Cut the Rope: Patrick Sells on Courage, Faith, and Starting Over

In this compelling episode of Courageous Crossroads, Jeff sits down with entrepreneur and business leader Patrick Sells for a deeply personal conversation about courage, resilience, faith, success, failure, and what it means to “cut the rope” when God may be calling you toward something more. Patrick, a 35-year-old entrepreneur and intrapreneur living in Dallas, began his career by launching a digital marketing agency before entering the banking and fintech world, where he helped transform a community bank, pioneered an early Bitcoin-related banking product, earned recognition as Digital Banker of the Year, and later helped build a multibillion-dollar business. Yet Patrick’s most courageous decision came at the height of his professional and financial success, when he chose to walk away after realizing that money, power, and achievement were beginning to consume too 
much of his heart and identity. What followed was anything but an easy landing: the sudden death of his best friend, tremendous financial pressure, business struggles, addiction, rehab, and a season in which nearly everything he believed about his own resilience was tested. Now sober and rebuilding, Patrick shares with remarkable vulnerability why courage is not about knowing everything will work out, but about acting on conviction despite fear, uncertainty, and the consequences that may follow. His story is an inspiring reminder that sometimes courage means cutting the rope, trusting God, getting knocked
down, and still believing that redemption—and the strength to rise again—are possible.

Thank you for listening! We hope you feel inspired and encouraged by our conversation today. If you did, be sure to share this episode with others.

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See you in the next episode! Be blessed!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics. A look into what motivates us to step out in courage and the everyday bravery of men and women like you. In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this question: What's the most courageous thing you've ever done? And now your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Hey everybody, this is Jeff. Welcome back to another edition of the Courageous Crossroads Podcast where we ask that question, What's the most courageous thing you've ever done? And my next guest, Patrick Sells, is a friend of mine. I haven't seen him in quite a while. But uh, we got to catch up. You're gonna hear a little bit of that, you're gonna hear a whole lot about his backstory, and you're gonna hear a man who's not necessarily at the end of the race, but in a lot of ways at the beginning, or maybe in the middle, I don't know, how he answers that question. What's the most courageous thing you've ever done? You're gonna be inspired with Patrick's authenticity and inspired with how he answers that question. So without further ado, here's Patrick. Well, thanks, Patrick, for being with us today.

SPEAKER_03 1:25

Um, it's great to see you again. Same Jeff, thanks for having me on and been looking forward to our conversation as well as catching up with you.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

That's great. Well, for the benefit of our listeners, Patrick is a friend of mine, but he and I don't run in the same circles. He's hither and yawn across the country, and I'm in the other direction sometimes. So our paths haven't crossed in what did we say, six or seven years? Probably at least, uh maybe closer to nine or ten, but it so it's been a few years. Yeah. Well, I had such a strong impression when I met you the first time, and um you are an impressive guy, and so I'm tickled that you came on the program today, and we can talk about courage and learn a little bit more about you. Thanks, Jeff.

SPEAKER_03 2:08

And uh it's been fun uh when you asked me to do this and been listening to some of the episodes you have done and all the great conversations that have been had, and uh it's an honor to be able to participate today.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Oh, that's great. I'm always curious when I because courage is, you know, and that's a big topic. And I just think it's a really everybody's got that. Everybody's got something to say when I ask them the question, what's the most courageous thing you've ever done? But what's your initial reaction to that when you get invited to a podcast like this? Are you like, man, I haven't done nothing? By or is it like, no, I've got one that really comes to mind right away, or what's your reaction to it?

SPEAKER_03 2:45

You know, Jeff, uh in truth, I I ended up uh calling my mother probably. Uh moms are good for something all of life, right? And uh I love my mom and called her because in ways, you know, I think there's uh probably more courageous moments than I should be proud of. Some of those kind of self-induced, if you will, and other times I think just the way God made me. And so, you know, I think whenever we have qualifiers like the most in something, it it can kind of freeze you up. And so uh called her to talk through, you know, some of those moments to try to figure out you know what came to mind to her. And uh, but uh I guess to answer your question, I I didn't have any uh, you know, I didn't draw a blank on courageous moments.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

You're like, I got something to talk about. I got a couple things to talk about. Yeah, well, I that's great. I'd love to hear that. Okay, so let me ask you some very personal and probing questions. How old are you? Uh 35. Okay, so you got 35 years of walking planet Earth. You certainly run into some courageous endeavors doing that. And um, can you tell me, tell our audience whatever kind of elevator speech you want to give so that people can put you in context? Who are you? What do you do for a living? What kind of family do you have? Whatever you want to share.

SPEAKER_03 4:01

Sure. And I use this as a moment to also maybe set some uh the stage for the the to answer the question in the big story, if you will. Okay. Uh so living in Dallas now, 35, I've been uh entrepreneur, intrapreneur really my whole life, um, growing up. We moved a good bit uh about every two, three years and all over the country. And then when was when I was 16, moved to Cornfield in Indiana, found about 2,000 people. And I stayed there for almost a decade, uh, studied political science, and somewhere along the way, while in college, I decided I was gonna be an entrepreneur, I guess, and started my first company. It was a digital marketing agency and did that for many years. And as I was doing that, you know, some clients ended up being bigger than others and ended up kind of quasi-running certain different companies and investing in them. And had gotten married uh right out of college, went to a small Christian school, Taylor University. Uh I think I mentioned studied politics, so uh mainly because you needed 128 credit hours to graduate, and it was the only degree that was 128 hours so that I could get out. That works. Yeah. And, you know, went to church my whole life, and you know, my parents were very strong Christians and really think of my childhood as being pretty idyllic in in many ways. Got married, you know, again, kind of in my mind, thought I was checking all the boxes. I was a virgin when I got married, so was she. And then we were married for a little more than two years, and we ended up getting divorced. Um, right after we'd had uh a daughter, Lucy, who today is almost 10 years old and the absolute uh love of my life. And she's actually here with me because we get a good bit of the summer together.

unknown 5:47

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 5:48

Um but as a side note, Lucy's grown up in Little Rock, uh, and I've counted uh or attracted a little over 4,000 hours of commuting to Little Rock every other week uh to see her as I've gone around the country. Uh but you know, when when that happened, uh it really shattered a lot of what I thought kind of, you know, the world how the world was supposed to work. Uh and not only, you know, was I all of a sudden divorced with my daughter living somewhere else, uh, I'd gone from kind of being pretty financially successful for my age at 25 to basically in debt uh as a result of all of that, and uh didn't quite know what to do other than I wanted to try to probably do the opposite of everything I had done up to that point. And one of my clients was a community bank in New York called Quantic. And I gotten to know this, the owner and founder, Steve uh Schnall, very well. And he Monday we were having martinis in the Hamptons, and he said, you know, I think you could run a bank. And so, you know, it in some ways it was a big moment of courage to kind of leave a world that I was kind of a big, I made myself somewhat of a big fish in a small pond to go work for someone else for the first time in a highly regulated industry that I knew absolutely nothing about, and uh on the spot said yes. And so uh moved to New York City and joined this little bank. At the time, I like to joke I wasn't a banker and didn't know the idea of due diligence. What I didn't know was the bank was also one step away from a cease and desist. But here I am, a you know, kid from the cornfields living in New York City, uh, working at this uh tiny 500 million in assets community bank. Um, and part of the idea that Steve and I had bonded over was he too wasn't really a banker. He had bought it during the recession, 2008 recession, and had hadn't really been actively involved in it himself. But you know, fintech and tech was getting hot and crypto, and we thought we could take this little bank and turn it into a digital bank. And that was really kind of the impetus for you know, meet me to join. And so did that and um, you know, wasn't really sure how to even think of myself or who am I in this context. I didn't feel like an entrepreneur anymore. Uh, wasn't sure I wanted to be, you know, a Christian or not anymore, um, and kind of wanted to get lost.

SPEAKER_01 8:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:16

And that's a great thing about New York is you you can do just that or just about anything you want, you want there.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:24

Um, and along the way, I was there for about two and a half years, and Steven ended up becoming my best friend in life. Uh, and had we five or six X the you know, profitability of the bank, and you know, I was the number two guy and you know, really loved life. Um, I was honored to be recognized as digital banker of the year, and you know, I somehow found myself in a very comfortable kind of spot, even though it wasn't Indianapolis anymore, in this whole new world. And it was around that time I really felt like God speak to me again, and maybe as clearly as I felt I'd ever heard him speak, around kind of how there was a bigger point and purpose to my life and you know who I am, and you know, not just an entrepreneur or a business person, and that he was calling me to something grand. And that was about two years into the journey. And when Steve and I had started, one of the ideas we had was what if you could have a debit card that gave you Bitcoin rewards? You know, at the time, Bitcoin was this new thing and didn't really trust going to place like Coinbase, didn't realize that you know, that wasn't, you know, quote unquote legal in the world of banking, of course. And but during those two and a half years, uh somehow found a way to solve the legal and regulatory uh world of bringing Bitcoin and blockchain blockchain to banking. And we were the first bank to launch a Bitcoin-related product. Um, you know, and from there, our partner, which was a large uh asset management management firm on Wall Street, kind of plucked me up and said, you know, come do this in the what felt like the at for the Yankees. Uh and so did that, and you know, we we built a $7 billion business within uh 12 months. And so I kind of paused there because it kind of brings me into a bit of the store, the story I want to tell. But you maybe that as a backdrop, you know, I'm I'm a dad, love being a dad, uh, love being an entrepreneur, and I've chased a series of uncorrelated problems with no experience, and each and every one of them I've ran at.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Yeah, and I love that backstory, Patrick. That's that's fantastic, and it puts you in great context. The other hallmark I'm seeing there is uh there's success. You know, you've got a comet's tale of success. You talked about the one where you went from affluence and very successful to a situation of debt, but it appears as though it turns around and it rises again. Has that been your history?

SPEAKER_03 11:07

Yeah, you know, grew up, I wouldn't say I I knew I was poor, and I don't know that I would say that is true, but definitely didn't have any money. And I think a series of life where, you know, be successful, made some money, and then ultimately every time I walked away from you know the comfort of where I was, whether that was making a million dollars a year to try to do something I'd never done, and making five million dollars a year, and then walking away again from that to go try to do it again, and at times uh being upside down and then you know, somehow getting up and out of it. And so definitely uh that would be true of the near the arc of my life has been uh taking big leaps and sometimes getting knocked back and finding a way to get back on top of it.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

Oh, I love it. So I don't want to I don't want you to answer the question yet, what's the most courageous thing you've ever done? But I want you to tell me because what I see pictured here is somebody who has um uh you're not troubled with fear, it doesn't seem to me. Is that accurate? Like you run into the storm, you're okay with that. I I would say so.

SPEAKER_03 12:18

Uh for whatever reason, my brain uh just kind of processes it very differently. Uh, much, much probably to my mother's chagrin, but uh it I do just process it differently. And uh, you know, related to this, actually, I the other day I was looking through some old photos on my phone to find some one of my daughter, and I found a cover of a magazine shoot, I guess I had done almost a decade ago in Indianapolis. And uh on it, there's this quote that I don't even recall making, but I I know is probably very true. Uh, for me, is every failure will lead to growth, and that's a positive defining end, says Patrick. When I fail, I only care that I grew and can overcome it. And so somehow I think I was just wired to say, okay, failure doesn't, it's not, it's it's not an end game. It just means I got a chance to try again smarter the next time and stand back up.

SPEAKER_01 13:15

Yeah, or based on that quote, it almost sounds like it's part of the process. So you're like, I'm gonna have this.

SPEAKER_03 13:21

Yeah, you know, and I I don't know how much this really, you know, consciously or subconsciously uh played itself out, but one of the you know things of my childhood I do really remember latching on to was the belief that God will redeem all things in this life or the next. And uh, I don't know if I maybe took that theologically too far with it's okay to fail because there will be redemption. Uh, but I just kind of have always been able to let go of the fear of failure.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

Well, this is this is right smack dab in the middle of the lane that we're talking about today, addressing this topic of courage. So just go right on ahead for me, Patrick, if you would and define courage. What's what's Patrick Sells say courage is?

SPEAKER_03 14:09

You know, um two different ways, I guess I would answer that question. One, it's almost the ability to take what can feel like you know, you know, palatable emotions that aren't grounded necessarily in reality but feel very real and be able to make a decision anyways. Uh, and that may be as much about kind of like the process of it, but I think courage a lot of times in small ways or big ways is the willingness to overcome one's own emotions. And I think uh the maybe in a more practical way, it's I'm going to I'm willing to do something agnostic to the outcomes and personal ramifications, right? And so whether that's standing up for something you believe in or you know, not doing something because of conviction you have, ultimately then you're willing to pay whatever consequence uh there is on the other side of that decision.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

That's a great definition. That's a wonderful definition. Um I'm thinking of the movie uh free solo. I can't think of the guy's name, David Honnell, or I don't know if that's his first name, but forgive me. But he's the mountain climber that does these massive free solos. And they they took him in and gave him a CAT scan or an MRI. And that part of the brain that registers fear just as he didn't have it. So that could be that could be kind of like you too. Or you're just your physiology might be a little bit different and it results in bravery. But I want to ask you, based on your uh definition of courage, do you see that in other people? Are there other people that inspire you with that? Can you can you pick it out in a crowd and go, that's what that guy's exhibiting courage or that woman's exhibiting courage? Yes and no.

SPEAKER_03 16:10

I I don't know. I think um it it's so easy to mask behaviors, to mask the the real truths in all of us. Uh I don't know that I'd want to walk into a room or you know, try try to guess who's being courageous or not. Um so probably would answer no, but would say have some you know decent probabilistic guess as to uh what's going on, but you know, not enough to where I'd want to make a bet on it. But you know, you you shared that about the free solo climber. And I do remember in my early 20s going and doing a pretty intensive kind of brain scan study. And one of the things that stood out was the place where I guess a lot of uh electrical activity happens for in and around you know, the feeling of anxiety. I'm closer to brain dead than not. Uh, and so that maybe that's maybe that's part of it. Uh, or at least that's my memory of how that went. But you know, like it's been a decade since I did that, but there probably is something to the neuro wiring, if you will. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Well, and and also, you know, it's interesting. I was on a uh prayer call earlier this morning, and our topic was uh 1 John chapter 4, verse 18 that talks about perfect love casts out all fear. It's a binary in the Bible. So love and fear can't coexist. You talked about your faith and growing up in a faithful household, and then that got challenged, you know, after your marriage failed. Where do you stand now with faith? And is that part of what keeps you from anxiety? Because God tells us over and over again, don't be anxious. It's hard for us not to, but he tells us to. And if you're there already, it could just be faith.

SPEAKER_03 17:56

Yeah, you know, I I think over my 35 years, there's been a lot of maybe emotional oscillations or volatility with kind of faith, but through all of my life, I have never lost a very solid mental conviction around uh my faith, if you will. Even in the dark years of running in New York, you know, I still held on to the belief that God will redeem all things, the father does give good gifts, love does cast out fear, and uh in some ways, kind of find life simpler to just take things as truth and not question them until and unless they you know prove to be different or prove to be false. Um so in ways, I I do think my faith definitely has helped in that regard. I do think there's probably some of it that is my neurological wiring uh that has kind of pushed it to an extreme, if you will. Uh so probably both.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Probably both. Both and yeah. Yeah. Um do you feel like we live in a courageous world? No. Do you? No. No. And I might be the I might be the f first poster child that'd raise my own hand and be self-effacing. But you know, that I don't I don't mean to be maybe I should not be trying to be so cute about that. I think it goes on and off. I think there are times, you know, when um when I try to shelter myself and that doesn't feel as courageous, but then there's other times when I'm you know, I I look the thing square in the eye and I take a gulp and I make a step. And I'd like to think over time doing that becomes more rote as opposed to to the other. But yeah, I don't think we live in a very courageous world, but you describe that for me.

SPEAKER_03 19:50

Yeah, uh don't want to, you know, at the risk of pontificating. One of the things I've thought a lot about over the years is the the concept of resilience. And I think as humans, we are incredibly deeply, fundamentally, inherently resilient. Um, and whether that's the loss of someone or how you know, growing up in extreme poverty, war, cancer, abuse, I mean, you just think of all the things, and the the human, if you will, is just resilient. And I think as we you know grow older, even from an early age, we also in parallel tend to fragilize ourselves and others ever more so. No longer really want to test that resiliency, right? Like, especially in a country like America or in affluent circles or religious circles, it's like in some ways I see the tendency to fragilize, you know, extremely so, and no longer really want to lean on, exercise, rely on, or believe in that resiliency. And yeah, I mean, when resiliency is tested, it does hurt. Uh, but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing or a wrong thing. Uh, and I think, you know, probably one's conviction and my own ability to be resilient is probably highly correlated to the degree in which they will exercise courage in their life.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

That's now I want you to pontificate because there's a lot of good stuff in there, Patrick. But I get what you're saying. So you're you're equating life to being to touching a hot stove. And over time you don't want to do it. You know, you learn not to do it. That's the fragilizing that we're talking about. And my comment was uh I'd like to think courage builds more courage, builds more courage over time. So maybe the maybe the analogy of a hot stove is probably a bad idea, but I but I take your point.

SPEAKER_03 21:57

Yeah, and and I just since Said the pontificate, you know, at face react at face value. I don't know that I would agree that courage begets courage. Talk about that. I think there are virtues, if you will, like generosity, where I I do tend I've always thought of them more as a muscle. If I give, I tend to be more willing to give and give and give. Um for whatever reason, again, kind of face value, courage to me falls in this bucket of something. I it's more temporary in nature. Will I exercise it or not? And there's a lot of probably inputs that go into each and every one of those moments when we're presented with, am I going to be courageous or not? Um, that have to get factored, and a lot of them are probably irrational or grounded in emotions. Whereas I think resilience, the belief in oneself of I will be okay, I can be okay, uh begets courage, if you will. Like it's more, I think of it more of a derivative of um a real focus on the belief and resiliency. I don't know. Um, I also don't know that look uh having too much conviction around one's own resiliency necessarily is a great way of living life because you're probably gonna break yourself a lot uh and live a very different life. But again, I don't know if that's bad or not.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

If you did the resiliency, see, this is good, Patrick. Now we're getting into the deep end. If you if you had resiliency and you recognize that as a good quality, but then all of a sudden it started to uh interface with pride, then I think that turns into a bad thing. But if you can keep that resiliency with the humility and keep moving forward, then I think you can have a courageous result, maybe. Yeah. But okay. This is great. You had something else to say.

SPEAKER_03 24:04

No, I mean again, uh a lot of that I'm sure as I think about that little dialogue we had later today, I'll go, I you know, I I meant to say this, I was trying to commute articulate that. Uh, but I think it was a fun conversation, and I do think there's something between one's own understanding of their their inherent resilientness that probably matters a lot.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

Yeah, yeah. Do you have you considered yourself a courageous person?

SPEAKER_03 24:32

I would say I've considered myself a resilient person. Okay. Until I almost until I almost broke myself. Uh but in some ways, then I guess yes again, because probably how at least today I've been in mental model thinking of the interplay of the two. Uh, because I say I believe that I've been a resilient person, and it's something I've intentionally thought about, but it has led me to be courageous more often than not.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

You just know you just know whatever this world throws at you, and you're not asking for it, but you just have a confidence that whatever this world throws at you, you're you're gonna withstand it, you're gonna come back. It's not gonna keep you down. You've got that understanding about yourself.

SPEAKER_03 25:19

Ever since I was a kid, the sense of hey, the sun is still going to rise tomorrow. I will, I can find a way to smile again. It's like that's just a choice. And it's it and it's a recognition of reality. I mean, people grow live in all kinds of far worse scenarios in day-to-day life, and yet they can still be okay, still do great things. Uh so it's it's possible. Um, and even to the to you know, pushing it farther to say, should I try to break something in my own life to make sure that I'm just like I tried to break a muscle to grow it? Uh and you know, there's a book, Anti-Fragile, that talks about some of this as well. Um but I do think that's probably important.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

Walsh at GE was famous for taking his 10% of his customers that were weren't performing as well as the lowest 10%, and just would chop them off. That's to your point of you know, forcing an issue where you had to be resilient.

SPEAKER_03 26:33

Yeah. Uh the belief we are the average of the five people we spend the most time around. And if at some point in my life I find myself spending time, a lot of time with someone who I deeply love, but I'm not sure I want to be like them, am I willing to end that relationship? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

Wow. Um it's a great conversation, Patrick. Uh so let's come down to the question then, because I really want to know, and I'm sure our listeners want to know too. Patrick Sells, what's the most courageous thing you've ever done?

SPEAKER_03 27:06

Yeah, so picking up on that kind of backdrop, um, and one of my probably all-time favorite movie scenes uh is in you know, Batman the Dark Knight, when uh he's he's down in that cave uh in that kind of prison where there's no guards and there's no gates, right? And there's just that kind of rope, and he tries to you know climb out and jumps and can never quite make that last you know handhold to get out, and he keeps breaking his body trying to, and then he has to, you know, realizes he has to cut the rope to safety net because only then will he care, will he be able to jump enough. And at the same time, I wonder like to what degree if I don't cut it, will I just keep living this insanity of breaking myself? And I would rather either die or get out, right? Type conviction. Um, and so I kind of had that moment in my life, I'd say, where I had to cut the rope. I was in New York, and um, as I mentioned, you know, kind of at the pinnacle of success, success, uh, in every which way. Um, and at the same time, began to feel myself changing. And I was afraid that I was going to become too hardened internally into you know money and power in the way of uh kind of extreme intellect and really lose the the the personal side of me, the the part of me that loves people and family and life, and just I don't know. Um and I'd say without you know saying details, I can't, I I had somehow found I made it. And I had securely made it. Um and in a way where I was the guy. Uh and I quit. Um, and I think you know, I I told you when I'd been at Quantic, the the bank, and I felt God kind of called me or speak to me. When all that journey happened, I really felt like it was living out this great thing, you know, that had I had held on to, and uh having to come face to face with wait a minute, I don't either I mess this up or I misunderstood, or I don't know because this doesn't feel like it's right. This, you know, and how could and I I tell you, I was probably beyond confused, but angry, bitter. Um, and I walked away from an incredible amount of money and safety. Uh, and people, I love to go with a lot of good things about it because I wanted to say, hey, there's my life, it's not just about the success, other things are going to matter. And I really want to bring the full Patrick to life. Um, and so I cut that rope with the belief that okay, hey, you know, I I've got kind of a plan, I can make it through. Um, I didn't quite know what I was gonna do. Uh, and about two months later, my best friend in life, Steve, who I'd done that bank with, um, was supposed to buy the stock I had in the bank from me. We had agreed to this uh a while back, and I had you know borrowed some money on a short-term note to buy a house uh to get out of New York, and um Steve's killed in a car accident. And so now I've kind of cut the rope to say I'm gonna try to reinvent myself again, but I have kind of my safety, I have a kind of a plan. And then all of a sudden he's gone, and I own a house with only illiquid assets, and I have a multi-million dollar note due uh and no income. Um and started another business, and uh, you know, it got off to a great start. There was a lot of pressure, frankly, uh, you know, financially to try to figure it out. But I I flew around the country with hearts on a hat and bus and plane, and I told banks across the country that I loved them and I had this. I mean, it felt like I was able to bring the part of me that wasn't just the intellect, but the love for people. And uh it seemed like there for a minute, you know, I was gonna be able to pull it off fast enough that it was also gonna solve all these, you know, kind of problems that were brewing in the background. Uh but it I crashed out before I got there. Um, and so I guess the moment of courage was to say, hey, this despite having started off on what felt like God's calling to do this really big thing that turned out when I got closer to it, maybe wasn't that at all, and was going I the risk of losing myself to okay, I'm gonna take a leap and do something different. And despite then, you know, some things happening, thought I was gonna pull it off, and then I didn't. And uh, I guess my belief in resiliency uh was really tested. Uh, and can talk more about you know, kind of what happened and the lessons that learned, but uh, I guess I'll I'll pause there in terms of kind of the moment of leaving. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

Did you go back to New York? Were you fleeing something in New York or were you running to something? Because you said it wasn't you wanted to you wanted to become the fullness of what God made you to be, but you were talking about New York as if it was kind of it's all that, but it it wasn't what you were looking for.

SPEAKER_03 33:24

Yeah, look, I mean, I think when I went to New York, I was running from anything I knew, but then while there kind of found it seemed like you know, an even better fitting success and impact and calling. And then I think I, you know, being in that world of interacting with billionaires every day and making that kind of money, and you know, playing the quote unquote business game at that level, I begin to sense that it was going to become my idol and it was going to consume me, and I was not going to be able to get back to the like I feel like God made me both with uh unique IQ and EQ. And uh I wasn't gonna be able to get back to the EQ love piece. It was just gonna be, you know, 100 hours a week and go do this and go do this and go make that and do right, and no longer caring about like, do I love my neighbor, my do I love my family, what kind of person am I? I'm just a highly, highly successful tool that makes a lot of money. And so I guess I was running from those things becoming too close to my heart, yeah, if you will.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

Yeah. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. So the most courageous thing you've done is to take a chance. It didn't work out, but you're yet resilient.

SPEAKER_03 35:01

Yeah, I I think the most courageous thing was to walk away from, like I said, at the kind of pinnacle of success uh and being financially in every way secure. Um I gotta I can't I can't say certain things, uh but you know, to I don't know what I'm gonna do, but I feel like there's something that God wants this wasn't it, and there's something deeper to it. And so just to to walk away from all of that, what you know from as a kid in the cornfield and kind of just the way it all went was a big, big, big, big moment. And so I guess I would frame up the courageous thing was kind of it's like one day I got to the Yankees, you know, despite not being really meant to play professional baseball, and all of a sudden I'm we're about to go to the World Cup, and it's like I don't think this is what God has for me, and I'm just gonna walk away.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

Wow. Wow, that takes an awful lot of resilience. So you've you've clearly landed on your feet now.

SPEAKER_03 36:07

I'd say I'm I'm starting. So yeah, to kind of bring this together, I think the the reason my belief and resiliency in that moment was hey, I'm I can cut the rope, I can make this jump, I'm gonna walk away from all of this and go figure it out because I believe in myself and I know it'll be okay. Um and I thought I had a plan to make sure I was gonna be okay. 60 days after that kind of exercise and courage or belief and resiliency, when my friend was killed, everything began to fall apart. Um at the same time, it seemed like with the kind of just tremendous early success I'd had with this latest business that was taking place, uh, it seemed like that I'd made the right call. Um, you know, and but I wasn't able to outrun, I guess, the the pressures and stress and unforeseen things of what you know kind of financially was happening behind the scenes and started uh abusing medicine and drugs and and crashed out. I mean, I I it took myself to to rehab. I lost a you know, I went from a really, I mean, I financially being made to uh financially very stressful to financially devastated moment. Um and I'd say, you know, within a year of leaving, I I was pretty devastated um and depressed for the first time in life and really struggled to not want to give up on myself. Um, and so you know, I don't know that I've ever tried to articulate all this uh out loud in kind of a story format, but I guess that moment, what felt like the moment of courage of walking away from everything was a really big moment, but in ways the bigger moment was gonna come uh a year later when you know it's like I cut the rope. I thought I I had the hand my hand you know in the wall to get out, and then the wall crumbled and I just felt. Yeah. Uh and I think then it was okay, did I you know was all this these things I believed in in myself true? Do I still believe those? What happened? Did I make the right decision and leaving? What happened to that, you know, kind of felt like God moment in my life after everything the first time? How could this have all gone so wrong?

SPEAKER_01 38:41

Um how you know I I was really lost in the mud. We're catching you, Patrick. I love this story so much. Oh, I love this story. We're catching you with the analogy of the dark knight, cutting the rope and making the leap. But we're not talking about you climbing out of the pit yet. We're talking about you bumping your head again, but now you're up, dusting yourself back off, and you're ready to get back up and go after it again. And that really is courage. Yeah, that is resilience as you as you discuss. And it's beautiful, and all of us can relate to that.

SPEAKER_03 39:23

Yeah, exactly. It's not a story where, hey, look, here, here I I made this decision and look at what played out, right? Like, um, I'm a couple years past it all, and like I'm back on my feet. Uh, I did cut the rope, and then it's like everything that could have gone wrong went wrong. I fell and probably broke every bone in my body. Um, and somehow the little light inside of me didn't give up. Um, and I'm here today uh and you know, in a much better spot, happy and in and engaged. I think I'm still there's still a lot of questions in my mind about like what the heck was all that. And uh, you know, the it's quieter now than it used to be. And then uh there's also a lot of good things that have happened um that couldn't have happened. But yeah, I mean, I'm I'm probably like a lot of people, it's like okay, it took a big leap, kind of you know, it crap hit the fan, and now I gotta figure out what was that.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

But we're just jumping in, we're just jumping into a segment of the story though, and it's like the you know, so you you you don't know. I don't know, but the thing that is so powerful is that you cut the rope. I mean, I'm sitting here right now being inspired, uh wondering about the rope that I'm tethered to, trying to make the leap. And I think, don't you think everybody can relate to that, Patrick?

SPEAKER_03 40:53

Yeah, for sure. And I I guess you know, it's one thing, and this is where I'd say I probably was, though I didn't understand until this happened a couple years ago. Like I saw that clip and I understood it, it inspired me, but I guess I thought, well, if I ever cut the rope, should I ever cut the rope, I'll make it too. And then I didn't. Um yet, yeah, I didn't, and yeah, exactly. But uh I I will, and I will make it, and I it did bring me to really question myself and some of those things around resiliency, but then it all did play itself out and is playing itself out. God is redeeming all things, and some of it look is my fault, some of it was just terrible luck, some of it I don't understand, and I may not see that redemption in my lifetime, but I'm okay with that. I I can let that go. Um, and I I think that's what it is, you know, that's what it's about, is like I am willing to take those hard consequences that could come, and it doesn't always play itself out the way we hoped or wanted. Uh and that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 42:14

Wow. I I well I don't want to be self-effacing, and here I'm gonna do it. I don't know if I'm that good of an interviewer because I want to say how what an inspiring uh interview this is, and I don't want to slobber on you too much. But you know, the Bible says what does it profit a man if he gains a whole world but loses his soul? And do we want to talk to the do we want to talk to the resilient person? Do we want to talk to the courageous person at the end of the story? Or do we want to talk to him uh at the climax, you know, you know, when everything comes together? Or do we want to talk to him when he's when he's getting started, when he's been knocked down. And there it is, you know, the look in his eye, and he's dust himself off, and he's saying, I'm not out of the fight yet. Here I go, because I trust the Lord. I know what he said to me, I know I'd made the right decision. You know, I was not being my the person that God put me here to be. I I think this is this is super inspirational.

SPEAKER_03 43:18

I I think we've got to talk about that more. You know, you asked me if I thought the world was courageous, I don't tend to think it is, and I think one of the small things we can do is be more open about the moments we're in, because I think it's how you get through them uh more often than not. But yeah, look, I mean, I tell you story, you know, I hear here I was in a sense, you know, virgin before I get married, and my mind is like, okay, if you do these things, then it's gonna work. It didn't work. And you you said that the, you know, was what's the point you gain the whole world and lose your soul? I mean, that was exactly what was on my heart when I chose to quit. And then everything broke.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

So now I would imagine you're having some interesting conversations with God, Patrick, if you even give him the time of day lately. But Lord, what's what's going on?

SPEAKER_03 44:16

It is a reckless abandonment or a reckless belief that God does redeem all things and uh that we do have free will and he is in control. And I think there's a lot of like I remember this sermon John uh John Piper way back in the day that you know what it to be a theologian is to wrestle with two things that are both true and in contradiction to each other, and to be okay sitting in that. Uh there's a lot of life that I wish I could understand. I don't know that I get it all, and I'm also okay with that. Um, and I do think that uh look in ways probably closer. My conviction in God and belief in him is only stronger through all of my life. Like I said, I think there's emotion, there's more what I would say emotional volatility in it all. But I like I don't think I'm still standing here simply because I, Patrick sells the human, thought he was resilient enough. Uh there has to be a belief in something greater than that and in God, and so there's still a great thing to be done, and I'm just along for the ride with all my sins, mistakes, blessings, gifts, and curses, right? Yeah. Uh yeah. I guess I'm probably more hopeful and optimistic about life than ever before because I don't I I've seen a lot of lows.

SPEAKER_01 45:41

Look, you got yeah, whenever I'm given a talk, I always say we got two choices either God's everything or he's nothing. That's it. You don't have anywhere in between to land because he doesn't give us that option, as C.S. Lewis so aptly puts it. Either God's everything or he's nothing. And if he's everything, that means that his word is true. Every bit of it, every jot and tittle. And he says in Ephesians 2.10 that we're God's masterpiece, we're his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do the things that he put us here to do. That's a very, very, very good thing. We mix it up because I now I'm preaching, Patrick, forgive me, but you're inspiring me. I told you. But we mix it up, I think, because we think it's the Lamborghini and it's the three houses, and it's the family that looks like this, and it's the and that's not what it is. We are God's masterpiece, created in Christ Jesus to do the things that He put us here to do. And those things are so uh eternally important, but they're God's things to do. Maybe I'm supposed to hug somebody today, maybe I'm supposed to do a good deed, maybe I'm supposed to maybe make a billion dollars. You know what I mean? But it's it's for each of us, and and you're standing right at the precipice of that saying, God, this doesn't make sense. I've been courageous, I listened, and I'm trusting you. We'll see. And I that's powerful.

SPEAKER_03 47:09

Uh you know, there's so many different, I don't know, narratives or things in life that are happening all at once, right? And like I think it's we it's a we sell it short if we try to just like pick one narrative or arc of what's going on because it's it's it's more you know multiverse than not in some ways, although I don't love that phrase. But like, for example, I think one of the things God had to teach me or get me to pay attention to was I I needed to be sober and I've I'm now sober. Uh you know, and so you try to think, okay, well, hey, I I take these moments of corruption, you know, courage and these things work, these things don't work. And if you just focus on what broke, maybe you don't pay attention to all the other things that were going on, right? And so uh I don't think it was just for that purpose, but that has been one of the upshots of is like, okay.

SPEAKER_01 48:01

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 48:02

That's something I can I can learn from.

SPEAKER_01 48:04

Yeah, praise God. That's definitely a takeaway, as we would say. Yeah, okay. Let me ask you this about cutting the rope. And I just got a few more questions for you, Patrick, and then I'll let you go. This has been a wonderful interview. Um, regarding cutting the rope and the courage that it takes to cut the rope, C.S. Lewis says that most people have no idea what they're capable of doing, and most people never do it unless they absolutely have to. Do you agree with that?

SPEAKER_03 48:31

Yeah, 100%. That and in ways that is what I'm trying to get at with this notion of resiliency of like we give ourselves glass ceilings in every which way we don't think we're strong, like a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_01 48:46

Um are you bold enough to test that? Right. Because I think as a society, if people really did press in to Ephesians 2.10 in their life and do the thing that God put them here to do, I think this place would shine like a diamond. Yeah. I mean, I think it would just be fantastic, but because we're maybe full of too much fear and embracing that instead.

SPEAKER_03 49:10

Well yeah, totally. I mean, way too much, and life is too short. We none of us know what's coming around the corner, and God did put us here for a reason, and kind of who cares how much it hurts me because it was never about me, anyways.

SPEAKER_01 49:24

It wasn't. No, no, no. Um okay, what do you say to the guy who's needing to cut the rope? What do you say to what do you say to Patrick Sells, who's in not in New York, who's in LA, at the same time you're in New York, and he's killing it, and he's just printing money, but it's not his soul is dying or he can't take a breath. What do you tell that guy?

SPEAKER_03 49:56

It's so easy to get caught up in the very temporary moment we live in, and right, like these things matter. I need to get this done, these relationships is money. But if you have that, if you have that sense of nagging, that voice in your head saying, Do you should you cut the rope? Like, that is your moment, I think, to hear God. And it may, much like my story in a way of like I cut that rope thinking it was about a business thing, and I think there was all kinds of things in my life personally that God needed to teach me. And it really wasn't like, but you got to honor it and look, who knows on what's on the other side of it, it could be devastating. Maybe I don't think it's that you misheard God, I think it's that maybe God was doing something in your life or someone else's life that you just didn't understand or care to see. Um, but almost like you gotta be kind of reckless in the hey, if I hear it, I gotta respond and let go and trust. And I think the temptation to want to have a plan before you cut the rope means you're not cutting the rope. I think the temptation to wait till this moment in time means you're not really cutting the rope. I think the you know pride gets in the way of it, and I think if you're gonna do it, you gotta cut it. You really gotta cut it. That's right. You gotta cut it. You gotta be okay with getting knocked down, getting knocked back because don't you want to know what God was gonna do?

SPEAKER_01 51:40

You operate in some interesting circles, Patrick. Are you mentoring people right now?

SPEAKER_03 51:45

No, um yes and no. I've got a younger brother by a decade that I I've been helping out over the last several months with a company he had started, um, and and more actively trying to help him and his br and his some of his employees. Uh, but I wouldn't say, you know, all that actively mentoring. I think it really wasn't Jeff until the beginning of this year where I felt like, okay, like I had my head screwed back on enough and I was far enough from it all um to really be in a good spot. Um, but so no. And and probably you hear me humming and hawing because it's probably something I I I probably need to be doing.

SPEAKER_01 52:33

Well, if it's a little crumb in the road that helps and adds to other crumbs, yeah. Let me be let me be happy to put one out there. But I uh and God's timing is always perfect for that kind of stuff, but you gotta you're a fountain of a lot of good stuff, Patrick. I think you got a lot of good stuff to share. So um wow. Patrick Sells, it's great reuniting with you, and you are a man of great resilience and authenticity and uh intellect and success and all of that wonderful stuff, and somebody knows who knows what it's like to get knocked down and pick himself back up again, and a man of great courage. Thank you so much for sharing with us today, Patrick. Thanks, Jeff.

SPEAKER_03 53:16

Thanks for uh having this conversation with people like myself and others and to help and you know kind of bring courage all more to the forefront of our minds so that we can all live more courageous lives.

SPEAKER_00 53:30

Thank you for joining us today on Courageous. If you'd like to hear more about the work and ministry being done at Crossroads Apologetics, please visit our home on the web at crossroadsapologetics.org. Would you or someone you know like to be featured on Courageous? Send us an email at info at crossroadsapologetics.com or info at crossroadsapologetics.org, telling us about the most courageous thing you've ever done.