S3E5: Paul's Story - Just Empty - Pt 4/5

Violence is usually sold as a rush, but Paul describes something colder: “just emptiness.” We pick back up in the middle of his 17-year prison sentence, right where life stops being rumors and becomes real time, real consequences, and long stretches of routine. He talks about spending months in the box (Special Housing Unit), getting through it by staying focused, and learning how prison relationships can form even when you never see someone’s face.

From there, the conversation opens up into what rehabilitation actually looks like behind bars. Paul explains how Green Haven Correctional Facility became a pivot point when older Asian inmates pushed him into self-help and prison education programs. College wasn’t just a credential, it was structure and identity. He shares how reputation and “status” can protect you from constant fighting, while also creating new pressures, especially when transfers send you back into unfamiliar yards and old conflicts can resurface years later.

We also get into the gritty details people rarely ask about: the daily schedule, working as a teacher’s assistant, how guards treat different groups, and the racial stereotypes that shape who gets targeted and who gets left alone. The final stretch is all about parole board preparation, getting denied, coming back, and the moment freedom finally lands after nearly two decades.

If this story gives you a new perspective on prison culture, solitary confinement, prison reform, and reentry, subscribe, share the episode, and leave a review. What part of Paul’s path surprised you most?

Please contact me at theunclewong@gmail.com

Transcript

The Turning Point Ahead

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Yo, what's up everyone? Welcome back to Asian Uncle. This is part four of my conversation with Paul. And if you're just tuning in, please go back to episode one first. You'll definitely want the full picture before we get into this one. So when we left off, Paul was still on the edges. Watching. Standing outside businesses. Learning who's who. Earning that trust in small increments. Nothing official yet, but everyone knew where he stood. Now this episode is where all that changes. Collections. Real money. Standing in on meetings. And then the moment violence stopped being something he heard about his stories. And it became something he was actually in. I remember asking him when we were kids about some of these so-called jobs that he pulled. And what it felt like. You know what he told me? He told me that he wasn't scared. He wasn't proud either. It was just emptiness. Those words stayed with me back then. And sitting here now all and sitting here now after all these years. Hearing him say it again. It meant something completely different. Alright, let's get back into it.

Eight Months Alone In The Box

SPEAKER_00 1:45

And you were there for eight months by yourself.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Like any any interesting stories with your like, well not cellmates, but but the people next to you, like, you know, what would like talk to them a lot? Anything crazy? Anything you want to share?

SPEAKER_01 2:05

I mean, they were they weren't like crazy. Um they weren't crazy at all. They were they were they were really chill, you know. Uh one of them was um was a stony, he was a blood, stony blood. Um and him and I got along really well. Um because it's just us, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00 2:27

But you never seen his face.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

I never saw his face. I don't know what he looks like. Even to the day I got transferred, you know?

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Right. Yeah.

Finding Mentors In Green Haven

SPEAKER_00 2:39

And so afterwards you went to um Green Haven for nine years. You told me before Green Haven had a lot of Asians, people stuck together better.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Like, how was that like so it was in Green Haven when I started doing like school and like focusing on like programs and stuff like that. And the reason why was because um I met um like four young there. And they were a lot older than me, right? They were like 10 years older than me, and they've been in prison for bad long already. And so they were the ones who like convinced me, like, yo, like do something with yourself, you know. Like, like us, we got 33 and you know, third. You got you got what 17 years? Like we got double of what you have. You're definitely gonna be home, at least in your 30s, you know what I mean? And 30s is still young.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

You know, you're not, yeah, yeah, you miss your 20s and all that, but 30s, you can you definitely can start a life in your 30s, like no problem. Yeah. And so they like like they put me in like different programs, you know. They, you know, they had a lot of power in the prison too, you know, the um young uh K. Um, you know, his name is Kwanyang, right? And so he's Korean, you know, but he had but he had a lot of status in the prison. So he put me in programs that he wanted me to do, and it's all like self-help programs, and you know, when college came, he was like, yo, you know, do it, just just do it. And so that's what I did. Just worked on myself. And you know, by that time, like I didn't need to fight anyway, because you know, people knew who I was, you know, right. Like people knew my name, either heard about me or I was with them upstate. So I didn't need to fight at all. And then I got to know people where I was, and so everybody that I met all has some status in the prison, you know. So like like nobody was nobody was trying to fight me, nobody was trying to do anything.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

It's crazy, man. And and so nine years there, like, where did you like like why did they like like like before they transferred you out because you couldn't stay there at you know that long. So in those nine years, you finished college there.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

So actually from Green Haven towards the end, college came, right? Um, because like by by nine years, like I have you know the lay of land, and you know, like I I had a lot of status inside Green Haven by the end, right? Like, you know, I can get like personal food in that other people can't get. Um you know, I had like special privileges that other people didn't have, you know what I mean? You know, I was running programs, you know, like stuff like that. So by the end, once I got into college, I did two years there towards the end of college. And then uh the program, I got into the bachelor's program, and so in order to do the bachelor's program, you have to go to Eastern. So that's where

College Track And Sudden Transfers

SPEAKER_01 6:10

I went um for that, Eastern.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

And then how long did you stay there for?

SPEAKER_01 6:18

Um, so I stayed in Eastern for I would like to say for two, like two and a half years.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

So I was in the BA program nice at um Eastern. And then and then I went to the shoe again because you know they they said that I like hacked the computer or something, and it was, I don't know, something like that.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

No, where did you go? You went to the the box again?

SPEAKER_01 6:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

Oh to five points?

SPEAKER_01 7:05

There's a box there. I went to uh I went to a 2000 box. Um but I was only there for maybe like three months. I think like lake view or something.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

Lakeview? Something like that?

SPEAKER_01 7:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

And you stayed there for three months. It's like another box like five point, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:30

Yep. Same thing.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

And what happened afterwards?

SPEAKER_01 7:36

I went to Kaksaki.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

Katsaki?

SPEAKER_01 7:40

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Oh, that's upstate, right? Upstate. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Katsaki.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

And you stayed there for what, like the last two years?

SPEAKER_01 7:49

Uh so after Kaksaki, um Kaksaki's also on Max. I went to Wuppern. Two years left in my bed.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

So how long were you in Kitsaki for?

SPEAKER_01 8:04

I was there for a year. One year. Just a year.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

But was it hard adjusting to like like like um the like like you were a Kesaki? Like, was it hard adjusting to all these places after you went to Eastern?

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Um well, Eastern was a max too, so I mean it was a hard adjusting. Kaksacky was more of a a lockdown, adolescent sort of place. It was a little bit more wild. That's where you people usually go after they come out from um the shoot.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

What's a chute?

SPEAKER_01 8:46

Special housing unit. The box is the special housing unit.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

Okay. This is where they go after they come out of the shoot. Yeah. And you stayed one year there and then you got transferred. So, like one year, like did you have to meet new people? Like, did you have to fight again? No, right? That's everybody knew.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

No, because by that time, I've been in the system so long that you know, people knew I was already.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

So had like a kind of life of its own, like a own system of its own, like prison, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:17

Yeah. I mean, I've been in by then I've been in there for you know, like 14 years already. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 9:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

So like I go there, I'm gonna know at least somebody who's been with me before. Right. Yeah. And so when I go there, you know, like if I go over the yard, I'm gonna meet somebody that I know. And luckily, you know, my other young that I knew wasn't there, young young. He was he was at Kaksack. And, you know, he had a lot of um, you know, power in Kaksacky. So I was good anyway.

Daily Routine And Surviving Old Beef

SPEAKER_00 9:55

So like after that, like your typical day, like what like like what time would you wake up? Like what would you do, like like routine-wise?

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Uh so you wake up at like seven, you know, you go to breakfast, um, and then they make you take a program or they make you work. So I was you know, I was working um as a uh TA, teacher's assistant. Right. Uh so I used to go down to the school and just help out with the with the with the school program.

unknown 10:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

And then um, you know, you go to lunch from your program, and then you come back to your program. And then at night, you know, once um after you eat dinner, um you either go to the yard or you go to your programs. Like there's different, so many different programs or like you know, organizational you know, stuff. Um you go to the library, you can go to the yard, you can go to um, you know, whatever program that you're taking at night. And yeah, that was your day.

SPEAKER_00 11:04

Like, how long did it take you like when you were in the system for you to adjust to that kind of like you know, like every day, wake up, go to work, or or go to a certain program, go to the yard, chill, relax. Like, how long did it take you to adjust to all that adjusting to the prison life? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like adjusting where you kind of like didn't have to fight like all the time, we'll have to you know watch it back, like you know, would you say three, four years, five years? When you made a name for yourself at least.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

I mean, some of that always lingers throughout your bid, right? Because you're like, yo, like if I see somebody that I did dirty in the beginning and they come back later on, then it can be a problem, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

And you know, there were several times during the end of my, you know, like towards like the middle of my bid where that happened, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

But here's the thing, like later on, I'm a different person now. And my status is different now, you know what I mean? Yeah, so he can't, you know, the person, I'm not a newbie anymore. You know, I'm not, you know, I'm not some, you know, just fresh fish, right? So let's say you come, you know, you come back or whatever, and then you come to the prison, like, you know, it's not me anymore. Like other people are gonna tell this dude, like, yo, like, like, nah, you don't touch Paul. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 12:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

And so, you know, there were like instances where I see people and we got beef, and then they can't do shit anyway. Because his own people, you know, are gonna tell him, yo, nah, man, you don't, Paul's not the one. Like, no, you don't touch him. But me at the same time, like, yo, I'm you know, I'm trying to change too. So a lot of the times I go out to them, I'm like, yo, yo, what is it like 10 years ago, bro? Like, yo, let's sit down and have a talk. And so, you know, that happened a lot too, and then you know, you end up being cool with that person too at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

Yeah.

Guards, Race, And Who Gets Targeted

SPEAKER_00 13:10

Like, what like like how was like the guards, or like, you know, was it you know, was it really racist? Would you say you had a bad experience with the guards or anything? No, right? Or it's more with the inmates and how to kind of how like life went in there. Was like your worst experience?

SPEAKER_01 13:24

So the guards, they actually don't do anything to the Asians mostly.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

Why?

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Because a lot of them like the Asians.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Because like we're well behaved, just kind of like traffic stops, like they they stop the black people from at the Asians.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

Yeah, yeah, they see Asians, you know, in a certain way, right? So, you know, they like cops never really mess with Asians. And a lot of things too is that you know, like there's certain CEOs who look out just for the Asians.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

That's interesting. Yeah. Like, like, would you say, like, you know, like like so that now now after all this, like, so when you were in Woodburn, like the last, you know, like how long were you in Woodburn? Like two years?

SPEAKER_01 14:13

Yeah, two years. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

So

Parole Board Pressure And Preparation

SPEAKER_00 14:15

that so that's the phase when you started planning to get out, like, and what did you plan? Like, what was going on in your head at that time?

SPEAKER_01 14:23

So that was the time where um I was just trying to get myself ready. So, so here's the thing. Um, so it was not definite that I was going to go home because you know, I have to go see the parole board. Right. Um, but I've been working super hard to make myself presentable for the board, right? So because I did so well up to a certain time, um, they gave me six months credit to see the board early.

unknown 15:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

So I saw the board, and they didn't let me go home at that time. They said um, because of the nature of the crime, da-da-da, we don't feel like he's you know, like ready to go out into society. And that was for my six months' credit. And then I saw the board six months later, and that was when I made the board to go home.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

How do you feel at that point? What was going through your mind or your feelings at that point when you were allowed to go home?

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Listen, there's no feeling like that in the world, man. When you find out that you have your freedom, no feeling in the world like it. None.

SPEAKER_00 15:52

17 years, man.

Freedom After 17 Years

SPEAKER_00 15:58

Alright, let's stop here. You know what I keep coming back to? When violence finally entered the picture, there was no drama to it. No rush, no pride, just emptiness. Movies never show you that part. They give you the adrenal, the loyalty. They don't show you the silence afterwards. The part where you can't or don't even want to say a word to anyone because it's not something you want to share. And it gets heavier before it turns. Thank you for listening.