Madeline Dean: One Courageous Choice at a Time

In this powerful episode of Courageous Crossroads, Jeff Johnson sits down with Madeline Dean for a deeply honest conversation about trauma, addiction, incarceration, recovery, faith, and the ongoing courage it takes to choose change. Madeline shares how early childhood wounds, mental health struggles, and addiction led her through painful seasons, including time in Mitchellville, but also how honesty, mentorship, therapy, spiritual growth, and programs like Change Course helped her begin building a new life one courageous decision at a time. When asked the most courageous thing she has ever done, Madeline answers simply and profoundly: deciding to change. Her story reminds listeners that courage is not always one dramatic moment —it is strength, action, persistence, hope, and faith practiced over and over again in the small, difficult choices of daily life. Madeline Dean is a Change Course graduate, a woman in recovery, a student of personal and spiritual growth, and a passionate advocate for honesty, healing, mental health awareness, addiction recovery, and support for those impacted by incarceration. Through her vulnerability and hard-won wisdom, Madeline offers a compelling testimony of resilience, redemption, and the belief that no one is beyond hope.

Thank you for listening! We hope you feel inspired and encouraged by our conversation today. If you did, be sure to share this episode with others.

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See you in the next episode! Be blessed!

Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:15

Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics, a look into what motivates us to step out in courage, and the everyday bravery of men and women like you. In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this question: What's the most courageous thing you've ever done? And now your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

Hey friends, welcome back to another edition of the Courageous Crossroads Podcast. Madeline Dean. Madeline Dean is my next guest on the podcast, and I cannot wait for you to hear her story. She is a recent graduate of the Change Course program, which is a program local here in Des Moines that helps people with soft skills and hard skills that come up from difficult situations and get fully employed and fully engaged back in the workforce and back in society. And it's a wonderful, wonderful charity, Change Course. And Madeline is a shining star that just recently graduated from the program, and I'm happy to call her a new friend of mine. I was at the graduation ceremony for Change Course where Madeline had the opportunity to get up and speak, and she was so eloquent and so um vibrant with her gratitude and her thanksgiving and um the optimism about what lay ahead that it just really captivated me. And you'll hear me talk a little bit about that in the interview. But anyway, here is Madeline Dean with her answer to the question what's the most crazy.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

Thank you, first of all, for coming to my graduation and just being there and being a part of Change Course and everything you do for Change Course because it makes a huge difference.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

Well, thank you for saying that, and you're very, very, very welcome. It's easy when I hear the stories of people like you. I mean, it was just I was totally blown away. So um yeah, thanks for being on the thanks for being on the podcast today. Let me mute my phone here, get myself settled. You got your water, I got my coffee. Go off. We're ready to have a conversation.

SPEAKER_03 2:27

So that's right.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Hey everybody, welcome back to another edition of the Courageous Crossroads Podcast. I've got, I'm so excited for this guest today, Madeline Dean. I I got to hear her the tiniest bit of her. I don't know her story. So this is why we're having you on today to hear more of your story and mainly how you answer that question, what's the most courageous thing you've ever done? But I got to hear Madeline get up and speak at a graduation ceremony for um accomplishing a huge goal, and I was and I was just blown away with the the presence of you, Madeline, and uh the way you carried yourself and the courage that it took to go from where you've been to where you are now. So, whatever you want to share with us today is is fair game. We're just gonna have a nice little conversation, and um so nice to meet you. Thank you for joining us.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

Nice to meet you as well, and thank you for having me. And uh welcome to everybody that's gonna be listening to this. And I really hope that I can share something that touches everyone. And from my experience, I know um when I look for the similarities, I can find them. So hopefully, uh this my story can touch somebody, or somebody can get something out of it today, and I'm happy to be talking with you.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Wonderful, well said, well said. So uh let's learn a little bit about you, Madeline, wherever you want to jump in. Your t-shirt says, I love your t-shirt, this is there is hope.

SPEAKER_02 4:00

Yeah, that's right. This is Bradford Johnson's artwork. Um yeah, so supporting the change course mission. Um, and I guess that's kind of where I'm at right now in life. Um, I could I could start there and backtrack just a little bit. Um but I I did just graduate from Change Course, a nonprofit program for professional and personal development. And um, it's been a huge foundation in um the story of courage that I want to share with you guys today. So um, yeah, I mean, I was born in Minnesota. My parents got divorced when I was young. We moved down to Iowa, my mom, my sister, and I, and we lived with her parents, my Nan and Bapa, as me and all my friends will always call them.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

And um yeah, and whereabouts in Minnesota and whereabouts in Iowa?

SPEAKER_02 5:03

So Rochester, Minnesota, up there by the Mayo Clinic, yeah. And then uh we moved down to West Des Moines, is where we initially landed and where we've been most of the time, yeah. And so um I grew up going to school and I went to Montessori school as a child. I think that kind of factors into my story a little bit. Um, because I was always uh from the beginning, I was given an alternate way to learn. And uh in our country, there's you know, pretty much a one size fits all education system, and unless you seek out other other things. And fortunately for me, um, my parents thought it would be important and good for me, and I had a lot of energy. Um, I was very intelligent from a very young age, um, not to sound, you know, egotistical or anything like that, but these are the things that I was told, you know, um, and it's just interesting to where my story leads. Um, you know, almost a little bit too smart for my own good at times where uh it caused boredom. Um, and I think that's kind of times when I would start messing around with um acting out. And uh I think that my story really centers around dealing with mental illness and um mine and the people around me, you know, because we are shaped so much by the people around us.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

And um and you said your parents had separated.

SPEAKER_02 6:46

Yes, yes, yes. And then um I had a relationship with my dad. Uh he'd visit on the weekends, things like that, until I was about 12 years old, and then um we didn't have a relationship again until I reached out at 16 and I really tried to make that relationship work. Um, it hasn't been until I'm 31 now, about to be 32 in September, and we have a very good relationship now. Um, but that's something we've had to build over the years.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

And so you had large gaps where you weren't around your dad.

SPEAKER_02 7:20

Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

Yes, yes, that was that was that was tough for you.

SPEAKER_02 7:25

Oh, for sure, yeah. I think it's tough for any kid, and um for girls, you know, it's it's great to have a good ri male figure in your life, of course. Um, and then also the confusion that comes with was it something I did? Is this uh, you know, does this have something to do with me? Um and you know, and that's translated in my life to many different in many different ways, things like struggling with time management, you know, and I've through therapy and things like that been able to trace that back to, you know, I don't ever want to let anybody down. I have, you know, small fears of abandonment that I work on, you know, and um they didn't used to be so small, you know, and they they can kind of run the show if you're not aware of them. Sure. And so uh luckily for me, you know, my symptom was um first alcohol and then uh drugs, you know. At 16, I was a full-blown alcoholic, and I had um, well, let me just let me not skip one part right there. I was in everything as a child. I danced for eight years, I did taekwondo, I was I played tackle football, I played soccer, basketball, you know, I was always kept busy and um diagnosed with ADHD at 11, put on medication. Um, and my parents and my family were doing exactly the best they could in what they knew how to do at that time, you know. Um in retrospect, I wish, you know, there would have been some other things before the medications, but you know, that's my story, and I've lived through it and I'm great today, you know.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

So were you fantastic today? I'm telling you. But were you were you uh unhappy as a child? Were you depressed? Were you uh happy and just dealing with it? I mean, what was that kind of yeah, yeah, and you know what?

SPEAKER_02 9:34

I'm gonna share this because that's part of my story of courage is um just being honest and just uh saying the hard things sometimes. And I know for me, uh sometimes they come out messy the first time, but whenever I speak the truth, my truth, as long as I'm not harming anybody, you know, I always feel better. So that's something I've tried to practice, you know, and um the truth of the matter was that there was another family member living in the house, and I was uh molested by a family member for many years, unbeknownst to anybody else in the house. Um, so you know, there obviously um that would be pretty hard as a parent or a sibling or anybody to later find out or know. Um, and especially when it's a family member, it's something that I didn't even ever know if well I knew right away as a small child that this was my secret to keep and I had to protect the family. And I took that role on, which was detrimental, you know, in the long run, um, because I wasn't taking care of myself. And it started to show at school, um, in elementary school. I mean, I got called into the office a couple of times for picking on kids, and I have the kindest heart, you know. Like before this, um my teachers told my mom the only problem at conferences was the only problem is Maddie's a little too empathetic, you know. She she really cares, you know, when it's involving other people when she doesn't need to, you know, and I'm like, oh, you know, that this is something that I have always kind of dealt with. But, you know, um, yeah, I just I knew that I needed to, and I knew too from a young age that there was something that happened to this person that made this happen. You know, I knew that I had a pretty good I had pretty good.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

You had empathy for the person that was abusing you because you're like, there's a reason why they're doing this. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

Right, right. No, thank you for saying that because that I mean that does yeah, that encapsulates exactly what I what I felt. And um, you know, and then I I I changed to public school, I went to public school for a while, I did great, um, got in a little bit of trouble here and there, but you know, in retrospect, it was for attention. And um, I did have an amazing male role model in my life, who was my grandfather, uh, my mom's dad, and he worked a lot. So that was kind of the only downside to not seeing him as much in the house, um, and things like that. So, but as far as a good male role model, I couldn't have asked for anyone better. I mean, he taught me how to talk to people, look people in the eyes, shake people's hands, you know, and he came from very little and worked his way to be successful. Um, so he showed me that it was possible. And something he always said to me was stay the course. No matter what it is, stay the course. And um, he passed away about a year before I went into change course. And so that whole time I was really, you know, I knew he was there and was gonna be so proud of me if I finished it. So that was a huge motivator for me.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

He and nobody knew that the abuse was going on though.

SPEAKER_02 13:15

No, no, no. And um, so then it translated to um, you know, and I think I dealt with mental health. I think I dealt with anxiety and depression and ADHD, and um, I think I might have had some dyslexia as well, um, but also like fought through it, and that just shows how resilient, you know, we can be when we need to be. So um, yeah, I I really enjoyed going.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

Can I can I interrupt you, Maddie, and ask you maybe a tough question?

SPEAKER_03 13:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

Um, did you feel like you had good advocates with your parents? I mean, was that a safe space, even though if they didn't know what was going on, did you feel like I'm okay in my home? You know, I can come home and I can be comforted, and even if they're not dealing with the ADHD, you know, like as you say now in retrospect, I wish they would have done something different. Did you feel like they were a safe place for you?

SPEAKER_02 14:16

Yeah, absolutely. Like my my grandma and my grandpa were always there. Um, my mom was always there. My mom battled with depression through my childhood, and it was visible to me. Um, and you know, she had just gotten out of a she had just gone through a divorce, and you know, so it made sense to me, but it lasted longer than it should have. And so I kind of watched that too. And my mom, she was there for everything. She showed up for every sporting event, all of those kind of things. But it's the same thing with drugs, alcohol, it doesn't matter what it manifests as. Um, when you have something like that, it puts a veil in between you and the other person, you know, from true connection. So I think that um, and I I didn't ever want to tell anybody because I didn't ever want to have my family looked upon differently. I never wanted anybody to take the blame for it. Um, I didn't even want him to feel bad, you know. So that's that's honestly um how I felt for a very, very long time. Um, and I don't think that that was like my reason for the path that I took. I think that there was a lot of reasons. Um, but yeah, I mean, I think that my family, they were great. I mean, we went to Disney World, we went out of the country, we went on um, you know, we always had everything we needed. We were well taken care of, um, and always told that we could do anything we wanted, um, you know, things like that. Like they they definitely were trying their hardest. But what I have learned is generational trauma and and generational patterns are real, and um it takes real work to stop them. You can't just say, Oh yeah, I see that pattern and hope it ends. Takes real work.

SPEAKER_03 16:16

So um takes a lot of courage, takes a lot of courage, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 16:21

Unfortunately, you know, my family um through my journey has taken that path with me, you know, and grown also and been very courageous through my whole journey, you know, and stood by me because it was a scary, scary ride at times, you know, I'm sure for my life.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

You have siblings?

SPEAKER_02 16:42

Um, I do. I grew up with a sister who's five years older than me, and her name is Hillary. And um I mean she taught me everything I know. I look up to her. Uh, she's the greatest person in the world. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

And she's still she's still in your life close.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

Yes, yes. And then I have some step siblings and some half-siblings. Um that I know, some that I don't know. Um, yeah, so and that's kind of been a pattern in my family too. And I think it's always been out of protection and out of a good place, but uh, you know knowing things as a kid. Obviously, kids don't need to know everything, but as I've gotten older, I've learned more about the family and about things, and and for me, that translated into um just furthering my trust, my trust issues with the world and um you know things like that. Um and you know, they say those things.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

There is that I mean I can I can totally relate, Maddie. There is that time when you know you look up to your parents as if, well, we say they hung the moon, you know what I mean? They're just everything, you know, and everything comes from them and they're the protectors and the best teachers and all of that sort of thing. And they are wonderful, and I and I firmly believe, you know, everybody out there is doing the best they can with the tools that they have. Some of them don't have the best tools in the world, but they're doing the best they can with whatever those tools are. But when you come into that realization that your parents are human, you know, you get a little bit older and you start to see a little bit of a chink in the armor, and you're like, hmm, they're not handling that the way my other parents are handling that. And you all of a sudden you get to this realization that well, maybe they're not a hundred percent perfect with every decision that they've ever made. And that does that changes the relationship a little bit too. Don't take the love away, but it changes the perspective. You know what I mean? I'm not saying that very well, but I think you get what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02 18:49

Well, I think it has to change the relationship because if you're gonna grow, um, you know, and it sounds harsh to say the word sick, you know, and that's it's just um just an example. But like if you were sick, you wouldn't go if you weren't sick, you wouldn't go around sick people, or if you're trying to get well, you wouldn't stay around sick people, you know, and so I think the relationship has to change on a certain level, and that's where something that saved my life that I wasn't able to do before, or I lost the ability to do, I had felt like, um, but was just setting boundaries and being able to ask for help. And um yeah, just boundaries was is a huge one that has changed my life, and I think that so many people struggle with boundaries, and um and then you couple that with family relationships that are very hard, you know. Um that's yeah, that's been a huge struggle, but I definitely I hold I held my mom specifically on a pedestal, and I remember the moment when I was 21, and I was in a dialectical behavioral therapy session, and something was said and it clicked for just a moment, and that's all it took was you know to change my perception just one degree and see that my mother was a human being before me, and she'd been through a lot of hard stuff, and she always has done the best she could, and I guarantee that she would protect me from anything if given the chance, you know. So I um I have nothing but love for my family, and I mean, and there's been there's been so much trauma, you know, even as an adult, that's been caused by uh my mental illness and addiction. And and I take responsibility for my mental illness and my addiction, you know, um, because if I focus on other people's, I will be crazy all the time, you know, because if I'm waiting for everybody else to get well, I'll never get well. So I focus on mine and I like to talk about my my own. And and that's something that's been like always been a huge sign for me that I want better for myself. Is well, one, I'm constantly surrounded by self-help books, whether it's physical books or listening to YouTube or podcasts or anything else. You know, I'm constantly trying to better myself and and um yeah, so I'll I'll go back just a little bit. I graduated high school just barely with the help of the judicial system because around West Des Moines. Yes, around yes, in West Des Moines around age um 15, 16 is where I kind of just decided that I no longer was gonna participate in my sports, I wasn't gonna listen to my parents, I was gonna hang out with my friends. And that was what was most important to me. Um, you know, in retrospect, I was definitely hunting running and hiding from a lot of feelings and a lot of fear. And uh yeah, so I I decided that the streets were where I wanted to be. And my dad always tells me he used the friend, uh, the word friend very loosely, you know, and and I did for a long time. I thought these people were my friends. Um absolutely were not my friends. Uh, because friends of mine, I was shown and taught growing up. I mean, I had I was lucky to have a few of them. My sister had a core group of you know, five really good friends. My grandma was our Girl Scout leader, and I thought I was a part of their troop. So, you know, these are I had great examples of you know good relationships and good friendships and what they should look like. And then a good relationship, especially good friendship, if you're doing something that's harmful to yourself and that friend doesn't mention it to you, um, I would look at that friendship, you know, then and that's what I'm gonna learn because I want to be surrounded by people that are either working to go where I'm going or they're ahead of me, you know.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

And um, that's not I've always told my kids and my nieces, nephews, and all of that, you're the average of the five closest friends that you have, and so you need to be really, really careful who you surround yourself with.

SPEAKER_02 23:33

Yes, yes. I I always told you.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

You thought you were making a good choice, but you really weren't.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

No, nope, not making a good choice. Um, but these people gave me attention and I found escape through alcohol, through smoking weed. Um, and I I had thought about it as a kid, you know, like my sixth grade dare speech was uh chosen, you know, to because it was heartfelt, you know. I I really sincerely thought I was such a good athlete. I was um I was asked to be on the Olympic development program for the state of Iowa, you know, people try out for that. I was asked to come try out. Um for soccer, for soccer. Soccer was my main thing that I really got into. As a freshman at Valley Southwoods, I played varsity soccer at Valley, and um they had been undefeated for like five years or something crazy. So, you know, there was a lot of pressure there, but it was fun. Um, I got scholarshipped into playing traveling soccer um because of my skill. And uh if I put my mind towards anything, I could get great at it. And then I had that natural athletic ability. Um, and I was a great team player, and I love sports, and I still to this day I still love sports. Um, and it's been kind of a saving grace to not necessarily sports, but just the fact that remembering that in my heart, I'm an athlete. As a child, I was an athlete, and it doesn't matter if I play professional sports or you know, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Well, I'm gonna jump in here again, Maddie. I'm sorry, I'm like I'm like the better interview with people because all I do is interrupt all the time, but I'm fascinated with your story, so I'm interrupting. Yeah, you know, you say that's important to you, that athlete bit, and you talk about that from the time that you were a kid, and the abuse is going on, and you're a good athlete, and you're a dancer, and you're playing tackle football, and you're playing soccer, and you're playing all that, and what you just chronicled there, you know, one of the one of my favorite scripture verses from the Bible is Romans 11 29, and it says, God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. So, what that means is to me, is that everybody was sent here with a purpose, everybody was sent here with remarkable gifts from God, and your gifts and your call are irrevocable. Now that uh that athletic ability, I would say, is not the sum total of everything that Maddie is. But but the fact that he made you into an athlete and gave you excellence in that realm that so many of us just don't enjoy is that stands out, and I think that that's wonderful that you still recognize that. So anyway, yeah, yeah. You went through so you so you go through all of this and you end up on the streets. Was that during high school or was that after?

SPEAKER_02 26:35

Um during high school, and during high school, my mom would call the cops, they'd come looking for me, they'd reel me in. Sometimes I'd be down the street. Uh, one time I was uh almost to Missouri. Um, you know, I just thought I could do whatever I wanted. I thought it didn't matter. Um that's when you know my dad tried to step in at one point, and they were gonna send me to uh Catholic school up in Rochester, Minnesota, and send me to high school there, and he was gonna try and straighten me out. And uh now knowing him, he might have, he might have straightened me out, but you know, I resisted that I fought it and I was manipulative. Um, my mom told me from a young age, you know, you could be a great lawyer, you're gonna do something great, you could do this, you could do that, you know, and then later in life it was, you know, you could have been a good lawyer and now, or you still could be. I guess she still holds that true for me, but she she says, you could have been a good lawyer now, you just need one, and then okay, that's funny. As if, yeah, yeah, as if I don't feel it, but yeah, that's the thing about my mom is she is one of the funniest people I know, um, and just dry, dark, just she's just funny, and um, you gotta catch it, she's quick, but um you know, she can bring light to a situation, and that's where it's like, you know, I I was given all these tools through um, and I'll get to that. Like my it started to manifest as alcoholism. Uh during that time, they were doing everything they could, you know. I was in youthful offenders, I was I had a tracker, I was being sent to therapy, everybody was trying to talk to me. Um, I just I at that point had my mind made up, you know, and I was very closed off. And I think that's what my big thing that um my big moment of courage is um deciding to change. Uh and that is it might sound now wait.

SPEAKER_01 28:51

This is the and you're answering the question now. What's the most courageous thing I've ever done?

SPEAKER_02 28:55

Yes, I'll I'll just I'll I'll nail that and then we can um yeah, I can No, no you won't.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

No, you won't, Madeline. You're gonna stop here for one second before you get the answer to that question. I want you to define courage first because I want to be able to put that in context and then forgive me. We're we'll get right back where you were. So, how do you define courage? What does that mean to you?

SPEAKER_02 29:15

So for me, and um I want this to reach all listeners. Um, I myself uh grew up in a Lutheran church, I go to a Lutheran Church of Hope in West Des Moines every Sunday. Um, I get involved there when I can. And uh, you know, in my house we celebrated Christmas. There was also uh menorah put up because my great-grandfather was Jewish. He lived in the house. Um, you know, we were very always open to religion. I was I chose the path of being as open as I possibly could, you know. So um there were things that I didn't agree with when it came to the regular church or the Lutheran church or just Christianity in general, and maybe things I didn't understand. Um, but I wasn't gonna let that hold me back from what pass what could be. So um, you know, and that's that that comes down to it too. So so courage, courage for me is um, and I just want to preface that because my faith does have something to do with my definition of courage.

SPEAKER_03 30:32

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

Courage, you know, is being strong, doing the things that are gonna make the change, you know, over and over. And it's the little things. Um I believe courage is courage is an act. Um, first of all, you know, uh to be courageous is is an act uh for a reason, um, because you're doing something, and you're doing something, and and usually for me, it looks like doing something over and over and over, waiting for um change, uh, waiting for something to happen. And um, but God has come into that for me, and I can use the word God and associate that in my mind with whoever is running things out there that isn't me, you know. And um I love the charge and I know that it's not me, so that's God exactly, and that's that's kind of where um, but I love the Bible and I love going to church, and um, you know, there's so many lessons held in all of it, but I also love studying Eastern scriptures and and things like that because I believe that there's a little bit of truth in everything, and if I can bring it together and if it works for me, um, you know, it works for me. But I do pray to God, uh, and I do um, you know, that was something that was hard for me, and it was almost like embarrassing to admit that, you know, and that's just crazy.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

So I heard you say, I heard you say, Madeline, this is wonderful. I heard you say courage has strength in it, courage has action in it, courage has persistence in it because you said it was the small things over and over again. Courage has hope in it because you're wanting something to change, you're wanting to affect some kind of change, and courage has faith in it. I heard you talk about those five things. Am I reading that correctly? Yes, yes, I think that's a beautiful I think that's a beautiful definition of courage. Okay, now we can get back into the story after I've so uh so horribly interrupted you. I'm so sorry, Madeline. Okay, so I want to ask the question then, Madeline Dean, and we've got so much more to talk about on the other side of it. But Madeline Dean, what's the most courageous thing you've ever done?

SPEAKER_02 33:10

So the most courageous thing that I've ever done is decide to change, and through you know, that could be very broad, so I'm gonna say just through honesty, um, through being honest with myself, through being honest with the people around me, um, and and completely honest, you know, obviously we all know there's times when certain things don't need to be shared and things like that, but um really focusing on becoming impeccable with my word, um, you know, I think that choosing to do that is so courageous, and it's the first step that holds back so many people from change.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

Um so being impeccable with your word. Talk more about that because I think you said a very powerful thing there. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 34:06

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:07

Well, um impeccable with your word.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

I was given a copy of the four agreements when I was young, and um, ancient Toltec wisdom says, you know, that you should be impeccable with your word, always do your best. Um, that you should oh, of course, they would slip my mind right now. You should always do your best, you should be impeccable with your word, you should not make assumptions, and uh you should not take things personally. So those are four things that I thought, wow, I've read all these self help books, and you know, they're like, and that's that's another part of courage is systems, you know, you have to put systems in place to affect change. And um, this was something that caught my attention because it said right in the first pages, you don't have to wait for change. If you apply these things immediately, you can have change. And I thought, I need that, you know. I'd always been one for instant gratification. So um, you know, and I and I thoroughly understood what they meant, you know. It's like the second I started speaking the truth into wherever I was, I mean, people got uncomfortable, some people um, you know, but eventually it came to people being able to a huge aspect of trust and um a huge aspect of my relationships and my authenticity. And um, you know, I'd always thought that my authenticity was a guiding value, but without that complete truth to others and to myself, um, authenticity is is not real, so no longer authentic. So I that was kind of a wake-up call for me. And um have I been perfect at it since? Yeah, right. I'm human and progress, not perfection. Exactly, exactly. That's something that I was taught and and I hold on to dearly. And and even when you asked me to be on your podcast, I thought, well, you know what? I wish I was in a better place in life right now. I wish I could say, well, I'm doing this, and I've done, you know, just all the things. And then I s and then I thought that that's been part of my issue is um what am I measuring myself by, you know, and that's where God and religion has come into, because I want to measure myself, you know, by something that's not worldly, um because I I can I can reach those worldly goals. Um and and then there's a there's a thing about when you reach a goal too, how you slow down, you know, it's like when you're losing weight and everyone tells you, oh, you look so good, and then you see a cookie and you're like, Oh, I've lost all this weight, and everyone's telling me how good I look. I can just have this cookie, you know. It's it's so easy to slip back in that place when you have made change. So lasting change is um is I guess where uh I want to be courageous and make lasting change in my life, in the life of others. Um, but yeah, I didn't realize I wasn't, I always had strong values, I knew they were instilled in me at a young age, but it wasn't until I spent two years in Mitchellville due to my addiction. Um, you know, it all culminated in me spending two years in Mitchellville, a lot of time in county jails here in California, Arizona. Um were those just using parasites paraphernalia or possessions. I was a scared criminal. I never wanted to commit crimes because my theory was they want us to commit crimes so they can lock us up, and then I will no longer be uh have access to the only thing that I thought was keeping me alive or was helping, you know, which um eventually at 16 turned a heroine, you know, and uh you wouldn't think a 16-year-old in West Des Moines would run into a lot of heroin, but unfortunately I did, and um I convinced them that if they didn't give it to me, I'd go somewhere else. And reluctantly they did. Um, they're much older than me and uh definitely knew better. And and I say that a lot, you know, 15-year-olds don't make good decisions, and that was a life decision that I made. Um, and it and it was due to not being honest. If I if I'm you know, if I trace it back, I didn't want to tell people how I was feeling, I didn't want to talk about what I was going through, so I was drinking, and then everyone was mad at me for drinking, I was getting in trouble, it was becoming a problem, and I knew that I could get away with doing drugs, it was a little bit more concealable. Um, and that was my honest to God thought process. And also following that was so I can be the best daughter, so that I can show up as the best sister. You know, it was never um, I mean, of course it was selfish first, but then it was always um I was always thinking of others to a fault, um, and especially my family. Um, but me and my sister have a very unique bond. Uh we're just very connected, and so yeah, it was hard putting her through the trauma of my um my addiction, everything like that.

SPEAKER_01 40:04

Madeline, let me pull you back to what first of all, let me zip in interject with a question for you. Are you familiar with compound interest?

SPEAKER_03 40:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 40:14

You know, okay, so you invest a little bit and the interest adds to it, and then you keep investing, and then over time the interest not only compounds with the principal, but it compounds with the interest as well, and things really escalate, so it just goes to the moon quickly. So things happen slowly, and then at the end they happen really fast. And that happens with I've heard it said that that happens with good decisions and with bad decisions. So that's why we've got to be careful of the decisions we make. Because I make I I I join you with the recovery thing. I I wasn't able to spend two years in Mitchellville, but I'm like a recovery person with drugs and alcohol. But and all of that happened very slowly in the beginning, and then all of a sudden it happened really fast. And did you feel the same thing when you were out on the out on the streets that this was kind of going and then one bad decision and one misdemeanor, and then more lies and more things I don't want to talk about, and I'm dealing with this now with drugs to deal with not only the baggage that I'm carrying, but the convictions that I've just had and the time away from my folks, and I'm disappointing everybody, and then it just goes to the moon. It does that relate?

SPEAKER_02 41:25

Precisely, precisely, and that was my cycle for a long time.

SPEAKER_01 41:29

What bought your ticket into Mitchellville?

SPEAKER_02 41:32

Before incarceration, it was treatment centers, the same thing, and the guilt and the shame and the missing out and all that. Um, but yeah, yeah, yeah. So Mitchellville, I ended up in Mitchellville because of a burglary charge. Um and my mom had and stuff that had become almost you know acquaintances with the county attorney at this point, and they decided that nothing was gonna stop me except for a 90-day shock in prison. And that's what she told my mom, but that's not exactly what happened. Um, they no longer do those. So I spent one year my first time, and since I had a victim uh on my crime, since it was a burglary, uh, I went in front of the parole board, I spoke with them, and I was released in about like a year and a few months it took to get released. Then I was only out for a few months, and I returned back. Um and I look at that, and you know, I used to feel a lot of shame about that. So I I pretty much spent and then I spent one other entire year there after I went back, um, and about seven months in County prior. So there's some years I've spent behind bars. Um, you know, if we just want to round down, I would say I've spent five years incarcerated all around. Um, I've spent uh at least a year of that in solitary confinement, which has been uh a huge part of my journey with God too.

SPEAKER_01 43:18

Um why solitary?

SPEAKER_02 43:21

So um even in there, I was I'm probing Madeline, and you're um under no obligation to answer any of these questions. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I was coping in there the best way I knew how. I was scared. Um, I wanted to seem tough. I wanted to seem like I knew what I was doing and that I was in charge. And um, you know, as with everywhere in life, people gravitated towards me. And instead of using that for good at all times, I sometimes used it for bad, you know, and there was a lot of drug use that went on in Especially in the jail, not as much in the prison, but even there I found it and found myself in the hole due to using drugs. Um, because it's there. Um and there's not signs, you know, saying, here, there's help this way, and if you want to better yourself while you're here, do this or anything like that. You know, you're pretty much shuffled through. Um, and so luckily I sought out some stuff while I was there because there is um, I don't want to say that the whole criminal system is is wrong because there's so many people that work day in and day out to make it work and um put their lives on the line and also just like make such a difference um by showing compassion and things like that, um, because the amount of people that we have incarcerated is astronomical in this country. Um yes, yes, and uh and it's right up there with the mental health, and and what I learned from being in Mitchellville for two years is that we are housing our mental health patients there, um, you know, and there's not any extra care for them either. Um there. So, and it's uh yeah, so that's something I I I saw I had insight now into some of the cracks in the system that I grew up believing in. Um and justice has always been a strong value of mine. I think it's just hardwired because I've tried to break it and uh it just doesn't always like I I have a natural, um, inborn, you know, desire to see things right and wrong, you know. I know right and I know wrong. And um I don't like to sit back and watch things happen when they're wrong, but there I was in a position where my voice had been taken away, my credibility be had been taken away. Um, you know, so I did what I could while I was there. Um, but I do know my a mission in life of mine is to bring awareness to uh the judicial system, um and and find some, you know, because I I think that many people aren't aware of what exactly is going on and how many people are actually being incarcerated and for how long, and for and a lot of people are confused on the things that they offer there too. You know, I took college courses while I was there through DMAC and through Grinnell, but both of those were through scholarships, through donations, and um, you know, I was told don't even put an application, they only pick lifers, they don't, if you're a short-term person, they're not gonna choose you for a scholarship, but I put an application anyways, and I got accepted. Um, so I started taking DMAC classes. Then there was an opportunity to take classes through Grinnell, and I thought, wow, like Grinnell, Grinnell College, and um I did the essay, I did the second essay, I passed. Out of 800 girls, I was like one of 14 that got chosen, and we got very lucky. Both classes that I took, we had uh professors that were traveling uh doing their summer at Brunelle. So I got a professor from Canada and took a jazz appreciation class, and then the second class that I got to start but paroled during the middle of was uh by a professor who had been featured on 60 Minutes, like three or four times for his own nonprofit work, and he was teaching criminal uh criminal justice, and he's like first day, he's like the reading list I'm gonna let you know right now is just a book of my or is just a list of my favorite books, just a list of my favorite books, and I said, cool, you know, and uh I had read some of them and hadn't read a few of them. Uh luckily, thank God I got my parole during that time, but they were gracious enough to transfer my classes out into the real world with me that I could remotely finish them um with them. So, you know, it was amazing. That's the people in the that are working day in and day out to make a change that um yeah, they that definitely need to be recognized because those are people you look up to.

SPEAKER_01 48:59

Let me let me let me let me ask you a question here, Madeline. So your definition of or your answer to the question, what's the most courageous thing you ever done, was to decide to make a change in your life, which excuse me, given your story makes perfect sense. Given anybody's story would make perfect sense. Can you put that to a date and a time, or did that start when you got out of Mitchellville and you had some starts and stops and you've been continually doing that? Or do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 49:36

Yeah, yeah, no, totally. So um when I got out of Mitchellville, I decided that I would never go back to prison again. Um, and that's how strong our minds are, and and uh like so yeah, so I decided then and there that I wasn't gonna go back to Mitchellville, and I decided that whatever it took, you know. So I that was being honest with my parole officer from the beginning. Uh, I used to go in there thinking that it was an interview and that I had to be on my best behavior and be my perfect self and everything else. Um, and I was scared of them. I went in there with a different attitude. I told her a little bit about my story, I told her a little bit about my truth, I gave her some of my tells, you know, and these things are coming out of my mouth, and I'm thinking, why are you telling on yourself? You know, but I did the best thing that I could have done because she walked with me for the next eight years to make sure that I, you know, made it to the end successfully. Um, there was times when, you know, I could have been switched parole officers and she, you know, made sure that she stuck with me because I was honest. And I realized just in that one relationship, how big of a difference it made. Um even just in our interactions, they become they became easier. Um, I felt at ease. Um yeah, it was an immediate change. Uh with other people, being impeccable with your word can um, and if you haven't been for a long time, or if you've done stuff that people can hold against you, uh, you know, being impeccable with my word wasn't always easy at first, and it wasn't always taken correctly. Um, even though I I always worked on the delivery, and I was never, you know, I try not to be brash or anything like that. But, you know, people don't always like to hear the truth, and sometimes it takes, you know, a moment to digest it and be able to come back to it. And so um, you know, even sharing my own truths, I had to realize that was hard for other people, even if they were my truths, and I thought, oh, I'm doing the hard work here. I had to be considerate also of you know, the people around me and just and just know my audience, you know, know that I needed to talk to a therapist. And um, I got involved in you know, 12 steps and got a sponsor, and um I asked people to look for me, you know, because I really realized the strength in mentorship, and I would attribute that to my grandfather just always telling me that if you need something, ask. The worst answer you're gonna get is no. And I knew that I needed something, and I knew that I didn't want to be like the people I had been around, I didn't want to be like the people I was in treatment, no offense, you know. And I I just I wanted to um I was like those people, you know, and I am, I still am. We're all like we are the same, but I wanted to I wanted to change my surroundings, I should say better. Um, I really wanted to change my surroundings, and I felt that when I was at church, um and yeah, so I found different ways to try to um implement being honest and changing in small ways. Have I been perfect at it? Absolutely not. Have I run into a lot of um things that you know I could point fingers and blame and and do things like that? Sure. But um, you know, the reality of it is when I look at my part in the situation, I was out of alignment with God. Um and I was still trying to run the show, I would surrender and I would, you know, be doing what I need to do, but still trying to control things. And um I think that's been where I mean, like I said earlier, alcoholism was a symptom, you know, and these are symptoms because now I get to look inside and and realize that there's something wrong, um, and I want to look inside and figure out what exactly it is, you know, and I think that my main thing that I wanted was I want to be spiritually okay, I want to be mentally okay, and I want to be physically okay. I had gotten sober, and for the last five years, I've or the last six years, I've stayed sober um all but three times and three times that I relapsed, I relapsed and used once and didn't use again. And um, you know, that was a clear indicator to me that that was no longer gonna work for me. That was no longer gonna cut it. So um, you know, my mom always said relapse is a part of recovery, and I just thought it was another dumb slogan to make me feel better or something. But it hit me, you know, and I realized without those moments, I could have been sitting here for the next 10, 20 years fantasizing about, oh, maybe one day or um, you know, this or that. So, you know, I think that yeah, God interjects in in moments, and and that's undeniable, you know. People who don't believe in God uh something interjects, you know.

SPEAKER_01 55:42

There's something uh I I I I get it, Madeline, and I like the and I like the way you defined that in the beginning. I wasn't quite sure what how that applied, but what you're talking about is you're making a decision to change your life while you're still incarcerated. You get out of Mitchellville, and you're not a hundred percent fixed, but you're definitely like this is a mindset. So you defined courage as it takes strength. You talked about courage as an action. It's something that you do. So it's not just you thinking about living a better life and saying no to drugs and alcohol and getting help with mental illness or anything like that. It's actively pursuing those things. You know, you're talking about your grandpa and finding a mentor and people that get, you know, your parole officer. I mean, all of that fits and it makes sense. You talked about courage, having persistence in it, where you don't quit, even though you might have a step back and that sort of thing, having hope in it that you're being drawn towards something, and that last, that fifth element of faith. I mean, yeah. And you just said it just you said, I think the thing that was missing was I wasn't leaning on God, I wasn't trusting in God the way that I should. And so I get it. This is a this is really curious to me because a lot of time, what's the most courageous thing I've done? It's this, and it happened on this day, and this was the thing I did, not some people have answered it in a in a contextual way that it happened over a period of time. But yours is even more that. It's like it's a mindset, like courage for you is a mindset, and I'm no longer staying where I'm at, you know, and I'm growing and I'm and it's progress, not perfection. Not to give not to give yourself license to go back out with bad behavior, because we know where that compound interest gets you, you know, it's bad again in a hurry.

SPEAKER_02 57:37

But but I I think you have a therapy practice on the side, Jeff.

SPEAKER_01 57:42

Do I? No, you're gonna I mean you're very well.

SPEAKER_02 57:48

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 57:49

Well, you're giving me a lot of insight here, Madeline. Yeah. So now I'm curious though.

SPEAKER_02 57:54

So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 57:55

I'm curious. How do you how how does that get you to the the program change course? Because that's how I know you. That's where I was inspired by you when you got up and gave a graduation address. So how old were you when you got out of Mitchellville?

SPEAKER_02 58:13

So I was it was during COVID that I was in Mitchellville. Um, and I want to say I got out around 23. Um, so that would have been 13 years and 23. Yeah, I got out around 23. So about three years ago. Um, or no, no, no, no. It was long, it was before that. I got out um 21, sorry, 21. So it's been about, yeah, five years.

SPEAKER_01 58:43

Okay, so and you and you joined Change Course a year ago?

SPEAKER_02 58:48

I joined change course. I started the process in December, and I was uh in the theta class that started January 5th, and it was six months till uh June 5th, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:03

Okay, so talk to our listeners about how you got into change course, because I think that's very that'll be insightful as well.

SPEAKER_02 59:09

Yeah, yeah. So like like I've mentioned, you know, and I could go all over the place, so I I appreciate you reeling it in. But you know, I've mentioned, you know, mental health was a big part. Um, and and then my addiction was a huge symptom for me too, like a big flashing light. Hey, look over here, you have some emotional issues going on, they're not being addressed, let's handle them. And um, through therapy and through other recovering alcoholics, um, you know, I've made so much progress. Um I was clean for two and a half years, and I was around somebody that I knew from a 12-step group. Um, and I was struggling, and uh I decided that I was gonna relapse. Um, I relapsed and immediately went to jail, and my mom always says, somebody's looking out for you, and I'm like, I can't get away with anything, you know. But you know, it's in in retrospect, I'm like, thank God, because I've been in there with women who are facing, you know, spending the rest of their life because they were passengers in a car driving home from a bar, you know, and kill people. Like there, it could have been anything. So, you know, I thank God for my time. Um, and then I really took advantage of it too. Um, but you know, while I was there, I did a licensed apprenticeship. I went to college, I trained dogs for the ARL. Um I voluntarily did therapy because we had a psychologist on staff that nobody was utilizing, you know. So um I did all of those things while I was there. So I made some progress. When I got out, I leaned on um medically assisted treatment. That's something that I speak out about because it's very taboo. Um, but if you are needed in need of medically assisted treatment or you are uh taking medically assisted treatment, it's not just medicine, it involves all kinds of therapies and other things too. So um yeah, I mean, that's something that I because I was involved in that, I felt um I I got in my own head about being not being a part of recovery because of things like that. So that's something huge that I talk out about, you know. If you need medication, just like a diabetic, you know, we take our medication, and um so yeah, but uh getting back to the question, you know, yeah, uh you you said it, but I had made my mind up in Mitchellville, um, and you could see through my actions, I started being courageous there, honestly, because um I was disliked for a while, and it's a small little community uh five to eight hundred women, and um I was disliked because I was getting up at five in the morning to work out, I was going to college, I was training dogs, and I was doing well. People didn't like that at first, um, but slowly people did start to gravitate towards me and know that they could come to me if they wanted to change, and I became a mentor of sorts in there, and so I I did realize the um the power of mentorship and that it doesn't matter where you are um exactly. Like I mentioned earlier, like I wanted to be in the perfect place to get on this podcast, and I've done that for years with with old friends, you know. Oh, once I get my life perfect, I'll reach back out to them. But all they want is their friend, you know, and so that's where you have to be courageous and show up authentically everywhere you are, you know, at all times. And um yeah, I've I've definitely slipped and I've definitely not been um perfect. But what it comes down to to me is it's it's a mindset, like you said, it's my thoughts, um, my feelings are valid, my emotions are not always, you know, and if I can wait a moment and not react strictly on emotion and and bring some logic in, suddenly I become much more wise, you know. And um it's it's been slowing down for me, which a kid with ADH, H, capital H D, you know, um that was that was me was the hyperactive bouncing off the walls, you know. Um, but I it's definitely been a struggle, um, changing my own mindset. But our brains are amazing, and neuroplasticity is real, and um, that's how you know we all the bad habits I trained. If I could train myself to be sick, I can train myself to be well, you know, and um so I did realize at that point it was a choice, and that meant letting go of any excuses, any blame, um, any and all excuses actually, because if I decided one excuse would be good enough, then all excuses were good enough, you know. So there was times that you know that meant doing stuff when I didn't want to. That meant doing stuff when I thought, are people gonna wonder why she would be doing that when something much more important is going on, you know? Um, like I mentioned, like exercise and being an athlete has been my outlet. Um, I've learned so much about trauma and the body and energy and how much we store in our body. So if I need to uh exercise, you know, prior to something important, or if I need to um, you know, take those steps, like I've I've learned myself, um, and like I think it's so silly, they they've talked about meditation for so long. I don't remember a time in my life I didn't hear about meditation. And then the second thing that I heard the most about meditation is I can't meditate, I suck at meditation, you know, that's people's common response. And my uh big theory on that is that um it is a life hack for so many reasons, but especially for you know, us Christians, and um is you know, you can pray and pray and pray, but how often do you stop and listen and silence for God's answer, you know, or for God's guidance. Um and I've always, you know, that was part of me. Thank you. That was part of me being honest, which was what was my voice and which was the which was the sound voice in the voice of somebody who loves me and it would protect me.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:23

And so that meant I'm just thinking the person that I interviewed, the person that I interviewed before um you, the podcast that was up the week before this one airs, is uh Dr. Donald S. Whitney, who wrote a book on spiritual disciplines and all kinds, you know, Bible reading and prayer and meditation and journaling and fasting and all of that kind of stuff. And I asked him uh what he was working on and his next book is about meditation and how important and how critical that is. Just exactly what you people can listen to that podcast, but it's exactly what you're talking about, Madeline. You and Dr. Whitney are speaking the same language. It's so important to listen to God.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:07

Yeah and I think it's something that's very hard for a lot of us. Yep. Like I had mentioned I I spent over a year in solitary confinement by myself and you know thankfully to my family um phone calls to them every once in a while and books is what got me through that and then um God and my relationship with God. And when I went into that I was you know using drugs I was acting out I was um acting out of character I was not following my values and then I was put in this room by myself and it's amazing how quickly you can um your mind becomes sober you know and you realize that I had never woke up and prayed in the morning. I was taught you know now lay me down to sleep for a little over my soul to keep that's what I was taught as a kid. I wasn't taught to pray in the morning later in life I was told to pray whenever you need to you know but um the first thing I did when I woke up in that room to not panic out of pure anxiety and phosphorphia was started praying getting on my knees and praying and like this prayer just came to me and it was God please help me to be curious today. And uh and that's all that's all I ask for um I just want to be curious and open to whatever information uh I come across and uh and I just kept praying that every day and like I don't know where that prayer came from. And later I realized how profound it was you know because still today I pray for that because if I don't go into a day um curious minded uh if I go into it having it all figured out and closed off my day it's two different tracks you know um and yes being confident and being sure of yourself and knowing what you're doing are important things but also a balance of being open to the world around you and that you might not know everything and everything that you learned might not be correct. You know that's where change was really really hard for me. You know the they talk about it you know give me a boy for seven years and I'll give you the man I I think some of it really is super ingrained um but with work I've I've worked through it I've worked through some I've worked through that trauma. I can openly talk about it and I can tell other people like it does it is okay you know and it felt icky of course it felt icky and and it even felt icky to share it on here but I knew immediately after that I was safe and that you know that I was forgiven and that anybody who's offended um you know they'll also be forgiven you know and and eventually it might touch them but you know I I talk about it because that's what I think the generational trauma that was passed down was nothing out of harm but was just protection protect the kids protect the family protect everybody nothing bad's happening it's all okay and living in a world like that um when somebody's taking care of it is great but then once you hit adulthood or you know anything like that um where you just have the ability to make your own decisions or think you do then it can get squirrely pretty fast.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:47

Madeline where I you've been very transparent with this whole talk and I I could just go on forever and I do hope to have you back but I probably need to bring this to a close at some point I this is I got a couple more qu two more questions and then I'm gonna let you go. Is that okay? Yes of course yeah so so we've talked about this continuum given your definition of courage you know that it's a that it's a mindset and deciding to change that's the most courageous thing and in a lot of ways I feel like you're just I don't even know if you're at the middle of that or if you're at the beginning of that but it's it's a continuum for you. And it started you know with the incarceration thing and getting out and making a decision and like you've said you know you've had some bumps and some starts and some whatever but you're not stopping you know and you're continuing to to embrace that and you're continuing to do that. So I want to ask you a really bold question. Why did God put you here? What's in store for you for the next 10 years what's what's God put on your heart that you need to be doing because I I it's going somewhere for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:13

Yeah every day as I build my self-esteem and my self-worth back up by every little um compound interest you know every little action um I I feel um more self-motivated to accomplish uh what God has put on my heart and um I've always been motivated by others but God has always put on my heart that you need to tell your story you need to especially talk to young people because I knew exactly what it was like to be young and I mean everyone does but um you know they say that your emotional uh you know your emotional um well being can be stunted by addiction and things like that and and I've had to work at that but I I can still relate um I believe you know I still know what it felt like in those moments those decisions that I was making um they didn't feel like lifelong ones but they were um and then you know I would have my God wants me I believe to just be honest and to ask questions like um for one at change course they offered a free spiritual development and I was allowed to sit in there and say hey you guys I love the Bible I love coming to church I love everything that they talk about but I get a little bit confused when they start talking about resurrection and dying on the cross and things like that you know and I got to be honest about those things and um that was scary but you know it was a growth moment and um I got to realize you know that it's okay to believe what I believe and take parts of and pieces from all kinds of things and um you know mostly I lean on God and on the Bible um and Zen Buddhism those are my those are my two main uh my mainstays and um I know that God has put on my heart to speak truth to speak truth into the world about what is going on um with mental health and how we're handling it um what is going on with uh children and medication what is going on with um addiction and then and that leading to incarceration and then specifically what's going on after incarceration which is where we met which is something that you are personally working on which um you know you had my heart from the beginning because that has been a that's what God put on my heart you know is to uh is to not leave these people behind it's almost like survivor's guilt you know I had a roommate in there for a year who um will die in there you know and uh and had one person left her grandmother um but I personally chased down the ward and and asked if I could have correspondence because felons can't talk to felons you know and so we've maintained correspondence um because you know once her grandmother dies who does she have you know things like that so I had some survivor's guilt um but I thought like let's channel that because guilt and shame has been my demise for so long let's channel that and um I don't know exactly how it looks but I do know that I have a lot of great people you know that have access to a lot of great things um I had a great counselor who now um works at the you know Iowa Department of Mental Health uh awareness mental health I'm gonna say it wrong so I'm not gonna say it but you know she's working personally on that mission you know um and uh and of course I love to talk about addiction and and things like that but it is so taboo and it is something that I do want to leave in my past so um I like to uh look look at it more deeply like yes there was an addiction but let's look at what the actual problem was um and you know like I'd mentioned earlier my biggest thing is um I think God wants me to be spiritually well um emotionally well and physically well so that way I can carry a message and um usually God puts a message on my heart um but I also am open I I can read one scripture and then go follow it up in um and see what you know they say in Hinduism see what they say you know because perspective has been what has also been the outcome of this courage I've gained perspective and it hasn't been you know a giant leap to the other side to see things greatly it's been one percent one little inch at a time and um so I went through change course I got my uh diploma uh through Penn Foster Academy for medical billing and coding right now I'm studying to take the national exam which I will be taking here in the next month um and then I'm applying for jobs and so yeah like I said at the beginning I wanted to be in a perfect place to say yes I'm successful I'm a success story this is going great but you know what I am a success story no matter where I am you know and I had to tell somebody that yesterday you know like it doesn't matter if you have 20 years of sobriety or um you know 20 days of sobriety sometimes the person with 20 days can say the right thing you know so I just think um time time does matter and it and it counts for something especially with sobriety um but I just it's like it's that even translates into what I'm talking about you know but yeah and I'm gonna interrupt you again Madeline because that's you've said another profound thing I was um I was in a recovery meeting a while ago and there was somebody in there that had 20 days let's say I forget what the actual number was and he said that he was thinking that he had nothing to offer because somebody else was just brand new and come in and they were asking him for help and he said I thought what do I have to offer and that guy's sponsor said to him you know how to stay clean and sober for 20 days.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:22

You are perfectly equipped with that. So you can tell this guy all day long how do you stay sober for 20 days because you've just done it. And and Madeline if you'll allow me the thing that I think is really impressive about your story is because you've defined it the way that you have the most courageous thing you've ever done we are taking a snapshot of you while you are in the middle of it or at the beginning of it or somewhere along the continuum. And so I think everybody that's listening here says that lady has a lot to tell me about what it is to be courageous in real time. And so I I I can't thank you enough for how transparent you are. The last question I'm gonna ask you okay it's gonna sound funny is I see you got some tattoos. And I'm always impressed with people that have tattoos because I'm I'm I'm so tender this sweetish skin I don't have one single tattoo. I'm gonna get a tattoo here's the tattoo I'm gonna get I'm gonna get one in the center of my chest at some point and it's gonna be a QR code so that the EMTs can scan it and the QR code's gonna say keep comfortable do not resuscitate I would I think that would be a funny that'd be actually thank you for thank you for taking care of me something like that. But anyway the the I always think they're so hard but I'm curious what's what's your what's your favorite tattoo what's don't tell me all of them just tell me what the most fate your favorite one is.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:07

I get the most compliments on this one which was just a drawing my friend Sam did and he did it in his kitchen and it's um it's the sun and the moon okay I get the most compliments on that one but I just got a new one on my leg two days ago so now this one's my favorite you guys can't you guys listening can't see this but I'm getting a view of these beautiful tattoos okay yeah so I'm getting a pot a terracotta pot but it has a design painted on it and then it's full of um foliage and um foliage and and being grounded and being uh that's something that's huge for me Jean I talk about meditation prayer grounding to the earth um you know if you don't garden or anything like that getting outside and getting barefoot and getting connected to the earth is worth so much I can I just have to throw that in there because you might think I'm nuts but if you try it it's life changing and um I know I know for me grass as they say it's grass. Yes yes God's important um but I've learned a lot from a lot of different um spiritual practices metaphysical practices things like that and um you know I take what I I take what works for me um so I don't want anybody hearing this to think that I don't believe in God or that I um you know that I only believe in God. I I believe in a God that is uh that we're all talking about the same thing. That's what I really believe. I I really hope that we're all talking about the same thing and we're all just trying to explain it the best we can. And um yeah that's something I had to let go of is I might not be able to explain it but I'm gonna have to form a relationship with it.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:02

So um forming that relationship has been why I am I would like to say a little bit past the beginning more towards um I would say getting towards the middle uh just because the like the changes might not be on the outside but a lot of them have been in here so only I can honestly say that and and I hope through my honesty and authenticity that's something that you're like oh I think she would take a uh you know accurate account and share that with me you know um but I I you know I'm I definitely am guided by my values and uh my values are in alignment with uh with Jesus so I can't deny that you know yeah well when I when I asked you to be on this podcast I've been chasing you down since I saw you at the graduation and I got a chance to talk to you I told you one of my favorite quotes and people that are listening have heard me say share this before one of my favorite quotes is by Leonard Ravenhill and he said people that have an experience with God are never at the mercy of somebody with an argument. And I told you the thing the thing about it is when you see Jesus on somebody when you see somebody that's been pulled out of the fire when you see somebody that said yes to him and is being obedient and is living a new life and breathing new oxygen you can't hide it. The whole world can see it and it doesn't even matter what you say you could read the phone book and people are going to be able to pick up on that and I don't want to slobber on you too much Madeline but I'm going to I guess because you got it on you and it's and it's wonderful to see and what it is is it's a huge encouragement. Not only that but what you've shared about the topic of courage um is bold and very powerful. You've got a testimony and you're shepherding it very well and I'm just gonna be out here praying for you. So Madeline Dean woman of tremendous courage thank you so much for sharing with us today.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:10

Yeah of course thank you so much for having me and um I hope every day that I get you know one percent better and that I remember to trust in God and when I forget I remind myself you know because it's okay to jump back in at any moment. So um I hope everyone has a wonderful day that listen to this and um yeah and thank you so much for even inviting me and um letting me push past that fear of it there's gonna be no perfect time. The perfect time is now and we had a wonderful conversation and I appreciate you very much.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:45

Yes we did thank you. Hey everybody this is Jeff popping back in again that was Madeline Dean with the primary interview and her answer to the courageous questions. You know sometimes after people do the podcast they think maybe I could have said something else or there was something else that I wanted to add. I got a message from Madeline the day after I interviewed her and she said Jeff I think I might have left something out or I wanted to clarify some things and she asked if she could send in an additional recording and if I could add it to the end of the interview and I was happy to oblige and the in a lot of regards the next eight minutes that you're gonna hear could probably eclipse everything that we talked about in the interview. It's so poignant and so beautiful that you're really gonna enjoy the the end of this interview and what Madeline had to say. But I guess I don't know if I even want to comment but I will I we're taking a look at people everybody that's interviewed here on the podcast in real time. So when we ask the question about courage we understand that the story is not over yet and there's a lot more going on than we can ever hope to capture in just one quick little podcast. And so I definitely mean to honor everybody that we interview here and especially in this case Miss Madeline with something that she might want to add because she thinks that it is going to help clarify and add more value and recognizing that um you know she's processing her walk in real time as well. So um I'm so happy that she sent this in and I'm so glad that we're able to include it in the podcast. So let me hush up here and this is what Madeline had to send to me to wrap up the podcast and she did just a brilliant job. Thanks everybody for listening.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:53

I just want to be very clear that I had a great childhood and I was so fortunate It and then through my drug use, I pushed my family away, and they were at a point where they didn't know what else to do. Um, they've tried everything, they've been there for everything, but it wasn't until I was ready to get clean that I got clean, and that was after four years living on the streets, bouncing around the West Coast, um, not speaking to my family for months at a time, and I can't imagine what that put my mother through. But she stuck by me through all of it, and then after that, I did a lot of incarceration in prison, and that's been a process through different halfway houses, different treatment centers, and my family has showed up for me every time when I had nothing, no clothes to wear. They bought me clothes, they showed up for my graduation ceremonies, anything that they could do to be supportive, they've done. Um, so I just wanted that to be super clear. But the main reason that I have a change in my life today, and I have the courage to change, is because I have a God that I believe in, and that God is not a God that I feel like I need to explain. And I always used to feel like I needed to explain my God, or at least be able to identify it to myself, but I realized how detrimental that thought pattern was, and that's been something courageous I've changed is just realizing that there is a God out there, and because I can't identify it or explain it to you with assurance, it doesn't mean that I'm running the show, and as soon as I set down the reins, my life always becomes better. Like we've talked about 12-step programs and trying to run the show and always creating more chaos than good, and that was me through my addiction. I mentioned before that I used so that I could be the best sister, so that I could be the best daughter. That's how skewed my thinking was at that time. But also I do want to recognize psychiatrists who are willing to treat formerly drug-addicted patients and not treat them with a bias, because that has been a huge game changer in my life is getting a psychiatrist who actually knows me, understands me, and I'm free to talk with about my day-to-day and also my feelings, my emotions, the way my medications affect me. Whereas before, I was treated badly from the beginning. The second I walked into a doctor anywhere in the Des Moines metro area, they had records of overdoses and immediately start asking me questions about my addiction, which after five years of mostly being in remission from opioid addiction, I believe that it was unfair to be treated like that. So finding the right psychiatrist has made a world of difference. Getting on the right medications has made a world of difference. And believing in God has made all the difference. First, in my relationship with myself, because by following God's path instead of Madeline's idea of what today needs to look like, I start to like who I am through small actions, and that's courage, is in those moments when I can't see God, I have to feel God and know that I'm being guided and protected. And what I like to remind myself of is that I'm 31 years old and I've been through stuff most people wouldn't make it through more times than I can count. And that's only to say that I'm clearly being protected. There's clearly somebody or something looking out for me. There's clearly a larger picture here for me. And my family walking through me through my my family walking through my addiction with me, the best way I can imagine paying them back for that would be to show them a good life, to show them that I can be successful, self-sufficient, and happy, and they no longer have to worry. So I'm going to use my new degree to get a position in my field of medical billing and coding. I plan to eventually work remote as I would love to start my own business as well. And these are realistic goals for me today. And there's a few reasons for that I've mentioned, but another huge one is because of the people that I'm around. Thanks to the program that I went through introducing me to you, all the kind words of encouragement that you've given me and the introduction alone is enough to change the course of my life. So you really are truly a part of an amazing nonprofit, and it shows a lot about your character, Jeff. I truly appreciate the time being interviewed today, and I hope that I've said something that can sit well with people of all backgrounds in all walks of life. You don't need to be drug addicted or have been incarcerated. You don't need to relate in those specific ways, but zoom out a little bit and imagine the feeling of wanting to do the best that you can do every day and not measuring up or feeling like you weren't, making the wrong decisions, knowing you're making the wrong decisions. It's no different than if I decide that I'm not gonna eat junk food tomorrow, and I do it anyways. I go to bed feeling bad about myself, and that's what this is all about having the courage to make those tough decisions that in the moment are very hard. When you make them, you show courage, you model it to yourself and to others, and that teaches you who you are.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:58

And I am Madeline and I am Courageous. Thank you for joining us today on Courageous. If you'd like to hear more about the work and ministry being done at Crossroads Apologetics, please visit our home on the web at crossroadsapologetics.org. Would you or someone you know like to be featured on Courageous? Send us an email at info at crossroadsapologetics.com or info at crossroadsapologetics.org telling us about the most courageous thing you've ever done.