S3E3: Paul's Story - The Street Showed Up First - Pt 2/5

A buzzer door, a stack of landlines, a grainy camera feed, and a gun under the table. That’s not movie set dressing, it’s Paul explaining the real mechanics of Chinatown’s underground economy and how a kid ends up “working” it like a normal job. We talk through how chicken houses operated, what mahjong gambling basements looked like, and why secrecy relied less on signs and more on relationships, routines, and who had the nerve to sit there all night.

Then the conversation turns to the part people avoid saying out loud: debt bondage and the snakehead pipeline. Paul explains how smuggling payments, local control of debt, and pressure to repay fast can push vulnerable newcomers toward exploitation. He shares what he saw, what disturbed him, and how power works when the people in charge decide the rules and the consequences.

From there, we zoom out into the broader arc of 1990s New York street life: fast money, status, robberies, internal “no drugs” rules, and the fear-based discipline used to keep younger members in line. Paul recounts being stabbed, being shot, his first serious arrest, and the reality of Rikers Island when you are young, Asian American, and constantly tested. We also dig into the lines he refused to cross, and how the RICO era and crackdowns reshaped Chinatown’s organized crime landscape.

If this story hit you, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a review so more people can find it. What part of Paul’s path felt most real to you?

Please contact me at theunclewong@gmail.com

Transcript

Back Into Paul’s Past

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Yo, what's up everyone? Welcome back to Asian Uncle. This is part two of my conversation with Paul. If you haven't started from episode one, please go back there first. You'll want the full picture. So last time we talked about Paul's early years. Living with his dad who was never home. Mom upstate sister gone. Just him in the living room. And much money on the counter. No supervision. No structure. Just free reign. And you know, his parents weren't bad people. They just thought keeping the lights on was enough. And at that time a lot of immigrant parents thought that way. Even my own. So let's get right back into it.

Inside Chicken Houses And Mahjong Basements

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Like, like how was how was so so during that time you said you so you were vetted um street watchers, then you were promoted, you were watching like like like uh the whorehouses and then the mahjong places. Like what were the whorehouses like? Because from my what I remember, they were like the barber shops and then with the happy ending in the back. Like, what was it like in Mott Street? What was it like there?

SPEAKER_00 1:22

So basically, the chicken houses. It was a either either it was a apartment building, right? With like, you know, like a couple of bedrooms. Or it was like uh, you know, one of those like massage places, right? But back then there was non-descriptors, right? It wasn't like uh, you know, like advertised like this is like a massage place. You know, you would have to know somebody there that would call. So I had like a line of phones, right? You know, like like two separate lines, but you know, of course, not cell phones. I'm talking about landlines, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:04

Right.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

And then when somebody calls, you pick up, and then you know, they'd be like, hey, I'm coming, dah-da-da, and you're like, cool. And then you would, you know, see, you know, who's available, the girls who are there, whatever. And then when they come, you look on the video camera, and then you just buzz them in. That was basically what it was. You had you know, you had a gun under the table. Uh, you know where you are. And you know, you just with you and just a couple of other people just just hanging out basically there.

unknown 2:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Like what about the mahjong places? Like I remember there were the under ones, like like there were like the ones on the streets where you lift up the like um like the little basement places that you go into, like you go through like a like a buzz door in there to go into the mahjong places? Like was it like that on that street?

SPEAKER_00 2:55

That's what it was. That's exactly what it was, yeah. Okay, okay. Yeah, it was an it was an apartment.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

Or like uh or like a downstairs, like little like area. Especially like you know, like um, like local and um um Bayard?

SPEAKER_01 3:11

Which one?

SPEAKER_00 3:12

69 Bayard, you know the restaurant? Local? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So right next to there was uh one of our gambling houses.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

Huh.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

Like the one with the metal stairs on the floor downstairs, you ring the bell, yeah, and then you go in, and that's where it was.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Huh. Like how big was it? Like how many people were inside?

SPEAKER_00 3:34

For the gambling houses? Yeah, yeah. Ours was actually pretty big. We had one right next to uh Sungloke um on Ma Street, all the way upstairs. Um I mean it was pretty large floor. Uh I would say I would say we had four tables in there. So it was it was it was pretty large.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

Like what about the whore houses? How many whores would there be? Like, you know, like what is it like high turnover or was it okay?

SPEAKER_00 4:07

Oh, are you talking about the chicken houses?

SPEAKER_01 4:09

Yeah, the chicken houses were the mahjong places, like how was the turnover? You know, was it good business?

SPEAKER_00 4:13

Uh the mahjong places, people are there 24-7 because you know, because you're just gambling the whole night, right? Um, the chicken houses too were pretty pretty packed. Depending on the day, of course, you know. It's pretty packed, yeah. Um you would have maybe depending on the day, maybe like 30, 30, 40 people coming, you know, in and out.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

So how many hoes would they be? Like, you know, how many chickens would there be?

Debt Bondage And Snakehead Arrivals

SPEAKER_00 4:52

So so at that time, um so at that time the the girls who would work are the ones who basically um ow money for coming over.

SPEAKER_02 5:10

Huh.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

Right? Right. So so uh you know the snakeheads would bring them here, um, and they would have like maybe forty-fifty thousand dollar debt. And then, you know, if you were a girl, if you're a guy, they put you to work at a restaurant, like you know, like Wahop or you know, all those places.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Yeah, yeah, you have to wash dishes and and and cook and stuff in the back doing nasty stuff.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

Right, exactly. And then the girls, if you want to make money faster to pay off faster, then you become a chicken, basically.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Like how old were they? Like, was it forced?

SPEAKER_00 5:50

I mean, nothing was ever like super forced. Like you can work at the restaurants as a as a female too, washing dishes, you know, waitress, whatever, right? Right, right. But if you want to if you want to pay off your debt faster, then then you became a chicken.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

How old would they be?

SPEAKER_00 6:14

Um definitely they definitely didn't use minors, but they did use girls who were actually that's a that's a lie. Uh PRs. They used to use girls PRs who were high school age. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They were like 16-17. Yeah, that is a lie. 16-17, yeah. Yeah, pretty much, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

So was it like so these snakeheads like and and these chickens, like like who like the operations, like did like did we run them on top or was it like separate operations?

SPEAKER_00 6:55

What do you mean?

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Well, because you had because you had the people, like the whole like like the chickens from there that had to be paid in debt. So the snakeheads, of course, we had a link with the snakeheads to bring them in here. Like, were we part of that operation or was it just separate?

SPEAKER_00 7:07

No, no, no, the snakeheads um they they get paid for just bringing them over.

unknown 7:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

Once once they're here and once they're delivered, they have nothing to do with the debt. It's the people that ask for them to come, right? Or they, you know, or the ones that the debt belongs to, they're the ones who get the money.

SPEAKER_01 7:29

Ah, okay, okay. So it's paid off already once they get here and then and then they have to.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

The snake ads are are paid for bringing them here already.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Okay, okay. So who owns them at this point now? Like the like the girls that are working at like at the chicken house, like who owns them at this point?

SPEAKER_00 7:45

Um we do. Yeah. Or, you know, or the tongs, you know what I'm saying? They do.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

So where do they keep them? Like they just live in the whole house and just eat?

SPEAKER_00 7:58

No, no, no, no. There's uh separate apartments for them. Okay. Yeah, there's several, several different apartments that they that they stay at.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

So how long would it be before they pay off their debt? Like how many would one sleep with a day? And like, you know, how long would it take? Like, you know, kind of rough estimate how long it would take to pay off the debt as opposed to washing dishes, something like that, you know?

SPEAKER_00 8:20

Depends. It really depends on what they do, right? Right. And how you know how much they work, right?

Exploitation Violence And What He Saw

SPEAKER_01 8:28

Um have you seen some really sad shit about like, you know, about chickens and about like these, you know, these people who came. How did they come? And like have you seen some sad stories like while you were working there that really disturbed you?

SPEAKER_00 8:42

I mean, the whole process of like, you know, forcing chickens to take on more clients was pretty sad enough, you know what I mean? Um and you know, some of them used to get beat, you know, and you know, I've seen that too. Some of them used to get beat, some of them used to get raped.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

Um by who? Like by the clients or by the people who own them?

SPEAKER_00 9:07

Uh sometimes by the people who own them. Yeah. Um I mean the thing is this is that, you know, it's a good thing that our group never like force girls, like, you know, like force ourselves on girls, right? Because, you know, we're young too, and we got and at that time, you know, we had girls who hung out with us, you know what I mean? We don't need to do that, right? We're you know, we're Americanized, right? Right, right, right. But then when we see some of the higher-ups, you know, they're sort of I don't know. They were they were pretty pretty creepy to girls.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Yeah, and what did you do afterwards? Like, how did you get money? Like how how much you get paid, and what did you do for like daily job?

Fast Money Respect And Street Jobs

SPEAKER_00 9:56

So we got money through several ways, right? So when we when I used to work at the um at the gambling houses and stuff, uh, we used to get a stipend, right? Um, you know, I mean it was just a couple hundred dollars, right?

unknown 10:16

A week.

SPEAKER_00 10:16

Like, you know, like like maybe like two, three hundred dollars a day. Right, right, right. But as a kid, two, three hundred dollars a day, that's that's a lot, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 10:28

You only got 100, yo. I got I got ripped. Well, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Look, uh, I'm 14. Yeah, yeah. That's a lot, dude. And I have like $1,500 at the end of the week. That's you know, that's that's a lot pretty good.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

That's a lot, man. That's more than our parents make, bro.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Yeah, and so you know, the lifestyle was definitely look when you when you see like those kids like who hang out back in the day, when they when they go to like the parties and the clubs, you know, they come they come deep, they come in nice cars, they come with all the girls, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

And you see that lifestyle, you're like, yo, like why can't I have that, right? Because I'm a kid too, you know. I want to make a name for myself, you know, and you know, I want to spend money, you know, I want to go to parties and you know, come with like a whole group of girls, you know what I mean? That's yeah, that's what you see. And then, you know, these guys, they come in here, you know, they get mad respect from everybody else, right?

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Right.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

Yeah, I mean, you see all that, and it's like the ego takes over pretty much.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

Like that desire.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

Definitely, you know, like like like seriously, power trips is you know, is you know, it's a thing, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Of course, of course, of course. It's always a thing. It's always gonna be a thing, right? No matter how old you might get.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

Right, exactly. Power trip is definitely a thing.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

Like, so so so so how much money did you like make at the height of like, you know, like are you hanging out? How old were you at that time?

SPEAKER_00 12:04

Um well, you know, at that time, um, well, I was I was like what like 16, you know, I had I drove around like an eclipse, remember? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you had a car, yeah, yeah. Um, you know, I was I was making decent money. Um like in a month, you know, like sometimes like five to ten K a month. Oh wow. Um depending on what you do. You know, we used to do a lot of um a lot of jokes, which is like we used to rob like other people's gambling houses. Um we used to rob warehouses, uh, you know, like the cigarette warehouses. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, you know, extortion, of course. You know, we did a lot of that. Gambling houses. Um the only thing that my dao was like, no, was like drugs, right? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

Yeah, that was against everybody's rule, like that no drugs would be pushed until I think later on a lot of people got in trouble for that.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

Yeah, so at that time, um, at that time, all my dialos, they all did drugs, right? But we just can't sell drugs, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:26

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

Of course, of course. That was that was the deal, right? Right. You you know, you get caught selling drugs, like you're done.

SPEAKER_01 13:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

I mean, you know, there was there was a time where like they wanted to show us like what happens. And so um, I remember this guy named Segaal. Um, you know, they found out that he was selling drugs, and so they brought me and uh, you know, my my sort of you know, my boys. Uh they took us to a restaurant in flushing. Um and they took us all the way downstairs to a room. They tied him up to a chair, and they literally just beat the fuck out of him in front of us. And so they're like, yo, this is what happens if you do this, right? Yeah. Um, you know, stuff like that. So fear, right? They use fear, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:22

Yeah. Like, did you pull any like jobs or did anything really bad at that time that you that you kind of really felt bad for?

SPEAKER_00 14:31

Um, you know, I didn't feel bad about robbing gambling houses.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

How did you do that?

SPEAKER_00 14:39

Just roll up with there with a gun masked up and so basically one person has to be a decoy. You know, put them in a blazer or whatever, tell them to knock on the gambling house's door. You know, we're you know, we're pretty much on the side. Once they open up, you know, we kick them in. And you know, we have guns on us too, right? And basically we rob everybody in the gambling house. That's how it went.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

But what about the people watching the gambling houses?

SPEAKER_00 15:06

Like oh no, we went in really quick and we disarmed everybody really quick. Okay. Because because we know the layout already. We know who's there because it was an inside job. Most of it is, you know, I'm saying somebody who goes there a lot frequents it. They tell us what the layout is, they tell us who's there, you know, how people are watching it. And that's how it goes.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

But then the same thing when people rob our like you know, like when people rob our gambling houses.

SPEAKER_00 15:34

Oh, that happened before too. Yeah, that happened before too. Um yeah, I mean, once you know like like who it was, then there's drama, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:50

Yeah. And so there was, you know, there was a lot of drama with FD, because FD used to do that to us.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

And we did it back a lot too.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

Oh yeah, absolutely. It went back and forth.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

So were you ever like were you ever seriously injured, or did you ever see any of your hand guys seriously injured or killed, like in front of you?

Stabbed Shot And The Aftermath

SPEAKER_00 16:12

Um so there was one death. Um there was one death that happened. Um there was one amputation that happened. Mostly, you know, during like fights, right? I got you know, I got stabbed, I got shot.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

Where? How?

SPEAKER_00 16:45

Well, this wasn't uh so basically I got stabbed in 40th road by TV.

SPEAKER_01 16:53

By uh by what?

SPEAKER_00 16:54

By TB.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Taiwanese boys? Oh okay, okay, okay, okay, all right, okay. TBs. Okay, by the gang, okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um basically, you know, like like back then, I didn't give a fuck where I walked. You know what I mean? I would go to Grand Street, Pell Street, like I just I don't care, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 17:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

So I went on 40th road. Um, you know, TVs were there. Um you know, it was like two of us. You know, I was at a bakery, and you know, uh, what's his name? Um Shaw Jerry. They were like, what the fuck you doing here? I was like, what do you what the fuck I'm gonna do? Um, you know, I'm here. And then they had something called mini pals. Remember those mini pal knives? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, we fought and they were just stabbing the shit out of me with fucking mini, you know, mini pals. Um, you know, because I was on their, you know, on their territory, basically.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

What was going through your head at that time when you were getting stabbed?

SPEAKER_00 17:55

Well, I didn't know I was gonna stab until after, right? Until I was losing a lot of blood.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

It was the adrenaline. Um it was the adrenaline, you didn't feel it.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I didn't feel it until later. Yeah. And then of course I went to the hospital, yeah. I went to the hospital, gave a fake name, fake address. They want to know what happened. I was like, yo, I got robbed by, you know, these black guys. And, you know, and then after that, uh, we went on a war path after that. Yeah. Find any, you know, TB or White Tiger or anybody involved, whatever. Yeah. And you know, we just got out the car, just like fucked everybody up, you know.

SPEAKER_01 18:40

Yeah, I remember that time. It was it was pretty big that that that there was war. I think this was actually pretty pretty later on into like into your days, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Yeah, it was, yeah. Yeah, because the next day uh I went out to the hospital and I went up to um like a party up in the Hilton just looking for people. But I went like dirty deep, you know? Yeah. We were we ran around in cars and whoever we saw, we just it was a song, you know.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

Right. So what about so what about when you got shot?

SPEAKER_00 19:17

Uh so we had beef with BTK earlier, earlier that day at the queue.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

Earlier that day.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

Uh-huh. Earlier that night we were at the queue, the you know, the pool hall. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, and I was uh and we got into it with uh the BTK, the BDMs.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

When was this? Like like uh like what time uh frame was this? Was it was it when you were in uh it was probably around 9 I would say 96?

SPEAKER_00 19:44

Okay. 96 is yeah, yeah, it was best for me around 96. Okay. And then, you know, all my the rest of my crew uh they went back to Chinatown, but there was a party in the city, it was uh it was a dynasty party. Uh and you know, I was with four girls. I was like, yo, I'm going to the party, right? So I went to the party, um, and you know, and I see you know mad Vietnamese there anyway, and they're you know, they're all looking at me. I was like, cool, you know, you know, the I had I had some of my people there too. I had you know Bear Street guys there with me, right? Like, you know, Gabriel and you know that crew.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

Okay, elbowing it. Um like these people, huh? Like our crew or or or or another crew?

SPEAKER_00 20:30

Bayard, bear.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

Yeah. So I mean we're bear street, you know, we sort of get into problems with Bear Street sometimes too. But overall, we're you know, we're good, you know what I mean? So they were there, so I was like, you know, fuck it, right? You know, my boys were like, yo, just come back to Chinatown, you know what I mean? Because, you know, we just got into it with them, you know. There might be there might be beef. I mean, yo, fuck it, I got it, you know? Um, so I didn't listen to them. I went to the party. Um, and then after the party, I got into my car, right? All of a sudden, somebody just jumps into the back seat and just starts firing off shots. Oh shit. Yeah, and so I took one from behind. Yeah, in my own car. Just one? Yeah, just one. He fired maybe like three shots, but only one hit.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Man, what shitty aim?

unknown 21:25

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

Well, he was in the back seat and I was moving, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 21:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:30

So, and then, you know, and then he just, you know, I I started my car, I started driving, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, and then you know, he just rolled away after he shot whatever.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Like you didn't know you were shot either, probably.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Yeah, yeah, no, he didn't know, he didn't know what happened, he just started shooting.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

No, you didn't know you were shot either?

SPEAKER_00 21:49

I didn't know uh I didn't know I was shot until like a couple minutes after.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

Oh. Yeah. What were you shot?

SPEAKER_00 22:00

In the back?

SPEAKER_01 22:01

Like was it serious? Like, you know, what gun was it?

SPEAKER_00 22:05

It was uh 380.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Oh, okay. So you took a little gun. Alright. Yeah. It was a 380.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

Uh well, the problem with being shot in the back is that there's so many places that he could have hit, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

But I was lucky because he hit me my lower back, like really lower back. So he didn't hit anything. Right. Yeah. So I got really lucky.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

So how did you feel afterwards? Like, you know, did you feel like you were gonna die when you went to the hospital, or was it okay? Did it burn? You know, what was the kind of thing?

SPEAKER_00 22:39

It hurt so much.

SPEAKER_01 22:41

Like in what way? Was it burning feeling, or was it just like fuck kind of feeling?

SPEAKER_00 22:46

No, it was a feeling where like you know, like somebody took a bat to my back. Oh, yeah. It was a lot of pain. It was so much pain. Like even at first, or was it like after no, no, no, when the when the adrenaline wore off, that's when you feel it. And then you know, I was getting really lightheaded, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 23:11

You're losing a lot of blood. Yeah. Okay. And you and you went to the hospital and then and then I went to the hospital. Like what like so like when you like when was your first arrest?

First Arrest Then Rikers Reality

SPEAKER_01 23:27

Like after doing all this stuff and all the stuff that went on, like what was your first arrest?

SPEAKER_00 23:31

So my first arrest was robbing a karaoke.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

When and where? Like, like describe it.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

Um it was 96. Uh the karaoke wasn't flushing. Uh it was downstairs. Um, and the reason why we robbed it was because of the owner. The owner owed us money. So that's why we robbed you know the place.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

And what happened? Like, how did the robbery go? Like, how did you get arrested? So take us, just take me through a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

So basically, uh there was maybe let's see, one, two, like maybe five of us. Because we wanted to collect everybody in the rooms and bring them into one room, right? And then rob everybody and the place. The problem was is that nobody was watching the back door. So when I was going to the rooms, somebody went to the back door, and they forgot to tell me that somebody went to the back door. Everybody fucking fled. When I came back around, the cops were already downstairs. Oh. Yeah. Do what happened? And that was my first real arrest. I mean, I got arrested as like a minor for like fighting and stuff like that, but you know, my first real arrest was at that time.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Like for straight robbery. So, so, so, so from your first arrest up like like like even when you got shot, did you feel like you were gonna die?

SPEAKER_00 25:17

When I got stabbed, I didn't think I was gonna die.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

Like when you got shot?

SPEAKER_00 25:20

But when I got shot, I was pretty, yeah, I was pretty scared.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

Okay. Like, what about when you got arrested the first time? Like what like you know, like because you know like this was not just a fight, it was something serious. Like, what was going through your head, you know, like that was it similar, you know, like what was going through your head at that point? Did you care?

SPEAKER_00 25:42

Oh yeah, I mean But of course, you know, these these guys they always drill into you, like if you get arrested, we'll take care of you. Just don't say anything. Right? And that's what I did. I didn't say shit. Um you know, I said, yo, it was it was me. They're like, we know that you were with a lot of people. Like, don't, you know, I was like, I don't know what you're talking about. But because I was so young, right? You know, they they can't and there was like, you know, there was, I mean, what are they gonna do, right? You know, I was what, like maybe like 15, 16? Yeah. So because I was so young, you know, they're basically like, oh, you know, this was his first offense, like, you know, whatever. But in the beginning, they were trying to rail rule me because I wouldn't give anybody up. Right? But I'm like, yo, I don't know, I don't know. Like, I was there, I don't know, basically.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Okay. So you weren't scared, you didn't really care, you just thought, okay, they're gonna get me off, like, like I just just can't say shit. Right, yeah. And did you end up doing time for that? Uh I did six months. That was it. At Rikers?

SPEAKER_00 27:08

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

What was that like? It was your first time in, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:13

Yeah. Uh so Rikers, uh C74 during the 90s, it was a different animal, you know, it was gladiator school basically. Um, you know, these these kids, you know, everybody's gang-affiliated, first of all. And you're Asian, right? So they think they can rob you, they can walk all over you, right? So, you know, I definitely wasn't having that. So, you know, the first like couple of, you know, like the first like couple of weeks, you know, I got into a lot of fights my first couple of weeks. But then after that, nothing. Because they're like, yo, like, yo, that's you know, they're like, yo, that's Paul. You know, you don't, you don't fuck with Paul because he's not gonna just stand there, you know what I mean? And then, you know, I got close to people inside. So and most of them are like heads of like their their crews, you know what I mean? Right, right. So after that, I was good. Uh, you know, I didn't have to fight, you know, out and once like Asian kids came in, you know, I pulled them to my house where I was. Right. So yeah, I mean it was like, you know, at one point there was like like maybe like 12 of us in one house. All different groups. If you're Asian, you stick with Asians when you're inside. Rikers. It doesn't matter what what group you're in, doesn't matter who you follow. If you're Asian, you hang out with Asians when you're in prison.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

Or Rikers.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

Or or even thing, Rikers, upstate, doesn't matter. Okay. If you're Asian, you hang out with Asians.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

So you're okay after six months, is it? Because that kind of went by pretty quick. And and after you got out, like, did you have a girlfriend at any like at any of this time, or were you just kind of messing around? Because there was some really hot girls at Dozo, dude.

SPEAKER_00 29:06

Um, I I had, I don't know. I uh I uh I was meeting several girls. I don't if you even remember.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

Like it didn't matter to you at the time, right? Like that wasn't important.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

Yeah, you know, I just yeah, basically it wasn't important. You know, I just wanted to sleep with them, that's it, pretty much.

Lines He Would Not Cross

SPEAKER_01 29:30

So so like so like after all this, like um, you know, can you can you kind of tell me like what you think your core values are? Like something like along the lines of that you wouldn't pass, you know, whether it be from your parents or your dialogue, you know, some you know, some line that you can't pass like in like you know, deep inside. Like, do you ever have that feeling, or is it do you have a line in the sand? In that sense?

SPEAKER_00 29:52

Things that I won't do?

SPEAKER_01 29:54

Yeah, at that time. Like, of course, now you do, but then at that time of all this stuff happening going around you, did you ever have any core values at the time? Like, oh, this is you know I can't do this, I can't kill somebody, or I can't is this was there anything that you couldn't do? Well, uh, we couldn't cross.

SPEAKER_02 30:17

I mean, there's a lot of stuff that I didn't do because I didn't want to do it.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

You know what I mean? Um anything dealing with women. Um anything dealing with families. Okay. Like if you if you're walking with your family and I got mad beef with you, like I'm not gonna touch you, you know what I mean? You're with your family, you know? Yeah, that's just something that we just didn't do, you know what I'm saying?

unknown 30:46

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:47

Like if you're walking with your kid and your wife, like I'm not gonna do anything to you, you know what I mean? But like there's certain lines that you don't want to cross, of course, you know?

SPEAKER_01 30:58

Um, did you have any?

SPEAKER_00 31:04

What do you mean?

SPEAKER_01 31:04

Like, did I have any lines like besides this? Like, did you have any other lines you couldn't cross, like, you know, besides maybe like not hurting kids or women, not doing drugs? Uh was there any other lines you couldn't cross? What about killing somebody?

SPEAKER_00 31:18

Oh, yeah, of course. You don't go out. Look, when you're a kid, you don't think about killing people. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like, like nobody wants to kill anybody. That's you know, that's just it's gonna be hot for you, half for the group. You know what I mean? You don't want to do that, you know what I mean? Even even like hangouts, they know that, right? Here's the thing the only way that you know somebody like died back in the day is if they did something really, really fucked up, like like they snitched on the whole group or something, right? But it's not as if like you know, like people went out to just like kill people, you know what I mean?

unknown 31:58

Right.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

It was it was I mean, even even people who go like like I was there when they shot up genies, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:06

They shot up who?

SPEAKER_00 32:07

Genie's bar?

SPEAKER_01 32:08

Where?

SPEAKER_00 32:10

It's uh Mulberry Street.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

Oh, okay, okay, okay, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:13

Yeah, so I was there when BTK came in and they shot it up. Oh right, but here's the thing, like they shot it up, but I know that they didn't shoot it up to really like kill somebody. Because these are kids too, you know what I mean? They they were all kids. And so, you know, I mean, in the 70s, yeah, I mean, you know, if you were if you were, you know, like really, really involved, yeah, there were, you know, there was a chance that you might you might you you might die. It was it was like that during the 70s, right? 70s, you know, even in the early 80s. But once you got to the 90s, you know, the law was definitely not playing around anymore. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 33:03

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

It was a totally different animal.

unknown 33:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

Um of course, now it's like completely different now. Like you can't do shit now, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 33:13

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:15

Back back then, even in the 90s, early 90s, um, because I caught the tail end of that era, right?

SPEAKER_01 33:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

And you caught the tail end of the era that was changing, right? Yeah. Pretty much like you know, when they started shifting, right?

SPEAKER_01 33:33

Yeah, yeah. Like we're sort of dying everywhere because you know, it's yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:36

So so I caught the tail end of an era where now the police were on to you know, the recall law and everything else, right? So like like 92, 93 was pretty much before 96, it was still like that, you know, era where it was like shifting like into law.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:00

After 96, it was like, forget it, like, you know, Rico law, you're just gonna get arrested. That was it. Yeah. Um, you know, and at that time it was Michael Lau who who used to work at Fifth Precinct. Um, Michael Lau used to stop, you know, pull us over all the time. You know, and so, and Michael Lau's Chinese, you know what I'm saying? So even even the cops during my time were on the take. Right? And if you don't pay, then they'll cause trouble for you. So they were on the take too. Okay. But after 96, nobody was on the take after that. Yeah. Well, no, no, no. I can't, you know, I'm lying, actually. After 96, up to up until like the maybe like two thousand early 2000s, you know, you still had a couple of cops, like especially in flushing, who were on the take because those those guys got arrested in the you know in the 2000s for you know extorting money from like the the PRs and you know the room slaws. Yeah. Um yeah, I mean, but you know, I mean, me, like, like when I was hanging out, I the reason why I learned Chinese was because I didn't want my own group to take advantage of me. Because I saw how they were using the Korean kids. You know, because they can't, you know, they're they're Korean, they don't speak the language, whatever. So that's why I'm like, yo, I gotta, you know, I gotta at least learn the language so they don't take, you know, take advantage of me, right?

unknown 35:38

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

Okay. Like, so so the next part is kind of how you ended up you know getting arrested later on, you know, to prison, right? So like, you know, can you kind of so I know that you know at that time you you kind of went missing. Um I remember at that time, so this is the second segment of our story, we're almost done, bro. So I remember at that time when when you kind of had an emotional downfall, not even emotionals, when uh when all our like like when all the Ma Street Dalos got arrested, like when they rather everybody, like the four guys, like they rather everybody. Like I think that was a time I think you stepped out of school. Um, you know, you weren't in school anymore, and and um and I think everything fell apart with you at that time. Right? Like, so what happened at that time and how did you end up you know in prison?

SPEAKER_00 36:29

Um so basically Do you want to take a break?

SPEAKER_01 36:32

Or like are you telling you want to take a break, kind of you know, take a piss and come back?

SPEAKER_00 36:36

Oh no, no, I'm good right now. Okay. Um I'm just here drinking my Jameson, just talking.

SPEAKER_01 36:41

Oh, you're drinking a Jameson?

SPEAKER_00 36:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

Oh shit. Man, you're making me want to go get some drink now.

SPEAKER_00 36:47

No, I'm taking very, very little. Like, I'm just taking like little sips.

SPEAKER_01 36:51

So yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's good. That uh like that'll make you relax. No, don't worry, we're almost like like we're more than halfway through. Like, how did it, you know, like how did you end up there? Like what you know, what was going on, you know, through your head?

Crackdowns Laying Low And A Shooting

SPEAKER_00 37:05

So basically, my thing was um my daw was like uh you have to lay low. Like, what are you gonna do? Right? You know, lay low. And and this was a time when I had kids under me too. You know what I mean? So I needed to support them.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

You had two kids under you, right? I I remember.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

Yeah, so I had two kids under me. Um you know, you know how everybody held else had like 18, 20 kids? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some people did. Like me, like like it wasn't about the numbers, right? I wanted like smart kids, you know what I mean? So I had two kids, and under them, they had maybe like four or five kids each, right? But I didn't, I'm not going to talk to like my kids' kids, right? But I still needed to do things, you know. At that time, you know, they like like right before I actually went in, went in for that stretch, you know, I had a couple of things. I had restaurants, you know, I had a uh, you know, taxi service that I was uh collecting from. So at the time when everybody got arrested, we shut down operations, right? Um because the the whole of Chinatown was hot. Every they were they were getting swept everywhere. That was when like Giuliani and the new task force came in, right? So they're like an Asian, you know, task force where where the RECO law was introduced, right? And so all the streets were getting swept. You couldn't do anything at that time, right? And so they're like, yo, you gotta lay low. You know what I mean? And so that was a time where you know I was still, you know, I did a lot of dirt, so I had to like fall back a little bit, right? And so at that time, I was just trying to figure out ways where I can sort of make money, um, not only for myself, but you know, for for you know, for my kids too, you know? Yeah. Um so basically I got in with another guy um who used to lend money to people, a loan shark. Um and I used to collect money for him. And what happened was there was a guy uh that was part of you know his family. And you know, I was of course, you know, my group, whatever. So I brought one of my guys, his guys to collect from somebody. Um and the guy, you know, he didn't want to pay. Um, he pulled out a gun and then he got shot.

SPEAKER_01 40:01

Okay. We're gonna stop here for today. And what I keep thinking about is none of this was dramatic. He didn't get recruited, nobody sat him down his head joined a gang. He just kept showing up, kept his mouth shut, and didn't flinch. And that was enough. The street has a way of finding the people who have nowhere else to be. And we'll get further into that in part three. Thank you again for listening.