Business Noodles
Success stories to shape your business thinking. We’re fascinated by business people and what makes them tick and in each episode, we meet entrepreneurs and business leaders with interesting stories to tell. Our host, Mark Greaves, corporate finance partner at PKF Francis Clark, talks to guests who have built successful businesses, finding out what drives them and what they have learned from the challenges they faced along the way. Whether you’re an aspiring entrepreneur or simply interested in the world of business, we think you’ll enjoy listening to their stories.
Business Noodles
Balancing people, planet and profit - Insights from Graze CEO Joanna Allen
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Joanna Allen shares insights on the value of diverse leadership, B Corp and why purpose is integral to business, as we explore the evolution of Graze into the UK's leading healthy snacking brand.
Launched in 2008 as a subscription-only service, Graze is now a thriving retail and direct to consumer business. We delve into the keys to Graze's success and what’s changed since it was acquired by multinational consumer goods giant Unilever.
Joanna imparts her wisdom on the interplay between business purpose, strategy and mission. Learn how businesses can balance people, planet and profit, as she shares examples from Graze's journey as a certified B Corp.
We also find out why Joanna is backing the Better Business Act, a movement that aims to redefine the responsibilities of company directors. Joanna discusses the creation of a succinct business purpose and how it can be a beacon during decision-making storms, as well as the challenges of greenwashing and the need for a consistent set of standards for measuring ESG. She also shares her personal journey of stepping into the CEO role amidst the pandemic and her ambitions for Graze.
Graze
Speaker 1The team who started Graze essentially took that same technology , that understanding of loyalty , of subscriptions , and thought about how they could apply it to a new area of business , a new sector . The fact that technology and data is something that runs still very much in Graze's DNA . It was how it was sort of born at the beginning and we consider it a competitive advantage still today . We didn't change what Graze was doing because we wanted to become a B Corp . B Corp accreditation sort of validated how we were operating as business in the first place .
Speaker 2My guest today is Joanna Allen , who is CEO at Graze , the UK's leading healthy snacking brand . I'm Mark Rees from PKF , artist Clark , and I'll be your host . Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast to get updates and notifications as to when our latest episodes are available . Hi , joanna , how are you today ?
Speaker 1Really well . Thank you , Mark Good .
Speaker 2And for our listeners , could you just give a little bit of background on what Graze is ?
Speaker 1Absolutely so . As you said , it's the UK's leading healthy snacking business . It started back in 2008 as a subscription only business at a time when it was really hard to find healthy snacks for anyone , particularly in a kind of working environment , and people will fondly remember getting their Graze snack box delivered through the post to their desk . The business has grown and evolved a lot since 2008 . We are now a retail business as well as a direct consumer business . We became a very proud B Corp back in 2021 and we have started to grow the brand into more channels , into more categories and into some more geographies since 2008 . So it's been on a really exciting journey .
Speaker 2Well , that's really good . There's a lot of elements within that I want to unpack with you at that stage , but let's just complete the puzzle . How did you first become involved ?
Speaker 1So I joined Graze right at the very beginning of the pandemic . That feels almost like a lifetime ago . I became Chief Exec about 18 months after Graze had been acquired by Unilever that's our new parent company and I came in to lead the business at a time when none of us could meet face to face . So the first seven months in my time in role I wasn't able to meet my leadership team together . We had to do everything virtually , and it's been three years since then . So taking the business through a lot of transformation continue to drive growth into the business . It's been a really exciting journey .
Speaker 2Okay , let's unpack that and use that timeline . Let's start in that 2008 , because 2008 is famous in most people's minds as the financial crisis , which just shook all of the world's global markets . At that stage , where did Graze come from ? Where did the original idea ? I appreciate it's before your time , but how did it arrive ?
Speaker 1So it was founded by a group of friends who had originally started Love Film and , for anyone who maybe doesn't remember , love Film was almost like a precursor to Netflix , as we know today . It was busy sending DVDs through the post and the team who started Graze essentially took that same technology , that understanding of loyalty of subscriptions , and thought about how they could apply it to a new area of business , a new sector , and we're all personally frustrated by the sort of poor quality of snacks that you could get at the time and decided to go into the snacking business and that , as they say , is kind of . The rest is history . But I think it talks to actually how Graze was born and the fact that technology and data is something that runs still very much in Graze's DNA . It was how it was sort of born at the beginning and we consider it a competitive advantage still today .
Speaker 2Obviously we're going back a long time , because you mentioned that pre-pandemic seeming a long time ago Back in 2008, . There wasn't the craze so much for healthiness , environment and that type of stuff , so it was obviously quite a bold move and the move when the markets were against them at that stage . Was it a deliberate anti-move or move against the markets ?
Speaker 1I think it was recognizing that there was a segment of the population who wanted better snacks . Because if you cast your mind back at that time , it was really hard actually to find healthy snacks in the market . If you went into a corner shop or if you thought about a vending machine , you probably had really limited choices . That's vastly different to today . Right that's , you can find positively healthy snacks , kind of almost within arms reach of desire , wherever you may be . But at a time it was serving , you could argue , a niche of a population , but a population who wanted to have a healthier choice in snacking .
Speaker 1And it was incredibly disruptive , you know , to get snacks through the post , through an e-commerce platform back in 2008 . Was a radical kind of proposition and you know the business took time to grow and to mature . It's when you look at the historical growth trajectory of the business . It wasn't an immediate success . You know it didn't become a unicorn business overnight . It definitely took time to establish itself . But I think what's amazing is that we still have subscribers from those very early days subscribing to our business still , and I think that's testament to the fact that we do serve quite a unique need in the market .
Speaker 2Exploiting . As someone who out of garages on a fairly regular basis in the 2000s and 2010s , thank you , because I can appreciate the fact that there now is fruit and that type of stuff as an alternative , as opposed to just crisps and Mars bars and that type of stuff . So it grew . Then it did a transaction in the 2010 , early 2010s with a fairly big equity group . How did that work ?
Speaker 1So again before my time . But the equity investment was taken on to enable the business to expand in two critical areas . One was to expand our manufacturing capability into the UK . So it was quite a crucial enabler to , ultimately , the retail expansion that we took the business on in 2015 . But it also was an enabler to Graze's first international expansion , which was to the US , and so that equity investment enabled the business to take a stab at the US market , which is obviously sizeable . It's not a market that Graze is in today , but at its time , early stages of subscription or digital commerce businesses . Graze definitely had subscribers in every state in the US and that equity investment was important to being able to unlock that opportunity .
Speaker 2And that brings us sort of to where you started in sort of 2019 with the Unilever acquisition . What was Unilever looking for ?
Speaker 1So Unilever saw within the Graze business two critical things that it chose to acquire us on the basis of . One was that we were operating and continue to operate in a higher growth segment and sometimes their core business does , and often they'll look at acquisitions on the basis of revenue growth accelerators to their core business , which tends to be much more mature and healthy . Snacking is growing faster than the total snacking market and continues to be an accelerant for the food industry as a whole and it's still relatively small when you look at the size of the total snacking industry . And Unilever definitely recognised our competency around data and wanted , through the acquisition , to make sure that they were kind of upskilling , both on that direct consumer capability but also in terms of how we utilise data to drive either efficiency in our market , to drive a competitive advantage of how we work with our customers . That was an asset that Unilever saw as something that they wanted to acquire Graze for .
Speaker 2That's fascinating because you look at Graze , data wouldn't be the thing that leaps to mind as a valuable asset within it . I want to talk about Unilever and how you manage that relationship . Now , on the basis of Unilever's got an awful lot of big brands located in just about every territory in the world , how do you manage the relationship between someone , a business , that wants to promote a really , really strong independent brand that's separate from those other brands , when you are actually at the back and call it your masters , shall we say ? I think you said mothership before . How do you manage that tension ?
Speaker 1So I give Unilever a lot of credit . Actually they enable us to operate very autonomously but they are also there when we need them and I think actually that is a testament to how they support their acquired businesses and I can think of some very tangible examples of where that has added value to the Graze business . One was , as we were going through the pandemic , unilever had great knowledge of how to deliver manufacturing in a COVID , safe way and actually we took that playbook , said thank you very much and went and deployed it in our manufacturing operation . You know that was capability and knowledge from a medical perspective that we would never have had had . We stayed as our own organisation and I feel very proud of the fact that we had employees at Graze in our manufacturing operation through the pandemic who were saying actually they felt safer at work than they felt anywhere else and that for me was a real delight because it showed that we were really looking after our people . So you know , credit to Unilever on that front . They have also really supported us on things like cybersecurity because they have , you know again , fantastic competency .
Speaker 1They partner with a lot of the acquired businesses to do a full kind of cybersecurity audit and that helps us then as we think about kind of action plans , making sure that we make sure the business is on really strong foundations in that respect , and then we utilize the commercial relationships that they have , particularly with some of the grosses , to make sure that we are not just realising our opportunity as we stand as Graze , as an independent business working with those retailers , but how do we form part of , for example , a joint business plan with a customer ? And that's where again we leverage that relationship . So it's actually often it's a question that I get asked of how does that relationship work between Graze and Unilever ? It's been one that I have been delighted by over the three years that I've been in role . They really have enabled us to take the best of being part of the family .
Speaker 2And how much freedom do you get from the brand side of things and promoting Graze brand ?
Speaker 1Yeah , very much so . For example , we generate still all of our own creative . We have an in-house creative team , so that is very much kind of our part of the business to run . We became a B Corp once we had become acquired by Unilever and again , I think that's credit to them . They've supported us doing that , even though the core of Unilever is not at that stage , and so I think they recognise that . Again , graze is a brand that's part of what they acquired . Right , it was the brand itself . It's a very strong brand , as I said , the leading healthy snacking brand in the country , and again , they might support us in terms of making sure that we've got access to the best trends , but we run the business and the brand relatively autonomously .
Speaker 2I did find that fascinating . The B Corp came after the acquisition by who was driving the B Corp side of things .
Speaker 1Yeah , so we had actually started the process before we were acquired and then anyone who's gone through B Corp accreditation will know that that is is a process that takes time .
Speaker 1It is not a fast process , and so we completed that process post acquisition and it was driven by a number of really passionate individuals within the business who who wanted that external recognition of what we were doing as a business anyway , and I think that's what's really powerful about B Corp . We didn't change what Graze was doing because we wanted to become a B Corp . B Corp accreditation sort of validated how we were operating as business in the first place , and I think that's where it's really powerful right . It's acknowledging the fact that we are out there to provide more nutritious , more tasty snacks in a world where there's a lot of crap out there , frankly , and so that's been that was the biggest driver of our accreditation . But I think with any business which becomes a B Corp , they , as I said , appreciate the rigor that goes with that certification process and you need a couple of individuals within your business . We have a number who are , who are real passionate advocates for , for making that certification happen .
Speaker 2We've had a few guests who are B Corp certified . We've had one guest who provides that B Corp certification to talk through . I think one of the things that has come out is that there's it's almost a shock People might think all B Corp would be good , B Corp be good for marketing . They then look at it and an awful lot then stop on the basis of well , wait a minute , that's a two year journey , that's a three year journey . We've got to modify a lot of things . I think that's one of the good things out of it . It does tend to put off the people who are not aligned or are not willing to put the effort .
Speaker 1Yeah . So again for your listeners who maybe aren't as familiar , you need 80 points to secure your accreditation as a B Corp , the kind of average company . The first time they go through that assessment score around 50 . So I think it shows you actually that becoming a B Corp or being a B Corp , you are really at the kind of pinnacle of being a purpose driven business . And then the fact that you have to certify or re certify every three years drives that agenda of continuous improvement and the standards get harder . Right , you can't stand still as a B Corp , but I think that's
Purpose in Business Strategy
Speaker 1really positive .
Speaker 2But explore that underlying theme next . I know you're passionate about business purpose and we talked to some of our previous guests on that topic about how there's a lot of things about strategy , about mission and values and all that type of stuff , but bluntly , at core purpose , of which everyone agrees on and can clearly say , tends to trump everything , it tends to drive a culture which puts strategy plans in through the shredder . If you've got purpose right . Do you want to talk about that a little ?
Speaker 1Yeah , I'll share a perspective . I also consider myself a bit of a strategist at heart , so I always feel nervous when people talk about strategy going through a shredder . But if I put that to the side , I'm actually a very commercial leader who believes in purpose , and sometimes people can find that as a bit of a conundrum . And the reason why I say that is if we as businesses help solve consumer problems , then there is money to be made , there is a commercial opportunity there and actually if that can be done in a way that is positive for the person , that is positive for the community , positive for the environment , then that has to be a better way of doing business . But it fundamentally starts with are you solving a human problem ? And and therefore there is revenue to be generated from that ?
Speaker 1And I have no issue with talking about the fact that . You know we talk about a triple bottom line , which is people , planet and profit , and it has to be all three . It shouldn't be that we operate as a business which is just here to do good for for planet or , conversely , just here to do good for profit . I don't think either of those models are sustainable in the long term for business . But what's powerful is when you find a business that can do all three .
Speaker 2That trade off . You're effectively talking about short term versus medium stroke , long term there , because there's always the short term trade off of doing something which is helps profits in that short term .
Speaker 1I would challenge that . We undertook quite a significant packaging change earlier this year . That packaging change is better for people because it protects our products for longer , it gives us better stand out on shelf , that packaging material is more recyclable and it has a lower cost to us . So that for me is the perfect example actually of triple bottom line really happening in one project , happening at and at pace . I don't think the trade-off of profit , short-term purpose , long-term is . I think it's outdated .
Speaker 2It's one of the ones that has been through this cycle , through all that you talked about strategy , all the strategy experts over the last 40 or 50 years , there's always been that cycle of what are the directors there to do ? Who are they to serve ? At that moment and we went through in the 70s or 80s there was a movement about that wider background , that wider environment , etc . The 80s stroke , 90s got a bit more confused with the Wall Street Green , which was therefore you are there for your shareholders , boys and girls . That's all you've got to do . We've now come around to the other side of that in a much more stated way , a much more realistic way on that side . But it is quite hard , especially you have Unilever behind you . At that stage , if you're an average SME living on banks , borrowings etc . That can be a real challenge for them . At that stage , how would you encourage them to be looking at it ?
Speaker 1Without a doubt , a challenge , and I think many businesses us . Whilst we have a large parent , we are an SME business in many respects . We're faced with massive shifts in some of our input costs over the last 18 months and that has demanded of all of us in the business to really look at where do we put investment investment of our people , investment in the media , for example and we've had to make some tougher short-term choices , I would say , but I also believe that it has made us more efficient as a business and that's positive for the long term . So , whilst it has been driven by an inflection point on kind of the supply chain crisis and the energy crisis as we were confronted by , I think it has helped us build a better business , which should be benefits than then we sustain going forward .
Speaker 2I kind of like I come back to my the intro at that stage . That phrase healthy snacking brand . Sometimes you can get and I we might disagree on strategy documents which are 20 pages long and that if you can do a purpose in three words or four words or five words , that really encapsulates it and everyone believes in that kind of gets cuts through all the paperwork . Should we say at that stage ?
Speaker 1Absolutely . I don't think strategy needs to be long and drawn out by any means . Our mission as a business is to challenge the convention that snacks can't be good for you and tasty . It's not complicated but it's incredibly easy actually to understand . But it's our point of difference in the market and it's what I know makes a lot of people at Graves kind of get excited about the challenge that we have ahead .
Speaker 2I suppose you're tying everyone together at that one . There's a previous podcast whose phrase was helping people do amazing things and it kind of everyone tied into that purpose and that made it far easier when you had to make difficult decisions or far easier to have everyone facing in roughly the same way . Let's stick on that for a little bit . Because you're involved with a better business act movement , do you want to tell us a bit about that ?
Speaker 1Sure . So the Better Business Act is supported by a coalition of businesses across a really broad spectrum of very small SMEs that frankly make up a lot of the lifeblood of UK industry , to high street brands , retailers , brands like Graves , and that coalition is advocating for a change in company law to a very specific section , section 172 , which argues today that a director's responsibility as a company director , that their duty is to provide shareholder return ahead of all other aspects of managing the business , and we believe that's outdated . As a coalition , we believe that there should be change to company law to recognise that company directors in today's business environment should be considerate of the impact that they are generating to profit but alongside the impact that they are creating to community and to environment , and that actually , by holding a company director to only their fiduciary duty in return to shareholders , that that is an outdated view of the world .
Speaker 2It's outdated , but it's very common . On the legal side , an awful lot of business systems are based on the company , and also I should say congratulations , well done . You're the first one that's ever mentioned a specific section of the Companies Act . So first for the podcaster , that stage
Better Business Act and Grazi's Vision
Speaker 2. How much traction can we get there ? The government's so bogged down in so many different things at the moment . How much attention can you get for that ?
Speaker 1We've had really good cross-party engagement on this , done a number of days at Westminster , I've spoken at a select committee and so in that respect we believe that there is traction and you're seeing the volume of businesses that are supporting the Better Business Act . And my one ask would be to your listeners if you haven't signed up , please go to the Better Business Act and sign up and join the coalition to voice your support for it . So cross-party support . I think in terms of the actual translation of that into legislative change , it may manifest in a different way and as a coalition I don't think we're precious in terms of how it , how it truly manifests . The Section 172 changes is a relatively simple change to an act but it may be that it manifests in a different way . But it is with that belief that actually this is an opportunity for British business to be on the forefront of kind of the future of how business should be done . You're starting to see traction of this kind across different markets .
Speaker 1So there are a number of states in the US where there is legislation that is sort of going in this direction . I think it is unrealistic to expect all businesses can achieve a B Corp status , but with this , we could shift it and I think you're still seeing investment and the investment communities are supporting businesses and investment funds which are going into ESG . Now a lot of debate around greenwashing , around standards which I would welcome in many respects . I don't think any of us want to be part of a movement which is not truly authentic in terms of what it's trying to accomplish . There is a lot to be said actually around a consistent set of standards for how we measure ESG , which we are not there today . But I guess that's spirit of can we be at the forefront in British industry of attracting investment we know it also attracts great talent and being on the forefront of kind of the future of business I think is an exciting part of a coalition to be part of .
Speaker 2I come back a little to that purpose . I come back to that multifaceted angle of it . You talked briefly about there , about attracting employees . That type of stuff ties into purpose and then , as large as FDI , your investment from other countries coming in , where they see good things happening over here , which is something we are in desperate need of at the moment . So I want to come back to something you said earlier about coming in the early 2020 , where you had to come into a virtual environment because of the pandemic . You came in just shortly after the Unilever acquisition . How do you do that ? How do you adapt to working style , to take over a CEO when you're still trying to work out how teams works and all that type of stuff ? How does that work ? How did you do that ?
Speaker 1So I think , firstly , it's a testament to Grazi's culture . They were , or they are , as a business , incredibly welcoming to individuals coming in . It has an amazing spirit . I remember the early days of the pandemic . We were doing all of the crazy stuff that people were doing , you know yoga classes online , we had a weekly comedy show , quiz nights , like .
Speaker 1All of that was definitely alive and well in Grazi's culture and I think to some extent , the crisis that we were confronted by meant that I had all the permission I ever needed to be really choiceful over what were we going to go after .
Speaker 1I think , with a business like Grazi , where there are so many opportunities because there really are are actually being confronted by , you know , very different channel dynamics and having the need to then make some very specific priorities in terms of where we were going to put our bets as a business , particularly in the short term . You know the pandemic was demanding that of me and the leadership team , whether we wanted that or not . So that I think culture the fact that actually the pandemic created the right environment to be ruthless on our priorities and I really believe my background having been in businesses where they had multi-channel routes to market and understanding the different dynamics of those and having the really close proximity to what consumers need . That's one of the benefits of having a subscription business . We have a real live feed on how people are feeling about the business . That's a sort of consumer intimacy meant that it was an easier task than maybe others may have found it . It was a true delight . It's a great business and I've really enjoyed leading it .
Speaker 2For our listeners . I obviously can't see us because they're listening at that stage . I would note that you've been smiling as you've been talking about Grazi throughout the last half hour that we've been actually chatting about it . It's easy to tell that you're really passionate about it . Can I just on that , if you were to look back in , say five years time , on your time at Grazi not saying it'd be five years , but look back in five years what would you want to see as your impact on Grazi ?
Speaker 1So I talk about Grazi being a business that , when I joined , was a sort of gangly teenager and I'm aiming to make into a slightly more mature 20-something . What does that mean ? So we are clearer in terms of our brand and commercial priorities than I believe we were when I came in . We have done an enormous amount of transformation of our operations through my time and we continue to do that as we mature the business , as we continue to make improvements in terms of safety , the quality of our operations , our financial controls systems . Those are things that are important so that as the business matures , as it becomes more scaled , that those foundations are really solid and that , as a business , we have continued to keep purpose at our heart , despite the changing dynamics externally , a changing ownership model . We are currently going through our recertification stage on B Corp and I'm keeping fingers crossed and confident that we will recertify with a higher score than we certified with originally . So those are the three things that , as I look back on my time , I will be delighted by .
Diversity and Purpose in Business
Speaker 2I do want to get something else in here . You're a member of chief , the women's private executive network , also a member of dial , the diversity review side of things . There's a lot of lip service that gets paid to this . How do you see that as coming of age , because there is more of a flavour of it in today's boardroom ? How do you see that coming of age ?
Speaker 1Yeah , it's something I've reflected on . I think you have those threads through your life that you don't necessarily realise until you're a little bit older . So I'll talk about one of my threads . Mine has been that I have always appreciated and valued diverse perspectives in the room . I've genuinely always felt like it's made my brain better and the strategy work I do more strong and , as I said , it's one of those threads that it's only sort of now that you realise that thread has existed .
Speaker 1But actually I go back almost to when I was at university . I went to London School of Economics and about half of the population base at that time was international and I was surrounded by people who had had totally different life experiences to the experience that I had had , and I relished that . I thoroughly enjoyed it . If I then fast forward , I had the opportunity when I was working at Coca-Cola in the UK to go out and I relocated to Atlanta to work in the global team and again I was amazed .
Speaker 1You know , I felt like I'd worked at Coke for seven years . I thought I knew that business inside out and then all of a sudden I was meeting teams who were from the Philippines or from Mexico or from Japan and all of a sudden realised actually how diverse that business was and how much I could learn through those experiences . And then that has just continued . So I am selfishly invested in driving diversity within my leadership team , driving it within UK business . That's why I support things like the dial review , because I fundamentally think personally it makes my brain better and I think it makes the work of business that you do better as well .
Speaker 2I think there is an old quote , possibly a Mark Twain quote . I'm trying to remember her that I say which is roughly , travel is the cure for ignorance , actually seeing things . Have you been to Japan ?
Speaker 1I haven't had the opportunity . I was due to go out actually when the tsunami hit and we called it , we said we wouldn't go out . It was a business trip . We didn't want to distract the local team . So I've never had the opportunity to .
Speaker 2I just encourage all of us to actually go to a culture which is so alien to the UK and if I had my way I'd get through all teenagers going out there at that stage to actually work out that English doesn't solve anything when the locals don't understand it at that stage . But , just as you say , gave you that there are alternative perspectives which are equally as valid as yours , and getting that around the board table is absolutely critical .
Speaker 1Yeah , and if I look at the leadership team that I've curated , nurtured around me at Graze , I've got individuals who have had a long tenure at Graze . I've had individuals that I've brought into the business who have got experience of Unilever , who , particularly in the supply chain of side of things , I wanted that capability . I've brought in teams who have had far more recent experiences of being in startup and scale-up businesses , because I appreciate , actually , that we each then bring a different perspective that means that the Graze business is stronger as a result of it .
Speaker 2Very good , that says Last couple of things . Because we're running out of time , could you just give us a quick description of the other CEO , the Chief Eating Officer ?
Speaker 1The Chief Eating Officer was a creative asset that we came up with two years ago at Graze . It was a much loved squirrel and she definitely had a big heart for our Graze snacks . So , yeah , there was a moment at which I thought I was going to be surpassed by a red squirrel , but thankfully I've stuck around longer .
Speaker 2Okay , and I've got to ask what your favourite Graze product is .
Speaker 1So this is well known , certainly within the Graze team . My favourite product is a punnet that we make called Graze Dark Choc Cherry Tart , and it's thoroughly delicious .
Speaker 2And it's healthy .
Speaker 1And it's healthy . It's made up of cherries , beautiful dark chocolate button , which is very low in sugar , and pecans , which are very good from a fiber perspective . So , yeah , very , very yummy and good for you too .
Speaker 2Excellent . I'll try and find that on the website once we've finished on this side of things . Thank you so much , joanna , for joining us today sharing your story . Some really good stuff in there , especially about that underlying theme of purpose which seems to run through quite a lot of it , which I'd want to encourage . Our business . This is just to really think about what is the purpose of being . And thank you to our audience for listening to our latest episode of Business Udals and Doodles . We hope you enjoyed our conversation . Don't forget to subscribe to get updates and notifications of when our latest episodes are available .
