Ep 021 Ainslie Urban Farm, Starting Tomatoes and Permaculture featuring Fiona Buining

In this episode Averill & Bernadette chat to permaculture royalty; Fiona Buining.  Fiona is passionate about growing plants, especially food plants, and is inspired to create pathways for future food growers in urban areas. Working with teenagers as a teacher she has seen first-hand the physical and mental health benefits of learning to grow food. Fiona chats to us about her story, as a pioneer in the Australian permaculture movement, and shares some fantastic tips on how and when to start your tomatoes.

Links for further information:

Ainslie Urban Farm - Fresh Microgreens In Ainslie

Permaculture - Wikipedia

Churchill Trust

Transcript

Before we start today, Seedy Chats would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the Ngunnawal and Ngamburi country, recognising their continued connection to this land. Traditional custodians of all our lands, from the water running through our creeks, the air we breathe in the mountains and the stars that shine brightly in the sky, we pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging. Hello and welcome. Welcome to Seedy Chats. Hello and welcome back. Welcome to Seedy Chats, the podcast where imperfect gardeners, Avril, that's me, and Bernadette. Hi, that's me. Chat about our favorite topics, gardening and life. So whether you're new to gardening, a seasoned pro, or somewhere in between, join us on our journey to be mindful in gardening and life in general. Avril, welcome to the studio. I don't know if you've noticed some of my posts lately, but I've got a new pet. Do you? Hmm. If you've not been following. Bread love. My sourdough starter. Oh. It is alive. You know me, in for a penny, in for a pound. So now I'm obsessed and down the sourdough train. I haven't tried any of this sourdough, just saying. I've got, well you've heard, I've got a batch nearly ready. Oh, that's nearly ready, yeah right. got into a second proof, but it's a whole process. I'm pretty much chained to the house because all I'm doing is looking after the cell. This was COVID with my neighbour and myself, and we'd have to share each other's ovens. And then it got to the point she'd be like, can I use your oven? And I'd be like, yeah, absolutely. And I would put my bread little oven in the oven to warm up. Like I got really au fait with exactly what to do. I was like, oh, it's warmed up and ready to go. And I'm like, yep. It's a whole science. I mean, Shout out to our seedy chums if anyone out there knows creative ways to use sourdough starter because I am looking for ways to use it every single day but yeah I'm down for sourdough. Crackers, have you done crack crackers? No no crackers yet, no lavash. I've got a cheesy mite scrolls on the menu for today. Oh yeah and cinnamon scrolls? Well I'm trying to eat a bit healthily but I devour cinnamon scroll right now. So yeah, so Brad, what have you been putting on it, Bernadette? So we did, we did some dinner rolls, just the classic sour diamond, just last night we just had a parsnip and pumpkin soup. And if you're not, I know I go on about parsnips, but I bloody love them. But if you have your normal pumpkin soup and you put a couple of parsnips in, they're so sweet. It makes it so sweet. And then cracked pepper, all I had was stock, parsnips, pumpkin, cracked pepper. Blitz that up with a little bit of... light cream because my body is a temple and then had that with the fresh sourdough and butter. Oh my gosh Avril. It does sound beautiful. Does Charlotte eat it? She calls it juice. She says it's yum juice. Oh yum juice. She was dunking a little bread in. I always remember Callan would always eat his family daycares, pumpkin soup, would come home yuck, mommy, yuck. I think it's a bit of group think with them at daycare, but also they don't let them snack in between meals. So they're quite rabid. They're hungry. That's probably it, because he is free and free range. He is a corn thin. He is free range. He is free. Yeah, yeah, fair enough. That sounds gorgeous. Well done. Brendan, we have an awesome guest today. Are you pretty excited to talk to Fiona? Oh. Absolutely. We have a lovely chat today coming up with Fiona Bueening. Fiona is passionate about growing plants, especially food plants, and is inspired to create pathways for future food growers in urban areas. Hello, yourself and I, Avril. That's it. She works with teenagers. I could always... Oh, that's so us. So many options. Well, I feel like a teenager. I'll just go when I'm, you know, hungry, when I'm angry. And as a teacher, she has seen firsthand the physical and mental health benefits of learning to grow food. Fiona was awarded a Churchill Fellowship in 2020 to investigate urban farm ventures that provide vocational pathways for aspiring food growers. She believes that growing food is one of the most positive actions people can do for their own health and to heal the planet. As a grower, she has observed... and unmet demand for locally grown fresh food. Her question was, how do you become an urban grower in Australia? So sit back, relax, listen to this, and please, I hope you get inspired. There's a great section coming up where Fiona talks about possibly the most important thing for all gardeners, which is starting your tomatoes. When to start your tomatoes. How to do you tomato? It's not that far away. She starts them pretty early. It's quite controversial, isn't it? It's gardening gold. It is gardening gold. I nearly did an Avril and wrote things down. I was that into it. Oh, Bernadette, that's so funny. Just when you said sit back and relax and enjoy this. Some people listen when they're gardening. So just whatever you're doing. Stand up, sit down. Aerobics, whatever. Yes, drive, whatever can be. Enjoy. Today we have a camera local with us. We have Fiona from Ainslie Urban Farm. Welcome Fiona. Thank you so much. It's lovely to be here with both of you. It's very exciting to talk to you. And you've come in your overalls and you've left your muddy boots at the door, which is, I've actually. Oh yeah, I didn't even take them. I've actually joined you with a bit of mud on my jeans today. Excellent answer. I've gone out in the garden this morning myself. And jam on her shirt. Oh yes. Oh, fantastic. I texted Avril and I said it's 7.01 and I've already got jam on. That's okay. It's like the food and the gardening go together. Keeping it real, Bernadette, keeping it real. I do grow the boysenberries. that have stained by shit. Good work. So give us a brief introduction. We've got a great history, very inspiring story. Where did it all begin? Hmm, that's a really great question. So as Avril said, I'm Fiona Booning and I operate a small business called Ainslie Urban Farm. In terms of where it began, like I've always really loved plants. And just from a very young age, I remember really loving being out in the garden. Like one of my earliest memories, my parents had a gardener called when he was there gardening and mum and dad were there as well. And I've got a really early memory of just collecting worms and being really fascinated by worms in the garden. So yeah, I've been growing plants and loving plants for as long as I can remember. So I've had like a productive, like a veggie garden in every house that I've lived in. So even in rentals like, have always just grown veggies. So it's... it's just part of what I do, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I just really love it. I love being able to go out and just see what's in the garden and pick that and cook something with it. So I generally don't cook to recipes. I just make what you have with what is in the garden. I love that my mother-in-law does that. It's great. Yeah, it might not be everyone's style, but I just really love it because it's always super fresh and really tasty and I've grown it myself. Yes. I mean, I bet we all struggle with the what's for dinner and you go. I reckon it's the hardest part of adulting. Oh, how many meals do you have to prepare before you know it? Another one? You have to do another one. That's right. I always say that to my husband because he'll he goes, he'll go to work, he'll come home. And so this sounds very stereotypical, he'll be like what's for dinner? But he's a really good cook. He's a better cook than I. He's a great baker. But he I always say to him, I don't know. It's really it's been really, it's been a hard day. I'm not too sure. the hardest part of adulting is having to cook. So is it refreshing to go out into the garden and go, do you know what? kohlrabi is ready. So I'll do that and then I'll do a white sauce. Oh, if I'm doing white sauce, maybe I'll do corned beef and then it all just comes together. Yeah, yeah. It definitely is great having the food in the garden. Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, lovely. And are you from Canberra Fiona? No. Okay. So I grew up in Sydney and my husband also grew up in Sydney and we decided we didn't wanna live in Sydney for lots of reasons. So we actually, our first home together like after we got married and we decided to leave Sydney we went down to central Victoria and we actually bought a one acre block next door to Hepburn permaculture gardens which is what David Holmgren's property was called back then and so we had a passive solar house built on that block of land and developed that block along permaculture principles so we lived... I mean pretty... progressive for that time as well. I mean, you hear about people doing the passive houses and everything now, but how long ago was that? So that was in the 90s. Yeah, right. And well, probably the most exciting thing about that house is we were actually the first place, I think, in Australia to get approval to not connect to the sewer. So our house was in a sewage area and we got permission to have a composting toilet and on-site greywater treatment system. actually didn't have to pay for sewer connection. That was the other battle that we fought. So we... Yeah, we're not using it for a night. We'd like to not pay for it. Exactly, which normally they charge you. It's like, even if you don't connect to electriSeedy, you still have to provide because the service goes past your door. You still have to contribute. So it's the same with the sewer. So we set a legal precedent, which was really exciting because that kind of paved the way for other people. Yeah, of course. And in fact, when we moved to Canberra 2004 we met a couple who had built a house in Ainslie and they had actually read all our articles that we wrote about not connecting to the sewer and they in Ainslie they have a composting toilet and a read bed yeah and that was because they'd read about our persistent work. I never knew that, that if it went past your door you still had to pay for it. Yeah, exactly. I understand it in principle but it's, I guess, if we want to, you know, if we want to get to the point where we're having more of these properties that are self-sustaining or off the grid then it makes sense that you only pay for what you need. Excuse the pun but it's pretty shit. Well the thing is every litre of water that is not going into the sewage system like... just reduces the burden. Because as we know, most sewage systems are, do struggle from time to time. And you do read that they have to release untreated or partially treated sewage into natural waterways, which is in my mind, not okay. So anyway, that was one of our big things that we did there. And I also taught permaculture with David Holmgren for seven years when we lived there. And then my husband did a PhD willows versus native vegetation in the riparian zones which is super interesting and then we moved to Canberra in 2004. Right okay. Yeah so we've been here for yeah almost 20 years. Wow so explain to people listening who David your neighbour was. Oh okay so there's this concept called permaculture which some people say is a shortening of two words like permanent culture of design for sustainable human settlements. And David Holmgren was a student in Tasmania at the time and he met a guy called Bill Mollison and together they developed the concept of permaculture in the 70s, which beautiful. That was in Tasmania, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah. And that's now like a global movement. And I actually was a student on the first permaculture course David ever taught, which was in 1991. Oh, oh gosh. notes last night actually from the course that we did. It was on a little farm called Cow's Nest in the Bega Valley and there were I think there were about 11 of us or 12 of us and we just like had lectures every day in this little like tin shed on the property and slept in tents and we did some field trips and yeah it was really cool and so after that like I that's how I met like And meeting Sue was the reason I had like home births. Because she told me about like her experience having a child at home. And so yeah, our two children, in fact, our eldest daughter was born in their lounge room. Because we looked after... Because you didn't want to get your house dirty. No, no. Funny. That's a whole other story. But no, we looked after their house and property trip. And yeah, Jemima was born. Oh wow. What an amazing life. And that was in Melbourne? That was in Hepburn Springs. Yeah. Which is about an hour and a half, North West, I would say of Melbourne. Yeah, right. Yeah. Congratulations. That's awesome. A homebred. I reckon I'm my first, my little girl, because I stayed at home so long. And then by the time I got there and they were like the whole first baby, you're going to be ages. And then they were like, Oh, you're 40 centimeters. You are. And like within an hour and a little bit, I had Ava. But my second pregnancy was very different. I was a really high risk pregnancy. You just couldn't, couldn't because I really thought my second one, this could be it. Yeah. I think I'm going to have this baby at home. Yeah. And then when I heard I was high risk, I was like, I was terrified to do anything. Yeah, yeah. Fair enough. Yeah, yeah. But but I reckon my first and it would have been amazing. It's a lot more common in the UK. things like that as well. And I think it's a shame that it's not, I think a lot of women would like to explore it, but maybe feel afraid to make that decision. Well, I think so. I think that's probably what happened to me with Ava. I wasn't given probably the opportunity to explore it more, which is a shame, I suppose, but good work. Congratulations. Yeah, it was great. It was fun. And you know, we're just touching then on permaculture. And I think one of the biggest, almost common misconceptions with permaculture is that it's just about gardening, But really it encompasses a whole lifestyle, a whole way of living, doesn't it? Yeah, it's really, I like to think about it as it's like a new, it's a different paradigm. So it's like a way of viewing the world. So everything that you already know can easily like be kind of framed within permaculture. So I think it's a really useful lens for like viewing the world and making decisions. a design for sustainable human settlements. So that covers pretty much everything. Like it covers, you know, how we interact as human beings, how we care for the earth, how we design our housing, how we make choices in our life about various things. So it's a very wide field, that's for sure. I think it's a really useful way of looking at the world. Certainly, you know, not everyone is in a position where they can like grow food. But one of the permaculture principles is like, obtain a yield. Because that's obviously an issue with humanity. We need to feed ourselves, we need water, we need various resources. And so we need to try and live on the earth in a more sustainable way so that what we are doing is essentially harvesting a sustainable yield. And if we were doing that, it would mean systems can just perpetuate forever. them through our harvesting practices. So in permaculture, like obviously, like for me, like living within a permaculture framework, like growing food is really, really important to us. But there are also a whole lot of other things in our lifestyle, which fit within the permaculture framework, like even just choosing to live somewhere where we only need one car. That kind of falls into like part of that. framework. That's right, yeah. And it's a journey I'm sure you haven't, you know, that you're progressively getting better at those things and everyone's got to start from somewhere. I know sometimes we talk about the guilt. Yeah, you don't have the mum guilt, you've got the, you know, the environment, but it's all about learning, educating and especially if you've got children like we do, you know, helping raise those next little warriors that are going to take those lessons on as well. That's right, yeah. And even it might just Exactly. So doing something with your food scraps or giving them to someone, just being mindful maybe on that journey or where you're buying your food. We talk about this. If you can't grow it, you can still go to a farmer's market. You can still support locals. So I like the way that you described that, that you don't have to have that bit of land and grow. It's just the mindfulness of just doing a few things in your life that can change. Also when you were saying that, looking through that lens, the way that you were saying that, that you treat other people, I'd never considered that in regards to permaculture. So yeah, that's one of the so there's kind of like, I guess, two sets of things that are like guiding. overarching principles in permaculture. So the first are what they call the permaculture ethics, which the ethics essentially are like care of the earth and care of people. And then there are like 12 principles, which I gave an example, like one of those is like obtaining a yield. So yeah, it's, I think with all these things like everyone's on a journey, it's like with growing food, like there's not one way of doing it. journey, like I'm always learning new things. And I think it's that probably the thing that I loved about permaculture the most when I did my design course in 1991 was that it was a new way of viewing the world but it was a very positive way of viewing the world because I worked in conservation after I graduated from uni and I loved it, it was really great but I always felt I was fighting against bleached paper mill or stopping this or trying to fix up like a really contaminated site. And it was. Great, but it was draining. It was draining, yeah. Very draining. And you were just fighting against something. Whereas with permaculture, you were actually doing something positive for the earth. Even if it is like, and it's not actually a tiny thing to like not put your food scraps in landfill. Like that is a massive. It's huge, it is huge. It might be a tiny daily action just putting it in that bin instead of that bin. But oh my goodness, you are saving like space in landfill. You are stopping the emission of methane that will happen food scraps go into landfill. Methane is a really powerful greenhouse gas. It's scary. It's a really powerful action to just not put your food in the landfill like and it's one thing and then I think once you do one thing you can it will inspire you to another. So with growing vegetables that's what I always say to people is if you haven't grown anything start with one thing. Yeah. Just grow it just set yourself a growing goal and just try growing one thing it could be on your kitchen bench. It could be like a few lettuces in a pot, it could be some rocket in a pot which you can use in salads, sandwiches and in cooking. Just grow one thing and when you have success you will be inspired to try another thing. That's right. Absolutely. Yeah it grows. I think that's what's happened to us as well. Next thing you'll be at the horticultural show Avril, you just wait till I get you competing. Exactly, exactly. Oh Bernadette. Brenda, shall I go put the kettle on? It's cup of tea time. What was your first thing, what was the first thing you grew that got you hooked? Look, one of the first things that I grew, there's two things, I guess, that I did a long time ago that I really loved. So I grew strawberries in my parents' backyard. I really loved doing that. But also, back in the early 90s, my husband and I actually planted a whole heap of rainforest trees in my parents' backyard. So they lived in Tarahumara in Sydney, and they're on this pocket of like amazing and really high rainfall. And what was amazing is that all those trees grew. And before my parents saw the house five years ago, one of those trees that I planted had actually started dropping its seed pods. And that was just absolutely, it was just so satisfying. Like to be able to plant a tree and see it kind of, I mean, trees can live for a very long time, to see the tree kind of in a sense reach maturity because it has started to produce seeds. Yeah, exactly. Super satisfying. Yeah. It's pretty, trees are very special, aren't they? Oh, it's just awesome. We've talked about this in previous podcasts where they're in the ground, they stretch up into the sky and they really are. They're our elders, like they can tell a story. They're just brilliant. And I think the great thing about planting a tree is it's such... an act of hope and belief in the future. Yes. Like when we bought our place that we're in now in Canberra, there were no plants on the block. So just to see the plants grow, because the first thing we planted on the block were the trees. So we just kind of like designed the framework, like where we wanted the trees to go. So with your permaculture, course that you joined. Is it a course or a degree or what would you describe it? There's all kinds of ways you can study it. Like I did what's called a permaculture design certificate course which the traditional way is like a 14-day residential course but it can be delivered in various modes but it's basically yeah like that's the in-depth like 72 hours of study kind of thing. So after doing that where did that take you in your career? What was the next step? It's a really good question. EW About the same time, my husband did a permaculture course with Bill Mollison up on the North Coast of New South Wales. So we both really loved the framework that it provided. So that helped us really make decisions about where to next in our life. So it definitely helped us decide to move from Sydney that we wanted to buy a block of land and develop it along permaculture lines and kind of live, I guess you'd call it like an alternative lifestyle. was really important for... paving our way forward together. Yes. And we're both like very aligned with that as being our life's journey. Your values. Yeah. So it has been I don't know if that answers your question. No, no. Did you then get into teaching yourself? Well, when we were still living in Sydney and one day like David called me up and asked if I wanted to teach a permaculture course with him and that was super fun. And when we, shortly after that, once we'd made the decision to move from Sydney, we actually went on a bit of a road trip, like up to Northern New South Wales, out to Western New South Wales, down to Victoria. And that's when we actually found a one acre block of land and we actually just had... the money to buy the block of land. So it was just was next door to David and Sue's place. So we bought it and we just packed everything up and moved down to Victoria. So yeah, that's kind of how the journey there started. And so I taught, David and Sue ran one permaculture design course every year. So I taught on that each year. And my husband was doing a PhD looking at willows at Ballarat Uni and doing field work the Hepburn Springs area. Yes. So yeah, and we did consultancy and stuff as well. Yeah, I was gonna say, did you have another parallel career beside this or this was your career? Well, that very much was my career. I also ran a small enterprise with a couple of women for a couple of years called Solar Sisters, where we ran Passive Solar House tours. Yeah, right. Because we each lived in a Passive Solar House, so we ran tours and we did some consulting work together. two children by this stage. And the way we arranged it is I was like the primary carer and Michael was the primary earner. Yeah. So it wasn't until we moved to Ballarat for a couple of years to be closer to his work that I did a DIP-Ed. And then when we moved to Canberra, I started teaching. Yeah. So up until that point, I'd kind of been doing like bibs and bobs of part-time work that fitted in around the children. Fantastic. That's great. And so you moved to Canberra in 2004? And so for anyone that's not from Canberra, was it like so Ainslie is a lovely old suburb of Canberra, isn't it? So. It's lovely. Yeah. I mean, it was just lucky that we moved there because I, when we were in Victoria, I started ringing schools to get a job and I rang Darumarlin College in Dixon. And they just said, oh yeah, we've got a position open. I'll add your application to the pile if you send it through tomorrow. And then I got a phone call and got an interview So it was like all on we were moving and because that's in Dixon we just were looking for rentals and even back then it was so hard to find a rental house it's just I really empathize with people having difficulty it was So hard. Anyway, we found this house in Ainslie, which was perfect. And we were able to stay in that house for five years. And they didn't put the rent up, which was awesome. So yeah. We were good renters. Yeah, yeah. We were there until we moved into the house that we're in now. Yeah. I believe you started teaching at a Stinus school and then you moved on to Morici. Yep. And at Morici, you were teaching a sustainability course. And I was saying to Avril earlier, it's one of the single most encouraging things I've actually heard since we've gone down this journey together because we talk about the climate crisis and all these other things. But the thought of having an elective unit that you could do at school that's on sustainability was hopeful, it made me really hopeful. The thought of my daughter going to school and maybe selecting the elective that I might be doing in sustainability. But you know what I mean? And so was there much difference in the approach, I was wondering, in what you taught at the Stinus schools versus, say, Morici? that I've taught in and every school is different. Yes. So it's hard to compare. I mean, the Steiner curriculum is really rich and the way they deliver. education through their main lesson program is really powerful learning. Like students in Steiner schools actually remember what they've learned like years before, which is that's a big difference between mainstream and a Steiner school. However, that being said, like the sustainability elective at Morici was incredible. Like I just felt so lucky that I arrived there. I didn't even know I was going to get given that subject until I accepted the position as a science teacher. It was an award-winning program, wasn't it? Yeah, so literally I was driving past Morici one day on the way to Irana, and I just thought, why am I driving 17 kilometres to work when I could be teaching at that school that's just down the road? And that weekend, I saw a job advertised at Morici in the newspaper, and I wasn't even looking for work. I just saw it, I was like, that's it, I'm applying. I got the job, and when they rang up to offer it to me, they said, have you got a green thumb? Yeah, why? It just so happens. Yeah, it just so happens. And they said, oh, because we've got this massive new greenhouse. Oh, stop. It's like, oh my God, that's so great. So when I arrived there, I know, basically... Your sun and stars and everything just aligned. The planets were aligned. So I got given this amazing elective to teach. with two classes of girls who'd chosen it in year nine and 10. And I had this great garden that had just been built and I had a greenhouse. So I had three teaching spaces, which is absolute luxury in a subject because the greenhouse was big enough to have my whole class in there working. Especially, it's amazing. Do you know when you're at school and you're just sitting in the boring old classroom, can you imagine getting out into the greenhouse and then getting, it would be a lot more stimulating. Oh, they loved it. And, You know, in Harry Potter, the film where they all go into the greenhouse and they are potting up those plants that are alive and kicking and screaming. Yeah, literally the kids would come into the greenhouse and go, oh, it's like Harry Potter. So look, it was amazing. And it just went from strength to strength. So I also developed a curriculum for year seven students, which was delivered as part of the religious education program. So we called it stewardship. they learn about caring for the earth, which is a really fundamental permaculture principle, but also actually a fundamental principle in most religions is to actually care for the earth. So it worked really well. The religion teachers loved it. The kids absolutely loved it. So basically every child in year seven got a series of 10 lessons where we worked in the garden and the glass house and familiarize them with other sustainability practices So that was like the intro that every child did, which was great. What a refreshing religious education unit, as someone who did a double major in religion. Okay, yes. And I had to do Australian church history, which how they stretched that out for a term. Yep. That was a miracle in itself. That's quite heavy. Well, there's not a lot of Australian church history. But, you know, that would have been... What an awesome alternative. It was really fun. And just what was really satisfying was over the year or two years, because some students would choose the elective in year nine and year 10. So students who did it for two years, they were so experienced at the end of two years. Like they really could be independent workers in the garden. So what I was always aiming is that by the end of the first year, I would want them to be fairly independent. and be able to look around and tell me what needs doing and then just get on with it. So look, it was just, it was fantastic. Like really great. We ran a series of really wonderful farm excursions. We would actually go out to working farms and work on the farm and then have lunch on the farm. And I'm really fortunate that I have a really good network of farmers that I know. And so the two farms that I used to go to every year, there were women working on the farm, farm owners were women, which is a really good role model for girls as well to just see, oh yeah, this is something women can do. They can drive tractors, they can use tools, they can do welding, like they can do all this amazing stuff. And do they still run this curriculum in Maroochee? When do we sign it all up? I want to go back to school. Oh yeah, it was pretty fun. The elective is definitely still running and the garden is still going strong and the greenhouse is still there. So yeah, there's like a lovely young woman who's teaching the elective and there's a wonderful guy on the maintenance team who's really passionate about gardening, who supports the garden aspect. So after your teaching, when did your journey with Ainslie Urban Farm start? Oh yeah, that's a great question. So I actually started growing microgreens at Morici in 2013. And was that just on a whim, I'm gonna do microgreens? Well, the... The hospitality teacher just said to me one day, oh, can you grow microgreens? Oh, okay, because they were going to use them. Yeah, they wanted to use them in the kitchen because they taught hospitality. We were doing raisin scones. Yes, well, now they would have microgreens on them, okay. So, and I just said, sure, I'll give it a go. And she actually handed me a book. I was like, okay. So I read the book. There were some names of seed companies in the back. So I rang them up and asked for some free seed. sent me a whole stack of free seed samples. So I just started a trial in the greenhouse and I'd wanted to grow them differently. You have the new greenhouse. Exactly. So we were using the greenhouse to propagate seedlings for the garden. Yeah. but I just started growing the microgreens and I wanted to grow them in soil because most microgreens are grown hydroponically. So in artificial growing media and given like liquid nutrients from the base and they have a really short shelf life and there's a lot of waste that you have to throw away like all the packaging, all the artificial growing media and they're expensive and also they don't have much flavor. So I wanted to grow them in soil and it worked really well. met a chef, Janet Jeffs, who is the executive chef at Ginger Group, the National Arboretum. And I said, Oh, would you like to try some microgreens that I'm growing? And she said, Sure. So I made an arrangement and the next week did a delivery. And she absolutely loved them. And so she became my first customer and she is still a customer. And so then it just grew kind of I did a combination of cold calling restaurants and word of mouth. And I ran that as a fundraiser for the school until 2016. And that whole time I was still teaching and was doing the microgreens as a fundraiser. And I just kept thinking, this is really a business now. How can I change it to a business? And then one day I just realised, oh, I can just build a greenhouse in the backyard and run it from home and still keep teaching. So that's what I did. And when I approached the school, they were really happy because it had grown bigger than a fundraiser and schools can't. on businesses so it had kind of like exhausted its life as a fundraiser. So I moved it to home in 2016 and the reason I called the business Ainslie Urban Farm is my children. I've got two daughters who are... 29 and 26, they called our place the farm and their friends called it the farm. So I just thought, okay, Ainslie Urban Farm. So 2016 in spring, I started selling from home. And then a couple of years later, I built another greenhouse at home because I'd outgrown the first one. There's never enough space for gardeners. There's never enough space in a greenhouse. When you say greenhouse, is it a tunnel? No, it's actually like a really solid poly... polycarbonate greenhouse. And I bought greenhouses from a New Zealand company, so they've got a really high wind rating and the quality of the polycarbonate is really high. Oh, that's interesting. I need, because I want a greenhouse. Isn't that great? Game changer. But I'm in a wind tunnel and my husband's like, it needs to be pretty solid. You're a mom. I believe the one that you're using, a friend of mine also uses, he's out in Cooma and they're very exposed to wind and it's tough as hell. Yeah, concrete slab, yeah. you know, it'll be your own little sanctuary. It could be blowing a gale outside and you'll go in there. It'll be warm and cosy. The rain won't bother you. It's so great. You essentially can garden in any weather when you have a greenhouse. Like I, my grandfather had a greenhouse and I remember as a child visiting there every week and I would always go out to the greenhouse and be absolutely fascinated. So I've always wanted one and now I have two. It's like, yes. Show off. I've got one out the back and it really has changed the way I go. I'm still getting capsicum. like in the middle of winter, it really has changed the way I go. But also, like you say, any day you can start a seed. So even on the gloomiest and most depressing of days, which is really the days you need to be outside the most, you can go out there and just, you know, pop a broad bean in the soil and... Do you heat your greenhouses? No, so our greenhouses both face north, like that inner section of the backyard that has like full north sun. The floor, so we've got paving down the middle. and then under the benches I've got crushed brick. So there is some thermal mass in the greenhouse but no there's no need I don't use any artificial heating or lighting in the greenhouses. I do use frost cloths at night to cover things because there's quite a big difference between the way a glass house works is the outside temperature when it's cooler then inside it literally does like suck. like, well, there's, there's air movement that has heat, but there's also just like, heat conduction. So there is like heat loss from the warm space, even though it's a twin wall polycarbonate through that to the atmosphere. And so putting a layer over the plants, like using frost cloth really interesting. It makes a really big difference. So that's the only thing that I do. And I don't need to use frost cloth in summer, but use it in summer it just depends like what the outside temperature is. And do you move the air in summer in your greenhouse? I've got no like ventilation system apart from well I do have ventilation so I've got vents that open by themselves like their wax filled vents that when the sun hits the wax, the wax melts and that pushes the vent open. So I've got roof vents and I've got doors. But I don't have like fans, they're not really big enough to need fans. I mean fans can be very useful in a greenhouse. Bernadette has a little fan in hers. I do sort of biggest, I presume you're I try and get some of my, just get the airflow to strengthen them up a bit, you know? Oh, yep, yep. Yeah. And the other thing you can... So they're not too wiry and weak. The other thing you can do for that is if you don't have a fan. I mean, I get plenty of air movement because of the opening the doors. Yes. Like one of my greenhouses has actually got doors at both ends, so it's really warm. Yeah, beautiful. And I've also got vents low down on the ground so I can get like that air movement from like the warm air rising movement. Yes. with seedlings is just to like run your hand over the top of them to simulate wind. So even just you've got your little seedlings like run your hand over the top. It simulates, maybe not. Every time you're in there when you're watering or whatever. And I'm very tactile. I love the idea. Yeah. It definitely, it. stimulates like stronger stands. I'd be like sorry Craig I can't do anything today. No back scratches, I'm exhausted. Talk to Fiona about it. Yeah I think it's pretty soothing like stroking your tomato seedlings. Yeah yeah yeah. When do you? So let's get serious. Yeah okay yep yep. Got the planting calendar here. We've got the planting calendar here. Things are happening. Daffodils are blooming. They are. My heart is erasing because I'm like I need to, when are you starting your tomatoes? Okay good question. So one for years is we ran a massive tomato plant sale. So the students and I propagated tomato seedlings and I think the last year I was there we sold 1500 plants. So it was like a massive operation. So the date I start, like this is obviously controversial in Canberra, everyone has an opinion about when to start. We'll just ignore all those people. I start on the 20th of August. Okay. Yeah so I plant my eggplant, tomato and capsicum seeds around that date and on heat mats, so this is when I do use heat. So I actually have a grow tent, but you don't need a grow tent to do this. Outside of the greenhouse. Yeah, I've got a grow tent that is in a little like purpose-built wooden cabinet, which is very awesome. So- But you don't like, I mean, people- You don't need a tent. You don't know. So if you wanted to start from seed, anything in the Solanaceae family, so eggplant, capsicums, chilies, tomatoes, germination temperature. For tomatoes, ideal germination is I think around 23. I normally go about 25. For capsicums and eggplants, it's actually close to 30 degrees. So you would set your thermostat to 25. Yeah, so what I've got, so there's a, what I do, and then I'll give you a couple of alternatives. So what I do is I have like a thermostat. So I have a little probe that I put in the soil that the seed is in, and I set my thermostat to, I think what I'll do this year, I normally just set it to 25 I'll be doing my eggplants, capsicums and tomatoes all at the same time. So then they can all share the head man? Yeah, well I've got two shelves in my tent. So the top shelf I will probably do the eggplants and capsicums on because it'll get warmer on the top shelf and then I'll put the probe in the soil on the bottom shelf. And so then if I put it on 25, the bottom shelf with the tomatoes will be 25. I reckon around the top it'll get like around 28 which will be perfect. So um. I then once they've got their first two leaves and then once they start getting their true leaves because the first leaves that come out of a seed are called the seed leaves there's a word for that called cotyledon it just means seed leaves so they're the first leaves but the first true leaves look different so once the first true leaves start emerging then I take them out of the tent and I Yeah, I just use the heat mats until they're at that stage. Single most valuable conversation I've ever had with someone. Also light. Light is really important. So plants need light. So most seeds do not need light for germination. So none of those things like none of those tomatoes, eggplants need light to germinate. So plant the seed, cover the seed. The depth for planting equals twice the size of the seed. Yes. Okay, I'll repeat that. The depth for planting equals twice the size. of the seed. Okay, that is a formula for- So if the seed is one centimetre, then you'd plant it two centimetres deep. Exactly, and a tomato seed is maybe like two to three millimetres. So just plant it six millimetres down. Yeah, right. That's a general rule of thumb for planting seed. You don't want them too deep, because if seeds are planted too deep, as they start to emerge, the little seedling could run out of energy before it reaches the surface for photosynthesis. If it's too shallow and the seed gets exposed and dries out, germination all over. So you do need the seeds covered and they don't need light, but as soon as the seeds have germinated, you need to switch the lights on. So I have lights in my tent. So if you're germinating not in a tent, which is fine, there are a few other methods. So for example, you could have a heat mat, like you can buy a heat mat for $30. You can have a heat mat just on the floor in your kitchen or on your bench and put- Yep, that's where I started with mine on the kitchen bench. Totally will work. You could also have like- Much like husband's discuss. have like a hot water bottle under some thick newspaper. Yeah. That will work like exactly on top of your hot water system. It will they will germinate without bottom heat it would just take longer. The key thing with germinating any seed is once they've germinated get them out in the Sun because even though you think your house is bright if you use like a light meter, most phones have a your house might be 10% of what's outside. It is not enough for plant growth and if you're using lights, lights typically to compensate or to have the equivalent amount of photosynthetic energy as being in the sun, I think generally like a rough rule of thumb is you would want your lights on for about 16 hours. Like that does vary a lot but yeah it's not the same. Because I have an issue with my seedlings when I'm starting them inside. that they get a little bit laggy. That's because of not enough light. And also they will start bending towards the light. So that's called etiolation. The lagginess is etiolation and the bending is like a response to growing towards the light. So the cells opposite the light actually elongate at a faster rate. And that causes the plant to bend towards the light. So as soon as they've germinated, like Cambria is mostly sunny, whack them outside and then just bring them inside at night. The other really great thing is to build a cold frame. So there are lots of designs for cold frames, which is essentially like an old glass window frame or a sheet of glass or a sheet of polycarbonate that opens on hinges. It's on a box and you've got hinges opening. I've even seen great ones with those old, you know, light and easy polystyrene boxes where people put a clear piece. Totally. You know, you can do a little homemade version. That's reusing as well. Yes. I've got the VegTruck, which is a version of that, veg. Veg. I always say veg, it's obviously veg. Oh yeah, the veg trog. Yeah, yeah. We know what you're talking about. I think I'll be spotting two of you any time soon. Bruneta was talking about this in one of our first episodes and I was like, don't you mean a veg trog? And she's like, oh, is that what they're called? As an old teacher, if you were going for veg, would you have done V-E-G-E? because they've gone VEG. This is where my brain stops and goes big. Yeah, I don't know, that's a really good question. Yes, great question. But yeah, cold frame. So you're saying as soon as they're germinated, get them outside and that's gonna help them become a bit more hardy as well, isn't it? And what do we call it? It will allow their stems to get stronger. There's a few benefits. So firstly, number one requirement for plants, like light and water. Plants need carbon dioxide, light and water. So that's why you need to get your seedlings outside. Yes. So you need to get them out in the light because that little plant, it's only had enough nutrients in the seed to germinate. So how is it actually going to sustain itself? It has to do that through the process of photosynthesis and for that it needs the light. And it will still photosynthesize if it's cold, you just need that light. So you'll also get other benefits from being outside. Yes, it will help like making them more hardy when you eventually plant them out. The key thing is then just to bring them inside at night or have some kind of cover that protects them from. Don't forget them, I doubt it happened to me once. Or if you've got a little greenhouse, that's perfect. See, I've been leaving the heat mat on way longer. And so this is a breakthrough for me. Yeah, you definitely don't need to. I mean, it might speed up the growth. Like obviously the warmer the soil is, that is going to help speed up growth. But once they've germinated, get them in the ground. You don't want them to be too needy though. You don't want them too needy. I always find the sooner I can get them into the ground, the better they do. So that's my next question to you. So the soil that they start in, when do you start feeding them? When do they need more? Are you potting up? I start them in a seed raising mix. Seed raising mix normally has some, like enough nutrients in it for the first few weeks of growth. Then once my seedlings are about four weeks old, like we're just talking about tomatoes, eggplants, capsicums here, I pot them up into the square pots that are about 10 by 10 centimetres. Now, I do not like liquid feeding a plant. Like once a seedling looks like it needs feeding or needs watering, it has already experienced plant stress. and from a commercial point of view, once a plant is experiencing plant stress, you are losing productivity. So you wanna avoid that at all costs. So what I do when I'm potting up is I get my potting mix and I add organic extra or life force gold, like they are two fertilizers that I do recommend. I'm not sponsored by them, but I do recommend them. So they are both made from pelleted organic chicken manure and they have trace elements added to them. of potting mix, I would add two cups of organic extra or life force gold and mix it through. And that is like an organic slow release fertilizer and you'll get incredible seedlings. So I then grow my tomatoes, eggplants and capsicums on in those pots with the enhanced potting mix until usually early to mid November. I don't plant my tomatoes out till then and I always get tomatoes by Christmas. And you're keeping them in that 10 by 10? Yeah and they're big. By time... They've got enough to keep them going. Oh that's enough nutrients. You will not need to liquid feed at all. So that's... because one thing is the health of the plants and the other thing is your time and your energy. Like... honestly, like if you have to liquid feed your plants, that is like fiddly and takes a lot of time and bloody blast. So who wants to do that? Yeah, it's a game changer to just whack that organic extra in the potting mix. You will get amazingly, the thing I love about my tomato seedlings that I notice, and if I'm looking for seedlings, I would be looking for the same thing, nice, strong, thick stems. Yeah. And what about the roots, the root system? Because sometimes, you know, seedling. You'll go to the roots just kind of limp, limply. I'm just using black plastic pots. So in plastic pots, you can get a bit of like circling of the roots. I've never had circling of the roots with mine. But if you've got if you feel the roots are a bit like, you know, congested in there, you can just like gently break them apart from underneath. Like, just open them up. You're not going to wreck it. And then tomato plants will actually grow roots from the stem. Those little hairy. actually. So if you plant the tomato deep, so I probably plant at least like is that about 15 centimetres of the stem into the ground? So I make a nice deep hole, plant it deeply, pack the soil gently around it, it will grow roots from the stem in no time and you'll get like a really sturdy plant. What are your thoughts on, you know the way I've seen some people where they lay them on the ground, parallel on the ground, they leave them in the pot and then the tomato plant will shoot back up around to the light and then once that starts to happen, they'll take it out planted in the ground parallel to the ground. Yeah, I've seen that. You can do that. Yeah, yeah. I'll try it, but they didn't grow as neatly as I like. You know what I mean? When you put them in vertically, I put them right where the stake is and then everything. Whereas when I did that, they're a little bit unruly. Yeah, cool. I didn't do exactly what I wanted. So that was a hard year in the garden. Heaven forbid, the a-ruly garden. I mean, I guess if it's difficult to dig, like that's a useful strategy. I'm not sure if that is like a circumstance strategy. Yeah right. Like everywhere I've been like you just dig it down. You just put it in the ground. You plant them deep. I've just seen that. And then you you're either training them up a string, a trellis or a stake. Yeah. Fair enough. Oh I'm so excited. Just it's just tweaked to me what we're about to walk into. You know we're just coming out of winter now. I know it's pretty exciting. Yeah it is exciting. It is very exciting. Yeah. Just when we're talking about soil, so obviously you would compost as well at home. Yes, yeah. So how important is our soil? Really important. So, yeah. We're kind of really farming soil here, aren't we, as well? Yeah, so there's a few different ways you can think about soil. Yeah. One of the ways you can think about it is looking after your soil is like a form of animal husbandry, because the soil is actually a home to a whole lot of... critters we can't see, so microorganisms, bacteria and fungi and protozoans. Yeah. But it's also home to things we can see, which we generally call the macroinvertebrates, macro meaning like big invertebrates, things without a backbone. So there's a lot of things living in the soil. It is a home for those things. And all those microorganisms and the macroinvertebrates, they all make nutrients available to the plant and feed the plants. And so there's a complicated relationship between the plants and the soil. So feeding the soil will feed the plants. Also, feeding your plants and looking after your plants will feed the soil. So it's a whole ecosystem. A couple of other things that are really important for soil. So never work your soil when it's wet. Ideally, never have bare soil. Ideally, have like a living or a dead root in the soil at all times. It's very hard on a large scale to do this, to do mulching, but we do use mulches to cover the surface of the soil. There's a lot of benefits of using mulch. from a soil structure point of view, from preventing water loss, feeding the soil with organic matter fertility, like there's a lot of, also disease suppression can be achieved through using mulch. So yeah, you're really like looking after the soil. And I guess if you think that like a couple of centimetres of soil can take up to 2000 years to form from rock. So. Even when you're washing your veggies, if you're washing them outside and the soil that washes off them goes back into the soil, like that's doing the planet a favour. I've joked to Avril about this, that if we ever moved, I'd take the soil with me. Yeah, because such a resource. Because you've worked so hard on your soil, yeah. It's literally like our society's wealth is like built on soil when you think about it. Like we really rely on it. And it's a finite resource. I don't think a lot of people really fully understand that. Isn't there a very alarming stat out there that were only so many harvests away, like soil harvests away, we've only got so many... Yeah, like 60 or something. Yeah, something silly. Alarming. Well, alarming, that kind of I didn't, I'd never thought about before because that's a bit scary. It's really so by composting. Yes. Yeah, which is that that's where we started, right? Yeah. fantastic amendment to add to your soil because it's rich in nutrients and carbon and also in microorganisms. And this is where soil-based cultivation is really important. There have been calculations done that if we increase the soil carbon levels across the whole globe, we could use up all the carbon dioxide, the excess carbon dioxide that is causing climate change. can do by just growing in soil at home. Back to the composting, yeah, it's really fantastic. Like, cannot recommend it enough. Probably the main thing with composting at home that people fall into the trap of is not adding enough carbon, like not enough dead stuff, not enough brown stuff. Yeah. That's what I do, I always struggle with that. So you know what I do? I just bury it really deep when it hasn't finished breaking down. That's a great strategy. That's going to, yeah. That's an already better goodie. Because I don't know what I'm doing. Yeah. Our great aunt, that's how she composted. She just buried her food scraps under the garden. It was a game changer. It worked. Yes. We did talk to Mark Valencia, remember about that. He does, so we follow, he has his own YouTube and it's self sustainable me. Self-sufficient me. And there was a whole segment about that, about burying. And he would even do fish bones and everything. Like it was great. We had a good chat room. So I mean, it doesn't get much easier than that in terms of compost. store. I'm also now, like a crazy person, scoop up all the leaves. Well actually my darling father and stepmother do it for me. They're in O'Connor and they drop all these beautiful leaves. They collect all the bags and then every time I just throw in some of the leaves now when I'm throwing in a bucket. And you've also mulched with the leaves as well. Yeah I've gone over them at the lawnmower and then mulch. Yeah they're fantastic. Yeah the leaves they are a great source of carbon. Absolutely fantastic. Because people rake them up from their garden beds. Yep. People blow them away. I'm like, They're blowing away. Come back. And actually in Canberra, it's really useful to collect those leaves because too many leaves washing into the lakes around Canberra can actually cause kind of a bit of eutrophication, like they're a bit too nutrient rich and so they can lead to problems in the waterways. So actually keeping them in the soil, collecting them and using them in compost and in your garden is really great. It's such a valuable resource. So some of your micro greens, that's as well? Or there for your own use? Sometimes. So I've got some restaurant customers that do buy vegetables from me from time to time when I have them. And I do grow some things for, like I've got one customer that I'm growing some things for. But generally the vegetables are for us because we've got a quarter acre, like a thousand square metres, but we really don't have enough space to be growing vegetables for selling. Fair enough. And do you grow nearly all of your own produce? We grow a lot. I wouldn't say... You've got 54 fruit trees, don't you? Yeah, we do. We've got a lot of fruit trees. That's fantastic. I'm very jealous. I don't have one. I don't even think I have one. I've got six. One of them fruits. That's great though. I need to get more fruit trees. I get the most fruit from the ornamental plants out the front. Oh wow. That's so good though. That is funny because they're not even meant to be edible, right? I know, but I will feed my family anything. Yeah, I think they're ornamental. Yes, I think you can eat them. Look, it's a low flesh to seed ratio. Yeah, they're kind of like a cherry plant. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah, I can't. I just loved chatting to you today. Oh, we could go on. I'm so excited about the tomorrow. You know, every now and then we hear these little bits of information and all of a sudden you go, I'm doing that wrong, I'm doing that wrong. So I love growing from seed. It's where my journey started. Fiona, thank you so much. Oh, thanks, Avril. Thanks Bernadette. It's been really fun. Yeah, I've loved every second of it. Yeah, really fun. Great. That's it. Okay, beautiful. Okay. Beautiful. Okay, Avril, how did you find that? Oh my lord, I just know that I am getting a heat mask. I've got a couple. Because I don't have a heat mat. Yes, I'll send you a link. Oh. Yeah, get a heat mat. Yeah. But like Fiona says, you don't necessarily have to go that far. What did you learn, Bernadette? What was your take home today? A lot. I was quite encouraged by the great example as a female gardening presence in the local gardening community and the things that she's done for her students and the kids out there. But also I was probably, if I'm being honest, the most interesting part to me was the... where she really dove deep into the nitty-gritty of how she gets her tomatoes started. Just basically my whole dream and goal is everything she's doing. She's got a quarter acre block out in Ainslie, 54 fruit trees, she's got rabbits that prepare the beds for her, she's producing all that for her family and even some extra as well at times. But specialises. She has beehives as well. Beehives. I have heard so many people say, well I can't, I think you were one of them in the beginning as well, I couldn't have a beehive, in my garden. Like why not? Absolutely you can do. And now I'm hiving with the best of them. You're hiving. You were making it. It's out there on the table. Fiona just walked past it and commented on it. So she asked for a tour of my garden. I was so embarrassed. I'm like here's my dead plants. Here's my failures. Did you like the way I went, Brendan what was this one? And you were like it's a fuchsia. It'll come back to life. I did like how you were like. standing up for me like, oh, this bed really pumps in screen. I did say that to Max. This will be really baggy. It is. It's a great bed because you've just got an abundance. Like the ecosystem in there is spectacular. My little set forget. Yeah, because all your daily bulbs comes up like, oh, beautiful. I do think that you do need an artichoke in there. I reckon an artichoke would. And she has a genuine connection. to the beginnings of permaculture in Australia, which I actually got a little bit starstruck when she was telling us about that. And you said Fiona, you must be so proud to be part of Australian history. Because she is. She is. And then she was kind enough to have a chat to us. And we're desperate to have a chat with her again because we couldn't stop chatting. Could we have? We couldn't stop chatting and we chat for an hour. So when we ask people to come and chat to us, we tell them the time frame. It's for an hour. The hour was up and we still had a lot to talk about. And Fiona kindly offered to come back and chat to us again and invited us to her farm. So we will do all of the above. So we're pretty excited. Knowing that Fiona started her business where it originally started at a school fundraiser. Talk about grassroots. I was really impressed with that. I was really I really thought that's you know. Quite ahead of her time though because I mean she's talking about microgreens back in 2013 and that feels like a relatively new movement in the culinary world to me. Yeah yeah anyway yes no we had a great a great chat with Fiona we really hope that you enjoyed that chat today with us. Let us know what you want to hear next. And until next time, Sadie Chums. Slán lath agus. Go mán chod. Goof mán chod.