Courageous Crossroads with KG: Confidence in God Through Every Season

KG is a South African pastor, husband, and father whose life reflects a deep and hard-won confidence in God. Raised without a Christian upbringing, he came to faith through the witness of his cousin, was drawn into church community, and ultimately pursued theological training at Baptist Theological College in Johannesburg. Now serving in ministry in Limpopo, KG brings together pastoral conviction, thoughtful humility, and a moving personal story shaped by obedience, sacrifice, and grace. In this episode of Courageous Crossroads, recorded on a back porch in Shikwaru, South Africa, KG shares his remarkable journey to Christ, his call into ministry, his courageous decision to marry his wife despite cultural and financial obstacles, and the beautiful story of becoming a devoted father to his stepdaughter, Rato. Centered on his simple but powerful definition of courage as “confidence in God,” this conversation is a warm,
honest, and faith-filled testimony about trusting the Lord through family tension, calling, marriage, and everyday acts of obedience.

Thank you for listening! We hope you feel inspired and encouraged by our conversation today. If you did, be sure to share this episode with others.

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See you in the next episode! Be blessed!

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:15

Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics. A look into what motivates us to step out in courage and the everyday bravery of men and women like you. In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this question: What's the most courageous thing you've ever done? And now your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Hey everybody, welcome back to the Courageous Crossroads Podcast. Now I'm talking to you from South Africa. I can't wait for you to hear my next guest. He's a gentleman that I just happened to meet on this trip. My family comes back and forth to South Africa and the United States quite a bit, and we're lucky enough to get to know a lot of people around here. And I made a new friend, and he's a pastor, and I got to talking to him over dinner and invited him to be on the podcast, and he was gracious enough to carve out the time. This episode is actually done in two separate sittings. So if you sense a little bit of separation between the beginning of the interview and the end of the interview, that's why. But um KG is a remarkable man. We got to know him and his daughter while his wife was off taking care of some business things. And uh, what an amazing guy. And he's got a lot to say about courage from a different perspective. So without further ado, here is my friend KG. Okay, well, I am with my new friend KG sitting on a back porch in Shikwaru in South Africa. KG, thank you so much for being on the program today. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for inviting me. Um, yeah, looking forward to it. So Danielle was over last night, and you said um you got one daughter, one child? Yes. You got one.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

And how old is Rato? She's 12. Okay. Uh but she's turning 13 in September. But whenever she says you ask her uh her age, she always says, I'm 10-13. It's like she can't wait till 10 13. So it even it it even it even messes with me because when someone asks me how old is she, I have to think and pause for a moment. So she's 12. She wants you to know that 13 is coming.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

When's her birthday?

SPEAKER_02 2:33

Uh September the 4th. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Well, she's got a little ways to wait, so she's really banking.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

I love it.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Okay, so you and I got a chance to meet, and we got to meet Rato a couple of nights ago at another friend's house. It was lovely to meet you. Yeah. And then Danielle bumped into you guys last night. Yes. I know that your wife is away. She's on business, yes, taking care of some things. Yes. And so you were so funny talking about feeding your daughter and all this stuff. And so Danielle came home last night and she said, Jeff, we've got to have them over for supper tonight. And I said, What's going on? And she said, He was he was so worried, wringing his hands. He's got one more night to try to find something to feed his daughter.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

So um, so when I spoke to your wife yesterday, um, she reached out to me and I said, We're just getting pizza and we're back on our way back home. And I said, That's what we're eating for tonight. That's what she's having for lunch tomorrow at school. And when she came back, she ate pizza. And the good thing is, with the past few days, with my wife not being around, um, we've gotten invites invites from friends, and um, that was helpful. I can cook, but when my wife is here, she's the master chef. Is she is she a good cook? Yeah, very good cook. Okay, definitely, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

So I think that has discouraged me from cooking. So South Africa cuisine baffles me because I have not been able to figure out all of the spices and everything. What is what's the thing that your wife makes that you absolutely love? Mint. Mints.

SPEAKER_02 4:14

So to say what that is. So mints, um, it's meat, and you could say it's shredded. I've never really tried to think how it's made. But you could think of meat that is shredded, um, and or sort of like uh meat that you see in a voss. Okay. Um, or a sausage, and then it's just not in a sausage. So she cooks that and she can cook it in different ways. Sometimes she'll put a lot of gravy into it, sometimes it will just be like that, dry. Then we have salads around it, and she will cook it with different things. Uh, do you have pop? Yes, pop, of course. Yeah, you can have it with pop. But most people like to have it with spaghetti. Okay. So mints and spaghetti, yeah. So, yeah, so I love her mints. Well, not only her mints, but uh I I think I've had to figure out if they were to ask me if there's one thing your wife could cook for you every day, mints would be that. Because she can cook a whole lot of things. Sometimes she just comes with something new, and I'm like, we've never had this before. And I always say to her, it's like when I compliment your food and I say this is really good, it's like the other one was not, but that's how good it is because the next thing you cook another thing is like, oh, this is good as well.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

This is good or better than the last thing. Well, that's wonderful. So, um, is this your daughter likes the same thing? The mints? Ah, my daughter likes a lot of things, but the one She would probably come with me to Mokopani and eat the McDonald's, wouldn't she?

SPEAKER_02 5:41

For sure. Um, the one thing that came to mind is it's not food, but she likes uh watermelon McFees. Drink that you get watermelon McFees. McFreeze. McFees. So that's what they call it. So McFees. So it's uh it's a drink um made with watermelon and uh uh acid, of course, and um uh acidic, I mean. Uh and there's a fizz to it when you drink it, apparently. So she loves that. Anytime, and dunged wings. Uh the ones that you get at KFC, um, they are dunged in a sauce. Um, it's very nice. Dunged hot wings. Oh, like hot wings.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

I love so in the States we call them buffalo wings. Okay. Is that to say they don't call them buffalo wings? We do have that. Uh it's a spicy, hot kind of sauce that comes with it.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

Buffalo is just for wings, but uh in terms of sauces, depends now on what you want. Okay. Um, you could get depends also the restaurant that you go to. Uh, but yeah, we do have buffalo wings. We also have chicken wings. So I love all of it.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

Yeah, you know, I was telling you about my weight before we started this. Yeah, so you can tell. I love to eat. Yeah. So, okay. Well, it's so wonderful to have you on the podcast, KG. And we here at the Courageous Crossroads, we settle on the topic of courage in general, but we come down to the one question: what's the most courageous thing you've ever done? So I'll ask you that question here in a minute. But beforehand, I think the audience needs to get to know you a little bit. We just met, and I was just taken with you and your daughter. So I'm I'm so grateful to have you over here. Yeah. The thing I know about you is that you're a pastor. Yes. And that you're a great dad and a wonderful husband, too. And about you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:32

But could you please tell you the Lord for that?

SPEAKER_00 7:34

Yeah. Yeah, amen. Well, can you tell our listeners a little bit about you, where you come from, what you do, your family, that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_02 7:43

Yeah, awesome. Um, so I'll try to make it short. Uh, because I realize they enjoy conversations with you, so we could go on. Yes, which is great. So um, everyone knows me as KG, but my full name is Khalemo. Spell it K-G-A-L-E-M-O. And you pronounce it Khalemo. It has a rough sound, Khalemo. So it's not so you don't put efforts when you say it. For us, it's natural, Khalemo. But someone who's not familiar with our language will struggle a bit and will try to make emphasis on the rough sound, yeah, which just comes natural to us, Kalemo. And say name Rama Lazwa, but I I I love it when everyone calls me KG because even if we meet for the first time, the next time when we meet, you don't struggle to figure out my name again. Because you don't remember that KG. Yeah, easy to remember. Yeah, I mean, even Jeff. Jeff is a very popular name. Yeah, it is for sure. Definitely, yeah. So, yeah, I was so of course you would know by now in South Africa we have uh provinces, and like you, you guys have states. So I don't know what's the equivalent of a province to um America, but uh I'm from Ghauteng, that's one province, and many people might know Johannesburg. Okay, so Johannesburg is a city in Gauteng, and I was born in Pretoria, so it's another city in Gauteng. So Pretoria and the suburb that I grew up in, it's Atregeville. So there's a lot of names that are probably new to you. I love it. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

I got Johannesburg and Pretoria. Yes, and we're in, as we're speaking, we are nearest to the town of Mokopani. Yes, and that's in the am I saying it correctly, the province of Limpopo? 100%.

SPEAKER_02 9:34

Okay. Yes, yeah. So you're spot on there. So yeah, um, so basically Limpopo is not far from Gauteng. So where we are now, if we're to drive to my house, we are two hours 35 minutes away, which is not bad. Because I've had people mention in the states, uh, because um just to say this as well, you know, um, I would always think of the states in terms of when someone says I'm in Texas, someone says I'm in New York, I'm thinking they're close uh states, you know. Yeah, but I know in your mind already, like, yo long wage, yeah. Until now I got uh to have conversations with people who come from those places, and then they give you a clear picture of what that looks like. So I'm like, okay, so in popo, how things not bad. Yeah, so um we're two hours 35 minutes away. That's where I was born and bred. Um, I went to my primary school there, high school there, and um uh I'm just trying to figure out the timeline in terms of what to say, major events. And um I I I studied sports administration when I finished with high school. And I did a certificate and I graduated uh with a certificate. And how I came to know the Lord was through my cousin called Given Mashigina. And this was between the year 2011-2012, around that time. Okay. Uh well, I was not recording or keeping records, but I I can remember uh clearly the journey I had with him. So at that point, we're done with high school. Did your family was your family a Christian family? Were you raised in the channel? I think that's important that I mentioned my family. Um is not Christian, I was not raised Christian, never went to church in my life. If two times probably I've been to church was because of like an Easter event and someone invites me and they say, just come, we're having some a special service at church. But that was it.

SPEAKER_00 11:33

So what it wasn't a different faith, it was just uh agnostic.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

Yeah, yeah. Well, there are some who um hold to a different faith. Okay, yeah, but it was never really practiced. So uh it's only of we belong to this uh sect, but it was never practiced whereby I can say I wanna follow that, okay, even though I didn't know what it looked like. Right. Um so church was not a big deal, um basically. Um so um I don't know if you've heard of ZCC. Yeah, I have. Yeah, so my family definitely they identify if they were to look at a religious um institution, that would be ZCC for them. So and it's m mostly it's for keeping your membership with them. They are devout ZCC followers and people who practice and believe in um the leader and the the doctrine and all that entails uh with ZCC.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

So I think that's a yeah that's an interesting thing to just make note of because there's a lot of people that profess Christianity, but they do show up on Christmas and Easter, and you know, it's wool sweaters and potluck and you know that sort of thing, but it's not really a devout faith per se. And the same with people of the Jewish tradition, you know. Sometimes I would think, well, if you're Jewish, you're you're devout, everybody would be devout, and not necessarily so. There are some people that are ethnically Jewish, they were raised that way, but they're not really so that's the same thing with your hundred percent.

SPEAKER_02 13:08

I mean, even in the area that I grew up in, you have a it was not only my household, but you have a lot of people. And how do you know if this person is a ZCC person or member? They wear a specific uniform, brown khaki, and they have a badge, it's green. Probably show you some pictures um when we done later. Um, and so with that, regalia and um the badge, you know, this person goes to ZCC or fellowships there at ZCC. And I have we had a lot of them around the neighborhood, but as you said, it's never impacted me, especially in regards to faith and a relationship with God. And um there are many reasons as to why, but overall there was never a big influence in terms of a relationship with God, um a lifestyle of going to church and being with other members of the faith, whatever faith it is. So that was not a reality in my life at that point. So uh we I'm with Given Mashikina, we probably four four years out of high school, and um, we're just trying to figure out life, careers, and um at this point, Given is starting his professional football career, so it it it's at the early stage, so he's away from home, he's part of an academy, and he always comes comes back home whenever there's a break. So this one time he's coming back uh from the academy and there's a break, and so just an ordinary day. And I just decided you know what, let me go visit him. So who's Given? Given is my cousin, um, he's um a son to my dad's older sister. Okay, so we didn't stay in the same houses, so it's he was like uh 15 minutes away drive. Um so I just walked to the house. But uh I just decided let me go visit him. Then I get uh to my uh granny's place, uh that's where he stayed, um, and that's where my dad grew up. Um and by the way, uh my dad and my mom never got married, so I stayed in my grandmother's house with both my mom and her siblings, so that's the setup. So I was the only grandchild, and there were uh seven siblings, eight including my mom. Were you close with your dad, or your dad was not a part of your life? At that point, I was not close. I knew I had a dad, but we're not close. He wasn't around. He wasn't around. And if you if I see him, it's a one-time thing where he's there, um, he just bought stuff for me, and then that's it. So I can remember vividly at some point when we're going to a new grade, and of course, they call everyone on the list and they're just asking, uh, tell us who you are, your name, the name of your father and your mother. At some point, I I realized I think I concluded and I said, I don't have a dad. And I said that in class. That's how uh poor it was, you know, our our relationship. But later in life, of course, I got to understand, you know, adults have issues. Yeah, yes, and sometimes you you can blame the parent who's not uh present, but once you understand and see the dynamics of parenting and um uh breakups, uh you you start to see, okay, I understand, I see, yeah, I see why. A lot of dynamics. So at the right right now, I do have a good relationship with my dad. In fact, he's married to my stepmom. I also have a good relationship with my stepmom, and from their side, uh, I have three siblings. So um I'm I'm an I'm the only child to my dad and my mom, and uh with his uh wife, which is my stepmom, they have other three kids, but we have a great relationship. Um, so in fact, uh both my mother, my stepmom, and my mother-in-law, they've been to one place where they sit talk, we've in took them out for a massage, so that's how it has worked out. Wow, yeah. So grateful for that. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, but back to Given, I think this is important that I share with share this with you. So when I get to my granny's place, guess what uh they are watching? What? Passion of Christ, the movie. Okay. So I've I don't know anything about the movie, I've never heard of the movie. So Given is showing them the movie, and as he's showing them the movie, I get to when I get to my granny's house, it's at the point of ending the movie. Then Given decides, since you're here, let me start the movie again. And I was like, sure, I'm here to visit you. So anything you do, whatever you want to do. Yeah. Then he showed me the movie. As he showed me the movie, he's explaining some major parts. And I can remember I can remember clearly when Jesus, uh the the the actor there, was now taken to be uh uh to get uh the the the beating and scourged and all that, and when he was um uh clammed and then he's explaining why he all that is being done to him, and he said it's because of our sins. I'm like, what does that mean? You know, but that's not for that's the first time you'd heard that. Yes, that's the first time, you know, but he's explaining as if I would understand these things, and by the way, the last time when I saw him, he was not Christian, was not using any Christian um vocabulary, he's not he never spoke about the Lord, we spoke about other things except God. So I think the other thing that intrigued me about him is I could see something is different about him, but I can't figure it out. Yeah, but I like it because he seems um more accessible. I mean, because already for him being where he was, he's sort of like a celebrity. Um, he's doing well, he's starting a professional career, so now I even have more access to him, but I'm seeing a different person and the characteristics that I'm seeing. I love them and I'm enjoying them. So it tells me Christ has been uh beaten for since. Then of course he's explaining what that looks like, why, but I can vividly remember at that point it felt real. It's like I believed him. Of course, I believed him, but I was like, why do I believe him? Why do I believe this is true? Then after the movie, he starts showing me the scriptures. We go to the Sermon on the Mount. He says, Um, God's what God wants us to pray, uh, God wants us to fast. You know, he's you know, like not even deep exegetical or biblical um theology. Yeah, just basics, just giving you the story, yeah. Sermon on the mount, and I'm like, wow, this is amazing. Like the content is the first time I come across this. So I'm like, this is amazing. I've always had a vague belief of God, but I could never pinpoint which God. So at that point, my heart is starting to believe. And I'm like, I think I believe what you're saying. I think this happened in history. Christ is real, all these things that you're explaining about Christ are real. And of course, from that day now, I went back home. I could even sleep over. Then whenever he's around, I'm with him. Because he always has something new to say to me about Christ, and now we even the music is changing now. We live from secular hip-hop. Now we're listening to Christian rap. And I can remember the first pastor that I had. He shared a clip with me from Paul Washer. I mean, like, that's I realized later that that's deep, like that's a deep dive. I mean, reformed, um, theologically um astute, and I'm like, yo. But at the time I didn't realize. Right. And um, of course, uh Paul Washer at that that clip he was speaking about marriage, and he gave an exaggerated, exaggerated scenario, and he says, Um, if you're a husband and um there was a shipwreck, and your mom is on a plank, your daughter's on a plank, your wife is on a plank, and you could only save one. Who would you save? And he says, You save your wife. And I was like, This is new, like everything is like new, and I'm like, What is this? You know that's this is a different way of thinking, of looking at life, marriage, it was all brand, it's all brand new for me. Um and at the time, I'm not even going to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

Yeah, let me ask I'm gonna jump in and ask you a question because this is so intriguing. So C.S. Lewis makes a point that either God's everything or he's nothing. There's no middle ground. He's not a he's not a good, wise teacher, he's not a you know, good friend, he's not a close confidant, that sort of thing. He he never gives us that option. So either you have to say he's the God of the universe or he's the devil from hell or you know, and maniac or something like that, whatever. It sounds to me like when you got switched on by your cousin, sure, you immediately went to the okay, if God's everything, then that redounds to all of this reality. And so I can see how is that was that like definitely and I have a funny story to tell you.

SPEAKER_02 22:49

Okay, in that season as well. So I had a girlfriend, and we're getting to all kinds of shenanigans. Guess what? Immediately, like as you showed me the scriptures and the moral standard we need to uphold, how we need to carry ourselves and live our lives, and just the worldview of sexuality. Uh I remember going to my girlfriend, and I was saying to her, whatever we're doing, we need to stop. And it only, you know, a lot of things in retrospect, you think, and you're like, I could have handled it in a better way, but I was so radical. I said, We need to stop. I mean, you can imagine for us, like, she's shocked. Who's this guy? I mean, we've been doing all this. Yesterday it was funny, and today's fine. All of a sudden, and then I said to her, We need to kneel down and pray, and I prayed our father with her. Wow, but I can I can imagine shame. She was so shocked. Wow, so so, but um, of course, the relationship never worked out, turned sour, and uh, we broke up. But her cousin was dating my uncle's friend, and my uncle's friend was a Christian, is a Christian, not was sorry, he's a Christian, and he's the one who invited me to church. So this is now after my cousin, you know, whenever he's around, I go visit, we sit, we pray, we fast. I can even remember. We're so ready we were so radical, we were even praying for our wives by then. Wow, yeah, we Lord, we're praying for our wives, but I was not going to church because he came for the holidays, then he would go back to the academy, and then as he goes back to the academy, I don't have other Christians or a community around me. So obviously now I'm struggling between this newfound faith and life in the society, but already I could tell the difference. In fact, um I even thought I would have a career as a DJ because I would play music at parties with friends, and you know, we'll get rowdy and all that. So now I had to I had to struggle. I'm like, is the Lord pleased with me going to parties? But of course, you try to reason, like, but God understands I need this money. So but this is the immature believer in me, right? You know, and at some point, slowly but surely I'm making those decisions that are not um are not in line with uh what God demands, and I'm like, okay, I don't think this is working. So what helped me now was now the next step into my uh walk with Christ is Tapelo, the gentleman I mentioned was dating my ex-girlfriend cousin. He said, Come to church. And at this time, he doesn't even know if I'm a Christian or not. He just invited me. And the first invite I didn't go, and not that I didn't want to, just I just forgot, you know. Then we met, we came, uh we crossed paths again, and then he invited me. And I said, Okay, I'll come the next Sunday. Next Sunday, I get ready, put on my formal shirt, chinos, and formal shoes. I he his house was on the next street, a few blocks away. So I walked to his house and then we drove together with his dad to church. And from that Sunday, I started going to church every Sunday.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

I started going to church every Sunday, and at that sermon was compelling, or you just felt like you needed to be there, or you were learning a lot.

SPEAKER_02 26:25

I think you know when you find your people. Like for me, it was like that. That makes sense because at that at that point, even the pastor, the senior pastor, the lead pastor was not present. Majority of the church had gone to a conference, so only a few people were left. And it's not people who always uh get involved in the program. So I wouldn't say the sermon was compelling because I can't even remember what was preached. But I think for me, um it was more of I just found my people. You know, it's like people who believe the same thing I believe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Community, yeah. And the next Sunday, majority of the church members, people who are usually on the program, and um who are more the pillars, you know, the they are more mature. I'm like, oh, okay, there are men who believe this. They believe that uh purity is important, uh, sex before marriage is a sin. So for me, it's like I'm and and I'm an observer. Um if I get into a place, I don't know, people, I just keep quiet and I observe. But um if someone is open and I feel I can be vulnerable with them, I easily open up. But I'm an observer. So I started listening to people as they talk. I'm like, oh, he believes this. They believe this. So that very same church started getting committed, started getting involved. If they need help with anything, I remember my pastor saying we need someone who can help us with a computer, this and that. So I had um just uh I was skilled a bit in um the world of IT, but not deep knowledge. So I would come during the week because I was not working, so just go help out at the church, help them with the PC. Next thing I'm setting up an email for my pastor, he was older um in his uh late 60s. So you can so for him, setting up an email is like a big deal. It's like, yo, you're talented, you're gifted. So I'm I'm sort of becoming like valuable to the church in that sense, you know, and he's using your people and you fit in with futility and all of that sort of thing. And sometimes randomly you'll just ask me, Can you please just research this for me and tell me what it's about? Because now I started hanging around the church. If there's a conference, I'm there, uh weekly Bible study, I'm there, weekly prayer, I'm there, um, Sunday, I'm there. So it's like once I get to do something, I commit. That's how I am. Yeah, yeah, I go all in. So um, of course, even with friends, I'm starting to cut out some friends, but all this is a journey. Yeah, took some time, took time, but I struggled between oh, this is not good company, this is not helping me with my faith. The very same church, I think two years after I was working at a retail store as a um cashier. Then my pastor, because I remember having a conversation with him, and I said, Um, I think our church um needs more teachers. And at that point, I don't even know what's the difference. For me, I kept asking myself, because some people, when they come and they preach, they'll read the text, give you a title, but they don't speak about the title, or they'll veer off from the title. So I'm wondering why they even read the text, you know. I'm not even theologically astute or at all.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

But you're clearly hungry and you're wanting more, so you're noticing, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:57

Yeah, and uh, I would say I'm a thinker, Jenna. That as I said, I'm an observer. So I think through things. I I'm I'm that guy always asks why why is this? Why does this exist? Why are we doing this? You know, why okay? You read this, so I was excited. Maybe the text is speaking about the heavenly places, but you are speaking about faith. And I'm like, so I want to know about these heavenly places, why is it there? So that was the curious me. Yes, I think the the right word is curious. So um, so I would have conversations with my pastor, and at this point now, I'm more closer to him. We have a like a good relationship. Um, if he uh wants me to run any errands, I'm there. Um, I'm like a trusted right-hand man, you know. Yeah, yeah, to the pastor. So um, and also because I'm skilled, um, I'm that guy. If there was an opportunity to do something, I'll do it. I I remember at some point I did a learnership with uh uh on mechanical engineering and I worked at Toyota for some time, um, but only through the learnership when it lapsed we stopped working. So my pastor was driving a Toyota, so I'd be helpful in regards to some things like if we need to adjust the handbrake or change whatever, oil change, basic stuff.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

So for him you're setting up emails, yes, you're working on cars, yes, you're saying you need anybody to preach. Yeah you're you're all in it.

SPEAKER_02 31:21

Well, at this time I'm not preaching, okay, but um I remember my pastor when I said I think we need teachers because so at this on this side of life, I can tell some people are not trained well. Um, and um this also touches to my uh master's uh paper. Uh so my proposal, uh fast forward. So my proposal is about um exposing and teaching expository preaching to untrained church ministers towards building healthy, sustainable churches. Because we have a lot of uh pastors who are behind the pulpit but they are not trained. And um, I think it's Ramesh who says it's only five percent in the world of pastors who are trained and they are practicing. Only five percent in the world. And that's a big that's a big number. Yeah. I would not have thought it was that low. Yeah, five percent of pastors are trained, but the rest of the 95, they're not trained. So um, so um I I'm interested in preaching um um hermenetics, homiletics. Um, I'm still growing as well in that area. I haven't arrived, but definitely that's an area of interest um for me. But my pastor, back to my pastor, two years into the church, he says, I think you have a gift. So I want to take you to school. Now I'm asking myself, school. And as I said, if you say there's an opportunity to do this, KG, if I can see it benefiting me, whether it's me, my family, or helping with my future, I'm on it. So I'm working as a cashier, but I'm part-time. So my pastor says 2014, he says 2015, I want to take it to school. And I said, okay, I'm resigning from work, I'm going to school.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

Easy as that.

SPEAKER_02 33:14

Yeah. So I can remember. So for me, I was like, if it's school, I'm taking it. I don't know where it's gonna take me, but for the fact that it's school, right? Who can say no to learning? You know, right, yeah, this is a great opportunity. And I remember in the interim uh between work and now applying for seminary. Uh there was like, I wouldn't say friend, but you know, when you're familiar with people in your area. So this one guy, we grew up together in the same area. So he says to me, So what are you going to do next year? And I said, I'm going to study theology. It's like, Yeah, what? Theology. So he says, Are you serious? Are you sure? I said, Yeah. So at this point, now I'm I'm I'm sure in my faith with Christ, everything I'm doing, I'm intentional about growing in the Lord. Yeah. You know? Um, and he said, Ah man, why don't you try and study something that you know you'll get a job for, a guaranteed job? Because you know, you know us, our our our age mates. I mean, you need to find a job, you need to have money, you need to provide. Because if you're gonna date a girl, you don't have money, you can't provide, then you're not gonna make it work. So why not? So you basically was discouraging me. Right. For sure, for sure. Yeah, but it wasn't um a friend or someone close that I could really take the advice and say, okay. It was more of you know, like buddies, people, not body or friend, but people that you know in the community and you just know each other well, yeah, yeah, but we're not friends, we're not close friends. So uh at that at that point, I already made up my mind. Um, I'm going to seminary. So I studied at Baptist Theological Uh College, Southern Africa, which is in Johannesburg, Renbeck. So I did uh four years with them and I got my honors degree with them. And um so my pastor at the time, when he's now we're enrolling, as I said, I always ask questions. I'm like, so where's the money gonna come from now? Because I know education is not free, and now I'm seeing the fees, the fee structure, you at least you can pay this much, and then you can get enrolled. Then now I can see the situation at our church. Finances are not strong. We're not, you know, it's we're not at a place where even my pastor was getting like a decent salary. Right. So now I'm asking myself, how is this gonna work out? Or maybe he has connections, I don't know. But I just applied and then he spoke to the church. The church was able to get registration money for me, which was like uh 3,600 rands. I don't know how you convert that to dollars and what it how much it would amount to, but we get that uh fee. I start going to college. Um, so it's a seminar, but they use the phrase college there, um, Baptist Theological College. So um getting to my first year, Professor Peef, first class biblical studies, he says, Um, everyone is uh introducing themselves. Hi, I'm KG, I'm this, I'm that, I'm that. Then he says, guys, if you're here to make money, this is the wrong place. Rather go be a lawyer or something that has to do with speaking and engaging with people. You can be uh you can be in a church and they can't pay you well. You can be in a church where they can pay you well, but either way, if you want to make money, this is the wrong place. Right. And I remember I'm like, oh, this is my conversation before. Right, this is my place, then yeah. Because at that point, I mean I'm I'm I'm even meeting my peers, and I'm you know, it's like this world keeps opening up of Christianity and faith. Because now, for the first time, I'm hearing this with theology. Um, I've never heard of this phrase, this term, and as I said, even with my church and local pastors, they were not trained. My pastor did do some theological studies, but at this point he's old and he's never been a strong theologian, so I never got exposed to formal theological studies. Yeah, but it was for me with him, my work was more the experience and just doing life with the people of the church. But the theological part, I only got to get exposure when I got to seminar. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

KG, I'm gonna interrupt your story a little bit. Sure. Because I gotta I got a question I want to ask you about this. What you're talking about are spiritual acts of faith all along, whether you even know that in the beginning or not, do you know what I mean? From your cousin inviting you to come over and hey, we'll just play the movie again, and you're having this, you know, you could have said no. Yeah. You could have said I'd rather go, you know, yes, hang out with my girlfriend or go do something else instead. But it seems like breadcrumbs, doesn't it? Like the Lord has just put one thing in front of you and one thing. But the courageous thing that I want to ask you about is it seems like every step of the way was a faithful act of courage. Yes, definitely to just keep going. Yeah, yeah. Is that do you feel like that when you look back on the story now?

SPEAKER_02 38:39

For sure. Of course, there's there's one uh event that I can take us back to um during my years of seminary. Yeah, this is of course, those steps as well were steps of courage. Whether I I was intentional or not, or I knew about it, uh apart from later now when now I'm a mature believer where I'm thinking sometimes critically about things that I want to do. Um is this a good uh decision or not? You know, now that I have a family, do we sense God's calling towards this uh ministry or not? Yeah, but at that point there were courageous steps, but uh it's different now. But um I remember meeting my wife. We met 2015, and uh I'll just cut the long story short. People always say there's two sides to the stories when couples meet. There's the husband's side and there's the wife's side. Yeah, but we met 2015, and how we met is she was part of another ministry, and they want they had a choir, and she was singing and part of the lead singers in the choir. So they wanted to merge with other youth churches around the area, and so our church also, and I was a youth pastor now at that point, um, 2015, and it's my first year seminary. So um, for her, she said it was love at first sight because when she saw me, it's like ooh, who's this guy? Well, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 40:19

She's she can you can come and interview at some point and she can verify this.

SPEAKER_00 40:25

See if she can confirm that. Yeah, okay. But anyway, this is KG's side of it. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 40:31

But anyway, um 2015. Um, we meet around Feb. We're just getting to know each other through the meetings, you know. I'm like, this lady's nice, I like what she's doing, and we're talking, but I can sense the something that I'm feeling for her. Of course, I can see there's a response from her. Then after the youth conference that we did together in June, then we started we started a friendship. Now we're talking more, and she was working at that point, and she's working at a hospital, she's working night shift. So sometimes I'm we're on the call, um taking her through a night shift while I'm supposed to study.

SPEAKER_00 41:13

The heck of seminary now. Yes, I like this lady, yeah. I get that.

SPEAKER_02 41:17

Yes, yeah. So sometimes I'm sleeping at 3 a.m. because she's on the call and she's waiting, then she says, okay, we'll talk. Then I'm like, okay, I have class in the morning, so I have to sleep now and wake up. But I managed that as you can see. I managed to pass some year now, right? Second year 2016. Towards September 2015, then we had an official relationship. 2015 2016, they the next year I engaged there. 2017, now marriage. This is where I had to make a brave um decision. So I don't know if you've heard of l'obola in South Africa.

SPEAKER_00 41:56

Yes, I have. Yes, Lobola.

SPEAKER_02 41:58

Yes, Lobola.

SPEAKER_00 42:00

That is okay. This is what I I'm gonna tell you what I know about lobola, and then you tell me if it's the truth. So the the man and the woman don't uh meet the parents yet, yeah, but the man has to pay l'obola for the woman that he's about to marry. About to marry. Yes. It's like a dowry, it's like a payment.

SPEAKER_02 42:24

Yes, yeah, sure. You just explained it nicely in short. Um, but of course, how it's done may differ from every culture. A lot of lobola or not as much labola or well, the the initial process is the same. You're paying for the woman you're gonna marry. But some people might have different processes of doing it. Some may want cows and money, some may want gifts and money, some may want money, uh, but the process is the same. You're gonna pay. Yeah, yeah. Yes, and for many, I would say go even Africans, not just South Africa, but Africans, it's like the man is showing that he can take care of his wife and his family. That's one of the things. Yeah, and of course, the opportunity for families to come together, and as I said, with every cultural group, it will be different. There will be different reasons why, but the idea is yes, you are the families are meeting, the man is showing his strength, you know, his capabilities, you know. And um, there's other reasons. Um, but uh here's me. Um there's lobola that's needed for my wife. I'm in my third year, and I'm not working a job where I can say I have a decent salary to save and uh pay the l'Obola. So um at this point, I I'm I have a good relationship with my mother in law to be at that point. Okay, okay. So my wife gave in a wedded to my to my mother-in-law at that point and said, Look, please don't charge this guy crazy amounts because you don't want money to be a hindrance to him marrying me and all that. She had the they had the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 44:14

And what happens you don't so that's interesting that they that there can be that kind of negotiations behind the scenes. Yes. Mom, I love this guy. Yes. Take it easy on him. Yes. Make this easy for her. And she says I'll do what I'm gonna do. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 44:29

And usually as I said depends on every uh on on a cultural group but with times changing as well now we're seeing even women getting involved in negotiations. Back then it was only men. So the mother wouldn't even know what's happening in the negotiations. So even in this instance my mother-in-law was not involved in the negotiations. Usually the uncles are the ones who come and they negotiate from the men's side and the woman's side and sometimes there'll be like it's it's interesting um I do not disregard everything about Lobola but some things I do in terms of rituals and all that. Yeah but some things are beautiful I mean sure say we I I want to marry your daughter as we come to your house maybe we did something wrong by the gate we entered without you giving us permission then what will happen is you kick us out of your um yard and then we'll have to pay something and sometimes they call it Vulamlom open opening the mouth so you'll pay maybe like maybe a thousand uh rands and that will make him happy and then he can open the gate he welcomes us maybe you can come with a bottle of whiskey and you put it on the table so you sort of uh you know by the way of acknowledging and making it right and yeah so yeah it's beautiful but anyway my my mother-in-law gave my the uncles my my wife's uncles the mandate said instead of negotiating amounts because sometimes families will start say hundred thousand rands and um and then we can negotiate no our daughter is studied this is a doctor we invested in her we did this and that so that's how we value her and of course the money can never give real value um to to to the to the lady right but it's sort of like a starting point um she went to Harvard she she's a medical doctor so your your son is getting a proper wife you know yeah in a sense yeah quotation marks yeah right right right yeah but usually thinking about it now you don't hear them having conversations about characteristics in terms of of course some cultures women um are virgins and um that also can play a role into other amount and all that if she has two kids uh out of wedlock that also can have an influence on the amount so at this point my mother-in-law tells uh my my my wife's uncles we won't negotiate just tell them we want this amount that's it and um they wanted 2000 rands so now my wife tells me we we're gonna want 2000 rands so um now my my uncles I give them the date and I said at this point I'll be ready guess what I don't have money I'm a student I'm a third year right and in the process I remember having a conversation with my pastor there was a communication breakdown at that point and we me and my wife approached him and said we want to get married and um we then he was not happy about it because there were some rumors in the church that we were we're gonna get married and we're gonna leave the church and take some congreg uh members and con the congregants so gossip basically yeah so what happened is we had spoken to a few friends and said look we're thinking of taking the step would you be able to help us with getting chairs or cake you know and we said but at this point this is not uh happening now we're just praying about it thinking about it but we'll we'll have a sign and when the sign is there we'll tell you so we didn't just want to go to my pastor at that point early on because if you ask us questions if you can't answer them he'll think these ones are not serious right that this is the mentality we had we're like right we want to go to him when we show and we can say no we have one two three in place because I mean if you ask me where are you gonna live with your new wife if I can't answer this like uh this guy he might not be that serious yes yeah so that was the attitude but that I don't know how it got to my pastor but didn't get well to him so when we had the conversation there was a breakdown and unfortunately we never finished the conversation because a church member had lost his wife and so he came and my pastor had to leave and go attend that from there our communication was a bit sour because it seemed like I I was not opening up to him about major things that happened in my life it was like oh now that you are grown I've done this for you right you take you now not involving me but I tried to make mend the relationship with him but why I say this because um you know he was one of the people that was gonna help me to go through the process because there's low walla there's other things but as a Christian and as a black man who was born in uh South Africa he will know how to navigate and bring the faith aspect without us getting involved in the other things that are practiced by the family. So at this point now I don't have him on my corner so already challenge number one so me and my wife now we're like are we doing this or not and took some time and ultimately I said you know what since I want to take big guy decisions I want to be a man this is one of them I need to decide and I said no we're taking this step let's do it um uh of course uh we we took the decision we put out a date now my father had gifted me with a car uh and he's like here's your first car but uh it was not the best car I lend a lot with that car okay yeah when uh oil and water mix what happens to a car you get stuck and all that you know you fix this this breaks you fix that but I lend a lot but it took us through some uh tough days my wife when she had to go to work winter time and I could drive her to work and she's at least warm in the car so now my dad speaking to him then he says okay since you want to get married two options you can keep the car or sell it because it's like now you're gonna have two wives because the car is taking out money to fix it so maybe consider selling the car and I said oh he gives me a go of course I want to get married I'll sell the car I sold the car okay so I only had half of the money okay getting closer though yes so I I I gave my uncles the money that's what you do bought some cakes and all that so that they can take it to the family then they get there they talk this is the this is the l'obola negotiation l'obola so the 20,000 Rand is what you owed you got 10,000 Rand for the car got 12 from 12 from the car but of course uh they came back with 2,000 rands and only paid 10. Okay yes so but at that point they didn't negotiate because now they told them no we want this amount that's it yeah which was good for me and they paid the 1000 they said okay this is how they give me feedback this is how it went and everything so basically me and my wife we haven't done everything uh and so we still need to and still need to pay the 10 000 and um do some things you know like that culturally they will practice yeah it's like maybe I need to buy some aunt blanket and we need to walk in the street people see and yeah this as I said it's different from for different cultural groups so now me and my wife we like no maybe we should speak to our parents and tie the knot and then I can always finish the summon later because why should we wait because uh I've showed my intentions now trouble came so I call my dad speak to him says no you can't do that culturally we don't practice that so now it's culturally you're not getting married until you've paid all the Ebola there's still another 10 that's owed so yeah and the the better pay that the the the the the the the me and the brain in me thinking I'm like I'm in third year I'm going to my fourth year not guaranteed I'll get a church when I'm done or work so this might take ten years or it might take long because even to get the other amount I had to sell a car so so it means I might not have a wife for some time and I'm like wait but ultimately whether the money's there or not we just need to stand before the Lord and witnesses and commit to this yeah and I'm like then I had to now think about priorities. We're like okay we tried to talk to parents family members they're not Christian by the way so they don't see it the way we see it and then me and my wife like but ultimately we're trying to honor God so that has to take priority um yes I want to finish what I started but if this is a hindrance then it's not gonna work out so um first attempt didn't work with my dad second attempt um before I spoke to him spoke to my mother and my wife spoke to her mom and at this point my wife her dad passed away uh a few years ago and her stepdad also passed away so the authority in her life was a mother and so there was the uncles are there but they are not fully involved so even with me at that point I have a relationship with my dad but it's not that strong so someone I've always looked up to is my mom. She's the authority because she raised me so I'm like if I could disappoint everyone else my mom would be the last person I'd want to disappoint. So if my mom gives me a blessing I'm doing this so we spoke to our moms we took them out sat down with them said look um we are Christians uh we could have done it differently we could have just stayed together no one would have had a problem and that's the funny part about society um you can live together have babies and even break up nothing wrong once you say you want to get married lobola families fight and break for lobola but when you stay with your with their daughter for free and nothing and you even leave them and not support their kids there's there are no efforts to fight for the right thing that's how funny it is it is but that sin does that you know um it always twists things yeah yeah upside so so um now I'm trying to make it short because there's many details we've gone past that but this is a fantastic this is such a beautiful story and and we're talking about courage and we haven't we haven't really breached that topic yet but you're describing all of it yes yeah all along the way which is so beautiful so please yes finish with your work so our mothers gave us their blessing so me and my wife said okay are we doing this yes we're doing this whether my dad comes doesn't come whether others agree with us or not um uh Dr. Terrell who was our pastoral um at the time my pastoral um lecturer took us through uh uh um marriage counseling and Professor Peef uh married us so when on the day when we did uh the ceremony we said okay let's do it simple invite a few friends two three friends for my side my side then we told family members those who are interested we said you could come of course my dad didn't pitch up already it's like I'm violating his authority and so but it was not easy but I said you know what we are honoring God more than anything and we don't want to rush and do anything outside of God and what he has set as a standard so and at the same time my wife is getting a promotion at work and it's in joiners back. So we're like it would be absurd for her to get a place and then she pays rent when we can get married and we stay together then she saves money because already we had decided we want to take this journey so we're like yeah this will make sense then let's do it we did it we tied the knot unfortunately my dad was not there um it was my mom was there her mom was there um a few friends but not many people that we wanted to even my pastor at that point is not there wasn't there yeah so it was a bittersweet moment yeah um I'm marrying uh the woman of my life but at the same time some people are the way we envisioned marriage you know like where you celebrate with your loved ones it's not ideal or exactly as you would have hoped but we knew we're doing the right thing in the eyes of the Lord um and it's not because we are pressured or trying to hide something because already the process had begun in fact we're saying later in life because now we're going nine years into our marriage me and my wife as we speak so we we say you know I realize if I had money then the 2015 I would have married you that yeah what you're prioritizing for us is is God's mandate for marriage and the love that he authored in your heart and your wife's heart for one another versus cultural norms.

SPEAKER_00 59:17

Yes which have a lot of good associated with them too just as the way you put it already but you're still serving for an audience of one yes the Lord is the one that you want to so how is that how has that played out now with all of the family members?

SPEAKER_02 59:35

Early on of course it was a bit awkward but I think for us we're happy and because of our faith because we pleased God that was everything for us yeah basically if I could use the term we didn't care yeah what others said basically um like it feels good to be married and we honored God felt good for us um of course uh you post pictures people put pictures my pastor called me is like I want you at my office next day well we have a meeting we talk I say yeah yeah things happened I was disappointed because I tried to and I think also people at the church you know they get in between the relationship some would even say I think you should step down from the youth it's not even the pastors telling me it's like people are even kicking me out of the church but the good thing is those relationships later were mended I mean I even got to preach at the church go back and uh serve because I said to them the church has helped me a lot I'm willing to serve to give back you know and say thank you for the finances whenever you came through at college yeah so yeah um but um early on I think ultimately people they realize when someone has made up their mind and they realize they can't get through to them they just learn to live with it. But to others it was not an honorable marriage. So to some we are not even married they don't consider ourselves married but if you go to the authorities home affairs we are there in the books. If you go to uh to God we are there yeah yeah we speak before him um but of course it was not done out of a sense of pride but it was more of we wanted to do the right thing uh prioritizing uh what God has set as standards for marriage versus cultural norms now now tell me you're married now before you're done with seminary is that true yes so you finish seminary and then you get a placement with the church yes so tell us briefly how that happened so um while um 2017 in my third year um because now there's a rift between me and my pastor I need to find another church because I'm no longer comfortable happy to serve and um you know even when you listen to summons you feel like hey this is an attack. So I'm like this is not a good place to be in. Yeah. So we moved and now that we're in Job we look for a church and so we served at Drewville Baptist Church which was closer to where we're staying and we after that church then while I was still at Drouville I got a call from Travel Baptist Church which was the first church that I pastored and the church is in the heart of Jovek and I remember one pastor friend of mine gave him saying that you guys are at the gates of hell that's where you're ministered at rough rough locations. Yes and um the church gave me a contract for a year because financially they were not well off they could not call a full-time pastor so I was working at the college at the time um doing um so after I finished my fourth year uh I during COVID um I got an opportunity to work with a man called David so we would renovate the college paint the flat flats uh accommodation anything that needed to be done we would do it remember I told you I'm a guy if there's an opportunity I go for it yeah and I'm only realizing now I I always did that but of course I would think about because I'd not do everything yeah I would think about the opportunity so I worked with David at the college and we would do everything drywalls um building a wall mixing cement and you know doing all and construction basically but on a minimal uh load though so as I'm working that's when I get a call from Trevor the one that passed that the one someone who's working at least they can give them a salary and you work X amount days or hours and um unfortunately the contract was um for a year and so um with the contract uh being for a year I only served there for a year so they wanted to continue with me but they couldn't um pay me anymore that's the unfortunate part so they wanted to continue with me but I said um there was some money left because someone left money for the church in their will but I said I think this is not sustainable for the church. I would rather not stay and then we just run out the money. Maybe you can do something with it. Maybe call a pastor every Sunday and then until things change. And I think at the same time you could see they didn't want to change they were still stuck in the glory days because Job and the surroundings changed so much. I think the church is one of the early churches that were built as a Baptist church in South Africa. I think the third alien this is like the 70s 60s um yeah probably even way back I might be wrong way back but this was one of the early churches that was built so um now uh we are out of the church then um in the period of leaving the church of course me and my wife we've always said this motto whether we are working uh getting paid or not we are Christians we need to find at home as a church so we're considering going back to our home church where it all started because now my pastor has passed on um and so we're like maybe should go there and serve of course we see there could be an opportunity to help there I'm trained now and um so put the theory to practice now then in that interim I get a call from Christ Baptist Cheshmo Company now in Limpopo. And they're looking for a pastor. And while they were looking, they called the college. So because I stuck around the college, I was working around the college. So it was easy to remember my name. So the principal gave them my CV and said, I think this might be this might be the right guy for the church. And that's how I got to Limpopo. And so we basically I was in Pretoria from when I was young until I went to seminary, stayed in Jobek for eight years, and then we moved. Now we are in Limpopo. And how long have you been pastoring the church that you're at? So now it's in my third year. Wow. Yes, it's in my third year. So yeah, um, there's a lot of see KG.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:48

This is what's another fantastic thing about you. I ask some people about the elevator pitch kind of story, yeah, about their background to put them in context, and you get a little tiny snack. You've given us a giant meal, and I'd love it. I feel like like all the listeners feel like they know you now after what we've heard, and that's fantastic. I mean, there's a lot of courage along the way. Um let me we don't have a ton of time left, and if and if we need to extend this to a second interview, we'll go ahead and do that. But I do want to ask you about the topic of courage, which you have exemplified in your Christian walk. Period. I mean, the family that you were raised in, and then venturing out and finding a new faith, and then going to seminary, which seemed like that wasn't in the cards for you, and then stepping out to marry your wife. Yes. Um, because you felt like God was calling you to do that and it was the right thing to do, even though it went against some cultural norms, and I mean all of that stuff, and then pastoring a church, and then moving from a place that you know to a place that you didn't know as well. There's courage all along the way. So, how do you define that? How do you define courage? What would you say a KG's definition of courage is? Um, two words.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:11

Confidence in God. Confidence in God. Because that was my drive. That was my drive. Um, if I didn't have a relationship with God, I'd be living a different life. All the decisions I've made would be to please um the standards of the world, the norms, the cultural norms. So because I knew what God um has set out and what he demands and what he wants. So I pursued that. And in pursuit of that, then the decisions were made. And um, so yeah, for me. So you draw a direct correlation between faith and courage.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:55

Yes, yeah, it's exactly yeah, walking out God's mandate for your life.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:00

So my confidence is in God because as I mentioned, I knew I was in the will of God. Um God is directing my path, and of course, you also look at those small victories, and you're like, if God did that for me, I mean, going getting into seminary four years of seminary, I didn't have a salary. I got bursaries. Sometimes um people supported me. There was the one man who was faithful. He gave me 700 rands every month. Basically, that's if I would say I had any fixed amount, that was a fixed amount. And sometimes we got vouchers, you know, to buy food at um the grocery and get groceries, but ultimately I always say to people, um, if someone told me I had to study four years at seminary, and they told me I needed this amount for four years for um accommodation, this amount for four years for textbooks that are recommended, this amount for groceries, and just to live. If they were to give me that amount, I would have been discouraged because I didn't have the money. But through different ways I worked, I did this, I did that, people came through, donors, um, and I'm I have an honors degree, and now I'm pursuing my master's, and I love theology. And as we we had this conversation now, I'm writing my book, um, and already I'm thinking of a second topic for my book. Wow. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:46

Um back on this topic of courage, you've given us a definition of courage that we that we had last time, so that was fantastic. Um my question for you is who do you have in your life that represents real courage? Okay, hmm. And it can be a historical figure, or it can be somebody that's in your family, or wait, let me let me let me tend to think.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:19

Because there's plenty of people, but I think you're well it's not just one person, but if I were to go through like a list, um looking at friends, there's an elder at the church, and I have some people that I watch online and I see their boldness as well. Um, maybe online I see John Lennox, uh, the mathematician from uh the UK. Um and uh I mean he's in the space where God is not wanted, but yet he's so intelligent, he's a genius, but the way he speaks about God, that courage, you know. Um HP Charles. Um sometimes, you know, uh you you for lack of a better word, I'll say you mean your words, but uh he says it the way it is, but not to offend, but to say no, this is the reality. Excuse me, this is the truth. But so I'm just trying to see recently who has been that influence. And I think a friend of mine is a pastor as well in Jovek, uh Kaifos. Uh, we went to college together, started uh Met in 2015, and we've kept the friendship ever since. Uh although uh he said this is what he said too uh just uh the past few days when we're celebrating my birthday. So he gave a speech, and when he started like we didn't start out as like close friends, and he saw me from afar. We were in the same class for all the subjects, and he says, I'm always sharp in how I look, and he looked at him, he's like, Ah, this was the neverlasting ministry. Yeah, I'm always like sharp, clean, you know, and um that's right, yeah, and then it's like this guy's going, eh? He's going, but of course, over time uh we had a good bond, chemistry, and we've kept the friendship up to this date. And there are things that uh decisions rather that he has taken in ministry uh that have really encouraged me because sometimes it's difficult inheriting a church because they've had this pastor, this pastor, and there's been consistent elders or deacons, and while pastors come in and go, there are some who feel entitled and they don't want to move from the chair, and it's like we do things this way, but he's made decisions that have been bold, smart, and wise at the same time. And um I remember, I mean, one of the conversations we had was around the constitution of the church, and he said this to me um the constitution is good for the church when they have a bad pastor, but when they have a good pastor, it can be a hindrance. That's interesting. Yeah, because it's like um a good pastor, even though um there's the constitution, but he wants to do well and wants to make sure we grow and we do what we need to do. So now the constitution might give you two, three steps of how to do that, but he wants to go to the third step immediately because we need to get the ball rolling. And it's like for a good pastor, it's it's it can be a hindrance. And the constitution has its place, but it says for the church when they have a bad pastor, it's good. Yeah, it can protect the church, and so one of the things we keep talking about is how sometimes as the church, the constitution can have authority over the word of God, um, and that is a problem, and um I I'm just encouraged in the way he's taken bold decisions, and he takes and draws inspiration from me. But when I look at him, I'm like, you don't know how much you encourage me because he's making decisions, and sometimes you know, you you you want to make decisions not because you are the tyrant, but because you see, okay, this is not working, let's try this. And he has done that. I'm more of a careful thinker. I think and I think and I think and I think, and it's time to act. I think it's like I overthink, and I'm like, what if it doesn't work? What if he gets offended, or what if this and that? And he always takes action, and of course, with careful thought, and um and so yeah, so he's been a real encouragement to me, um, in that sense, because the church that he's uh leading, um excuse me. They were with a pastor for some time and they wanted uh a bivocational pastor. And um he he then uh took up the call and he started working with the church and it's growing. It's growing and he's here's a story. So he says to me this other day I received three emails from church members in quotation marks. So these uh particular individuals, they they they since he's been there, they had not come to church. So basically it's a silent protest. Yeah, we don't like you. Yeah, because actually we are the authority here and you are changing things. Um your typical uh older folks in the church who want things to stay as they are, you know. Yeah, um, and so he says to me, when I saw the emails, I said, I'm not going to respond to this because they are not church members. Ever since I've been here as a pastor, they've never been in the church, I've never met them. So I don't need to respond to that because they are not church members. I was like, yo, that's a bold move. Then I thought about it, I'm like, but he's actually right because they're not active, and this brings me back to a book um uh we were reading recently for Bible study by Thomas Rayner. Um, I am a church member. And in the first chapter after the introduction, he speaks about a functional church member, and we see that from the Bible. A church member is someone who's functional in the body. I'm gonna look it up. Yes, I am a church member. Um, it's a great book. So we are in chapter four now. The first chapter is about functional church member, um, and then the second part, the second chapter, rather, it's about unity. Um, that as a church member, you are a unifier, you don't destroy the body of Christ. Yeah, and then the third chapter is about I will pray for my yes, that one, Thomas Rainer, yes, it's a very good book, uh, not too exhaustive but profound. So this is Kaifass now. He says, No, these guys have not been involved, and I like how Thomas Rainer puts it, you know. Of course, there's the local church member, and then there's the global um church, you know, as part of the body of Christ. And and I was like, Yeah, I like the way you practically take steps to deal with issues, but also it shows that you've thought about it. And that's courage for me as well. Yeah, because I mean, three emails from church members already, it's intimidating. It's like, oh, I think one of the things as a pastor is you don't want to lose anyone, you want to win everyone. Yeah, and so for me, for him to do that, I'm like, that's bold.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:59

Standing up for what you believe in and looking after your flock, yeah, real diligence. I get it. Yes, yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah, and I was like, yo, wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:10

So I think fresh off my mind, he comes to mind, you know. I do have people that have uh poured into my life and I've drawn inspiration and courage from their acts, and yeah, um, and I'm reminded again of Professor Piff when he told uh a story of a situation that happened, and one time he was driving back home. And he's driving back home, he sees a Jehovah's Witness, he put up a big board and he said, Jesus is not God, and he was just going home. Then he took a turn. Like, well, I would have just minded my own business and say maybe this guy's crazy. Right, right. But he took a turn, and he says he went to the guy and started having a conversation with him. Because for him, you're offending my God, you know, um, and that's not the truth. And I was like, honestly, I would have been nonchalant about it. Yeah, I would just like mind my own business, and sometimes it's those small acts, you know, that we do that can make the difference. Because sometimes when you think about evangelism, it's like today I'm doing evangelism. But for him, it's it's part of his what he does, it's part of his lifestyle.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:27

Every day. I've got a mentor that tells me that my only responsibility is to the truth, to God's truth. And and that's right. You can you can say, well, I'm being I'm honoring God's truth by not engaging or being apathetic, but that's not really true. The truth is, I mean, follow the Holy Spirit, but when the Holy Spirit tells you to turn around and go talk to somebody, you need to do this for sure. Yeah, definitely. No, I get it. Um, okay, KG, we want to come down to the big question now and ask you when you think about your your whole life, and I ask you the question, what's the most courageous thing you've ever done? What comes to mind? The most sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:12

Yeah, that's a big question. The most sure. I think you know, when you ask the most, in my mind comes a picture of like, you know, dangerous in the jungle.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:27

Right. Yeah. But I've had people answer that question and say, um, you know, it was staying home with my kids. As a as a as a mother coming out of, you know, the executive world, and I needed to stay home with my kids to homeschool them because God told me that was the right thing to do. I've had other people tell me uh, you know, Navy SEALs tell me that the most courageous thing they ever did was accept Christ in their life. Not go one-on-one with somebody with a you know machine gun or anything like that, but it was sleep them. Yeah. So when you think about that question, what's the thing that the Lord brings to mind for you?

SPEAKER_02 1:23:05

Thank you for mentioning that. That really helped me a lot because it brought me to a point where I think this is the most. Um, and this one is more personal. So I'm getting personal with you now and opening up another world of my life. So I think it's marrying my wife, and when I met her, my daughter, our daughter, she's my stepdaughter. So my wife already had Rato, and Rato was three. And I remember when we met and started keeping friends before we got married, and she asked, Um, do you would you marry a woman who has a child out of wedlock? And I said, Yeah, sure. I mean, I'm not just marrying someone because I have a perfect picture of who they are. I want to marry someone I can relate with, and whatever comes uh with that, we work it out together. But I think I was not concerned or anxious, even though I'd never been a biological father. Um uh but when I look back now in terms of how things turned out, because uh Rato's biological father is in the picture, and that's kick that can be a struggle. And as we speak right now, I'm in good contact with the biological father. In fact, this morning he asked if Rato is already at school, and um, I said, Yeah, I've already dropped her, but I'll just call you when she's out so that he can speak to her. And um it didn't start off like that, you know, male ego. Um the first time we had a one-on-one encounter, it was ugly, and I said some things. He said some things, but it was over a phone, uh phone call, I mean, and Rato was still four, and I remember my wife was at the salon to do her hair, and now she had to meet with Rato's dad's success, so that success could take Rato and they drive uh for the weekend, like he's having her for the weekend. That's that's her father's name's success. Success, yeah. That's his father's uh the father's name, I mean, and um so now my wife is she's at disappointment, so it means I have to now go and meet with uh Rato's dad. And it was the first time now we're gonna sit after that ordeal. And we said, Hey, how's it? I'm good, I'm good. We sit at a McDonald's, Rato's playing there. Then she comes, she takes her father's hat and puts it on my head. Oh his hat and put it on your head, on my head.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:20

Okay, so already um you can tell, okay, yeah, this child, yeah, she doesn't care what's happening between the two of you, she's just happy, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:32

Um, and we s we squashed a squabble, and from there there was respect, uh clear communication, and up to this point, um, we still communicate. Um we if sometimes he needs a favor, like please meet me halfway. Um, because now he lives in Pretoria. We are in Limpopo. So if he wants to spend time with Rato, please let's meet halfway. And uh we you give me Rato, and then we always do that. Um sometimes can you please fetch her by this place? I'm not around my maybe her aunt or granny. And we've actually even created a bond, but we don't always talk, but I can call her grandmother from her biological father's side, and we can talk, and she's also a Christian. Um and so she even calls me pastor. Wow, and now Rato always, and depends on who she's talking to, but from that age, she's always said, I have two dads. Um, and she's never been confused about it. We never taught her that. We never said, I've never said when we're with people, I'm the dead. She says, I have two dads. And I think I just, you know, also seeing God's grace in my daughter's life because. She's always seen me as a dad. She's always seen a dad. Biological dad as a dad. And so she's not confused about it. She's not feeling separated or pulled. And she doesn't feel like she has to impress this one and impress me. Or she's just being a girl and a daughter to her dad. Which with whoever she's with. Yeah. And she's so comfortable to even speak about some of the frustrations she has about her biological dad. Um, and then I've made it my number one priority to make sure that Rato has a relationship with his biological dad because he's staying, she's staying with me full-time. So I'm the influence in her life. Um yeah, and of course, um she she will always see me as this superhero, like the dad, because I'm with her. Yeah, I've been through ups and downs with her. Um, she had a bully at school, I stood up for her. She mentioned it as we were celebrated, she gave a speech and she said, I still remember when you stood up for me uh when I had a bully at school, and those things are uh precious, and so her biological dad doesn't have that privilege because he he's not always with her, not around as much, yeah, not around as much, and so I think that has been the most courageous thing because sometimes there's ego and there's sometimes you may have notions of and because me and my wife we're still hoping and praying for more babies, but we don't have our own baby, but we have Ratu. And for me, I think my wife is sometimes more anxious, like I would like to have more kids. On my side, I'm like, well, Rato is here, and if more kids come, the Lord uh blesses us. I'm okay, but if it's not happening, I'm living my life with what I have and appreciative of what I have, and yeah, I think maybe sometimes it's because I'm a thinker, I just accept things quickly. I think okay, this I cannot do anything about it. I accept I don't get too emotional, I don't let it uh get to me, and so yeah, I think that has been the most courageous thing to be a stepdad and never feel like I'm a stepdad. But just get into that role and it became seamless. Um, I'm rato's dad. In fact, the bond we have someone who doesn't know would just think. In fact, many people have even said she looks more like you than her mom. God, how do you do this?

SPEAKER_00 1:30:40

I don't know. I think KG, that's a wonderful answer to that question. What's the most courageous thing you've ever done? I mean, given all of your background and everything that you've been through, coming to faith and the way that you were raised and starting a new church and all that sort of thing, I think that is so sweet that you look back on that meeting her Rato's biological father as the most courageous thing you've ever done. Because um, and I should be short about this because I don't want to talk outside of my area of expertise, but you know, I've read a lot of books about the trouble that can come from broken homes. You know, when kids come out of divorce, you know, there's a difficult situation there, and also children that are raised without a father. And here, your beautiful act of courage, being able to meet him and become friends with him, in fact, yeah, you've put in place not only you as a father for Rato, but affirming her biological dad is a father as well. So she's got the best of both, and she doesn't have that tension of being from I mean, it's a derogatory term, I don't mean it to be, but that broken home, you know, that comes out of that difficulty. And that all came from your courage, so that's fantastic. Yeah. My hat's off to you. Thank you. That's wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:59

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:00

Now, now you've already talked about what happened after you did that and the closeness that you have with this man now, and the way that you guys can parent Rato, you know, in harmony like that. What other uh encouragements or courageous endeavors have come from that act of courage? You know, because I believe that once you take a step of courage, it just lifts you up and and helps you for the next one. Have you had do you feel like you've had other things happen since then because of what you've done?

SPEAKER_02 1:32:34

Yeah, um, I think just um looking at my daughter, um, she has helped me to have insight into what it looks like to be a father and reflect on God as a father. Um and that has been a real blessing because I see sometimes how I'm gracious to her, sometimes I'm merciful, sometimes I'm angry, but um not angry because I want to kill her, but I'm like, how do you do this? But you calm down all those dynamics, and I think, oh, sometimes this is what I do to my heavenly father, and you appreciate God's grace even more, and you appreciate his discipline when Hebrew speaks about discipline and he does it, he disciplines because he loves you. And I see all those as I am a father to my daughter. And I think also it is I've never really struggled with pride, but whatever percentage of it that was there, it's out of the window because I think the pressure is this as well. And uh I don't know with um any other cultural groups but where we grew up and with uh black people, children are like a heritage and and and and and an inheritance as well whereby you have to leave a print and that print is through your children. We know that you did some part of what you did is we see your kids. Yeah. Excuse me. And besides Rato, I don't have any of my biological kids. And that pressure of maybe there's something wrong with you guys, or maybe it's me. Because now we've been married now for eight years, going into nine years now, and so and that when are you having if Rat was not in the picture, the question then would have been when are you having kids? Yeah, where are the kids? And I've heard those questions, you know, where are the kids? Um and that pressure, but I've never felt the weight of it, and like I said, I'm a thinker. Sometimes I just observe people and I'm like, that is their expectation, but that's not mine. I need to be responsible for what I have in my life, and not that I'm avoiding the realities of those questions, but um I yeah, I and I think coming going back a bit to my teenage hood, uh growing up with my mom, and at some point she was retrenched, and I knew I couldn't ask my mom for maybe money for a sneaker because she can't afford it, I can see. So I've never pressured her, so I would always rather let me go wash a car, let me go do something like to get some money and I'll buy for myself. So instead of sulking, I always try to find a way to do it better and to not because I could throw tantrums at my mom and say, Yeah, but other kids that are getting this, um, this the kids, there's a sneaker that's trending, others are wearing it at school. I want that as well, but I've always okay, how can I make it better? And um, so I think that grew with me in in in a way that of course there are things that get to me where sometimes I'm like I'm anxious and um bring it to the Lord, but this particular one of children, or maybe I I I tell myself that maybe I haven't really sat down and really thought about it. But for the fact that Rato is there, I don't feel a void personally, right? Yeah, because yeah, you're complete with her.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:43

Yes, it's a beautiful, yeah, it's a beautiful way to put it. Yes. Um KG, you are a new friend, and I'm so grateful to God that He put us together just on this little trip. Yeah, it's just been fantastic. And uh I'm grateful that you've came and sat down with me a couple times now to talk about this topic of courage, and I'm looking forward to many more. So, KG, man of great courage and uh certainly a man of God. Thank you so much for sharing with us. Thank you, thank you, Jeff. Really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:18

Um and I mean, like I said, uh with the pressure of you know, from families, like we want kids. My dad wants more grandkids, and maybe as we are wrapping it up, um, even my sister who comes after me. Um she had a first child, now she has she just had a newborn, and it's like now she's she's she has more numbers on me. The race is on. So of course I see those and I think and I'm like, I wonder what they are thinking. I was like, Yeah, yeah, and but then the truth is I know, and even the Bible says, if you worry, it can't even add a day to your life, right? Can't so yeah, why beat yourself up about it? And me and my wife, of course, for now we um I think this you can pray with us about it. We we well we we we we're pastoral family, we missionaries, so you know sometimes finances can be um um a lack on some areas. So we've been my wife has been suggesting maybe we go see a gynee, um, we get we check this and that. We've also considered like it would be nice maybe to do an in in vitro or something like that. But of course when you look at the finances, like and I think as a man, um I'm trying or as a husband, I try to steward what we have and not try to stretch ourselves so much that we have financial burdens. Um and for my wife, I've seen like she it gets to her. Whereas me, it's more of okay, I've only thought about it um logically but not emotionally, and of course I accommodate her, and we always talk, yeah, and maybe we should check this, we should check that and see. In fact, uh I think I I always say to people, I I'm good at answering questions when I speak because I remember. Yeah, so we've had a miscarriage, me and my wife, 2022. Um well, there were signs like your periods haven't come. Okay, that's that's sign number one, okay? We should get checked. And it's like, okay, but let's wait. And I can remember she gave me this news after the day after, oh, there was the night when I did a special surprise for her birthday. Excuse me, in 2022. And um, and she said, No, um, I took a pregnancy test, and this is the results. And um, I said, Okay, that's another sign, okay. Yeah, and of course there's that jaw, and um, I think she was seven weeks. Yeah, I think seven weeks or five weeks in, and then we had a miscarriage, and that really um uh took a toll on us, especially my wife. And like I said, and I don't know, maybe um sometimes I've growing up I've learned to block out things that I know won't help me to progress to a point where I can't get emotional about this. Um, and I do get emotional. Um, there are things that get to me and I allow them. Um I'm one of those who say, Yeah, men cry. Yes, yeah, men cry too. So yeah, but I think like I said, most of the things I think about them logically, and I try to make sense and I see okay, this is not helping. So I don't I'll go through the process, but at some point life has to go on. We have to rise up, you know, we have to do something, and even when we're carrying the pain, but carry the pain while don't get stuck in the pain. Yeah, don't sit, don't um make, don't allow it to make a home in your in your heart, you know. So um we've had that miscarriage, and ever since, you know, if now and then when she mentions I feel like this, I feel like that, you're like, oh, maybe this or that. But yeah, so we we desire to have more kids, um, but I think sometimes there is that pressure on me, especially from family and in the black culture, uh, and for sure in any other family um kids I blessing, and uh it's like okay. Oh, and here's the thing because I didn't finish my obligation with the traditional way of doing marriage, apparently the notion is maybe the ancestors are angry. Oh, yes, because you didn't finish this, there was no blood sacrifice, so that this is the one prayer that I've said together. And I said, God, if you're gonna give us kids, please give us kids before we even finish. Because I I I committed to that, just finishing the lobola, yeah. And I I will I said I will finish my part because I committed to that. I said, Yes, no, it's fine. This amount is fine, but the other rituals, you know, yeah, yeah. Um, if they want to do them, they can do them, but I'm not gonna speak to dead people um with respect. Um, I'm not gonna uh kneel, I'm not gonna spill blood, and I don't believe in so apparently when those processes are that you are bringing both families together. That's how basically it works. You're bringing both the living family and the ancestral families together. They need to agree, so there was a whole world down there. That's how they view it basically, yeah, and think about it. And I always say to people, how can someone who's dead tell you who is living how to live? Yeah. I mean, even when they were they died, they couldn't put themselves in a casket. They needed you to put them in a casket. Right. And then now all of a sudden they have the power to influence you. Yeah. So yeah, but that's another thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:15

That's very interesting, and you're serving an audience of one, and so you know as a Christian, yeah, that we're not supposed to pray to the dead or do any of that kind of stuff, you know. But we pray to to Jesus. And I'm glad that you're mentioning, I'm glad that you're mentioning the longing on your heart with you and your wife. What's your wife's name? Laurentia. Laurentia, yeah. That's a beautiful name. So you've already been given rotto. Yes. But you and your wife Laurentia are longing for more children. Yeah. And you've gone through a miscarriage already, and there's a lot of good, strong Christian people that are listening to this podcast. So everybody out there listening to me, we're gonna join in prayer with KG and his wife for more children, and we'll just trust God's will. We'll just we'll we'll as the Bible says through prayer and petition, we offer our requests to God. Yeah, so we're gonna do that, and um, we'll leave it in the Lord's very capable hands. And you've already got a daughter. Yes. So if he wants you to have more, you'll have more. Sure. Yeah, I agree, I agree 100%. Can I can I ask you a favor, KG? Sure. Because I want to take advantage of having a pastor here on the podcast. We're we're close now with the podcast, but would you would you wrap us up with a with a prayer for people that are listening to this podcast that they'd have a heart of courage, just as you've done for whatever endeavor they're going through in life. Would you do that for us? Sure, 100%. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:41

Yeah, no, let's pray together. Lord, um, we really just thank you so much um for what you did for us on the cross. And because of that, we draw strength and we draw courage from you because um you demonstrated your love for us to the point of death and death on the cross. And so we thank you so much for your initiation of our love to us and the steps you took and the sacrifice that came with it. Um and right now, um, I'm just grateful for Jeff. Thank you, Heavenly Father, for bringing us together. Thankful for um his wife Danielle, such a lovely family. Um, and um just pray, Lord, that uh this platform would continue to encourage many who may be discouraged. Um I mean, just like me, um someone didn't know uh what I went through, but today they get to hear how I uh what I went through and how I came out of um one of those situations and they might uh take courage and be um inspired and draw strength from this podcast. And we're really grateful for such platforms, Lord, where we can reach many without in even being physical with them. In fact, we are reminded of your words in John when you say it is to our advantage that you leave so that the Holy Spirit may come. And we see how sometimes we don't have to be in the same place with people for you to work, but you are able to reach them in their different places, different circumstances, um, far and close, Lord, and we entrust everyone who's listening to this podcast to you, and we pray that you uplift them and that they would have confidence in you. Because when we have confidence in you, we are driven with purpose. Um we are driven with courage, knowing that you are the one who upholds us in our hands. Um and what and who can do anything to us when we are in the hands of a mighty God. And so we thank you so much, Lord. And um I pray that you continue to fill our cup, strengthen us, encourage us, and that we would be bold in the midst of chaos, in the midst of corruption, in the midst of a decaying world. I pray that we would be bold and stand for the name that is above all names. The name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Thank you for giving us life. Thank you for the transform transformative work that you have done in our hearts. And we pray that you do so to others, Lord, that they may encounter and experience your love and your grace and your mercy. And most of all, if there's anything that we need courage from, it's this fact that you are coming back for us. And so we are not lost, we are not in limbo, and so we can draw strength from the fact that you are coming back, and when you come back, you are coming for your own. And so we love you and we thank you, Lord Jesus. Amen. Amen. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:24

Thank you, sir.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:28

Thank you for joining us today on Courageous. If you'd like to hear more about the work and ministry being done at Crossroads Apologetics, please visit our home on the web at crossroadsapologetics.org. Would you or someone you know like to be featured on courageous? Send us an email at infocroadsapologetics.com or info at crossroadsapologetics.org telling us about the most courageous thing you've ever done.