.

Josh Porthouse: 48:59

So go well, I feel that the reason why okay, that's not a feeling, that's a thought- Well, we're detached and then conditioned to be detached, yes, and so then the ability to effectively communicate from a position of attachment doesn't exist.

Dana Nygaard: 49:15

No, no, it totally fails, and so what I tell people when they call me, cause people will message me or text me, email me. Hey, dana, I found you online, someone referred me to you, whatever. And what are your rates and what are your? No, I don't ever, ever say well, the Blue Crossers, I don't do any of that. I say when's a good time to chat about your counseling needs? Or people say none of that matters, just add me to your calendar. No, because I need to tell them up front.

Dana Nygaard: 49:58

I'm a directive therapist. I know 99% of them are all like oh, carl Rogers, and non-directive. It never sat right with me. For me, if you want that kind of therapist, they're out there, they're very easy to find and they probably charge a lot less money and they're probably on every insurance panel. That's not me, because God put me on this earth all those years that I was silenced and shut down For the last 20 years of my life I haven't been that way.

Dana Nygaard: 50:20

So when the Holy Spirit gives me a word of knowledge or something, I put it out there, I test it. I don't act like I'm the mouthpiece of Jesus. I say does it resonate? And even when they go, sometimes, no, I really don't think that fits. And I know inside, I can tell in my body I'm thinking no, I feel it in my bones and I'll go. Okay, they will, within a day or two, text me, email me, dana. Oh my gosh, when you said blah, blah, blah, it hit me. Why did I not connect the two things? That's, you're the third person to say that to me. So when it's a non-directive therapist, they just don't. They would never say anything like that. And I put it out there because that's just how God made me. So all the years I was constrained. It went against who God made me to be. And I'm not everyone's cup of tea, and that's okay, because I'm enough of a cup of tea for other people that it's great. I have a full practice.

Josh Porthouse: 51:20

Well, congratulations again.

Dana Nygaard: 51:22

Thank you.

Josh Porthouse: 51:23

That's huge. Saying that, I guess actually for the sake of time, I really only have two more questions for you. But saying all those things, I mean you've talked to loads of people. Like I said, all I can speak to is at least 3,000 hours worth of people. So through all that time your own experience, other clients, all the above what has it actually done to instigate your own sense of self and your own self-worth? Now, having gone through all of that and come out on the other side?

Dana Nygaard: 51:52

I thank God for the suffering. I thank him for the trauma, for the abuse, for the neglect, for the heartache and pain. I thank him for the cancer, what came from it? Not the actual cancer, because it was pretty miserable, but I've had lots of operations and treatments, I assure you, but I'm cancer-free, thank you, Lord. But that suffering doesn't have to be wasted and that I am his beloved child. Even though I did suffer, I'm not.

Dana Nygaard: 52:24

I don't think poorly about myself because of what all I've been through. I think he loves me so much that he's allowing me to experience some of the suffering that Christ went through, because if we're going to for those who are Christians, we're not just supposed to be. Okay, I turn over tables because of the money changers, or Jesus was really cool about these things. No, I live a life where I have enough self-esteem that if I bring okay, I don't want to be disrespectful. If I bring, like the, let's say, theology of Dana, okay, let's make that silly thing up and someone doesn't grab onto it, that's okay.

Dana Nygaard: 53:06

I dust off my feet and I walk away and I leave them, that's okay. They're not meant to be in my life, and so that's the biggest thing is I only have people in my life that treat me well, and if they mess up or if I mess up, we forgive each other, we hug it out and we do better. I no longer accept people in my life when people are like well, that's your family. Should my family treat me better than that? Why should that girlfriend I've had for 20 years that is just like a sister me, why does she treat me better? But the people that share my DNA don't? So there are some family members that I'm very close to and there are some that I'm going to love them from very, very far away.

Josh Porthouse: 53:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a lot of growth opportunities. I think they come up as a result of that. Yes, speaking of, there's also a lot of growth opportunities to bring people closer, and so you mentioned your book earlier. For people that want to get in touch, either as clients or readers, or follow you on other shows whatever applies other podcasts when do people go? How do they do it?

Dana Nygaard: 54:17

Thank you for that. So if you go to my website, dananygardcom just like it's on the screen there you can access my book, and it's one book in four different editions. So it's 365 dates to renew your Christian marriage. The purple are Catholic, the red are Protestant and the Protestant one is for Protestant brothers and sisters, and it's for it really comes in handy when there's a mixed faith marriage and maybe one spouse is anti-Catholic and like hey, you're not bringing that Catholic stuff in here, it just it just tones down the Catholicity, if that's the word of it. But it's over a thousand 1,095 date night questions, set up in a format of three questions per day, and so there's the warm up. Then you get a little bit deeper. Now you're back home, you're on your patio having a glass of wine and it builds from the beginning until the end of it and it's to deepen that emotional intimacy. So there's that, and I do speaking engagements, keynotes. We travel around the country. I would love to go to Europe. So you know, let's, let's make things happen in other countries. And then my husband and I we have marriage retreats, marriage enrichment retreats that we lead, and so we have that.

Dana Nygaard: 55:31

And then my current project, which is, oh my gosh, it has my heart so deep is claritypleasecom is the website where you go to, but it gives you access to my free online community. It's just for women, miss to Mrs, and it's all about what are red flags and what should you know about them and what did they mean? Because they all mean something, because every human being does what they do, because they get some sort of a payoff, and so you have to know if a man because, again, I work with women if a man does X and such, this is what it actually translates into it means he disrespects you or it means he's setting you up to see how much he can use you, sort of thing. So that's my current pet project that is so exciting to see women getting healing so that when they do go back out in the dating world, they choose better or to help them. Vet, is he my Mr right or is he my Mr wrong if they're dating someone currently?

Josh Porthouse: 56:37

Yeah, having standards is important. I think it's also equally as important to clarify the amount of humility and discernment that comes with exercises and retreats like what you're describing, because it's through some discernment and some analysis. No, no, it's not, and that's okay too. That's right. Yeah, that's, that's huge. So for anybody who's new to our show, depending on the player you're streaming this conversation on or obviously here on YouTube click see more, click show more. And in the drop down description for the conversation, the show notes, you'll see links to dananigardcom and claritypleasecom and then obviously, your other links there on your website for social or to check out your books as well. I think this was a really cool conversation. In fact, the only real letdown I have is it was very fast and now time's up.

Dana Nygaard: 57:41

You're awesome. Thank you, You're such a great host and this was such fun just going back and forth and I love the topic and I love your insight and I have such respect for anyone who's ever been in the military. So if this is not too trite to say thank you to you and for all the others who have served in our military and Veterans Day is very, very special to me as an. American, it's my birthday. Veterans Day. Yeah, thank you.

Dana Nygaard: 58:07

It's just. It's such a special place in my heart, so thank you for all that you do in this podcast.

Josh Porthouse: 58:13

Sure, sure, well. And that said, you know, having people like you come on and share your perspective with a certain degree of vulnerability and authenticity, I think is a lot in any particular circumstance and setting. But then to couple that, or maybe compound that, with we're going to broadcast it to the world, is that cool. If I put your face on it, you know it changes things a little bit. So also, yeah, having the courage to just talk about it, even though it may not be necessarily a big deal to you or anybody else that comes in onto the show in the future, it may be to other people, and having that experience listening to you or anybody else that comes in onto the show in the future, it may be to other people, and having that experience listening to you, watching you talk about some of these things can be an inspiration in its own right. So, yeah, absolutely. I'm just happy to have been a platform and part of it.

Dana Nygaard: 58:55

Well, thank you. I think it's important for therapists not always in session but to be vulnerable, because people tend to put us on a pedestal oh, your life is so perfect. I'm just a person. I'm just a person who's been through things and I have some wisdom and knowledge to share.

Josh Porthouse: 59:11

And that's an important caveat, I guess, for the sake of just making it more publicly proclaimed that there doesn't have to be this all-encompassing attribution of everything we talked about to every relationship, just as much as it doesn't necessarily apply to every service member or every first responder or every everybody, but there are circumstances where it could apply to anybody and I think that's why it's got some resonance. Yeah, absolutely. But again, yeah, thank you for your time and I appreciate the opportunity. And to everybody else who's listened to the conversation or watched it in this case, thank you guys for coming back. Or, if you're new to the show, thank you for coming out and listening to the conversation as well. I'll leave you with this before we close out. If you like this conversation and you want to hear more of our conversations, go to our website TransactingValuePodcastcom. You can find everything there, all of our seasons, the more recent ones and the really early ones that probably should be archived, but that's okay, they're up there as well. That's how we learn and grow.

Josh Porthouse: 1:00:10

Now, saying that, on the top right-hand corner of the homepage it says leave a voicemail, click the button. It's two minutes of talk time all to you, and here's some recommendations about what you can do with it. One let us know what you think of the show. Tell us what you think about my questions, my style, the guests, the topics, the structure, the flow of the show anything I don't mind. Let me know what you think. Feedback is how we evolve the show and helps it to grow. And then obviously, you can tell your friends about it as well. But the second thing that works well with that leave a voicemail button is you can tell Dana what you think about this conversation. Let her know what you think about the topics. Let her know what you think about her responses, resources. You have situations you're going through. Keep in mind we do not have the need to have a HIPAA compliant voicemail fact or a piece to this show, okay. So whatever you decide to put in there to relay to Dana, if that's something you want, keep that in mind and we'll get you guys in touch and you can talk about that elsewhere. But let her know what you think about the show. Let her know what you think about her book. Leave her a review if you want, and we'll forward her the audio file as well.

Josh Porthouse: 1:01:15

That said, I do appreciate your time. Anybody who sponsored and advertised and worked with our show obviously, my team. Thanks, guys for putting this together, but until next time that was Transacting Value. Thank you to our show partners and folks. Thank you for tuning in and appreciating our value as we all grow through life together. To check out our other conversations or even to contribute through feedback follows time, money or talent and to let us know what you think of the show, please leave a review on our website, transactingvaluepodcastcom.

Josh Porthouse: 1:01:46

We also stream new episodes every Monday at 9 am Eastern Standard Time through all of your favorite podcasting platforms like Spotify, iheart and TuneIn. You can now hear Transacting Value on Wreaths Across America Radio. Head to wreathsacrossamericaorg. Slash transactingvalue to sponsor a reef and remember, honor and teach the value of freedom for future generations. On behalf of our team and our global ambassadors, as you all strive to establish clarity and purpose, ensure social tranquility and secure the blessings of liberty or individual sovereignty of character for yourselves and your posterity, we will continue instigating self-worth and we'll meet you there. Until next time. That was Transacting Value.