Till The Wheels Fall Off

#259 - Separate the Behaviors from the Addiction

• TWFO Couple - Matt & Paige Robinson

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This week we’re taking a short break from recording and revisiting a powerful episodes from mid 2024, Separate the Behaviors from the Addiction. 

How much should you focus on the substance? To what degree is the substance responsible for someone's behavior? Is it easier to forgive someone's bad behavior because they're addicted? Should compassion for a struggling addict or alcoholic overshadow your needs for an equal partner, or for honesty in a relationship? With all of the information on addiction that ranges from choice to disease, it's incredibly hard to know what you should have tolerance for and what you shouldn't. We propose something that worked for us - focus on the behaviors and how they affect you and cast aside the substance. It has been our experience that the substance only made existing behaviors more severe, but it was not the cause of all of them. Long after the substance was removed, many of the harmful behaviors within our relationship remained. We discuss the benefits of focusing on behaviors rather than the substance to bring clarity to a relationship or marriage where addiction is present. We also discuss some of the common ways alcoholics and addicts use the addiction as an excuse for their behaviors and how this keeps spouses "trapped." We touch on the dangers of long-term lying and emotional abuse from an addicted person and how these things affect a spouse, and why many of the harmful behaviors you identify hang around long after the substance is gone. Our goal for the episode was to highlight the fact that it's not the substance that causes harm, it's the behaviors that come along with addiction and how they affect you, your children, and your environment. 

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SPEAKER_05:

Hey y'all, Paige here. Matt and I are taking another week off of recording due to live lifing and wanted to bring back an episode from mid-2024. This conversation cracks something open for so many people, especially those who have spent years trying to make sense of addiction by focusing on the substance, the alcohol, the drugs, instead of the behavior. What this episode explores in depth is that it's not the substance that destroys trust and safety, it's the behavior that comes with it. The lies, the manipulation, the dismissiveness, all the things. That's what truly impacts the spouse, the partner, the family, the behaviors. And like all of our earlier episodes, our language and understanding may have evolved since then. So you might hear us reference things we'd word a little differently today, but the heart of the message still stands. But before we get into it, a huge thank you to Soberlink, the sponsor of today's show. If you're new here, Soberlink is the world's best accountability device, uh, disguised as a breathalyzer. If you're someone like Matt, rebuilding trust after addiction when your words have lost meaning because promises were made and broken, this could change everything. You can create a network of people who get notified every time you test, and every negative test becomes another drop back into the bucket of trust. Remember, trust is lost in buckets and rebuilt in droplets. Soberlink helps refill that bucket one test at a time. You can rent one for as little as$19 a month when you sign up for a one-year plan. Just go to soberlink.com slash wheels and enter your email address. Whether you're working towards sobriety, rebuilding your relationship, or simply creating accountability and safety, even if you've left the relationship and you have children to look after, Soberlink provides the transparency and consistency that recovery requires. Thank you, Soberlink, for sponsoring this episode. All right, let's get into it. There may be a few things discussed that are a bit dated, but let's go ahead and jump back to mid-2024 for separate the behaviors from the addiction.

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome back. Welcome back to another episode of To the Wheels Fall Off. I'm Matt.

SPEAKER_04:

I'm Paige.

SPEAKER_00:

Today we're talking behaviors versus substances. This is gets kind of complicated for people. They oftentimes attribute the behavior to the substance. And what Paige has always said is it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_05:

No, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Um, I like to look at behaviors because behaviors actually impact us. It's not the addiction that impacts us, it's not the substances that impact us, it's the actual behaviors, and that's what we're going to discuss in depth here on this episode today.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, if it was just me ingesting the substance, what's the problem? I'm just ingesting the substance, right? Right. Let's say that it doesn't cost any money. I'm just ingesting a substance. It's not the substance that bothers people, but they don't really realize that. Yeah. Because that's the most glaring thing that they can attribute to the behaviors. But we're going to get into this. Yes. Tear it apart, dissect it, and hopefully reframe the way that you look at this. This has been helpful for us.

SPEAKER_04:

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00:

But first, we're going to get into some announcements real quick.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Hey, if you didn't know, we have a community. We have a free Facebook community. It's called Two Fo Community. That's TWFO Community. Uh, come check it out. If you're a listener and you didn't know it existed, it's a thing. And you can find it by clicking the link in any of our social media profiles. Hey, we've also got a course.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Independently strong. It's the only thing I'm aware of out there that is designed exactly for what you are going through. It is designed for the spouse or partner of someone struggling with a substance abuse disorder. It's uh it's it's robust, it has got 10 modules. It is self-paced. We do not time you, we will not clock you on this thing. It also includes access to us as you work through it and community calls.

SPEAKER_05:

Yes, they start this Wednesday.

SPEAKER_00:

Paige is going to be hosting community calls.

SPEAKER_05:

If you are listening to this on release day.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, you'll be in the community call, hopefully, at some point. Get in there. You should have received an email about this. Uh, it's a great place to process what you're working through in the course material. Super helpful. But it's also science-backed, research-backed, with the help of Dr. Christopher Taylor. He is our clinical architect that helps us design this, so it's not just us two goons. You have to know that part of- I hate that you call me a goon.

SPEAKER_05:

I'm not a goon.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, one goon and one beautiful woman. It is the experience of lived experience of us with the research and the license of a medical professional.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, it's amazing.

SPEAKER_00:

So it's not just us, it's it's awesome. Uh, people that are working it have said that listen, I've spent thousands on therapy, wish I'd have just got this. People have said, um, I've searched the internet for God knows how long, and I couldn't find anything, but I stumbled across this, and there's nothing like it. There are other people who have studied this very thing their entire lives and found relief through this. Yeah. So it is different, it is new, it is out there. You get the perspective of me, recovered addict that has worked through this, and the perspective of a spouse that has been there, done that, and also helps other spouses work through this.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, you will come out feeling stronger.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh, rocks are still available too. Yeah, more and more rocks are going out. I love seeing this. Every time an or comes in for a rock, I'm like pumped. I'm like, this is a person that listens first of all. Yes. And they're they're acknowledging their spouse's sacrifices, the spouse's journey.

SPEAKER_05:

Yes. And it makes my heart happy that people who are actually in recovery from substances are listening and gaining something from the show. Like that just goes to show that it's it's important for everybody involved, you know? Like they're learning something.

SPEAKER_00:

It's amazing.

SPEAKER_05:

And I hope that it's helping their marriage. I hope it's helping their recovery. I hope it's helping so many different aspects of their lives.

SPEAKER_00:

It's like our greatest dream come true. That's something that we didn't even think would be possible in the beginning. It's like we're gonna tell this story, and and people who are struggling and addiction are gonna hate it. But it's helpful for them. And I love that because it was sort of intended that way. I just didn't know if anyone would actually listen. But it's incredible. So these rocks, with the help of a listener, um, an awesome listener, gave me this idea for this rock. So in 12-step programs or yeah, generally 12-step programs, I think they all do this. They give a coin or a keychain or something to denote, hey man, you've been sober for 30 days. Here's a here's a token to show that you know we're proud of you. That's awesome. You can show this to people. Hey, I'm really working it. It's nice. I've got mine on a what do you call that? Like a plaque? Sure. Yes, all the coins up there, and you kind of collect them as time goes on. You can look back on them and remember where you were. It's a cool way to just commemorate your your efforts. Spouses don't get that. I remember coming home with my my one-year coin, and everyone's really happy for me. And Paige was happy for me, but there was also part of her that was sad because your journey wasn't acknowledged, your sacrifices weren't acknowledged. Like you were as much a part of this as anybody, and you were the victim of a lot of it. And there's no acknowledgement. Yeah, there's nothing there. Yeah, like this is a way to do that. So on the front, it's got our logo, the two-foe logo, till the wheels fall off, with our little skull guy there with the we should break this down real quick. If people didn't know, I know our logo, I was thinking the same thing. It's not just a skull, it's supposed to, so first of all, okay, backstory. We we are like Halloween people. We always enjoyed spooky things, and so we wanted something that reflected our personalities, but it had to have meaning too. A this is a a skeleton man or woman, doesn't really say person, human skeleton person, and that represents the maskless nature of authenticity. To truly be yourself and to live by your values means that you're not living for anyone else or anything else. You were living your truest self. So that requires taking your mask off underneath all of us, underneath these masks, these faces we wear. There's a skeleton man like that. One of his eyes is a heart because we deal with matters of the heart. And the other one is it's a what do you call it, like a red cross symbol, like a medicine symbol? Yeah. Because we do as well. I mean, we talk about self-care, we talk about taking care of the mental health, taking care of we're not licensed counselors, but I think you can gain something from this all the same.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

That was part of our journey. And then uh it's got this like dead twig looking thing with little leaves growing out of it to symbolize growth from something that you thought was lost.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So there's must there's something to this logo. I love the logo. Not just a skeleton person. Uh on the back of it, it says thank you for being my rock, which is the real point of it. You get this, and it's like, thank you for being my rock. And it is a rock, so that's fun. Puns are fun. Um, and I think that's all we have for announcements. Yes. You can check those out on our website.

SPEAKER_05:

All right, so let's talk about behaviors versus substances. Like, I don't know if we've I bring it up You say it all the time. I do. I do, I say it all the time within our our episodes, and I don't feel like I I I hit on it as much as I really want to, because it's almost one of these things that came natural to me. Because with our situation, you're a closet closet addict. So everything that you did in active addiction, I was looking at the behaviors. I was recognizing what you were doing that was impacting me, taking money out of the account, neglecting me, lying to me, leaving on our, you know, for hours on end. I recognized those behaviors. I didn't make excuses for addiction or use or whatnot. You know, I I just, it wasn't in the cards for me because you were, like I said, a closet addict. So focusing on the behaviors is so important for so many of us because it does impact us, addict or not. You know, if somebody's lying to you and they're not an addict, how are you gonna handle that? Are you gonna make excuses for them or are you gonna say, I don't appreciate lying because this goes against my values because honesty is a value of mine. So what am I gonna do? I'm gonna do things to protect myself, which means I'm not gonna be around this person that much. I'm going to do whatever it takes to protect myself. You're not gonna make excuses that they're just an addict, or you know, you're gonna say, no, they're lying to me. Or it's just just the substance that's causing a strength. Or whatever. Yeah, because you're like, no, they're lying because it affects you. The behavior affects us.

SPEAKER_00:

I love your frame of that. And I would encourage listeners to for a moment, if you're driving your car or whatever, like imagine your loved one and forget about the substance for a moment. Picture that they were like me and they were a closet addict. Like, I hid my addiction for years and years and years. Like you knew I drank, but even then, I hid how much I drank. I hid that. Right. I was very careful about keeping my bottles in certain places, so you didn't know I was drinking. So the so like the the house bottle always stayed full. And you were just getting the behaviors.

SPEAKER_05:

And I knew you all the time all the time, too. And I didn't like appreciate that. And I knew that you would take Adderall sometimes, like, but it wasn't like it was all behaviors still. It was still always behaviors. It was not the fact that you were doing those things.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it wasn't out in the open and just apparent and to everybody. So, so frame it like that. Like, let's just focus on the behaviors for the context of this discussion in this episode. And yes, before we get into it, we are very aware that substances can cause certain behaviors, substances can make them worse, I should say.

SPEAKER_04:

They amplify them.

SPEAKER_00:

Amplify them. Like, we're not, we're not that's not lost on us. I don't want people to think that we're over here sitting there thinking, like, no, I didn't always run around the neighborhood naked, you know?

SPEAKER_01:

Like, right, right.

SPEAKER_00:

Alcohol certainly played a part in that. Yes. We're not we're not saying it doesn't, but we're focusing on the behaviors and how they affect you. That's what's important about this conversation.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. Let's let's dive into this and let's talk about where people generally look at this incorrectly in your perspective, in your opinion, and and how you look at it.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah. So I I see that a lot of wheelies struggle with separating the two because it's understandable, like we there's so much information about addiction and alcoholism and why it happens, and then we lean into having like so much compassion that we lose ourselves in the process. So we can have compassion, right? But not tolerate the behavior. So I wanted to kind of backtrack for a second. So for me, when I'm called out on a behavior, recently you called me out on a behavior, and it sucks.

SPEAKER_00:

Can we just let the let it all hang out and let's just l talk about it?

SPEAKER_05:

What happened?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, that's what we're gonna talk about. Like it sucks that I know that why my behavior was present. Um, but it didn't excuse me from continuing to do the behavior. You want to talk about what happened?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, we were we don't argue a lot. Like we really don't. Like stupid spats here and there, like dumb little stuff, but 10 second spats. Like, we don't have like big blow ups, and I really don't bring up a whole lot of things, but there's one thing in particular that I challenged Paige something on here recently. So Paige is extremely introverted, extremely introverted. When we started this podcast, I more or less I think I don't know how long it took me to convince you that this was gonna be a good idea, but it was like I was just I was relentless. I was like, we should do this, we should do this, we should do this, we should do this. Knowing full well that you are not a person that really likes to talk in public um or be put on the spot or have to come up with things, and like you're just you're very much like in your mind type of person.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So we went somewhere. Well, where were we when this all took place?

SPEAKER_04:

We were it was a it was a kid eventually. Yes, it was a school event.

SPEAKER_00:

A school thing. So we went to the school thing.

SPEAKER_04:

You don't have to go into detail.

SPEAKER_00:

We showed up, and there's like it's a small gathering of parents and kids, and there's like, I don't know, five sets of parents probably ish.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And I walk in and say hello to people because it's an intimate setting, so you can't really like just not say anything because then that'd be a little bit awkward. So you just say hello, exchange pleasantries, BS a little bit. And I noticed that like Paige was next to me at one point, and then she just sort of disappeared, and I couldn't find her. I turned around and she was like hiding in the back, sitting in this chair, not talking to anybody. I'm like, well, that's kind of what Paige does. The the conversation came about because we we interact with people more than we ever have. Like when we decided to start this podcast, we also signed on to making ourselves public.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And y'all, if you ever meet Paige, she is the kindest, most generous, loving person you'll ever meet. But if you met her, you might think, I think I think she got an ep and problem or something.

SPEAKER_04:

She's a bitch.

SPEAKER_00:

That's not true. She's just she's very introverted and she's very self-conscious.

SPEAKER_05:

I'm also I'm very a lot of my HSP comes out with this. I'm I pick up on subtle subtleties a lot and I'm just very uncomfortable, you know, just not um small talk makes me uncomfortable and things like that.

SPEAKER_00:

You get overstimulated very easily.

SPEAKER_05:

I do, I do.

SPEAKER_00:

And then like pair that with just like general social anxiety, you start to think too hard about like how you're appearing to people, or like it's she she gets in her head about it.

SPEAKER_05:

Well, I also isolated myself a lot during my healing process. So getting back into the wild is becoming a process.

SPEAKER_00:

And I think part of that being like being a mother to young kids too, like you're unless you're the type of mother that's like involved with all the moms, that wasn't that wasn't you. No. You were you were more like to yourself about things, and you've kind of always been that way. And it's it's worked well for you, but now we've made this decision. It's like, hey, let's start this podcast, let's let's start a course, like let's do workshops. And so we have to be out there. And it's not to say that you need to be fake at all, because you're not a fake person. I just want people to know you. And like I think they deserve to know you, the person they hear every week, like the real version of you. So I challenged Paige and I said, Hey, I know this is difficult for you. I know that you struggle with this, but I'm gonna challenge you to step up to the plate a bit more and introduce yourself and talk to people and just get more comfortable doing it. Just like the podcast, like almost a hundred episodes in, and just you get more comfortable whenever you expose yourself to it. And how did you respond to that?

SPEAKER_05:

Oh, I was mad. I was mad. I was mad, I was angry. It stung, like it really stung.

SPEAKER_00:

I was that nice about it though, was I not?

SPEAKER_05:

You were. I mean, there was a point you said that no, you seem like a bitch. You did tell me that. You said that.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, I think you're right.

SPEAKER_05:

You did because you had to spell it out for you.

SPEAKER_00:

I just spelled I was like, but Paige, people think that you're a bitch and you're not.

SPEAKER_05:

Right, right, right. I know. And and it was fine. And I was like, it stung because it was true, and it was because I know this about myself. Like I know that this is a behavior that I have that I've really needed to work on. And I had used an excuse of not working on it. You know, like, okay, I've like I said, I healed for a long time in isolation. I wasn't ready to do it, but you called me out and you challenged me. And I felt a lot of shame the next day with the way that I reacted towards you because I was like, golly, that was really hard. Do you have the message? Can you pull the message up or did you save it?

SPEAKER_00:

I've got it somewhere. Yeah. I can I think I've I think I actually did save it. Let me see if I can find it.

SPEAKER_05:

Because I I had to, I was really mad whenever he said something. And I was like, I just went to bed after that because I didn't want to say anything. I didn't want to react too much. Because I did I did react, but I didn't want to be like super reactive. I was like, I just I'm gonna go to sleep.

SPEAKER_00:

In in the moment, it was wild. Like I felt like how much you must have felt for all these years.

SPEAKER_05:

You said that too.

SPEAKER_00:

Because I was like, you are straight gaslighting me right now.

SPEAKER_05:

No, that's okay. Hold on. You said that I didn't like introduce myself, you didn't see me. I did talk to people, I did shake hands, I did do that. So I wasn't gaslighting.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. I'm sorry, I didn't see that. Yes, exactly. Um, it it felt very like this. Must be how you felt all these years. When you bring up a normal, reasonable concern and you're really sweet about it, and you get this like anger retort. But anyway, the next day, uh the next morning, um she woke up and sent me this message. She said, she she put like these four points. She said, one, thank you for calling me out on my bullshit and for challenging me. Two, the truth hurts, but it sets you free. That's something we always say is that the truth will set you free, but at first it's gonna piss you off. Yeah. That's true. You said point three, I'm sorry for handling it like a child. Point four, I will work on all the things. I had a ton of process, I I had to process a ton of emotions since last night. Shame, catastrophizing, sadness, anxiety, and acceptance. I know what it needs to be done to get out of my comfort zone. I love you. And I've I responded like, I love you too. I understand we're human, we're gonna make mistakes.

SPEAKER_05:

And like And you know that I'm going to do something about it. Absolutely. You know that I'm going to actually push myself to change because 100%. I've done that our almost entire relationship. You bring something up to me, you challenge me, and I'm going to be honest and try to fix it. When the tables are turned and active addiction, that doesn't necessarily happen. You know, it's like the other person's not going to take that. They're going to react like I did and maybe say something similar to that, but the actions are not going to be backed up.

SPEAKER_00:

I love how we've gotten derailed here on the subject of the episode because I think this is important nonetheless. Something I hear all the time from people who struggle with addiction is they they fear giving too much because they don't feel like it's going to come back. Like a lot of people have this very transactional nature about relationships where like I've made a massive amount of changes to myself. And it takes a lot. That's what it took because I was so far gone. I had to make so many changes. But I've never talked to anyone who didn't have something to say about their spouse. Well, but she does this, she gets mad in traffic and freaks out all the time. She's short with me. She gives me this ugly look when I do this, and she's better work on those things. She's got to work on that stuff. And my my point is always hey, we're gonna tackle the big problems first, okay? Those are small problems. There are big problems, there are small problems, okay? These things are not detrimental to the ongoing relationship, these things aren't detrimental to your children. These are uh nuisances to you, no doubt. Your feelings are valid. And my guess would be she will work on these things, but we've got to address some major stuff first. Yeah, but shut up with all that. She will get to it, okay. I want people to know that if you're in recovery listening to this, like it's a two-way street. It is a two-way street, but your shit's way worse. Yeah, it's way worse. Let's be real. Yeah, y'all, it's way worse. We need to address these vital issues first before that you can even have safety to have a conversation like Paige and I just did.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Because spouses are gonna feel very defensive, yeah, because they've been had their ass kicked for so long over this kind of stuff. It's like, you have to give me this. I had to give first. That's fine. What's the harm in that? Like, what's the worst thing that hurts there? Your ego? Yeah. Is that what you're afraid to get hurt? Is your ego if you go first without a guarantee that they're gonna return the favor? Well, let me tell you what, if they're invested enough in the relationship that you're a listener, they are going to make changes when changes need to be made. But we're talking about small stuff, guys. We're talking about the way that she presented herself to a public group for the sake of, hey, let's let when listeners show up, let's not let them think that you're like angry or something. Because you're the sweetest person ever.

SPEAKER_05:

I'm just really awkward.

SPEAKER_00:

And that's that's okay. And so, but I had to challenge that little part of you that's very personal and it very much hurt. And you were a little upset about it, but what I got back was the same things I've done for you for all these years, which is that hurt. I understand, I hear you, I will make changes as you were right. That's what we do for each other, yeah, and that's how it works. Right. I went first. Why wouldn't I have? Right. So I just want people to know that like this is how a healthy relationship works exactly eventually. Yeah, but back to the behaviors, yes, because that was a behavior in in the absence of a substance.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, behaviors stick around, and a lot of these behaviors are learned and they're really ingrained, and a lot of these have nothing to do with the actual substance itself, nothing to do. So focus on just the behavior. How is the behavior affecting you, your relationships, your safety, the the role model that children have? Yes. Whole other topic that we're gonna get into eventually.

SPEAKER_05:

Yes, yes. Yeah, so I I kind of let's get back to I want to talk about certain examples of how people can shift their mindset on focusing on the behaviors instead of the substances. So let's say that your spouse spends an excessive amount of money on alcohol or drugs, and you may say, okay, he's an alcoholic, he's sick, his disease makes him do crazy things. While this is accurate, it doesn't excuse the fact that they are spending money you don't have. It impacts you and your children, and this is where we look at the behavior instead of the alcohol. Because if we keep excusing that behavior on the substance, it's gonna keep happening. It's gonna keep happening. If you're able to say, no, that behavior is actually affecting me, you can look at it more clearly, in my opinion. I think it's easier instead of the the blaming it on the substance because then you're like, okay, this really does go against my values. I do need to do something about this.

SPEAKER_00:

A lot of people fall into the compassion trap. Yes. And that's easy to do.

SPEAKER_05:

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00:

It is easy to do. There's so much information about addiction, and it ranges from they are horrible people, they're scumbags, leave them, to they are very hurt. They're abused people, they are traumatized people, they are sick people, give them compassion and as much love as you can. And those are like the those are kind of the two extremes that you get.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, we go to the middle ground.

SPEAKER_00:

And there's so much information. It's like, well, where do you, what do you listen to? Like what's what's right, what's wrong?

SPEAKER_05:

It's black and white right there. You find the middle ground, you find the gray area. Like for you, I knew why you had the behaviors you had. I knew why you were the way you were, but it didn't excuse it. Like I could have compassion for those be like why you did what you did, but I'm still gonna challenge you because you can heal from that. You learn from that, you grow from that, you get better from that, you can change your behaviors. It doesn't excuse it. Just like I was harmed in our relationship, I had to it was my responsibility to heal from that. It was my responsibility to deal with my trauma, not make it an excuse to treat people like crap.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's it's it's insanity at times when you get caught in that compassion trap. And it's because you can look at someone and know their past like you know mine. Like I didn't if if I told you, and we'll get into this in another episode, but just general background, I was I I grew up around addiction and I didn't have the greatest home life. And that did it contribute? You absolutely it contributed to the way I the the way I ended up as an active addict out there. It yeah, and you could look at that and say, like, none of that was his fault. Like that's that's horrible that that happened. Yeah, that these these events led him to where he is today. But the fact of the matter is, is that I'm I was like 30 years old, blowing through all of our money, lying about everything, treating you horribly, speaking to you with no respect.

SPEAKER_05:

You weren't an equal partner. It's whenever your behaviors from all of that started to impact me, is when I started making changes. And some people might think, oh, that's like selfish. You're only thinking about yourself. You know, what about him? He's the one suffering, he's the one who's sick, he's the one who has a problem. No, your behaviors affected me. It impacted me. That's not selfish, that's healthy.

SPEAKER_00:

I think so too.

SPEAKER_05:

It's freaking healthy for me to say, no, I'm not going to tolerate that. This is not acceptable behavior. I don't want this in my life. I don't want it for my children, I don't want it for my grandchildren. Like, it stops with me. It stops here and now. That's not a bad place to be.

SPEAKER_00:

No, it's not a bad place to be. But don't fall too far into the compassion trap. You can hold two thoughts at once. We're really big on that.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes, I agree.

SPEAKER_00:

Hold two thoughts at the same time. And Paige very much understood where some of this was coming from, but also without having a lot of the like the I guess the background on what I was actually doing. You were just like, you're just an a-hole. Like you thought you just married an asshole. Right. I remember you saying that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Like, I didn't even know you were an addict, I thought you were just an asshole.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

But you're still an asshole.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Even you're just an addict asshole.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

It didn't excuse it.

SPEAKER_05:

And that affects me. It doesn't excuse the behavior.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. That's a great example.

SPEAKER_05:

Because everybody can change their behaviors. We can all become better people. Just like that incident we just talked about. I used that as fuel. The shame that I had from that, I use it as fuel to change my behaviors to become a better person. Addicts are no different. You just have to remove the substance first before you can get to that point, which might be difficult, but it's a choice. You can recover and change and change your behaviors.

SPEAKER_00:

I think that and I maybe I'm naive about this, but I think that recovery is possible for everybody. I really do. I think that there's a path that exists for everybody. Does that path look the same for everybody? Hell no. No. No, no, but there's a path that exists. Now, to what degree are you willing to challenge your previously held beliefs and ideas and do the work necessary? That's where the rubber meets the road, and that's where we start to see this huge difference in people that try recovery and those that are successful at it. We can talk about all the reasons why in another time, but I believe that it's possible for everyone. I believe that people can change. I believe in the human capacity of change and of learning and of stretching.

SPEAKER_05:

They have to really want it. I wouldn't, I I don't think I would have waited around for you forever to change.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm glad you did.

SPEAKER_05:

If your behaviors didn't, you know, they they if they were still impacting me, I was gonna keep challenging you or you know, build myself up to make decisions that I needed to do.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And what what are we about to get into? Because I was gonna go through some of the behaviors.

SPEAKER_05:

No, I've still got some examples I wanted to go through real quick so for people to understand. Like, I'm just breaking it down. So let's just say that your spouse lies about something because we know that lying is huge in these relationships. Um, and you may say, like, they're honest when they're sober, but when they get drunk, the lies keep coming, or when they use the lie, the lies keep coming. This might be really hard to hear, um, but it also might validate you as well. But even during their sober moments, they're lying.

SPEAKER_00:

It's not a switch you just turn on.

SPEAKER_05:

It's not a switch. Like the lying is a behavior that's not excused because they were drunk or high. Like it betrays your trust. It will impact your mental health. And it's not a healthy relationship if lying is involved. But when they're sober and they're saying things to you, there's a lot of manipulation that goes through that. Like in between the the sober day and the drinking at night. Like, even like we'll we'll say, you know, communicate with them when they're sober, you're still not gonna get through to them because they're not gonna hear you. They're still in that that mode.

SPEAKER_00:

Addiction doesn't stop just when the substance is absent. And we've talked about this to some degree, but think of the addiction as it is it is attached to them, okay? It's like this thing attached to their shoulder, and it's more prevalent and it's more obvious, and it's more it's just more disgusting to you whenever they're actively drinking or taking a drug.

SPEAKER_04:

Because it's amplified, it's amplified.

SPEAKER_00:

These behaviors are amplified, right? Inhibitions are lowered, people say ridiculous things, they act in crazy ways that are out of character, but the addiction is still there, and lying is a behavior that accompanies it, but is not addiction doesn't cause lying. And you think about it, if I'm not using right now, but I drink every single day, I'm an alcoholic, I will lie to get back to keep the addiction going. Yeah. To keep that going. So lies take place all the time throughout the day.

SPEAKER_05:

There's the love bombing, there's the um manipulation that goes on that you know is part of of lying. Like I remember whenever you were in active addiction or whatnot, like you would like write really long love bomb paragraphs, texts, or whatever. And I'm like, this is just kind of weird because in healthy relationships, it doesn't go to that extreme. Like we'll tell each other that we love each other and you know we appreciate each other, but it's not like this whole, like, oh, you're the best thing for me, you're the best person in my life. You know, with the love bombing, that's like really ex extensive. Like, that's I don't want to say it's a lie, but it is making something bigger than it really is to keep keep it going. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00:

No, yeah. I mean, it addiction is it's marked by these extremes. Yes. Because go back in your messages 10 messages back, and what do you have? You have someone calling you the worst names ever, right?

SPEAKER_04:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Saying horrible things about you and your friends and your family and the type of mother you are and all kinds of sick stuff. And then you get this other crazy extreme. So which is it? It's all the same person. Yeah. That's what I I've tried to get people to understand. It's like this is the same person.

SPEAKER_05:

It's really difficult. That that goes, we we try to explain that kind of like with the whole behaviors uh versus substance thing. It's kind of hard to explain in a way, but we're trying to it goes hand in hand with what you just said.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and lying, man, it is like I'm gonna take a quick moment quickly here on the harmful effects. The harmful effects of lying. Like lying, lying is detrimental to a relationship. It's also it can be detrimental to your mental health. Um, again, like I will say this every time just about every episode. Like, we are not licensed counselors, we do not diagnose people, we do not provide, we do not pathologize anything, like we are just people who've been there before and read a lot about this stuff and experienced a lot of it through the experiences, the journeys of other people as well. Yeah, been around this deal for uh quite a quite some time. But some of the harmful effects of lying, it can cause erosion of trust. Trust is the foundation for any relationship of meaning, period. Doesn't matter if it's a business relationship, doesn't matter if it's just a general friendship, doesn't matter if it's a relationship you have with things or you aren't even necessarily directly related to, a relationship with the government. Like you could argue that you know trust is required in order for that to that to run. Trust with the business, you're gonna go somewhere and you're gonna get what you ordered. Trust is it is inherent in any healthy relationship. Lying erodes trust. So it will repeated lies will destroy trust in relationships, whether it's personal, professional, it's foundational for healthy interactions, and it will cause massive difficulties if it goes on. Yeah, causes emotional distress. So being lied to can cause feelings of betrayal, anger, sadness, confusion. And these contribute to a range of mental health issues over time. It causes self-doubt in somebody. Consistent deception can lead individuals to question their judgment and perception of reality, leading to self-doubt and lack of confidence.

SPEAKER_05:

When we start um we talk about the loss of self. Yeah, and we don't trust our instincts.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, we talk about the loss of self. This is what it does. It makes relationships break down. I think that's pretty obvious, but causes massive rips in relationships. Uh, and it can actually cause behavioral changes in people who were lied to as they become more suspicious, paranoid, overly cautious, and it impacts their behaviors with others. I mean, you start to really foundationally change the way that someone's mind works. I mean, I mean, you you make people just generally negative about the world because they've been lied to over and over and over. Yeah. Um, there are some potential disorders and diagnosis. These just come in general, right? These aren't guaranteed by any means, but um I mean, I had almost every one of those. Post-traumatic stress disorder, anxiety disorders, depressive disorders, um, paranoid personality disorders. So that one, that one's pretty interesting. Check that one out. CPD.

SPEAKER_05:

Lying can lead individuals to develop pervasive distrust and suspicion of others.

SPEAKER_00:

That's kind of what we talked about earlier. Yep. Um, yeah, I mean it's scary, but uh borderline personality, while not caused solely by lying, it can be exacerbated by it due to the consistent deception. Um CPT CPTSD, trust issues, attachment disorders, like lying is possibly the most damaging behavior. And we toss out lies as addicts and alcoholists like they are nothing. Yeah, it's like Oprah giving away a car. Here, you get a car, you get a car, you get a lie, you get a lie.

SPEAKER_05:

It's like you're you're it's like you're programmed to do it or something. And then even whenever you remove the substance and you go to treatment, some people still continue to lie. That's gonna affect you.

SPEAKER_00:

It will, absolutely.

SPEAKER_05:

The lies, the effing lies.

SPEAKER_00:

I just like lying is it's very natural in in many ways. Like children, I was reading a study on this the other day. Like, children generally around kindergarten age can figure out that they can learn, they can lie, they can just not be honest about something to so they don't get in trouble, so they don't so they stay out of trouble. Okay, and for many of us, we're taught you don't do that. Like our kids, they'll do this. Caught our kid in a lie today.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, and we we talk about the honesty and how important honesty is and how important trust is. But it's a natural thing that many people do. I don't want anyone to think that like someone who lies is just terrible. Everyone's lying.

SPEAKER_05:

Everyone lies at some point, yes.

SPEAKER_01:

How like have you ever had a friend with kids?

SPEAKER_00:

Have you ever had a friend that got their hair colored and they asked you, What do you think about new hair? And you were like, Oh, I love it. And you thought, really, like that doesn't look very good.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, but it's not affecting your your But it's a lie nonetheless. Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Lying is natural to us. Sometimes we do it for good reasons, oftentimes for bad reasons. But when it comes to addiction, we're often doing it to just to keep the addiction alive. It becomes a self-preservation in many ways. Like, I I can't not do this, I have to do this, so I have to lie. And then you do it enough times, it becomes second nature, it just becomes an operating part of your personality. It's like someone installed software on you and you just use it all the time. Yeah, it be you you just because you do it so much when you're lying to people about these little things. You start to think, like, what's the harm? Like, I'm not really doing anything to hurt anybody, like I'm just drinking. Like, what's the big deal? You start to rationalize all this stuff, your brain gets really creative about how you do that. And before you know it, you're just being dishonest about all kinds of stuff, whether it's exaggerating, telling white lies, or like really meaningful lies about no, I didn't cheat on you when you know you did. I mean, really important things, but it it sort of ramps up over time. It starts with no, I didn't take a cookie out of the cookie jar, and it ends up with these massive things. The more you do it, the more natural it becomes to somebody. And it sort of becomes like a way of programming for people. Yeah, but it's massively damaging to relationships. But lying is probably the most damaging and it's the most common that we see for people, even in recovery. This is harmful. You could be removed from the substance, you could be sober for two, three years, and you lie about something, your spouse will react as if they are watching you drink just like you did whenever things were really bad, whenever it was active and you lied about it, they caught you in a lie. Feels exactly the same to a spouse.

SPEAKER_03:

Yep.

SPEAKER_00:

Feels exactly the same. Yep. These behaviors have to be addressed. So when everyone's like substance, substance, substance, I'm gonna breathe allies them, I'm gonna drug test them. You can do those things, but what about the lies? Yeah, what about the lies? You can hold someone accountable all you want, but until you start to reprogram that in them and their need to lie when they don't even realize they're lying. Like we've heard of pathological liars, right?

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, they'll believe their own lies.

SPEAKER_00:

Like lying is a disease where it's like they've created an alternate reality they live in where these lies are real. Narcissists do this.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, this is this is damaging stuff. Like you cannot be in a relationship with these people.

SPEAKER_05:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

It's not possible. Yes, it's not.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, the trust is not gonna be there. And like you said, like every relationship is built on trust. And if there's lying, then that's just it's unhealthy for all involved. So why you gotta focus on those behaviors and not make it an excuse that oh, they're just lying because they need to keep their addiction going. Okay, that could be true, but are we gonna allow it? No, you don't tolerate it because it is gonna harm you.

SPEAKER_00:

You don't tolerate it. No, that's what Paige is saying. Like someone can have Are there reasons for lying valid based on what we know about addiction? Yeah, but does that matter? They're harming you.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_00:

Doesn't matter. Like the like the nature of fire is such that it's hot and it will burn you. Okay. Do you touch fire?

SPEAKER_05:

No.

SPEAKER_00:

No, why?

SPEAKER_05:

Because it will hurt me.

SPEAKER_00:

But fire's hot. It's it's just it's just doing its thing. It's natural, it's hot.

SPEAKER_05:

You still have to protect yourself from it.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. Think of it that way.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah. Okay, so here was another example. Is like, um what if your spouse is only angry when they drink? So you may say that it's alcohol, they're so sweet when they're sober. And like we said before, alcohol might amplify the behavior, but the anger will come out during sobriety as well, unless they learn how to cope and manage their anger in a healthy way. Because their anger does impact you. That is the behavior, not the substance. And we've seen there's many people I've heard where their partners will stop using or stop drinking and they're angry. Like they are just angry.

SPEAKER_00:

I was. Yeah. Remember that time I tried to I tried to quit cold turkey, like um I think like four or five months before I checked into treatment. I and it was it was that Christmas before.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

I was as irritable as people get about everything because you didn't learn how to manage your anger.

SPEAKER_00:

I had all this, all like all this um information coming in, and I didn't have any way to categorize it. I didn't have any outlets for it, I didn't know what to do with it, and it was just overwhelming, and the result was anger. But I was always angry. You know, like this is like something in me, and then the substance just exacerbated it. Right. Just made it worse.

SPEAKER_05:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Um let's talk about some of the other behaviors because you talked about anger.

SPEAKER_05:

You talked about anger lies and then like spending excessive money.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, so here's some other things that you may have picked up on that have nothing to do with the substance itself. So we are very big. If you ever with someone who's an active addiction, focus on the behavior, stop looking at the substance. Stop obsessing over the fact that once you remove the substance, everything is cured. In order to protect yourself, in order to become empowered and really educated about this stuff, this is crucial. This is important for you to understand that it's not just the substance. It is not just the substance. It's not. It's not. Other behaviors will linger. Some will come to the surface that you didn't even realize were there. Some of these are like compulsive behaviors. Um, even after the substance is removed, a lot of people engage in compulsive behaviors. So it's gambling, overeating, excessive shopping, sex or porn or other big ones. Anything to make you feel good, anything to drive that that little or to to to it's that little scratch that you've got.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, isn't it like a dopamine kick?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. So I gained 70 plus pounds my first year sober.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I still had compulsive behaviors.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

I removed the substance and it was still there. I was eating candy like you wouldn't believe. I had a drawer, my bottom drawer, my nightstand, you could open it and it would barely open. It was just full of candy wrappers.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Full of them. Um, avoidance. Addicts often use substances to avoid dealing with emotional pain or stress. So without the substance, they will oftentimes continue to avoid facing their problems directly. They become withdrawn. They're not talking to you. You thought when then when they got sober, you would get, you know, know it from the notebook. Right. Like, oh, he's gonna talk to me, he's gonna care about me, he's gonna be interested in our lives and ask about the kids. No, he doesn't know how. These behaviors are just there. Yeah. Substance removed, they're still there. Manipulation. Many people with addiction develop manipulative behaviors to obtain their substance or to avoid consequences. This behavior persists even after the substance use stops. Yes. Manipulation is another very big one. Yes. Lying about all kinds of weird stuff. Sometimes it's around substances, sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's I don't want to get caught in this lie, so I'm gonna work this deal so it doesn't look like I was up to no good when I really was. And it's just stuff continues. Dishonesty, once again, just lying. Um, isolation, kind of back to the avoidance. Um, but attitudes, even attitudes like denial, entitlement, negative thinking, blame, the instant gratification. We talked about that, desire for just that immediate reward.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, delayed discounting is very difficult to do in people who have active addiction. And that persists. That persists. Like a lot of people, when they get sober, start to spend money like you wouldn't believe. Like they are not thinking about long-term effect of not saving money or investing in something. They're just gonna do what they want. They need that, they need that fix. That's a behavior that exists without the substance. Um, low self-esteem often continues. This is true for me. Um, cognitive distortions, true for me. Identity issues. Um, a new sober identity is a big part in being comfortable being sober. Yeah. People that struggle with that, that are just dry or haven't quite come to an understanding that the pattern that, hey, you know how every time you drink, shit falls apart, will continue until you decide not to drink anymore. That's a tough thing to tough realization. A lot of people stop the substance, but they keep doing this, and you feel all the effects of it as a spouse.

SPEAKER_05:

Oh, that's what I was gonna ask. It's like all of these things that are happening, are these truly affecting us? Yes. Deep down they are because of the behaviors.

SPEAKER_00:

We're talking about your most intimate relationship. We're not talking about your freaking neighbor four doors down.

SPEAKER_05:

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00:

This is your most intimate relationship is your life partner. Right. This is the person that you have decided to have children with in many cases, that you have tied your name to legally. So whether or not, like what whatever marriage means to you, there's still a a law c that governs that contract. Like, this is a very important relationship. Right. And that these things will affect you in more ways than one. If it's not just emotionally, it could be financially.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, it it's going to affect you deeply.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

These behaviors, all these things will affect you. This is a person that you're around all the time. You're responsible for raising children with these people. I mean, this is this is big stuff.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah. And I know people might ask, okay, so how do I, you know, address this with my partner and let them know that it's the behaviors and not the addiction or the the substance that's bothering me. Um, I mean, to be real, like you can't trying to voice your concerns just doesn't typically work. Um, trying to get them to see your point of view and how they're impacting you doesn't work. Um we have to change who how we react and how we are and what we say. So we can set boundaries based on the behaviors and not the substances. So I encourage people that I work with. Like, there's a lot of people who will say, Okay, I'm not gonna be around you when you drink. Okay, I understand starting small and doing something like that, but that's still focusing on the substance. How about you don't want to be around somebody who um disrespects you or yells at you? And this could be while they're drinking or when they're not drinking. You can use your I feel statements and say, I feel uncomfortable and unloved when you yell at me. If you continue to yell at me, I will remove myself from the home.

SPEAKER_00:

You're gonna know the feeling. You're gonna know what what what Paige is talking about here because when they're not drinking and they do it, it's gonna feel exactly the same. It's like, oh, they're being that person right now. Like, oh my God, I hate when they do this thing. And it's not just the substance, but acknowledge that. Acknowledge that it's behavior. It's it's that behavior from that person that's really harming you.

SPEAKER_05:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

It's not the drink.

SPEAKER_05:

Right. But even when they are drinking and they do these things, just focus on the behavior because that's what's truly impacting you. It's not the fact that they drink, it's the fact that they are yelling at you, disrespecting you, calling you names. You know, that's that that is what is harming you. Focus on that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, love bombing is another one too. Like we talked about love bombing a little bit, but alcoholics do this thing or addicts do this thing a lot. Um, people that struggle with substances, I should just say. Um, it's like feigning helplessness, where it's like they act incapable to elicit help or sympathy from other people. Like you can I've I've read text messages from people, and someone will like you're suggesting, like essentially, like it's gonna be very difficult to communicate this. I've seen people try it. Yeah, I've yet to see someone succeed, but I've seen many try, yeah, some better than others. But this person did a really good job at just sticking to the facts, very compassionate, very understanding about it. Was like, hey, when you do this, this is how I feel, and this hurts. And like for you to uh you know, work on these things, and we'll challenge you to to focus on that. It was very, very well thought out. It's like kind of how I presented to you.

SPEAKER_01:

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00:

And what they got back was all they heard from that, the addicted person, was they are a sorry piece of shit, good for nothing human. And I'm like, you don't really believe that. But I know a lot of people that say these things to elicit sympathy from other people. Yeah. It's another form of manipulation. Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_05:

Like love bombing is right, and they might actually feel that way, but I to some degree. But I don't think I I think it's an impulsive reaction, and it's still not an acceptable reaction. Just like that's how I felt whenever we had the discussion, but I didn't react that way. I reacted in a way that was obviously not the best reaction, but then I went to sleep and I was like, I owned it and I figured it out. These people don't do that, they're gonna go down this like whole ordeal of excuse me, of what is it, the Darvo type thing. Like they're gonna start doing that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I I want to make something else clear. Uh, you've probably, if you're listening, have received a text like Paige sent me, like, thank you for calling me out. I appreciate you for that. Followed by no action.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

This was followed by action. Yes. I know and I trust 100% that you think about this pretty regularly. And you you you challenge yourself in moments, and in your own way, you're beginning to come out of your shell a little bit and do all those things. Like, I I know this about you. Yes, I see it. Yeah, there's action. A lot of people can say these things, but there's no action.

SPEAKER_05:

There's no action.

SPEAKER_00:

That's massive. It's all just fluffy. It's just words, man.

SPEAKER_05:

It's all words.

SPEAKER_00:

Just words.

SPEAKER_05:

Yep.

SPEAKER_00:

How does that feel? That's a behavior. How does that affect you? That's massive. That that erodes trust. Yeah. Alright, what's next? That's all I got on that. No way.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, way.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay.

SPEAKER_05:

Um unless you wanted to add something.

SPEAKER_00:

I can get to some of the ways, because I mean, I think for some people, it's hard to put your finger on like what they're doing.

SPEAKER_05:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Like what someone's doing. Like, um, like how how people in active addiction oftentimes manipulate gaslight or invalidate. And it has nothing to do with the substance itself. And we can talk about some of what's going on inside the brain that that causes this stuff. Because like it's not lost on us that addiction is a disease. Like, I know, I know, I know, but I don't care.

SPEAKER_04:

It's not an excuse.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't care.

SPEAKER_04:

There's treatment.

SPEAKER_00:

I know, like, I've been one. I am one. Like, I'm very aware that addiction is a disease, but I'm also very aware of what it takes to move past these things. I'm very aware that it's possible to move past these things. Just stopping and saying, I have a disease, you have to for you just have to deal with this is ridiculous. That's absurd. It's a disease with treatment. Like there are ways.

SPEAKER_05:

Exactly. It's an excuse to keep doing what you're doing because it's what's comfortable for you instead of getting out of your comfort zone and figuring out why the hell you're doing what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00:

So here's some of the ways that addicts will manipulate. So Darvo is one that we talked about. Yep. And Darvo is an acronym, and it's deny, attack, reverse, victim, and offender. This, we actually did a TikTok over this, and people think I'm a maniac, and that and I got roasted by a lot of people.

SPEAKER_04:

That's okay.

SPEAKER_00:

We were talking about how I used to um gas uh guilt trip. Guilt trip, guilt trip. And that's what that's what Darvo is. It's a it's a form of gaslighting where when you bring up something, something completely normal and rational, I will deny or deflect. That's the D by saying, No, I didn't do that, or I will deflect back and say, Let's talk about your problems. And this I've seen these in text message exchanges all the time for me.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And then you attack. So I deny or deflect, then I attack you and come after you. Now we're not talking about the real problem. We're talking about something else. I'm getting you off of this. And then you reverse victim and offender. So you're the victim. Let's not forget that. You are the victim. I'm making myself the victim now.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Darvo is a big one. And that's part of manipulation, but that's also part of the feigning helplessness that a lot of addicts will do. It's when I when when I drop to the ground and start crying and telling you how awful I am, part of that is performative. I believe that wholeheartedly because I did the same thing. I'm not saying everyone does that. I know there's some people out there with extremely low self-esteem and they're really struggling. And I know that, and I I have compassion for that, but I know that part of that is also that is not how adults act. And that is very much a performance. Right. That is a performance.

SPEAKER_05:

I mean, I've felt that way before.

SPEAKER_00:

I've everyone's felt that way.

SPEAKER_05:

But I don't put it on you. I know that it's something within me that I have to work on. That means that it's something that I need to change. I can't blame you for it. Like we all have those feelings. That's called, I mean, that's just emotional maturity.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. That's the real issue underlying all of this. Yes. All of this is about emotional maturity.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, it's like you there's a lot of stunted growth. And that's what we took. If we go back to like the kids, kids lie, right? I think that a lot of addicts they start using it stunts their growth or whatnot, and they just don't grow up. They're still stuck in that phase of being able to lie and not having consequences. They still have the mind of a child.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I had a child brain.

SPEAKER_05:

Yes, you did.

SPEAKER_00:

Like 17-year-old kid brain. Right.

SPEAKER_04:

When you got sober. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Like that's how I felt. I remember when coming out of treatment and everything else, and I was like, I'm behind. Like, I'm so far behind. Like, I would hear adults have conversations about things I never paid attention to before. And I feel so left out. Like, oh my God, I'm so far behind. And at first, it's like, oh my God, am I ever gonna come out of this? But then there's another part of me that was stronger that was like, I will do whatever it takes. And I've been given a course forward, you know, through IOPs and all kinds of stuff. And it's like, do this and you're gonna be okay. And I just stuck with it. And it it works. Like I'm my age now. I think I'm my age at least.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Now, yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

I think I'm caught up. I do, yeah. I agree.

SPEAKER_00:

But anyway, uh another way playing the victim. We we talked about that guilt tripping, which we were just discussing in that clip. Yep. If you haven't seen it on TikTok, it's the one with like a bunch of views. Um, charm and flattery. Oh man, this is one too. The cringe I see. The girls, you know it. You know, you know this. I know you know it. I I see this in messages all the time. I'm like, there's no way that that guy thought that that was like a a normal response to that.

SPEAKER_05:

You know, though, I've I've I've heard some wheelies um miss that part.

SPEAKER_00:

The charm and flattery. It's fake though.

SPEAKER_05:

That's what I and I I hate to say that out loud, but I think that's true. I think it is, I think it is fake. Like, there's what we were talking about earlier is that we don't do that in our healthy relationships.

SPEAKER_00:

We still like we still do I I think daily I look at you and tell you, like, you are gorgeous.

SPEAKER_05:

Right, but you don't do it in a way that's like it's not fake and phony and cringy. Right.

SPEAKER_00:

It's not like you're trying to get something, it's like you're being You know when kids butter you up before they're gonna ask you to go sleep at a friend's house or something like that?

SPEAKER_05:

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, that's what it is. They're buttering, they're buttering you up, yes, and there's a difference between that and someone sincerely giving you a compliment about something. There's a difference, yeah. Charm and flattery are manipulative techniques, yeah. Um or Riz, as the kids call it.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, I just it just sucks. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh lying boat by omission is another manipulative technique that a lot of people will use and continue well into sobriety. Lying by omission, just not saying something, withholding important information to manipulate perceptions and decisions. It's a big one. Uh gaslighting, denying reality. Still takes place. I did this sober, y'all.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Sober. I did this. Um, contradicting, contradicting other people's statements to create confusion. Just running the old like smoke grenade play. Like, if I can just confuse you enough, then you'll just give up. Just running you through. You ever seen that meme of Charlie from It's Always Sunny with all the like the strings on the board, and he's like looking all crazy?

SPEAKER_04:

No.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, you've not seen that meme? Uh-uh. That's what this one's like, though. That's like the smoke screen. Uh, minimizing feelings and projecting are also things that stick around. These are behaviors that are harmful. These take place even in the absence of substance. Dismissiveness. So when we talk about invalidation, this is a sort of like a slightly it's a culmination of a lot of things.

SPEAKER_05:

But you're talking about stuff like with dry drunken stuff. This isn't necessarily what this episode is about. Like this is about how the behaviors are affecting you. And these things like affecting the other person, substance or not, it it's the same thing.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay.

SPEAKER_05:

Right? I or no?

SPEAKER_00:

I don't I must not be hitting the point then. These are things that are they're doing to you with or without the substance that are affecting you. Okay. I'm just trying to give some more examples of them. Right. Because we covered money, we covered Yes, lying, anger. Right, but like some more of these things. Okay. Like these things aren't just like front page news. Like everyone knows what a lie is, but what does a lie mean? We're talking about gaslighting, Darvo, manipulation.

SPEAKER_05:

Right, right. This is that a lot of the subs. Yeah, this is invalidation. Is this just part of their is this just part of their their behavior? Yeah. It's just their personality.

SPEAKER_00:

Something very common is invalidation.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Invalidating someone's feelings, whether there's dismissive, just brushing off your concerns, like that's not important. That's harmful to you. That is harmful. We talk about the loss of self.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Like we talk about the loss of self and the loss of um like your your ability to trust yourself and your gut instincts. This is where that comes from. From someone dismissing you, from someone belittling you, from someone mocking you or being sarcastic about everything you say, or someone ignoring you. These things are harmful. These are harmful behaviors that you need to be on the lookout for. Yeah. So we talk about some of the we talk about addiction, and I just want to spend just a moment here to talk about some of the Paige loves this part. Some of the neuroscience.

SPEAKER_05:

I don't want this to be an excuse as to why people beh or treat our are why their behavior is like that. Like I don't want you to think that it's acceptable behavior because of why they do these things.

SPEAKER_00:

I think that's an excellent preface to all this.

SPEAKER_05:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

I think that's perfect. Thank you for saying that too. But we do have people that are people that are in recovery that listen.

SPEAKER_05:

And so um Okay, that's a good point.

SPEAKER_00:

I do want people to know that like um like these things can be fixed, like these things can be worked on. The brain is malleable, the brain is plastic, like neuroplasticity, right? It can be changed.

SPEAKER_05:

Our behaviors can change. I think it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_00:

But these things do not excuse the behaviors that your spouse is feeling. Right. These things do not excuse these things at all. Just trying to give some um, I guess, some context, like what's happening inside someone's brain. Because a lot of times we get these posts that are like, I don't understand. I don't understand. Like, I want you to understand that this is probably what's happening, but I also want you to understand You can't understand. But I also want you to understand that behavior is unacceptable. You should not tolerate it under any circumstances.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Period. Right. We talk about in the beginning when we open this about having compassion for someone who's like struggling, but also not tolerating the behaviors. Yeah. So we talk about the struggle. This is part of that. We just talked a lot about the behaviors that you should never tolerate. When we talked about invalidating, when we talked about gaslighting, we talked about manipulation, we talked about all these things, the the attitudes, the behaviors, all that crap.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Is this who they are. This is this is who that person is presenting themselves to you. This has nothing to do with the substance itself. These things exist even in the absence of it. The substance just makes these worse.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Part of what's going on in someone's brain, we talked about the prefrontal cortex. This is the part of the brain that is responsible for decision making. It is damaged in many people. Addiction damages this part of the brain. Um impulse control is can is involved in the prefrontal cortex, decision making, understanding the consequences of actions. Addiction compares impairs these things. Uh, the reward system sensitive since this is a hard one to say.

SPEAKER_05:

Sensitization.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_05:

I got one right.

SPEAKER_00:

Brain's reward system, so it involves the uh mesolimbic pathways and neurotransmitter dopamine. We all know dopamine, um, becomes highly sensitized during addiction. And that results in this ongoing drive to seek immediate rewards or relief at the even at the expense of others, and it reinforces manipulative behaviors. These things take place with or without the substance. This is what has happened to the brain in addiction.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So again, like just getting them to stop drinking, do you think they're actually gonna fix this stuff? That's the question you should ask yourself.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Would they ever stop drinking? Would they ever go to therapy to rewire their brain? Like, that's more important to ask yourself. Yeah, the type of person that would do that, if If not, then then it should make your decision easier. Right. I would think. Yeah. Um, emotional regulation deficits. I know all about this one. So addiction makes it really hard to manage emotions because you're never dealing with any of them.

SPEAKER_05:

Right. You don't have to everyone. You're not dealing with the beginning to the end.

SPEAKER_00:

Just when you and just like me, whenever I stopped using the substance, I was just incredibly irritable and shitty all the time. I was mad. I was manipulative. I was invalidating. I was a horrible husband. Sober man. Sober. I was awful. The behaviors at that point are what you were focused on. You were not worried that my brain was having trouble getting back to normal. And especially when I was doing nothing to fix it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

It wasn't until I started to take honest and earnest action to work on this stuff that you developed the patience to say, okay, I'll stick around and see what happens next. He's working on it. He's actually doing something. He's working his ass off on it every single day. Then you gave me some patience, but you were you were ready to pack stuff and leave. And many people have already left and they're wondering, did I make the right decision? If they're not fixing these things, then you absolutely damn right you did.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Um the amygdala. So the amygdala, which is involved in processing emotions, becomes overactive in people in addiction. Uh, it leads to heightened emotional responses. That's this whole black or white extremes, defensive behaviors like gaslighting or invalidating whenever you feel threatened, um, habituated behavioral patterns. So over time, we talked about this manipulation, lying, deceit, it becomes a habit. A habit. Yeah. The brain reinforces it through neural pathways. And breaking it requires conscious effort and behavioral therapy to rewire the brain. If you have a sober spouse who has jumped your ass for getting mad at them because they were lying about smoking or they were lying about um spending some money at the casino, guys, this is exactly what I'm talking about. This is exactly what I'm talking about. It's not the substance, it's the effing behavior. And if they're not working on correcting that behavior, if they're not acknowledging that that behavior exists, if they're not willing to put forth the effort to fix the behavior they are not worth investing in, this is the most important relationship of your life.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

If they're not willing to address the behavior that's affecting you, by the way, right, and your children, you're just gonna remove the substance by goodbye. There's no point.

SPEAKER_04:

Nope.

SPEAKER_00:

Addressing addiction means addressing all these things. All the things we talk about the brain, this is the stuff that we are working on. So defense mechanisms, so psychological defense mechanisms is another one. So projection and denial. These are often defense mechanisms. I can't be found out, I have to shoot back with this darvo. This is like sort of Darvo is Darvo becomes a habit, just like just like we talked about before, like the um what was that? The habitual patterns. Yeah, yeah. It becomes a habit. Yeah, and they're deeply ingrained in somebody and they will persist. These things, these are the things that we're talking about, these are the things that spouses are pissed about. This is the stuff we want y'all to fix. It's not just the substance, y'all. Yeah, it's the behavior.

SPEAKER_04:

Yep.

SPEAKER_00:

It's the behavior, and this is what you were experiencing. It was this crap. Yeah, this is the stuff that drove you nuts.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

And I'm glad that I was a closet addict for that reason because now you have the story to tell that I think is helpful for so many people to bring clarity to a lot of this. Yep. Like all this stuff was going on in me. For you, it didn't matter. No, like this is gonna kill me eventually. Like you you talked about this, like it was draining your life force.

SPEAKER_01:

Yep.

SPEAKER_00:

Like at some point, you were going to lose the will to live.

unknown:

Yep.

SPEAKER_00:

Like, read between the lines if you don't know what we're talking about there. But you were losing the will to live. Like this was killing you. Yeah, it was a bad environment for our children. It was a terrible environment for all of us. It didn't matter. It didn't matter. The substance didn't matter. Nope. The action didn't matter. The addiction, your trauma, everything you've been through didn't matter in those moments, especially when you're doing nothing to really address it. Didn't matter. It was about this is how I'm being affected. I have to get to a safe place. Yeah. We talk about, you know, like social learning theory, exactly. What the course is based on.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Is that your environment has a massive amount to do with your ability to heal in a situation. You're not going to get sick in the same environment that got you sick. Something has to change. We know this when it comes to addiction. We know that addicts don't succeed when they go back to the same environment. How would a spouse? How would a spouse ever heal if they're back in that same environment with his behaviors when all this stuff is present? And okay, and I should also say that you have to give people some grace and patience when they're working on this.

SPEAKER_05:

When they're working on it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Because these behaviors continued when I was sober.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

To a lesser degree.

SPEAKER_05:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

But they continued.

SPEAKER_05:

But not all of the behaviors continued. Like you, you, I think that you stopped lying pretty quickly after treatment.

SPEAKER_00:

I told my last lie on April the 11th.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah. 2013. I think that that helped tremendously. Like you took that one big piece of behavior and you worked on it. And everything else came off in layers. But of course, a few years ago, whenever things were you there were still some things that you hadn't addressed, I was on my last, you know, I was getting really frustrated with that too. Like I was like, this is, I don't know if I can stay with this for a long time. Like it was the whole thing. We talked about this in the podcast where it's like strike one, strike two, strike three type thing where like we need to address this. If you're not going to address this, then I need to reevaluate our situation. I was at that point, and that was what, eight years after?

SPEAKER_00:

So you had a patience. You had a lot of patience for me.

SPEAKER_05:

I did have a lot of patience for you, but then the last bit, the last piece, you finally came around and you finally figured it out. The last piece of behavior that was truly affecting me. The invalidating.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, invalidation of emotions, which should have been picked up like day one.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah. But it was very just like you did not listen. You did not, uh, there was something else that was on there where under the invalidation. I don't remember what the word was, but it was very much. Oh, go go back down. Stop. No, go back up.

SPEAKER_00:

Dismissiveness, belittling. Dismissiveness.

SPEAKER_05:

You dismissed a lot of the things that I would say.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And like we we talked about, like uh oftentimes it's said that people with like narcissism like don't they don't get better. Like people with true NPD, it's often said that they don't get better. They can learn to function, they can cognitively begin to understand. But one of the the the hallmarks of a narcissist is that they don't have empathy. Like they don't experience empathy like normal people experience empathy. They can learn cognitively. Like I wasn't, I wasn't that bad. And I don't think that I think most addicts exhibit narcissistic like behaviors.

SPEAKER_05:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm not a clinician, but I don't think that they're true narcissists.

SPEAKER_05:

No, but their behaviors are very similar and it feels the same to us.

SPEAKER_00:

It feels the same to a spouse.

SPEAKER_05:

And it does affect it affects us the exact same. If they're a narcissist or not, it's the same behaviors.

SPEAKER_00:

But the reason I bring this up is because I exhibited narcissistic type behaviors in our in our relationship after sobriety, and like when it came to invalidation and Darvo and all this stuff, you knew why those behaviors were there. This was a defense mechanism I developed as a child. And it was part of me. And it was like second nature to me. And it took everything I had to address that and to break it because I didn't even realize I was doing it half the time. It was it was compulsive, it was automatic. The work required to recover is huge. It's substantial, and it's why so few people end up with a happily ever after like we got.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Because of the work required. If someone's putting in the work, and when I say work, I mean intense therapy, some sort of a program. They are reading, they are invested, they are listening to shows, like they are freaking in it. It was, I was obsessed with it as I've ever been obsessed with anything in my entire life. Obsessed. And to this day I still am. Like it's it's my life. Like I'm addicted to getting better now. I'm addicted to learning more. What else can I uncover?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, it's a lifestyle.

SPEAKER_00:

That's what recovery looks like. We've talked about that too. And so you gave me patience for it. You gave me, you gave me some rope. Every every time I would show a behavior, I would start to change, I would address things. But man, I I love that you you looked at the behaviors and you didn't look at the substance. It's like, F the substance. I'm not talking about the substance, talking about the lie you just told me. I'm talking about the way you just dismiss me. Yeah. Talking about the way you just spoke to me and your anger and all these things. Like that's what's important.

SPEAKER_05:

I feel like if I would have known more about addiction and then had too much compassion for that. Um would have screwed it up. I think it would have screwed it up. I think that um it would have enabled you more to where Oh, I would have ran with that too. Where you would have ran with it. For sure, I would have.

SPEAKER_00:

Me back then, for sure.

SPEAKER_05:

Absolutely. Because you'd been like, oh yeah, she, you know, you'd feed off of it. You'd feed off of it. Oh yeah, she feels bad for me. You know, I don't have to change. Why would I have to change if if she's gonna tolerate the behavior because she has compassion? But I had compassion for you because I knew how you were, but I still wasn't gonna tolerate it.

SPEAKER_00:

I love that. And I think that's a healthy attitude to take forward. I think it's I would love to see more spouses adopt that sort of an attitude.

SPEAKER_05:

I think it's gonna take practice because a lot of people have focused so much on the substance and learning more about addiction and and things like that instead of looking at the behaviors. It's gonna take some practice to switch it. And what I'm gonna try to challenge in the community is to um start focusing more on behaviors and not keeping them sober or getting them sober and stuff like that. Start focusing on whatever it is they're doing that is affecting you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, pretend this person's not using a substance. How are they treating you?

SPEAKER_05:

Exactly. Yeah, and how is it affecting you? How's it affecting your kids? How's it affecting your life? Not the substance. So I'm gonna I'm gonna I'll go into the community and I'll start really um pushing it a little bit. Uh-huh. Yeah. And it's not, obviously, it's not to shame anybody, it's to help you grow, man. It's to help you see these things in a way that are like it it can open this the way to look at the behaviors can open your eyes in a totally different way. It can be empowering for you because then you'll realize, you know what, I don't have to tolerate this just because my person is an addict. I don't have to do that. Their behaviors affect me.

SPEAKER_00:

Boom. And that's it. And that's that's I think that's the moral of the story there. Yeah. Is that this stuff is affecting you deeply and it's going to change you possibly permanently.

SPEAKER_05:

Yes, this life changes you.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, this is this is serious business here. This is the most intimate partner that you have in life, and this can't continue. This just can't continue. It can't. Something's got to give. And I I hope they recover. I do. But if they choose not to, I hope that you have the strength to make a decision that's best for you and your children.

SPEAKER_05:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

And that's maybe to remove yourself from that situation for a while.

SPEAKER_05:

Right. And just can continue to educate yourself on how the behaviors impact you, you know, and empower yourself. Build that strength up.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Know that you can't get through to them with words, only actions.

SPEAKER_00:

And for every person that's struggling with an addiction listening to this, like I don't I don't mean to scare anyone or to to give you the impression that like I'm I'm not sensitive to the to the plight of an addict. I am. I am one. I've been there before. I know how tough it is. But I also want you to know that there are millions of us that are willing to help. There are millions of us, whether that's through a 12-step community, whether that's through uh a church group like Celebrate Recovery, whether that's through a cognitive approach like Smart Recovery, or a secular approach like Life Ring, or Buddhist approach like refuge recovery, or some other path that you choose with a licensed therapist or an addiction coach or whatever it is, we can get better.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes, but get to the root of the issues.

SPEAKER_00:

We cannot continue to drag people along without taking action. We cannot continue to hurt the people that love us by doing nothing with inaction. Something's gotta give. Something's gotta give. Like our goal here is to validate spouses, to educate them, to empower them, and to walk them through a recovery journey. I hope that you're around to see what that looks like because there's nothing better than having a spouse like you, like you, Paige, that is empowered. And it's it's not a threat to me at all. It's the greatest thing ever. Like we're in this kid together now. We pick each other up, we challenge each other recovery. We're learning together, like we're on the same page now.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

For so long, it's just it wasn't that way, no, you know, until you really became to see this for what it really is. And like I I know on one hand, yeah, that like nuts to bolts, she would leave me if I relapsed. I know that. Is that scary thing? Only if I plan on it, you know? Like it just keeps me that much more accountable. I'm not scared, yeah, I'm not worried about it at all.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

I've got over 4,000 days that tells me if I just keep doing that, then I'm gonna be okay. So I'm just gonna keep doing that.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm not gonna relent, I'm never gonna give up. So I want everyone to know that that's possible. That is possible for you too. However, you choose to do it, it is possible. But the underlying stuff here has to be addressed. If you think you're just gonna remove a substance, you are going to be sorely mistaken. Yep. You were gonna fix problems because we are here to let people know that's bullshit. Yep. We're here to remind them of it and validate them when those behaviors pop back up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Yep.

SPEAKER_00:

All right, that's all we've got. I hope people got something from that. Yeah, I think that's a concept we've tried to hammer home. I'm still not sure if we really got it. It's probably a better way to explain it.

SPEAKER_05:

I know. One day, one day, it'll like come to me in a way that'll be able to get through. But maybe, I don't know, maybe we did okay on this one.

SPEAKER_00:

We'll see. Yeah. Let's go back and listen to it when we edit tomorrow. All right, that's all we've got. It's late here. We are going to go to bed and get after it. Uh, looking forward to seeing everyone at the workshop. If you're listening to this on Wednesday, can't wait to meet you. Yes. Paige is gonna be super sweet. Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

And awkward.

SPEAKER_00:

And awkward. It's awesome. I'm proud of you too. Thank you. All right, until next time, I'm Matt. I'm Paige. And we'll see you.