Coaching in Conversation

Mastery Series: The 3 Levels of Mastery with Wai K Leong

• Tracy Sinclair • Season 1 • Episode 24

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In this episode of "Coaching in Conversation: The Mastery Series," host Tracy Sinclair engages in an insightful discussion with Wai K Leong, a pioneer of coaching in Asia and an esteemed ICF Master Certified Coach. Together, they explore the concept of mastery in coaching, diving deep into Wai's personal journey, his perspectives on technical, self, and situational mastery, and the ongoing, dynamic nature of mastering the craft. Wai shares valuable insights on the importance of presence, intuition, and self-awareness, offering listeners practical wisdom to enhance their coaching practice.

Wai K Leong, MCC, ACTC is based in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. He served in the ICF Global Board as Vice Chair in 2017 and as a Global Board member (2015-2018). In 2019, he was inducted into the ICF Circle of Distinction. He is the author of three books: Empowering Asian Mindsets Through Coaching, Powerful Performance Coaching Tips and SHIFT into Masterful Coaching.

Wai K has coached and trained more than 10,000 senior managers and executives in coaching skills. He has accumulated more than 3,000 hours of executive leadership coaching experience. Additional, he co-developed a corporate coaching tool called C.O.A.Ch, designed to help organizations develop a coaching culture. Wai K specialises in executive coaching, coaching skills training for managers and ICF-accredited coach certification programs.

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Hello, my name is Tracy Sinclair and welcome to Coaching in Conversation, the Mastery Series. This series of conversations explores, The concept of mastery in coaching, and I have the great pleasure of talking with several ICF master certified coaches from around the world to understand what mastery really means to them, both as coaching practitioners and also as human beings. We explore many different perspectives and nuances of this topic, and I hope it is of use and interest to you as you continue to navigate your own journey. Hello, it's Tracy Sinclair here with another episode of Coaching in Conversation. This time, an episode, which is focusing on our Mastery Series. And I have the absolute pleasure of talking with Wai K leong, who is a wonderful coach from Asia. Wai K Leong actually has been very Key in developing and being a pioneer of coaching across Asia, across his region, as well as specifically in Malaysia. He has been a chapter president of ICF Malaysia and has also been a global board director and ICF global board vice president, which is where I connected with Y some years ago because we At the great pleasure of being board colleagues together at the ICF and apart from his his work volunteering for the ICF, Wai K has also got a school in Malaysia where he teaches coaching level one, two and three, and also coach training. He's also an author and he has written a book around empowering Asian mindsets. through coaching as well as other books around coaching performance with tips and thoughts on mastery and coaching. I also know, which he has shared with us in this session, that he has another book which is almost done, I believe, around mastery and coaching. So we are very, very well placed. He's a wonderful human being as well as a fantastic coach. And some of his work has also been recognized by him winning an ICF Circle of Distinction Award in 2019 and the APAC Best Coach Gold Award in 2021. So, The perfect person to talk about this topic. I really hope you enjoy this episode and it's called The Three Levels of Mastery. Well, hello Wai, it's lovely to catch up with you. I know in our conversation just now we were realizing that it's probably about six years since we actually were together in a, in a meeting. And I can't believe how quickly that's gone by. Okay. And it truly is such a pleasure to reconnect with you today, and I'm really, really looking forward to hearing from you. What your thoughts are on mastery and coaching. Before we go into that specifically, please just tell us a little bit about your journey in coaching and how you got to be in the place that you're in today. Okay. So firstly, thank you, Tracy, for inviting me to your podcast. And yes it was a delight catching up with you. So how did I get started? into coaching was not so much of a passion, but more of a necessity. So if I look back at the time I got started in coaching, it was way back in 1995, 96. I was with an organization and they promoted me to become a general manager at a relatively young age at that time. And my concept of a leadership was I must say now a bit flawed. And within six months of my tenure as a general manager, two of my senior staff resigned. So my boss had a pep talk with me and I decided to embark on a leadership development journey. And a long story short, at that time, internet was not very fast. It was a dial up thing. And I managed to connect to this gentleman called Thomas Lennon. And he was very generous in sharing coaching tools, tips, and so on. And I picked up a few and I just tried it out, changed my conversation from directing to questioning, from being an expert to being a learner. And I, I found that my engagement with my team increased. So that actually enthused me in terms of learning more about how to coach even more effectively. So that started my journey, really. And I applied coaching for about four years in an organization, and then I decided to come out and start this coaching business, sharing with the leaders what coaching is and is not, and how they can use it in their leadership. Yeah. So that, that was how I got started. Wow. That's fantastic. I mean, two things really strike me about that. Why one is, is, is how you came into coaching through experiencing a challenge in your own. leadership, you know style or skills or whatever, and how coaching supported you in that. That's wonderful. But also I hadn't realized that you had connected directly with Thomas Leonard. So for those, for those listeners who may not know, some of them may not know, that Thomas Leonard was one of the founding, Gurus, I guess, or, you know, lead leaders and pioneers in the field of modern coaching and actually was. the person that was responsible for the creation of the ICF in the first place and and first ever, I believe, coach training program. So you've been right in there from day one. I've been privileged to just have just happened to stumble on his website, communicated a little bit with him through email and yeah, the rest of it was history. It was history, as they say. That's fantastic. Oh, and I love that story. Well, and now here we are today, all of that time later, talking about mastery. And I'd love to hear Your perspective, I guess, initially of what, what does this word concept of mastery mean to you when you think of that? So I've been thinking about this question about five years ago because I have started a book called Masterful Coaching. And it's about 90 percent complete. And I, I, I gave very deep thought about what is really coaching mastery. So and I have discovered from my own experience and research that Mastery in any trade, not just coaching. Whether you are a sportsman, whether you are a craftsman, or a musician, there are generally three or four elements that describe Masterful performance. And I see mastery as more of a journey rather than destination, that every rung of a ladder when we climb, we become better and more effective, or more masterful from where we started. So, I think there are three ingredients if I were to apply that into coaching. One is technical mastery, which is really about mastering the competencies and in ICF terms, the eight competencies. The second mastery is really self mastery. How we upgrade our own operating system as a human being and how we connect with people and how we are able to put aside our biases and all those other things that make coaching Challenge, good coaching challenge. And the third level of mastery really is about situational mastery that masterful coaches or masterful traits, men, they have invested so many hours in terms of trying new things, experimenting with it, that they're able to to use their experience and wisdom. to approach a certain client from their wealth of experience. So technical versus self and situation, I think these three areas are very important. But of these three, I think what is most important is self. That a lot of time I find that from my experience, myself hinders great coaching. And it is in my desire to help people change. It is like my my intent to create change. Awareness in them to create an aha moment. Those kind of situations actually worked against the coaching conversation. And, and I have come, come to use an analogy. It's like masterful coaching is like a mirror. And, and I tell this to my staff. I said, how do you know you are towards mastery when you can operate just like a mirror? All right. And what does a mirror do? All of us, in fact, have been coached every day by our mirror. We wake up, we look at the mirror and say, I don't like my hairstyle. I don't like my dress. I need to make a change. Right. So. So a mirror doesn't hold any judgment. It just purely reflects back what who you are and how you look, you know, with no good or bad. And you make that choice. So when we are getting closer and closer towards being mirror like, We tend to be able to give feedback with no judgment, all right? We tend to give feedback with no intention to change the person, all right? It's just purely this is how I'm noticing, all right? And how does it land with you? Is this something that you comfortable with? Is this something that you want to do something about? You know, so being like a mirror is you know, It's a good analogy in my mind to help people reflect on where they are in the journey. Wow. Well, I, I love the metaphor of the mirror, of course. And what a, what a lovely way to to position the non judgment and the, the, the, the clean. you know, perspective, if you like, that that's being offered. And I also love these three levels that you've talked about. So I'd love to talk a little bit about those. I guess level one, the first level, the first step is a fairly straightforward one. As you're saying, we need to Be technically solid and skilled and grounded and practiced and consistent. And we, you know, we have training courses and credentials and mental coaching and all of those things that, that, that support us with that. And of course, I guess, lots of hours of practice. I'd love to maybe focus a bit more on the other two. Sure. One of the ways you talked about the working on self, one of the ways that I've articulated that is the distinction between the doing of coaching, i. e. that technical level and the being of the coach. How am I actually being? So I'd love to hear. A little bit more of your thoughts on, you know, what does that, what, what does that ask of us? You know, it's, it, I guess it's a what am I trying to say? When we learn a skill, we're very focused, aren't we, on learning how to use a skill with and for someone else. And yet what we're saying now with this, Work on self is actually, no, the work I need to do now is on me. So what does that, what, what's needed in order for us to be able to do that, do you think, in, in your perspective? So I find that as we learn coaching, as, as I teach my students and I, I get feedback from them. One of the things in which they most often mention is that this is a fabulous skill. Not only do we learn how to help others, we learn to discover about ourselves and how we can improve. We how we can use our strength and how our strength can sometimes be our weakness in terms of helping people change. So, so I find that in terms of learning the technical part of it, the process of learning where you're coached and you're being coached help one to discover themselves and just today we had a certification class and one of the students just walked up to me and said that, you know, I gained so much more than just learning the technical skills of coaching. I learned about myself. You know, I, I learned and I discovered how my relationship was not working at certain situations and I have an awareness on why that's happening. So that's the beautiful part about Kyrk. coaching as a modality, that we not only help people, we in turn help ourselves more. And as I, as I look into this, I find that what's the difference between a competent coach versus a masterful coach? I think the distinction is like you have just mentioned, The the doing and being part they become one that the, the masterful coach probably do not see themselves as doing it. They are always immersed in a flow that who they are is how they express themselves. That they are no longer using logic to navigate the but they are also combining it with the intuitive Talent in terms of informing what to do, you know and I, I think one of the distinction of a master, masterful coach really is they are able to, to master presence. that they can actually call on being fully present like in a snap of a finger. They are in the flow, you know, whereas beginning coaches or even sometimes competent coaches, they have to remind themselves to listen. They have to remind themselves to be present. So it's like, Masterful coaches, it's just part of them. They are so immersed in the conversation that they don't see themselves doing it. There's something almost well, I suppose it's this idea of unconscious competence was coming into my mind in a way that we're, we're in a flow and a mindset that is not being consciously driven by, I need to do this, or I ought to do that. Yes. And if anything, If I'm understanding you correctly, that voice could then get in the way. We get in our own way when we start to try to perform. Yes. So and yes, and, and I think another sign of mastery is when you see that the person has let go of. systems, structure, and processes. Most of the time when I mentor MCC, they tend to ask me, so what are some things that we need to be mindful of to do? And so they are still bounded by structures that I must tick this off and I must tick that and I must ask this question and I must do that. And I find that once you reach, mastery your intuition informs you what the client needs best. And it's not the things that you think that you need to check off against. And that's where intuition comes in. That's where experience comes in. And sometimes the coach can just go out of the coaching modality and do something that is useful for the client. Yeah. And still mindful enough to come back to coaching and continue the conversation. Yeah. So that I'm hearing this move away from structures and processes to flow to intuition and If a coach was to say to you, why, well, that all makes sense, but how do I do that? How do I nurture my intuition? How do I grow my self awareness and work on myself? What, what, what would your response be to something like that? So that's a question I get pretty as pre often especially coaches They say each competencies and there are so many things to be mindful of in each competency. That is so overwhelming Yeah, I can understand that right? So if you're trying to force a certain idea, concept into a conversation, then we end up doing. And my advice to them really is that while you're aware now of the range and depth of things you need to do to display some of these competencies, When you're really coaching, throw all those away. Just be fully present, be fully interested, have a learner's mind, take away your expert mind, you know, and be totally curious, childlike almost, you know, and listen, and the questions will come naturally. Only after the conversation, then reflect back. What do I know in terms of displaying good listening, good questioning? What did I do in that session that has actually done some of these things? And what can I do differently in the next round? So, rather than forcing, you tools, techniques into a conversation. My advice for them, my students, would be like put aside all those things, all right, and just be completely curious and have a learner's mindset. Thank you, Wai and I'm also thinking from your own perspective, knowing yourself as you do and how you've followed this pathway to mastery, What are some of the lessons that you've learned for yourself about your own mastery in terms of your own self awareness. So and I'm still sharpening my tool. That's why I'm saying that it's not a destination to say that I've arrived. It's like I've Climbed more rungs of a ladder and and hence I have more ammunition to work with my clients to help them to gain awareness. And yet there are still parts of me that I need to continue sharpening. There's still parts of me that I find sometimes when I am distracted by Personal matters that I cannot be fully present. And I tell my client today, I'm not at my best. So if you want to postpone the session, it's fine with me. But I will you know pull on everything to serve you. So I let them know. And, and I find that one of the things that I have gained over the years is. The the courage to share what I think used to be could be hurtful for the client. All right. And when I look back at my journey, there were times where I held back my observations when in fact I think it would be useful for the client to know. It may, it might or might not hurt the client, but that was the thought I have. But now I've learned to trust my intuition. I've learned to give feedback in such a way as it would look neutral and yet objective enough for the person to look at. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, those are my journey. Thank you. I love, I love what you're talking about there around the courage, the courage to, to share more transparently or to challenge or, you know, whatever that might be. And I'm, I'm thinking that in the previous set of competencies, this, I think was possibly more clearly articulated than it is currently. That part of mastery and coaching is to not just be okay with not knowing, but to also be okay with discomfort of, of both your client and your own, that we can both be in that space of the discomfort of needing to draw upon our courage, or You know, being uncomfortable with not knowing what's going on or whatever it might be. So I'm just really, it's great that you've touched there on that idea of, I have to be out of my comfort zone if I'm going to work masterfully. There are times when I will go outside of my own comfort zone and not only my client. Yes, so true. And, and the more I find that the more areas I feel uncomfortable with, those informs me of the areas I need to grow into. Yeah. What a great barometer or mirror. It's another mirror, isn't it? Yes. Back to, back to us. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So rather than avoiding the unpleasantness I think masterful culture stands to confront and even to face that and feel that discomfort. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's fascinating. And if I could just go back to something you said a couple of minutes ago, why you, you said that, you know, you're still sharpening your saw, and maybe there are times when you are not. 100 percent yourself, if you like, which of course is very normal. We we fluctuate, don't we, as human beings. Does that mean then that mastery can, can be more or less present for us? As opposed to something that we just suddenly reach and then it's there forever, you know, as a, as a fixed quality. I'm, I'm picking up a sense of it could come and go, almost. And I, I just wanted to check and explore that idea with you. Yes, I tend to believe from my experience that masterful work has many factors involved. One part of it is really your competencies, who you are and your experiences. And the other part of the equation is really how aware the client is. If the level of awareness of the client is high, then the output, the creative work that comes out from that collaboration can be very beautiful. However, if the client's awareness is not very high. Then no matter how masterful you are, you might not create masterful work. So that's the second part of the equation. And really sometimes we are, for example, I am at certain times I am at my peak form. It's like I'm fully present and it's, there's, I'm not aware of anything else but my client and I. All right. And there are times where I go on and off, you know pulling myself back, you know, and, and stuff like this. So it's not consistently once you reach that stage, you produce masterful work. It's like, it's, it's it's a situation where you need to work on it harder sometimes when you're not in an optimal form. Thank you. That's, that's lovely, which I guess speaks to what you were saying about It's not, it's not a destination. It's, it's, it's a process. It's a journey. It's a pathway. A lifelong one, I guess. Yes. Yeah. Yes. So one of the things that I share with my students is that you have just started a journey that has no end. How lovely that the fun never ends. Keep walking. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I'd love if I may we've still got maybe a little, a little bit of time, a few more minutes. I'd love to hear. A little bit more about the level three part that you mentioned, Wai, around the situational mastery, I think you called it. So tell us a little bit more about that. So situation mastery to me is probably like if you are Craftsman work working on a sculpture and you're presented with a piece of wood. All right So if you have carved thousands of woods before and you look at this structure of this wood you would probably know that I need to approach it this way rather than this way. So those kind of experience comes wisdom how you approach a certain client. And certain clients require your approach to be a bit stronger. Certain clients require more of an affiliative kind of connection before they are ready to explore deeper. So those kind of situations, if you have enough experience you can draw on and just like a Formula One driver, when they drive in different circuits throughout the world, they will know at this point, I must do this in this circuit, you know, so those, those are the situational mastery. Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. What, so there's a couple of things you're making me think about there. One is This idea then of not just coach as much as you can, but coach as many different kinds of clients as you can so that you've got the variety of situations. A bit like the Formula One driver that doesn't only do Formula One in the UK, they do Formula One in other countries so that they've got the variety and the diversity of experience. And the other thing that was coming up was In our 8 Competency Model, we talk, don't we, about context, understanding the client's context, their, their, you know, their situation, their background, their culture, their values, their beliefs. So, That seems to be speaking to this idea of their, their situation, their unique situation. Yes, yes. So true. It's, it's like even in, within the same circuit, for example, formula One drive driver drives, sometimes it could be a rainy season. Sometimes you get dry season, sometimes you have got a car smashed in front of you and how you avoid it. So not just, culture, culture from different countries, but even within the same country, different personalities and so on. So the more we coach, the more we reflect and learn from it, the more arsenal we have in our toolkit to help our clients. Yeah, that's fabulous. Well, time flies. Why? I don't know where the time has gone, but we've got a few more minutes left and I'm just wondering, What else would you like to share around this topic that might be useful to our listeners around mastery that perhaps we've not we've not covered? Anything else that you'd like to to bring in? So I would probably say that one of the important ingredients to towards mastery is self reflection. The quality of after every session to reflect back what worked, why it worked, and what didn't work, and what can I try differently? So, as we self reflect we picked up nuances much faster than when we don't self reflect. So, yeah. Well, thank you. A fantastic advertisement for reflective practice there, which of course is, is so important, isn't it? And I love the fact that reflective practice now in particularly in competency two is, is so, it's much more in the foreground now of something that we should be thinking about. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Wai. I, I can't believe the richness of what you've shared. I love this idea of these three levels of mastery. When will your book be finished? It has been in gestation for quite a while on and off. I will come back to it. I hope to launch it sometime early next year. Keeping my finger crossed. Well, I'll keep my fingers crossed too, because it sounds as though that would be a phenomenal book. So I really, really look forward to that. Hope our listeners will look forward to it as well. And thank you again, Mai, for, for taking the time to talk to me today. Thank you, Tracy, for having me in the session. Thank you. You have been listening to Coaching in Conversation, the Mastery Series, a podcast that takes a look at mastery in coaching, what it is, what that means, how do we nurture or cultivate it, and many other interesting questions. You can hear more about coaching education and development at tracysinclair. com and follow us on social media. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating and a review, and also share it with your network to help us expand our reach. Thank you for listening, and see you next time.

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Tracy Sinclair, MCC

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