In part two of our debut episode, we're back with Kreston's Asia-Pacific business arm to swap inspirational role models, gender equality within a business environment, and why India is a great place for expanding your enterprise. New guests coming next week!
Link to the full Kreston Global report can be found here: https://bit.ly/3RAdWhV
Written, hosted, edited & produced by Infinite Global: https://infiniteglobal.com/
Hello, and welcome to Kreston Global's, the International interpreneur Podcast.
Welcometo episode one, part two two, and I'm here again with Ganesh, Mukesh and Paul ready to discuss in greater depth Kreston Global's business culture research, and learn a little more about their own experiences as interpreneurs. If you've just joined us as a new listener, I'd recommend going back and listening to last week's part one to fully appreciate the context, though I can guarantee you'll still get some great tips and insights from our interpreneurs if you want to stick with this one. So without further ado, let's get to it. As touched on last week in part one, a big part of Kreston's research and subsequent report has been around this idea of an interpreneur, uh, coined phrasing for international interpreneur.
And it would be great to hear what you all take the mindset of a successful interpreneur to be. What is it that gives them the confidence to take that leap of faith?
Uh, so basically interpreneurship is a dream for many people that I have come across, uh, in my practice. So in interpreneurs enjoy the prospect of, uh, working for themselves, doing what they love to do, uh, you know, calling the shots, then building a sort of a company culture, which they think is the best and they want to lead a lot of themes.
Also, most founders that I have also seen are actually aware of the down flights, uh, that is before they launch their businesses. They understand that they need to make, you know, Tough sacrifices work on a shoestring budget, especially the, you know, startups and of course face sleepless nights. So one of the things which I always say to them is that there is a limit, uh, as to how much you can prepare.
But no matter how many seminars you attend or plus, or, or, or, you know, various, you know, workshops that you attend or the books that you read, something simply cannot be absorbed by reading books. You know, basically leadership books, uh, or of, of, you know, various management, uh, you know, groups that we say here in India means, you know, management, uh, uh, you know, teachers or speaking with the industry veteran.
So, uh, the best way in which according to me, an interpreneur can learn, which I always share with an interpreneur, is to learn by himself or herself the firsthand experience, which one can, uh, get out of the various, uh, you know, advances of doing businesses. I'm sure that most of the interpreneurs, uh, you know, learn a lot of things.
You know, they first learned the hard lessons and they tried to correct their mistakes. I have seen a lot of interpreneurs spending, uh, their first few years working from the crack of dawn, I mean, uh, up to late in the evening on beat days again on, um, you know, Sundays and burning themselves up. And it is also a fact that very few of them succeed and a majority of them feel.
So due to a few string budget, I have seen many of them, you know, working with, uh, in family members and friends whom they try to rope in in order to spend less on them. This also has got a lot of, uh, issues attached to it, and it affects the growth of the interpreneur in the larger way The whole life for many of the interpreneurs I have seen, have been put to a great test.
The family members often feel that they are in the second place. So rapid growth for an interpreneur is an exciting time in one's, uh, in a business life cycle. It's extremely, uh, you. Tempting to invest, uh, further into other ventures. This is what I have seen with most of, uh, you know, my clients. Once the moment they start earning money, they will try to go into a lot of expansion mode.
It may be something which is, uh, you know, basically actually related diversification or underrated diversification, but whatever it is, they try to blow up their entire money. I always advise them. You know that, uh, if you try to grow too fast, what will happen is that everything you have worked will come down.
It, it'll come down actually very quickly. It'll crumble down. So once a reality sets in, so I always tell them to, you know, stop at the point when you think that this is a good thing that you have done, and try not to expand. So this is my, uh, you know, views of dealing with interpreneurs.
Um, I compare normal interpreneurs with interpreneurs, the one that chooses to go, uh, overseas, uh, to expand their business out of their comfort zones of outside the local markets.
So my experience with, uh, those that briefly go overseas, um, I, I, my own straw profiling is that most of this entre who have done fairly well, uh, locally would. One to venture overseas if they, their background, either they are foreigners who have met good locally, uh, they have gone abroad to study, having been exposed to some overseas culture, um, overseas studies when they were, uh, doing their undergraduate graduates.
Days, or, or even for that matter, uh, their parents are, they are locally born, they're locally educated by their parents, and some relatives have actually got some overseas connections. They tend to. Be a little bit more brave in, in venturing overseas than compared to a businessman who have, who does not have that kind of background.
So, so that's my experience or that, that's my profiling.
Um, definitely going take a lead, uh, from what Ganesh and Paul were saying, and it's like, it's to the point, um, very fortunately enough to actually work with, very closely with a lot of, uh, interpreneurs actually have became interpreneurs. Um, UMCs, you know, multinational company who has businesses abroad.
Also have some, uh, lake here. And why Versa? Uh, of course, uh, they, they, they're very keen to expand. That's the strategy. They want to expand, capture market as much as possible, make, uh, market capitalization as their key. You know, initially they would, uh, don't mind to incur losses, but you know, they want to actually capitalize our market capital.
So that was their main motive agenda. And they come with the very planned strategy, you know, how to expand at some small region and then states and then, you know, globally. So, you know, I have seen local interpreneurs, so actually having businesses in Europe and you know us, uh, they have the ambitions to.
They would need certain things to support them. You know, like, you know. They have the overall understanding of the international market, but you know, they always want, if we can get some detail, market intelligence, you know, um, they would have some local competitive age. If they have some market lenses, uh, they would need some tax breaks or something, you know, so that initially.
Um, the losses could be reduced, uh, the good, uh, government support, uh, so that the local infrastructure can be developed. So certain things they always been talking about, but, uh, They are being factoring all these conditions before even they enter international business. So, uh, we've been advising a lot of them on these tax structuring and, you know, market.
There's a lot of study available. It's not that, not, but it gives you overall, So of course they could expand more if you have some detail. A hands on experience of doing business and internationally, that's what they say. Uh, personally, when I have dealt with the, uh, one of the chairman of, uh, leading, he, he has sleepless nights.
I mean, I, I remember, uh, very clearly one expression, which he hates to make to me is to say that, you know, you know how many. Days in the months of vacation I've been dating. I said, I have no idea. He said, I have not taken a single day of vacation. I said, It's not, not, It's a very much surprise to me. So he's saying that, and he's been working almost 30 years.
He says he loves his work so much that while vacationing, he's okay to deal with the work situation and while working, he enjoys so much that even if it's in office, he's. So that's an attitude actually is caring, enjoying his work. His boundaries are not to a bar, and that's how in local interpreneurs actually work and deal with the international pressures.
That, you know, the mindsets have always been to identify new markets for exploring business opportunities, developing capabilities, adopting new technology for scaling the business, taking calculated risks, and being mindful of the fact that exploring the market and the different erritory would be challenging.
So they are prepared. They're very much prepared from their mind, what they would expect. You know, they'll factor all this, you know. And, uh, of course, uh, Indian interpreneurs are more keen to, excuse me, more keen to leverage on the technology for scaling the businesses, you know, so, They come from a background where they have done all their lessons and they're prepared to take any hit.
So tolerance is being built up for them, you know? Uh, but the key is to have mark intelligence and good advisors, uh, to actually, uh, work through this. Well, actually speaking about the mindset, I think that in my experience, the interpreneurs are extremely given multitask. When we combine an interpreneur with their employee, I've seen interpreneurs doing a lot of job other than what is their core area.
Now the interpreneurs also have, uh, you know, if they meet with failure on one model, they have this, uh, you know, mindset of moving on to the next one. That's the sort of mentality which most of the interpreneurs have. Uh, they don't get sunk because of failures, like what most employees, uh, you know, often get.
And I've only seen that interpreneurs are more smarter than their employees, uh, which is of course a fact. Otherwise, you can't become, you will not be able to become an interpreneur. interpreneurs are also quite smart about the risk which they take. I mean, whereas employees are always, you know, risk averse, they are not invested in taking any risk.
They're reluctant to embrace failure, and so they avoid any possible exposure to it. So that is the mindset of the employees. But interpreneurs are not like that. I mean, interpreneurs understand that you will have to take a calculated risk. Uh, and uh, if you do not take a risk, then of course there will not be any evaluation.
interpreneurs I've also seen emphasize and build on their strengths rather than their weaknesses. I mean, everyone, every individual and every interpreneur, every business have got its own strengths and weaknesses, but, uh, it's. Uh, you know, a very, uh, you know, welcome sign when you understand what your strengths are and you try to build around those strengths so that, uh, you can, uh, uh, basically get a lot of, uh, you know, benefits of benefit.
Now interpreneurs. I've also seen that a lot of interpreneurs, uh, who discuss about their competitors, uh, in various forums and meetings and stuff like that. But I've always seen that they're not really threatened by those people who are, you know, more competent or more smarter than what they are. They still pursue doing their own business.
Come, what me? And that's the way that's the right attitude, which, uh, one has to have when we are doing with, uh, you know, international business interpreneurs, I've also seen value. Uh, you know, learning opportunities. Uh, so they are more interested in learning new things rather than sacrificing their ego.
I mean, they wouldn't mind sacrificing their ego. They would be, uh, you know, uh, it would be, I mean, I'm sure most of them would welcome an opportunity to learn and go and say to, uh, know stakeholders that I am not aware of there. So that we just learn and try to implement this. Uh, you know, in my business that's the way I've seen most of the interpreneurs, uh, you know, working and most of.
The most important thing that I have found in all the interpreneurs is that, uh, unlike the employees who always, you know, in an organization go by the plane game, interpreneurs own all their, you know, sort of decisions, whether it is a good decision or whether it is a bad decision. I've always seen that interpreneurs come and say that, Yes, I have done this.
This is not the way I should have done, but they own. So this is one single, uh, you know, aspect, which is really, uh, you know, amazing on the mindset of the interpreneur. Uh, thinking about my clients and my portfolio of, uh, clients who have got, who have gone overseas and, and expanded business overseas. I see the trend is more of, uh, These are the kind of interpreneurs of businessmen that constantly, regularly come out with new processes, new products and services, uh, and then they are willing to go, Uh, they're quite willing to go overseas to expand into new methods.
Because they are always, uh, experimenting or they're not afraid of experimenting with new, uh, time tested once. So, uh, uh, I, I also just thought, want to add to that profile that, uh, when I see inter entres, uh, those businessmen that who oversees to venture, they. They tend to actually be, um, a generic product on hand, uh, or services on hand.
They try and localize it as well. Uh, let me share something, which I don't think, uh, any of. My, my fellow Indian, uh, colleagues here, and, and likewise you can relate, but in Singapore now, currently McDonald's is running a promotion, a campaign that localizes one of their burgers. And it's called XA Burgers.
I don't know if you are familiar with the dish Xa in Singapore, which is very, uh, uh, well, well loved in Singapore and Malaysia and, and possibly Indonesia, but, but they have localized it. So again, I, I just wanted to say that, uh, even if it's not even trying to localize the, there. Advertisements and the promotions and campaigns, uh, the macom part of their business, when they go overseas, they try and localize also, at least in those areas.
I thought that's interesting to share. It's interesting that you touched last week on how gender balance within interpreneurial circles in particular has changed over the years for the better. Could you say the same about technology? How has that technological shift affected how easy it is to go global?
Now, I didn't want to mention in covid. I'm sure it's, uh, something that no one wants to talk about anymore, but you know, it. Been very much a catalyst in remote working and solving those business challenges that, that we used to face with distance and, and time differences and all of that, that stuff, uh, most definitely.
Um, I wanted to say it's, it's probably quite a natural progression, uh, as the world with the technology on hand. Grows smaller in that respect. You know, we are all on different path of the world, and yet we are talking and, and video conferencing in this sense. So, to answer question, um, I do see a lot more international, uh, interpreneurs, um, venting abroad.
Out of their home country simply because of, in my opinion, again, uh, the, the comprehensive knowledge that they have in foreign markets. Uh, so it gives them a lot more comfort as well as, Away a lot of the uncertainties. What if I go to India to set up shop? Uh, what are the laws and regulations and culture that I gotta take note of?
Uh, with, with technology, with globalizations? Um, I can find these out, if not from Google, uh, certainly from, uh, many other sources. That will be available. Um, my experience, I, I started, uh, in this industry almost three decades ago. Uh, of course, uh, in my view, there's a lot of changes happened and, uh, there's a lot, many increase in local interpreneurs who has became interpreneurs interveners.
Um, of course, uh, the era of. Having information on hand is actually increasing, uh, for us. Uh, is the information is in Bend. You know, we have all the market research available across the globe. We have, uh, networks of, uh, resources and companies available on hand. So overall understanding is, uh, with us a lot.
We have a competitive age also, as far as the, um, Labor costs is concern, of course, China and is again, our competitor in that sense. But then, um, having said that, we still actually have a lot of information available. Um, we have ple of information and which is then opportunity also to increase and. Uh, I agree with Paul.
The world has become small in terms of avail of the source machinery. Infrastructure credibility can be established easily. Government economic policy is favoring new interpreneur and most important, consumer encourages competition. Uh, these are some of the factors. Uh, just basics for any person to grow and in our experience specifically, looking back, you know, there's hell of increase iners, actually, you know, they have grown big time in size and number both.
Well, actually I started my career in the late eighties as an accountant. Was 1987 to be precise more than 30 years ago. And of course, as we all know, it is a lot of nature that everything changes with time. Successful people are, those are those who foresee the changes that are gonna come including, and we have to adapt to this, uh, you know, new situation and changes the world is rapidly.
Over the last, you know, 30 years since, uh, I started my practice and. There has been a lot of progress in the meaning what interpreneurship's also about over these years, what interpreneurs are thinking today is a lot different from what interpreneurs, uh, used to think maybe actually 30 years ago. And as was saying, you know, basically the technological revolution.
Uh, basically the technology has, uh, helped interpreneurs access essential business knowledge and tools. For their low, uh, you know, startups, which they have started all over the world, which was not possible before. And nowadays, I think we discussed this also in an earlier question, that there are not a women interpreneurs who have such strong, uh, I mean globally.
And one of the most interesting aspects that I find now is the age, the average, each of an interpreneur is much less than what it used to be, 30 years. We have, uh, interpreneurs, uh, in their early twenties, uh, starting their own companies, which never used to be the case before. Now, international business, uh, in courses are also offered by a number of colleges as well as, you know, leading universities across the world.
And, uh, those facilities were not available 30 years. So you can learn what is international business. Uh, you can, um, go to various, you know, important universities globally, learn international business. And, uh, you can go for career development after learning international business courses. Now, uh, especially after the Covid pandemic, uh, headset in the interpreneur now can work from anywhere and with great speed.
Uh, actually thanks to the internet revolution that has taken. Big companies are now widening their, uh, workforce in order to take the full benefit, uh, outta the small startups, uh, in, uh, you know, countries like what ish was saying, China, Vietnam, India, Taiwan, et cetera. I think the most important aspect, which I have seen, you know, the change that has happened is that, uh, there are a lot of interpreneurs now who are not looking at, uh, you know, any sort of actually profit motive in, uh, their, uh, you know, business that they have started.
We have the Amazons and we have the Uber. All of them have gone. You know, large scale funding and IPOs and all that of them are actually profit making companies. So the whole business model has changed a lot wherein, uh, the young interpreneurs are trying to build up, uh, you know, their companies not by having the bottom line, the bottom line would be negative, but they're trying to build up values in the company, build up business in the company, and tried to exit by selling it to thec.
So this was not a trend, which was there actually 30 years ago. This is a completely relatively new trend, which has come about. Probably one or two decades. And, uh, more of these businesses we see are late over the last four, five years. So this is, uh, you know, my experience of what it was actually 30 years ago and what it's now.
So it's obvious that a huge amount has changed since you started your respective business endeavors. But what are the greatest challenges an interpreneur can face now, and how can they prepare to help overcome those challenges? I think speaking about the, uh, you know, greatest challenges, I think if, uh, I were to list out some of those challenges, I would probably say that cashflow management is one of the, uh, you know, most important challenges which, uh, you know, interpreneurs are facing today because cashflow is something which is essential to, for the small businesses to survive at.
Uh, we find that many interpreneurs struggle in order to pay their bills. When they are waiting for, you know, their customers to pay them for the services, which, uh, they have. And the big challenge, which, uh, I see here is hiring employees. Uh, because, uh, earlier, uh, you know, the trend was, uh, you know, it was basically for the employee who was.
Having actually butterflies going on a stomach when they go for the interviews. But now it's the other way around. It's actually the interpreneurs who are really struggling because when they interview the, uh, you know, prospect candidates, the hiring process takes, uh, you know, seven days of your time, of the time, uh, reviewing the resumes, sitting through the interviews, uh, you know, uh, and then finally, uh, you know, actually rejecting a lot of candidates who come for the.
And then you give an attractive package to, you know, one, one good candidate, and, uh, you hope him or her to join you. And then, you know, the candidate goes around shopping with your appointment letter and finally comes back to you and tells you that I'm not interested in joining. I think this is another big challenge which most of the interpreneurs are facing today because, uh, employees also, you know, try to take a one page of the helplessness of the interpreneurs to a large extent.
In fact, it is the employees who are trying to use the interpreneurs rather than the other way around. And at the big, uh, you know, challenge, uh, that I see is basically, you know, the time management, which is, uh, actually a biggest problem faced by many interpreneurs today who have to wear many hats. They have to keep going from meetings, after meetings, saying so many things.
Sometimes the interpreneur access a finance professional, sometimes he acts, uh, as a corporate governance professional, and he bases so many hats and sometimes he assumes the role of a HR manager. So all in one. But then this is going to be another big challenge basically because of the available time, which is at the disposal of the interpreneur.
Uh, I have also seen the delegation of task is another major challenge because, uh, you know, Know that you will have to delegate in order to get the work done. But then, uh, you know, most of the interpreneurs see that whatever, you know, sort of delegation they have done gets messed up and they have to redo it all the way right from the, So this is also another, you know, sort of, uh, challenge, uh, which most of them have the shoes swing budgets on, uh, which most of the new interpreneurs.
Is also a great obstacle basically because, uh, you're not able to spend money the way that you want to spend. If you don't spend, then you don't get the decide results. But the shoestring budget is something which, uh, uh, actually puts a cap on what you can, uh, go into the market and spend money. So, according to me, these are the major challenges, uh, which, uh, are being faced, uh, by the end.
Absolutely. I mean, I completely agree with what one van specified on the source, mobilizations, the funding, the time management, you know, all those things perfectly. Uh, those are certain challenges. Um, We, in our experience actually there, when we deal with lot of local interpreneurs, actually has become interpreneur, uh, they feel that, you know, there's lot of economic policies which restricts their, of them are import tariffs.
You don't, local government, international government actually make their entries as a barrier. So, you know, they can't be much competitive with. Local tariffs are something which is very much, uh, a challenge, uh, for any interpreneur wants to become. The other thing watch, uh, we have experiences is like security majors, you know, to all the men in materials, you know, outside, in international borders.
You know, that's also a challenge dealing with local bodies, you know, dealing. With lot of mediators, uh, it's also become a challenge cause that's takes away lot of the time and efficiency and resource, you know, to mobilize that of course. Uh, to top it off the tax burdens. So, uh, they're paying local tax, they're, you know, withholdings and then eventually they land up.
Paying the tax is also something as a burden. Um, Many of the, uh, local interpreneurs actually have mitigated some of the risks on the resources because. They already thought of that. You know, everyone's, uh, uh, uh, other than the top level, uh, employees, you know, the self life of any resources, like maybe two or three years.
So they're planning ahead of time, but I would agree on Ghana specifically. After this covid situation, uh, employees are driving, uh, the. So, of course, uh, the cost has increased because you can't work without the team. You need the team. Uh, we used to get that X value, now you're getting it expos two X three sometimes, you know.
So that has actually affected the cost burden. Um, if, uh, any interpreneur is actually getting some local government support at, uh, international level, definitely, um, they'll better what they're doing right now. Um, again, I will, uh, this, this one I again totally agree with Muk as well as Spanish, and we are talking about.
Cash funding, but I will put it slightly differently. Uh, greatest challenge of big businesses, of global businesses for me is now about the growth story of the vision capital. Funding. Uh, and budgeting is critical, is very important because initial years, because in the initial years, and here we are talking about maybe even 10 years or more, uh, we are expecting these businesses who have gone global to be lost.
Uh, before getting any traction and eventually profitability is realized maybe, uh, and even if the focus is not one of profitable business, but rather data play, we are looking at the accumulation of. Consumers, data supplies, data cetera. Fundraising from
relies not very on the growth story and therefore monetizing that vision, that growth vision is absolutely important. So that is the greatest challenge of for. Finally, and perhaps most importantly for a few of our listeners, do you have any closing advice or insights you can offer to aspiring interpreneurs looking to expand or move their business into a different cultural environment?
Any stories you may have, uh, to tell us about your own experiences or, you know, anecdotes that other people might be able to learn something from?
Um, advice, last line of importance. Things I would like to tell aspiring, Uh, again, from the discussions and my own view that, uh, are most. Sort of, uh, are very concerned about the local laws, uh, the local culture, uh, the uncertain environment when, uh, they have already met quite good traction in their local market.
When they, they're venting overseas, they, they want to be a bit more. In, in familiar grounds, as much information as possible. Then my advice is that with members you are, That's true. Absolutely. I mean, uh, uh, of course, uh, today's, uh, local interpreneurs and international interpreneurs are quite, actually informative.
They have lot of knowledge, uh, lot of research available at their, uh, with them. Uh, As, as like few things, which definitely we would like to, uh, advise, uh, intern who's actually starting their business. And, you know, uh, once you become an interpreneur, of course, uh, Paul advises the greatest advice to stay with Christian networks.
So definitely, uh, they're in good hands. I would completely agree on that. But they know, but it's, it's all about the mindset, you know, . So I would think that, I know people should actually, uh, be humble and, and learn. You know, that, uh, when you are, uh, doing something new, uh, they should. They are very tempting to do experimenting.
So we humble in law, uh, at the same time, um, you should get started. Not to just think more of, Cause there'll be complexities, there'll be something or the other. Keep on coming. You should have the courage to face it. Uh, you should keep things very simple. You know, that's a key. I mean, and it should be focused and most important, you know, uh, Christian is a good mentor, you know, for all the activities.
So we should get a good mentor, uh, work in a network because network definitely support getting a lot of information and local hands. And don't worry. Wherever the opportunities arises, look around, seize that, and most important, what we feel is accepting the feedbacks. That's very critical because, you know, that's how you learn from your mistakes and improvise yourself, um, and be courageous.
I'll tell you one great experience. What, uh, we have learned and read, uh, from some of the greatest interpreneur. They failed hundred times, but they did not actually lose their courage. They again started and, uh, built up, uh, uh, with all their energies and bigger and they've been successful. So, of course, uh, we need to be focused and do the right thing.
That's what I think. Yeah. I fully agree with what you ing, how the interpreneurs would have to basically position themselves in the. Uh, I think the most important thing, which, uh, uh, you know, all the interpreneurs will have to, uh, understand is, uh, when we do international business, they have to give a lot of respect for, you know, the culture of the place where they're doing the business.
See, when I talk about the culture, I mean, uh, when we speak about, uh, you know, basically the culture between the Western and the east, uh, that's a western and the eastern parts of the world, uh, we often find that the western culture is very. It's very easy to understand and very easy to follow, whereas, uh, you know, the culture on the eastern side has got a little bit of complications the way, basically how businesses are done on the East.
What somebody would expect, uh, you to behave when you come to India, or for the safety China or for the sake to Japan. So you need to give your, uh, you know, actual business card in a particular fashion, holding it on both your hands, and then give it if you're on the eastern part of the world. But this is something which is not very common in the western part, that you just hand it over the way that you normally handle something else.
So, uh, these are things which are very important because, uh, you know, when we do international business, it's very important that, uh, one needs to understand the culture. And, uh, try to fall in line with the culture, Try to, uh, do what is acceptable in the place where you wanna do the business. Otherwise, you may end up, uh, you know, being misunderstood.
Your intentions would've been really clear and you would be, uh, really having a product of service, which is something which, uh, is of amazing quality, which, uh, your prospect to customer otherwise would've bought from you. But if you're not able to understand the culture in which you. To talk to him and, uh, greet him or her and sell your product to service.
It's something which is going to be very, very, uh, you know, uh, it, it would cost a lot of actually damages to you. And the bookish was mentioning about, uh, having a mentor, of course, Cton, uh, you know, Total Network is the best mentor that is available, uh, right now for all the interpreneurs. I'm sure that the anti customer network, uh, would, uh, be in a very, uh, you know, very, very good.
Uh, you know, advise all the interpreneurs to make full use of, uh, you know, the, uh, you know, advantages and the capabilities which are available in the network throughout the world. Thank you. And that's it for this week's episode. A huge thank you to Gne, Mukesh, and Paul again for your time. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to.
So next week we've got two new guests to introduce you to, who we will be calling in all the way from Singapore, but both are originally from Australia. So I can absolutely promise that it'll be a very interesting conversation indeed. Uh, having spoken to them both. Prior to this, a lot of banter will be had, and I'm sure you'll probably have a chuckle on a couple of occasions.
So definitely, definitely join us next week for that one. But until then, the white paper link is once again in this episode's description if you'd like to read. If you're only join us for this episode, please go back to part one. Um, you learned a little bit more about all of the interpreneurs that you had talking today as people.
Um, In the meantime, you know, take a look, uh, around the white paper and the research that is available. It's really good stuff to. Take into account when looking to move your business abroad. See you next week. Goodbye.