Hear how Rev Canon David Jennings once got locked in a cell, the highs and lows of being a parish priest, balancing family life, and the most important part of a priest’s job. Being a Church of England rector for over 27 years, Rev Canon David certainly has plenty of knowledge and experiences to share with us on this episode.
If you have any questions, here’s how to get in touch:
Instagram – @liftingthelidfuneralpodcast
Email – Liftingthelid@gseller.co.uk
Website – www.gseller.co.uk/podcast
Watch the episode on YouTube: Lifting The Lid - YouTube
Hear how Rev Canon David Jennings once got locked in a cell, the highs and lows of being a parish priest, balancing family life, and the most important part of a priest’s job. Being a Church of England rector for over 27 years, Rev Canon David certainly has plenty of knowledge and experiences to share with us on this episode.
If you have any questions, here’s how to get in touch:
Instagram – @liftingthelidfuneralpodcast
Email – Liftingthelid@gseller.co.uk
Website – www.gseller.co.uk/podcast
Watch the episode on YouTube: Lifting The Lid - YouTube
Hi, I'm Andy Eeley, Senior Funeral Director for G Seller Independent Funeral Directors. And we've been serving bereaved families since 1910. I'm sure you're all well aware there's lots of different myths, taboos and misconceptions around what happens behind the scenes within the funeral profession. So we decided to put together this series of podcasts to answer those questions and hopefully dispel those myths. So please do like, share and subscribe and send those questions, send them to liftingthelid@gseller.co.uk and we will do our absolute best to answer them for you. It genuinely is Our Family Caring For Your Family. Welcome to the latest episode of Lifting The Lid. Today I have with me the Canon David Jennings. Welcome. How are you? I'm absolutely fine, Andy, and looking forward to this very much. Brilliant. Okay, well, we'll see how it goes. Yeah, maybe not. So, David, a canon. Tell us your story. How on earth do you become a canon? Well, it's a gift that's given by the bishop, usually in recognition for what you have achieved or what you've done over a period of time. But I wasn't made a canon until 2003. I was ordained in 1974. Wow. Okay. In Worcester Cathedral. And the Bishop of Leicester made me an honorary canon of Leicester Cathedral in 2003. And then he made me canon theologian in 2010. Wow. Being ordained, I've always wondered this, what does it entail? Well, I had five years of training, so I was at Durham to begin with, doing philosophy and church history, and then I did theology at King's College London, during which I had to learn New Testament Greek in one year. And then I did a pastoral year at St Augustine's in Canterbury, where I opted to work for that year in Canterbury Prison. Okay. And I often think that I probably learned more that year in the prison than I did the previous four years studying theology, philosophy and church history. Absolutely. Do you have to take exams in that? Oh, yes, at the Durham course. I had to do a thesis at the end of that course, and then I went to London and it was three years. Then I took the Bachelor of Divinity degree. Okay. And then I did a couple of extra papers and was awarded an Associate of King's College. So those are the degrees I did before ordination. And then after ordination, I did a Master of Philosophy degree in marketing at Loughborough University. At the business school? Yeah. But you still maintain you learned the most in the prison? The prison I learned a lot. I actually got locked in a cell once. Really? Yeah. Well, it wasn't for very long, but I did ask the governor whether he actually thought I was an inmate, and he said, do you really want an answer to that? It was difficult to get into because the Church of England hadn't actually done this before for ordinance in training to go and stay, visit a prison. And so they had to invent a title, and they invented the title catechist. We were to be a catechist into the prison. And the first day we went, there were three of us at the gate in Canterbury Prison. A guy called Fred said, I have to phone the governor to let you in. And he phoned the governor and he said, I've got three anarchists here that want to come into the prison. So your role on a day to day, being a minister, being a cannon, what does it involve? Well, I'm a retired priest now, so I'm rather selective about what I do and what I can do. But I was rector of Burbage for 27 years. Before that, I was vicar of Snibstone in Coalville, all right? And before that, I was director of a multi faith organisation in Hamsworth, an assistant priest in one of the churches in Handsworth, and before that occurred, in Halesowen. So when I was rector of Burbage, I mean, it's full on, really. Burbage was a very big parish, some 20,000 people in the parish. So there was a lot of administrative work. Of course, there was also the problem and the difficulties of having to deal with funeral directors, which I just took in my stride. We'll come back to that. A lot of visiting. I had a policy of anybody that asked for baptism for their children, I would always visit personally. And again, when it came to bereavement, always visit the family, unless they were hundreds of miles away, which then became somewhat difficult. There was the conducting of church services. We had a lot of those. Every priest in the Church of England is obliged to say morning prayer and evening prayer every day of the week. So my day would always begin in church with morning prayer and end with evening prayer on every day of the week. And you'd be planning the big services as well as the routine Sunday services. Brilliant. This is quite a journey to get to this. I mean, what are the highs and lows of it? You mentioned the funeral director there. I hope that's not a low. Well, lowish, no. Well, if I was honest, there are funeral directors and there are funeral directors. Okay. Now, I brought a list. I would publish that later. Yeah, I wouldn't do that. The highs are meeting people and being with people. And also, I come from tradition in the Church of England, where the conducting of worship was seen to be very important. I come from what would be called a very high church background and tradition. So there's lots of ceremony and ritual which added something to it, and lots of very beautiful music. So those were very much the highs. The lows were having to deal with a lot of the admin and the frustration around that and the amount of time it would take up. So that was somewhat problematic. And then there was also that other big issue about how you balance family life with being a priest, who should be available at all times and in all places, and sometimes that was quite difficult. I decided that I wouldn't take a day off in the week, but every month my wife and I would take four days off and just get away out of the parish to get some space where we weren't just at beck and call of everybody. Although the job in many ways was to be at beck and call of everybody. This is kind of like us in some respects. It's sort of 24/7, isn't it? You constantly need to be available for the parishioners, do you have any help with that? I did have a succession of curates, but technically they were in training. They weren't expected to do the job at the same level that the parish priest was expected to do the job. You were there to help train them in ministry by example and encouragement, and they also had to do some further work as well within the diocese. So the curates were helpful, of course, but they technically were continuing their training before they took on an incumbency of their own. So although you're retired, allegedly, are you still part of the community there in Burbage? No. You take a funeral? No. Well, the rule is that when you retire from a parish, you move away from the parish so that you don't queer the pitch for your successor. Like myself, if you've been there for 27 years, people get to know you and they want you to do things, certainly, and that could be problematic for your successor. So the rule is that you do actually move away. When I retired and moved to Market Bosworth, there was an interregnum. Well, the parish priest, who actually was one of my former curates, was unwell, very unwell, and so the bishop asked if I would help look after the parish, and then when he moved on, if I would take on looking after the parish until a new parish priest was found, which is what I did. There was now a new rector in Market Bosworth, so I don't have to do anything there. Brilliant. But I'm still part of the community. In fact this morning, I'm a director of the Community Interest Company and I've been at a meeting this morning about that. It's quite interesting because you talked about being in Burbage, part of the parish 27 years there. You are still requested from our perspective, a lot of families do wish to have you lead their funeral service. I think it's the devil, you know. But it's one of those I mean, I know full well that there's sometimes problems associated with that, but we can't just ask you directly, can we? No. The last thing I want to be seen is rather like a tin of beans on the supermarket shelf where somebody just comes along and pulls it off and buys you. There are certain protocols that need to be acknowledged. So I still do quite a lot of funeral services in different parts of the diocese. I have what's called the Bishop of Leicester's permission to officiate in the diocese, so I can officiate in parishes where there is an incumbent by their invitation, and if they're away on holiday, they might ask you if I can take a wedding or a funeral, or if I can take a service there. And then also, I'm called on a lot to take services where there is a vacancy, because there is a shortage of priests. So I get around quite a lot across the diocese, which is great, because I've not got the responsibility of running the place. I can go in, say what I like, do what I like and run out the back door. Nobody could get at me. Brilliant. That's brilliant. I'm really interested in a Church of England funeral, how you go about this, your role with meeting the family, how you structure that service, how do you do it? Well, the first thing, of course, is there is a request from the funeral director, which is important, although sometimes that's short circuited a little. If you know the family and they might say, a loved one has died, we would like you to take the funeral. I would then say, you have to talk to the funeral director because you have a job to do to get a lot of things in both in terms of the church, crematorium, if that's appropriate, cars, a whole range of things have to be put together. So it's quite an onerous responsibility that a funeral director has. We're just one part of that chain. So when I get a request to conduct a funeral service from my parish, I would always go and visit the bereaved, as I said, unless there's a problem with that. There was a funeral I did at Blackfordby the other week where the nearest relative lived in Telford, so that wasn't easy. I couldn't go and visit so it's done another way. But always visit and begin to listen. The most important thing about a priest's job is listening and helping and supporting. So you'll find sometimes there's a story that's being told, and sometimes the story can be very difficult, particularly if it's an unexpected death or if it's a child's death or a young person's death. And it's most important not to go in there with answers. A lot of clergy, I think, with the greatest of respect to my brothers and sisters in ministry, a lot of them think they have answers to all of the problems. They do not have answers. You need to listen to people's story, their journey, their anxieties, their frustrations, their fears, their concern. A whole range of emotions are there. So you spend as long a time as is necessary with them, and then at some point, you will begin to talk to them about the order of service. Now, this is the priest's job, not the funeral director's job. Sometimes this gets a little bit confused. It does get a bit clouded. I always had a rule which I said to I'll say to a funeral director, you do not talk to the family about the order of service. And in return I won't talk to them about the type of coffin they have, the handles they have on it or the cars they want. That's the deal. Right? But what that means is recognising your responsibility is that we have to deal with it in a professional way as well. So you answer the call as soon as possible. If you're not around, you must set up a process where the funeral director can get in touch with someone from the church that is needed, whether it's an assistant curate or whether it's a church warden. But then that needs to be done. I was quite meticulous about that. I'd send letters to all funeral directors if I was going away on holiday and tell them who the contact person would be. And then you need to do it professionally by setting out the order of service so that it's quite clear and that it is copied to the funeral director as well as to the family, to see that that is know what's going on. Yeah. So the funeral director knows what's going on, the family knows what's going on and then that can be amended. If you do that in good time and it should be done in good time, that can be amended and changed, that meets their needs so that by the time you get to the actual day of the funeral, both the family and the funeral director are happy with what's been arranged and agreed. Yeah. And I think that's really admirable, the fact that that communication is vital, we've got one chance to get it right and we need to talk. We can't do it alone. It's got to be together. Quick question in respect to a funeral service and people families that you're looking after, I mean, do they have to be of the Church of England? Do they have to be of this parish or can you look after anyone? Well, yes and no. I never worried about whether they identified themselves as Church of England or not. If they requested the ministry of the Church of England and therefore the parish priest or one of his or her assistants, then there are certain requirements. In other words, there is a set Church of England service, but it's sufficiently flexible enough to be able to do things that the family probably particularly wanted. So I was quite open about that, but it was very flexible. So they should come from your parish or they should be attendees at your church and they would be on the electoral roll, which means they have identified as that parish. You shouldn't conduct the funeral service of people outside of the parish unless the incumbent of that parish actually asks you to do it or is happy for you to do it. So again, it's communication and treating people with respect, their position as a parish priest of another parish. So you deal with that way. But I was very open, I never even worried whether people had a faith or not. If they want the Church of England and if they want myself, by implication, then I was quite happy to go along with that and the key word, I think, in all of this is support and flexibility. In other words, there were certain things that would be wanted, and it's important you meet those. As far as is decent and legal, there would be certain limitations. But no, you can be flexible, particularly when it comes to music. And also there were some maybe I shouldn't be saying this, but there were some clergy that do go on rather a long time. Okay. Yeah. I'm not commenting. No, and I understand that and it's important you don't because nobody wants to be there, do they? That's the other recognition. Nobody really wants to be there. They would rather their loved one was still with them. Yes. So do not make it more problematic for them by lengthening the service beyond what is actually requested and required and at the same time do not try to do something to them. Some people seem to think that this is an opportunity to convert people to something that is an absolute no no. That is an abuse of people in a vulnerable position and situation, namely loss and bereavement. Agreed. Yeah. But I have to say not all clergy are quite like that. It's been one of my problems for the past 40 odd years I've been ordained, I think. Absolutely so. I mean, when you meet with a family, a bereaved family, from your perspective, is it upsetting? Do you find it difficult? How do you go about having those conversations? I think you have to recognise that the person you are dealing with is bereaved and that carries a lot with it in terms of emotion and so therefore one has to be as objective as one can without appearing to be callous or distant. The particular difficulty is always when it comes to a child or a very young person and a tragic, very unexpected death, whether that be a road accident. I mean, there was one young boy, only twelve years of age, I actually witnessed the road accident and I knew he had died but I went and fetched his mother to take her to the hospital knowing that her son had died but I couldn't tell her that because the doctor hadn't actually certified the death. That was a very difficult car journey to the hospital with the mother of this twelve year old boy and that's happened two or three times, actually not with a twelve year old boy, of an accident I've witnessed, but you have to be incredibly sensitive to that. Quite recently I did the funeral service of a man I knew very well, I had a great deal of respect for. He was only 35 and he was killed in a road accident on the M6 with a drunk driver coming up the wrong side of the M6. Right, okay. And he was only 35 and I was due to conduct their marriage next month in fact. In November I had to conduct his funeral service. Yeah, that must take its toll. And his fiance was still injured when she came to the funeral service, she was in the car and I've tried to be in touch with her quite a lot since to just find out how she's doing and that's important as well. If you feel the family need it again, you have to be quite sensitive to what people are saying to you. Some people, when the funeral service is complete, they want it then to be complete. They don't want to be revisiting that and you have to respect that sometimes you get a sense that there are still people want some kind of contact. What we did at Burbage, I'm not saying this is the best thing to do or the only thing to do, but we used to send people every year an invitation to an All Souls Requiem Mass that we had in church. And we asked for people to identify the name of a loved one they would like mentioning in that service. It got to the point towards the end of my ministry there, where we were reading about 300 names at that service, but you would also offer them the possibility, at no charge, of entering their loved one's name in the Book of Remembrance. And then every anniversary of that person's death, their loved one's name will be printed on the weekly church notice sheet. And whoever was leading the prayers on that day would mention that loved one, so they would know that the name was there and that the name would be mentioned every year in the prayers during the main Sunday service. And we felt that was an important thing for people as well as coming to the Requiem. That's a level of aftercare, isn't it? It's quite important for the family, yes. But I said it's a recognition that sometimes people feel well, particularly again, that you can't be exclusive or specific about these things, but if it's quite an elderly person, then people feel well, they've had a good life. I did a funeral last week in Hugglescote of a 95 year old lady who I knew very well but people have said she'd had a really good life and it had come to its natural end and that's fine. In other situations, people will, there's a sense in which you never do not grieve, but the grief changes over time, but it never goes away. Some people seem to say to others, well, time will heal. It doesn't, actually. It changes, but it never heals for someone that you love particularly dearly and closely. It never goes away. No, I agree. So we've mentioned that you're looking after bereaved families there and you're soaking in this emotion, and yet you potentially can get emotionally attached. Have you got any level of support for yourself from within the church? Is there any bereavement care for you, taking all this grief on from other families? You get a lot of support in terms of people expressing themselves, either verbally or through writing. When we lost our daughter, who was only 42 last November, and a lot of people wrote and were very kind, but there's been no...I even got a card from the bishop, that I was aware of, no specific ongoing support. We have a very good family, so there's been a lot of support within the family. And I have to say, and I'm not plugging G Seller & Co by any means, but they have been absolutely brilliant. Brilliant. There you go. That wasn't a plug. No, you can pay me later. It's quite an interesting question. I know, from a funeral directing perspective, there's been years and years historically where we've not really looked after ourself and it's become a bit more forefront that we need to take care of ourselves. So other groups that work with bereaved families today look after themselves. It's quite interesting from the church perspective. Well, it's interesting, the funeral I was telling you about the 35 year old gentleman killed on the M6. I did his funeral service just ten days after our own daughter had died. Really? Yeah. But I knew I had to do it because I knew him so well and I was going to conduct his wedding. I never told the family that we'd lost our daughter, never told his fiance. That would just been totally inappropriate and again, an intrusion. But it wasn't easy. No, it wasn't easy at all. I've got one final question, and off the back of that, it seems... You want to know the Lottery winners? I'd love to know that, yeah. If you've got a good connection, how long does it take you to put a funeral service together? It's quite a simple question. Oh, it can take a long time. A lot depends, of course, on what you're dealing with. But, I mean, sometimes where things are a bit more complicated, and I use that word advisedly, not in any sense a criticism or judgement that you have to spend the time. There is no time limit, no time limit at all.
And if it means I get up at 05:00 every morning, and if it means I work from five till seven in the morning dealing with something like this, then that, to me, is time well spent. Absolutely, yeah. Look after your parishioners, yeah. David, thank you. Thank you. For your time and thank you for being with us. I think that was a good insight into the Church of England there. The ins and outs and what they get up to. If you have any questions, any further queries, please, like share, subscribe and send them to liftingthelid@gseller.co.uk and we'll see you next time. Thank you. Thank you.