Dr. Whitney and the Courage to Honor God Through Suffering

In this thoughtful and deeply personal episode of Courageous Crossroads, Jeff Johnson sits down with Dr. Donald S. Whitney to explore biblical courage, spiritual formation, prayer, Scripture meditation, and faithful obedience in the hardest seasons of life. Dr. Whitney defines courage as the willingness to do what God calls us to do despite fear, consequences, or personal cost, and he illustrates that definition through the most courageous season of his own life: caring for his mother through the final years of dementia while seeking to honor her, support his wife, and remain obedient to the Lord. Along the way, he offers practical wisdom on Scripture intake, praying the Bible, meditation, the fear of man, and how the ordinary means of grace sustain believers when life becomes painful and confusing. Dr. Whitney serves as Professor of Biblical Spirituality and
the John H. Powell Professor of Pastoral Ministry at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, and he is the founder and director of the Center for Biblical Spirituality; after decades of pastoral ministry and seminary teaching, he is widely known for helping Christians pursue godliness through biblical spiritual disciplines.

Amazon links to selected books by Dr. Whitney: Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian Life; Praying the Bible; Family Worship: In the Bible, in History, and in Your Home; Ten Questions to Diagnose Your Spiritual Health; How Can I Be Sure I'm a Christian?: The Satisfying Certainty of Eternal Life; Simplify Your Spiritual Life;
Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian Life Study Guide. 

Clickable Amazon Book Links
- Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian Life
- Praying the Bible
- Family Worship: In the Bible, in History, and in Your Home
- Ten Questions to Diagnose Your Spiritual Health
- How Can I Be Sure I'm a Christian?: The Satisfying Certainty of Eternal Life
- Simplify Your Spiritual Life
- Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian Life Study Guide

Source note: Prepared from the Courageous Crossroads interview transcript supplied in this conversation. Amazon inventory and
pricing can change over time.

Thank you for listening! We hope you feel inspired and encouraged by our conversation today. If you did, be sure to share this episode with others.

Let's stay in touch:

• Follow us on Instagram @crossroadsapologetics
• Email us at info@crossroadsapologetics.org
• Visit our website www.crossroadsapologetics.org

See you in the next episode! Be blessed!

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:15

Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics. A look into what motivates us to step out in courage and the everyday bravery of men and women like you. In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this question: What's the most courageous thing you've ever done? And now your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

Hey everybody, this is Jeff. Welcome back to another edition of the Courageous Crossroads Podcast. I've missed you. I've been off for a few weeks curating new material and taking care of some other business. And it's so good to be back. And I cannot wait for you to jump in and listen to my next guest. Donald Whitney is the author of Spiritual Disciplines. And this is a book that I'm not kidding. I mean, it has really revolutionized my life. Certainly has changed my Bible reading habits all to the good and really infused me with a hunger for spiritual disciplines. And he's written a bunch of other books that we're going to talk about in this episode. But um I cannot wait for you to hear more from Dr. Whitney. So let me hush up here and we'll go ahead and jump into the podcast. So good to be back. So welcome everybody to the Courageous Crossroads Podcast. I have a I have an absolute pleasure of having Dr. Donald Whitney as our guest today. And I'm going to do something that I don't typically do. I'm going to read from read a bio from uh biblicalspirituality.org that introduces Dr. Whitney in a really good way. Let me read this for you. Don Whitney serves as the professor of biblical spirituality and the John H. Powell Professor of Pastoral Ministry at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Kansas City, Missouri. He's also the founder and director of the Center for Biblical Spirituality. Previously, he served as professor of spiritual formation at Midwestern Seminary from 1995 to 2005, then as professor of biblical spirituality and associate dean for the School of Theology at Southern Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky from 2005 to 2024. Before becoming a seminary professor, Whitney pastored Glenfield Baptist Church in Glen Ellen, Illinois, a suburb of Chicago, for nearly 15 years. In total, he has dedicated 24 years to pastoral ministry in local churches, both full-time and part-time. He's the author of Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian Life, which includes a companion discussion guide. He's also written several other books designed to help believers grow in their walk with Christ. That's the introduction off of the webpage. Now here are the introduction from Jeff. You guys can't see this because this is an audio-only podcast, but I'm holding in my hand a dog-eared, weathered, worn copy of Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian Life, which I have read through and highlighted and enumerated I don't know how many times. Before I was handed this book several years ago, I had I had hunted and pecked in the Bible, and I found a lot of good in there, but I had never been through the thing in toto. And once I read through this, Dr. Whitney, I read through your book, I was inspired with uh a suggested reading plan that you have in here. And I've read through the Bible, I think I just completed my 13th trip all the way through beginning to end. And I promise I'm gonna stop talking here in a second, but it's just I'm over the moon to have you as a guest. What I do is I go through the Bible and I highlight it, little things that the Lord brings to light, just things that are inspiring to me or questions that I might have, I put in the margin. And by the time I'm done reading through that entire Bible, it's got a couple of tear stains in it, some coffee stains in it, some sweat stains from my from my fingers, and all these highlights and these marks and these notes. And I and I open up the cover of the book and I dedicate it to one of my kids, and I say to them, This book changed my life. If you will read this book, it'll change your life too. Love Dad. And then I hand it to them. Each one of my kids has a couple of different versions, you know, an NIV or a ESV or a New Living Translation, or I've even read through the message one time, the New King James Version, all these different versions because of your reading plan. And I've handed it out to other people so much so that I'm handing it out to people that are outside of my family now, too, just as an encouragement for them to read the Bible because you've made that so possible for me. So too much of an introduction. Dr. Whitney, thank you so much, and thank you for joining us here today on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 5:04

Well, thanks for having me, Jeff. It's uh uh great to have this introduction to you. And uh looked over your your uh website. Looks like the Lord has been using this podcast, um, and and it's a pleasure to be on it.

SPEAKER_02 5:17

Wonderful. Wonderful. We center around the main question: what's the most courageous thing you've ever done? But I've got a couple of questions uh for you, and especially given your expertise and the things that you've written on spiritual disciplines, um, all of the work that you've done over decades, I wanted to ask a couple of questions as we lead up to that. The first one being how would you define courage from a biblical standpoint, and how does that differ from the world's definition, maybe?

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Oh, I wasn't prepared for that. I guess courage from a biblical standpoint would be the willingness to do what God tells you to do. Um that can be from just something plain command of scripture applied to a specific situation, to a if you will, what we sometimes call an impression, just uh a moving in your spirit that seems to be of the Lord that you should uh go share the gospel with this person, for example, or uh take this stand. So the willingness to do what uh God wants you to do, uh despite the fear uh associated with it, the consequences. And uh, how does that differ from the worldly perspective? Well, uh God is absent from that picture, from that definition in a worldly perspective. Um driven.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

Yeah, do you think courage is a given what you just said then, I like that. Do you think courage is a virtue that we develop, or is it just a gift that we receive, or is it something else entirely?

SPEAKER_01 7:03

Well, I mean, we have to admit it, you know, in our flesh dwells no good thing. Uh Bible says, so we have to ultimately give glory to God uh for anything we do that is right and good. Um yeah, I think it it it does have to be cultivated in some sense. You read the Bible, the Bible says I need to do this, am I gonna do that or not? And you you begin to develop a conviction that yes, you must do what God says regardless of the cost. In essence, that when you first become a believer, that that's part of it. You're saying, I'm gonna turn from myself, my will, what I want to the Lord and to his will and what he wants. And uh then that that disposition is cultivated more and more as you come under the authority of scripture, that's sola scriptura uh from the reformation. Scripture alone is the final authority in all matters of of faith and practice. And uh when you come to Christ, you believe that. You believe the scriptures are true, what they say about Jesus, his claims, his life, his death, you believe that is true. And that takes a God-given courage to believe that. And then that's just sort of representative of the Christian life from uh from that point to heaven.

SPEAKER_02 8:32

Um do you think courage is lacking in the American church today, or is it in abundance? That's not meant to be any kind of a political judgment or question, but I'm curious.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

Well, I mean, I I don't know how to evaluate that because uh I only see a tiny slice, no matter how much I travel or how aware I am of um Christian news, if you will. Um and uh so it's easy to criticize a church for its lack of courage. But I mean, even in uh some churches that try to be faithful to the Bible and and uh are conservative, try to be consistent, uh you can say, I I see a lack of a loving biblical church discipline, which when I was thinking through your question, how to answer this, what's the most courageous thing we've ever done? One of the first things that came to mind was as a pastor, the first time we uh uh uh led any church, uh uh, but the church I was pastoring, and the first time that church had been led through the practice of loving biblical church discipline that required a lot of courage uh for the pastor to do that and for the church to do that. So, yeah, there's there's a common lack of courage there. Um, do not fear man, the Bible says, and that that's a sin within the church as well. So, yeah, it's easy to say a lot of courage lacking. Um and you know, is it abundance? Well, yeah, I could think of other places. So, I mean, it's an impossible question to be for the answer to be verifiable. You you can find a lot of in a lot of indications either way.

SPEAKER_02 10:30

I wondered if it was a little bit of an unfair question, even as I wrote it, because I thought, you know, obedience is the objective, obedience to God's word, and then the courage that it takes, you know, based on what you just said, the courage that it takes to follow through with that, and then the Bible says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. So uh I suppose it's just a matter of degree constantly and all the time, and that's what we're about, and trying to pursue the things of the Lord. Yeah. Um is there a one more before the big question is there a difference between moral courage and physical courage? And which does scripture emphasize more?

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Well, there is a difference. There's an often an overlap, overlap, and sure the scripture is going to emphasize moral courage, uh doing the right thing, making the right stand. Uh and that that's often far more internal than it is uh physical courage. Um I think that's kind of intuitive. People see the difference. Courage on the battlefield is uh one of the highest forms of courage, but it is different than uh what Luther did. Here I stand, I can do no other, God help me. And where he took standing, you know, they said, uh, you know, every everybody, every church father, everything is against your position, Luther. And he said, Well, if it comes down to Martin Luther Contramundum, you know, Martin Luther against the whole world. Uh, you know, conscience uh violate my conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand. I can do no other. If the whole world is against me, this is where I have to come down. That's moral courage. And um that that's there's qualitative difference there in battlefield courage or other types of courage. So, yeah, there's a difference, there's a lot of overlap. Um, but the Bible would emphasize moral courage, of course, far more. Yeah, wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

Okay, well, that brings us to the primary question then, Dr. Donald Whitney, what is the most courageous thing you've ever done?

SPEAKER_01 12:36

I think it would have to be caring for my mother in the final eight years of her life, uh, from diagnosis, or actually the the presentation of dementia was there before it was diagnosed. But from first presentation to to death, uh cared for her. Um I'm an only child, so that that fell to me. My dad had died many years earlier. So um my wife and I undertook that responsibility. I did not want to pressure my wife to invite my mother to live with us because I assumed most of the responsibility would fall on my wife. My dad had died in 1985, so we're gonna go forward until 2009, uh, before she um yeah, she came to live with us, or that's when it began. I I I think it was 09, I would have to look. She died in August of 2018, and it was about seven years, so maybe we're back to 2011. But anyway, uh my mother had lived alone uh as a widow in a small town in Arkansas from uh 1985 um until um so what you know 25 years, a little over. So she lived actually as a widow longer than she was she was married, and uh, but she had a lot of friends. She had lived in this uh small town uh since the late 50s, and so um everyone in town knew her, she had very close relationships in the church, so she was able to survive well uh by herself. But then um my wife suggested in Christmas, uh, why don't we invite your mother to live with us? And so uh got on the phone and I said, No pressure, you don't have to think, decide right now, you give it some thought. And her next word was yes. So apparently she'd been thinking about this for a long time and was ready. And frankly, it surprised me. She was so entrenched in a house she'd lived in for 40 years and in a small town, but uh it was time, and so um uh the next uh well 11 months later, uh I went down and uh followed her back in her car to our home in near Louisville, and so she first moved into the house. Uh, we were having an apartment, uh, we were converting uh a large garage in the back to uh to an apartment, but it was still gonna be uh we thought um uh six months away, and it turned out to be longer than that. So she lived in the bedroom above ours uh for the majority of a year. I should also add that my wife's mother was living with us in our house at the same time and uh dealing with dementia. So uh there is an overlap of six months where both mothers were in our home. Uh we were caring for them. My wife's mother uh went back for the final six months to a year, I forget, of her life back to her son's house. But my mother uh stayed in the house for about a year, finally went to the apartment in our backyard and uh stayed there several more years. But the final three years of her life were in a memory care um uh facility. And she um she and my wife used to get along wonderfully. I have pictures of them with their heads together, you know, you know, leaning to into each other. And and my wife, as I said, was the one who initiated why don't we bring her here? They used to be so close. Well, within a month, Jeff, that relationship was totally destroyed. We found out later from uh close friends back in Arkansas where she lived, that uh she had been changing and we did not know it. So the dementia was already, you know, uh setting in, and that was manifested intensely um when she moved. Uh you're aware of the fact that when people have dementia, often there's a uh any significant changes in their lives, a move, health issue, often can bring them down another level. Well, that really happened through, I mean, moving's hard for anybody, but this is a uh a woman in her 80s alone, uh, you know, like five feet tall, 90 pounds, for her to have to sell her house, really the only time in her life to have to do that alone, move to a different state. So she just immediately had a uh cognitive uh you know uh lowering diminution, and uh the first way that manifested was it was an anger we'd never seen before, and and it finally just totally destroyed a relationship with my wife. And the reason why I I chose the fact that this was most courageous thing and so difficult is I, as I said, I didn't want to initiate with my wife. Why don't we have my mother come and live with us? Because I assume most of the responsibility would follow my wife. I had a job teaching at the seminary, I was uh traveling a lot, and I knew it'd fall on her, and I didn't want for her to feel any pressure of that. When she initiated it, I said, okay, well, within a month, now uh I've got to be the primary caregiver. Uh my wife took the brunt of the uh the anger for the first four years or so because uh she was at home. Uh mother, of course, was at home, even though most of that was in her apartment in the backyard. But they had a lot of interaction and it was hard and only got harder and it became very intense. But then I I would come home, and that would mean I'm kind of the mediator between two very upset people. And then in the final three years, I was the one who would have to uh go to the uh the facility and to care for her there, to bring things to her, to do things for her while I was there, the one to visit. Um and it just got harder and harder, of course, as it does in this kind of situation. And I had to do things and see things a son should never have to see or do. And it it took all the courage I had. I mean, the the motivation was this is God's will. God wants me to do this. Uh, I'm to honor my father and mother uh to the very end. Uh but man, was it hard?

SPEAKER_02 20:11

Wow. Wow. Thank you for sharing that, Dr. Whitney. And I'm so sorry that you had to go through all that. You and your wife, I I shared with you in an email beforehand that my mother likewise passed away. It's ironic that my mother passed away in October of 2018. I'm 58 years old. My mom died quite young, she was 75, and she was in a memory care unit as well. And I'm very familiar with what you're talking about, the how the personality changes. Ironically, my mother was, we didn't have the best relationship growing up, but when she when I was her primary caregiver, that changed and kind of softened a little bit. So I was able to get close to my mom towards the end. And it sounds like the the opposite happened with your mom. But I know that it's uh it's often more difficult on the caregivers. Um I'm curious, was there what got you through that? I mean, what was the thing that authored the courage to push you through that? Was it a specific spiritual discipline or was it a closeness with the Lord, crying out to him? I mean, what was it?

SPEAKER_01 21:18

Well, through the spiritual disciplines, which um you know I maintained, uh, that's where we experience God in some of the most consistent ways. And and he did. And so they did their job, if you will, by engaging in the spiritual disciplines, both the personal and interpersonal spiritual disciplines. The Lord sustained me through those biblical means of um sustaining grace. And that includes uh well, and then let me say my my wife also, uh, of course, uh, she uh knew how difficult it was because she had endured just some man, it's just unspeakable things that my mother would say or believe. And you know it's you don't want to say it's not her. We often do that. We all know what we mean by that. I think that can depersonalize uh someone it is her but with a profoundly changed biology, you know, with a brain that's not functioning normally. But in any event, when something comes out of her mouth and it's awful, it's still her face. It's still her voice. It looks and sounds like her, you know, the old her. But you know it's not. And so it it was difficult to maintain that distinction that normally my mother would not do this. She would not say this. But she's saying it right now and it sure looks like sure looks like her. So my wife's support for me um was another great means. But it was just there there were times Jeff I mean I I would come to my brothers in Christ my colleagues at the seminary who knew what I was going through because Tuesdays and Thursdays I would leave after after class I would go to the facility and before I'm going there I'm often talking with them and just the the stress the difficulty and I I would cry on their shoulders and they were very supportive.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

So the Lord just used the if you will the ordinary means of grace uh the spiritual disciplines uh which include the interpersonal spiritual disciplines which is to say the the the people yeah uh talking praying with people uh his people and uh that's how the Lord sustained me through it it's a it's a powerful testimony that you were such a good son and stayed by your mother through that with Don and I completely yeah I mean I empathize you're making me think back and I can remember so many different interactions that just came out of left field and I just had to plant my feet and continue to be of service because that's just what I had to do. There wasn't any other option. You know in in apologetics one of the primary questions is why does God allow evil and suffering? I'm curious because you're so steeped in the spiritual disciplines and you've done you've got such a body of work in that did your faith ever waver? Did you ever go outside and shout at the rain and you know what is this all about Lord? And if you did what brought you back to him?

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Yeah I shouted in the car a lot uh especially after uh some episodes it was it was often Lord why does this have to be prolonged I guess I can be taken in a in a very bad way it's not like I wanted her dead I just wanted this horrible existence she had by extension to me that that I had responsibilities in. I I was just ready for that relief. And if you've not been in a situation like that it's maybe hard to understand. It's hard to even express uh you know death is coming you know it's a reality you don't want someone dead but you do want for their sake and for yours for the the trauma of this to be over the suffering to be over you believe someone is is going to heaven and you and to be with Jesus you know that's infinitely better indescribably better and in the worst moments you say Lord that's coming why why not let it happen now that's far better why does this suffering need to be prolonged I don't understand and in that you know you asked so many times that question that the Lord rarely answers and that's why um yeah many times I was shouting why uh how long oh Lord must have do not answer just like the psalmist said so faith never wavered but frustration was there for sure. Yeah that's a better way of saying it yeah I I never wanted to walk away I never doubted God I just questioned what what I don't understand why this has to go on so long.

SPEAKER_02 26:50

Some people will say man you know a year or two maybe three from diagnosis to death um and you know it just seemed to be so much longer and harder than a lot of people have to go through and yet I've known people you know it was 10 years from diagnosis to death and uh I had a longtime friend he was one of my first seminary professors and uh he was still in his 20s late 20s at the time we became friends then and still are today uh you know 50 years later he uh would go to the uh facility and and and spoon feed his mother-in-law when she had dementia and every day and she didn't even know him she wasn't grateful you know he just did it solely in the eyes of the Lord alone and he did that for like four years and I thought I cannot do this four years it's impossible and it turned out to be seven uh basically and um you know it got worse and worse and worse at the beginning it wasn't that hard it wasn't as hard as having a spoon feed her without even her recognizing you it was it wasn't close to that but it it was just Lord how long just like David cried out how long oh Lord will I cry and you will not hear yeah one of your um um I shouldn't be so self-effacing I'm not trying to make this about me Don but I I'd be remiss one of your books about praying the scriptures had a tremendous impact on me as well and that was a psalm that I was praying at my mother's bedside getting emotional thinking about it but it was come quickly Lord you know I mean that was the cry was come quickly and it wasn't that just exactly the way you put it I didn't want my mom dead but I didn't want her to have to suffer like this anymore. And so anyway um well thank you for that story. Thank you so much for being so transparent about that Don. I think that's uh something a lot of our listeners can relate to and it's gonna bless them a lot knowing that you went through that can I ask you some more about the spiritual disciplines maybe the topic of courage um in your decades of studying and teaching spiritual disciplines have you found that people who practice them consistently tend to be more courageous? What's the connection?

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Yeah courage would be it's not specifically one of the uh parts of the fruit of the spirit but it is certainly a a derivative of those and yeah uh courage is a godly characteristic it's a Christ-like characteristic how do we become more Christ-like or godly well specific answer in 1 Timothy 47 is discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness that's the theme verse the book you referenced earlier Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian life that's a theme verse for that book and the practical biblical ways we do that is to discipline ourselves to use the biblical spiritual disciplines for the purpose of godliness so if you practice the biblical disciplines with the right motive uh they will promote godliness part of godliness or christlikeness is courage so yes spiritual disciplines practice rightly with the right motives uh promote courage what was what was the catalyst for you to write that book spiritual disciplines for the Christian life oh I imagine that was a courageous endeavor well writing any book for most people is a courageous endeavor now there's some people say I can't not write uh I have a colleague like that he's just his laptop is open wherever he carries it everywhere he goes and uh he's able to just write you know for 90 seconds uh if he's waiting somewhere for somebody I I can't do that it it is it is a hard courageous thing for someone like me and uh it it's a layered story how I got to write that book and and just compress it as much as I can I grew up in a uh a home where my dad modeled daily Bible reading I grew up in a church where um you were asked every Sunday uh on a little offering envelope uh did you read your Bible every day this week that was just the air we breathe I knew every person who came to church early Sunday school was being asked regardless of age or anything else everyone is being asked did you read your Bible every day this week that was just the expectation in our church and so I began reading pretty early I'm told like you know age four or something and I and in the Sunday school literature they gave us inside the back cover was 90 daily Bible readings you know one for each day during that quarter and my dad followed that I you know I was taught to follow that and and so Jeff I I literally have no memory of not reading the Bible every day of not doing that wow yeah so that was just ingrained into my life before I can remember it happening so uh it's not a decision every day. You know I made that decision um you know 66 or 67 years ago and so that's just a part of my life. Well uh so I I grew up in a church like that it was modeled for me in the home then when I got to college I didn't know I'd never seen a Christian bookstore before they weren't certainly as popular as they later became this is in the mid-70s. So I went into the first Christian bookstore of my life and the first Christian book I bought and read was one on prayer. And then um just over time I began to be very curious about the various spiritual disciplines. I read a book right after my first month after seminary graduation on spiritual disciplines. I I didn't know that term I never I knew the practices in that book pretty much but I never had thought of them in a collectivist kind of way never thought of them altogether and they have a name and they're called the spiritual disciplines so that was the first time I'd crossed that intellectual threshold and then uh my first pastorate the first sermon series I did was on the spiritual disciplines um and then I I read a book that same uh year my first pastorate a biography of Dawson Trotman founder of the navigators who was a great model of personal personal spiritual disciplines there are some uh in one sense some illegalistic tendencies and uh not a model for interpersonal spiritual disciplines but for the personal spiritual disciplines he was a powerful model in many ways and so that took my understanding uh a little deeper and so uh the last kind of step was in my uh before my PhD I did a doctorate ministry and my uh one of the uh papers I did was a a um sort of a survey of the spiritual disciplines and that became the the sort of skeletal outline for the book and I met some people with the navigators that connected me with nav press we talked through this and they said yeah that's kind of right up our alley we'd be open to a proposal on that I wrote the manuscript and uh they published it and that's uh been my most well-known book and uh that opened all the doors for me to teach in seminary and and everything else so uh that's a long convoluted story behind that but in God's providence you know it goes back to my childhood.

SPEAKER_02 34:52

No, and it's fantastic it it fits with the the definition of courage biblical courage and that whole obedience thing too you know this is the Lord just leading you to it and you're just continuing to follow through and and do the work which I think people will gain a lot of inspiration from. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

Um what you do you have a specific set routine that you go through every day yes and no and I don't like to I I I will a little bit here but I generally like to talk about it because I don't want people and usually I'm in the context of my seminary students I don't want them to think of me as the example this is the way it is done. It has changed over the years and uh the basic elements I mean the spiritual disciplines remain the same for everyone every Christian and we're all different and but the disciplines themselves are in place. In other words what meditation looks like for me meditational scripture is may is not the way someone else may emphasize it in the spiritual disciplines book um I have like 17 different methods of meditation uh I'm uh trying to write a little book on meditation which I have about 24 25 now methods of meditation well Jeff one of those you may say I wouldn't do that in 500 years but the next person I talk to may be man this is the way for me to do it so there's not one way to meditate on scripture but we're all to meditate on scripture so um that makes sense in terms of time of day order or order of things or um it's going to be a little different for anyone but the two major ones are going to be uh the intake of scripture and prayer some people may say well journaling yeah I just I I tried I'm not a journaler okay I don't think this scripture compels us to do that it does tell us to meditate on scripture a journal is a great way to help meditate on scripture helps you stay focused record your thoughts but some people uh no so they would never uh do that but the two most important are going to be the intake of the word of God and prayer and within each of those there's an almost universal problem with the intake of scripture the problem tends to be we read it and we may read a lot we may read three chapters five chapters every day we close our Bible and most people would say if pressed you know I don't remember a thing I read in fact I'm not even sure I can tell you where I read well that does very little good I mean it does some good don't stop that and reading is the starting place for sure uh that's where we start but for way too many people that is the ending place but reading is the exposure to scripture meditation is the absorption of scripture and it's through the absorption of scripture that we experience God and experience transformation of life that enables the scriptures to percolate deep into the soil of our soul and you know we experience spiritual reality in in biblically um uh supported ways and most people just don't do that that's why they say I I don't even remember what I read I can't remember the last time I had any experience with God through the intake of scripture so uh that's solution to that is meditation you can do that 10 minutes you know if you only have 10 minutes great don't read for 10 minutes read for five meditate for five something like that it's better to read less if necessary and remember something than to read more and remember nothing. So everyone needs to have Bible intake every day. Reading alone probably is not sufficient meditation needs to be in there. The other most important personal spiritual is prayer but again I find there's an almost universal problem there. People tend to say the same old things about the same old things in prayer and after a while that becomes boring. And when prayer is boring we tend not to pray well just like the problem just like the universal problem with intake of scripture there's a universal problem in prayer I think that's I just described it and there's a simple permanent biblical solution to both and it has to be simple right if God expects all of his people all over the world to meditate on scripture and pray it's got to be simple because you think of the great differences in age IQ education but if we're all to do the very same things got to be pretty simple. And in prayer I think the simple permanent biblical solution is when you pray, pray the Bible and by that I mean you you you turn the words of a passage of scripture into prayer I find that most simply and easily done the Psalm that's where I usually take people to teach them how to do this. So you take a psalm like uh Psalm 23 the Lord is my shepherd you read that and you pray things like Lord thank you that you are my shepherd you're a good shepherd would you shepherd my family today guide them into the ways of God guard them from the ways of the world lead them not into temptation deliver them from evil would you cause them to be your sheep too? And Lord would you shepherd me in this big decision that's before me today I I want to do your will. Shepherd me Lord into what that is and I pray for under shepherds at the church. So what the Bible brings to mind when you read the Lord is my shepherd that's what you pray about. And when you can't think of anything else you go to the next line I shall not want. And on and on you just go through a passage praying about what the Bible brings to mind until you run out of psalm or you run out of prayer run out of time. If you run out of psalm okay go to the next one if you run out of time which would be true for most people you have filled the time with biblical praying and here's the real insight there you never again say the same old things about the same old things and you didn't have to try to think up something to be different. You just prayed your way through a passage of the Bible and talk to God about what came to mind. So you know you're going to pray pretty close to biblical ways when you're praying the Bible you don't have to think up things uh your mind doesn't wander as much and uh I I just find it a a simple permanent biblical solution to this almost universal problem. So to back up and go back to where we started the two most important personal spiritual disciplines are the intake of the word of God and prayer. And I think we should all make time for at least those two every day. And that was prompted by your question what do I do in my personal life? Well I think all of us should include at least those two uh basic personal spiritual disciplines yeah and again the courage naturally comes from that obedience with the Lord that you find through those spiritual disciplines so there's the courage um very much a byproduct am I reading that correctly yeah exactly I mean you meditate on scripture and uh you're when it's appropriate for that you're going to think about courage now maybe not like that but you think okay I believe God is leading me to share the gospel with this person here uh Lord uh help me to do that I want to do that and you you struggle with uh you know how am I going to do that and is am I embarrassed to do that or whatever. Well that's dealing with courage, right? And how did that come up? Uh you praying through passage of scripture.

SPEAKER_02 43:34

The another personal testimony again from your writings that's praying through scripture which is I you know I don't want to use hyperbolic terms like transformational Don but that's exactly what's happened. I run a our listeners know I run a steel company and we got a couple hundred thousand square foot facility and I I enjoy going down there and praying over the plant when everybody's gone. And the first time I prayed the scriptures and the Psalms as your book recommends I had I had an epiphany that I was more aligning my will with God's, and I was being more authentic in my prayer, and it really felt like I was holding somebody's hand when I was going through those prayers. And it was just a it was such a warm, a warm feeling. And I suppose there's no we wouldn't call any of that magic. We would just call that the will of God and interacting with the scriptures in a real way.

SPEAKER_01 44:26

Yeah, well, back to what I said about experiencing God. Um we taste spiritual reality in biblically appropriate ways through the spiritual discipline. So in you that's the way it ought to be, right? If we're to experience God in regular ways in this world, it's going to come through his word and through prayer. And the other means by which he uh we engage with God. And so uh you were just in a very biblical way praying through a passage. Yeah, I hear that kind of story all the time. Uh, it was like a real conversation with a real person. Right. And yeah, and we are told in first John, isn't it, that if yeah, we if that we should pray in accordance with his will. Well, Jeff, can you have any greater assurance you're praying the will of God than when you're praying the word of God?

SPEAKER_02 45:22

Right.

SPEAKER_01 45:23

That doesn't mean you can't take a word from scripture and twist it, make it selfish or whatever. But uh overall, I don't think there's any greater assurance you're praying the will of God than when you're praying the word of God. So no wonder. Uh it's becoming like a real conversation. God is speaking to you through his word. The the Bible is God speaking, right? And so you take something God says to you and you speak back to him exactly about what he just said. And that's why people say it felt like a real conversation with a real person, because it is a real person. That's the essence of prayer, right? You're talking with a real person, and in his word, that real person is speaking to you. So, and it's just so simple. Six-year-old who can read uh can do this.

SPEAKER_02 46:14

Yeah, it's beautiful. And we're taught in if you've gone through any counseling with your wife, you know, pre-marriage counseling or after you're married, one of the things that you want to do is make the assure the person that they've been heard. And a way to do that is to parrot back to them what they just said to you as evidence that you've just heard that. And gosh, it felt like the same thing. You know, I was affirming the scriptures and then I was saying it out of my own mouth too, and partnering with it. So, well, I I want to be respectful at time, and I could I could ask you questions all all day, Don. But um before I get to a couple of the final questions for you, let me delve into the spiritual discipline business just because I have a personal question about this. So your book led me to um seven minutes, seven minutes, seven minutes, and seven minutes, because I had a 30-minute time frame. So I do the Bible intake and the prayer and the meditation and the journaling. And sometimes I do that setting an actual timer, you know, because it helps me, you know, be disciplined and bounded and whatever. And if the Lord Scott wants me to go beyond that, I just go ahead and go beyond that. But it's been a beautiful 7777 kind of primer for me most mornings. The one that seems to be the most difficult for me is the meditation. When I sit quietly and I understand a difference between, I'm not sure if I read this in your book, forgive me, or someplace else, but the difference between Eastern meditation and Western meditation. Eastern is this emptying out business, and Western meditation, the Christian meditation is like the famous sermon by Thomas Chalmers, you know, the expulsive power of a new affection. This is putting something in instead in the meditation. What's the trick to meditation? I or am I just a hard case? I have a hard time sitting quietly listening to God.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

I uh well, I think that's very common. I mean, we know all the statistics about our uh short um uh uh attention span and how it's getting shorter, you know, it's just a matter of you know seconds is almost the best we can do. So it's hard then to focus, uh especially when it's we're focusing on a truth, a a not necessarily a a flower that we can, it's tangible, we can look at it from different perspectives. We're we're talking about a verse of scripture and conveying truth. So um, and there's so many distractions and attention to a short time span. There's, I mean, my phone has been dinging uh, you know, while we're sitting here, and uh uh a workman uh uh was walking by uh these windows here, and you know, we have distractions. I don't have to, you know, beat a dead horse there. Everybody knows about a problem with distractions. So you put all that together, yeah. It's harder for us to meditate than any generation ever in the history of the world, but we just we have to learn to adapt to that because we're still to meditate on scripture. That's why I have um you know 17 different methods of meditation in in my spiritual disciplines book. And I tell you, one of the great things about praying the Bible again is that is a method of meditation on scripture. So when you read the Lord is my shepherd, and you think, How can I pray that? Lord, thank you that you are my shepherd, and you pray several things about that, you're you're soaking in that phrase, the Lord is my shepherd. So that is an easy, beautiful way that is not only a uh a method of prayer, it's also a method of uh meditation. Another one of the very simple ones is to focus on one word at a time. So um uh, you know, um one of the ones I frequently use is uh where Jesus said in John 11, I am the resurrection and the life. So you just sort of squeeze it one word at a time. I am the resurrection and the life, Jesus said of himself. So Jesus, Jesus alone is the resurrection and the life. There is no other, it's only in Jesus, the resurrection and the life. Okay, next time through, I am the resurrection and the life. Okay, it's present tense. Right now, this moment, Jesus is a resurrection and the life, not just in Bible times, right now. I am the resurrection and the life. Again, the one and only. There's only one resurrection and life, and it's Jesus. I am the resurrection and the life, he is the bodily resurrection, he is the spiritual resurrection. Well, anybody can do that, you just focus on one word at a time. It's a method that helps you focus on the text of scripture. And yeah, we could talk at length about context and you know how easy it is to miss the context if you're getting that granular in the text. But I uh nevertheless, uh, even people who know a lot about context and interpreting the Bible and so forth, they do that too. They focus on individual words and word studies. So it's just a simple thing, and anyone can do that. You just focus on it one word at a time, that helps you stay more focused. I I find that one helpful when I'm sleepy, are really a distraction. It gives me something to put my mind on and not let my mind wander.

SPEAKER_02 51:51

That's wonderful. Wonderful. Um, okay, as promised, just a couple more questions, and then I'll thank you so much for your time. This one is a little bit, I it's negatively phrased. I wasn't sure if I could ask it, but I'm gonna go ahead and do it anyway. I'm gonna be courageous and ask this question. What does cowardice look like in a spiritually mature person? Is it even possible? Or is it a sign that's that something in the formation process has been neglected?

SPEAKER_01 52:19

Yeah, it's possible if you take the passages, especially in previous Proverbs, uh, that talk about the fear of man. Well, anyone can commit that sin, even godly Christians, that uh I want to share the gospel with this person, but I think the Lord is inclining me to share the gospel with this person. But man, I don't know. It could be embarrassing, it could be uh maybe it's not the right time. They'll think I'm trying to be Mr. Spiritual, and they they don't do what God is prompting them to do. So, yeah, that's cowardice. Underneath it's the fear of man, and the same is true about for a leader, a speaker, a preacher to preach, to say something in the message that uh you're fearing the congregation. It's it's a divisive subject, um, or their most of their views are different than what you believe the Bible says, and so to have the courage to speak it uh is difficult. And some people chicken out, as we used to say. Even though they're committed to preaching the Bible. So yeah, it's uh whenever we fail to do what God clearly tells us to do, that that is cowardice, and Christians can sin that sin like just about any other sin.

SPEAKER_02 53:44

Jonah. Yeah, Jonah had some cowardice turning away from Nineveh, going the wrong direction. Yeah. Um C.S. Lewis called courage, quote, the form of every virtue at its testing point, unquote. Do you agree with that framing and how does that sit with your understanding of the discipline?

SPEAKER_01 54:05

Well, when he says the word every, I you know, I'd have to stop and think. I mean, I I like a lot of that. Right now I can't think of an objection to that, but uh I'd have to sit with that for sit with that for a while, but I like it. You may be right.

SPEAKER_02 54:20

Um last two. If you could prescribe one spiritual discipline to the American church right now that would most directly address its courage deficit, what would it be and why?

SPEAKER_01 54:33

Meditation on scripture. Um it is the uh I think the most it's the spiritual discipline most needed by even our most devoted daily Bible readers, the people who say I read the Bible every day, I read a lot of it every day, still most of them will not meditate on scripture. And it's through meditation that transformation of life comes. Your life is not changed by something you don't think about. And meditation in the simplest form is thinking about what the Bible says. And the Bible has the power to change our minds and our lives, it is the living truth, and if we think about it, it will change us. Uh, the problem is we don't, you know, we don't think about it. So, yeah, I think that's the greatest single devotional need of most Christians, meditation on scripture. And if I had the power to change the devotional life of every Christian on the planet, it would be right there in uh meditation on scripture.

SPEAKER_02 55:34

Like your dad had you do when you were little.

SPEAKER_01 55:37

He didn't have me do it, but yeah, I mean he modeled it for me and guided me, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:41

Wow. Well, you might have just answered the very last question, but I'll ask it anyway. What would you say to the listener who knows? People are listening now and they know that they should do something, the courageous thing, but they simply can't make themselves do it. Where do they start?

SPEAKER_01 55:56

Well, a lot of possible answers to that. I I would say to most people, they're they're probably going to argue, I don't have the time. Well, I mean, there's no magic bullet. You have to invest some time, but I'll I'll speak to those that I assume are investing some time in this in the spiritual disciplines. So let's say you only have 10 minutes. Okay, I get that. You gotta invest sometime, or it's you know, you're not gonna be changed by the word of God. But uh you can practice meditational scripture, praying the Bible in 10 minutes. And it'll be the kind of ten minutes I think you'll find you want to expand voluntarily. So again, maybe it's just a paragraph, maybe it's a chapter, but don't read for 10 minutes. Read for five minutes, meditate for five minutes, and that form of meditation may be to go back and pray through something you just read through. Or maybe it's just you're going to do it with one verse. I've seen, I know one woman spent 25 minutes, you know, on uh the first five words of Psalm 23, you know, the Lord is my shepherd. Five words, 25 minutes. Um, but if you only have 10 minutes, I mean, there where there's a will, there's a way. So if a person really does want to experience God more, and they are they have to use the biblical means God has given us to experience Him, that's going to take some time. I mean, God is the highest priority. You say you don't have time for the highest priority. So, but realistically, some days if you only have 10 minutes, don't read for 10 minutes. Read for five, meditate for five. I often put it this way: read my my general rule for encountering the Lord every day is read big, meditate small. Read a big section of scripture, and by big I mean a whole chapter, maybe, or three chapters, not just a verse, uh hopefully, but you you read a big section, but then you come back and meditate on one part of that, like one verse. So we need the context. That's where the reading comes from. That's read big. We need to know the the narrative uh of scripture. You need to know the story of the prodigal son, the whole thing, rather than just one verse. But after you've read the whole story, the prodigal son, come back, one verse perhaps you focus on. And you can do all that in 10 minutes.

SPEAKER_02 58:39

Wonderful. Wonderful, wonderful. Uh, Dr. Whitney, I could go on forever, but I'm gonna leave it there and just thank you so much for your time. I can't tell you what a pleasure this has been. You know, the Lord has has completely and totally transformed and changed my life, and your book helped put my hand in his in the most profound way. And so I I'm forever grateful. And um, on behalf of the listeners, we appreciate everything that you had to share with us today. You're an amazing teacher, an amazing son, and a man of great courage. Thank you so much for being with us.

SPEAKER_01 59:12

You're very welcome, Jeff.

SPEAKER_03 59:16

Thank you for joining us today on Courageous. If you'd like to hear more about the work and ministry being done at Crossroads Apologetics, please visit our home on the web at crossroadsapologetics.org. Would you or someone you know like to be featured on Courageous? Send us an email at infocroadsapologetics.com or info at crossroadsapologetics.org. Telling us about the most courageous thing you've ever done.