Joe Slavens: Values, Decisions, and the Price of Courage

In this episode of Courageous Crossroads, Jeff Johnson sits down with longtime friend, business leader, attorney, and entrepreneur Joe Slavens for a thoughtful conversation about courage, values, leadership, and the difficult decisions that shape a meaningful life. Joe challenges conventional definitions of courage, arguing that some of its most important expressions occur when deeply held values come into conflict and a person must discern what matters most, accept
the cost, and make a decision rather than simply drift or avoid the issue. He shares candid examples from his own life, including the painful decision to terminate the employment of his best friend and his willingness to walk away from a highly anticipated sale of his family’s bank when the transaction no longer aligned with his values. Along the way, Joe reflects on the importance of wise counsel, purposeful living, family legacy, values-based leadership, and the
potential challenges artificial intelligence presents to a society increasingly reluctant to think deeply about what it believes. A lifelong Iowan and University of Iowa graduate, Joe trained as an attorney before joining his family business, Northwest Bank and Trust Company, where he worked alongside his father and eventually led the organization for more than two decades. Following the sale of the bank, he continued his involvement in a number of related businesses
and investments, including trust, software, tax and accounting, and real estate ventures. Married to his high school sweetheart, Anne, for more than four decades, Joe is the father of three and grandfather of a growing family, and he views the transmission of enduring values across generations as one of the truest measures of a meaningful legacy.

Thank you for listening! We hope you feel inspired and encouraged by our conversation today. If you did, be sure to share this episode with others.

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See you in the next episode! Be blessed!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics. A look into what motivates us to step out in courage and the everyday bravery of men and women like you. In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this question: What's the most courageous thing you've ever done? And now your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson.

SPEAKER_05 0:41

Hey everybody, Jeff again. Welcome back to another edition of the Courageous Crossroads Podcast where I get to ask that question What's the most courageous thing you've ever done? I'm interested in that topic. And because of that, I start seeing it everywhere. Every single podcast that I listen, other podcasts that I listen to, the radio programs, the uh TV programs, news programs, um series that are on TV that my wife and I might be watching at that certain time. I see this topic of courage come up and how it's elevated and lifted up because it's looked at as such a good quality and such a necessary, such a needed quality. And I think that that's absolutely true. And um I keep seeing it everywhere and I know you've got it. I know you've got it as well, and you've got an answer to that question. What's the most courageous thing you've ever done? And I'd love to hear it. So make sure you reach out to us. You can find us at crossroadsapologetics.org where we've got not only uh a storage vault of all kinds of episodes where I've asked all sorts of different people in many, many, many different walks of life this question what's the most courageous thing you've ever done? But there's also a curated bookshelf there. I'm an avid reader, a bunch of books and stuff like that that you might be interested in. There's blog posts and other resources that you might find, but there's a way to connect with me there. And if you would love to be on the program, I would absolutely love to have you as a guest and ask you that question. What's the most courageous thing you've ever done? But I've got an amazing guest up for you next. Joe Slavins is a dear friend of mine, a very close friend. He and I go back, we figured about 25 years, and I could have guessed maybe what his most courageous thing is because I know him very well. But you know, it's in the details, it's really in the details where you find the good stuff. And so that's why I loved putting the question to him, and I was surprised with the depth and the nuance with which he answered this question and addressed it. You're gonna absolutely love this interview. So without further ado, here's my friend Joe Slavins. Ladies and gentlemen, I have got a dear friend of mine, Joe Slavins, on the program today. And I'm not Joe, I don't want this to turn into a slobber fest, but I I'm not gonna start off without saying you're you're probably the smartest guy I know. And I and I've got a lot of friends, Joe. You don't get around very much. You're I mean, you're dialed in, and you've been such a blessing to me for a long, long time now, 20 plus years. But ladies and gentlemen, one of the smartest guys I know, the smartest guy I know, Joe Slavins. Joe, thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

You're very kind, Jeff, and and uh I would say that I thank you uh for the kind words, and uh uh I'm blessed by your friendship of uh 20 years, and uh we're uh we're we're just I'm just glad we both feel like we're lucky to have each other. Oh, we sure are. We sure are. Is that how far we go back? Uh it was it was so we met uh in Pelham, Iowa in August of 2001. So it would be 25 years now that we uh reflect upon it. And we're only about you walking up a golf course uh to the 18th hole in Pella, Iowa, and the rest is history.

SPEAKER_05 4:12

That was that was it. I remember it was a little retreat. We were supposed to go on to Las Vegas of all places, and we had to reroute to uh Pella, Iowa. You want to tell people why we did that, Joe?

SPEAKER_01 4:27

Well, it's a little thing called 9-11, and uh we were um fortunate enough to have a security expert in Mr. Bill Jackson uh as a part of our group as well. And while, you know, maybe you know, I think some people might have acted out of uh emotional fear, uh sort of thing. We we had sort of the intellectual approach to say, is this a smart idea uh both from a safety standpoint and from just a will we get stranded standpoint for a lot of business guys who really can't afford to get stranded to make the decision, you know, to make the make the uh decision not to go. I think we went the next year though. Uh we went to Vegas. Yeah, we went to have that experience.

SPEAKER_05 5:02

We went and relived it the next year, but I remember that. That was a powerful, not only the circumstances of us being in Pella, but uh bonding early on with a forum with a group of guys, you know, where we really experienced well our forum was the Iron Man Forum, based on the proverb 2717, as iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. So we were diving into that kind of stuff, and uh that was a powerful experience.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

But what a correct myself then, it would have been September then, uh, because I I came in at that retreat. So you uh Bill Jackson had kind of made the advice uh in August, I think, to move that off. So uh as I as I do, I err and then I of course correct. There it is.

SPEAKER_05 5:43

There it is.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

Been married 41 years.

SPEAKER_05 5:46

I'm very comfortable being wrong. 41 years. Okay. So tell people, give people uh a little bit of an elevator speech on who is Joe Slavins to put you in context before we start delving into the topic of courage. So what do we need to know about Joe?

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Well, I'm uh I'm I'm born blessed, uh, my parents, um, Bob and Muriel Slavins. My dad was uh an attorney by training, went into banking. My mom was a stay-at-home mom, blessed with great parents, had a sister Jane, grew up in uh idyllic Bettendorf, Iowa, went to school and high school, and uh, of course, uh went on to the University of Iowa, the greatest uh public university, or maybe perhaps any university in the entire uh intellectual um upper education. Go hawk, without a doubt. Yeah, go hawk's bleed black and gold. Uh studied to be an attorney, although I remember my I wrote it my my uh entrance, uh, you know, the the application essay said I wanted to be trained as an attorney so I could apply it uh to things outside the law, and my dad said you have to rewrite it because uh law schools want to train lawyers, they don't want to train other people, so I had to rewrite it to say I wanted to actually be a lawyer uh as well. But I graduated uh in uh a couple years from law school, um, had a great experience there, went to join the family business, uh, which was Northwest Bank and Trust Company. Um and uh prior to that, I uh between undergrad and law school, I married my high school sweetheart at the uh young age of 21. Started my my we had to start our family uh the month after I got my first paycheck, so I wasn't on the uh family uh toll anymore. And um worked with my father for 13 years. Uh late in that process, uh structured transaction to buy my uncle out, um, ran the bank for uh after my father died for about uh 20, little little less than 25 years, sold the bank, um, but fortunately kept many of the uh the sort of other businesses that we developed. We had a trust company, software company, um, tax and accounting firm, real estate investments, kept those as a part of the sale. And uh now um the uh grandfather we have three kids, uh great kids, um the grandfather to eight and about a half. We've got one due uh early December. And um love love love uh my entire family that they're they are the center of uh of the universe uh for for Anne and I. I mean and I should say for Ann. I call her the goat. Um unfortunately she knows what that means. Uh I I you you you were kind enough to refer to me intellectually. I will tell you that I cannot fathom a better uh grandmother or grandmother uh to our grandchildren. I and I think that all of them would attest to that. Joe, you married so well.

SPEAKER_05 8:23

Ann is absolutely fantastic, yeah, for sure. We have that in common as well, sir. Without a doubt. Yes, we do. Yes, we do. We both married well. Okay, where did you meet Ann?

SPEAKER_01 8:34

Uh in high school. Uh and and and you know, while we kind of knew of each other, uh we were in Bettendorf, we were at we were at the first away game in 1981. It was actually September uh 11th, 1981, and she sat in front of me in the Burlington football stadium, and she sat on my feet uh you know accidentally. And um it was love at that moment, and I chased her and got her to date me, and then she'd dump me, and I'd got her to date me, and then she'd dumped me, and I got her to date me, and then she'd dumped me. We had we had about six or seven times that she'd dumped me, but I was persistent uh and um uh I got what I got what I uh wanted, not maybe what I deserved. I didn't deserve what I got, I got better than that. But uh, she married me and um she's been hanging every every day I wake up and ask her if she's gonna throw me out or if I can come home, and she says no, and that's a that's a blessed that's the biggest blessing I get that day.

SPEAKER_05 9:23

That took a certain amount of courage to be tenacious like that in pursuit of your beloved.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

Uh well thank you. Yeah, I'm I'm uh I I guess I don't it's interesting I would get ahead of the curve, but I don't think of myself as courageous, so that's kind of you to have a broader definition of that.

SPEAKER_05 9:38

Okay, okay. Well, that's interesting. I see, I would have thought I would have thought you would have identified yourself as courageous, because I certainly identify you as courageous, but that talks about your hallmark, other hallmark of humility. So anyway, let me ask you this, because I I introduced you as the smartest guy I know, which is a fact. Which is a fact. I'm sorry, yeah, you deal with it, Joe. But um okay, so we talk about IQ and then we also talk about EQ. There's a little story I'm gonna betray about you. You we were at a uh business meeting with some other um forum brother guys, and Joe stood up on the table and said to us, he said, I want to do this because I want to make sure that you remember it. And he said to each one of us in a in a voice a couple octaves higher than it needed to be, you are all gonna die. And I'll never forget it. And then he climbed down off of the table and he presented his treatise, and his treatise was you need to have a will and you need to make sure that your affairs are put together because this thing is gonna come to an end and you've got responsibilities, et cetera, et cetera. And I thought, what a powerful thing to do, willing to, you know, some people would say that that's a little bit humiliating, standing up in a restaurant on top of a table and doing, you know, exasperated like that. But it made the point. And the only reason that you did it was because number one, it was true, and two, because you cared enough about us to do that, to make a fool out of yourself to do that. And I've never forgotten it, and my fares are in order because of Joe Slavin, so thank you very much. But that denotes two things one, IQ, smart to know that you need to have that done, and EQ, the emotions to to read the room and know that you care about these people, and this is an important thing to do. So I want to ask you, kind of in the deep end of the beginning, off as we start this off, Joe, what's more important, IQ or EQ? How do those two relate to each other? Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

What's more important? I I I I I I hate uh binary questions. Uh because I I'm a philosoph my philosophy is both and. Um and I I think that um I would start with the fact that both have uh a certain level of both is necessary for a um happy and productive life. Um and then then the the second part of that sort of equation would be is both would have um points of diminishing returns on them. So you you know you sort of want to be in the in the you want to be in the slot on both of them. And if one becomes too dominant, you know, you you don't get the benefit, but you get the burden of that extra EQ or extra IQ. Uh and and it and the the the the burden of that extra EQ or IQ actually has a net, you know, sort of a negative associated with it. So I I think there's a you know, I'm gonna use it, you know, I think there's a great deal of strength in being normal.

SPEAKER_05 12:40

Yeah, normal as we would define it as having both.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Yeah, I can't, you know, um I I think you uh yeah, yeah, I think you have to have both. I mean, you know, and again I'm putting on scale. If you had zero IQ, boy, you you know, you'd you'd be in real trouble, even if you had an extraordinary EQ. Um you know, you wouldn't be able to feed yourself. I mean, just you know, you go on and on and on and on about the things you wouldn't have. And if you have no EQ, you know, the IQ becomes meaningless because you can't convey that knowledge in any way to someone or use it for anyone's benefit.

SPEAKER_05 13:11

Does one motivate the other more than the other? You know, it starts with EQ as IQ is the engine, but EQ is the spark that gets it going, so to speak, or does it depend on the circumstances?

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Well, I uh again, there they're there there, you know, you're trying to have me judge between my right hand and my left hand, and yes, I am right-handed. Um, you know, I I will say that I think that um, you know, if I have a bias, um, you know, my bias is probably intellectual. Uh, you know, because I think when you are intellectual and and and and think about things, you can um there's there's a what's the word I want to say, a proxy for EQ. Um if you don't naturally have EQ, but you're smart and you realize that having EQ is important, you can work on it and you can develop tools to help you either have or look like you have a higher EQ. Uh, you can't the other it doesn't work the other way around. Uh and a high EQ, you're not gonna be, you know, you you you you can you can work on and develop that EQ, I think, and and get tools to substitute for it. But I don't there's no replacement for a certain level of intellectual capacity. Doesn't mean it's better. That's just you you force me into a little bit of a of a of a prioritization there.

SPEAKER_05 14:21

Well, it's a yeah, these are my own selfish little little curiosities, Joe. So I give myself freedom to ask all these questions. But I hear what you're saying. Asking, choose between my right hand and my left hand. Yeah, which which blade of the scissor is the most important? Well, you gotta have both of them to do it. In business, you know, we're we're we learn to in order to be successful, we gotta surround ourselves with really uh good, competent people, good consultants. Is it easier to hire IQ or is it easier to hire EQ? Sorry for another binary.

SPEAKER_02 14:59

I think it's easier to hire IQ, uh, you know, and it's easier to test that IQ before you make the hire.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

Um I think that, you know, um EQ is a little tougher to because EQ is something that is demonstrated generally speaking, you know, over time and it's not it's not quite as uh um testable, if you will, in in circumstances. You can you can try, but uh you know, people could play out a position uh emotionally, I think longer than they can play out of position intellectually.

SPEAKER_05 15:29

I'm wanting to ask some kind of a smart question now about where does courage relate as far as IQ and EQ. Does it have a relation to those?

SPEAKER_01 15:40

You know, I it's it's interesting, you know, you you you you invited me, which is very nice to and uh, you know, I I accept it because I not because I feel like I'm courageous, but because I um like you, respect you, enjoy you, um can't really say no to you. Um but you know, I I um I think that there's a you know, one of the distinctions would be um you know that the whole idea of you know physical courage versus what I'll call you know either moral or intellectual courage. That's pretty standard sort of a dividing line, depending on what what lingo you want to use. Um and uh, you know, I I think that um physical courage um you know has it can have both elements uh of those things, but I think ultimately physical courage, you know, generally speaking to me comes from the idea that the um uh the benefits to the community, to society, to the broader group are bigger than the risk that I took individually. I mean, I I think we all think of the uh first responder rushing into the World Trade Centers. Um and they were doing something that, you know, they they were they were putting their lives at risk because they thought that they could um save more people than uh the risk of them losing their own life. And that's an act of physical courage that I think is trained into them intellectually, you know, and it's why we have fire departments and police departments, and why we have the armed services and and and the first you know, all that whole uh group of people that put the but that puts society ahead of um uh themselves. Now there has to be some sort of an intellectual engagement of that, otherwise, you know, you can elect you can intellectualize that all the beat. It's like, but heck, I might die, I'm not gonna go. And so you have to embrace that in uh uh emotionally as well. But I think behind all of that is an intellectual um, you know, decision that's been either been bred or trained or whatever. Um, you know, intellectual courage, I I I I sat and thought a lot about a lot about this, um, and how you know again, how it fits into things. And and I I really struggle with the concept, Jeff, um, because I think um life is really built upon values. And if you have no values, I don't think you can argue have any courage. Because to me, your courage is you know, the the implicit concept is that you're weighing, you know, a decision A versus decision B, and and that I'm gonna I'm putting something at risk under A and B, and I make I make a decision that I'm gonna you know put my whatever's gonna have the negative impact to me is outweighed by the positive impact to whatever other constituencies I'm serving. Um and and so I I come around to say is is that really courage or is that just the implementation of your values? Uh and and so I so when I I go back to saying if you don't have values, you can't have courage. Um and so now if you do have values, um my take on it is that the only time that you exhibit courage is when your values are in conflict. And so the it it takes courage, if you will, to reflect upon the values and place you know one in front of the other. And you know, the the example that's a horrible example to use is you know, you have two children, they're both in the street, they're both yours, and you only have the you're given the choice of saying you only get to rescue one of your kids. Yeah. I mean, I'm not giving, you know, that's that's an impossible decision to make, and they're equally valued. And and so I I don't that's that's one you know, that's sort of a a uh um, you know, uh a choice that you you know not acting costs you both children. Acting, you you can only save one, and you'll be you'll be forever as much as you'll be happy you save one, you'll be tragically you know, saddened and dis and have despair for not having the other. Now, most of the time we don't have that sort of equality of of values, if you will. Um that is it's not it's not identical. And so, you know, we we have to be reflective and discern, you know, ultimately which value. And that's and that's that's a human, that that's a that's a that's a human being thing when we're when we're when we're living our life. It's a leadership requirement. I mean, I I in my business world, um, I view one of my roles as the leader of my business to um identify the values of the company, communicate them, educate on them, remind them, and then ultimately be the person who has to make decisions whenever the conflicts are in vac are in conflict. I don't expect someone who works for me to make that decision because I've told them A and B, and when I can't achieve A and B and they're in conflict, then you gotta come to me and I have to make the hard decision. I don't expect you to do that. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_05 20:16

Let me use this as an example just to get a better, a better framework or or maybe another way to look at your definition of courage, because I love that.

SPEAKER_03 20:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 20:27

I love my wife so much, and that's a sacrificial love. So I'll go without some things so that she can have some things. My birthday was last weekend, and she wanted to go to NASCAR, and she loves that. So we went to the NASCAR race. It's not my favorite thing. And she said, I feel selfish, I feel like maybe we shouldn't be going to the and I said, honey, wherever you are, that's where I want to be. So if you want to go to NASCAR, I go to NASCAR. So it's kind of a kitschy, kind of a fun little picture of it. But my values are that I love my wife, and because of that, I'm willing to do some things for her that I wouldn't necessarily do. Where's my courage in that? Is that where you're defining courage then? You're saying that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

No, I'm not sure. Um, I mean, yes, because you know, I mean, and I'm I'm not actually, I mean, I'm I'm saying I I don't I don't necessarily believe in intellectual courage because I think all we're doing is making choices and ranking our values. And if I have some, if I have something in value and something that's not of value, that's easy. If I have something that's, you know, two values are in conflict, um, it's not courage, it's discernment. And and uh uh you know, and again, I don't I don't want to take go too far off on the tangent, but see, I I think that selfishness gets a really, really bad rap. Um, I think God wired us to have you know certain values, we develop certain values, and when we defend those values, we're being selfish. And so we rank those values. And let me tell you something, I get huge. Value out of making my wife please, even if it's like you said, something I don't want to do. Yeah. I I can't think of anything that we've ever experienced in 41 years where she said she wanted to do this and it made her happy. And no matter how much I disliked it, I um didn't do what she wanted to do because that was the the number one. Again, she's never asked me to do something against, you know, right the law. She's never asked me to do something against God's word, whatever. But but uh she she, you know, in the in the in the human sphere, her happiness ranks one. And that gives me, and and selfishly, that gives me so much energy and so much happiness that it overwhelms any negative associated with whatever activities she's asked me to do. So I think you're the same way. So I don't think you were courageous. I think you were I think you were penultimately applying your value structure selfishly.

SPEAKER_05 22:53

Just living, just living according to my values selfishly, which is not a negative thing, but it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

Yeah. And again, there are probably some people that get wired and again, you know, um, or find themselves in position where their values are all screwed up, Jeff. We all know those, seen those kind of people, known those kind of people. And um, you know, we we sit, you know, hopefully don't sit in judgment, but we we'd like to kind of course correct or say, gosh, we don't want to live there. And then they get some like really atrocious outcomes because their values are mixed up.

SPEAKER_05 23:23

So maybe I should ask you for a definition of courage then. Or did you already give it to me that it's the physical?

SPEAKER_01 23:31

Well, it's easy on the physical side, you know, and and and I think that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_05 23:34

It is the running into the building and at the cost of your life to sacrifice to save somebody else or whatever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:41

And I and I guess I will say the game, because I don't want to fight you here on this or leave you, leave you, you know, leave it empty. I I I think there is one part of courage intellectually I will say, and that is the courage to decide between your values. And the courage to and so it's it's not uh because you're giving something up then. And I and I think that's really what the you know, the definition of courage is, you know, I think giving something that that has a cost to it in order to get something else. But again, I think we all, as long as we are being, you know whether it's momentarily reflective or you know, deeply contemplative, we should be making decisions with respect to our values. Um, and so uh again, the courage is not necessarily the decision itself, the courage is in knowing you need to make a decision because I think that lots of people live their lives uncourageously because they are unwilling to confront and make the decision of the ranking of their values. So there's more, there's a more of a lack of courage. You know, it's it's like you know, I I think you know, you're an engineer, so I shouldn't maybe go down this path because I'll get wiped out. But cold does not exist, it's the absence of heat. That's right. So in the intellectual side, I sort of look at and say, yeah, courage is you know, you make that decision, but it's really about in the world, in my opinion, there's a whole lot of lack, there's a whole lot more lack of courage because people don't consciously and reflectively make decisions about which of their values uh is more important than another value, because you do have to at times make those. You try and avoid them, you try and live your life in a way where you're you know you're always in line. But um, you know, you can have a you can value family and you can evaluate and you can value um honesty, you know, uh and and you can sit back and say, oh my gosh, when do I how do I tell my son this or my daughter that or my wife that because I value honesty, but I also don't want to hurt him.

SPEAKER_05 25:31

You love them. You feel like we live in a society that like by and large lacks courage, doesn't demonstrate it.

SPEAKER_01 25:39

Um yes, that would be that would be that would be correct. I think people float along and and and and people just you know, my wife says I overthink everything. So, you know, maybe I'm this is this is maybe where being I'm abnormal, and if you take my earlier comment, I'm now being inconsistent. But I think that if people would were thoughtful, uh were more thoughtful about what they did, I think we'd get much, you know, we'd be much more welcome. And it would it takes some energy and courage to be decisive on that as opposed to just being you know boats that float without rudders and sails and oars.

SPEAKER_05 26:09

I agree, I agree with you, Joe. It's what I see around me all the time. Why do we do that as a society? I mean, I don't know if I want to associate myself with that group, but I don't want to be elitist either.

SPEAKER_02 26:20

But yeah, no, I hear you. I don't that's my concern. I don't want to come up like I'm you know a uh all-knowing or superior in any way.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

Um I I think we have a society where there are um quite frankly um less consequences to being rudderless, orless, and sailless. Uh the the the the we are um accepting, forgive, you know, uh and forgiving, and uh uh I use the word safety net. We've created safety nets and excuses for a lot of people to to do um to make bad decisions. And so that the the level of the level of consequence for being indecisive is uh incre you know in increasingly diminished. And the reward for being decisive is being increasingly um, I I think it's maybe maybe it's not the benefits are, but the but the costs of being decisive. I mean, who do we criticize publicly as people who are decisive?

unknown 27:18

Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

You know, I I you know I we no matter who you know um on any either side of the political aisle, and on any either side of any issue, the more but the more firm they are on their opinion, the more critical we become of them.

SPEAKER_05 27:33

That's absolutely right. So we're we're we're just about taking our comfort and wanting to walk around uncriticized, unnoticed, placated.

SPEAKER_01 27:46

Blend in, live our life, you know, get our in a you know, you know, I'll call it, you know, there's a little bit of an element of short-sightedness in there. Um, you know, I think the instantaneous gratification, um, you know, it's it's it's easier to just go with the flow and let the the the immediacy provide um the reward. Uh because again, the con the negative consequences generally aren't there. I mean, I and there's a there's a there's so many, there's so many examples. And I and I'm you know you try to remain apolitical because I don't think it's uh I don't think any political position has the answer on this. Um but um yeah, that's that's my take.

SPEAKER_05 28:21

Yeah, I uh well I've I've used this quote probably the last three interviews that I've done, so people are getting sick of it. But I really want to know your mind around this because of what you just said. C.S. Lewis says most people have no idea what they're capable of, and most people won't get to it unless they absolutely have to. It's a it's it's a similar theme as people say, you know, uh the graveyard is the most valuable real estate in the world because all those dreams and potential and everything is buried there, things that didn't happen that could have happened. And I and I do think that that that is a human tragedy that people walk around with the music still inside them, as the poet says, without doing it. Do you agree with that that quote?

SPEAKER_01 29:05

Um absolutely. I mean, I I uh and I'm well I don't have it in front of me, but when I eulogized my dad, I I was raised by him, and and it was it was sort of a you know uh what's more useless, undiscovered potential or unused potential. I mean it doesn't matter. It was it it went away. Um and and so you know, I mean I and I I think of another conversation I had with someone, you know, again, it was a someone from what I would call the other side of the aisle with me, and I said, let's take a step back and recognize that my I think we share one opinion, and that is that the purpose of the educational system in our in our country is to um each help each uh child maximize the likelihood that they will fulfill their potential. And so Amen. You know, the the the gap that we have um in you know, I think we're having I think I guess the point is, I think we have a growing gap between potential and what what is actually fulfilled in our country. I think that's a different way of saying what what Joe, that's a great that's a great way to put it.

SPEAKER_05 30:04

I hadn't thought of it that way, but that's it's a growing gap between between that.

SPEAKER_01 30:09

You know, um as the consequences of not fulfilling your potential have gone uh uh have have gone down, and the reward for fulfilling your potential um relative to the consequence of fulfilling your potential um uh not in that basis have gone down.

SPEAKER_05 30:26

Yeah, yeah, totally. I've as a Christian, I recognize the the life that Christ modeled for all of us, and when he's on the cross, he he prays and he says, Father, I've done everything that you sent me here to do. Everything. He didn't do everything in the world that there was to be done, but he did what his assignment was, what he was sent to do, and as a result, he lived the perfect life. And that's something that that haunts me, Joe, is that I want to make sure that I do everything that God sent me here to do. And that's what you're talking about right there. And I think it takes courage to come into that fulfillment when you're buffeting up against a society that says, hey, shut up and sit down and I believe different and screaming and yelling and all that sort of thing, right?

SPEAKER_01 31:11

Yeah, it's like the purpose-driven life. I mean, I, you know, the the first thing is to recognize that you have a purpose. The second thing is to discover what that purpose is, and the third step is to fulfill that purpose to the best of your ability. And I don't I think we've I think we have unfortunately um a lot of people who uh haven't even decided there was a purpose to their life. They're they're, you know, I think it was it, the band Kansas, they're they're dust in the wind, you know, um, and they haven't even they haven't even recognized their dust in the wind. But there's two parts of that, you know, I recognize I'm dust in the wind, so I got a short window in which to fulfill that purpose. That's my that's how I look at dust in the wind. Whereas a whole lot of people say, yeah, dust in the wind, so what does it matter? I don't even need to find my purpose.

SPEAKER_05 31:51

Right. That's yeah, and that's a tragedy. That's a sad thing. Because we're sent here.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

And I think that's what and then God put God put us on it here, you know, for a purpose. And the moment we don't even recognize that he did, or even begin to explore the possibilities of what that purpose is, uh it's it's it's tragic.

SPEAKER_05 32:10

And we're all sent as a blessing, Joe. There's some I don't know how it relates, you know. I mean, that's outside of my pay grade, but God knows there's somebody in Istanbul that needs to come into the fullness of who God made him to be so that the world all gets better and somehow all benefit from it, you know, and that goes for every every one of us. Um deep end, Joe. This is why I love you so much. Wow. Uh who represents courage to you? Knowing how you approach the concept of courage, uh, do you have a couple of people that when somebody says that's a courageous person, somebody that comes to mind?

SPEAKER_01 32:48

I don't have an individual necessarily, but again, I I I my first my first two spots that I go to are the you know, the the folks, the first responders rushing into you know a burning building, you know, in 9-11. And again, that's a that's that's burned into my memory. Uh, and then I think everyone who serves in the armed services uh has put uh themselves uh they've put they've put the values of our country above the value of their life. And uh I can think of you know no two groups that are more courageous than than than those. Amen.

SPEAKER_05 33:21

Well put. Um okay. Well, I can't I I'm excited to ask you this question. Joe Slavins, what's the most courageous thing you've ever done?

SPEAKER_02 33:31

You know, I struggle with this because you previewed this question.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

I mean when you struggle with the thought that you're you spend your life, I I've engaged in no physical courage that I can think of. Um you know, I haven't put myself in in harm's way for the benefit of someone else. So there's no there's no you know list of physical courage that I can say I'm not a firefighter, I'm not I haven't served in the armed services. Um so I I I don't go there. And now I get to that whole, you know, uh times, you know, if you want to say making a decision, I make a lot of them. But um I I would say uh and and uh I I've really struggled. I I came up with two. Um I'll go with the one that you know best. And that is um the decision that I had to make to terminate the employment of my best friend. And the reason you know that is because I called you before I did it. Um and again, uh I will put that in an in an in both an emotional and in an intellectual sense, um, and that was weighing the benefits and the burdens of two different values, being the value of loyalty and friendship to the value of making the right business decision. Um and uh I again the the the non-courageous act, as we talked about earlier, would have been to do nothing, uh to ignore the fact that I needed to make a decision um and to you know sort of let it float on by. But that we all know that's a decision in and of itself because I I knew the situation that was unfolding. Um I made that decision, um, walked in, had the conversation, had the difficult conversation. Um and the blessing that came out of that, you know, was really uh threefold. Um the first one, uh and most important one was the the um continuation and increase in depth of the friendship rather than the loss of the friendship. Um the sort of you respect me enough to tell me the truth. Uh and I was and and he respected that. Uh the second is that he went on to a career that he loves and is, I would argue, you know, in every element of business more successful. It is both intellectually and emotionally, has been more fulfilling for him over the last 10 or 15 years than what he was doing or would have done working with me. And then the business won because um it was the right business decision. And so um, you know, I can I look back and I say, was that courageous? No, it was just discernment. But I'll again I I had the courage to at least confront and make the decision.

SPEAKER_05 36:14

That's a great example, and I absolutely recognize that as courage. And I'm so glad we unpacked the nuances of courage the way that we did before you gave that answer because it puts it into perfect perfect light. Um you've made other decisions like that.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

Yeah, I mean the other one I was the other example I'll give you is that um we we made this I made the decision to um sell the primary family business, Northwest Bank and Trust Company. And people have asked me if that was tough. And and and I, you know, I I I tell the very hopefully I can give you a short version of that and say, I I looked at our budget and you know, we had a strategic plan in 2020, five-year plan, good deal, everything's gone, you know, the way it that I you know wanted to do. I'm implemented, it's not an easy plan, but we're doing it. Um and uh 18 months later, I sit down and look at the numbers and I say, you know what, I'm a business person, not a banker. And being in banking and investing our capital in banking doesn't make any sense. Unfortunately, I was raised by a father who said, You never forget that you're a business person in banking, not a banker. And so I looked at it and said, This is not the right place for our capital moving forward. Now, roll forward, I you know, it took me three and a half years, you know, three, well, three years to get it done, almost three years. And uh, but I had a transaction that fell apart. Uh, we went to another transaction, and uh it was and it was an incredible transaction. I mean, people, guy fly flying in from Europe to buy the bank, you know. I mean, you're gonna make it the world headquarters for this, the fastest growing um, you know, uh new, you know, sort of new avant-garde new type of banking in the world. Um, you know, and and and you know, hire me and hire another member of my family and pay a great price. And and I mean, you know, I looked at my constituents, shareholder wins, I win, my employees win, my customers win, my community wins. This is gonna be awesome. Well, over the time period of negotiating things, it all all those benefits started falling off the table. And um, but you know, the pressure once you've signed certain documents, now it wasn't it was you know, the letters of intent, and you've spent six figures, and he's spent seven figures, I'm sure, on lead and on lawyers, and he's you know, I mean he's calling me from his private airplane, putting this, you know, putting his thumb on me. And um I uh had a board meeting called to approve the uh the agreements and the sale. And the night before I made the decision to say, I'm gonna go in and call this off. And I slept like a baby, went into the meeting, uh, investment bankers, the board, and everything's all there ready to, you know, to do what I ask them to do. And I said, um, we have a holding company and then the bank board had to act. And I said, folks, I'm sorry, I hope I didn't waste your time today, but I've made the decision that the holding company is not going to approve this, so there's no reason for you to have a vote. Uh, in my opinion, uh, what started out as a um a situation where you know we had everybody winning, I think has everybody either neutral or losing. And uh I I I I you know, even though you know the the there there's a whole bunch of people that have this momentum behind it, you know, lawyers and board members and senior management and you know, you some members of the community that are aware of what you're doing, um I said this transaction is contrary to my values. It wasn't there wasn't there wasn't any other than the other than the I call it the potential embarrassment of calling off something that you know looked like a really you know that you kind of bred to everybody else and sold as a really great deal, but it was a pig in the poke when it was all said and done. And um I made that decision. That's another one I guess I'm I'm rambling now for uh on you. But you know, I had to pick up the phone, call the guys, and it was what was what was great about the calls, I called the representative of the United States, uh the his primary lead in the United States, and I said, I just want to let you know I called the deal off today at the board meeting. And the uh what you know what really made my day that day, because there was a lot of pressure on that, but he said he said, I don't like it, but I get it.

unknown 40:08

I understand.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

So I was like, okay, you you know, if if if if the guy who's the primary representative of the international firm gets it, I guess it's not that big a deal that I call it off. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:20

Gosh, Joe, it's it's great. Framing framing the concept of courage more around values and that equal balance of IQ and EQ. See, that's what I hear, that's what I discern when I hear those two scenarios, the most courageous thing you've ever done, is the is the equal balance of IQ and EQ. It's the respect for other people, it's that kind of empathy, but also it's the intellectual wherewithal to understand that a decision needs to be made and not shying away from it. I mean, it's uh that that's a picture of courage. Now you mentioned several times already in this short interview, and I've known you a long time as we already established, so I've heard this before uh the the tremendous respect you have for your father. You and your dad had a amazing relationship. Is that where now I'm gonna start to blend values and courage? Is that where your values, is that where your courage came from, was framed from, or was that something that you had and it was just refined by the relationship? Talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

Oh no, I I I uh you know, um the in the I I shouldn't do this to an interview. The more interesting question is is, and maybe the way you're framing it is to say, is do you think it's environment or do you think it's genetics? Yes. Um and the answer is it's both. Um, you know, again, I you you it maybe it's hard to get a straight answer out of the lawyer. Um, but but but but the point of the story is I think much of this is woven into our DNA. Um, you know, and and and I I have you know, half my DNA comes from him. And that's not to say my mother's not an important role in this. I mean, she by no means live inconsistently with this, but um, but but but um you know I spent more time with my father, maybe, you know, as an adult uh than I did with my mother as an adult. And that's where it was refined. Um but no, I mean I our our our value structure um was again not only ingrained, but it was demonstrated when we were children, and then it was even more clearly demonstrated when when I was an adult working alongside or at the knee of my father. Um and so I and and and I I think this is how he would, you know, I I don't want to say I shouldn't say that. Um what I was gonna say is that you know I think he would answer these questions exactly the same way, but nobody really knows that. You know, I did I one of the mistakes that I didn't make, but I almost made was uh you remember when they had the bands to say, you know, WWJD, what would Jesus do? You know, when my dad died, I thought about giving out bands at the bank saying WWBD, what would Bob do? And and and the reality is is while we have a you know, I I think you know, I'm not trying to criticize the the what would Jesus do, folks, because I think we have guidance that is the Bible, um, you know, that that that allows us to understand the lesson of what you know Jesus would would have us do. We don't Bob didn't write a Bible. Um, you know, he he lived his life, there wasn't a book to go with, and I thought, you know, boy, don't ask what Bob would do, but decide what Bob's and your values are. Continue to communicate those consistent values and have people make decisions consistent with the values, because otherwise they're just gonna try and guess what Bob would do. And so I get a better answer by saying, What would your values be than by saying what would Bob do? And ultimately that's true because I don't think there's anybody, well, there's only one remaining employee in our organization. God bless her, she's been here 43 years. Um, there's only one employee left that even knew my dad. So asking her to continue, you know, to do that. And then the last thing is the world changes, you know, and so you you values don't, the world does. And so, you know, all the examples you end up having from Bob's life, you have to distill the value and then apply them to the new circumstances. Because if you say, What would Bob do? You don't know because the circumstances are different.

SPEAKER_05 44:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

Sorry if I wandered off on your name.

SPEAKER_05 44:09

No, no, no, you didn't. Um you're the patriarch now. So how do you perpetuate how do you perpetuate those values? How do you perpetuate that courage? I know your children, so I know what kind of qualities they have, and I can see that reflected from what I see in their mom and dad. But how do you how can you transfer that?

SPEAKER_01 44:38

Well again, I uh you know, hopefully some of it's in the DNA, hopefully some of it's done because you know they're um that we're lucky enough to have them all here, and they see it, they saw it demonstrated when you know they were children, they saw it you know demonstrated, they see it demonstrated today, I hope, because we you know we all live within 10 miles of each other and um spend a lot of time together. Um I have a um I have a TED talk that talks about legacy. I haven't done the TED talk yet, but there's five elements to a person's legacy, and one of the elements is that you've been able to um, you know, that your children live your excuse me, that your grandchildren live your values. Um it's because you know that they're not if you know, does it, you know, if your kids do and your grandchildren doesn't don't, does it did it matter? And so, and if you're and if your grandchildren do, they probably got a lot of that from their parents and from you now because it's pretty hard to transfer outside of that. Um, and and the reason I use that example is to is to point to say that it's really only a legacy if you transfer it through multiple generations. If it only goes, you know, my legacy is not my kids are not my legacy, it's uh my grandchildren that are. Uh and I'm not diminishing the importance of my children in that equation because they will play a huge role in that. But it's the idea bringing about the idea that values should be timeless. That's the that's the message I'm trying to communicate with that. And if I can't, if I can't do the kinds of things with my kids and then ultimately directly with my grandkids that have them living those values, then then my then those values are not my legacy.

SPEAKER_05 46:13

So you'd need to live your values to such an extent that they are anchored and they're sticky and they're so clear.

SPEAKER_01 46:20

And they're perpetual, and they're and they become perpetual. Now, people can get, you know, I mean, people wander off the you know, the reservation, you know, kind of kinds of stuff. And then that's but that's and that's what what we talked about earlier, you know, society. I mean, I you know, and I'm not, and I'm not here to glorify the you know the societies of the past because I think that you know there's some great things that happened and there's some you know lousy stuff that happened and and that sort of stuff, and we you know it's sort of the the human condition to um learn and then have to make the mistake again and relearn and we get better and we get worse and and that sort of thing. And we it we we either tend to over-criticize or undercriticize prior cultures and societies. Uh I'm a big, I'm a big advocate of of the Greek citizen. Um I you know, to me, the Greek citizen concept is one that says not only do I uh do I have rights as a citizen, I have obligations as a citizen. I think we've lost that. And whenever I see somebody who's exhibiting, you know, um that value of Greek citizenship, I like to applaud them, hold them up, lift them up, uh, you know, as a person of uh that we should, you know, model our behaviors after. Um yeah. I'm rambling on you again.

SPEAKER_05 47:30

No, this is fantastic, Joe. Um I'm thinking I'm thinking that's another another reason. Again, this is gonna turn into slobbering on you again. But the people that I respect the most, the people that I see the most that have that have a complete life, there's success there for sure. There necessarily has to be because they're effective, they're expressing their God-given gifts, and the and the universe around them responds. And so there's a certain amount of success. But part of that in the people that I really respect and look up to are people that have that generational kind of value system, to use your language. Those two things have to be there because I know people that are extremely successful and I wouldn't necessarily want what they have. Do you know what I mean? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 48:31

Absolutely. I mean, I I mean we all I mean I I think of two people that are by the time they were in their 60s or 70s, had no one to sit at the table with at Thanksgiving because they had they didn't have relationships with their children. A tragedy. But a tragedy. I mean, I mean, they had they had they had they had the financial means to do anything, yeah, these two individuals. But as far as I was concerned, they were they were impoverished because they didn't have the the ability that you know, they they hadn't built a relationship with their with their children, and therefore their grandchildren.

SPEAKER_05 49:00

Yeah. Oh, it's great. Now you're making me think because I'm I I had my little uh grandson, my second grandson, uh Lion James, was just born. What a name. L-I-O-N, that young man, I'm telling you, God's got a mandate for him, um, holding him in my arms just a couple of days ago. And and that feeling that you have is you want the whole world for those kids, and you want it in a value-based scenario. Believe the right things, hold true to the right things, do the right things, all that sort of thing. And I love how you've characterized those values with courage for us today. Um what's the next question? I was just on the tip of my tongue to go. And I lost it just for a second. So would you recommend to people if they're struggling with a decision that they're confronted with today, to wrestle more with their values, to discern what their values are, or to get counsel and just press on courageously through something? I mean, what kind of guidance would you give people that are struggling with big decisions right now?

SPEAKER_01 50:23

Well, I think, yeah, I I I think the first step is to um and and this this is a little circuit circuitous, is to say try and identify the simple way to say is is the reason they're struggling is because they don't have values or they haven't identified their values, or they think their values are at odds. Um and and you know, that that that becomes a preliminary question because if you don't have values, you can't have, you know, you that you've identified that you live by, then you you know, then I think the task at hand is to try and identify, okay, as at least situationally, what are the values that are in play here? And then once you've identified those values that are in play, you can then say, Well, gosh, my values say this is this is easy. This isn't courageous. This is easy because my values say I need to do this. Um, or they say, Boy, I do have a I do have a quandary here where my values are are at um odds with each other or apparent odds, you know, they may not actually be at odds, but they're at apparent odds, and I need to now not I've identified now. I have to make a choice based upon the relative evaluation of those values uh going forward. And so I it um and and and I you know again, so I so I think it is to probably intellectualize for a moment um the problem in the context of values. Really discern what your values are. What is it? Discern what your values are, and again, it because sometimes again, I think most of the time when when people are are wondering what to do, if they do that, the answer becomes just instantly crystal clear. Yeah. Um, you know, and and and so it's like, yeah, I I'm not that person. I'm not gonna do it, I'm gonna do this. Um it's it's a fairly rare situation when you when you uh you know when you have the you know values truly at odds with each other, but it it happens. It happens. So they have and if that does, you you have to make a decision then.

SPEAKER_05 52:13

So they have values that say I can no longer stand for the principles that this organization is demonstrating behind closed doors. I know that there's some some thievery going on here, I know that there's some mendacity, I know that there's some you know not truth telling going on back here, and I can't deal with this anymore. But then they go, but I need a paycheck and I need to keep going. How do you wrestle with that?

SPEAKER_01 52:40

Well, I think you have to, again, to me, the question you have to ask yourself is again the values, I I have an obligation to put food food on the table and feed my family, but am I am I spending my time at work, A, trying to have an impact on the organization to try and change it? I may or may not be in a position of change, you know, uh uh an instigator or leader of change. On the other side of that, saying, am I spending adequate time finding an organization that you will utilize my skill that shares my values? I mean, if you sit and just complain after recognizing it, you know, you you haven't done anything. But I mean it it it and and and if you are but if you are truly doing everything you can to either change the organization and find an organization that suits your right. I mean, I I I've yet to find a person who a person of value who can't find that other one. It may take them a while, yeah, but usu usually it's a question of effort. It's not a question of um, you know, does that does that does that or their organization or other opportunity exists? You know, I this may not be the right time, but this is the example I would give you is that I one of the reasons I was always comfortable in my own skin from a work standpoint, despite the fact that I went into a family business, is I made the decision very early on in my life that if everything went to hell out of handbaskets, I would join the military because I respect what they do and I respect their value structure. And I I could go there and they, you know, what's the old deal? I get three hots and a cot, and they would take, you know, they would take care of me and my family if I took care of them. And so I didn't have to, I never had to worry about having a job or being in a place that shared my values because I knew I always had a plan B that was going to be acceptable to me. Yeah. And I and I you know I'd argue that with the example you just gave, you know, that you just gave, you know, um, and maybe, you know, the values that I see the military, you know, exhibiting over a you know time are, you know, uh community above self, you know, uh it's about discipline, it's about hard work, uh, it's about self-improvement. Um, you know, it it there there there's a value structure there that when you really get down to the nuts and bolts of it is you know, how do you argue with those values um that that exist in the in the military and they'll pay you? So I don't think anybody can ever come to me and say, gosh, I can't leave my employer because I need a job. Well, if it you know get get out there and look for it, and if you can't find it, join the join the join the military.

unknown 54:58

Right.

SPEAKER_05 54:59

Some you could do. Okay, you and I, I'm I'm I'm coming close to wrapping up on you, Joe, but a couple more questions if you don't mind. I um you and I both agree that there is great power in fellowship, great power in forum. That's how you and I met it, surrounding yourself with really high-quality people. So, in in a lot of those uh relationships, interpersonal relationships and collectively as a as a forum group, there was a lot of help there at making difficult decisions. Was that about defining values, or was that just about encouraging people to recognize the obvious and get going? What do you think the value is in forum for people?

SPEAKER_01 55:45

Well, I uh uh I think there's a lot of values. I think one is is that um you're not alone. I think you know loneliness creates fog. Um and so you if you know if you're surrounded by people who you respect and share values, um, you can learn from uh similar decisions that they have made, the stories that they have told. They can help you refine your values and then apply them to the situation. Um but I but I I I'll go back to, yeah, um, and you know, again, if if you're uh even go so far as to say, you know, you you're with the right group of people, um, God put them there for a reason, uh, you know, if if you're being purposeful of it. And so that they in in in many ways with the right folks um represent another pathway to to listen to God. Um in terms of, you know, and you know, I yeah, the worst things that have happened in my life is when I have not listened to him. Um you know, there there were lots of people telling me and lots of things in the world telling me not to do something, and and um I I did it wasn't that I was I intentionally disobeyed or went in a different direction. I just wasn't listening. And so for him a lot is as a place where again, I I'd add on to my prior counsel repeating them, where you are in a by its nature listening. And and that, you know, that allows you to come to a much clearer conclusion, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_05 57:03

What the Bible says wise men seek counsel. So that's also Jeff talking to his friend, the lawyer.

SPEAKER_01 57:11

So Well, you know, as you know, the biggest problem that I that I have is I'm not the world, I'm I'm I'm not the world's greatest listener, Jeff. And I've I I recognize that weakness, and I have to um work on it. Um and that was one of the things that Forum helped me do is it helped me work on my listening skills. Um and I'm still it's still my greatest weakness. Um again, my uncle had a saying, it was that your strength is your weakness. And so my ability to frame a problem, answer the problem, and go forward um leaves me telling you what the answer is before I've listened. Um and I maybe, you know, even if I'm right, it doesn't uh it doesn't hurt to listen. And and if I listen, I might adjust and andor been wrong and can course correct along the way. So I'm I'm working on that still at age 62. You and me both, brother.

SPEAKER_05 58:02

You and me both. Um maybe this is a little the final question I promise. Maybe this is a little bit out of left field, but uh I want to ask something like you reframe the question for me, Joe. It'll be it'll be better. Is artificial intelligence causing us to lose our values? Does artificial intelligence help us become less courageous, more courageous? How is this world that we live in affecting the fullness of which God created us to be? Because it's a big it's a big topic and it's absolutely everywhere, and I don't know something that's had this kind of impact in my lifetime that I can point to.

SPEAKER_01 58:48

Yeah, no, I uh well I think we yeah, uh my only argument would be I think the internet had uh a similar impact, but but we it's become so ubiquitous that um that that we sort of like take it for granted now, and now this is the next thing. And again, and we had them in the past, you know, you had the and and maybe you know we had we had the steam engine and you know the invention of the car and the telephone electricity, and you know, there's a lot of things that have been um monumentally changing, but but the uh but yeah, our artificial intelligence, and I guess that tells you the artificial intelligence piece, um, you know, uh I go back to my earlier statement about is it easy not to define your values and um and and think about them? And I think that that's the danger of all advancements that take place is that they make it easier not to um identify, establish, and discern your values because we have a place to go for an answer. And we go there and we ask the question, and we don't know what the values of our of that artificial intelligence are. I mean, at best, at best, they're benign. Well, maybe that's you know, I mean, I we but but at worst they were programmed, you know, to by someone. Um and maybe even worse, I don't know. I mean, I I used to love mob, you know, I used to love um you know, reading the reviews, if you will, and thinking that mob intelligence on like product ratings and stuff was pretty cool. Now everybody's game that system, in my opinion, so you can't really use that. Yeah, but you know, if I'm right and you and I are scarily, you know, concerned about where society's at, if artificial intelligence is just playing back to us what it's being fed by the masses, and again, that sounds elitist, and I don't want it to sound, but but if it's people who aren't thinking about values, it's not going to reflect values coming back at us. Yeah. Um, and so it re you know, it's it's gonna reinforce, you know, so it's gonna reinforce the good and it's gonna reinforce the bad. Um, I do have, you know, I uh maybe you didn't ask this question, but I mean I I'll I'll I'll I'll finish this. I have a very dystopian view of the future. Um when you combine a lack of identification of values with artificial intelligence, which replicates intellectual capacity. Um and you have robotics coming down the line where you know a lot of people are doing um things that require the use of you know their arms, their hands, that sort of stuff. I have I have a dystopian view that that we have a that you know that some of these futuristically movies, if you will, have a real high risk of occurring because people with capital are gonna have to protect that capital, and they're the ones who are gonna you know have the money. And the people who are um valueless, intellectually, you know, less um capable uh and don't have any capital are going to be the masses that simply need to be fed. And I don't mean that fed just in the sense of food, I mean it in the sense of purpose. And uh we've all seen what the sound bites and social media and how we can be manipulated. Yeah, and so it's it it's a tool that can be used for great good, but it is a tool that can be used for for um great evil, uh uh either intentionally or unintentionally.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:57

The delta in a couple of different areas could get even greater and greater and greater at separation.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:04

Yeah, exactly. And so, yeah, no, it's it's uh and so it takes, you know. I mean, I I I I think the the biggest issue that I would comment on as I is I think that we are um we need more leadership in this country, we need more leadership in this world that are values-based leaders. Uh and uh and and that's you know, that's the solution to the problem uh that's out there, but but candidly, we're not particularly well suited to uh identifying and and lifting up those people at this moment.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:36

Yeah, that's a good that's a good point. And then when you do find people that are value-based leaders, they'll stick out like a sore thumb. So people will throw rocks and sticks at them.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:45

So expecting because um uh what's what's the term? Values become translated to phobic. You know, because you when you have a value and you take a stand, you're phobic of the opposite. Yeah. Um and it takes you know, I I will I guess I guess the point is you want to talk about courage, it will take great courage for people of value to to assume leadership roles um in the country. And you can't do that. Because it will it will, you know, it will it will be it will come with a A, they may not be successful, and B, it will come with a great personal price.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:17

Yeah. And you've certainly done that with the leadership that I've seen you exhibit, Joe, in your fiefdom. And you've been a blessing to me, and I love you so much, and you are a man of great courage. Joe Slavins, thank you so much for taking time with us today.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:33

Thank you, Jeff, for uh your friendship and uh what you need to me in my life, and for you putting forth this this uh this discussion.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:44

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