My life in food and hospitality - Michael Caines

High-profile chef and entrepreneur Michael Caines shares his career story, from the origins of his passion for food to his numerous business ventures. His journey from talented but wayward college student to acclaimed TV chef sheds light on the ingredients needed for success in the hospitality industry. 

Having worked with Raymond Blanc and the Williams Formula One team among others, Michael is now chef owner of Lympstone Manor Estate in Devon, as well as being a consultant to ambitious hotels and restaurants.

Transcript

Mark Greaves:

Today I'm delighted that our guest is Michael Caines MBE, one of the UK's most celebrated and acclaimed chefs, a successful and imaginative hotelier, and spokesperson for the hospitality industry. I'm Mark Greaves from PKF Francis Clark and I'll be your host. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast to get updates and notifications on when our latest episodes are available. Hi, Michael, how are you today?

Michael Caines:

I'm great, Mark, thank you. It's great to be on the podcast.

Mark Greaves:

Thank you. Where are you joining us from?

Michael Caines:

Well, I'm joining you from my office here at Lympstone Manor. I've literally just finished the service, so looking forward to having this wonderful chat this afternoon.

Mark Greaves:

Sorry to disturb the run of your business at that stage. Now, you've mentioned Lympstone there, you run a number of restaurants on the hotels around the southwest. How would you describe your group of businesses?

Michael Caines:

Well, it's a relatively small group of businesses and we're predominantly in restaurants, but obviously, hotels and restaurants as a main focus. But also, we do consultancies. I use my time to consult and develop other projects for people, and also do restaurants under the name of Michael Caines, if you like, by Michael Caines, in hotels, perhaps in London or elsewhere, should we have the opportunity to do so. Or you simply just consult behind the scenes and give direction. So, it's an element of consultation in terms of using your time and experience, and also very visual restaurant, such as Mickeys Beach or here at the Hotel Lympstone Manor and the two restaurants we have here.

Mark Greaves:

So, is there a unifying brand to your hotel and restaurants? Is there a unifying theme?

Michael Caines:

We call it the Michael Caines Collection, which, under that, we have a broard church, a pastry business. As I say, the consultancy. We also bring, amongst that, the Academy, which we do in partnership with Exeter College. But basically, we call it the Michael Caines Collection and it's a collective of businesses, partnerships, and even, in that collection, promote events and things that we do, as and when. So, we give it that umbrella branding of The Collection.

Mark Greaves:

I like that term umbrella. We'll come back to that one. And what's your day-to-day role?

Michael Caines:

Well, I guess, day-to-day I would describe myself as the CEO. I'm operating the business, but it's a unique role where you're not only running the business with a team of people, you're actually very much the focus of the business. So, a lot of the things that are being developed within the business and being managed and pushed forward are also, you're heavily involved with as well as being the chef/owner, you are also incredibly busy running the business from the kitchen sometimes. So, like today, I finished my service and I joined you straight after. So, we had busy lunch here. Last night, we had an event with Porsche, that was 210 people and I was in the thick of it there.

So, it's an interesting... And of course you are the host. You're always very much the person that people want to see, and your guests are pleased to see you in and around the business, either in the kitchen or out front, seeing them after dinner or after lunch. So, it's a really hands-on role. It's a creative role, because you've got to think about, creatively, whether it be spaces, developing concepts and ideas, or whether it be creative with the numbers. There's a lot of things that you do within your role, from marketing to sales, all the way through to budgeting and forecasting, and then the actual doing. So, it's a very diverse role.

Mark Greaves:

It is. It also sounds very busy in there. I assume that sleep is one of those optional extras?

Michael Caines:

Yeah. They say that not enough sleep and working in a stressful environment is not particularly healthy, and there are two things in hospitality that you can guarantee you're going to get. Not a lot of sleep, and a fair amount of stress. But it's enjoyable. It's funny how often, when people say to me, "How do you feel about working so many hours?" I say, "Well, first of all, it doesn't feel like going to work, because you enjoy what you do. And secondly, tiredness is a state of mind. Sometimes you can push through feeling tired, but eventually it catches you up. So, you've got to make sure you take the time out when you can to relax and recuperate."

Because it's not healthy, ultimately, to be working too many hours and not having a decent amount of time, a break as such, mentally or physically for that matter. It's important that you do have that and give you that space, and then that allows you to think and re-energize yourself, because you're very much a team leader and a lot of people are looking up to you. And so, therefore, if you are flagging and not on form, then that can affect the performance of the team around you.

Mark Greaves:

I always thought that's a nice example of leadership versus management. Leadership is making sure you're leading by example as well as managing your staff.

Michael Caines:

Correct. Yeah, fine balance to make. A lot of people also bring too much of, perhaps, their feeling of, "Let's be friends," into the workplace, when you really just need to be colleagues and respectful. And it's a balancing act, especially when you spend so much time at work, your social life starts to feel like an extension of your work life.

Mark Greaves:

It is that awkward balance, as they say. So, let's go back to the beginning. Where does your passion for food come from?

Michael Caines:

Well, I grew up in a large family, I was the youngest of six children. I was born in Exeter, grew up in Cullompton, and I was eight when we moved back to Exeter. And large garden, cooking at home with mum, lovely meals around the table. Obviously, we were six kids and mum and dad were teachers, so we didn't want for anything, but we didn't eat out all the time, we had a humble childhood. But I enjoyed cooking with mum, and we grew stuff in the garden and so you cultivated your own vegetables and picked your fruit and we made it into jam and baked. So, I really enjoyed that, I didn't really think of it as a career until the end of my schooling, when I then decided to go to Exeter College. And so, I went from cooking at home to suddenly, it's going to be a profession.

Mark Greaves:

Well, I understand you were a Student of the Year at that college?

Michael Caines:

Yeah, in my second year I managed to turn what was a fairly difficult first year around, and then end up being Student of the Year. I think the two differences between the first year and the second year were very much about me maturing and realizing that everything I was doing was affecting my chances of going on and being successful. And then suddenly realizing, everything I was doing could prepare me to be successful. And I think it was understanding that my behavior and the way I was acting was actually affecting me more than it was anyone else. And so, in the second year, I knuckled down and got Student of the Year, which is fantastic.

Mark Greaves:

You're quite young for that level of maturing at that stage. Is there something in that catering education that perhaps forces you to grow up a bit faster?

Michael Caines:

Yes, I think so. But also, I think you've got some good mentors, so I was very, very lucky. One of the lecturers at Exeter College at that time, gentleman called Bill Heads, took me to one side, because I felt like I was being picked on and he said, "If you've got talent and you don't push it, then that'll be a waste." And he said, "Sometimes you've got to take criticism constructively, because I'm pointing out that you could do better." So, it taught me to be more self-appraising. And whilst I would say that there was a part of me that was growing up, there was also a big part of me that suddenly realised that this is what I wanted to do, and if I was going to do it well, I needed to have that disciplined approach.

And that served me well, once I realised that that was a key part of what it was to be a successful chef, was to have that self-discipline. Then you realise you can't rely on other people to appraise what you do, you've got to constantly appraise what you are doing. And I think that was a really good lesson to learn early on. And I think it was, perhaps, the fear of being thrown out of college after the first year that made me realise I needed to buckle up and get back on the saddle and dig in. So, yeah.

Mark Greaves:

I suppose that's the lessons in life at that stage. But after that, after a few years, you ended up... And forgive my pronunciation of this, but you ended up at Le Manoir aux Quat' Saisons with Raymond Blanc.

Michael Caines:

Oh, you did it. Yep.

Mark Greaves:

Oh, I got that right, did I? Excellent.

Michael Caines:

Le Manoir aux Quat' Saisons with Raymond Blanc, yeah. No, I worked in London for about a year and a half at Grosvenor House and there was a Michelin Star restaurant and it was whilst I was there that I saw Raymond Blanc do a demonstration, and I thought, "Wow, this is good. This guy's really good." And then heard about Le Manoir aux Quat' Saisons, which is a beautiful country house in the middle of Oxfordshire. And with the supply in cuisine at the time, it was very much a rising star. It had two Michelin Stars and it had opened about three years before, and I just joined it and I just stayed there for three years. I fell in love with the idea of this beautiful country house hotel, amazing bedrooms, and this wonderful food, and this sense of place. And I thought, though very formative years of my career, it was a very important three years of my life spent there.

Mark Greaves:

Well, we might come back to it. There's a bit of a theme in that, I did eat at that restaurant in the early 2000s after a deal. I didn't realise you'd been there so early on in their develop. Why has that business been so successful for so long?

Michael Caines:

Well, I think there's two fundamental factors. One is its location just outside of London, about an hour, in the heart of Oxfordshire, the beautiful County of Oxford. And secondly, it's the guy that created it, Raymond Blanc, his passion for what he does and his commitment, if you like, to excellence in all that it is. And I think when you look back in the late '70s, early '80s, that was when the country house scene was starting to emerge. And places like Chewton Glen, Gidleigh Park where I used to work, and places like Le Manoir aux Quat' Saisons were becoming very popular destinations with also, as a part of that, the food experience being a part of that.

And I think the longevity in that appeal, is the fact that Raymond's still involved, he's very much still the chef patron, even though he doesn't own it anymore. He's very much the figurehead of that place, and I think that's also embellished by his own personality, his TV shows, and it has become a popular household name as far as that's concerned. And he's still there, so I think that's the big, big factor. And when you get there, it is a stunning property, and it does make you feel very special and it's the sort of place that you want to go back to.

Mark Greaves:

It is very much on that side. And I still do catch, I think his TV shows go on a Saturday or something like that?

Michael Caines:

Yeah.

Mark Greaves:

You then ran off to France for a little bit, but then you came back to Devon for Gidleigh Park. How did that opportunity arise?

Michael Caines:

Well, having spent three years at Le Manoir aux Quat' Saisons, Raymond suggested I go to France, so I spent two really important years at two 3-Stars, Bernard Loiseau and also Robuchon. And it was whilst working at Robuchon where Raymond Blanc called me and said, "Listen, they're looking for a new Head Chef at Gidleigh Park. Shaun Hill, who was the chef at the time, was departing and Raymond put me forward for the job. So, I flew back to Devon in March that year and cooked a few meals and got the job, and that was it.

Suddenly, I was starting in June and I finished off my role in Paris in April, did some work in a brasserie, experienced that in Paris, a Parisian brasserie, which is always an interesting thing to see. And then learned how to make bread in a bakery. And then I felt that I had elements of my training that I thought I would like to have achieved, rounded off, and then I headed back to Devon, where I took up the job as the Head Chef at Gidleigh Park at a tender age of 25.

Mark Greaves:

Whoa. And how did that differ? What was the differences and what were the similarities between Gidleigh and Quat' Saisons?

Michael Caines:

Well, the similarities is that it was a hotel restaurant scenario, where you've got breakfast, lunch, and dinner seven days a week. The difference was just the level of the standard of the place in terms of the kitchen space, the number of staff you had to work with, and also the professionalism, in a way. In those days, Gidleigh Parker is very much a business that had evolved to a certain point, and there wasn't a massive investment at that time spent, but it had evolved. And I was going into a fairly rudimentary environment in terms of kitchen expenditure, but I could see the potential and I could see that there was enough there for me to do the job that I wanted to do, and I knew it'd give me the kind of platform that I needed.

So, I wasn't really worried about that. And I was promised that I would have some equipment forthcoming, and I would be able to develop what I wanted whilst working there. And that was the case.

Mark Greaves:

It did develop and become an establishment of Devon in terms of hotels and restaurants. You then started working with Andrew Brownsword?

Michael Caines:

Yes. I took on the restaurant operations at the Hotel Royal Clarence in Exeter. So, in 2000, we opened up the doors, we had a lovely champagne bar, we had a cafe bar, and of course, a wonderful fine dining experience. And we ran the Well House Tavern as well. As well as the banqueting and conferencing, so the operations for the food and beverage were run by us. And it was a chance meeting with Andrew, whose daughter went to Exeter University. He popped in for lunch and I'd written a brochure about my desire to want to buy the hotel. And he rang me up and said, "How are you getting on?"

And I said, "Well, not particularly very well." And he said, "Well, would you like to buy it together?" And I said, "Absolutely." And so, we bought the Royal Clarence together and, at the same time, we created a new business relationship, which became Andrew Brownsword Hotels concept, which was called the ABode Hotel Group, and we went on to open six hotels together. And within those hotels, we had Michael Caines restaurants, cafes, and pubs. And so, effectively, the food and beverage operations were run under my name. And in that time, also, he acquired Gidleigh Park as well, and then that was The Bath Priory, which is his first hotel that he bought with his wife, became a part of that group, and then we grew the group from there.

So, that's how I met Andrew. It was a chance meeting and it led to the purchasing of the Royal Clarence. I had a minor share hold in it, but I had a lot of input into its future and success at the time.

Mark Greaves:

I do miss the Royal Clarence. I did a really good deal celebration in there in the early 2000s. I think I met you at that one, although I probably wasn't the best for wear after the deal celebration, shall we say. I do miss that one. I understand they're now redeveloping it into flats.

Michael Caines:

Yes, it's very, very... It's sad. I can only describe the word as, it's sad to see the Clarence, if you like, the Royal Clarence, in the state that it is. And I think it's a shame that there won't be a hotel there and those memories are there, but the hotel's gone. But I think it's good to see something there, and if it's apartments, then at least we'll get the Clarence frontage back and the Cathedral Green can return back to the beating heart of Exeter once more. But it's a great shame to see the hotel gone, but I had some incredible memories of 15 years, I think, in all. And nobody can take that away.

Mark Greaves:

It was absolutely brilliant. And at the hotel, when you're staying there, I've never seen a hotel with so many crooked floors in my life. It was just brilliant. Okay, that starts your development of that slightly different business concept of you consulting, you being in partnership with other people and that type of stuff. Obviously, a crowded marketplace for hotels and restaurants. How did you set yourself apart from the others? What made you different?

Michael Caines:

Well, I think, initially when you take on a business, the first thing we learned is that, actually, it's very, very different to run a business to running a kitchen. And there were so many factors. And I remember Exeter, at the time, there wasn't a huge amount of choice, and so, when I looked at the marketplace, there were some really lovely shops where you could go and buy some incredible clothes, but nowhere to go out and wear them. And so, it struck me that, actually, there was plenty of money in Exeter, Marsh Barton had lots of top car manufacturers and, clearly, there was enough money around the area, but there seemed to be a lack of places to go out and eat and drink.

And so, having a restaurant in the heart of Exeter, in those days, really did ignite people's imagination. And I think that, even though I went to ask for a bank account, a lot of people said that what we're trying to do hadn't been done before, so didn't think there was a place for a champagne bar in Exeter. But actually, what we did is, we pitched into the market with a product that was relatively smart and good service, serving really good food at affordable prices locally. And I think that captured the imaginations locally, and it contrasted that with casual operation in the cafe bar and a simple offer in the pub. And it became a very, very busy business and then you learn how to run a business, you could control the payroll.

And I think what was good in those early days, before I met Andrew Brownsword, is that we ran a difficult business, but we ran it and learned a lot of important lessons. And then, by the time Andrew Brownsword bought the hotel, and with it my business at the time, we celebrated, much like you, the deal, because the deal really was about working in partnership to develop a chain of hotels together and the Royal Clarence being the first of six in the end.

But I feel what was special about that, is that you suddenly... Where you struggled, you suddenly found a partner, where he could bring to the table some of the resource and some of, I guess, the investment as well, when we would've struggled or found it more difficult to have developed. So, that partnership came along at the right time, it allowed me to then progress while having learned the business at the ground level. It allowed me, then, to progress my business skills, as well as my entrepreneurial skills in a different direction, and help Andrew create a successful chain of restaurants whilst learning some important lessons along the way.

Mark Greaves:

Well, learning from mistakes is the only real way to learning business, but that partnership, akin to that, we've got quite a few other family businesses that we've talked to, where they're bringing non-execs and it's allowing an outsider, giving them some space and realizing what they bring, rather than just try and do it all yourself at that stage.

Michael Caines:

The great word is delegation. You have your strengths and your weaknesses. It's to work on those strengths and to those strengths, and then the weaknesses can be you. You could be that liability if you want to hold onto everything, or you can bring people in that can bring an element of expertise, or a focus in an area that you might have a good understanding in, but you can't do everything, you can't be everywhere, and you have to trust and let go.And the only way you can do that is to delegate and entrust people.

And I think that's important. You can't run a business like hospitality from the boardroom, but what you can do is, you can have a clear strategy and understanding of what it is you want to achieve, and then bring in the right players to make that achievable. And that's a difficult balance to have around the table, but it's also a very difficult business model to execute, because there are so many variables in hospitality that make it a very challenging environment, especially at the moment when you've got a cost of living crisis and you've got rising energy costs, etc. So, you've got to be nimble, you've got to be flexible, but you need to also let go and trust in others.

Mark Greaves:

I think it's that balance between staying in touch with the frontline, which you have to in hospitality, but also having some really good people around you at that stage. Just a couple of other things you were involved in. Obviously, at that stage, your TV career started. We talked to Adam Henson in the last series about balancing that. Obviously, the TV brings exposure, but it also means a distraction from the business. How did you walk that tightrope?

Michael Caines:

Well, sometimes you need to learn to say no. It is as simple as that. You can become a TV junkie, you can get caught up with the fame, and that's very short-lived, often. And also, you need to remember that your core business is not... You're not an actor, you're not a TV celebrity, you're a chef. So, whilst chefing has become entertaining, it's become a part of our staple, things come and go and things move on, and you become flavour the month and then, eventually, somebody new and something new and shiny comes along and then you move on. So, I've always looked at TV almost like endurance. I think that there are two elements about TV that are important. One is your personality, and the other part is to be relevant. And to be relevant doesn't necessarily mean that you necessarily have to do something particularly outrageous. It's about being consistent in your approach.

If you're consistently up the top of your game, then you'll become a very good go-to person to extract out of somebody a point of view, or somebody that's going to qualify something to be important, or to be a judge on a competition because you have stature. So, the important thing is, your personality comes out because, ultimately, you're trying to engage with the viewers. And the other thing is, your credibility is really important; who you are, where you're from, what you've achieved. And in that regard, people do be sure of it, very carefully, look at your past, views, and the things you've got on social media. And so, you've got to be careful, because once you become a product to TV, you really can be exposed in a way where people meet you in the street and they already think they know you, so it encroaches on your privacy.

But also, it will mean to say that if you have a particular view and you use your platform to say it, then you will be criticised and sometimes abused. But I think it's a balance. So, main thing is, I always say, don't give up your day job and also be humble. And remember, what made you interesting is because you're good at what you do, so if you abandon that and you become less relevant, you then become somebody that's got a nice personality, but no real standing or stature. You're less interesting.

Mark Greaves:

I suppose we're all trying to adapt to the modern world and social media and having a lot of opinions tracked. Other interesting things that you've done, you were also involved in the Williams Formula 1 team?

Michael Caines:

Yes, I was involved, actually, for 10 years. And that was actually up into the midst of Covid, yes. I don't go racing with Williams anymore, but I did it for 10 years, and that was incredible. And what it really involved was, hospitality in Formula 1 is really important. They've got their sponsors, their VIPs, and if you look in the paddock, you've got their motor homes, and in the motor homes they're entertaining, and they've got different flaws. And so, what we did is, we got involved with Williams, so we shaped their hospitality so that we give all of the sponsors a really exceptional experience. So, some of the team from Williams came down to train in our restaurants with service, we trained the chefs, we developed menus, and then we seconded our chefs to the team. And it was a really great partnership and we used to do all of the European races. And I would occasionally go away and go to Abu Dhabi, Dubai, and do a couple of the America and then Monaco, British Grand Prix.

It was really good, but it's very time-consuming and now, the calendar is longer than ever. But at the same time, it was a wonderful experience. And I think what you realise, the synergy between Formula 1 and cooking at a very high level, is the attention to detail. It's that precision planning and the execution, that teamwork, and that singular focus to want to be the best you can be within that base that you're operating in. And the Formula 1 is a very concentrated, really tight team of individuals, all focused on one goal, and that is to win. And so, not unlike the kitchen, there's some similar traits of personalities that you find within them. And it's all about managing people, managing expectations, and galvanizing a team to be focused on achieving a goal.

Mark Greaves:

Well, you mentioned Covid there, as we went through it. We're trying this podcast to look at what positives came out of the horrific experience that was the pandemic. You managed... And I must admit, I haven't seen someone time it this, perhaps, badly, you could say. You opened The Cove Restaurant in March 2020.

Michael Caines:

Yeah.

Mark Greaves:

And everyone remembers March 2020 for different reasons. Being positive at it, what did you learn from the pandemic? What was the positives that came out of it? Apart from, "Don't open a restaurant at the very start of it."

Michael Caines:

Yeah. I think we learned to be grateful for what normal was. I think we took for granted all of the things, our social liberties were suddenly taken away. We were told we couldn't go out, we couldn't mix with people, and we took things like restaurants and going out and meeting people for granted. And I think what I learned from it, is that the restaurants will always be important. Socializing is important. Getting around the table and sharing a meal and a glass of wine, or whatever it might be of your choice, is important. And what I learned, also, is that what makes a place that the people, both the guests that come and frequent Lympstone Manor and the staff, it was a very empty building that felt soulless and it was designed to be a place for people to come and be a part of and enjoy.

And all of a sudden, it was empty and it was quite soulless. And so, you realise how social we are as a people, how important it is that we interact and we celebrate and we commiserate, whatever it might be, you talked to it yourself, when you do a big deal, you go out, you have a lovely meal and a few bottles of champagne or whatnot later. And people want to create memories. And I think food memories and things like that, they're all the things that are really precious to society. And that's, I think, what I learned, is how important that is.

It's easy to not decide not to go to a restaurant, because you may not be able to afford it, or you just want to stay at home and enjoy the comforts at home. But when you've been stuck in your house for a few months, the first thing you want to do is get out and enjoy being social, and that's what I learned, really, is the restaurants, the hotels, they have an important part to play in society. And that was very evident, really, for me.

Mark Greaves:

There were some very doom-laden forecasts, I'm glad to see the rebound on the hospitality industry that has eventually come through. Hopefully, it will continue this year despite the weather in the UK.

Michael Caines:

Yeah. Just on that point, we have a few challenges, like all businesses right now in this immediacy, but nevertheless, it's about bouncing back for them.

Mark Greaves:

So, what's next for the Group then? I think eclectic is about the best description I've got for your hotels and restaurants at the moment. What's next for the Group?

Michael Caines:

Well, I think we've got to consolidate this year. We've got some challenges in the seafront at Mickeys with the works that are going on and the long, interrupted weather patterns that we're getting in the winter. We've got a big business here at Lympstone Manor, which is growing, but we need to attract more internationals, we need to think about the offer in terms of what people want. A spa, wellbeing, and additional rooms. But also, we've got a rising cost that we need to tamper, whether it be staff costs, energy costs. So, there's a new model we're emerging from this year, which I think, last year, we were caught off guard with rising costs. And I think we're getting on top of that.

We also recognise the importance of overseas people, like the Americans and also the Europeans coming and frequenting our businesses. And we need to think about, also, how important it is to think about that next generation of spend here in the UK. 96% of our business is UK-based, and you need to be thinking about being children friendly, dog friendly, and also, you've got to provide those facilities in a way where you still offer adults the chance to have time away. So, it's really interesting. So, our next challenge, really, is perhaps to look at doing something in the capital, perhaps a consultancy there with a restaurant, perhaps also to look at doing some event business, to start an event business, weddings and events, because we're finding a lot of people are asking if we do it, and we're like, "No, not at the moment."

And also, really, I think for us, it's also trying to recognise that the hospitality market is, at the moment, quite distressed. And it's better that you wait and be patient before you make your next step. Be certain that people want the concept that you're trying to bring to the high street or whatever it is, because everything's changed. You can walk through Exeter today and there's so many vacant spaces, whether it be retail or restaurants. There's only so much money people have got to spend. There's only so many times in the week that people will go out and eat. So, you have to think about what concepts you want to deliver. And I think, in that regard, you also need to think about where your restaurant's going to be and what type of offer it's going to be.

So, I think, for us, it's about consolidation. We're looking to develop forward, but we'd like to think there's some partnerships we can do, like Ascot, Wimbledon, where you can be in amazing places and have your brand presence there. And then that leads them back to Lympstone Manor, where you can pick up on the marketing activities that you have out into those areas, like Ascot, and then bring your brand back to life by getting people to come to the Southwest, which is a very unique experience, which is hard to just replicate anywhere else.

Mark Greaves:

Very much so. Let's not get started on redesigning city centers, because that's a whole separate topic. And we're just about out of time. Can I end with just one question which we've got to tack onto this? What is your favorite recipe? If you had one of the dishes of your various establishments to recommend, which one would you recommend?

Michael Caines:

That's a really good question and it's hard to answer. Yeah, it's like saying, "What's your favorite child?" You love them all, but very differently. But I think, for the viewer, I think one of the... I really do enjoy making a great risotto. It's a simple thing to do, but it's also a very difficult thing to get right. And something like a risotto, it's good too, because it's very versatile; it can be meat, vegetarian, or pescatarian. So, I'd like a risotto. Risotto is a great dish, I've become quite fond of them. I used to hate them, because they weren't cooked properly. But once you know how to cook a beautiful risotto, they could be so delicious. So, I'd say that's a good one for you.

Mark Greaves:

You're ringing a vague bell. I think it was mushroom risotto that I was eating in the Royal Clarence, possibly going back all that way. But we are going back 20 years now.

Michael Caines:

Still as good. But yeah, wouldn't surprise me that you might've tried the risotto.

Mark Greaves:

That's excellent. Thank you very much for that, Michael. That was really good. Very interesting. Obviously, a raconteur on that, but it was good in terms of bringing out those stresses, the difficulties of business, as well as the positive side and some of the management lessons in there. So, thank you very much. And thank you to our audience for listening to our latest episode of Business Noodles. Hope that you've enjoyed our conversation. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast to get updates and notifications on when our latest episodes are available. Thank you.