Meet Gary Leland, the brains behind the BitBlockBoom conference. Step into Gary's shoes as he recounts his own revelation in the Bitcoin realm, where initial skepticism morphed into a profound realization of Bitcoin's indispensable role in the digital ecosystem. We unravel Bitcoin's metaphorical mantle as 'digital gold,' dive into its significance beyond mere commodity, and ponder the ripple effects Bitcoin ETFs may cast upon the shores of e-commerce. Our narrative sails through the tempestuous seas of Bitcoin's market cycles, decoding the cryptic timing for investment amid volatile tides.
Follow Blocktime on Twitter: https://twitter.com/BlocktimebyRiot
Follow Blocktime on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@RiotPlatforms/podcasts
Meet Gary Leland, the brains behind the BitBlockBoom conference. Step into Gary's shoes as he recounts his own revelation in the Bitcoin realm, where initial skepticism morphed into a profound realization of Bitcoin's indispensable role in the digital ecosystem. We unravel Bitcoin's metaphorical mantle as 'digital gold,' dive into its significance beyond mere commodity, and ponder the ripple effects Bitcoin ETFs may cast upon the shores of e-commerce. Our narrative sails through the tempestuous seas of Bitcoin's market cycles, decoding the cryptic timing for investment amid volatile tides.
Follow Blocktime on Twitter: https://twitter.com/BlocktimebyRiot
Follow Blocktime on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@RiotPlatforms/podcasts
Welcome to Block Time produced by Riot, a podcast where we take a deep dive into topics around Bitcoin, bitcoin mining and energy grids. Today we've got an OGBitcoiner OG podcaster, gary Leland, organizer of the BitBlockBoom conference, that is coming up, and so we'll talk about that. Welcome, gary, to the show.
Speaker 2:Hey, nice to be on the show, nice to see you. Haven't seen you since I was down there for the Riot tour some time ago. I'm sure a lot has happened since I was down there, since it was just a big hole in the ground in an empty building.
Speaker 1:Yeah, A lot has happened and now we're building that second site out in Corsica, Canada. That's yep, very exciting to see that. So we wanted to have you on. I mean, first of all, because we go back quite a while to the first BitBlockBoom conference. That was in Dallas, I believe, in 2019? 18. 2018. Now I'm really feeling old.
Speaker 2:Okay, so six years ago, yes, this is the second BitBlockBoom.
Speaker 1:Yes, and what prompted you to kind of start BitBlockBoom at the time?
Speaker 2:I guess a long story. Basically, I just wanted to meet more Bitcoiners, so I started the conference. I guess, if you really get down to it, I felt like that was the easiest way to get to talk to them. As you said earlier, before we were talking backstage. I've been in podcasting since the beginning and I always found the thing about podcasting was when I wanted to meet someone new and ask them questions, I could just ask them to be on my podcast and they'd come on and I could ask them all the information I needed and get private tutoring. So I guess BitBlockBoom was kind of like that I could bring down these people I wanted to talk to and meet that were Bitcoiners and I could have one-on-one time with them. It's kind of maybe a hard way to do that having a whole conference. That was what kind of did it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like when you ask a friend to have coffee, except you ask 300 people. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's the same thing. But you know that was a good event for being the first one we did, we didn't know what in the hell we were doing and it was a good event, I think it was a fantastic event Made a lot of friends that are still friends of this day, like yourself.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I like conferences. I like going to conferences. I don't really like necessarily. I'm not one of those guys sitting on the front road taking notes of the speakers. I like going and meeting people and networking with them and making connections and blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I think it's really interesting because Bitcoin does attract some folks who are from lots of different backgrounds and quite a few of them are rather accomplished right. They've succeeded at lots of things in life and their interest in Bitcoin is aligned with a certain kind of almost cultural ethos that develops for those who want to go beyond just buying on Coinbase or now just buying the ETF, and who are attracted to go to a Bitcoin conference. I always find some fascinating personalities in that audience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the thing about Bitcoin is it's such a wide mix of people, more so than podcasting. Podcasting of people who are kind of extroverted. You know they want to be on a show or something like that. We're podcasting Bitcoin to be anyone who is interested in self-sovereignty and money, and once you go down that rabbit hole, you know it opens you up to so much stuff that you could have someone who quit high school and someone who's got a doctorate in finance and they both can end up talking on a pretty even level about Bitcoin and no one's going oh, you know what you're talking about. You dropped out of high school and the guy goes ah, you're a schmuck, you got a doctor. I mean, they all get together and they all want the same goal and they have the same interest. It's probably kind of an interesting group of people how together they are and how quickly they merge, even though they have such totally different backgrounds and totally different concerns. Other than that one concern Bitcoin.
Speaker 1:It's interesting too. Every time I go to a Bitcoin conference and there's kind of a networking event where there's more than 20 people, it is so loud because there's so many animated conversations going on simultaneously. It's a cacophony.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure, it's for sure. The end of the talking never stops. You know, one thing also I've noticed from doing this conference. This is the seventh year. You know we have a lot of open bars at our parties but no one's really getting drunk because they want to pay attention to the conversation they're having. So they may have a drink, but I've never in seven years had to roll someone out or take someone's keys or, you know, worry about them getting home because they just don't want to get drunk. They just continue the conversation and they know they can't. So, yeah, it's a different crowd than most conferences to boot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely so. What have you learned about conferences from putting on BitBlock Boom for so many years? How has it evolved?
Speaker 2:I don't know. That's a good question. I needed to be prepared for that one.
Speaker 1:That's all right. What about the location? Because I know that has evolved.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes. So what we did, as you know, the first four were in Dallas, which were good, because I live close to Dallas, and we went to Austin for the last two. Now we're coming back to Dallas. You know, austin, wow, like Austin, it's just too damn high, it's too expensive there, you know. I mean I was able to lower the price of the hotels by 35%. I was able to lower the price of the tickets. I mean, everything's cheaper in Dallas, and Dallas is a great place to come in its own. It's just Austin is so expensive to do a conference in.
Speaker 2:So not only did we move it back to Dallas, which was cheaper for us and the attendees, it's close to my house, you know. It's 30 minutes away instead of three and a half hours. So if I have to do something with the conference, I don't have to drive all the way to Austin. So that's a big plus too. So Dallas is a good thing, and we've moved it to April this year, you know, to try to get closer to the halving, and we're going to start doing it in April every year afterwards from now on, we aren't at the halving. I think a week ago I calculated that if the hash rate dropped to nine minutes, it would block time, then we would. It would happen during bit block boom. But it hasn't dropped to nine minutes yet, so I guess that's not going to happen.
Speaker 1:Yes, so that would mean that we need to add more hash rate to make time go by faster? Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:That's it.
Speaker 2:So if you all could just bring a bunch of machines, online, yeah, stages, and when in two weeks, when it goes up, add the next batch on there. We got to keep it at nine minutes, but, roger, that I think it was close as I could get to the halving. But the main thing was there were so many conferences in the fall. Now up here, oh my gosh, if you start with July 1st, you know Bitcoin magazine's conference there's literally almost a conference every weekend and I like going to conferences and I was getting sick of going to conferences so I had to pull out of August and come to spring, because there really are hardly any conferences in the spring. So put us as one of the first conferences of the year and in April. So hopefully people have gone. Hi, I'm in a conference in four months. I need to get over there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I definitely feel the plethora, the abundance of Bitcoin conferences we have. I think we at this point we might have more conferences than podcasts, but the thing is definitely more than podcast conferences.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what I like about Dallas as well is that it has a very large airport. That's a hub for airlines, and so I remember the first bit, block boom I went to. I would talk with people and it would be a coin flip as to whether they were from Texas or not. So many people flew in from South America, from Asia, from all over the world, because Dallas is just a destination that you can easily get a plane ticket for and you don't have to worry about transferring and connecting and all of this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was. Another positive about moving to Dallas is you can catch the right flight to Dallas from almost anywhere in the world. To be honest with you, where Austin, you can catch the right flight, but it's not as easy and it costs more money. So that was another money saving thing there. But you know that first year, pierre, I think we actually had more people from out of the US than we had from Dallas, at least ways.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, and Dallas was a walk away. That was amazing. So how are ticket sales going for this year?
Speaker 2:Ticket sales are going good. You know, the thing is with this year's event, I normally have a whole year to sell tickets. This year we have six months to sell tickets, if it's even six months yeah, six months to sell tickets. So we got half the time period to sell tickets. So it's a lot more work this year selling tickets than it is because we've sold out. Last year was gosh. We sold out the two years previous. So last year was the first year we didn't sell out.
Speaker 2:But you saw that venue. I could have put 3,000 people in that venue if I wanted to. So there's no way I could possibly sell it out. I wasn't wanting to. I'm just saying I could have put it to the ton of people I think we'll sell out this year because we did the last two times we were at this venue. I think we sold out, so we should sell out. People really like this venue. This was a great venue.
Speaker 2:So a funny story I saw Safedine last year in Miami and we just happened to be walking by each other and we stopped and talked and I just said to him I said hey, I want to thank you for coming to BitBot Boom back in 2018. That was the first one, I didn't really know what I was doing, but you came and came to the event and I really appreciated that and he goes well. Gosh, that was my first book signing. I wanted to tell you for, thank you, let me come sign the book at your event. And I was like, oh, I didn't think about it, I didn't know. It was your first thing too. So we've had some good names at BitBot Boom.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and to our audience here for the Block Time listeners, I'd emphasize that, as Gary points out, bitcoin history does get made at BitBot Boom and the tickets will sell out, so make sure that you pause the podcast, go buy your tickets and then hit the play button again.
Speaker 2:Oh, and use the code BBB1. That's three Bs for BitBot, boom and one, and get yourself an extra discount there. So make sure you do that Excellent. Thank you, gary, and Pierre is going to be there this year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm kind of looking forward to it and we, and you know I had someone contact me the other day and they said they were coming to Dallas the Monday of the conference for the eclipse. There's like a total eclipse of the sun that comes through Dallas and they were coming for the eclipse. So they said they're buying tickets because they figure while they're in Dallas they might as well come to the eclipse. So I'm telling people, if you're coming to Dallas for the conference, you may want to come a day or two early and see the eclipse.
Speaker 1:That is fascinating. I might have to do that as well. I love that stuff and you know we just need to remind folks don't stare directly at the sun, please.
Speaker 2:You know, the only time I've seen a total eclipse. I was like 10 years old in South Carolina and we had big tubs of water and our parents got us and we would look at the reflection of the sun in the water. You know, in the tub, you know, because we were too bored to afford smoke glass.
Speaker 1:So that's what's good, All right. Well, I'm glad we covered astronomy on today's podcast. I was worried we wouldn't get to.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm going to make sure we got that in there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks, gary. Yeah, so yeah, come a couple of days early to Dallas and enjoy the Dallas lifestyle and the eclipse and then the, the conference and the having, so that'll be a lot of fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I do, and I appreciate you having us on the show to talk about Bitblog Boom for sure. I want to tell people if they ever get a chance to come see this course of canop plant you guys have, they need to come. You just can't realize how big this thing is. I mean, you hear it's the biggest in the world, but until you see it, you see what's going on there, I don't think you realize how big the biggest in the world is. I mean, you've already got the biggest in the US. I think now we're going for the biggest the water holding pond. You can put sailboats in there and sail around. This is a big place.
Speaker 1:I completely agree. I think the sailboats would be fantastic and I'm a sailor myself, so I'd be happy to take a little dingy out there If I if I get permission from David, I guess.
Speaker 2:I get some hobby cats to put out down the shore and people can go sailing during their break.
Speaker 1:There we go. That way people won't complain about our water usage if we have our own lake. Yeah for sure. There you go, yeah you're doing something else to complain about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you guys still get, you guys getting complaints down there.
Speaker 1:I mean from one person. So it's not. You know, there's always going to be somebody who has, you know, thoughts about what other people are doing. So that that is part of building, and I agree that, while Gabe's videos and pictures are fantastic, nothing does justice to the size of the site other than actually going there and driving around, and I agree that you know we want to have more people out there. We're also, though, 100 percent focused on building it so that we can get as much hash rate online as possible in 2024. So that'll be exciting to see in the monthly updates.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm curious. I need to go online. I'm curious to see how much has happened since I was down there, because I said, really, for the most part is a big hole in the ground and an empty building Lots lots of stuff going on. You tell lots of foundation stuff, plumbing stuff.
Speaker 1:Yes, so on kind of building A1, you know they've they've put down the foundation, now they've put up the walls, or you know they started putting up the walls and so we're going to see that develop very quickly over the coming weeks and months. So, yeah, I agree that it is a very exciting industrial scale side site for one gigawatt you know getting off of that for a second.
Speaker 2:You were in Bitcoin when I first got in Bitcoin. I mean, you were already in Bitcoin. When did you get into Bitcoin? Yeah, great question.
Speaker 1:So I got curious about it when I read about it in 2011. But I said, this was also when I started my mining journey, which was that I downloaded the Bitcoin software and I looked for a button to press to mine Bitcoin, and I couldn't find it, and I closed the software, and then I forgot about it for a couple of years. So that was my first near miss of mining some early coins, and then I came back to it in 2013 when I started hanging out with Michael Goldstein, aka Bitstein, down in Austin. So I really really got into it in 2013. And you know, at the time, though, I was a Broke College student at UT Austin, and so I was accumulating student loan debt, not Bitcoin, but I was a student loan debt student, but I was. I really wanted to learn about it, because it hit that intersection between accounting, which was what I was studying in college, and computers, which I was kind of just naturally curious about. And what about yourself, gary?
Speaker 2:2017. I had heard about it in 2013, I think, or 12. Someone tried to explain it to me, but they told me it was like online stocks and I said, well, I'm not interested at all, and so I just just didn't think about it again. And every time I see him to this day because I think Bitcoin was around $100 at that time I stop and say do you know how many millions of dollars you cost me with your stupid online stock shit? Excuse my language, but then you go. He always goes. Well, you were an old guy. I thought you would understand that better than trying to tell you what it really was. I said, well, thanks, I appreciate your explanation there.
Speaker 2:Then, in 2017, I was walking down the hallway at a conference I was speaking at about podcasting. I was speaking about podcasting and these people were talking about Bitcoin, and I got through half the conversation and I asked the guy who was doing all the talking. I said, hey, could you go over that again? I missed so much of it and we spent the entire rest of the day, from one o'clock to six o'clock, talking about Bitcoin, and the next day I bought Bitcoin, but you know he explained it as a Do you remember?
Speaker 1:Go ahead, yeah, what it was about that conversation that made it so much more compelling than the stocks metaphor.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, at the time or my background is I started my first, building my first e-commerce site in 95. And everybody said I was stupid. People wouldn't buy stuff on the internet.
Speaker 1:So I said I'd buy stuff.
Speaker 2:So I don't know why no one else would. So. By this time 2017, I had probably 30 e-commerce sites, so that e-commerce was a big interest to me. When I was walking down the hall and I ran into the conversation, he brought up the word that Bitcoin was the first protocol for money. It was the missing protocol for the internet, and when he said protocols and internet, that kind of like piqued my interest. I don't know if any of the other guys I don't think any of the other guys there they just walked away like I don't even know what he's talking about. I don't think they got into Bitcoin to this date. But that's what really appealed to me which a lot of people think that sounds stupid, but me and it's the fact that it was the internet protocol and I was making my living for the most part off building websites. So I said I need to find out about this if it's something for the internet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's something that gets under looked, because in the mainstream you have the stocks metaphor. You also hear people say it's digital gold, but there's a Jack Dorsey quote saying it's the native money of the internet. It's kind of, if you think about the internet as like a foreign country, like when we use dollars on the internet, we're kind of bringing our dollars from the fiat world into the digital world, Whereas Bitcoin is like that's what. That's what you ought to be using on the internet, not not dollars.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, my friend who is explaining it said it was the only protocol missing from the internet was one for money and, yeah, chance. And he brought up the scenario if you could have owned a piece of email, you know, and you know that all started making sense to me right away. Like I said, I found that real interesting.
Speaker 1:Do you have a view on how? Do you think that e-commerce has been adopting Bitcoin more slowly or faster than you expected?
Speaker 2:I think it's actually doing it pretty fast. I mean I wouldn't expect it to be overnight, since most people think so many people in those positions think it may be illegal. You know, in the big companies they aren't going to be putting something on there to take a chance and lose some big company going to jail. But I think now with the ETFs, people will start having a change of attitude. But I think I think Bitcoin is moving a lot faster than podcasting did.
Speaker 2:I can tell you right now, because I was in both of them from the get go, basically, and not so much as Bitcoin is podcasting, my gosh. I used to ask everywhere I went because I was in the podcasting, so big you know the podcast is, and it was years before anyone told me, yeah, they had heard of it, you know they have heard. And I think he said I know what it is. I said really, this guy said what is it? And he goes it's for fishing, it's a. You cast the pot out there.
Speaker 2:So it's growing. It's growing at a super fast rate, I believe, compared to podcasting, which nowadays every person in the world I think I did my first podcast in 2004, maybe. So what is it now, 20 years later. Every person in the world knows what a podcast. You'd have to be hard not to find a person who knows what. Everybody has a damn podcast, I mean, you know. So if you give to where we're at now with Bitcoin, I think over the next I think most people know what Bitcoin is already you know, and now it's the next level is hitting. I think we're getting ready to have a wave of stuff hitting with now that ETFs are here. People are going to start buying ETFs and they're going to start going. Why don't I just hold this myself? You know why am I paying these fees? But I think it's growing pretty fast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I thought that your comment about the ETF kind of providing some legitimacy or at least removing FUD around the legality of Bitcoin, that's really interesting because we think of the ETF as kind of a store of value improvement for Bitcoin in some ways with the financial system. But, as you point out, if it helps small, medium, large businesses start accepting Bitcoin as a medium of exchange, because of that halo effect, the reputational improvement it has from kind of having the Black Rock stamp on it and the SEC stamp on it, which I know they're not happy about, but that actually could accelerate the use of Bitcoin as a currency. Yeah, and also I think that's a good point.
Speaker 2:It's a good point. Yeah, and also with the ETF. Here, you know, you have people like us talking to someone two months ago or a month ago. They wanted to buy $100,000 worth of Bitcoin, but they didn't want to pull it out of their retirement funds, pay capital gains, take that loss and then buy Bitcoin. So they were waiting on the ETF because then they could move it over, you know, without paying those capital gains. So I think you can get a lot of people in there who are in that situation too. They want to get in Bitcoin and not that $100,000 is a pretty sizable start, you know, but they don't want to lose let's say 20%, you know, as soon as they pull it out or whatever, the tax penalty is for capital gains. So I think it's, all in all, a good thing.
Speaker 1:Yes, I mean at today's prices, $100,000 is 2.5 Bitcoin, which is 250 million cents. I mean you're a quarter of your way to being a SaaS billionaire with 100 grand, so that's a good chunk of change, it is a good chunk of change.
Speaker 2:That's a good chunk of SaaS. Yeah, I mean, as we know, everybody can't have one, even if every millionaire can't have one, so it's just a matter of time, but things are looking good to me. I mean, like I said, but after you go through enough bear markets, you really don't look at it with the same eyeballs anymore. Right, we were talking about that before stage. You know you kind of like, okay, it's down, what do you do?
Speaker 1:Yeah, One BTC equals one BTC yeah.
Speaker 2:It's just a matter of getting to that point. That you know, because I remember when I first bought out it was dropping, I was going oh. I made a mistake. Maybe I need to sell this. And I was calling people. I knew I was calling the guy who got me in it. And then the guy goes, hey, this stuff's dropping. And they go you're just going through your first bear market, calm down, it'll be all right. I was like, okay, okay, I'll stay calm. And they were right, it did yeah.
Speaker 1:I feel like it's been my experience. Every time I buy some Bitcoin, the price goes down afterwards. So it's just a. It's pretty brutal. I think that's a common thing.
Speaker 2:I think that's a common thing. There must be something about buying Bitcoin that a lot of us do it at the same time, because every time I buy it just about. I feel like that.
Speaker 1:We have that herd mentality. You know we're social animals. I'm down on my last bit.
Speaker 2:I'm down on my last bit coming up on the second to the last one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, two weeks ago. The other interesting thing, I think, is that when we look at the past year of Bitcoin's price action, if you remove the 20 days, the best 20 days, then the Bitcoin price did not go up at all, and so the games are really concentrated on particular windows where it's like, hey, if you're trading around and you're not in Bitcoin when it rips, then you're really you know, you're timing, the market is going to be extremely difficult, and so that's where it just makes a lot more sense to just stay invested.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, for sure, because Bitcoin does rip when it rips, it goes.
Speaker 2:I personally never sold any Bitcoin. I was going to show the other day and with the oh, I came with what Bitcoin did with Peter and I was telling him that he goes, what are you saving it for? And I was going, well, I don't know. It kind of caught me off guard, but I was kind of going why would I spend Bitcoin when I still have fiat to spend? I mean, right, and I would cash it in for fiat and just put it in the bank and then spend the fiat I have already. I mean, you know, I mean if I run out of fiat then I'm going to, I guess, cash it in, but until then I don't know why I would cash it in.
Speaker 1:And if I knew what I wanted to spend it on, I would go spend it. But the thing is that I don't. I don't know what I'm going to spend it on in 15 years, you know, or in 20 years, who knows. So I think that's the thing about savings. It's like it's a big question mark, right, and people sometimes are uncomfortable with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my wife is uncomfortable with the fact that we're almost 70. She goes we're going to die without ever spending any of this. I'm going well, what is it we're not doing that you wanted to do? I mean, is there something I'm missing a boat on? I mean, you know, our houses pay for, our cars are paid for, we do whatever we want. I said so what is it that we're missing out on by not cashing it in? Well, I don't want to just be saving it until we die. Well, if we need some money, we can cash it in. Just let me know.
Speaker 1:Okay, Gary, I'm going to pitch you on some things to spend your Bitcoin on.
Speaker 2:Okay, what about?
Speaker 1:going on a cruise.
Speaker 2:I like cruises, but I wouldn't. I would. I would still have to pay Fiat for that. I haven't enough Fiat to afford that. I like cruises. I've been on a lot of cruises. If you go like during school year, when all the kids are in school, they're fine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 2:Don't go into the summer.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, that makes a lot of sense. Let me know next time you go on a cruise. Maybe I'll join along with my wife and we'll leave our kids at home.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think and I thought about doing it once. Someone needs to get together a cruise, a Bitcoin cruise.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they have thematic cruises like that. That'd be fun.
Speaker 2:And you don't have to have the whole ship, just a package that a lot of Bitcoiners are using at the same time. You know you get 20 or 30 people just hanging out on this. I like cruises, you know, obviously. I like eating, you know you can look at the size of me and tell that, but yeah, I have a good time on cruises all the time. So I haven't been on one in a few years. But yeah, you know, and some people need to cash in their Bitcoin. I understand, I'm just lucky I'm not in that situation. You know, and who knows, next year I could be in that situation. You don't know what life brings.
Speaker 3:Gary, I had a quick question for you, not to back up too far, but you mentioned that your introduction into Bitcoin was through a podcasting conference. I wanted to ask do you believe that there is some sort of inherent overlap between podcasters and Bitcoin?
Speaker 2:No, I really don't, but there's a real similarity between them. I don't know if that'd be overlap or not. I used to feel when I went to early Bitcoin stuff, it was like going to early podcast stuff. I don't know if that makes any sense when I'm saying, but the way people were acting, you know, for instance, in early podcasting, oh my gosh, anywhere you went, people were trying to help you, like get your microphone hooked up right, or give you advice on how to do this, how to monetize your podcast, whatever. They just are pouring over backwards to help you. And that's the way Bitcoiners are. True, they'll tell you how to set up your wallet, they'll explain anything you need help for. So there is a lot of similarities between the two. So maybe the answer is yes, I'm not sure, but there is a lot of similarities between early Bitcoiners and early podcasters and Bitcoiners as we know it today, you know, which may disappear in five or 10 years when it becomes mainstream enough, like podcasting has.
Speaker 1:I've got my answer to Gabe's question, which is that they're both permissionless. You can just launch your own podcast. You can say what you can record whatever you want, upload the MP3. You don't have to get, you know, a stamp of approval from the government sensor or from the network executive, right Like you don't have to go to ABC and be like, hey, I'd like to pitch you on my show. It's like no, you just go on the Internet, do it.
Speaker 2:Well, that's true In that aspect they are permission, both permissionless, yeah, but early podcasting is a lot like Bitcoin or they're like I said, they all want to help each other. I used to be amazed people would send me edits, you know, for things like they spend all day editing my site. You know I get all these notes and I go. Thanks.
Speaker 1:I think that what also kind of broke podcasting into the mainstream was Joe Rogan and kind of the size of his following that he was able to develop over many years right, and when he started Joe Rogan experience it was like you know zero listeners and he built it up to millions and got onto you know a sweet Spotify deal. So I guess maybe that in Bitcoin what I feel like sometimes is that we haven't had a mainstreaming catalyst like that of somebody with a really big following.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or maybe that Netscape moment, you know, type thing, you know, and we could have that soon. I mean, on this bull run, you don't know what bull run that's going to happen on, because it's going to happen. It's like in Twitter. When Twitter first started, you know, I got on Twitter like I think it'd been open like six months or something, I think, very quickly, and I remember everybody going if only we could get someone like Brittany to use Twitter. Are they be naming these famous people? If they just would get a Twitter account, it would make all the difference. Twitter would become well known and popular and now everybody has a Twitter account. But that's what I mean. The people who were number one user accounts on Twitter's were all computer geeks, you know. They were all geeks until it went mainstream and that's kind of how Bitcoin was, you know, and now it's becoming less straight and it's less geeky people in there. They're more regular people getting into it.
Speaker 2:So it's following the same path same path that podcasting followed, that Twitter followed that, that net followed. It's following its path perfectly well and maybe at the fastest rate we've seen out of any of them.
Speaker 1:Well, I think one of the things is that you can buy some Bitcoin and see the value increase. You can't just buy a podcast and see the value increase.
Speaker 2:Yes, you can. You're creating, you know, and if anything about that, if you talk to someone into buying some Bitcoin and you go, look, look, you just need to buy some of this, buy $1,000 or $500 or $5,000, whatever you can afford, you need to buy some and you leave them alone and you go back to them six years later they go oh, I don't know, I haven't looked at that in six years. You know they just bought it because you asked them to and it's just sat there for the most part. So if you want to get someone into Bitcoin, you not only need to get them to buy it, you need to get them buying it on a regular basis so they keep looking at it and seeing how much it went up in value, because they don't. Every time I call someone who I talked into buying it in 2018 or 2017, they go oh my God, look how much it worked.
Speaker 2:Now you know they have no idea. They haven't ever gone back to it because it wasn't that big a part of their financial, their money, that they put into it. It was just okay, I got this extra, I can throw it into. I'll throw it in there, because you said to do it, gary, and then they forget about it. So not only do you feel this is kind of like an orange pill tip, I guess, or whatever, but not only do you have to get into, buy some Bitcoin and get some skin in the game, you got to get them buying on a regular basis, whether it's dollar cost averaging, which is the easiest way, but $10 a month, or whatever. But they need to do it on a regular basis, so they look at it more than once when they buy it and don't look at it until you call them again in five years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and perhaps that's also an area where the ETF will help is that if people are looking at their brokerage statements and comparing the gains on Bitcoin versus their other assets that they have at their brokerage, it will turn on some light bulbs perhaps.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, for sure, I would think that's a good way of looking at it. You know, it's just a matter of you know. I'm just curious to people who've been buying these ETFs right now are they going? Oh my gosh, I can't believe I bought that damn ETF. It's been going down ever since I bought it, you know, because it went up to like 49 when they were announced. Now it's 39, 40,000 or whatever. Are they all going? Oh, I can't believe this. And pulling out? And so BlackRock selling it to them, buy them back from them? Yeah, they probably are happy with it dropping. They get to buy it all back and make more money, you know, off the fees.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the trading volumes have been immense and I think there's a lot of people also that are selling GBTCs that has a high fee and buying the lower fee alternatives as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I guess that's due to the fact they couldn't convert that to an ETF.
Speaker 1:Oh, they did. I think it's due to the fact that Barry Silver is profit maximizing.
Speaker 2:Oh well, that would make sense too then.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, he knows that he's got a captive audience so he doesn't have to compete with.
Speaker 2:you know 20 basis points, but yeah, I think they only got like 25 or 30,000 Bitcoin left to sell, right? Am I wrong on that?
Speaker 1:I mean they've been pumping a lot out of there.
Speaker 2:So I mean they've got to be getting close.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'll take a look after this. It's a fascinating kind of development that people were not expecting.
Speaker 2:What's really surprising on that is or not surprising, but really shows you the strength of where Bitcoin is at right now. You know, not only have we had grayscale just selling tens of thousands of Bitcoins, we had SBF whatever it is. That exchange sell a bunch and we're still sitting at $40,000. I mean, you know, if you take how much Bitcoin has been sold since the ETFs come out, it's still sitting at $40,000. That's pretty damn cool. That's like a 20% drop from the high, which is nothing you know for Bitcoin.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that the other part is where we are in the cycle right, that we're still prehaving, and so if we look at these ETFs kind of over the longer term of the next few years and going into the next cycle, I think that's really where we'll see them adding fuel to the fire.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I agree with you completely, but I don't know, With the ETFs and the new rules being made for Bitcoin, I wouldn't be surprised if all the old models are just thrown out and it just goes berserk. I mean, you know, I mean there's a lot of stuff happening right now that was never anticipated this quickly. That happening to me at least ways the ETFs, one of them. I never thought we'd ever see those at the rate that was going, and it's fascinating.
Speaker 1:We saw El Salvador adopt Bitcoin before an ETF right, which is fascinating to see, and now we're seeing that perhaps Argentina is going in that same direction. Are you seeing more nation-state level adoption, or at least legal tender?
Speaker 2:And I think Max is saying Qatar is going to buy a million Bitcoin or something. That would be a heck of a purchase, but I've been hearing him say that for about a month now, so I don't know what to say on that. But yeah, Bitcoin is one of those things that you know. Of course, once you see it. You can't unsee it, so it just takes a long time to see, but the rabbit hole it takes you down and the things that change in your life whether you're a person, or things that change with a nation-state, once they get into Bitcoin, Bitcoin fixes everything and changes everything. So once you once you see it, it just changes everything. You don't want to piss money away because you want to buy Bitcoin.
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly, and I think that some of the anxieties have been about Wall Street capturing Bitcoin with these ETFs, and I actually think it's the opposite right you don't change Bitcoin, bitcoin changes you, and so we'll see the same happen with Wall Street.
Speaker 2:I have to agree with you. Yeah, you don't change Bitcoin. Bitcoin does change you. Yeah, bitcoin is a funny thing. It changes your whole perspective. It changes everything, whether you're, like I said, whether you're a person or a company or a state. You were saying how El Salvador, you know, got onto it, but I'm a Michael Saylor too. My gosh, that guy just was a buying machine. He has been a buying machine through the bear market, through the bull market. That guy's a buying machine. And now I'm not sure of the certain laws, but laws have been changed, accounting laws for companies that hold Bitcoin. So that should be a big positive for us to boot. Yeah, I just don't see any backwards motion coming in long term. I think it's all uphill.
Speaker 2:Like I said, I'm 70. You know what I got about 10, 15 years left before I got a drill cup in a home or a maid here taking care of me. But you know I've got my kids. They bought Bitcoin. Any young person should be. I always say you need to quit drinking your beer, quit smoking your cigarettes and spend every extra penny you have on Bitcoin until you get at least one. And if you don't get one, that's just the way it works. But you need to know that you bought every Bitcoin, every bit of Bitcoin you could afford to buy, and you weren't just pissing that money away. Because, believe me, when I was young, I liked to party and I liked to drink and I liked to smoke cigarettes. But boy, I think I would feel about the same way if I knew about Bitcoin. I would feel the same way because I ended up quitting all of them anyway, but I think Bitcoin would have caused me to quit and start moving it into Bitcoin sooner.
Speaker 1:Something else that I see younger folks waste their money on is motorcycles, cars. That's a very specific dig.
Speaker 2:Thank you Well you know, cars are a real loss. I mean, you know, I'm still driving my car after. Yeah, I give you a great story on cars. As a matter of fact, we sold a business gosh 10 years ago no, maybe six years ago, five years ago, six years ago and it was a very good sale for me.
Speaker 2:So Kathy wanted to buy brand new Lexus. That was her deal I'm going to get a Lexus, I'm going to get this brand new Lexus. So she spent like money on this Lexus and then I said, well, I'll just take your old car, you know, and sell my car, because her car was better than mine. It was an older, most well, it wasn't older than, but it was a Mercedes, and now it's older Mercedes. So she bought a Lexus. I bought it, I took her own Mercedes and I said, well, I'm going to take the amount of money you paid for your car and I'm going to buy Bitcoin with it. And she bought the car was like $50,000. So now when I go, that crunch goes, I still just love this car. I go yeah, this car, the only cost is like $250,000.
Speaker 1:I mean yeah so, and it's only going to get worse.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm going, you know so, like a friend of the friend who talked me into Bitcoin or told me about it and explained it, and I understood he was an early. He was an early adopter and you know, he had maybe he got an nickel or a dollar or whatever it was, and so he had a bunch of Bitcoin. He was mining on his laptop back then and he wanted to spend some Bitcoin because it was internet money and so he wanted to spend some Bitcoin. So he bought a pair of sunglasses and I don't know how many Bitcoin he paid for those sunglasses. He still has those sunglasses, he has them on the fire on his fireplace as a reminder, and he'll show up. He will say want to see a hundred thousand dollar pair of sunglasses, or whatever.
Speaker 2:Whatever the value is yeah, so that's his reminder not to spend his Bitcoin.
Speaker 1:That's right, and there's also a If you do spend fiat, that is an opportunity you missed to buy Bitcoin. So, in a sense, every time you spend any money, you're spending Bitcoin that you could have accumulated. So it's something really important for people to keep in mind day to day as they think about their financial future.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you really have to decide if you want to, on a lot of things, piss that money away or buy Bitcoin with it. And anyone who really understands it doesn't want to piss money away if they could buy Bitcoin.
Speaker 1:I think it's also an opportunity that only arises every couple of thousand years of hey, we're going to have a completely new monetary system and you have the opportunity to participate in it. You know that's arguably, it's unprecedented and arguably will never happen again. So it might just be a once in history opportunity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely won't happen in my lifetime again. Like I said, I only got 15 years left, so I won't see it again. But you're right, it's something we've never seen, we'll never see again, and you know. But the thing is you can talk about that till you're blue in the face, orange pulling people, and you're not telling them that because you're wanting to your price of your Bitcoin to go up. It's not like you're going oh man, if I could talk John and Dubai and a thousand worth of Bitcoin, I'm going to make some money today. But you're doing it because you really want to help them out, because you see the future and you want them to do to be able to take advantage of it.
Speaker 2:But it's amazing how many times in the past I've told someone about Bitcoin and I've spent a good bit of time with them because they asked. They got to ask. Now I don't bring it up unless they ask, but still, when they ask, sometimes I go into it too deep. So I'm trying, I try all the time to get better. But after you explain it to them and get them a good enough understanding, then they go. Well, how do you make money off me buying Bitcoin? And that's go. Well, I don't, I'm just trying to do your favor, dude. You asked me about it, so oh, it's not multi-level or something funny that I did as people have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's, it's. It's the most organic like grassroots thing that started as an open source. I mean, to me that was what was also very compelling about it as someone who was into Linux and kind of that, that world of hey, let's, let's write our own code, let's not be subject to the corporations. I think that, yeah, people think there's a Bitcoin CEO and that there's lots of people you know that somehow benefit. But even you know it would take a lot of buying to move the price. So I don't think I've ever orange-pilled someone sufficiently that the price went up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was just saying yeah, you would have to do. You'd have to like orange-pill Michael Saylor and he buys it all at one time instead of a two or three year period.
Speaker 1:Yes, maybe now the next target would be like Tim Cook. He's got a good amount of cash on his balance sheet.
Speaker 2:You know, yeah, that would be. You would think that they would want to put it into something like that, but I don't know. That's just me, because I'm the damn bull. That's all I want to put it into.
Speaker 2:You know, it's just a matter of you know. Another thing that has gotten me several times I found out the hard way is I would explain to someone. Someone would ask me. A good example is my little landlord. He said hey, gary, you're really into this Bitcoin, aren't you? I said yeah, yeah, and he goes, can you tell me about it? So I said, sure, I spent like 15 minutes giving him a really good brief analysis of what it was about, what it's about, and when we get through, he goes well, gary, do you have one on you? And I'm going. Oh my God, I really did a bad job, didn't I, if I like, explained it to him and he wanted to see one.
Speaker 1:I missed out some important information, while Gary.
Speaker 2:I missed out some information and I said, yeah, I'm always carrying around 40 grand with me, yeah, but yeah. But the fact is I missed. I missed that. I thought it is such a good job explaining, but I didn't explain that it wasn't one of those old coins that you see on Fox News in the background all the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that part is I messed it up.
Speaker 2:A lot of people think that's a Bitcoin.
Speaker 1:That's true, and you know. I remember there was a conversation about Bitcoin mining on an island and the guy from the island replies I don't think that there's any Bitcoin here. Okay, you're right, but you know, we just need electricity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, we just need electricity. But yeah, I've. You know Bitcoin pretty much has changed my life. You know I was telling someone that the other day not only has it financially helped my life out, but the amount of people I know. You know, now that I consider friends all over the world. I can pretty much go almost anywhere in the world. And I know somebody.
Speaker 2:I was in Portugal and I got off a train at Lisbon and someone had a sign up with my name on it and they spent the day with Kathy and I, given us a tour. But I can go about anywhere in the world. And when I was in Barcelona someone contacted me say can I have a coffee with you in the morning? So not only has it changed, like I said, financially and the amount of people I know, but actually it's changed, more than anything, my way of seeing things. You know, I really never knew what money was. I had some, I earned it, I spent it, but I never understood money. And I think that Bitcoin the rabbit hole Bitcoin takes you down, really opens your mind up and helps educate you on what money is. And then when you talk to someone who hasn't been on the road or doesn't understand. It's like the difference between night and day, you know. But that's the biggest thing about Bitcoin to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think for me my biggest change has been around don't trust, verify, which is that anytime somebody says something, now I just take it with such a big grain of salt of, well, I mean, I'd have to see it for myself and I'd have to run the numbers myself to believe what you're telling me right now, and especially with journalism, because there's been so much false reporting about Bitcoin. Then now I'm like, well, what else are you not quite hitting the truth on? And it kind of raises the verification question.
Speaker 2:And then also you sit back and you look at people and you go, why are they spewing out this misinformation? I mean, are they just total pieces of crap? I mean, like Peter Schiff, for instance, oh my gosh, this guy can't possibly really still think that gold's going to outdo Bitcoin, you know? Or who's it with Jamie, with the JPMod Diamond Diamond? Really his company is working with the Bitcoin ETFs, but he's still saying it's a fraud.
Speaker 2:You know, I think we've seen where he said it's crap and then his company has bought it, you know. So I mean it gives you knowledge of how much low life some people are.
Speaker 1:Yes, reveals their true self. I heard somebody say that we should start pronouncing it Jamie Demon, which I thought was a little strong, but it's a good mispronunciation.
Speaker 2:Well, there's no way he doesn't understand what's going on there. He has a lot of smart people. He hires the work for him. He doesn't even have to figure this out. You know, there are enough people that work there that can come in and explain it to him, you know. So it's no way he's sitting there going oh yeah, this is just used by people who are money launchers or drug exporters. I mean, he knows better than that, but he pronounces that and says that. So I mean you have to ask what is the motive there? You know, why would he do that? It's definitely not to make the world a better place, is to make his pocket a better place, which is fine. You just don't have to be a scumbag to make your pocket a better place Very fiat yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, very fiat, I actually. I got the opportunity to run into Jamie Diamond and get a selfie with him when I was visiting DC, so I enjoyed that. He didn't know who I was or what I was, you know, doing there.
Speaker 2:But I'm not a banker like that. Get kind of surprised when someone wants to selfie with him. I wouldn't think that a lot of people get selfies with him.
Speaker 1:He's developed a public reputation as a CEO. But he was surprised and his entourage was surprised as well. They had like grins on their faces of like, here's a fanboy which is kind of weird for a bank CEO.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what I'm saying. He must have been kind of caught off guard. I'm sure it's happened before, but it's not like something he runs into every day. Someone wanting to get a selfie with him.
Speaker 1:No, he's like Taylor Swift.
Speaker 2:That cat makes some money. She's making some money. She definitely needs to be buying some Bitcoin with that kind of cash.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there was a really interesting story about how she got pitched on FTX as an investment or endorsement, much like, I think, tom Brady ultimately did follow through on that deal. But she and her business manager turned it down so she dodged the bullet there. I think she asked for too much money.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah. Well, maybe she lucked that basket for a lot of money then and didn't lose it on. Yeah, I was surprised that they had that much grayscale to sell. I don't know how that works. When they were going bankrupt, they couldn't sell that before to try to save their company.
Speaker 1:Well, I think that a lot of people loaded up on grayscale because it was trading at a discount at worst, I think, it was trading at a 50% discount and so they kind of saw it as like a way to make returns by buying this underpriced asset. But the problem they faced was that It'd be frozen. Yes, the discount went away, but it took a long time for it to go away.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So I don't know. Like I said, we've had more bad news in Bitcoin than you can shake a stick at and it's still going strong. I mean, you know so.
Speaker 1:I don't know what more you could expect. The network operates, people are running nodes, private keys are private keys, the miners are going to mine and so everything on top of Bitcoin, like the financial layer on top of Bitcoin, it can be a total mess, but it does not affect the underlying software engineering.
Speaker 2:Do you notice how much of the crud that you hear about all the negative impact things that happen that are negative? Really all are people who are associated with shitcoins in some manner.
Speaker 2:I mean, I don't know how many times you hear of a guy who's a true Bitcoin maxi I'm in the Bitcoin only and they're going oh man, that guy's a crook. I mean, this doesn't happen. It's always someone who's they might have some Bitcoin, but they're a shitcoin for the most part. You know that bought some Bitcoin, but those are the ones you're always hearing the bad news and the bad things happening from.
Speaker 1:And perhaps it's because they're trading with leverage on these shady offshore exchanges. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, you're probably right there, sorry our video froze up there for a second.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it did freeze up there for a second, but you know, I guess the real problem is it's like my trying to think of the name of the exchange my neighbor was using when they when they one of my neighbors across the street. We were at a party and he said you're in the Bitcoin. I said yeah, and he goes, I got some Bitcoin too. I said well, congratulations, I'm glad to hear that. I said where do you have it at? Only is it Voyager, he added a.
Speaker 2:Voyager, he said. And I said, hey, I saw him, I don't know, before Voyager went down. I said, hey, did you ever take that stuff off there, like a Bitcoin off thing? I said no, I hadn't done it yet. So you really need to do it. I think you're going to go bankrupt. And then I saw him a week later and I go I haven't done it yet. And he goes because we get the mail. You know we're crossing each other. I go no, but I bought a wallet finally. And then the next thing you knew it was too late. You know terrible.
Speaker 2:But, that's what really gets you. That's what really gets you. Is it? Someone buys their Bitcoin from an exchange like that and they're assuming I guess they're assuming it's like a bank that is regulated and they're getting insurance or something, because they're just leaving it on there Like there's nothing to it. And then next thing you know, they lost all their money.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think this is one of the concerns with the ETFs is that the ETFs are going to be custodying these Bitcoin with Coinbase, but maybe it makes it too convenient in the sense that now people will be more likely to use an ETF than to self-custody and that that might lead to problems down the road if something were to happen to those Bitcoin in the ETF.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, probably I would think if you lose your Bitcoin in the ETF I mean, that's a giant honeypot I would assume that you're just out of luck if they get, because you still own the ETF. You still own an ETF. Just that doesn't have any value anymore.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and hopefully nothing happens.
Speaker 2:Knock on wood, no for sure, for sure, but you do have fidelity. I think they're doing their own custody, that's right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, are they the only?
Speaker 2:ones.
Speaker 1:I don't know, but I do know that most of them are using Coinbase and I do know that fidelity is because fidelity has been into Bitcoin for a decade. Now they are OG Bitcoiners over there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. I remember when they gosh who was that that posted that. I know who it is. I can't think his name that he was that one of the offices? Yes, and I had a Bitcoin miner in there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's great, that was that was why I was like 2018, maybe that was quite a while ago that I saw that. So, yeah, that's that's. The problem is that you know people are getting custody. Then you know another thing. I also wondered about that If there was a fork of Bitcoin and they gave out coins, everybody would the ETFs just keep those other coins and make extra money, or would the people get the value out of it that own the ETF? I mean, do they have any rights to the proceeds from forks? Not that we see them all the time, but it could happen.
Speaker 1:It's an interesting question and it's it's a question that we faced at Kraken as well when I worked there and personally not speaking for Riot or for Kraken my personal view on it is that the, the custodians, should sell the fork coins and buy BTC with it, and so that way, the you know, people are holding the value that they want and they don't have some kind of nuisance asset sitting there. That's more of a liability.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can agree with that 100%, but that was my, my curiosity. If something happened like that, if, like Jamie or BlackRock, just made more money, yeah, we got some free money today. We got 500 million today for free. That was great. And the people who own the ETFs really don't even know about it because they don't keep up with it. You just want a Bitcoin ETF. They don't know the behind the scenes stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it seems as though that maybe the forking was a thing of like Bitcoin history, in the sense that people realize that it's not a path forward. So, like Bcash is just in the dumps, so so is BSV, right Like these. There's not really good network effects from forking, and so it might just not be something that is a big deal going forward.
Speaker 2:So you don't think we're I mean we have. I haven't seen a fork in a while. That may have been some, I'm just not aware of them probably since BSV. So you think we're through with the forking on that for the most part.
Speaker 1:I mean, it seems like it. I haven't heard any credible fork proposals, so I think people have just yeah, accepted that Bitcoin is the way it is in many regards and that any upgrades, if you want to maintain the network effects, you have to do a soft fork. Well, all right, we're at the top of the hour. Gary, I really appreciate your time coming on telling the audience about BitBlock Boom Again. Go buy your tickets before they sell out. I won't be able to get you tickets when they do sell out and you did not act soon enough.
Speaker 2:Any last comments Gary.
Speaker 2:No, it's funny though, when tickets do sell out. Cuba is funny. From tickets do sell out, people start buying sponsorships and stuff just to get the free tickets that come with them. I mean, I've had that happen in the past. We were going what's the cheapest sponsorship that comes with tickets and they go okay, I'll buy that. Well, what do you want it sponsored to be? Because I don't care, I just want the tickets. Okay. So it's funny how people will buy the sponsorships to do that. But yeah, we'll sell out and, like I said, use that code BBB1. If you're interested, just go to bitblockboomcom. Yeah, we should have a great time this year, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Gary, I'm looking forward to catching up in person. Really grateful to have had you on the Block Time podcast as your podcasting credentials or something we look up to here, and we look forward to the conference.
Speaker 2:I've got my podcast Hall of Fame back there, I think, so I don't think about that very often anymore. You've, since you're bringing that up.
Speaker 1:But I appreciate it.
Speaker 2:It's good to be on the show, for sure, I look forward to seeing you.
Speaker 1:All right, have a great week, gary. Thanks again.