Mastery Series: Stop Thinking and Be There with Marcia Reynolds

In this episode of Coaching in Conversation, Tracy Sinclair is joined by Dr. Marcia Reynolds, an ICF Master Certified Coach. They explore the concept of mastery in coaching, emphasizing the importance of presence, human connection, and emotional openness. Marsha shares her insights on how coaching sets itself apart from AI and the significance of creating a safe space for clients. The conversation underscores the transformative power of genuine human interaction and the ongoing journey toward mastering coaching beyond mechanical skills.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds, MCC is passionate about how coaching opens minds to learning. She was the 5th global president of the ICF, is recognized in the ICF Circle of Distinction for her contributions to the global coaching community and a 2024 Impact Award winner for supporting an organization’s coaching culture. She has published five books including her international bestseller, Coach the Person, Not the Problem. She has a doctorate in organizational psychology and two master’s degrees in communications and adult learning. Visit Marcia's website at covisioning.com, connect with her on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/marciareynolds/) or email her at marcia@covisioning.com.

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Chapters

• 3:07 Exploring the Concept of Mastery in Coaching
• 21:52 The Need for Coaching in Fast-Paced Times
• 25:49 The Importance of Being Seen and Valued
• 32:04 Cultivating Presence and Human Connection

Transcript

0:05

Hello, my name is Tracy Sinclair and welcome to Coaching in Conversation, the Mastery Series. This series of conversations explored. As the concept of mastery in coaching, and I have the great pleasure of talking with several ICF master certified coaches from around the world to understand what mastery really means to them, both as coaching practitioners and also as human beings. We explore many different perspectives and nuances of this topic, and I hope it is of use and interest to you as you continue to navigate. Your own pathway of development. Hello again everyone, and welcome to another episode of Coaching in Conversation with myself, Tracy Sinclair, and this time my guest is Dr. Marsha Reynolds. Marcia is very passionate about Carl, how coaching opens minds to learning. She was also the fifth global president of the ICF and is recognized in the I C'S Circle of distinction for her contributions to the global coaching community and a 2024 impact award winner for supporting an organization's coaching culture. And I had the great pleasure of knowing and working. With Marsha for a couple of years while we were both serving on the ICF Global Board. She's published five books, including her international bestseller coach, the Person Not The Problem, and she has a doctorate in organizational psychology and two master's degrees in communication and adult learning. I'm really excited to share this conversation with you as part of our Mastery Series, and this episode is called Stop Thinking and Be There. Enjoy. Well, Marsha, thank you so much for coming and joining me on my podcast. I've been very excited about this and I've had. Quite a lot of comments from people recently around how they've been enjoying the podcast episodes, which is delightful. Great. And so I've been telling quite a few people, well, you wait until this episode because I've got the opportunity to talk with you. So thank you so much for coming along and joining me for a little while. Yeah, great. Thank you for asking. Well, we've had a little bit of a, a conversation around where we might go, but I guess my opening. Inquiry with you, given that this is part of our Mastery series and offering listeners perspectives and ideas on what the concept of mastery actually means in coaching I'd like to ask you that question. What, what does mastery mean for you? Well, as you know, Tracy we've been debating this and trying to encapsulate it for, for such a long time. But, but because mastery is far more abstract in definition, not necessarily in experience, but in definition than just the regular competencies and how we assess that. But that's because mastery has so much more to do with the presence that we bring to the coaching conversation and the impact on people in it. In the field between, that isn't defined in the way normal people would, well, people really focused on, on, on mechanics can truly identify. But, but what I've been doing lately and actually. It's based on something we just talked about, you know, a few months ago getting into the conversation of how long will we last with AI being around, you know, and really getting into what differentiates coaching, which I believe is the mastery, the human element. That energy that we bring, the, the connection we make, the co-regulation of energies. That will be difficult if ever possible for AI to replicate. So I've been researching that and studying that and putting that into my second edition of Coach the Person. Because I think that's the critical element that I. All coaches, no matter where they are, not till they get their PCC, but need to be on this path of mastery of really understanding what is the gift, the true gift we give, and how do we do that other than MEChA mechanics, which can be replicated. Mm mm. Well, when we were talking earlier, I think I mentioned that this is an area that's really close to my heart as well. Mm-hmm. Around what? What is beyond behavioral skill? Yeah. Because the actual mechanical skills can and will and are being rep replicated. And so what is that? That human element? To play devil's advocate, I'd love your perspective on this. One of the things I'm observing mm-hmm. At the same time, both from well, from organizations, some, some organizations, but also from some people training, wanting to train as coaches mm-hmm. Is that they are still. Very focused on wanting the quick mechanical skills mm-hmm. As opposed to the depth of the presence and the, the human energy and, and the work and that. Mm-hmm. I guess, if I'm honest, that, that worries me a little bit because I think that is where our demand is going to be. What are you noticing or what's your perspective on that? Yeah. Well, it's interesting is that really the progression? You know, I can remember in the first coaching program that I was helping to develop, it's like, well, do we teach presence first or skills first? And we found when we tried to teach presence that the students, you know, it's like, no, no, no, just tell us what to do. And, and that, you know, we had to like weave in the presence as this is just a part of doing the skills. And I, I think that. That fear, am I really giving value? Am I doing it right? That drives also that I need to have specifics to follow. But, but I think there's a, a great value to that 'cause most people come into coaching from professions where they are experts. You know, they're trainers, they're HR people, consultants and, and their telling. And so to make the shift. From telling, advising to being a thinking partner, to coaching it, that's a difficult transformation. And so by anchoring who I am with the skills, I think helps them to make that transformation. But as they go along and get better in their proficiency of skills, then they hit another difficult transformation. And that's, I always say, taking the skills from here. And putting 'em back here that when you know them well enough you don't have to think about them. I know that I need to help, I need to coach my client to really discover what does it look like that they wanna create, what's getting in the way of creating that? And then what will you do next? I mean, just, it's, it's that I know I'm doing that, but that's just, you know, the holding the frame. And moving into mastery then, is that I'm really fully present with you. I'm not thinking I'm present with you. I'm, I'm receiving what you're giving me. I'm offering it back to see what you think about it and, and in that loop and that you, my presence is, is. With courage and compassion. You, you know, I'm here for you. You trust me enough to open up and to continue the, you know, it is a loop, but it dives deeper to really get that, you know, that. Oh, this is it. This is what's holding me back. You know, that the little breakthroughs that lead to the big one, you know, and so we've got two big transformation points that I think that people usually come into coaching. So I think it serves a purpose to learn the skills, to know that the distinction of coaching, to do coaching, you know, be before you can actually then, okay, I'm comfortable enough with that. Let me release that and just be with them. Which then is, moves you much forward on that into mastery. So, yeah. I'm really noticing your language there of be with them. Mm-hmm. Which is something I often hear myself saying to students around, you've got the doing mm-hmm. Of coaching and then you've got the being of the coach. Mm-hmm. And so I'm, I'm hearing mm-hmm. If I'm understanding you correctly, a, a connection here between that being and the concept of mastery. Yeah. Is that right? Yeah. And I think, again, if you wanna look at it physically, that you know, the importance of being, having, being fully open not just your head and having an open mind, but you know, an open heart with compassion, with care. I care about you, you know, and you feel that from me. And then the courage. To ask the question or make the reflection that may be challenging and cause some discomfort, and that's okay.'cause it leads to learning. You know, that, that then when I'm fully open, I'm not just stuck in my head thinking, what should I say next? Is this a good thing or will it bother them if I ask that to not be in that? Place. So my being is that I'm fully open and here for you. I'm here for you. And if I catch myself thinking, I come back to I am here for you. You know? And, and, and so much of the research around what's called co-regulation is that when they feel that I am fully open and here for you, that it triggers the biochemistry in them, the oxytocin to want to. Be with you to bond with you. The serotonin, the dopamine that says, okay, I'm willing to open my mind. I'm willing to go down this journey with you that I may not with anyone else, but we can only do that with our emotional open presence. It's an emotional connection. And once we get to there, they will go down the road, you know, even if there's discomfort in the exploration, because they fully do trust you. I always say, you know, the competency is trust and safety. I say it's backwards. It's safety and trust. They have to feel safe in order to trust you. So, and we do that. It's not a, it's not a cognitive process. It's an emotional connection. And that's why it's called being, because I'm being, I'm bringing my whole self, my whole imperfect self. And I accept that to this conversation with you. And I'm just here. To be your thinking partner. So I don't have to think about it.'cause I'm not solving it for you. I'm just helping you think to dissect your thoughts, to look into them in a way you can't do for yourself. You know? And that's the journey we go on, you know? And that's, you know, I mean, we've been around for a long time. I always have to remind coaches, now remember I've been doing this for 30 years. You know, 'cause so when they say, well I don't know if I could ever do that. Not think, you know. I'm like, you can, you know, but it does. That's why for an MCC, it takes so many hours of coaching. You have to keep doing it and trusting and trusting yourself that the right thing will come out. And if it doesn't, it doesn't matter. They'll correct you, you know, which takes it to a deeper place. So, and I'm sure it's probably a little different for each coach, but coming from your perspective, what, what are some of the things that. You would say in those 30 years have helped you have, have enabled you mm-hmm. To be able to access those qualities that allow for mastery to, to come into that? Yeah. Well, you know, it's an interesting thing because before I really. When I was just learning to be a coach. So I was gonna say before I really got it and what I was doing, you know, those first few years, it's like, okay, you know, I'll do my best. But I had the fortunate opportunity it was like just a year after I had, it was 1996 that I was asked to create a, an audio program. I had been writing about. Being in the zone, you know, how do athletes get into that space where nothing's bothering them, even though the game may be on the line and it's up to them. And I did create, it was back in the day when we had a little. Cassettes, you know, and I created a program called Being the Success Stone. But I had interviewed professional athletes from five different sports, very well-known people and, and discovered that there were some very much similarities, and I'm sure they got it from their their you know, coach trainers. But they, they all said. We don't use self-talk because if I tell myself, you're a winner, you're a winner, something back here goes, no, you're not. You're a loser. You know that if you're stuck in your head, you cannot perform at your best. That in those moments when the fans are like booing you and you, you know, and it's all up to you. That they were taught to drop their awareness to the center of their body, you know, their point of strength and, and just feel their body move, you know? And, and, and. The emotion would be just enjoyment of this experience that I have right now. You know? And, and I think that was my first real learning of, it's not about thinking, it's about being, and just being in this moment and enjoying this experience, you know, or, or wanting for you to have. In the end at least an enjoyable experience so that, you know, and then learning the skills. So I think I had the opportunity to weave both as I was learning the skills. And then, you know, as we get more and more into what truly can we do at our best, and, you know, I've been writing books. Since then, you know, but my first outsmart your brain, incorporated that work and then getting into writing coaching books that I kept researching more about you know, the open nervous system and presence and what that brings to our skills. So I think that. I fortunately, you know, had been introduced to a lot of this and that I, it was at the same time, 1997 when emotional intelligence came out. And, you know, I got way into that. I was the one of the first to teach it in many countries.'cause my second master's is in instructional design. So I whipped up a training program before other people, you know, that was really great. But weaving all that. Together, but I have to say, Tracy, I think the biggest realization that I was not taught in, in my early coach training days, I. Was, what does it really mean? This agreement that we're trying to get to and how critical that must be, especially once you know your skills, you don't ask it at the very beginning, so what do you want at the end of our session?'cause they don't know. They're just gonna reiterate the problem. You have to coach them and really understanding what do they mean with the words they use and. You know, what is it they think they can't have, but that they want and why they think they can't have it? And and until you. Unravel and unwrap the picture of what they truly want. And then to ask the key question, so who are you in that picture? You know? And then to be able to coach the who, the identity of, you know, what's it gonna take to create this thing you really want? That's not just what. The situation, but who you are in it that I'm still working to refine what that is and how we get there, because I believe that's, that's the placeholder, you know? And yes, of course it can evolve and change as you go on, but if you don't have that, it's very difficult to really get huge breakthroughs. You can get. Solutions, you can get movement forward, but to really have them see themselves differently, not just the situation, that's the seeds of true sustainable behavioral change. Hmm. So I get, as you see, very excited about that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I mean, it resonates strongly in as much as we know, don't we? The, the competency three is, or establishing the agreement, maintaining the agreement. Is something that is often the other way around and we have such a focus on the topic. Yeah. You know how often mm-hmm. I hear people using that as a means to an end where they think I've gotta get the topic clear so that I can start the work when actually, as you are clearly describing, yeah. The work is not just establishing the topic, but establishing who and where is the client within that context. The topic is just what we're gonna talk about. You know, it's, it's a generic thing, you know, just ask them what's, what's on your mind? What do you wanna talk about today? That's the topic. That's just an opening. You know, it's not the thing, it's not where we're going. That's just an opening. Yeah. And, and again. The great value that we provide is what they the difficulty that they can't do on their own and their own trying to solve it. And, and so, you know, again, they don't know exactly what that is. To really coach them into seeing it is such a gift. Yeah. So they're not able to give it to you right up front 'cause they don't really have it. Yeah, they're not there. Yeah. Yeah. So. Given, given where the world is such a huge, such a huge question opening up here, thinking whatever aspect of it we might want to, but you know, we are in an interesting place, let's call it in the world right now. And coaching has an interesting role in that vis-a-vis AI that you've already referenced and. Coaching vis-a-vis what is needed in the world right now. Mm-hmm. What are, what are your reflections, and I know we haven't got three hours to discuss this, but what are your thoughts Right on, on our place and, and what, what, what do we need to become, be, and do? Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, even looking back and through, 16 years I ran training departments and corporations, you know, before I even came to coaching. It was always like, to me, crazy logic that anytime we got into eco economic crisis, some market crisis, something going on, that was impacting the company. They would cut training, you know, and developing people. It's like, we don't have time for that right now, you know? And it's like, no, now is the time you need it. You know? And there was when I taught Leadership for Maersk for years yet that they said, no, no, we're, we're, we're facing, you know, big problems in the shipping world. So we need leaders to be, to use coaching skills. That was the first time and one of the few times I've seen that. So fast forward to today, you know, emotions and when you have fear, when you have frustration and, and, and there's so much uncertainty, it actually decreases your, your ability to think, you know, because she put you in fight and flight mode. Yeah. You know, so your blood flow is going to your to your limbs regardless. Regardless. And your brain's saying, well, no, you have to be in survival. It's not about thinking. So we're less able to think through what it is that we should now do. Who, how do we be in these chaotic times, you know? And so the, the. The value then of having a coach is to be able to, okay, let's sit down and, you know and be with me and let's really look at what's going on here, what's really happening. Even that, the ease they may have in being with us that releases some of that adrenaline that they can then think a little bit more clearly. As to how do we be in these times? Hmm. Instead of just being reactionary and Hmm. Making wrong decisions because of that. Mm-hmm. So I think it's the most perfect time, you know, to, to have coaches, whether it's one-on-one or team coaches, group coaches. It's critical that we need to really think through. I. These times instead of just hold on and wait and see what happens or start, you know, making decisions that hurt in the long run. Hmm, hmm. One of the maybe characteristics that's perhaps linked a little bit to that is one of the other things I'm noticing as well as like you, you know, cuts in budgets and all of those things that often happen in these times. Yeah. Is the world is speeding up, isn't it? I mean, it's been speeding up for quite a long time and now we are at sort of speeds that are almost beyond comprehension. And I remember I was on an an AI writing course myself recently during March, and by the time we'd finished the three week course. The software we were using had been upgraded twice. Yeah. In that three week. And everything we did in week one was, was defunct, and we had to do again in week three, which is quite fascinating. Yeah. But this idea of everything speeding up and I'm, I'm conscious, you know, of, of books like Cow, Newport's, new book of Slow Productivity. Mm-hmm. You know, we know that. To some extent, we're going too fast. Mm-hmm. And coaching is a process of inviting us into a space of, of slowing down. Mm-hmm. Feels in a way that we're almost sort of having to swim upstream a little bit in terms of mm-hmm. The pace and the energy of where systems within the world are moving. Mm-hmm. And we're coming in with a, with an invitation for a slower pace. What, what are your. Thoughts about that? Yeah. You know, though, as you started that, I remember there was some quote some years ago that I read that about how the, the fa, the. The evolution of technology is running so much faster than the evolution of the human, you know? And I don't know if it's about catching up. It's, you know, because really when you look at a eye, it's like, how can I use it to help me, not just to, to, to replicate me, but to help me to better do my writing? The work that I have, have to do. But you know, when it comes back to coaching I'm, I, I don't coach people on their business processes 'cause I think that's really more advising than coaching. And it's not of interest to me. But we're still dealing with humans that are all going through this experience of, I don't know what's gonna happen in the future. I don't know what's gonna happen to me. In my work. And and it's all very scary. And, and it's the, the human to human element that, you know, we we pull each other through these times and, and and still be creative, innovative and, and, and keep growing. In, in what we're doing. So it, it's difficult, you know, I'm Encourag is acting in the face of fear, so to say, well be with someone to take away their fear. No, you're not gonna take it away, but to acknowledge it and say, yeah, I get it's scary times. And so what do we do at this moment that's best for us? And that comes out through dialogue, whether it's even coaching, but, but. Open, safe dialogue that we work together to think through the collective that is far more innovative than, than the individual. And I think that's the best thing we can do for this time. It strikes me as you are describing that how coming back to safety and psychological safety, kind of coming into the foreground again there of how do we. Even if we're not coaching. Yeah. Because safety we can in, in these kinds of times. Vulnerability is high, isn't it? You know, higher than perhaps even. It would probably be so, so that sense of safety and what, what our presence is doing to inform that safety. Yeah. Is really. Yeah, I mean, even if, if you're, you know, working in a company and you're a leader and you're, you know, hurrying down the hallway and someone comes up and says, I, I really have an important question I need to ask you. Can you not just stop for a moment and turn around and look at the person and see them just for a moment? You know, is it really, really that that urgent, that you can't give them just a minute even enough to say, wow, I can see this is really important to you, you know, so let's book a time so we can really look at this instead of just rushing through the hallway and how critical just that moment. Is for people. You know, and that we forget that. So not to be run by the urgency but to remember that it just takes a moment for, to help someone feel seen and valued. Yeah. And that makes all the difference in the world. Yeah. That, that concept of being seen and valued seems to be coming up a lot. In some of the supervision groups that I, I I hold with people around how they're actually in some cases saying less and less and less, and they're really there to, to witness and, and see mm-hmm. The person for the person to feel seen and heard. And valued or acknowledged in some way, which goes back to this concept of presence again, perhaps. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I always say the less I say the more profound I am, you know it's interesting. Years ago when I took improv acting to be more authentic on the stage there was an exercise that one of the teachers would have us do where we would, you know, be in a big area and maybe. 20 people in the class and we had to wa silently walk around the room and every time I would pass you, I would really have to see you just for a moment, see you and then move on. But we had to see each person we pass. We couldn't just quickly, you know, and it, and you don't do it with a smile. You know, our tendency when we look at someone is to smile, you know? He said, you don't have to smile, just see them. Yeah. And how difficult that was to do that and to do it for an extended time. You know, okay, we walked around, but you gotta walk around again and see the same people again. And, you know, we would do it for like five minutes and that was, seemed like forever, but it indicated how little we really see people. Yeah. You know, and, and how, it's always been important, you know, it's like the human soul longs to be seen, longs to be seen. And again, you like you said, with these these times that where we're just like so busy and so engaged in what we're doing, that we see people less and less. I. Hmm, and, and isn't that, you're right. Sometimes that is the greatest value we give as coaches is in this moment, I see you. Yeah, I see you. And maybe they need full on coaching and maybe they just need that safe space to talk and you just use a lot of silence. Reflect a little bit, maybe ask a question here or there, but even that, isn't that a great gift? Hmm. So, yeah, as you're talking, I'm thinking about the, this idea of silence and just seeing someone mm-hmm. And not even actively smiling to engage in a, in a different way. Yeah. But literally just see them. And it reminds me of many times on coach trainings of exercises around holding silence and how. How very quickly the emotion can surface. And I, and I've witnessed beautifully sometimes some, yeah. Completely nonverbal exchanges between people without gesticulating either. Yeah. Right. Almost like an energy exchange where there is a complete shedding of, of something that's been witnessed and, and there's no verbal exchange at all. Yeah. You know, yeah, there's an exercise that I do. I'm not gonna say the whole thing, but at the end they have to look at each other and appreciate each other for 10 seconds. But the whole room has to be quiet before I even start counting to 10. You know, it's a little different doing it on Zoom, but in my research it said that we are comfortable holding eye contact for. Five. Five, around five seconds, a little bit longer f for women than men because they said most men their brains see is a confrontation in holding the eye contact. But to recognize them, that moment when you're fully uncomfortable in around five, six seconds. And just to remember, I, I'm here to appreciate you. To breathe, because that's what happens is many of them hold their breath. You know? I say, okay, time. And they're like, ah. You know, but to breathe through it, to hold it and, and just appreciate each other for 10 seconds, when we finally get to that state, you're absolutely right. How many people start crying. Yeah. You know, or they jump up and hug each other because to, to get beyond the threshold of comfort into that really. I appreciate you. I'm here for you. With silence. Yeah, with silence. There's some magic to that. Yeah. And I know, I know that we are not in the business of giving advice, obviously, but if you were to offer any thoughts for coaches who are now wanting to really cultivate their presence? Yeah. To really think about how can they. You know, if we are saying that the future of our work is around that deepening of presence that goes beyond the mechanical skill that we put that back here. Mm-hmm. You know how, how can we invite people to think about how they cultivate that presence? Yeah. Well, you know there's the simple exercises of mindfulness or, you know, I, I, you know, I live in, in the desert and I love just going out and being in the desert, and I must be very present, especially this time of year as we're moving into, towards summer, the rattlesnakes will wake up. So I must be present because I can get in trouble if I'm not, you know, and so it, it's it over the years and I've been, you know. Even since a young girl hiking around in the desert and because it helps me when I'm not feeling present to come back to presence. But I think the next phase is to go places where, you know it's gonna take a away your presence. Especially, you know, when I work around judgment, because we're all judgy people. We judge all the time as a matter of survival. I say go places where you know your, your judgment's gonna be triggered. You know, the airport, a busy grocery store and or a meal with your family, you know, and, and recognize where in your body you feel it. Because judgment is an emotion. It's not an opinion. It's the emotion of judgment that then triggers the opinion and, and can you catch yourself judging? And, and, and the sooner you can catch it, then you can breathe into it and release it and come back to what do you want? To feel at this moment? Is it curiosity? Is is it compassion? Is it just patience? Whatever that is, but to then take in the emotion that will override the emotion of judgment. So to, to really work at not just going, sitting somewhere where you can be mindful, but to go places where it's tough. Yeah, yeah. And work on coming back to presence in those moments that I think that's the best practice. I love that idea. I remember years ago when meditation was sort of the, you know, the big thing when it first came into the uk. Yeah. They would always have this thing of, you can get good enough to me meditate on the top of a bus when it's busy, right? Where you don't need that. A little quiet zen room with your cushion and your incense that you could actually meditate. Quite serene, on the top of a crazy bus with loads of people around. So I love that. It's that. It's a great image too, that kind of concept, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm mindful of our, of our time, and I'm just wondering what else would be useful for us in terms of what you would like to share? Mm-hmm. With anyone listening either around mastery in coaching or what is being called for from us, what is our call to action? Almost as coaches in the world at the moment? Mm-hmm. I think a lot of what we've talked about, but you know, one of the things we talked about before we started this, the recording was my surprise about finding out that breakthrough coaching is like one of the top. Ebook sellers in Europe, and it's not in the us but coach the person, not the problem is off the charts here and you know, it's translating eight languages and all that. But I think the titles, you know, that, you know the coach, the person is more about the, the skills. Although my second edition coming out next year, I flipped it and putting presents first and then the. Skills, but the title, you know, how do I really coach the person Just making that transition. But I'm thrilled of how well it's doing in Europe with the title of breakthrough that I'm really looking at. What does it take that mastery to, to really breakthrough the frames of my, my clients thinking just through. Being there with them and, and reflecting and asking questions that lead them in their thinking to, to expand, to go beyond and, and possibly totally change how they see a situation and themselves. So I think that what, coming back to what is the intention of coaching, you know, and even on the competencies, what's really the intention of the competencies? And I know you teach that. That it's not just the doing of, what is it you're really trying to do for the person with this that, that's so critical that coming back to remembering that I am a thinking partner. I'm not the expert. I'm not you know, I don't know more. You know, stuff, and I'm just here to help you think that we are equals in this conversation. I want you to feel that and it must be a felt sense because otherwise the brain's gonna see the coach is still the socially dominant person in, in the conversation. So again, coming back to that presence that I am here for you, that you feel comfortable for me, that we are in this together and I'm here to help you think, hmm. And to remember that as we go in, that's the greatest value that we give. Mm-hmm. When we're coaching and it's the distinction of coaching and it will help us survive ai. Yeah. You know that Well, I was also thinking about that, you know, to that point about human coaches versus AI coaches. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Is, you know, there's such a lot of separation in the world, isn't there at the moment? We think we're so connected because we've got, you know, you and I are in very different parts of the world and here we are, so, which is lovely. Mm-hmm. And the way our interaction is structured now starts rip out a lot of actual human connection. Yeah. And so, you know, I wonder what life will be like just interacting with a bot Yeah. As opposed to human being. So there, I think it's coming back to this place of being with and seeing and acknowledging again that humans need that human to. Feelings, the little yearns for it, you know, and it's not you know, maybe I can have a companion in a bot that I can talk to. I mean, I have my cat, you know, and she's a pretty good companion most of the time. You, but. And there is something about human connection that is, is when we don't have that, the impact on our mental health Yeah. As well as our capabilities of what we can accomplish. There's so much research that shows that. Yeah. And, and that do, do we even fully understand it? I don't think so, but just to know that we do need that and so to say I don't, I don't need anybody, mm. Really? Or is that just your fear talking that I have nobody. Yeah. So, and you know, all this technology has separated us so much that we've gotten used to talking to people. This way. Yeah. You know, and, and I, I was so happy when I could go back to traveling so I could get back out in the world and see my coach friends again, because I get very isolated here in my own home. Do I have some friends? Yes. But it's so easy just to sit in front of the computer and do work. Absolutely. So yeah. So to take myself out. Yeah, that's really important. Yeah. And I'll go, even go do some things that are like, eh, it's okay, but I'm with people and I think we should never give that up. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, on that note, I couldn't agree more. We should never give that up. And however, for today, I'm grateful for Zoom because it did allow us to talk. Mm-hmm. And I, and I thank you once again for your time. Marsha, and I'm really looking forward to the next edition of Coach the Person topic then. Thank you, And all of the other great work that you are doing. Thank you so much. Oh, thank you. It's really been an, a great conversation. I've enjoyed being with you too. Thank you. You have been listening to Coaching in Conversation by Tracy Sinclair, a podcast aimed at exploring how coaching is a vehicle for human development in today's and tomorrow's world. You can learn more about coach training and development@tracysinclair.com and follow us on social media. If you enjoyed this podcast, please leave a rating and review and also share it with your networks to help us expand our reach. Thank you for listening and see you next time.