Coaching in Conversation
Coaching in Conversation is a chance to discuss and explore, not just how we can keep developing and maturing as coach practitioners, but also to consider how coaching is evolving and its future potential and place as a powerful vehicle for human development in todays and tomorrow’s world. Tracy Sinclair, MCC will be sharing some of her own thoughts on these topics and we will also hear from some great guests from around the world who bring their unique experience and perspectives.
Coaching in Conversation
Mastery Series: Do You Trust Yourself? with Benita Stafford-Smith
In this episode, Tracy is joined by coach and author Benita Stafford-Smith. Their conversation delves into the concept of “Mastery” in coaching, exploring its dynamic and evolving nature, and touches on how mastery is not just about acquiring credentials but about broadening horizons and embracing new adventures. They also ponder the future of coaching with the rise of AI and emphasize the need for coaches to continually evolve their understanding and presence.
Benita is an executive Coach who has envisioned and established a profitable coaching unit, within the leading people’s consultancy firm in Oman. With services ranging from business development, client relationship management, to building a team of ICF Credentialed associate coaches, Benitas is able to deliver culture sensitive, high-quality services to paramount organizations in the GCC region.
In addition to executive coaching, she offers systemic team coaching, coaching skills for managers and leaders (a certified CoachU program), culture transformation, and development of coaching cultures. She also delivers coaching supervision to associate coaches to ensure quality of delivery.
In 2023, Benita nominated OQ (a coaching client) for the International Coaching Federation's Impact Awards for their sustainable coaching culture. She is co-author of Creative Reflective Practice and the upcoming The AI and Digital Coaches' Handbook.
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Hello, my name is Tracy Sinclair and welcome to Coaching in Conversation, the Mastery Series. This series of conversations explores The concept of mastery in coaching, and I have the great pleasure of talking with several ICF master certified coaches from around the world to understand what mastery really means to them, both as coaching practitioners and also as human beings. We explore many different perspectives and nuances of this topic, and I hope it is of use and interest to you as you continue to navigate your own journey. Hi everyone. It's Tracy Sinclair here with another episode of Coaching in Conversation. This time with an episode in our Mastery series. I'm joined this time by Benita Stafford Smith, who is not only an amazing coach, very experienced working with executives systemic team coaching, Working with organisations around cultural change and transformation. She is also a published author and actually has a book coming out this year, in 2024, which she has co authored called The AI and Digital Coaches Handbook. A very topical book. Subject at this time, Bonita is also very pioneering in that she has been living in Oman for many years now and has immersed herself into that community and in fact was pioneering in bringing coaching to Oman. It was something that was unheard of when she arrived and she developed a coaching offering and nurtured that offering to the point where she was in the setup of the ICF chapter in Oman which is now flourishing and thriving with local coaches who are now taking that forward. So I'm very excited to offer you the opportunity to hear the conversation with Benita, who has so many. Interesting perspectives on mastery and ways to engage with mastery. I could have called this episode many things, but the topic that I, or the title that I have concluded is, do you trust yourself? Enjoy. Well, Benita, thank you so much for taking the time to connect with me today. I'm really looking forward. to our conversations for more than one reason, actually, as we were just discussing. I think you bring such an interesting perspective on probably many, many things, but two very key things is one is, is the concept of mastery. Particularly within coaching, but also the fact that you've lived and worked for many years in Oman, which has a very different culture. Perhaps I'm sure a very different way of working with coaching as a, as a discipline. I'd love to hear your perspectives on all of those things. So I'm going to hand over to you. Please share what you'd like to about who you are and what you do, and then we'll dive into those topics. Okay, so I guess I'll, I'll just begin with, you know, I was a Canadian working, living and working in Oman in Canada, and I didn't come to Oman until I was actually quite, I was 47 years old when I came, so I was quite late in life. And people often say, why on earth would you move to Oman? Why would you move to a Muslim country where, you know, women are perceived to be overlooked? Why would you do that? And, you know, and it kind of, for me, combines with the topic of mastery. Because for me, it's all about experience. It's what value and what value can I contribute to the, to the profession of coaching to everybody I interact with and to the world that I can impact. So that's mastery in one for me. In one sense, it's broader than just coaching. You know, I think about the, the mastery. There's the skill level, which is a credential, but then we start the, that's when we just begin the mastery journey. That's when we start, because then there's this invitation, now what? Now you have all the skills, you've got them down, now what? And I think that's a fascinating question for coaches to answer for themselves. Now what? Now what? Yeah. So for me, it's more about about adventure and pioneering and creating something new, which I think is what coaching is about, actually. It's about exploring. So we've sort of gone to that place of mastery. Let's, let's, let's carry on with that and we come back. I'd love to bring Amman back into this afterwards. So you said two really interesting things there, which I'd love you to say more about. One is it's a beginning. And that's curious, I think, because so many people. Think of mastery as an arrival or an ending or a destination. And you've, you've really interestingly framed that as it's the beginning of something. And then the other part where you talked about it as being a pioneering adventure to do and create something new. Please say more about, about those things. Yeah, so I, I'm, I'm going to say it's the beginning because I think, you know, once we, we have our, our, our competencies or our skill level at a level where it's just automatic for us, we, we aren't thinking about it, then, then for me, it's about broadening your horizons. How can I, I'm, it's hard to explain, but I'll, I'll, I'll use it like this. I was listening to a a webinar given by an astronaut and, and he was asked, he was talking about space travel and all the benefits to humanity that space travel has brought and all the ongoing training and development that happens to an astronaut once they've launched. And I thought, well, isn't he talking about coaching, right? It's, and, and it was such a, it is like, what's your perspective? You know, and do you just, okay, I'm an astronaut. Now I'm in space. That's it. I'm done. No, you continue your training, but it's not in the same thing that you started. So it's a new beginning. It's a new perspective. It's a bigger world. So that's, I think, why I think of it as the beginning. And, and I think it's really important for coaches when they, you know, when I think about mastery, it's not, it's not mastery in one place. It's, you know, it's mastery in curiosity. What else is going on in this world? What can I learn about, I don't know, pottery or cooking or, you know chemistry or physics or something that takes me completely out of, out of what I know? Yeah. So that's, that's the pioneer in the expansion I think that comes once you've got your skill level, then, then it's broadening that into different perspectives which contribute back. Yeah, I love that. And thank you so much because you've just joined up some dots for me. One of the things I've shared with some people is that for me, my, my learning around mastery started when I got my MCC, not before. And, and, and from that point, I realized there was something else. Started reading philosophy, reading poetry doing yoga, studying yoga sutras. Which very much aligned I, I'm realizing now with what, what you were describing of it opens up somehow a new domain. Yeah, because there's so much, there's so, so much in this world. And I think, you know, that we need to stay focused on the coaching world until we get our, our skill level to the point where it's kind of automatic. But that's just the start. Then what about, what about the rest? Or, you know, that we're, that expansion is so important when I think about Mastery and especially in coaching. Because, you know, we come across clients from all different disciplines. different functions, different parts of the world different viewpoints. And if, if we're just, if we've got blinders and we only understand one perspective, that's not mastery for me anyway. So it's about broadening that horizon. What you're saying there, Benita, makes me think about, if I ground this in the competencies for a moment, It's like working with the whole person and also this idea of context of being mindful and aware of the context, both of us and the client, the bigger picture without that broader learning and awareness, then the sphere of awareness is going to be just so much more contained and limited, isn't it? Absolutely. So, you know, for us to be of service. Because I think the coaching profession is a service to humanity. I don't think of it as just a, I'm a coach. I think of it as a service to humanity. And if we're, if we're not able to, well, I, if we're not, I think the invitation that comes with that once you have your credential to the highest level is broadening your horizons and, and literally seeing humanity instead of just my coaching client. Because at the end of the day, they're humans. And they're all humans. They're all beautiful human beings. And we can't appreciate that unless it's inside us first. So I think it always starts here. And then we can give service to the rest of the world. And it isn't about knowledge, it isn't about how smart I am. It's about I was just reading a beautiful David White poem, actually, about I don't care which god you believe in, etc. It was a beautiful poem, I wish I knew the whole thing. It said, I only care that you can feel another person's pain and sit with it. My god, it's so beautiful. That's so beautiful. Yeah. Just, it may not be pain, but I often say, we're human beings, we all have warts, and we have to love our warts and other people's warts. We all have them, you know. So yes, for me, that's what mastery is about. It's that I think, you know, again, one of my favorite Carl Jung quotes is that learn all your models and theories. As best, as best you can know them, know them the very best you can know them. But when you're sitting across from another human beings, be just another human being. That for me describes mastery. Yeah. There's something there just so beautiful, isn't there, about the, just the simplicity and yet the power of absolute presence, just being with. Yeah. Rather than doing, saying anything, really, the capacity to truly and wholly be with that other person. And, you know, I think it's something that you, that you, you mentioned and coaches always talk about is the powerful question, like, what's the powerful question? Like, we have to have the powerful question. And I think that just unfolds. You don't, you don't know it beforehand. You can't possibly know it, but the client will guide you down that path. And I guess that takes quite a lot of trust, doesn't it? To let the client guide you down that path. There's a lot of trust in, in, in them and you. Yeah, I think the trust is in you actually. I think the trust is in you. Not, not, not in them, not that you trust them, but that you trust yourself, that you can sit with that person. And listen to them. And if someone, if someone was to someone who is aspiring towards this pathway of, of mastery, this lifelong pathway, I guess, of mastery what, what would you share with them from your own learning in terms of what, what has enabled you to, to find access to that, to that place, to that space? Gee, there's that, I can answer that question in so many ways, so, you know, I think we hear a lot today about presence, the coach's presence, and I think it's important that each coach defines what that means for them. The pathway there, I think is different for everybody. I don't think there's a cookie cutter answer to that.. You know, there's something about being able to connect with some people call it spirit. Some people call it a higher power God, Allah, it's a thousand different names, but I always think in a, in a, in a coaching session, there's, there's another presence, another energy that happens, and I would invite people thinking about that pathway to try and get in touch with that. No matter what it means to you, just to be able to, to know that, that there is another presence in the room, a presence in the, in the session that has a, that can give us confidence or give us a clue as the right way to go. I'm not quite sure how to, how to say it, but there's, to me, there's, it's, it's, There's just, something happens in those absolutely beautiful coaching sessions that is greater than myself and the client. I don't know, it doesn't matter to me what you call it. It's just, I know it's greater than the two of us. Yeah. It's not one plus one equals two. It's one plus one equals five. Yeah, yeah. And, and what, well, I'm making an assumption here that, that you also feel like I do, that mastery is an ongoing thing. It's not just something we get, we get one day and then we've got it forever. That it's, for me, it's a practice almost that is part of, you know, my own lifelong ongoing growth. What for you, have you learned about what, what gets in the way of that? What sort of takes you away from being able to access that? For me, I can only speak for myself, and I see it in many other people, is busyness. I get busy doing instead of focusing on the being. I have a calendar, I have all these meetings, I have to do this, I have to do that, la la la la la la la, and I get completely bogged down in that doing part. So for me, there's a precaution about not putting, not putting too much on my calendar. For me, space is really important. And it's, it's, it's space on the calendar, but it's space that gives me space to reflect. I think reflection is so important. If we're talking about mastery, you have to be able to sit back and, and be able to literally sit back and reflect on what you're doing, how you're showing up. So reflection is just, for me, is key to everything. Yeah, and it's fascinating, isn't it? I mean, I couldn't agree more with you, but it's also fascinating, isn't it? That it seems as though in today's world, business is more rife than ever. It was before and space is at a premium. Yes. It's, it's a, it's a precious commodity, isn't it? That we're trying to, to, to bring in. Yeah, it's, it's, yeah, thank you for that, Tracy, because I, I think also that's very true. Often clients will say in a coaching session that the most valuable thing we did was they took time out for an hour and, and they, they took time, they took a time out. I mean, they didn't time out, but they took time out from their schedule and it just speaks to the importance of doing that. And And how we need to actually find time, find a way to build that in. It's not just about putting the time because some people put the time and then just fill it with some other thing that they're doing it for me. It's about creating this space for yourself. And if you can create it for yourself, then you can offer it to others. Yeah, you are. You are making me think of a story I once read in an article from an author. I can't remember what author it was now, but the journalist was interviewing him on his book writing process. Mm-Hmm. And he said that for four months of the year, he writes roughly a book a year. He is quite prolific as a writer. And he would take him. Yeah, very good. Very enviable, isn't it? Yeah. But he would take himself away. And I think it was in Canada, actually, to a little cabin somewhere devoid of all human contact, you know, lots of canned food to last him for a long time. And he'd go away for four months of the year to write his book. And so the interviewer said, Oh, so it, It takes you four months to write a book then, does it? And he said no, he said it takes me one month to write the book, but it takes me the preceding three months to empty my mind of all of the clutter Yeah, the space for creative thoughts to emerge and I thought wow, that's Yes. What an incredible story, which is so aligned with what you're sharing there. Yeah. That's beautiful. Yeah. And that, you know, I was, it's, it's, it's interesting to, when you talk about a writer, I was just listening to a podcast by an author and he, he said, gee, I think it's really funny that you asked me to come be a speaker. He says, I don't speak to people. I hide out in the cabin for six months and write stories. I don't have anything to do with people. I don't know what to speak to you about. I thought that was kind of an interesting contradiction. Yeah, absolutely. A nice contradiction, not a, not a bad contradiction, but we often encounter those contradictions, don't we? Yeah. Right. What do you mean you want me to sit, take time for myself and just sit? Are you crazy? Sometimes that thought is so shocking to people. And yet so valuable. And so valuable, yeah. It's so interesting. But again, I think life is a lot like that. Those things that we think are crazy and insane, once we explore them, we often go, Hey, you know, that's pretty useful actually. Yeah, yeah. The other thing that you said, about mastery was how it was a pioneering adventure. I'd love to hear a little bit more about, about your thoughts on that. They're quite interesting words, a pioneering adventure. Yeah. Well, because for me, that's what mastery is. It isn't, it isn't about repetitive, taking classes, getting certificates. It's about doing things I haven't done before. It's about stretching, stretching myself to a place where I don't even know what to do, right? So that's what I think is adventure and pioneering, because I don't know what it is, you know. There's so many examples I could use of things. So right now I'm contemplating going to Rwanda and walking with the gorillas. Like, yeah, that's pioneering adventure. Talk about taking me to a different world that I don't understand, I don't know anything about, and getting me away completely from what I know. And that's the key for me. Maybe not for other people, I don't know. But I think for me, it's not about another degree or another credential. Yeah, I'm loving this idea of, you know, there's so much of this idea, isn't there, of this pathway that goes from coach training from one credential to another credential and so on. Which is, which is, as you say, is a great pathway to follow, but there is then so much more on the side of the roads, on both sides of that road. I've got a sense almost of of a long motorway or a long highway, and then this vast terrain that's on either side that we could be blinkered into if we're just following that path. We're not actually seeing all of this amazing stuff that we could be learning and engaging with and experimenting with. Yeah. And, and I think, you know, knowledge is important. I'm not saying it isn't important. I think taking courses and gaining knowledge is, isn't also an important piece. It's just, it's not limited to that. It can't be limited to that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, sometimes that will really stretch us. But not if its only purpose is to get another certificate, another credential. Then, okay, good. If the purpose is to explore something, maybe you take a course in quantum physics, I don't know, right? Strange world to me. So, that's, I could get a certificate, but that's not why I'm doing it. I'm not doing it to get the certificate. I'm doing it to broaden my perspectives. You're making me, you're making me think of one of the episodes that I did of this podcast with Sakina, Sakina Jones. And her, her theme of her podcast was find your why. And you're just reminding me of that because of what you're saying there around your purpose. What is the purpose of that pathway? What is the purpose of the credential or the purpose of the learning? Because purpose is going to, I guess, dictate in some ways what you do and don't engage with. Yes. Yes. And, and also I think sometimes purpose confuses people. It's like, I have to have a purpose. And sometimes you don't know the purpose for a long time afterwards. Sometimes events happen and you didn't understand the purpose. I, I, I always use this, I use this example about, I think that many people, especially in the beginning of, of their lives, think they have to be Steve Jobs or Mother Teresa. That's their purpose. It has to be world shattering and it doesn't have to be. Our purpose can simply be to expand our, our knowledge, to expand our understanding, to to be of service to humanity, even if it's in small ways. It doesn't have to be earth shattering. So sometimes I think it confuses people when they start thinking about what's my purpose. They always They always go like, Oh, it has to be this big thing that I'm doing. And I think it's more about who you're being. Hmm. Hmm. I love that. So we started out with the topic of mastery and Amman, having, having worked with Amman for a long time, you then made the decision at 47 to go and live there. Tell us, tell us more about that story and and perhaps what that has done for your, your knowledge and your self awareness and your, your coaching and mastery. Yeah, you know, that's a fascinating question. Thank you very much for that. And also, and I'm going to say that when I came to Oman, I didn't have a purpose except to go to another country and explore. That was simply my purpose. When I got here no one knew what coaching was. So, aha! A purpose opened up. And you know, it took, it took from 2008, it took seven years before I was able to establish a coaching chapter here. And it was all expats at the time. I'm really happy to say now there's a thriving chapter, ISAF chapter in Oman. Which is predominantly Omani cultures now. Wonderful. So, it's, it's again about what's, you know, how often do you get to be of service like that to a country? How often do you get that opportunity? It wasn't my purpose, I didn't know that when I arrived here, but it unfolded as, as my journey unfolded. You know, and like what, what an amazing gift and what an amazing privilege. But you know, I didn't speak the language. I'm a female in a male dominated culture. I was across the ocean from my, I didn't know anybody here. So it was interesting. It was a, you know, talking about an opportunity to expand, expand who you are. It taught me I'm going to say the most important two things. It made me realize what an amazing gift I could give to this country. And second of all, it really made me more curious and more independent. Because I didn't have, you know, back in, back in our home countries. You know, we have a coaching chapter, whatever it is. There's always other coaches around, there's friends around, there's family around, there's always someone that we can rely on for support. And here I was dumped in this country there was no, there was no internet phone, there was, you know, I didn't know anybody here, and I didn't know the language, and I didn't know the customs. So it was a beautiful learning opportunity. It was amazing. And it continues. So you're reminding me with all of those things that you've just described there, Benita, you're reminding me of this trust in self, the need for trust in yourself. Yes. That when you're pioneering like that, even though you might not realize you're pioneering at the time, as you say, there's, there's an element, I imagine, of where you had to draw upon your trust in yourself to To go over there in that way and, and start, you know, a completely new part of your life. Yeah. You know, I share a funny story with, you know, people always say, Oh, you're so courageous. How, you know, how could you do that? It took so much courage. And I think it didn't take any courage. I think it was just stupid. I think I just didn't know. I didn't know how challenging it would be, but, you know, and it's always really interesting what people say that helps you reflect on what you did. But I can remember, I think I was here for maybe three months. And I had been in, there was a shopping mall, there was one shopping mall at that time, and I had been to the shopping mall to get some things to set up my apartment. And I was just leaving, and one of my nieces called from home, from Canada, and honest to God, I walked outside of that mall, I just sat right down on the sidewalk and bawled my eyes out. It's like, oh! I think, I think, oh yeah, that took a lot of courage. But, you know, it's just part of the process, it's part of the unfolding. It's part of the, yeah, it's just part of the process, but, you know, so I always laugh when people say, oh, you're this and this and that, and I think, yeah, if you'd have seen me sometimes, you would see how brave I was. Yeah. But it's fun, you know, it's fun to look back on those things. Well, I guess also what you're describing is a mirror, really, of the space we're trying to also hold for our clients, isn't it? Because their lives may be unfolding in a way that isn't familiar to them or comfortable to them. And, you know, they may not feel that trust in self or maybe they do, but they're also equally petrified or that's, this is the, this is the broad range of the human experience, isn't it? Yeah. And I think it's, it's, you know, it's, it's not making judgments. It's not I think mastery is about not, it's about being able to not make a judgment on what they say. You know if someone says, you know, it doesn't say, Oh, that must be really, like I said, people saying to me that took a lot of courage. Well, that's kind of a judgment, isn't it? How do you know it took me courage? And I have to think of that when I'm coaching, be careful. No, just be so respectful of that person and make that space for them to come forward with what they're ready to come forward. Because who knows what that is, right? It's so easy to assume, isn't it? Yeah. And I think that's also the beauty of the coaching profession. And you know, when you say, what do you tell new people? I'm telling you, if you're going to become a coach. Be ready to do self development for the rest of your life, be prepared to learn for the rest of your life, and be prepared to have an amazing life, because it's not, it isn't a boring profession, at least for me, in any sense of the way, it's so interesting, people are so fascinating. And I mean, I love what you're saying here about, you know, be prepared to be a lifelong learner and be prepared to have an amazing life. I guess what I'm noticing is, is And I'll own this as my own response is I feel that there is a part of our profession that's through popularity and the growth of the profession that doesn't necessarily see it that way that there's an element of where coaching is this kind of money making cookie cutter development industry that's that there is now not so much about that Huge personal investment of the practitioner around their own growth, but is more of a transactional exchange. What, what are your thoughts on that? I mean, you may disagree. I'm just, I'm just wondering what, what you notice. Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting as you say that because for me that brings in the whole topic of the future of coaching. You know, if we stay with coaching as a cookie cutter type of profession, which, which I'm not seeing as I'm not, I'm not judging right or wrong here. I'm saying there is that perspective there. And we, our profession will be taken over by AI. That's cookie cutter, task based kind of coaching at the moment. And, and I'm not saying either is right or wrong. I'm just saying that that, that, when I think about that, I think about the future of coaching. And I think mostly about, when I think about that, I think about what about new coaches who are on that journey to mastery, who, who have that passion. Thank you. Where do they get experience if, you know, if, if people are only going to hire coaches who are, who have been coaching for a very long period of time and have that experience and that mastery, where did they, you know, there used to be a big market. Those coaches could get lots of experience. But, but now that's being encroached upon, I think, by AI. And so I wonder, I, I, I have, I have a, I guess I'll call it faith that they'll always find a way, you know, but it'll, it'll be more, it'll be more challenging than it was in the past. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I know, I know we're not in the business of giving advice, but if you were to give some kind of advice to a, to one of those developing coaches. Given, given the current marketplace and where it seems to be evolving, what would, what would your offering be? I would, I would advise them to know as much as you can about AI. It's, it's, it is becoming very prominent in our industry. So you can't just turn a blind eye to it and say, oh yeah, yeah, you know, no, yeah, that's not what I'm doing. Maybe, maybe not. Have a look at it. You know, you have a unique gift that you bring to the world. So work on that gift. That's what I find myself saying to students is, you know, AI can do a lot of great things. It can, it can deal with a lot of the transactional work and, and will add value in that, in that respect. What it, what it can't do is be you is your uniqueness is your, is your humanity. And so in some ways, all of these things that you've been describing Benita around how we become more masterful seem to be ever more important to be that humanity, that, that deep presence when we're, when we're with other human beings. Yeah. And, and I think, you know, we'll start, I don't know if this is correct or not, but I think we'll start to see a broadening of coaching from an, from an AI perspective and a narrowing of coaching from a mastery perspective. So I think it's really, you know, and, and I think about you know, about ICF and EMCC and coaching credentialing bodies who are now really emphasizing the presence of the, of the being versus the doing. I think of AI as the doing and the person to person coaching as the being. So if you're a coach who's just doing, explore, pioneer, stretch yourself somehow, somewhere, without having to, you know, we always have to know the answer. Yeah, but what's the answer, Bernita? What should I do? What course should I take? I don't know. Take something that you know absolutely nothing about. If you've never picked up the paintbrush, go take a painting class. Right? Yeah. If you've never mixed, you know different compounds in a, in chem, what do you call them? Vials. In chemistry vials. Take a chemistry course. Yeah. I don't know what it is. But look for it. Yeah. Right? Because it's our, the in person coaching is, in my opinion, narrowing. I don't think it's bad. I don't think it's limiting it, because I think it's a much bigger market than we can possibly cover. Yeah. Right? So it's not limiting it, but it's It's changing. It's changing, and it's differentiating more. Absolutely. Yeah, so, it's interesting. Yeah. When we spoke before we started recording, you mentioned the past, present, and future. You said it's all about the past, the present, and the future. Yeah. As we're, as we're coming towards the end of our time today, Would you like to say a few words about what that meant for you? Yeah, so I think, I think that the past and the future exist in the present and that's what we need to focus on. When we talk about presence, for me that's about being present because I'm not forgetting my past. It taught me beautiful things to bring into the present, but I don't live in the past. And when I think about the future, it's important that I'm looking at the future so I can understand what might possibly be coming, but it doesn't exist yet. It only, the future exists within the present, how I think about it, how I react. what I do, how I'm being. So my present is influenced by my past and my future. They aren't separate to me. That's wonderful. Thank you. And maybe just before we pause then, Benita, is there anything else that we've, we've not discussed today? Anything else that you'd love to share with our listeners around any of the topics that we've, we've covered? I, I think it's, I, I think what you mentioned earlier it's about trust. Do we trust ourselves in the moment? That's all that we have. And so do we, how do we do that, right? I think it's a fascinating topic. I don't think there's an answer to it, by the way. I think, I think it's an evolving answer, which, which is what the beautiful part of it also. I don't see, I don't see things. as having an answer. I just get one answer and then I have another question. So it's continually evolving, it's continually changing. Yeah, and I think that makes it fun. That's the adventure, right? Yes. Yeah. Well, I don't know about you, but I'm, I've been wanting to take up painting classes for many years. So you've, you've maybe prompted me to put that higher up on my list. Yeah, it's a, yeah, I took a university, God, I don't know what, I don't know what possessed me when I was in my thirties, take a university painting class. It was the funniest thing. Because what I discovered was that everybody else who registered in a university painting class had already been painting for years and years. And I was asking the stupid questions like, who would say, well, draw this. And I'd say, what would I draw that with? They would look at me like, oh no. But I did pass that class and that was the most exciting pass mark I ever got in my life. Wow. And it opened up, like I saw the world completely different from taking that class. Yeah. Completely different. It was so interesting. Well, that alone speaks volumes, doesn't it? I know I'm not going to be an artist, and that's fine. That isn't my calling this lifetime, to be an artist. But man, it was so interesting to look at. Now if I look at a tree, I see all the colours in it. I don't just see green leaves and brown trunk, which is what I saw before. So, yeah. So, yeah, Tracy, do it. I will. I will. Yeah, it's really fascinating. As everything is, to me, everything is fascinating. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Benita. I've really, really enjoyed our conversation. And I know the people listening to this episode will have too. So, thank you so much for coming and talking with me today. Thank you for inviting me. It's my pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. You have been listening to Coaching in Conversation, The Mastery Series, a podcast that takes a look at mastery in coaching, what it is, what that means, how do we nurture or cultivate it, and many other interesting questions. You can hear more about coaching education and development at tracysinclair. com and follow us on social media. If you enjoyed this Please leave a rating and a review and also share it with your network to help us expand our reach. Thank you for listening and see you next time.
