In this episode of The Renegade Lawyers Podcast, dive into the world of legal firm growth strategies with Kate Nachazel from Fireproof. Discover how the largest PI firm in the Midwest achieved monumental success by embracing EOS and the unique insights from Fireproof's first full-time employee. Learn how intentionality and strategic investments in non-legal roles can propel your firm forward. Tune in for an in-depth look at the accountability coaching program that's transforming law firms nationwide.
Ben Glass is a nationally recognized personal injury and long-term disability insurance attorney in Fairfax, VA.
Since 2005, Ben Glass and Great Legal Marketing have been helping solo and small firm lawyers make more money, get more clients and still get home in time for dinner. We call this TheGLMTribe.com
What Makes The GLM Tribe Special?
In short, we are the only organization within the "business builder for lawyers" space that is led by two practicing lawyers.
One thing we're sure you've noticed is that despite the variety of options within our space, no one else is mixing
the actual practice of law with business building in the way that we are.
There are no other organizations who understand the highs and lows of running a small law firm and are engaged in talking to real clients. That is what sets GLM apart from every other organization, and it is why we have had loyal members that have been with us for two-decades.
We've always been proud of the tools we give lawyers to create the law firms of their dreams. We know exactly what modules you should, software you should utilize, and the strategies you need to employ to build a law-firm that is a cash-generating machine. When someone initially becomes a GLM member, you can bet that they're joining for the tactics and tools that we offer.
In this episode of The Renegade Lawyers Podcast, dive into the world of legal firm growth strategies with Kate Nachazel from Fireproof. Discover how the largest PI firm in the Midwest achieved monumental success by embracing EOS and the unique insights from Fireproof's first full-time employee. Learn how intentionality and strategic investments in non-legal roles can propel your firm forward. Tune in for an in-depth look at the accountability coaching program that's transforming law firms nationwide.
Ben Glass is a nationally recognized personal injury and long-term disability insurance attorney in Fairfax, VA.
Since 2005, Ben Glass and Great Legal Marketing have been helping solo and small firm lawyers make more money, get more clients and still get home in time for dinner. We call this TheGLMTribe.com
What Makes The GLM Tribe Special?
In short, we are the only organization within the "business builder for lawyers" space that is led by two practicing lawyers.
One thing we're sure you've noticed is that despite the variety of options within our space, no one else is mixing
the actual practice of law with business building in the way that we are.
There are no other organizations who understand the highs and lows of running a small law firm and are engaged in talking to real clients. That is what sets GLM apart from every other organization, and it is why we have had loyal members that have been with us for two-decades.
We've always been proud of the tools we give lawyers to create the law firms of their dreams. We know exactly what modules you should, software you should utilize, and the strategies you need to employ to build a law-firm that is a cash-generating machine. When someone initially becomes a GLM member, you can bet that they're joining for the tactics and tools that we offer.
I'm curious about your journey because you worked inside the firm for years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so Mike Morris law firm. We are the largest personal injury law firm in the Midwest. We do well. We will do over $200 million in settlements, resolutions, verdicts this year. We are on track to double in five years. That is the goal and we have made every decision with the firm with intention. That's probably been one of John's biggest gifts to Michael is being able to sit down at the beginning of the year in January and say, ok, what do we want this year? Where do we want to go? And let me turn on the dials to get there.
Speaker 3:Welcome to the Renegade Lawyer podcast, the show where we asked the questions why aren't more lawyers living flourishing lives and inspiring others? And can you really get wealthy while doing only the work you love with people you like? Many lawyers are. Get ready to hear from your host, ben Glass, the founder of the law firm Ben Glass Law in Fairfax, virginia, and Great Legal Marketing, an organization that helps good people succeed by coaching, inspiring and supporting law firm owners. Join us for today's conversation.
Speaker 1:Everyone. This is Ben Glass Renegade Lawyer podcast. Welcome back to the program. I'm so fortunate I get each and every episode to interview someone who's inside or outside of legal profession who's making a ding in the world, and today's going to be really interesting because I'm talking to Kate Neckhazel. Kate is one of the coaches with fireproof. A lot of people have heard of fireproof or fireproof masterclass or fireproof performance. We'll get all of that straight, kate. And Kate was actually fireproof's first full time employee after having worked and interned with Mike Morris's firm, very prominent firm up in Michigan. And so, kate, thanks for taking some time out for us today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here have this conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I talk to a lot of lawyers and more and more fireproof comes up in conversation. Of course there's a great book for folks who haven't read it, called Fireproof where? And tell me if I don't have this story right. But basically, mike Morris took EOS and his own coaching he was getting from Gina Wickman and then has developed something very, I think, niched to the law firm marketplace, and so you all are in one sense or maybe exactly like you are EOS implementers specifically for small and large law firms across the country.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's definitely similar. We are fortunate enough to have been working with Gino for over a decade. Michael and John originally wrote the book just based on their experience not only with EOS but building a personal injury law firm at that size and scale. They weren't part of the mastermind community. They didn't go to conferences. They were truly in their own world for 15, 20 years doing it on their own, and once they started going to conferences and realized that there was a community out there that they could be a part of, michael had the idea and inspiration to write a book about their journey with the firm. A big part of that journey is EOS and Gina Wickman, who's been our business coach for over a decade, and he's a big part of the story. When Michael decided to hire a business coach himself, when he realized that he couldn't do it all on his own, when he realized that he needed an integrator, that was John is John to this day.
Speaker 2:It was really interesting to see how EOS was weaved throughout the book of fireproof.
Speaker 2:But we also have the law firm experience and have taken it kind of to the next level and added on that layer of personal experience.
Speaker 2:I think the best thing about fireproof and why I love working for fireproof is that we have done it ourselves and we have the team members and the experts and the subject matter experts in each niche area of a law firm that are resources for the coaching business. So when you sign up with fireproof, you're not only getting the EOS foundational knowledge that we've gained from being an EOS driven business, but you're also getting marketing tactics from a chief marketing officer with millions of dollars a year to spend in our market and a journey of becoming a market dominator in the state of Michigan. So I think it combines both aspects and it's a little bit different than EOS and that you get those resources and we are a little bit more niche and more specialized. But we do have that foundation and we're grateful to EOS and Gino and their team for supporting us and really being that basis that made the firm possible in the first place.
Speaker 1:So for anyone who's listening, who's not familiar with the firm, the Mike Morse law firm, give us briefly sort of a picture of the size and scope of the firm as we're recording this near the end of 2023. Like, what does it look like today? People under roof. Mike often talks about revenue numbers and I'm always impressed he's got every figure right at his fingertips. I think mainly because of John, because John was a blessing to Mike to come in and I described John as a quant.
Speaker 2:Yes definitely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so Mike Moore's law firm. We are the largest personal injury law firm in the Midwest. We do what we will do over $200 million in settlements, resolutions, verdicts this year. We are on track to double in five years. That is the goal and we have made every decision with the firm with intention. That's probably been one of John's biggest gifts to Michael is being able to sit down at the beginning of the year in January and say, okay, what do we want this year? Where do we want to go? And let me turn on the dials to get there. So we were being intentional and plateauing for a little bit because we had everything dialed in and we were running on all cylinders and Michael wanted that vision. When he felt inspired to grow, john easily turned it up Well, not so easily, but simply turned it up and we've been working hard to double in five years ever since and we're on pace to do it.
Speaker 2:We have, I think we have almost 220 team members at the firm, many of them attorneys and legal production seats, but we also do, uniquely, invest in non legal production seats that are, I think, part of our secret sauce, of our firm and not as common in larger firms, at least that I see they try to keep their teams like accounting small or their marketing team small, but Michael is always willing to invest in resources that he knows can help the firm overall. Even if he's not seeing that exact ROI on and measurable and their contributions, he's able to look at their productivity and the benefits that they give to the other teams in that support aspect, which I really admire. And then just personally for me, I've worked at the firm since I was 17. I've done pretty much every job you can do, worked in every department. I had no idea that it would end up helping me in this job At the time. I just enjoyed it. I enjoyed the team. Michael and John were always very welcoming to me and let me in on a lot of the backstage things simply because I was interested and wanted to invest in my development and mentorship. So I'm really lucky to have had that gift so early on.
Speaker 2:But I just enjoyed the work. I would do whatever was necessary, even you know, manual data entry. I just wanted to be a part of that professional side of things and I have really enjoyed working with them and the team ever since. I joke with people sometimes that I was born to work. A lot of people you know. They loved high school. They loved college. Those were their glory days. I've always just been single minded towards. I want to be a working professional. I really value independence, and I've had a job since I was 12. I love making my own money, and so it was just a natural fit for me to kind of be at the firm every chance I could get.
Speaker 1:You know it's incredible $200 million in verdict and settlements in a state where from the outside you look at Michigan's tort laws and stuff and you've got some we would say weird things that would make it so challenging, I think. And yet you've done it. And it's really amazing because I'm sure not all the cases are in Michigan but most probably are right and the marketing is directed, I think, to Michigan. Correct, and I would say to anyone who's listening this year, if you ever get a chance to see Mike Michael Moore speak or Mike and John tag team on a talk, I mean they show you everything which is really neat, and I think that has rolled over into now as they have developed the various sort of fireproof programs.
Speaker 1:So so again, several years ago Michael wrote a book called Fireproof about the story which begins with the law firm burning down and then a part of the story is, you know, a referral source, drying up overnight or quitting overnight, and the journey that Michael has made in finding John and then having John do what he does really well, which is numbers and systems, as far as I can tell, like from the outside. So talk to us a little bit about. I'm curious because I hear more and more about the fireproof program, like do you have different levels, who's it for? And then for lawyers who join at some level of the program, like what is, what does a year look like?
Speaker 2:Yeah for sure. So we, as of the past couple of months, have really taken a hard look as a team on what is impacting the firms that we work with that really get the most out of the program, and so we have one single offering. Currently it is the accountability coaching program and what we've done is really taken the hands on one coaching and made it more cost effective for law firms. So we have created a lot of resources that are included in the accountability coaching program, for example, a video series of Mike and John explaining every question that they could possibly think that firms would have to ask them in lessons and videos and resources on how to operate, grow a law firm, and it's actually them teaching, which is definitely a great resource for questions that every law firm seems to have out there. There's a lot of commonalities, but the accountability coaching program is really about having me or another one of our coaches in your meetings and running your weekly briefings. So, once a week, 90 minutes, similar to an EOS level 10, with your leadership team in those meetings answering those questions. When you get to what we call the fire section, the issue section, when you have an issue that we have experience in, we can provide resources and historical experience from solutions that we've tried in our own firm and give you that leg up. Our goal, with every fireproof client, is to accelerate your growth. We can't do the work for you, we can't make the decisions for you, but our goal is to shorten that time for you to be working in your highest, best use and achieving your goals and what you want out of your business.
Speaker 2:As a business owner, leadership team member, and we, with the accountability coaching program, will be in your weeklies. We'll have a quarterly, we'll have an annual and then it will be a duo coaching. So platform, do a coaching program, so it will be a senior level business coach, someone like myself or a colleague, or and then I. You will be paired up as well with an accountability coach, so that's really the facilitator of those weekly meetings. And then a senior level business coach will come in for your quarterlies, your annuals as well as do a 30 minute check in once a month with your visionary and or integrator. And we found that effective because we will come in with the senior level business coach criteria.
Speaker 2:To be one is to have that intrinsic Mike Moore's law firm knowledge.
Speaker 2:So it's someone who has seen the firm grow and develop and who knows the stories and the resources and the results from what we've tried and what's worked and what's not. Coming in for your high level strategy meetings and talking to the owners and the integrators of the firm and having a touch point on what do they want and then in terms of making that happen and holding you accountable, that's where our accountability coaches really shine. What we look for an accountability coaches just organizational skills and you know and a willingness to learn and grow and hold people accountable. So that's where they really shine. So it's kind of allowed us to separate the strategy meetings with the true accountability meetings and it's been working really well because you know you set goals at the beginning of the year and then three months later it's easy to get lost in the chaos of running a day to day law firm. So having someone truly one on one with your team once a week has been a game changer for a lot of our clients.
Speaker 1:Yes, look, I know, like most law firms in America are not running weekly 90 minute leadership meetings, let alone quarterly. Is let alone? You know, we do today, offsite, for the annual which you'd be familiar with, and when firms are seeking you out and coming into the fireproof world, how much of that sort of internal, like even having leadership team, having meeting structure, do they need? I mean, most firms come in like well, I've never heard of a leadership team and I meetings.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I tell firms every day that they're not at the point to become a fireproof client and to read the book, and if there's any questions we can answer. Resources we can provide. You know we're happy to do so. But come back when you've grown and you're ready to be a part of this and accelerate. There is kind of that threshold where fireproof is not going to be a benefit of you and we're not going to sell you something that's not going to benefit you.
Speaker 2:So we have, you know, criteria, but it obviously differs with every firm. But if they don't have a leadership team and they're at 101520 employees, they probably have a leadership team. They probably just don't call it a leadership team. They are probably relying on certain people. They have people they trust. Go to people to delegate. They're probably doing it without realizing it.
Speaker 2:So our job in those scenarios is to just help them uncover and identify who those players are and then to get them to the point where they feel even more comfortable delegating more and more so they can continue to elevate and go towards the role that they're going to take, towards the role that they want to end up in. So we have, you know, I would say, our smallest firm in fireproofs around 10 employees, but we have up to 150 employees, so we really have all over the map. But I would say you're so low, or you're just starting, or you're a smaller firm. It's not the right program for you and I'm not going to waste your time or money. But you know, read the book. Everyone starts somewhere and we'll be happy to have you once you're ready.
Speaker 4:Guys this is Ben, If you like what you've been hearing on this podcast not just the marketing and practice building strategies, but the philosophy of the art of living your best life parts. You should know that my son, Brian, and I have built a tribe of like minded lawyers where living lives of their own design and creating tremendous value for the world within the structure of a law practice. We invite you to join us at the only membership organization for entrepreneurial lawyers that is run by two full time practicing attorneys. Check us out at greatlabelmarketingcom.
Speaker 1:Is there sort of a revenue threshold below which you're like you probably go read the book and get better at these five things and then come back?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say in terms of revenue and this is the thing with law firms fees or settlements Are you talking? Because in Mike Moore's law firm we talk settlements but I know everyone else talks fees. So I'm going to say, in terms of fees, 2 million would probably be the threshold, 1.5, almost 2 million I could be talked into, but I really want to see that you are cash positive and you have a reoccurring revenue cycle that is being built.
Speaker 1:And is it's five proof for personal injury lawyers and contingent fee lawyers or?
Speaker 2:Majority. Yes, we have worked with some criminal defense firms, immigration firms, divorce attorneys, because business principles in law firms do translate, but I would say the majority of our clients are personal injury, slash contingent fee. Maybe they do workers comp, but similar practice areas.
Speaker 1:For firms that come in and spend the first year with you. What do you think some of the biggest levers are for them? Like what do they change, either in terms of structure or just operations? That you think or you have seen, like this is a big mover, like for the owners.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have. I could talk about this for hours. So the number one I mean it's a classic but data. A lot of firms come to us and say I'm embarrassed to say this I don't know how much money I made last year. I don't know how many cases that we have in our firm. I don't know, you know who's handling what. I have no idea what's going on in my own firm and we're lucky with case management systems. Nowadays, reporting has been made easier and easier, but a lot of people aren't taking advantage of or don't know what's available on the data reporting side.
Speaker 2:So having a scorecard we call it Jumbotron to look at every single week with your leadership team and actually have that transparency and overview of what's happening within your firm, not only is it kind of a calming, reassuring, ok, like things are happening and I'm not in the dark anymore, but it also helps you issue spot earlier and make strategic actions instead of well, I think we have this problem, let me just see if this solves it, but you don't even know if you had a problem in the first place. So data would be probably my number one. Number two is really that accountability and the pushing to resolve issues. So I'll have a 90 minute meeting for the first time with a firm and we've maybe solved two or three issues gone through the process, talked about their goals, talked about where they've measured against their goals for the week, and you know, I get feedback like we've never had this sufficient of a meeting. We've never actually solved anything, we just talk in circles. And I think too, with lawyers I mean, you're trained to analyze and be detail oriented and look at so many different facets of an issue but that can lead to a bunch of lawyers getting in a room together and never actually solving the issue or agreeing on a solution. So the solution, the execution, the making a to-do list and actually checking off the boxes. People say they've gotten more done once they start working with fireproof than they realized was possible with the capacity of their law firm.
Speaker 2:I'll also say that I think training new leadership team members with fireproof is a game changer for firms. So I'll give you an example. One of my clients hired an integrator and they were at that point where they wanted to make the investment To hire a full-time integrator, chief operating officer, at their firm. I interviewed the integrator John Naakazel interviewed their integrator, vetted him and we worked with him on data. He got to shadow John Naakazel for a day and everything that he does. He got to soak up all of our material and anytime he has a question about what a term means or what we found works at Mike Moore's law firm, we're right there with him.
Speaker 2:So if you're looking to elevate leaders in your firm, they can learn from some of the best that we have at Mike Moore's law firm, and I think that's truly a game changer, because I mean to have your integrator shadowing John Naakazel, who is where you want to end up, where you want your integrator to end up, is just truly, I mean, a gift and privilege. I think for these people who are coming in with limited experience, this integrator had no law firm experience, or even you know leaders in your firm that you're elevating but haven't served in that role. I think you're just getting such bang for your buck in terms of leadership, training and elevating the professionals within your firm.
Speaker 1:It's one of the things law firms struggle with because, look, you're exactly right, like we're all lawyers, we went to law school because we're great issue spotters. We're not great creators. Usually we don't see a ton of opportunity usually. And then you know, one of the things we talk about a lot in our groups is you've got someone who's really good at something, a good lawyer, and you know, elevating them into a leadership position sometimes is putting you know a square peg into a round hole, like they just weren't born to do that. And then you just talked about like hiring, like from the outside, from the non-legal space, and integrator that's. That's interesting and, again, something most law firms in America never, ever think about, right, they're just happy trying to be lawyers. And so this kind of gets around to the people question, because one of the things that we experienced as we got into EOS we've been running about four and a half years now is, you know, a lot of people who were here when we started that didn't survive the cut because they weren't built for this.
Speaker 1:You know the beginning I saw it as rigidity. I couldn't imagine being on 90-minute meeting a week, but actually it saves so much time and moves you forward so fast. So do you see that as well as you're coaching up these teams and they remain a client? You know, for a year, two years, we found the first 18 months of EOS like that was just really hard. There were so many issues. Lists was so big. Once you have someone coaching you through that and exposing all your flaws, even though you think you're pretty good at what you do. But what have you seen? I'm curious about people retention on these law firms who are now being introduced to like a really different level of running a law firm, which is what you're teaching.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's actually such an interesting question and I just talked about retention at the Fireproof Summit because it's a big issue in law firms and in the professional services industries across the board right now. But I would say at Mike Morse law firm, we have unbelievable retention. We had something like 50 employees over 10 years anniversary this year and we've had people stay who are killing it and it's a testament to the proof is in the pudding of this process. It does actually work when you hire, train and retain and live up to your core values and also have people be held accountable to the quality of work.
Speaker 2:I've seen it time and again with firms where I come in and they talk about rock star case manager or an attorney who is underperforming this year, but it's because of this and this and they're really right to be amazing next year. And then somehow it turns out that once they look at the data and they start holding them accountable and they start having those conversations about core values, you can lose people, and people you've worked with for years are people that you really had faith in, and I think that it's definitely can be overwhelming at first. When you look at you know this is how we've done it. This is where we want to go, but the people who have gotten you to where you are may not be the people that are going to get you to where you want to go, and coming to terms with that is a difficult process, but it's so exactly.
Speaker 2:It's okay and it's what's best for you and it's what's best for them. If they don't want to be a part of your firm with the core values that you've said, they're going to be unhappy just like you are, you know the longer you put it off. So it's a challenging dynamic, but it's. It's always interesting too when they're hesitant to do it and then three months later they're like I can't believe it took me so long. It's so much better now without that person.
Speaker 1:That's the. That's the problem with so many lawyers and law firms. Meanwhile, your team is going. What took you so long to figure this out, you dummy?
Speaker 2:Yep, yep, they know and they're like, oh, thank goodness, like it's been time. And you're like, really. So one thing I too I love doing for law firms is on site staff assessments. So I'll go into a law firm and have them identify you know five or six key stakeholders and just ask them questions, sit there and interview them about what's working and what's not working in the firm. And then I will do it just anonymously, just generic feedback to the leadership team and say this is what your people are saying. And always there are surprises, there are shocks that come out of that are like oh, that's not my read on the situation at all. And I think that's some of the best work I do when I just actually ask the staff what's going on, because oftentimes the leaders are in the dark on so much unintentionally.
Speaker 1:So your assessment of team members stakeholders is that part in parcel of the fireproof program, the one offering that you have?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it usually is. I will do it one off for firms if they want. But it's something that I really enjoy doing and prioritize because I think it's super important. A lot of times when I'll have like a quarterly or an annual, I'll come in a day early and do a staff assessment and then do the quarterly the next day. That's worked out very well with the clients, but it's case by case, but it is something that we try to do with every firm that wants it and most do.
Speaker 1:And then are you leading a two day offsite Annual.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one or two days. It depends on the size of the firm and the nature of the relationship. It's one to two days and sometimes it'll be one and a half. Also, with travel logistics it depends.
Speaker 1:But we make sure that you've gotten all of your annual goals documented and everything's done and completed for the year either way you want to talk about pricing and investment and anything else that we've left out, because you mentioned some sort of a summit, is that all of the participants get together one to year, or maybe more than once a year, to gather and provide.
Speaker 2:So, overall, with the accountability coaching membership, you get that one-on-one coaching that I discussed, as well as access to the masterclass, which is that video series that I covered. We do have two summits a year that are members only one in Phoenix in November and one in April springtime-ish in Detroit that are so much fun and probably my two favorite weeks of the year, our favorite few days. And we have subject matter expert calls. So our team members, our chief marketing officer, our CFO, whoever it is from the Mike Moore slough firm that we think has a good topic that will translate to our clients, will have them lead a call or you can contact them through one of us. But we have our community calls. We call them once every other week with a different topic taught by one of those experts and then we do record them. So you have a library of those as well. You get access to call us up whenever and ask a situational question, ask for resource, ask, talk through a situation, say what'd you guys do at the Mike Moore slough firm when you ran into this? And the great thing about the coaches is we weren't there for every single story, but we know the person who was and we can connect you and we've heard a lot of it. So we're kind of the intermediaries between you and the answer that someone else has lived.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, that's what you get, as well as the one-on-one coaching, and that is the accountability coaching program. It's $10,000 for your first month and then $5,000 a month for each subsequent month and you can cancel it anytime. So no contracts. It is completely month to month payment. If you try it and you're not finding value, we'll let you out. We're running a law firm as well and we're not going to book you into anything long-term. That's not valuable. We want you to get a lot out of this. Mike and John are doing this as a passion project, so we're here to help and that's what we're all about.
Speaker 1:That's what's so neat about those two is that they really don't need to do this, and yet every time I've seen them speaking, I understand from the fireproof program is like hey, our doors are open, our forms are open, our methodologies are open, which is a really cool place to be, because I imagine you probably even have competitors in the personal injury space and, as I understand, you're not even saying no to that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's been interesting. Even Mike and John, when they initially set this out, they had an intentional conversation about like, well, how much do we share in terms of numbers, data, strategies, everything. They were both just like if we're going to do this, we're going to be ourselves and we're going to tell people anything they want to know, because it's not in our nature to play the game of giving pieces of information and not being fully honest. It's not interesting to them and it's not what they're passionate about. So they both are completely honest, transparent. They're doing this because they genuinely enjoy it and it's always funny to me because John, at the end of every presentation he shares his personal cell phone number and that is his actual cell phone number, not his work phone number, nothing and in front of hundreds of people and says call me. And it just it cracks me up because there's no other way he could do it and pull it off.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but this is really what moves the world. What especially the legal profession needs is more people who see the world as big and abundant and just a growing opportunity for all of us to live a joy filled life. And we happen to be lawyers and able to make money and like what we're doing, versus those who are like no, if I share with you, that's less for me, which I just think is so. It's against my nature as well. Well, look, this has been awesome. If people want to talk to I don't know you or someone else on the fireproof team to talk more about the program although you've told you've done a great job today of explaining the program when should they go? And obviously they first should go read the book, because the book's really good, it's very interesting, it's on my bedstand. Excuse me, but where else should they go Just to see? Like, here we are end of 2023. Like, would this be good for me for 2024 or beyond?
Speaker 2:Yeah, our website is fireproofperformancecom. You can email me, kate K-A-T-E at fireproofperformancecom. You can call me 248-469-0015 and someone on our team if not me personally, will respond, and we're always looking to talk to interesting people and attorneys who want to grow. There's plenty of room in the industry, like you said, and lots of revolutionizing and changing happening, so we're always looking to talk to interesting people, even if it doesn't work out. So feel free to contact.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the way I feel. I'm interested in talking to interesting people who actually go do something. They just aren't wasting my time. But if you have a question, come here, we'll help you. You guys are obviously doing a great job. Again, for those who are listening to this, you ever get a chance to go to a national trial or event or some of these other events and you see Michael or John on the speaker list.
Speaker 1:I get there because most of us aren't in rooms playing at $200 million a year and yet I think it's important to be in those rooms every once in a while just to see how those at the very top of the game are thinking. First of all, are thinking about life and business and the practice, and then, all right, what are you guys doing? Like, what are you doing? That's different, and the thing I want people to hear and to know is that, yes, we're talking about Mike Morris and a $200 million a year law firm. They didn't start there. No, didn't start there at all, and it's been built and we like to say if somebody else can do it, that means it's absolutely possible and it's not done with magic or anything else. It's hard work in getting the right people on the team, I think, and then being very disciplined about running a business.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and nothing gives us more joy than helping people achieve what they want and using it and using our resources to get them there faster. This is just a quick story, but yesterday I called my dad and I said, dad, you'll never believe this client put together this data report based on yours and it looks so good and it's going to be so helpful for their firm. And he's like, oh, I need to see it, like I'm going to need to drop everything and go see this data report because it's so fun for us to know that we're making a difference and that the work that we've done is being replicated for other firms out there.
Speaker 1:Well, very good. Well, thanks for sharing all that with us. Say hi to your dad and to Mike when you see him. Where do you sit? Are you in Michigan yourself?
Speaker 2:I am in Michigan, yep, but I'm on the road a lot at those conferences, yeah.
Speaker 1:And running quarterly meetings and annual retreats. Yeah, that too, all right. Thanks so much. It was wonderful to talk to you today.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. Have a good one.
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