Episode #57: Why Puerto Rico’s Standard Goes Beyond Sustainability

Amy Wald, your host, sits down with Dr. Keenan Adams to discuss sustainable tourism and regenerative travel for Puerto Rico. 

Dr. Keenan Adams is an experienced Wildlife Biologist, Ecologist, and Economic Developer with a robust background in government leadership and innovation. With a passion for regenerative tourism, Dr. Adams serves Puerto Rico by through the utilization of green and sustainable ideas. He also serves as CEO of a regenerative farm and glamping business. 

The two discuss green plans for Road Verde while also discussing the regeneration of forests, the reforestation of agricultural lands, and plans to continue the healthy and eco friendly growth of Puerto Rico.

Key Takeaways:

• Career story - managing tourism and beautiful areas. Scientist and PHD in Animal Wildlife
• We need regenerative agriculture that could help restore the land and make Puerto Rico self-sufficient.
• Trying to plan ahead so Puerto Rico grows sustainably and has the infrastructure they need to support tourism.
• Sustainability is expensive, but it’s worth hopping onboard for everyone’s experience to be better
• How to utilize a national forest not just as a tourism driver, but as an advocate for sustainable tourism
• Tourists should demand higher, sustainable standards.
• The center of the island is worth experiencing.  

Quote: “Start demanding sustainability. Start demanding regenerative tourism… At the end of the day if you want to be a part of the change in Puerto Rico, it’s on you to start creating a market demand for it.” 

Transcript

0:04
Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Sustainable Hospitality Podcast.

0:08
This is Amy, one of your hosts.

0:11
We are so glad you're here.

0:13
And don't forget, if you are tuning into this, prior to November 13th, which is next Wednesday, we are hosting a live sustainable Hospitality Master class and we're going to give you all those juicy secrets so that you can get started on your sustainable hospitality journey.

0:31
But without further ado, I am so begrilled and honored to have Doctor Keenan Adams with us from the US Forest Service.

0:42
And he has been doing amazing things in Puerto Rico's agriculture sector, tourism sector, wildlife sector, US forestry sector.

0:52
He wears many, many hats.

0:54
Keenan, thanks for joining us today.

0:56
How are you?

0:57
I'm doing great.

0:58
It's a pleasure to be here.

1:00
Thank you so much.

1:01
And I see where where are you currently?

1:03
I know you're SL Junke.

1:06
Yeah, that's Mount Britain.

1:07
I love that.

1:08
I actually had the pleasure to hike Mount Junke one time.

1:13
And my let me just tell you, the coming down leaving my quads and I can't even believe I never used the word quad, but my quads were so sore because it took so long to get down.

1:28
But it was one of the highlights of my life.

1:30
I'd I had always wanted to go.

1:32
So I'm excited to hear all about like the real inner workings everyday of El Junque, which is the National Forest of Puerto Rico.

1:42
But so you, Doctor Keenan, you have a PhD in wildlife biology, which super fan anything wildlife.

1:52
I am a super fan.

1:53
And you're also an ecologist and economic developer, but you have a robust background in government leadership and innovation and regenerative tourism.

2:05
And you also are a bureaucracy hacker.

2:08
And I want to know exactly what that means.

2:10
We're going to talk about that a little bit later, but tell us how you got involved in Puerto Rico's tourism industry, what you're doing now and all that good stuff.

2:22
Yeah.

2:22
So thanks.

2:23
Thanks for great intro.

2:24
I feel like I don't have to talk much more about myself.

2:28
So, yeah, I've been managing national life, refugees and national forests for most of my career.

2:33
And when you're managing these public places, you, you automatically get yourself into tourism because people are coming to, you know, visit these beautiful public lands.

2:42
El Junque is the second most visited place.

2:45
My background traditionally was as a scientist and I really studied social, ecological and technological systems, which is just a fancy way of saying we've been studying sustainability in society for a long time.

2:57
So tourism is just an element of that.

2:59
So it came very natural to me when I'm managing a place of 1.2 million people.

3:06
What got me to Puerto Rico was after Hurricane Maria was deployed by the, the, the White House to actually come help with the hurricane recovery and LED natural and cultural resource recovery and really saw that tourism, especially alternative tourism was an, you know, sustainable or ingenitive tourism was a great opportunity for Puerto Rico to to recover and, and leverage all these federal funds that were coming.

3:30
And so, yeah, that's just kind of my, my, my made my way to Puerto Rico.

3:33
And, and then also as an aside, you mentioned earlier, I'm an entrepreneur as well and I have a business called Aguero Bosque and there's a glamping site, clouds glamping that we're trying to create a model to show that you can leverage tourism to help fund restoration.

3:49
And we're actually creating a, a food forest, a cacao and plantain and breadfruit forests.

3:55
And we're restoring degraded land use and regenerative agricultural techniques.

3:59
And so, you know, when I think about regenerative agriculture, we've been doing that on, on and habitat restoration forever, right?

4:08
We're trying to restore things back to a a healthier and more ecological state, better, better ecological state.

4:14
So just able to apply these 20 years of experience into my work and inside and outside of my professional setting.

4:23
Is this a dream job for you?

4:25
Yes, It really is like a manager rainforest, right?

4:30
I have a bad day.

4:30
I can just go outside and walk and and everything's OK.

4:36
Yeah, if, if, if I if I had a a trust fund, I would still do this job.

4:40
You know, I would do it for free.

4:42
What a great, what a great, you know, now.

4:45
And I do not want to take away from the challenges that you have and the hard work that has to be put in, but I can just see that you love that.

4:53
And, you know, maybe all of that hard work has LED up to to these moments.

4:59
So I'm excited to hear about more.

5:01
And you know, I'm glad you mentioned regenerative tourism in agriculture because I know that there are a lot of sustainability and regenerative experts and, and, you know, people that listen, but then we also have the hospitality side and some travellers and tourism.

5:16
So will you just for the audience's sake, just talk to us a little bit about what does that look like for Puerto Rico specifically, why sustainability isn't enough and how you're taking it one step further.

5:34
Yeah.

5:34
So Hurricane Maria was a great example of food sovereignty, right?

5:38
And immediately there was a few food shortage.

5:42
And if we thought about, hey, if we thought about regenerative agriculture that can feed the island and scale it up, it could actually help fuel tourism.

5:50
But it also, it also be a, a vehicle used right, that that exchange of commerce could be a market driver of restoring the land.

5:59
You know, just something that simple where you can say, oh, we can do sustainable or we can find sustainable sourcing.

6:06
But when we're shipping things into an island, right, it, you have to think about how sustainable is that?

6:12
If, if that supply chain is is immediately broken.

6:16
Now I might get to worry about hurricanes and resiliency as well.

6:18
But again, we can think about, well, less sourced foods that can survive the climate that we're we're living.

6:25
So you can have more root vegetables and the the port of land in Puerto Rico has been degraded over time.

6:31
This is a very old place, relatively speaking, in the New World.

6:35
And so it was at one point, I think down to 10% or 6% forest cover.

6:39
And we've had this great regeneration of forests, a lot of it's secondary forest.

6:45
There's a lot of degraded agricultural lands that could be put to good use and help restore the natural environment.

6:51
And what happens in the mountains in these areas that are degraded affects the coastal areas, right?

6:57
And so we have a lot of sediment and soil getting into the the rivers, then they affect the reefs, which affects them, the beaches and effects, you know, reefs protect these beachfront properties, right?

7:10
And the reefs dissipate 90% of the waves.

7:14
And so this on an island, you're so interconnected and you have to really think about how can we do things to restore?

7:21
So we're actually protecting the cultural natural assets.

7:25
And so just sustainable is you have to go a step further.

7:28
You have to think about actually making this place, leaving this place in a better condition, which is essentially, you know, for layman's terms, it's a definition, right, of regenerative.

7:38
So instead of sustainable, doing no harm, we're, we're making it actually even better and regenerating everything around it.

7:47
So how do you what what kind of, you know, what kind of things take place to try to just pull this holistic effort together as you talked about that cultural aspect, the economic driver of tourism, that regenerative aspect, What kind of programs are are you you undertaking on the island through the forest to educate the locals about this?

8:20
Yeah.

8:20
So A1 good example is this partnership that the forest has with a nonprofit called Love in Motion, and they started as a sustainable regenerative tourism social impact group.

8:33
But they're right right now they've really gotten into trail maintenance.

8:35
And so we could not keep up with our trails maintenance.

8:40
The vegetation grows every 30 to 45 days back.

8:44
There's very limited budget.

8:45
So they're using a model of volunteerism where volunteers are coming to help maintain those trails, but also those trails were a source of sentiment, right?

8:56
Because when a trail's not maintained, it could start putting sediment into the streams.

9:00
And so by maintaining proper drainage, we've increased access so that we have more trails now open, we have less sedimentation.

9:11
And then we're also helping a non profit, which is creating jobs right, for these trail crews.

9:16
And, and we're giving a visitor or a volunteer an experience where they're actually making the place better.

9:23
That's a very finite example.

9:27
If you think about one, we're working with our French group, Amigos del Junque.

9:31
They're working with the local brewery on watershed restoration.

9:34
And so they're wanting to create a beer that can proceeds of the beer sales can go back into watershed restoration because guess what?

9:42
Beer is 90 something percent water, right?

9:46
And currently a lot of the local beer is not made here, right?

9:50
It's, it's shipped in from off the island and this is a brewery, Ocean Lab that's actually local.

9:56
And they're also a great tourist attraction as well.

9:59
And so the idea is through voluntarism, social impact, we also have a voluntary surcharge with these resorts, Realmar, Wyndham, Realmar, they're doing a, a voluntary surcharge where people can voluntarily just add money to their state.

10:15
That goes back into our fringe group, which is doing a lot of community work.

10:20
So those are just three quick examples that are easily scalable and some things that we're very proud of.

10:28
And those are such tangible examples of how a let's just take a hotel, for example, can really start to cultivate more of a community relationship and give back and offer unique experiences to guests that make them feel connected to the place that they're in and build that bond even with that brand.

10:52
So I, I love both of those.

10:55
So let's talk about what are your thoughts?

11:00
You know, on over tourism is a big conversation right now and I am almost certain, I shouldn't say certain, but you Puerto Rico probably struggles in certain cities.

11:12
San Juan maybe not the rest of the island or other locations, but San Juan, especially between cruise ships and you know, land based travel and all of the others.

11:23
What is your take or your opinion on, you know, putting a quota on, you know, tourists?

11:29
So we're putting a tax on tourists.

11:32
How, how would you approach that?

11:33
Or is, is Puerto Rico thinking about either one of those?

11:39
So there's a couple of different schools of thought on this one I'll speak to.

11:45
I don't want to get into the policy of a a territory, but I would talk about what we do at El Junque.

11:53
So essentially what we have done, we said we need to understand what our capacity is right?

12:00
This where's this point at which we're not going to have degradation of the things that we care about now that could be scalable to Old San Juan where they're.

12:07
So we're concerned about the charm of the city versus a beach or a trail where we said we don't want too many people creating this crowded feel a museum, right.

12:18
Regardless, you can just understand what's the capacity of which we want engineered, also social capacity.

12:25
And then from there you have to manage it.

12:28
Now you can do things like think about concerts.

12:32
There's a capacity amount of people that can come there.

12:34
We have reservation.

12:35
You have to buy a ticket ahead of time, right?

12:37
There's different ways to try to manage it.

12:40
My thoughts are on those things that you mentioned, a quota.

12:43
A quota was essentially you're managing to that capacity.

12:48
How you enforce it, right?

12:49
You can enforce it through taxes, you can enforce it through advanced sales.

12:55
I think the key is thinking about the unintended consequences of that.

13:00
So what we did, they would come there, they couldn't get in, they would disperse.

13:23
And you would think that's a good idea.

13:24
That's one of our goals actually, to disperse tourism.

13:26
But if you don't do that in a thoughtful way, we've actually created more damage to the environment.

13:31
People are going to places that are not designed for tourism, right?

13:35
And so I think these things have to be well thought out.

13:39
I think we have to have transparency.

13:40
If there's taxes about where that money goes, is it going back to the assets or is it just going into a general fund?

13:48
Is it used for tourism management?

13:51
It's kind of my general thoughts on it.

13:53
And I think it's it really depends on where it's applied.

13:57
And that's really interesting.

13:58
I love the analogy of the concert because most things have a capacity, right?

14:06
It seems like tourism is one of the few that gets left unchecked.

14:11
And it's like, oh, well, we just, we'll just bring in as many people as we can.

14:15
But there really needs to be some forethought with that.

14:19
And, you know, I like, I like where you're going with all that.

14:23
So what role do you see traditional?

14:26
You know, I think we all love to go to different countries and different places, of course, for the culture.

14:33
Puerto Rico is definitely one of those.

14:36
It is one of like just my favorite places in the world, from the people to the to the music to the mofongo to all of it.

14:45
But what role do you see like traditional Puerto Rican practices playing in like this modern age of sustainable regenerative tourism and hospitality?

14:59
Yeah.

14:59
So the our definitely a little bit.

15:04
Yeah.

15:04
No, no, it's so we've had this campaign live Boricua on the island.

15:10
It was it was done by the scrub of Puerto Rico, which is the DMO.

15:14
And it was really trying to highlight the culture and coming here and living like a Boricua.

15:20
And I think culture could be appropriated and commoditized and create, you know, even caricaturize in a negative way where it detracts and almost exploits, or it can be done in a way that you're talking about quality versus quantity.

15:40
And I, I, I think, you know, do people want quality cultural experiences where they feel this authentic, well, authenticity, there's a lot of diminishing returns, right?

15:50
And so now you're talking about high value tourism where you want to have an authentic experience, you want to be able to fill that culture.

15:57
And I think the way Puerto Ricans live and where they are is just such a great asset.

16:03
And so if you start doing tourism to where it affects that, you're going to start losing a lot of the culture.

16:08
I also think about things like short term rentals.

16:12
You know, there's two islands, Vicas and Calabra and and Old San Juan.

16:17
You could potentially, if you don't think about policy, you could potentially take your communities and turn them into short term rentals.

16:28
This is something that's occurred across the world so that you know, that's another example of how tourism is integrated into land use planning, into zoning.

16:39
It's not just, and that's the hard part because it's integrated in so many different government sectors.

16:44
It's not like it's just one thing that you can just turn some thoughts that there's no Department of tourism that does roads, right?

16:50
Department of Tourism has to coordinate with the transportation department has to coordinate with the planning board.

16:56
So that which makes this very difficult.

16:59
And so thinking about how do you integrate your culture, protect your culture while doing that.

17:04
And it's the transportation person may be thinking about engineering, a zoning person may be thinking about just economic development.

17:10
So it's really important to educate people and I think that's the key is educating the professionals that are making decisions.

17:17
It's very, very key.

17:20
That is so key.

17:21
And you know, you mentioned policy, which you know, I you have this really unique fusion of a lot of these things at play, which I think probably is what makes your job really exciting and then equally challenging.

17:37
But you know, when you think about policy and I think, yes, sometimes tourism is siloed, but most of the time they're talking to those same departments in a, in a destination, in a public forum.

17:51
But I think sometimes the hotel gets left out of that conversation or they aren't, they aren't actively part of that conversation.

18:00
Do you think that's something that as a hotelier you should be actively trying to be a part of 100%?

18:10
So I think the, the friction in the system globally is hoteliers like heads in beds, right?

18:16
You want occupancy.

18:18
And so a lot of times that's a a volume thing.

18:22
And so the and, and I think it's one of those, let's take a step back and say, how do we integrate?

18:30
How do we become a part of a sustainable path?

18:35
How do we rather, you know, how can at the end of the day, you think about it, you can have heads and beds or you can actually have a higher value.

18:42
So what if we had a higher value and we could charge more and not have to worry about as as much occupancy, right?

18:49
I think that's a question and and maybe just want volume and heads and beds and that's cool and fine.

18:55
But how you may integrate and engage may be very different versus saying we actually want this to protect the assets, we want to protect the beaches.

19:03
How can we integrate with the natural resource department?

19:05
How can we integrate with all these other sectors and be a part of the conversation?

19:09
But it's very important to be part of the zoning planning and engaging people and letting them, letting them know that you care about the future of tourism on whatever destination that you're managing.

19:22
It's very important if you be at the table and, you know, I don't think that a lot of times historically hoteliers understand how uniquely positioned they stand to both gain and lose, especially at this really kind of pivotal moment.

19:41
If I can paradigm shift that we are kind of undertaking right now, as you know, tourism stands to lose a lot if we don't preserve these beautiful places because people don't come to rundown, you know, places that are in trouble and suffering.

20:00
And, you know, nor do we want anyone or a place to suffer, you know, So I think it's just such an important point.

20:07
Thanks for pointing that out.

20:10
So tell us about, I know you have a really exciting new project that you announced on LinkedIn and I want to hear more about it, but it is the Road 186 project.

20:22
Tell us all about that.

20:24
Yeah.

20:24
So we have this beautiful part of El Junque's Puerto Rican Rd.

20:30
9966 and Puerto Rican Road 186, and it's called El Verde.

20:35
And during our forest planning process, the community said, hey, we want to make this a National scenic Byway.

20:39
And we did a capacity analysis that we mentioned earlier.

20:42
NBC realized, OK, we can add, we think 300,000 visits to this one area.

20:50
And you know, immediately I'm like, well, where do 300,000 people eat?

20:54
Where 300,000?

20:55
What about the wastewater systems?

20:57
We don't have enough bathrooms, right?

21:00
So if we just went ahead with this project and not thought out ahead of time housing, right?

21:09
Do we have enough bed and breakfast as short term rentals in the area that could help sustain that?

21:15
Or do we want to just be a pass through?

21:19
All these questions need to be resolved with the communities, with the the local government departments.

21:24
And so this project is working with Cornell's sustainable tourism asset management program led by Megan Knappler Wood.

21:32
And what we're trying to do is to do the planning ahead of time.

21:36
We're, and we're, we're actually engaging the resorts and the hotels, the hospitality industry, because they want their guests to have other things to do, right?

21:45
And so they, we've engaged them and they're, they're all about it.

21:47
They're leaning into it, even interested in how can they be a part of it because you know, the better they want repeat customers, they want people with great, having great experiences because the the best marketing is somebody that had a great experience.

22:02
But we want to get ahead of it.

22:03
We want to say, well, how much energy, you know, renewable energy will we need to produce to actually make this sustainable?

22:10
What about watershed protection?

22:12
So we're doing all these analysis ahead of time, working with the local, the mayors, the whole industry is this big collective effort and everyone's welcome.

22:21
We have a Big 10 approach, everyone's welcome.

22:24
And we just want to have a conversation because I don't want to be responsible creating the unsustainable thing where we have a bunch of traffic and it's ruined the community and there's congestion and things are all crowded and, and that place has lost its charm.

22:39
And so that that's the idea is to do the planning ahead of time, to engage people ahead of time.

22:43
So we're all collectively moving forward and having a sustainable scenic byway that, you know, and hopefully we can make it a regenerative 1 where we're thinking about how can that that visit actually improve the conditions.

22:59
Yeah.

22:59
And it's, I mean, not simple, but it's planning is the difference between longevity and economic prosperity and communities being bolstered up versus, you know, the opposite of all those.

23:14
So I can't wait to watch that project take life and, and start planning and learn from it because I'm sure it's going to be a framework that other communities and, and tourism destinations and island nations are going to adopt.

23:29
So I'm sure that's part of the the idea, right?

23:33
Yeah.

23:34
So our goal is to be a model and create models for that can be replicated.

23:40
That's part of that.

23:41
I like to joke and say we're we're the Montessori of the Forest Service.

23:45
You know, we're so unique and we have to try different things and what we want to do is be a a learning lab for Co management.

23:53
We do the Co management communities of the forest, but also a learning lab for regenerative tourism that how public lands or or touristic assets can regionally plan, because that's essentially what we're doing is regionally planning and and trying.

24:11
We, we got 8 municipalities to sit down at the table and said, yes, we're going to plan together, right?

24:15
That is powerful.

24:17
And so that that's the idea is to try to create models of regional planning centered on sustainability.

24:24
And, and people are on board.

24:26
They just admit that sustainability is expensive or everyone's on board.

24:31
They they they they really wanted to do the right thing because they see the value of protecting the of this place.

24:40
Yes.

24:41
Well, I know we're coming up on time and I don't wanna keep you, but I've got one last question.

24:47
OK, Two last questions, but we'll make them quick.

24:50
That's fine.

24:50
I guess we've got time.

24:51
OK.

24:52
OK.

24:52
OK, if you could instantly make tourists understand one thing about sustainable tourism or regenerative tourism in Puerto Rico, what would it be?

25:09
I think the one thing I want people to know is, in my opinion, for us to scale this, it has to be consumer demand.

25:20
And so as a consumer, I would say it's on you to try to ask questions to whatever hotel, whatever tour guide and start demanding sustainability, start demanding regenerative tourism.

25:35
It's, it's not that old, you know it.

25:38
We, we got a bunch of cool stuff and you can find it online.

25:43
But at the end of the day, if you want to be a part of the change in Puerto Rico, it's going to be on you to start creating a market demand for it and be willing to sometimes it's again, I won't say, I hate to say high value because it may insinuate it's more expensive.

26:01
It's not just demand, higher value, right, and and higher quality and higher standards, right?

26:08
You know, it doesn't, it's not necessarily, you know, that doesn't translate to a dollar, but sometimes it does.

26:14
I love that you said that because I always have felt like Puerto Rico does not get the respect it deserves, first of all, and it is such an amazing place that deserves support.

26:28
And thank goodness you're, you're there helping.

26:31
But I think this is the call to action.

26:33
Everyone make your voice heard.

26:37
And you know, it's, and it's, it's interesting that you say that because you know, a lot of the, the reports and the, the statistics that are coming out, travelers, 78 percent, 80% of travelers are saying they want to travel sustainably, but they're confused and they don't know how to find it.

26:53
And that is legit, right?

26:54
That is a valid, valid concern.

26:57
But at the same time, like you're saying the end of your stay somewhere, let them know what you'd like to see or what you appreciated in that vein and that that information is gold to that hotel and they will take it and they will do something with it.

27:14
So, all right, so last question, what's your favorite?

27:18
And this is probably an oxymoron because if it's a hidden gem, we don't necessarily want everyone to find it.

27:24
But what's your favorite hidden gem in Puerto Rico that maybe, maybe towards myth?

27:32
Oh, it it's definitely the center of the island.

27:38
It is.

27:40
You know, people go to El Junque, they go to the West Coast, they go to San Juan Vieques Calabra, but you know, Cialis hayuya Utuado at Juntas, the center of the island is just amazing.

27:57
And so I would really just check out these experiences or even, you know, try to stay in a in a short term rental and it's low density there, but just go there and go to the local restaurant because you're probably going to be one of the few tourist there.

28:14
A lot of local people go there on the weekend and tour it.

28:18
It's just an amazing part of the island that is under visited and there's just a great gastronomic and cultural experience.

28:28
It's the whole coffee country and it's just amazing coffee, great farms and haciendas there.

28:36
That that would be my hidden gem.

28:38
I love it.

28:39
That's on my bucket list.

28:40
I, I, yes.

28:42
And I, I had never heard of those places, but again, you know, when you were, when you're out living there, you know, of the really well known ones.

28:50
But good coffee.

28:51
That's good to know.

28:52
But the food is so fantastic and and it's one of the best salsa places ever.

28:58
Yeah, right.

28:59
Yes, yes.

29:03
Well, I am so honored that I got a chance to chat with you.

29:06
I've been following your work for a long time.

29:08
During COVID, I just got on every Zoom and webinar I could find, and you were on a lot of them.

29:16
So this is a real highlight for me.

29:19
I am thankful for the work that you're doing there.

29:22
Can't wait to see how it evolves.

29:25
And maybe we'll get to have a little cafe con leche when I come to Puerto Rico one day soon.

29:32
And keep us posted on, on your whereabouts and what's happening.

29:37
Thank you.

29:37
You're always welcome.

29:38
So just let us know when you want to come down.

29:41
Yes, So we will, of course, is what can we highlight for you?

29:46
Your how do people find you?

29:48
How do they follow you?

29:49
Oh, yeah.

29:52
We could share them on my, my stuff on LinkedIn, my profile, Keenan Adams.

29:56
But also, I would say check out Fundacion Amigos del Junque, the Friends of El Junque Foundation.

30:03
There's a nonprofit that supports the forest, but you know, between my LinkedIn and then that organization, you can get a good sense of what we're doing and, and, and feel free to engage and ask questions.

30:14
I'm, I'm more than happy to, you know, part of my job is being a public servant.

30:18
So you have questions just to ask and I will happily answer them about, you know, there's no, no consultant fee, just engaged.

30:25
And, and I'm happy to, to, to provide thoughts because that's part of my job is to be of service to the public.

30:31
So and I do it with, I do it with, you know, it's my honor to do it.

30:35
So that's amazing.

30:37
So but what about your glamping business?

30:39
We got to tell people to go.

30:41
Oh, yeah.

30:42
I mean, I can't really no talk about my professional.

30:47
Yeah.

30:47
All right, all right.

30:48
But we can, we can link it in the show notes, right?

30:51
We can link it in the show notes so people can find you.

30:53
I mean, come on, we can't do you a disservice.

30:55
I don't want to promote that.

30:56
But yeah, yes, you should promote that.

30:58
You're doing good work.

30:59
It's not just self-serving.

31:02
I will link it there.

31:03
We'll make sure that people know how to find you.

31:06
Heenan, I know you've got a busy day ahead of you.

31:08
Thank you so much.

31:10
And thank you, everyone for tuning back in.

31:12
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31:15
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31:24
Have a great day, everybody.