Coaching in Conversation

Mastery Series: Inputs, Throughputs, and Outputs with Dr. Sam Humphrey

• Tracy Sinclair • Episode 22

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Dr. Sam Humphrey has coached international business leaders, partners and teams since 1996. Prior to achieving her Doctorate in Coaching Supervision in 2022, Dr. Sam held positions including faculty member at Meyler Campbell, editorial board member for the Coaching at Work Magazine and Global Head of Coaching at Unilever. An award-winning author, Dr. Sam published her book, Coaching Stories, co-authored with Karen Dean and published by Routledge Worldwide, in 2019. The book went on to achieve international success and has borne an equally successful podcast, cementing her vast international network that now includes C-suite executives, managing partners, international business leaders and even NBA all-stars.

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Hello, my name is Tracy Sinclair and welcome to Coaching in Conversation, the Mastery Series. This series of conversations explores how to create a conversation that is engaging, The concept of mastery in coaching, and I have the great pleasure of talking with several ICF master certified coaches from around the world to understand what mastery really means to them, both as coaching practitioners and also as human beings. We explore many different perspectives and nuances of this topic, and I hope it is of use and interest to you as you continue to navigate your own journey. Hello again, and welcome to Coaching in Conversation, the Mastery Series this time with myself and Dr. Sam Humphrey. Sam is very highly qualified in the field of coaching. She has a doctorate in professional coaching supervision. She also has a Master's in Executive Coaching and is a Master Practitioner with the European Coaching and Mentoring Council, the EMCC. She also has a lot of industry experience in coaching, having worked amongst other roles as the Global Head of Coaching for Unilever. Sam is also an author and she has co authored a book with another amazing coach, Karen Dean, called Coaching Stories, which is a beautiful book around just what I think is the subtext of the book, the flowing and the falling of coaching. So those moments when coaching flows and the magic happens and then the falling when things don't go quite to plan, which is a really important piece of work to bring the reality of our coaching experience, the reality of what it is to be human and To be human as a coach. And the reality and realism is something that really comes out for me in my conversation with Sam. So I'm very much looking forward to you listening to this and hope you enjoy. And the title of this episode is Inputs, Throughputs and Outputs. So hello, Sam, it's really lovely to have you here talking with me today. And we're here as part of the Coaching in Conversation podcast, but this time the Mastery Series. Thank you for having me, Tracy. I'm, I'm delighted and honoured that you asked. Oh, it's a real pleasure. It's a real pleasure. And I'm looking forward to what you would like to share. And so maybe just to kick us off with the very simple question that I ask everyone, what does mastery mean? It's a big word, isn't it? A very big word. And I think, I think my answer would be different. depending on the stage in my coaching career that you would have asked me. So every stage, I think I would have had a different answer to that. And I think, I think it's easy to chunk it up as a word and think that it's a, a thing. It's a, it's a noun or a, a destination or an end point, which I know a lot of people talk about. And I think how I've I've more recently started to think about that word anyway, is to really try and chunk it down. Because there are points in our lives and our work and our career, I think, where I think some things are further ahead than others. So when I, I, The framework that I was given to work with when I first trained as a coach about 150 million years ago was so I trained through iCoach Academy and I was blessed at the time with the faculty that we had because it was some of the real pioneers of coaching as we know it today. So people like Mike van Oudshorn, Caroline Horner. Bruce Peltier, Ernesto Spinelli. I mean, you know, that that's all my name drops for the moment. You know, real, they're real stars and pioneers of, of coaching at that time. And the framework that we were encouraged to think about was and has lasted me for, you know, the 25 years I've been, been doing this, is to think about yourself as a coach through Three separate columns. So there's your inputs, your throughputs and your outputs. So your inputs make up everything that you are, how you show up. It's your values, your beliefs, your experience. It's everything about you. How you hold yourself, how you speak all of that. Throughputs is how you want to coach. So it's sort of the plonky bits. You know, are you going to use psychometrics? What tools, techniques, frameworks? What's your underpinning? And then some of the really plonky things like, well, how long are you going to have a session for? How much are you going to charge for it? So it's everything to do with how you coach. And then the outputs is about, well, what's the purpose of your coaching? And often that's an interesting place to start. You know, what's, is there a population that you're serving? So are you looking at high potentials, leaders? Is it life coaching you're doing? Is it about transition? Is it about maternity returners? You know, what's the purpose of, of your coaching? And we were always encouraged to, Continue to reflect on those three columns to help really inform the work you're doing, the CPD and supervision that you're getting, further training that you're taking on, all those sorts of things. And it's, you know, it has served, it's very simple, but incredibly potent. And the idea being that those need to be aligned in some way, or at least going in the same direction. So I can think of times when I've really early on was really focused on the throughputs bit, you know, so you become magpie like, and you want to acquire as many tools and techniques and I've got to get FIRO B trained and I've got to get MBTI trained and all this stuff. And really thinking about how much do I charge and how do I do business development and all those sorts of things. Then, so at that point, I would have thought mastery was very much about. How you coach. Then as you know, you get more experience you start to pay attention to some other things. So I probably fell into the purpose of my coaching to start with, but then started to think more deeply about it. And what are the topics that I want to coach or not, as the case may be? That's a more interesting point to come to. You know, what, what, what's the population that I want to work with? And that's changed hugely as well. You know, I'm, I'm of an age now where a lot of my clients, I'm old enough to be their mother. Well, that presents a different dynamic to when I was, you know, a coach 25 years ago. So starting to pay attention to, to how that sits and then your inputs, you know, what work are you doing on yourself? And I remember one stage in my career, I was adamant, I kept telling everybody, I'm not a therapist. And then I thought, well, how do I know I'm not doing therapeutic work? I've never been in therapy. So that was my personal development that year, was to go into therapy so that I could very authentically, incredibly say, I don't do therapeutic work because I actually know what that involves. So that's what I did. A long answer to a fairly straightforward question, Tracy, but I think it's constantly evolving what mastery means because I look at it through those three columns and I'm constantly making adjustments. Wow, I love that. I've not heard of that three pillared model before. It's so simple and yet so comprehensive, actually. What a lovely way to think about it. It really strikes me how, when we first start on our journey, the throughputs would be You know, an obvious place to go. There's a desire to understand how do I do this? Yes. What do I need to do? And how do I, how do I do it? And yet the deeper element is in those inputs and outputs, perhaps. I mean, that's where I'm experiencing it in a way. That's my judgment, I guess, coming in. But there's my interest now where I'm at in my development is all the inputs and the outputs. Are really fascinating. And I think, you know, that's very natural that of course you want to be competent and the easiest way to demonstrate competence is in your actions and what you're doing and the results you're achieving. I think to the bots will take that over at some point because it's all about competency and how you do stuff. So we'll be able to program AI to, you know, to do that type of straightforward competency based coaching. But I, I think as well, as you know, when my colleague Karen Dean and I wrote, wrote our book, one of the reasons we wrote it was that There were so many books that are all about how to do coaching, but actually there was nothing out there about what it's like to be a coach. And so, so I think that's an interesting shift in balance as you develop your capability as a coach. Yeah. That you become far more aware of how you're being as a coach, not just what you're doing. And that, you know, I still I'm interested in new techniques and tools and, and still, you know, I'm curious around learning some of those. So it's not that I don't give any attention to my throughputs. Of course I do. But I think, you know, a lot more attention I give as I gather more experience to those inputs and outputs. Gosh, I'm hesitating now because my brain is firing off probably 19 different directions we could take here. But there's two things really resonating with me. One is this idea of the difference in the balance between the doing and the being, which I have to just put out there because it's something I'm deeply passionate about at the moment. So just wanting to really, you know, underline what you just said there around that. But I can't resist exploring a little bit with you, if I could, because you've put the bots on the table. You know, as you, I feel quite rightly, have shared. The bots can take care of a fair chunk of throughputs in terms of transactions, models, techniques, processes, you know, the basics, the transactional element of coaching, and we know that this in some cases is quite alarming to the coaching community, worrying about the future of their work, the future of their relevance, et cetera, et cetera. What is your perspective on that, given that we're talking about mastery as a context today, what is your perspective on that? So I, I, I probably have a, a slightly provocative thought about it. So I think it's great because I think what it will do is it will sort the wheat out from the chaff. So it's, coaching is a very crowded market. It is a very, very crowded market. And I think that what the bots will potentially enable is that only those people who really, truly want to progress their capability, they're going to have to work harder now, because if a machine can do it, that's going to take away a whole chunk of work for a lot of people. So I think what we might then see is less ineffective or Not value adding enough coaching. So, you know, I grew up in, in business, Tracy. That's, you know, my, I'm very clear that the coaching work that I do is, it's a commercial venture for a commercial reason in business. And that's not to say I have any issue with how other people do their coaching. You know, you be you and I'll, I'll be me. My, my coaching business is about adding serious value to businesses. And to individuals. So and that's heavily rooted in, you know, my, my early career and, and being dragged through various manufacturing and FMCG organizations. That's what business was there for. So I, I think it will improve a lot of the coaching that it will continue to exist in the market because it will drive out those who are. neither willing, capable or prepared to put the work in to get beyond the stage that the boats are at. And yeah, so it will take, take away that chunk of work. So that's, that's kind of my perspective on it at the moment, I think. I mean, we still have lots of people doing jobs that the bots do or, or machines do elsewhere. And you're absolutely right. They add something else, but that skill or capability comes with experience and continued learning and reflection and all those lovely good things that do take them beyond the capability of the machine. So that's, that's kind of where I'm at with it at the moment, I think. Thank you for sharing that. And I guess. You know, I'm probably in a very, very similar place to you in that I believe that the bots and other forms of AI will take a whole swathe of what could be called coaching interactions between people and amongst people. And then there's something else that the human being brings. And it's that something else that we need to nurture, isn't it? Is we, we need to. We need to bring, I guess, in some ways, my perspective is, is, is the humanity of who am I as a human being that adds value here? So what, what are your thoughts? And if, if a, if a coach is listening to this, which hopefully they are saying, okay, well, that all sounds very logical. I get that. I buy into that. But how do I, how do I do that? How do I, how do I, I guess, what is the difference that makes the difference? So I, I, I guess it is, it is flying hours really. It's a, it's about focused attention and practice. Whenever, and you'll know this from your experience, Tracy, when, when you train people to coach, the basics of the content, it's not difficult. You don't need to be a complete genius to understand the very basic coaching model by any stretch. And, you know, if, as long as you can ask some open questions and do some reflection back, you know, it's not, it's not intellectually. On the face of it, a difficult thing to do. And I think it's, it's what continues and sits behind it. And that you add to that that makes the difference. So I, I also think we underestimate at times our clients and in terms of what they bring. So you'll know as well as I do that coaching originally was very much focused on remedial activity. You know, coaching was seen almost as a punishment when it first became popular 25, 30 years ago. And whereas nowadays coaching is much more seen about sort of good to great. It's about, you know, being additive to, to somebody to reach their full potential, et cetera, et cetera. And I mean, I would say in my experience. 65 percent of what my clients bring to coaching, they would achieve anyway. They're highly motivated, high achievers, most of them. They have an awareness of what it is they want to do, where they want to get to. The reality is, I would say that They'd get there anyway. Now that's not to say that the coaching doesn't add something. Of course it does. It might help them get there more effectively or faster to a higher standard or with more confidence. So the coaching absolutely does add something. The bit I'm always interested in is the 35%, the stuff that they don't know they don't know, and I don't know either, you know, so if you're going to achieve all of this anyway, what else could you achieve that you're not really thinking about that would be the real value add in, in this? And I'm, I'm not, I'm not, I don't always get there with clients, not by a long shot. You know, with many, we just, we'll get to the 65 percent and we'll do it well and that's great. When I do get into the 35 percent with clients, that's when I think the real magic happens. That's when the real magic happens. And I clearly don't have a formula for that because I'm not able to shake my magic coaching dust on every client and, and for us to get into that space. So I'm not sure the bots will beat me to it there yet. But that's, that's sort of the focus of my attention. And in that is, I'm not on my own in that, you know, coaching's a joint endeavour. It's two people. And I think we've started to forget what role and responsibilities and impact our clients have. in a successful coaching assignment. So I think, you know, if I look over my 25 year history, that's one of the things that I think has shifted quite significantly is the emphasis for the coach to add value as opposed to client. Gosh, I love that. And, you know, I guess what comes to my mind there when you say that, Sam, is this idea of true partnership. And how, you know, again, in coach training, partnership is a term that's kind of banded around, isn't it? We partner with our clients. And yet, do we really understand what that means? Because as you're saying early on in our role, we could think the partnering means it's more about what I, how I add value, whereas actually over time, it's going the other way. And if anything is more about the client, even than, than us. I think that this is a topic that I'm having some conversations with somebody else. I think that, you know, well, Claire Norman and, and I'm contributing some writing to a book that she's doing on this because I think I, I notice, and for relatively new coaches, I think this is a tough gig. I notice now that the first time coaching has ever really been talked about with clients is at a chemistry meeting. So I can find myself. First of all, having potentially to do a bit of a teaching about what coaching even is. Digging around to check whether or not there is actually a coaching goal here and that coaching is the right intervention. Then I've also got to make sure that they are up for it. You know, are they coachable? Are they in a good space to actually get value from the coaching and put the effort in that's required to get the value out of it? And I've got to sell myself in a competitive way because I know this person is seeing other coaches. And I, I, you know, have reached a stage where if those things happen and at the end of it I think, well this isn't going to sell. I just don't, you know, either there isn't a coaching goal or actually coaching is not the right intervention. Or if the client really doesn't seem to be up for coaching I'll call it. But I know 15, 20 years ago, Sam, would she have called it? I think I would have been too frightened to call it actually. I would be, I would have been seriously concerned about the implications and consequences on me and the client if I was to say, I don't think this, this is going to go. So Again, I think that's a shift in how things have moved over time in terms of coaching. Because we, you know, many organizations really don't screen clients very well. You know, is this, is coaching the right intervention? What's the purpose of the coaching? Are they up for it? Is this the best time for them to have this coaching? I can count the number of times on one hand that I've been screened as a coach. You know, I don't get assessed and I appreciate that, you know, having accreditation and all the, the bells and whistles that go with different qualifications means something, but it doesn't mean everything. And you know, so I'm interested in that as well. So I think, you know, this shift we're probably means that we are not Ensuring we get the value out of coaching that perhaps we should. And that's something I feel really passionately about, you know, so my business is built on the grit coaching value chain, which is all about ensuring you get every ounce of value out of every stage of the intervention, not just the coaching itself. You're really making me think here. There's a couple of things, Sam, in there that one is you know, if we go back to our ongoing maturity or mastery or in this space, whatever that means for us, there's something about. Our, our capacity and our confidence to challenge, to call out, to push back, to say no, when actually coaching isn't the right thing. So there's something about mastering the ability to notice those things, knowing how to explore those things and having that confidence and bravery. To, to really start adding value right from the beginning by saying, no, you know, if something, if something's not necessarily conducive to a great partnership, the, the other thing though, that's really coming up for me, and maybe, maybe I'm being contentious here with this comment is that I personally worry about this aspect with the commoditization of coaching that we see now, you know, even though coaching, it's, it's wonderful that coaching. Is becoming more mainstream, is becoming more accessible to more people and, and, you know, there's a, perhaps an element of democratization within that. There's some positives within all of that, that growth and expansion. And. I find that because coaching from an organizational perspective particularly is, is quite a commodity now, it strikes me that perhaps the capacity for that understanding of coaching and whether coaching really is suitable. Is being cut short? Mm. Do I mean, do you, do you agree or do you have a different experience with that? No, no, I do, I do agree. There was, and I think that's been the case for quite a while actually, Tracy, so, so can Karen and I wrote an article a long time ago called, is a Coaching Culture An Alternative Tyranny? And you know, it was, that was very deliberate because you know, every single people. topic, it would seem coaching was the answer to it. Whether that's, you know, an external coach or an internal coach or a coaching manager, you know, and, and I am one of the biggest advocates of coaching around, you know, I, I love, I love the whole topic. I'm a complete coaching geek. However, not everybody is. Coachable 24 7. I know I'm not, not every topic is coachable, or at least that's not always the most appropriate or effective intervention. So I think we, you know, we did go through a bit of a euphoria with, with coaching and I had a, you know, to the case in point, a conversation with one client and they, they wanted to look at how they could do. poor performance management through coaching. And I can see that, but basically the premise of that was, well, cause we don't want our line managers don't really want to get into a conflict situation of telling people what to do. So in those instances, there's a little bit of, well, has the baby been thrown out with the bath water here? Yeah, coaching absolutely has a place in it. Every business, it absolutely does. However, let's not sleepwalk into using it for anything and everything. So, so I agree. I do agree with you, Tracy. I think that advantages of the commoditization and democracy, I can't say that word, it being democratic means that people do have more access to it, which is fantastic. And I think what's happening is you can see that it's, it's getting even more and more. I'm showing you with my hands, which is not very useful on a podcast, is it? But we are finding more uses for coaching, more ways in which it can live and breathe and work. And perhaps we're not putting enough context around some of that or some understanding around it because I would be prepared to bet a substantial amount of money that if I watched you coach a client it just wouldn't look anything like the same as a line manager having a coaching conversation with their Employee or team member. So, is it right that we're calling those things the same thing? Do they need different conditions around them? I don't know. That's a big, that's a big question, I think. But I don't think the professional bodies can cover all of it. Yeah, there's something else that's just been lingering in my mind. I'd love to invite us back to, if I may, and it's just, just grounding us back into this idea of mastery. And when you talked about the 65 or the 35%, and obviously how, you know, the magic, I think you said happens when you can enter the 35%, and you said something about it doesn't happen all the time, you don't always get there. So this, this idea of. mastery, again, whatever, however we interpret that being transient, fluid, you know, not always present, not fixed. That this isn't the first time that's kind of come up. So I'd love to just. Come back and open that up a little bit, because one of the things you also said at the beginning is how sometimes we can feel that coaching is a, the mastery is a destination. And, and yet, there's a challenge to that isn't there. So, would you like to just say a little bit more about the transience or the fluidity I'm conscious they're my words there but just, just that piece. Yeah, so I think. In the, in the book, as you know, Karen and I wrote stories about when we were flowing as coaches. So absolutely knocking it out of the park. It was brilliant at different stages on the way to mastery, if you like, as well as stories about the complete epic fails, you know, where there was an utter car crash and they still happen now. You know, I still have sessions where I'll knock things out of the park and go, Oh God, that was brilliant. That was a brilliant session. And there'll be times when it's an absolute car crash and it goes hideously wrong. It never ceases to amaze, you know, amaze me in some ways that that happens. And I, I get really curious about how much does that happen in other professions then? You know, I don't believe for a minute it's just coaches that, that experience that. There must be, you know, every sort of profession or job you must have no matter how long you've been at it. There must be times when it still goes horribly wrong. And, and other times when you think you've just done it. You know, done a cracking job. So, I think being live to those is, is one of the things, which is of course where things like supervision sit. I'm always minded as well. Again, I use very simple things sometimes to, to apply to very complex topics, but the conscious competence model is, is always an interesting one to think about because you could argue very strongly that coaches should never reach unconscious competence, that you should always try and be in a state of conscious competence. Or as I can't tell the story, tell this without telling the story about a time I talked to a group about conscious incontinence, which was a completely different thing. However, it was hilarious. I always think of that when I talk about the conscious competence model. So I think There are times when we do dip into unconscious competence and that's probably quite dangerous. You know, I, I, when I supervise coaches, particularly novice coaches, they have such a heightened awareness of what they are doing. That, you know, you could argue they're even safer than some coaches who've been practicing for years and years and years because they're not taking anything for granted. You know, they want to make sure that they're doing everything well and appropriately and without harm etc. So, so I think that For me, the mastery thing is probably something related to how consciously aware you are and present and that you're not sleepwalking into something or drifting unconsciously into, into doing things, which is hard. Which is hard. You know, you, like I, Tracy, will have done hundreds of coaching sessions. And that's not to say that we necessarily will drift into them by any stretch, but there will be some that I do. There will be some that I do. I think also one of the other stories that I tell in the book is people's perception of you as a coach, the state that you are in. So it's the other person's perception. So A long time ago now, I had a, my horrible year was the year both my, my parents died in the same year and I, they had good deaths, as we say in Scotland, if you have a good death, that's a good thing. They both had good deaths. It was too soon. And it was very sad. Of course it was. However because they'd had good deaths, we went through the whole thing appropriately and got closure and all those good things. The number of people that would say to me, are you sure you should be working? You know, you, you maybe think you should take some time off and da da da. I found absolutely fascinating. And the reason it was fascinating was the happiest year of my life was when I got married. Nobody asked me then if I should be working. And my state of happiness was, you know, the, the parallel to my state of sadness, the year that my parents died. And they're both emotions with strong emotions. So that fascinates me as well about how other people's perception of your past. ability to be present is impacted or diluted or concentrated depending on, on other things. So, I mean, it's, yeah, we're all part of a massive, massive system, aren't we? And, and so testing some of those things I think is really interesting as well, but to your point around mastery, I, I think there's a huge connection to consciousness and, and presence. Yeah, yeah. Again, I'm hesitating because part of me just wants to say yes, I agree. I keep saying, keep wanting to say that to everything you're saying today, but that's absolutely been my experience of you know, I think there is a danger in unconscious anything in a way, especially when we're looking at being present with someone else. I can, I can see the relevance of having something that is feels so embedded within our body or our system that we're not thinking about it in that way all the time. I can understand that, but there is a, you know, the devil is in the complacency. I think when, when, you know, if that creeps in, I also love your story there about, you know, how the highs of emotions could take us the positives of life, the peak life. could also make us equally not present or not available for our clients as the so called loaves of life. And yes, there does, it really strikes me that there seems to be a bias, doesn't there, in how we, how we talk about this, as it has to be the bad things, whatever bad means for us, the bad things that could, you know, take us away from being present, whereas actually the exciting, positive things could also be exactly the same. Yes, and distort. It's the distorting effect, I think. Yeah. So, you know, it could impact your presence, but I think that certainly what I noticed from other people is they clearly thought that it was either going to take me away from being present, or it was going to massively distort my thinking. Which, which I, I'm sure it did impact my thinking in, in some way, but no differently to times when I've been happy or bored or whatever emotion I, you know, was relevant and prevalent at that time. Yeah, it just takes me to this point of be careful with assumptions, you know, as coaches, we're quite, quite interested in checking for assumptions, aren't we? The meaning that we give to certain terms or certain vocabulary. And you're highlighting for me, something there in ourselves of, are we assuming what, what a lack of presence actually could mean or be triggered by? You know, to just keep, and that's something to stay conscious about, so you're kind of coming back to that same thing. I'm, I'm mindful that we're probably coming towards, you know, a pause in our conversation for now. And as always, I could just keep talking to you all morning. If someone listening to this is thinking, okay, how do I How do I start to engage with my next step of, of development towards whatever mastery or being masterful means for them? Knowing that each of our journeys is very unique, but what, what would you, what would you say to those coaches out there listening that's maybe informed by your own experiences around just for us to just keep on this pathway of growth? I'd probably go back to what I said at the beginning about the three columns is to spend, spend some time looking at that and looking at, well, how full is each column and how aligned is it? So I remember working with one coach who was training to be a coach. And. We did some work around her values and beliefs and one thing that was very strong for her was about empowerment. You know, that was, it was really important to her and that was one of the the draws of coaching was that for her was that it's not about telling people what to do. It's Absolutely for her, empowering that individual and enabling them to, you know, find their true potential and be their best self and all those good things. When we looked at her throughputs, the way she coached was she would use a battery of psychometric data. tests and other psychological tests on them. So we had quite an interesting conversation then about, well, if you truly believe in empowering people you're doing these tests to them. So how does that sit? You know, what's, what do you see as being congruent or or not as the case may be in, in terms of your values and how you coach? And it just opened up a really interesting and different. conversation for her. And then think, thinking a lot as well, because this, my output has changed hugely over, over the years in terms of the purpose of my coaching. So I think really having some clarity, clarity around, around that as well. So giving yourself the time and space to think in a very informed way about what, what do you need next? I think one of the things I, I I notice with a lot of coaches is they don't have a framework to think about how they think about their development, if that makes sense. So obviously there's, you know, there's all the good stuff that sits within all the professional bodies around competencies, but that's not everything. It doesn't cover absolutely everything. And I'm not saying that inputs, throughputs, outputs covers everything, but it does bring something a bit different. And Really thinking about you as a much polar human being in the system that you are in and the work that you want to do, using that frame may well help you think about what you need to do next. And, and what might, what bit of that framework do you need to work on next? Which one is, The most depleted, which, which one is, is good for now, you know, where are the gaps where, what can you leverage from what you've already filled those different columns up with? Are you really utilizing everything that you've got? So I think, you know, as simple as it is, I do think it's very potent and it still serves me now, you know, and I still think about my development as a professional coach using that frame. Thank you. I love it. I think that's I've not heard about that model before and I absolutely love it. So I, I will I will do that myself as well as not inviting anyone else to do it. And as, as we come to a pause, then Sam, if we were to think about for you in terms of this ongoing pathway for you, what are the areas that are of interest to you now in terms of where, you know, where you're heading in your own development? Where, where, what's your, what's your path looking like? So I, I think I touched on this a little bit before. I, I, what I'm noticing is that I am at a stage now in my career where I think there is a population that I probably work best with and there are other populations where I think there are other coaches that might work better with with those populations. At the expense of being unwoke and sounding ageist, I think, you know, to put me in front of a 25 year old. I think there's probably better matches you could make in in terms of the work that would, that would be done there. I would bring something very different. I'm not devaluing what I could bring. But there are some things about connectedness, about relevance, about context, lived experiences, those sorts of things, I think, which I'm noticing are, are rearing. rearing their heads in some way. So the development for me is, is twofold. One is around so I'm building my business to deploy other coaches. So, you know, I run a coaching business with, you know a number of coaches from different countries and I'm loving that. I'm really enjoying, that does feel a bit passing the baton on a bit. And I'm loving that. It, it's also the development for me is around developing. Client relationships that are bigger and different. So working with clients, not just to buy me, but to buy, you know, the proposition that, that grit my business offers and the coaches that sit within that. So that's exciting for me because I am learning. a new and different skill set or expanding it and I'm really enjoying that and just thinking about how I build and grow my business as well in a sustainable way that sits with what's important to me in business. So I'm doing a lot more around different types of work with buying clients. I still, I mean, I, I hope I never have to give up coaching clients. I love, I love the work. I love the work, but I'm just being a little bit more thoughtful about where I can add the most value. So, so back, back to that underpinning thing around one of my strong values about my work is that it adds value. And so what I'm seeing are different places and that I can do that and, and trying to grow and develop into that. Thank you. It's such an important question to hold, isn't it? Where can I really add value, rather than where's my next piece of work? Yes. Of course, it's also sometimes important and very tempting, but where, where can I add most value? It's such a, there's a lot in that question. Yeah. I remember a long time ago I did a, a workshop with John Whittington, who does a lot of work around systemic coaching. And he made such a beautiful distinction between Being useful and being helpful. And talked about how being helpful can have a dark underside because it can be disempowering. If you think about the number of times that you've helped someone, you are invariably taking something away from them that's their responsibility. That's a very different action to being useful to somebody. And I love that distinction. I really, really do love that distinction. And you, you know, shamelessly have borrowed that from, from John on many occasions. And I want to be a useful coach, not a helpful one. Yeah. Wow. Well, thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure to talk with you and who knows, maybe we can do a round two and have another conversation at some point. But, but for now, Thank you so much and looking forward to catching up with you again soon. Thank you for having me, Tracey. I've really enjoyed, I always enjoy speaking with you. So thank you and good luck. Thank you. Likewise. You have been listening to Coaching in Conversation, the Mastery Series. A podcast that takes a look at mastery and coaching, what it is, what that means, how do we nurture or cultivate it, and many other interesting questions. You can hear more about coaching education and development at tracysinclair. com and follow us on social media. If you enjoyed this video, Please leave a rating and a review and also share it with your network to help us expand our reach. Thank you for listening and see you next time.

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Tracy Sinclair, MCC

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