Coaching in Conversation

Horses Don't Lie with Fay Manvell

• Tracy Sinclair • Season 1 • Episode 23

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Fay Manvell, MSc, PCC is an executive coach and dedicated advocate for personal and professional development. She is deeply passionate about empowering leaders to unlock their true potential through coaching, particularly executives in career transition and senior leaders on executive talent succession. Her desire is to support leaders in making decisions that are grounded in integrity, morality, and high ethical standing - for the good of their people, organisation, climate, and wider systems.

Since becoming an executive coach in 2015, Fay has immersed herself in ongoing professional development and deepening her expertise through achieving Professional Certified Coach (PCC) status, extensive coach training (including a three-year MSc in Coaching and Behavioural Change through Henley Business School), qualifying as a Coach Supervisor and Mentor Coach for the ICF, and completing Equine Facilitated Learning through Herd Institute in 2022.

Fay's passion for coaching and deep love for horses naturally led her to explore the profound and transformational effects of equine facilitated learning. Combining years of experience as a coach with the intuitive and empathetic nature of horses, she discovered how these magnificent animals can unlock deeper self-awareness and compassion in leaders. Her dissertation research, titled "Unbridled Compassion: Exploring the Effects of Equine Facilitated Learning on Enhancing Compassion in Leadership," delves into the transformative power of working with horses to foster compassionate leadership.

Fay is excited to share insights from this research and engage with fellow professionals who share a commitment to harnessing the power of horses in personal and leadership development. She looks forward to contributing to the ongoing conversation about the exceptional impact of Equine Facilitated Learning and its potential to shape compassionate, effective leaders.

You can connect with Fay on LinkedIn at Linkedin.com/in/faymanvell.

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Hello, my name is Tracy Sinclair. Welcome to Coaching in Conversation. Coaching in Conversation is a chance to discuss and explore, not just how we can keep developing and improving. Coaching in Conversation is a chance to discuss and explore, not just how we can keep developing and improving. Turing as coach practitioners, but also to consider how coaching is evolving and its future potential and place as a powerful vehicle for human development in today's and tomorrow's world. I'll be sharing some of my own thoughts on these topics, and we will also hear from some great guests from around the world who bring their unique experience and perspectives. Hello everyone, my name is My name is Tracy Sinclair and I am delighted to welcome you to another episode of Coaching in Conversation. This time I am welcoming my guest Faye Manvell and I am very, very excited to share this conversation with you. Not only because Faye is a deeply passionate coach she's a PCC coach with the International Coaching Federation. She also is very, very passionate about learning and has undertaken multiple trainings, not just in the field of coaching, but in the field of hypnotherapy, transactional analysis systemic coaching as well as the area of equine facilitation. And something that Faye really focused on when she was doing her Masters in Coaching and Behavioural Change. Where she chose to combine her knowledge and her understanding and her evolving work in the field of coaching with her understanding of working with horses. So this piece of work really combines two major passions for Faye, which is coaching and horses. She is a horse owner and a horse rider very actively, and she is coming to talk with me about how she is learning to work in partnership with horses in service of people's personal and professional growth, particularly in the space of leadership, whether it comes to leading others So I am very excited to share this conversation with you. And this episode is called Horses Don't Lie. Enjoy. Well, Faye, it's lovely to have this opportunity to talk with you. And we're going to talk about coaching of a fashion today. And we're going to talk about horses and leadership and facilitation and all sorts of other words. That hopefully somehow we'll pull together and make some sense of. Yeah. Yeah, somehow they're all connected. Somehow, aren't they? They're somehow all connected. But, but maybe just to to start it off, perhaps, Why don't you give us a little bit of background, perhaps, perhaps to yourself, but also how, why are we having this conversation about horses? Yeah, just kind of bring it, bring us all up to speed. Well, other than the fact that talking about coaching and about horses brings together two of my favourite topics, there is a reason for yeah, for having the conversation about the transformational benefit of human and horse interactions. So I suppose, should I start a little bit with, with me and how I found coaching with horses or any of the other language around, around that? Actually, I think what I want to say first is because there are a lot of There is a lot of language around coaching with horses equine facilitated learning, equine facilitated psychotherapy. So I suppose in the context of what I'm going to be talking about, it's, to simplify it a learning intervention that involves the participation of a horse. And relation to human development. So not, not about like the therapy side but about learning. So that's the similarity with coaching. So coaching being an intervention to aid someone's personal development and insights. And this also includes horses as well. Yeah, so my journey so I'm a coach also an avid horse lover and horse owner. Although perhaps she owns me more than I own her. More of a partnership. So it was quite a natural exploration into combining horses and coaching being two of the things that I really love. Some of the two things I love most in the world. I wouldn't say the two most things I love in the world, because my partner's next door. But yeah, Yeah, so what was I saying? Started with coaching and then exploring how that might work in partnership with, with horses. So my first training as a coach, I experienced the lady that was running the training, she also had horses and she talked about coaching with horses. And I didn't really understand the concept but it intrigued me. So Yeah, through exploration finding some really fascinating people that are doing this work regularly and really effectively, particularly in the leadership space. And most recently having completed my Masters in Coaching and Behaviour Change, I had an opportunity to explore research into an area. that I was fascinated in. So I chose three areas to combine. So one being compassion, one being leadership development, and one being the effects of equine facilitated learning or coaching. So yeah, last year I conducted some research into the effects of working in partnership with horses and how it can foster and enhance passion and leadership. So that was really fascinating. And leading up to that, I also trained as a equine facilitator, learning practitioner myself so that I could really experience it firsthand from the other side as. As a practitioner and also have experienced coaching with horses as well. So that's another thing that I feel quite strongly about when we're supporting other people's learning and insights, that we've also had those. experiences ourselves. Wow. I've got probably a thousand questions, but let's go with the one that's the top of my head is you talked about the partnership between, I guess, the human and the, and the horse. And we know in a traditional coaching model that there are two humans in partnership. So if there's a, if there's a human horse partnership, what, what is the role or the contribution that the horse. Makes or brings. Lovely. Yeah, so why the horse? Why the horse? Why not a dog or a cat? So horses are sentinel beings in terms of they can feel pain and experience emotions and also they respond to energy and other beings emotions. So what that means in terms of the coach partnership is that you benefit from having really non judgmental and instant feedback on how you are You are presenting yourself, whether or not you're aware of it, so they can pick up on those inner emotions that perhaps we might not be necessarily aware of, and also those energetic cues. Because a horse essentially wants to survive and stay alive, so they will respond with a flight by awe. or freeze to keep themselves safe. So what that means is that if you were to approach the horse with very high energy and perhaps the horse responds through flight and takes off across the field You may be, you may then question how you approach the horse. So from a leadership perspective, it, it can help to understand how you affect others and then also what that means for you in terms of having awareness about what's going on for you and managing, managing yourself, but also managing, your relationship with other people. Wow. Absolutely. So that's, that's really quite fantastic, isn't it? Of how we, so a very strong barometer almost that in the horse around the impact of me, my energy, my presence, my way of being and behaving. I'm getting instant feedback on how that is perceived by. By the horse, and therefore could be perceived by my team, or Exactly, exactly. Yeah, so it's taking those insights that you receive from the horse, and then translating that into, well, how does that work for me in relationship to others in work, or others in life. So, yeah, it's, it gives a really rich learning environment to Also, practice it's the experiential and the embodied learning, I think, that is particularly powerful in this, in this type of like, learning intervention because you've got the opportunity to immediately manage yourself and change something and get that response right. From the horse in relationship to those changes, which just isn't always possible in a work environment. So there's kind of two key elements to this that are coming up to me. One is, as we know, as coach practitioners, we're trying to invite our clients to step outside of themselves. and get a different perspective on something. I don't know, like stepping into the other person's shoes or stepping into the future and looking back or being in a helicopter, looking down, whatever it is to get different perspectives. So a powerful thing here is the horse is giving you a perspective. So it's another way of expanding your awareness, expanding your thinking on the topic or yourself. The other bit that's really interesting is the immediacy of it, isn't it? Is that in a way, regular coaching sessions are kind of offline. We're talking about something that's happened or might happen out there in the workplace or life. Whereas with the horse, it's actually, well, ultimately present. Because it's happening right now. Yeah, and I think that, that is really key in terms of the opportunity for it being so powerful. How often do we get immediate, transparent feedback on how our behaviours or how we're showing up affect other people? And the horse can, can really deliver that in a non judgmental, non biased way. Very clean. I was just smiling because I was thinking how easy it can be when we're talking about feedback we might get from another human being, how, how easy it can be to rationalize our own stance by saying, Oh, they've misunderstood me. You know, they've reacted like that because. They've misunderstood me and almost transferring the ownership of the response back out to the other person. Whereas we, it's hard to do that with a horse, I suppose, isn't it? Oh, the horse has just misunderstood me. Yeah. It's it doesn't feel as though we could quite get away with that rationalization quite so easy. So it's very, very clean, almost hard to kind of wriggle away from, perhaps. Yeah, because horses don't lie, and they also won't be thinking, Oh, well, maybe they're doing that because of X, Y, and Z. Yeah, yeah. So there's no filter, I suppose. Exactly. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. They don't, they don't necessarily, I mean, I'm sure a horse would like someone that they've got used to, you know, I'm sure your horse adores you as you do adore your horse, but I'm guessing that the horse is not going to filter to say, oh, I'm going to respond in this way because I like that human. They're, they're just going to respond. Is that, is that right? Yeah, they will just respond. Yeah. Yeah. And trust and safety is so important which is another parallel for the coaching space as well. So if the horse feels that they can trust and be safe with the human they will respond very differently to if they're in a place of fear. So it also kind of acts as a, as a mirror for like the internal, internal fear that could be going on for someone that perhaps they're not aware of. So if the horse does take flight across the field, for example, somebody might think, Oh, what, what's taking flight within me? What might I be holding onto that's fearful? Oh, interesting. So a little bit almost of the horse's response could be a symbol of my own response. So almost like a parallel process that could be a real mirror. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. There's another example that came to mind, but it's just left me. But yeah, the horse, the horse, The horse's response could be then causing the person to be thinking about what that means for them in their life. So not just, not just acting as a mirror, but that, that concept's coming to mind of what you see in others. Resides in yourself. Mm-Hmm.. So it kind of surfaces Mm-Hmm. Surfaces that, mm. So a little bit, like we say, our clients bring our own work to the table almost as well in a way that the horse brings our work to, to the field, if you like. If we are in a field with the horse. Yeah, that's so true as well because with this work, it's, it's recognized that the horse. The horse will surface the real work. So like in a coaching coaching session, you would work with a client to uncover goals and what the overall objective of the coaching work is going to be. And you would do that in the same way with a client. inviting the horse into the work. And also the expectations are the horse is probably going to surface what the actual real issue is. Interesting. Okay. Right. So because it's so clean and so immediate and so unfiltered, We cut through the mist quite quickly. Yeah. As we know in coaching, we get the presenting issues sometimes and then it can take a while, can't it, to surface what's really going on. It feels as though that could be quite rapid with. Yeah. Yeah, definitely can be. So, so whilst that's fantastic, that also just alerts me to a thing then about That could be quite jarring, couldn't it, for a human in the same way that we know when we've got human to human coaching, going very deep, very quickly, can, can be uncomfortable and potentially break rapport or, you know, challenge psychological safety, that kind of thing. So what, what are your thoughts around that with, with the horse human relationship? So the horse human relationship is obviously really key and also the practitioner involved. In managing that safe environment. And just like coaching, we wouldn't take the client anywhere that they aren't ready and willing and capable of going. So yeah, very strong boundaries and safety and trust for the individual. So yeah, it is being mindful that you can open. Not the practitioner, but the, the learning intervention itself could open doors that perhaps the client isn't ready to go into, but that's okay as well. So there's something about with the practitioner that's supporting the process, they're still holding a space there where there's boundaries and contracting, I imagine, and around what is and isn't discussed or explored. Yeah. But coming back and picking up then on this idea of psychological safety, because the horse is so In the moment and honest and unfiltered, I'm just testing out an assumption that's kind of formulating here is, is that I'm assuming that the. The greater the safety is between the two, the human and the horse, the better. And this is something that in human to human coaching is paramount for us, isn't it? We're seeking to create the conditions for great work to be done. And so, parts of our role is to try to create psychological safety or cultivate and nurture psychological safety for our client and ourselves in that work. So what do you, I'm guessing that if it's not there, the process doesn't flow so well in the same way that it wouldn't do with human to human work, and the course is going to give immediate feedback on that. What happens when that psychological safety really starts to come together. What, what do you notice then in the process? So it's an interesting one because psychological safety for different people, depending on their experiences with horses, could mean different things. So, for example, people coming coming to do the work where actually they've already got a fear of horses. You're starting from a completely different baseline to someone who maybe has had more regular interactions with horses and understands, understands more about the horse in general. And when you think about, you know, the size and the power of a horse, that can be really quite overwhelming for some people. So just the fact that they've turned up into that environment, and perhaps, you know, Proceed to become closer to the horse might be enough to kind of like bridge their psychological safety that that might be their boundary for psychological safety in that in that instance. So, I think that's something to like to be mindful as a practitioner as well, is. Meeting like the client where they are in relation to how they feel safe to work with the horse. But yeah, when it comes together and you've got the, the trust and safety both ways. So the human trust in the horse and the horse trust in human and that can be quite, quite magical and quite profound. Even like for people experiencing that connection with the horse. Maybe it's the first time or maybe they've had it before and how that makes them feel and that awareness of the impact that they've had on the horse in creating that connection is really powerful to then take away and reflect on in terms of like the human to human relationships that might exist. Yeah. Yeah. And, and. On a very practical level then, what's just been going through my mind there is, is kind of how does it work, you know, so you've got a horse, you've got a human and you've got a practitioner that's supporting the process. I'm guessing that there is then, after the horse human interaction, some level of debriefing and Extrapolating learning and insights or something like that. So help talk, talk me through what, if I was going to have one of these sessions, what happens? Yeah, so it's difficult one to give a complete answer on because like a coaching session, what happens could be really different depending on is needed from the client. But typically like the way it would work is there would be an understanding of a desired outcome from the client in terms of what they want to get out of the intervention with the horses. The horse's role is very much to surface and partner with client in deepening their, their self awareness and uncovering those insights. And the practitioners, they're one to kind of maintain the boundaries and also like the safety of the horse. All parties and also to share observations in what they're noticing. So it could be as the client approaches the horse, the horse might might respond in a certain way. Maybe the client hasn't noticed and the practitioner might share that they've noticed that the horse is swishing its tail or something. And what does that mean for the client? Have they noticed that the horse is swishing their tail? Does the client interpret that as frustration? And if so, is that frustration coming from the horse or is it coming from the client? So they're helping kind of uncover the insights without putting any attachment to what is happening. Wow. Interesting. Interesting. And are some, this sounds like an odd question to ask, but we're going to ask it anyway. I can't think of any more elegant way of saying it, but are some horses. Better for this than others or could any horse Well, that's a really interesting question. And there'd be arguments for it either way. So there'll be schools of thought that horses are horses and they can do the work. There'll be other schools of thoughts that horses who are more you know, like traditional, like, ridden horses might not be so. attuned to that type of work because they've modified their behavior somewhat to fit in with the human lifestyle that perhaps their responses aren't so typically horse like in comparison to horses that are living out in a herd and have limited human interaction. So yeah, it's an interesting one to consider, but also one that raises questions of like ethics as well in working with horses. Particularly if you are working with horses who are in like ridden work as well and have human, interaction, and then adding in the work to facilitate learning in humans that all could take mental strain on the horse and is still work. So how do we make sure that we safeguard horses and don't overexpose them to Too much humanness. Yeah, gosh, that's such a good point. I hadn't really thought about that, but absolutely. I mean, they're not it's not a circus, is it? You know, there's, there's really something here that's very much around the well being of the horse as well as the human. Yeah. Yeah. And the activities that we invite them to Participate in, and perhaps the horse doesn't fancy doing it that day. Yeah, I guess as you say, if a horse has emotions in the way that you're describing, they may feel more or less open to doing it, or more or less present that day. Because the horse is also in whatever state it's in. Yeah. Particular day. Yeah. So personally for me, I think the key would be like the horse's welfare. So not working with horses that had any pain anywhere. One, because that's not fair on the horse, and also then that could interfere with how they respond to humans. Also risking safety of the horse and the human. I do also feel that horses need, they just need time just to be horses. So. Even, you know, my horse has a couple of days off a week where she doesn't get interfered with and has time has her own downtime. She's not in coaching work yet, but maybe later on in retirement. And I think, yeah, they, they need to have. space from us to reset. Of course. Just like we would need space from each other to reset to. Of course, absolutely. And I'm, I'm also thinking then that, you know, a very, very young horse a foal almost is perhaps not, I mean I don't know, this is an assumption again you know, what is the What is the maturity or developmental level or age of a horse when it becomes most suitable for this, for this kind of partnership with a human? Yeah, so typically the horses that I've seen in this work have had some life experience and yeah, have interacted with other horses, so they know how to, they know how to horse, whereas Yarafol is still learning what it means to be a horse in a human world. So that definitely wouldn't be suitable. And You may or may not be able or want to answer this question. So I don't want to take you anywhere that doesn't feel right to go. But I'm just wondering if you have a personal story or an example of something if you've been coached yourself with a horse, if you like, or if you've experienced or witnessed that process any kind of, you know, tangible experience or example to, to just, you know, give a bit of detail to what, what's possible with this kind of work. Hmm. Yeah. So if I stick to my own stories, then I'm not contravening any anybody else's experiences. So I think it was one of the first, like, coaching sessions that I'd had with horses. And I said it like that because, because I'm with horses a lot of the time because of my hobby and pastime. And It is an environment where you can become like more aware of yourself. So there have been lots of learning experiences personally for me, just with my relationship with my horse which perhaps I'll come onto if we have time. But if I keep it to like a, a coaching purposeful session. One of the experiences I had was with a horse and we were in an arena kind of doing some, like, walking around and the horse was, was following me and we had that, that connection and the practitioner suggested That there was something going on in my life at that point where I was, it was feeling a bit challenging and something that I wanted to work, work through. So she suggested to have in the arena, there were some like obstacles, which metaphorically represented the areas in my life that I wanted to make some improvement with. Think there were four and the idea was that I carried walking with the horse but I guess energetically started associating those obstacles with what the life challenges were at that point. And there was one point where I think we had like a row of poles. So the idea was that we were just going to walk through the poles and the horse would follow. And as I was approaching this, I was thinking about this challenge that I had in life. I think it was something that I needed to do that I hadn't done. And as we got to the poles, I literally like froze a bit and the horse was behind me and gently nudged me and like pushed me, like was like pushing me along. And then like the meaning making happened in terms of what, what happened. And it really felt like, come on, like, nudge along, nudge along. And that was some insight to me of like what my next steps needed to be and recognising like. How stuck I was feeling and that I just needed to Nudge along and just do something with that situation. And there was another, another moment as well. And it was relationship. It was a relationship thing. And as I was walking, the horse stopped and, like, wouldn't, wouldn't follow me. And it was a relationship I needed to let go of, and until I had actually thought about that relationship and recognised that I needed to let go, the horse wouldn't move. But as soon as I did, and really did some, some work on what, what I needed to do to let go, Then the horse followed me again. It was like literally like an unstuck moment but it was so like embodied and yeah profound like it's not, it's not something that could be recreated. Wow gosh I mean that feels like such a powerful example of the connection, the emotional connection between you and the horse in terms of the horse picking up on your feelings about a situation or a relationship in that case and almost communicating something to you in response to that. I mean, it's interesting, isn't it? Around where that took me then is this, is this idea of wisdom, you know, is the wisdom, is the wisdom then coming from the horse or is the horse picking up and showing you your wisdom. Do you know what I mean? It's kind of like, where does that come from? Yeah, yeah, it's quite profound. But I think regardless of where it comes from, it just highlights that the wisdom is there. So in terms of like deepening our own wisdom and intuitive abilities, I think that's also like the power in it because you recognize how much, how much like inner strength and control and resources you have when you allow yourself to tap into them and really listen. Yeah, absolutely. Gosh, I think we might have to have a part two to this conversation. Because I've got probably another 97 questions flying around in my head here. So if you're up for it, Faye, we might we might reschedule a part two perhaps. But you mentioned something that you said you might like to share if we have time and I don't want and I don't want anything that you'd like to bring in today at least to So, let me check in with you first, if there's something else that you'd like to, to speak about, and then we can see where we go from there. Gosh, there's so much, isn't there? So I think there are some, tangents here in terms of like the benefits of working with horses. So there's the parallel to the coaching work that we do as executive coaches, professional coaches And also like the benefits of coaching within, within a leadership development sphere as well. So I guess like those are two things that I'm really interested in. The, the transformational power of the horse, like actually how beneficial it could be as a coach to experience. And also recognising that I get a lot of that personally from my horse. So for example if you're thinking about some of the coaching competencies, so like maintains presence. So the more present you can be with your horse, the deeper connection and then that's relatable into then how you are as a coach. I can probably think of some examples for all of the competencies actually, because we've already covered a bit around like ethics and boundaries. Evoking awareness listening to energetic and like body language shifts. Yeah, so there's that area to explore and also how horses can be great role models for leaders. And help them really like deepen their own self awareness and regulate emotions and understand their impact on others. And the other thing that came to mind as we were talking was I think it was when we were talking about the psychological safety that actually even just being in that that space can invite. The leader to being quite a vulnerable space and vulnerability is one of those key leadership characteristics that is being called for at the moment. So, yeah, there's lots of different angles that we could talk about, Tracy. There's so much. I really think we need to have at least an episode two to this because there's so much that we could. We could explore around, you know, the grounding in competencies, but also I'm, I've got, I've got some thoughts around, you know, where could this go and what, where do you want to take it and all sorts of things like that. But it feels as though to be a better coach, we ought to hang out with horses, actually, you know, just give me any more excuses. Exactly. I mean, lucky you to just, to be doing that. It does make sense, doesn't it? I mean, from what you're saying, just being around a horse, spending time with a horse, regardless of whether you ride or own all the time, but even if you do ride even more so there's such a lot there to be learned. Around many of these qualities that we could directly translate into into our coaching competencies. So I'm tempted to keep going, but they do say with podcasts, you should let leave people wanting more. So maybe we maybe we pause here and and agree if you're up for it to do an episode two in a little while. Yeah, I'm definitely up for it. I mean, we haven't even touched on the environment either and that aspect of being outdoors. with nature and the impact that can have on well being and and self care. So lots more to come. We are literally just scratching the surface, poofing at the ground a little bit. Yes. There's a lot more in there. Wow. That's fantastic. Any final thoughts, just to bring this episode to a pause and then we'll hopefully set up something else and give people another taster of this another time. Yeah, no, just, well, thank you for inviting me to talk about my two favourite things and the fact that I get to do it again is even better. So I'll look forward to that. Marvellous. Thank you so much. Me too. Well, watch this space then for another, another conversation soon. Brilliant. Marvellous. Thank you. You have been listening to Coaching in Conversation by Tracy Sinclair, a podcast aimed at exploring how coaching is a vehicle for human development in today's and tomorrow's world. You can learn more about coach training and development at tracysinclair.com and follow us on social media. If you enjoyed this podcast, please leave a rating and review and also share it with your networks to help us expand our reach. Thank you for listening and see you next time.

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