Connection, Stillness and Non-Duality with Benita Stafford-Smith

Tracy Sinclair welcomes listeners to Coaching in Conversation and is joined by Benita Stafford-Smith, an ICF Master Certified Coach and coaching supervisor based in Oman, for a discussion on coaching’s deeper, existential dimensions. Prompted by uncertainty and fear around AI, they explore coaching as an invitation to define what it means to be human and to shift from productivity-focused “doing” toward “being,” connection, and presence. 

Benita is an executive Coach who has envisioned and established a profitable coaching unit, within the leading people’s consultancy firm in Oman. With services ranging from business development, client relationship management, to building a team of ICF Credentialed associate coaches, Benitas is able to deliver culture sensitive, high-quality services to paramount organizations in the GCC region.

In addition to executive coaching, she offers systemic team coaching, coaching skills for managers and leaders (a certified CoachU program), culture transformation, and development of coaching cultures. She also delivers coaching supervision to associate coaches to ensure quality of delivery.  

In 2023, Benita nominated OQ (a coaching client) for the International Coaching Federation's Impact Awards for their sustainable coaching culture. She is co-author of Creative Reflective Practice and the upcoming The AI and Digital Coaches' Handbook.

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My name is Tracey Sinclair. Welcome to Coaching in Conversation This conversation is a chance to discuss and explore not just how we can keep developing and maturing as coach practitioners, but also to consider how coaching is evolving, and its future potential and place as a powerful vehicle for human development in today's and tomorrow's world. I'll be sharing some of my own thoughts on these topics, and we will also hear from some great guests from around the world who bring their unique experience and perspectives. Hi, everyone. It's Tracy Sinclair here with another episode of Coaching in Conversation. This time I am with Benita Stafford-Smith, who is a master certified coach with the ICF and is also a coaching supervisor, a certified systemic team coach and a cult- a certified culture coach. Benita is a highly experienced coach. She has over 6,000 hours with hundreds of clients spread all over the world, and she has been working individually and with teams in a supervision capacity since 2016. She currently works with an HR consulting practice. She's based in Oman and has been a leading figure in the ICF chapter in, in Oman. And she works with teams of coaches that are helping organizations to really inform culture through coaching. She's also a prolific writer, having written two books and co-authored more, and has written lots and lots of different articles and blogs. And she was also the nominating coach in 2023 for an organization called OQ, who were nominated and received the award for the International Coaching Federation Global Impact Award for organizations. However, apart from this wonderful history of credentials and experience, my conversation with Benita is about something slightly different. And we are talking today about a shared interest which is in some of the deeper, broader, wider aspects of coaching. Some of the things that speak more about someone's spirit, if you like rather than just the things that they want to achieve. So very much focusing on being versus doing. And really maybe how coaching can evolve to meet some of the deeper, perhaps even more existential questions that clients and maybe indeed ourselves are asking in today's very complex world. I really hope that you enjoy this conversation. I really enjoyed having it, and this conversation is called Connection, Stillness and Non-Duality. Enjoy. Benita, thank you so much for having a conversation with me again. I know we've already recorded a podcast previously, which I am referring people to very regularly because there are some wonderful points that you're making in there about mastery and coaching. I also know that you and I have been enjoying some conversations around something that we're noticing around the deeper questions that people are sitting with, and in some cases grappling with, just given the complexities of our world just now. So I'd love to have that conversation with you and see where that takes us. So what- what's coming up for you as we position that? I think what- the first thing that comes up for me is every time I think about this, I think about what's driving it what- why now? Yes, and th- there's a lot of things driving it, but in particular, I think AI is driving it, because it's the non-human part of our existence, and- and people are unsure, and they don't know, and they're afraid, and as- as I think would be natural to fear what you don't know. But I- as I think about it, I think it's also the invitation for us to define what does it mean to be human. It's a much bigger question. And yeah, and it- it's a fascinating question because the- everyone will have a different definition of that. But I think of that, what is it, what does it mean to be human? I think of it as like this ecosystem that we all live in, and it's not it's- it's not relevant just to this physical world that we live in. Our- we're living here now, so this is really important what we do here, but it's so much bigger what makes us human. And it's not a mechanical definition. Which makes it interesting to chat about. And so I think AI is, yes, it's driving a lot of fear, but I think it's also doing us a big favor by driving us to that next question, what does it mean to be human? Yeah. Yeah. And who defines it? Who defines it for us? And what part do we have in that definition? Those are all, to me, obviously, fas- I don't have an answer. I have thoughts, but I'm fascinated by this question, yeah. Yeah, so what do you think? What's, what's- I- What do you think about that? I agree that it's a deeply fascinating question, and it's one I've been sitting with as well, so I have my thoughts around it. And one of the things that really strikes me about what you were describing there around, AI isn't something to be afraid of, it's an invitation to think of what does it mean to be human. The way I've been thinking of it is that- If AI or anything else in the world, if AI is developing and evolving, there's a sense of the threat of it would be if we're also not developing and evolving. So for me, the opportunity and the, perhaps the call to action almost for us as humans- Yes … is to be more conscious about how we're evolving, and to seek that evolution in ways that feel useful and meaningful. So it's, I don't know whether it's human being 2.0 or 3.0 or whatever it might be. Whatever, yeah. But there is an upgrade. There's an upgrade. Yeah. And AI has these upgrades that are being released, and I think there's an opportunity for a human upgrade here. And again- Yeah … I don't know exactly what that upgrade is, and it may be different for each of us. But I do think it's… I think there is an opportunity, and also a need. I think there's a real need for us to do that. Yeah. And yeah, it's… There's so many questions around this that this is why I find it fascinating. So I was at a presentation this morning that our company put forward, training people how… training the average worker how to use AI, and there was a fascinating question about that, is because we, we did a quick search on ourselves, and it was amazing how much information came back. And, and how do we govern that? I think governance is always the big question around AI. It's, As human beings, w- do we have any control over it and any governance? I don't know if we do or not. I don't know if it's too late. Lots of people say, "Forget it, it's done. We're doomed." And many people say no, we're fine." And then there's in between that says,"Come on, here's the invitation," as you said, to human upgrade. So it's letting AI do the stuff that AI does well at this point. It's not what we as humans do well, especially if you think of coaches and supervisors. What we do really well is- … is that connection. We have… Everything we do is relational, and I don't think that's just true for coaches, by the way. I think that's true for most human beings. Everything we do is relational. Yeah. And there's different kinds of relations, of course different ways of being relational, but… And I think I just said the magic word. It's moving from doing to being. And, yes, I've heard this 1,000 times, but I'd like to sh- if it's okay with you, I would like to share a little story. Please. That really was powerful, a powerful experience for me. Because I think what we're talking about is something greater than the mind quote. And so I'll first ex- And some people call it spirit, some people call it the universe, some people call it God, some people call it Allah. It has 1,000 different names depending on what your culture is, and they're all beautiful, by the way. I don't care what you call it, 'cause it's essentially always the same thing. Yeah. And so I just read this definition of what makes a spiritua- what… how do you define a spiritual experience? How do you know you're having a spiritual experience? And the four things that came back was there's a connection, it's non-dual, there's an expansion, it's non-local, and it's timeless. So I wanted to share this story about I live in the Middle East. Yeah, there's lots of turmoil going on here, but I don't wanna talk about that at the moment. And one of the common things to do on a day off is to go down to the beach, to go to the sea, and sit on the beach. So one day I diligently, with being a good, a good coach, I took my journal, I took the book I was reading, and a pen and a bottle of water, and I took it all down to the beach with me, and I was gonna focus, right? On reflection. And I'm not saying reflection isn't important. Reflection is important, but this is more than reflection. So there was a lot of people on the benches at the beach, so I walked a little further away where there were some rocks, and I picked a really nice rock to, to sit on. And I started reading my book, and I started journaling, and I looked up and I noticed that there was a lone seagull standing right there between me and the sea. And I thought that's really unusual," because they're usually in flocks. And I look to my right and there was flocks of seagulls that way, like hundreds of them. And I looked the other way, and there was a big flock, but this one seagull stayed with me, and it's hard to say what time went by, but it was like we went into a different world where there was no time, there was no space, there was no separateness. It was… It, there was sand and rocks and sun and sea and seagull and all those things, but we were all just one. But there, there just was no s- it was just absolutely fascinating, and I felt like this, a real heart connection to this seagull as the seagull was opening up to me as I was opening up to the seagull, as the sea was, right? And so there's this huge awareness going on, and I don't know how long it lasted. Seemed to me like it was a really long time, but I didn't have any sense of the time. So I just wanted to share that story. For me, that's what I call a spiritual experience. Yeah. It was all those things, and the connection. I thought, it was a seagull, right? Like really, beneath, it was a seagull. But the connection was amazing with all that was. And so I think that, we're… We can do that when we slow down, when we stop doing. And I don't want to be like AI and I can do more and more. It's about our humanness. It's about slowing down and being, instead of being more machine-like and doing more and more. Let AI do that. I feel good with that. Yeah. And cultivate that, that human, more than human, I'm gonna say. It's human, but it's that expansiveness that we step into that includes everyone. So I wanted to share that story as a way to… That this is how I think about it. Yeah. Yeah. And I say- Thank you so much… yeah, I say think, but I don't mean think. This is how I experience it. It's not- Yeah … it's like it isn't with my head Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. And thank you for sharing that experience. It deeply resonates with me, and I have my own bird story that I could tell you. Yes. But we'll… I don't wanna take up all the air space with that, but I've had a very similar experience. I don't know if birds are carriers of some of these things but but yeah, I- I'd love to hear it I have … No, if you'd like to share it. I I will. I will tell the story then. It was I go for a very early morning walk. Anyone who knows me knows I'm a bit of a sunrise chaser. So I'm always trying to be up at a particular place, an aerodrome where I live. And and I walk at pre-dawn and see the dawn, and then I'll come home. And at this space where I go, a very big space, it's a big aerodrome, and there's a big fence that goes around, and there are a lot of crows. There's lots of different kinds of birds. There are a lot of crows at the aerodrome, and they'll often squawk around. Most of the time they'll fly away. Sometimes they get used to you coming closer, but not very close, and then they'll disappear. And a few weeks ago, and I always find that this aerodrome experience and going for my walk is always very interesting for me because it is a place where I go out of my mind, and I just really Connect with the trees and the clouds and the breeze and whatever it is that I'm there to experience. But a crow was on the fence a little bit ahead of me. And I was getting closer and closer to the crow thinking he'll fly off in a minute, he'll fly off in a minute, and and he didn't. Assuming it was a he. That, that might be an assumption, I don't know. And I found myself literally l- half a meter away from this crow to the point where I could actually lean forward and look into its eyes, and it just stood there, or, perched, staring at me. Yeah. Nice. And I was there for ages- Wow … just staring with this crow in eye contact. And then I carried on walking, and I was- found myself looking back and it, and then it disappeared and I thought,"Oh, it's gone." And it flew around and then stopped a bit further ahead on the fence, and we did the same thing again. And then on the third time, he flew down and stopped on the tarmac in front of me and looked at me o- on the floor, and was just staring at me, and then he went. And I guess the experience I had there was of a total sense of stillness But also an expansion, and it felt, to me, that is how I would describe presence- Yeah and being. I was just being there. And I guess if I put that back into a coaching context, one of the things I often find myself saying to coaches now is, "It's your presence that needs to be there, not your doing, your being." So yeah, there's, that's my bird story. That's a beautiful story, Tracy. And that's that oneness. There's just no separation, right? That's, it's just all there is in that moment. And beautiful. Crows are quite interesting birds. They are. If you research them, they're quite a fascinating member of the bird family. Yeah. So what a beautiful gift you received. Nice. Indeed, and you from your seagull. Yeah. No, really, it felt like that. It absolutely felt like a gift. Yeah. So what does, what do you think this means? You said you have some thoughts on this. What do you think this means for maybe coaches who might be listening, who often will listen to my podcast but anyone really around what this means for us now? Yeah. Thanks, Tracy, because I think I'll address both of those. I think for coaches, as coaches you'll often experience that in a coaching session. W- it, you'll go into that, go into it. There's a space there, and there's nothing else but you and that client, and there's that total connection, human to human. And what's happening in that moment is so important that nothing else exists, and I'm not sure if those… It- it's hard to put words to it, because it's an experience and it doesn't, doesn't have language. But I think many coaches will have experienced that oneness- … with a client. And that is, there's no separation again. It's just that oneness, and then time stands still. So coaches will often, I believe, experience that. And all of us, and all of us human beings on this planet, I don't care what country you live in, or what the culture is, or what the g- geopolitical environment is, we all connect with nature. Always. Some more consciously than others, some are more aware, but everybody, in my opinion, just sitting still and being in nature is the greatest gift that we can give to humanity. Because we show up differently after we've had that experience. And we impact the people around us. So it sounds, it's so simple. It's stillness, it's silence. It's not, "Ooh, I got that report out 30 minutes early.""I made the Q2 numbers already." Oh, you froze. You're back now Oh. Oh, are you? Yeah. I'm here, yeah. It, I think this also is an ancient tradition I don't think this is something new. I think we're- No … we're becalling, we're being called to it in a new way, but I think it's an ancient tradition. Yeah. If you think about people in the past sitting around the fire outside at night and just telling stories and not- Being doing anything, just sharing their humanness, that's, that was the tradition in… Might not have been a fire, but that's been the tradition in many cultures, many countries, that we've forgotten about. Yeah. Yeah. And now how do we bring that forward again, but not… Perhaps we can't make fires and sit by the sea, but so how do we do that now? I think that's the invitation that's so exciting, is how do we get back to that stillness and that connection? Yeah. It's so fascinating because just yesterday I was talking with a group of coaches and we would, we were exploring this concept of presence and I was using this term of, which they, one of them picked up on of this idea of sitting with your client. Yeah. Yes. And, sitting around the campfire, just being with. And when I heard you just talking about these things, your hands are gesturing towards the body a lot. Yeah. And I- Yeah … guess the core. And one of the things that is really striking me is that some forms of coaching can be very, what I call neck up. Yes. Very prefrontal cortex. Very focused- Yes … on productivity, goals, achievement, progress, all of those things. And I'm not saying that those things aren't important, but we seem to have developed an obsession with them- yes… to the exclusion of other elements. And one of the things I've been encouraging colleagues and coaches and anyone that I'm connected with is to really, for us to really nurture the mind-body connection- Yes so that we're coaching from here, from the body, and not from here. Yeah. Because if we coach only from here it's going to have a limitation and it's and there's… That expansiveness is lost or is not accessed. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's embodiment. Again, I think that's one of the if you read the about ancient traditions and cultures, they always talk about if you're sick, your body's telling you something. Yeah. If you're sick, your body's telling you. And today we don't think of that."Oh, I'm sick, I go to the doctor, I get a pill, and I get better." Or have surgery that cuts something out and we don't stop and- … we don't stop and process what's going on. Yeah. Bodies have huge wisdom. Not just the wisdom of me, but the wisdom of me and of you and all our ancestors, and it's all there. It's… But we- we've lost the knack. I don't know if it's a knack or a skill or what it… I don't know what to call… We've lost that. We don't listen to our bodies anymore. No. I guess we've- … become less, maybe less open to it. I always think of these things we don't find them, they come to us. Yeah. And but if we're not open to that… I was just, again, I was talking to a group of people, I think it was a, yeah, day before yesterday, around beliefs, and, do we go with the phrase of, "I'll believe it when I see it"? Yeah. Or is it, "I'll see it when I believe it"? And- Yes. Nice … so there's that. I think there's- Yeah … our mindset in m- modern times, I guess particularly in the West, but even in the East now as well- Absolutely. Everywhere … with modernization. Everyone. We're s- we've become so detached perhaps from some of these broader things. And one of the things I just wanted to pick up on was what you mentioned about nature. And access to nature is I was encouraging the group of people I was working with to think about what helps them build and nourish their mind-body connection. And I- Yeah … I think that for many people, nature is such a go-to opportunity. And I was always struck when I had the privilege last year of traveling to Japan, even in the big cities, even in Tokyo, for example, where no one's got very much space at all, they will still try to make their tiny Japanese garden even on a balcony or in a box or something, a flower box, to, to have that connection with some grass or some trickling water and a rock or whatever it might be. Yeah. So we don't have to live in the countryside necessarily for that, or by the ocean, but to have that connection. And I always find when I go to my walk, I go out of my head. I can drop down into my body. Yeah. Yeah and it's interesting because when I think of that, it's that c- it, the connection doesn't have to be with nature, because there's lots of people who are out in the nature and they don't even notice it. And so as you said, it's about what are we open to? What are we going to learn today, right? And wh- when I look at that tree, what is that tree? What could that tree possibly teach me? Yeah. Ask the question. And it's fascinating. It's an exploration, and it's throwing away what we know for sure, and finding out what we don't know. Yeah. Yeah. One of the things that I love, and so I live in this small country, I call it small, because I'm from Canada. It's a big country. So Oman seems like a small country. They still have the tradition of the families having picnics together. You go down to the beach and you have a picnic. And I notice that when I go back to Canada, there's nobody in the parks. They're empty. Yeah Yeah We j- you know, because now we have barbecues in our backyard. So we di- we've disconnected again And we're isolated Yeah. Yeah. It's just, and not intentionally, not consciously, but it, it's just, it's what's evolved and now we're being called to say we wanna structure our evolution differently." Yeah. Whatever that means for you, right? Or, yeah. I remember being at a conference it was an ICF conference actually a few years ago. You may even have been there as well at the time, Benita. I don't re- don't know. But there was a futurist there and he was talking about his concept of how things were going to be, is that there would be a migration away from villages and countryside into cities- Yeah and that we would be, he called it together alone So this high level of togetherness and connectivity like you are, you and I are now. You're in Oman and I'm here in, in L- in London Yeah … so we're deeply connected, and yet we're alone, 'cause we're both sitting in a room by ourselves. And so this, I think this idea of connection and disconnection is very key here, of what is it that as a human being, whether we're a coach or a parent or a leader or a teacher, anyone in a high relational role what is the reconnection that we can make? Yeah … because that, that feels very missing. Yeah. It's fascinating too. And, there's so many small things we can do that, th- that, But we need to consciously we need to. I'm getting this wrong words. There's so many small things we can do every day. So I'm gonna use an example about when I was living in Canada and we moved into a house in the French neighborhood. Oh, it was so much fun. It was fun living in the French neighborhood. I don't speak French, but it was really fun. And our n- our neighbor on one side of us, so we were, we bought an old house and we were stripping it down and restoring it to its original condition, and she came over one night at 10 o'clock, "Oh, you guys didn't eat supper yet," and she brought supper. And I thought, "Wow, how long has it been since I've seen that?" It's a small thing. It wasn't, she didn't revolutionize the world, but she certainly revolutionized our world. Absolutely. And then we treated others different. At that time, I was a huge gardener, so I ripped up… W- we're in a French system. The plots are narrow and long. So I had a long backyard. I ripped up all the grass, and I put pathways and flowers through the whole thing. And then the neighbors would come and say, "Can we come look at your garden?" I said, "Of course you can come anytime. I don't care if we're here or not here. Bring your friends, bring your neighbors. Come look at the garden." But people are attracted to that. They really wanted to see it. Yeah. Now, they a- they asked me permission, but we're attracted to those things. Yeah. And we can just close it and say, "It's not my business. It's my neighbors and I can't, I can't say anything." Or we can, "Oh, can I look at your garden?" What's wrong with that, right? It's just fascinating- … how we stop ourselves now. Yeah. And how we're being invited to open up. Yeah. And it just- Just open… it's interesting this Because we know in our coaching competencies, for example, that our mindset as a coach is to be open and curious, and I h- I feel that we're talking about that on a different level here. I think we can sometimes think of being open-minded as a almost a throwaway statement of, but what does that actually mean? And how, and so- But notice again, so but Tracy, notice the word we use. We use open-minded. Yeah. It's not about our mind. Yeah. And if we pay attention to our language, there's so many. There's just, it's just unbelievable how many clues there are. Yeah. And it's just stuff that we use ord- all the time. Yeah. We say open-minded. And I think That really- Yeah … speaks to what you were saying about this isn't new. Yeah. I was talking, again, I think it was the same group I was working with on Monday, and we were talking about perspective and different ways to support clients to evoke awareness through shifting perspectives, reframing, et cetera. And I was talking about the fact that this is not new because we know when we've got a challenge or a problem, we say to someone, "Sleep on it," so you get a different perspective through a bit of time passing, or take a step back. Yeah. Or imagine that it's sorted and it's six months from now, what would you be wanting to say? And we, we say these things, and yet we don't seem to… They just roll off unconsciously. Yeah. We don't actually seem to recognize that there is a deeper wisdom in those phrases, in those ways- Yeah … of articulating. Yeah. Yeah. It's really, and it's very interesting also, another thing that I find quite interesting, is that we used, we talk about ourselves as if we're computers. We talk about our brain as our memory. It's like it's a… Put it in your memory chip. Put it in your memory chip. No, it's my brain. It's a living organ there, right? It's not all of me, but it's a living organ, right? And but we, and we we don't talk well, being heart-centered is also, "Oh, your heart," it's almost a negative sometimes. And why? But like we all have hearts. That's another organ we have, right? That make up part of our, what I'm trying to think. Of our soma, which is everything. Yeah. It's our body. It's our- Yeah … feelings. It's our consciousness. It's our ancestors. It's our future. It's all… This is all right here. Yeah. I'm sitting in it. Yeah. And how aware am I of that? Of that. Yeah. I found doing some a- ancestral work to be really fascinating. Yeah, just fascinating from a perspective of it helped me to understand a lot more about my perspectives, I'll say. Yeah. And it helped me realize the blessings, like i- the… I think the… I heard someone say your ancestors go back four billion years or four million years or 10 million or whatever. All… Every one of those peoples, animals, insects brought each of us right here today. That is, pardon the language, but bloody amazing. And so when I'm sitting in that, all the… Everything that our ancestors have done and brought us to this moment, and so what is it that I want to, I don't wanna say I wanna bring it forward. What's what do I wanna call forth? I think it sounds funny, but that is more what it seems to me, is like we're calling it forth. It's already here. It already exists, and let's call it forth rather than… So it's emerging- Yeah… rather than, "Oh, I'm gonna pick box. I'm gonna take that one." Yeah. Or, "That's a science box. I'm gonna take that one." But it's here. There's two words coming up for me there then is wholeness and context. Yeah. And this idea of we're encouraged to think about our client's context or whoever it is that we're in relation with. And you're bringing some lovely examples there of context. Context is not just the organization they work in, the job that they do, what gender they are. Of course, it's all of those things, but- It is. Yeah … there's an ancestral context. There, there's- … there are so many multiple systems that are, we have layers of within us. And I found myself linking to that. I found myself thinking the other day and I'm smiling 'cause I know this might be a little bit on the fringes for some people listening but hopefully not, is we're encouraged to work with the whole person- Yes As a client in coaching at least. And of course presence and in any relational connection, working with the wholeness of that person or engaging with the wholeness of that person is important. And yet we do seem to limit ourselves, not just to the thinking elements of the person and avoid sometimes these more somatic ways of communicating But we know that so much more happens for us that is out of our consciousness than in our consciousness. And so if we're working with the whole person, and we're only working with consciousness, conscious thought, conscious feelings, we're also missing a huge amount of the whole person. What el- what else is there? And that's the bit I'm enormously fascinated in at the moment is working with- that transpersonal out- out of conscious, out of awareness piece. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's absolutely fascinating, Tracy. And the thing that brings to mind for me is that's our invitation. The more whole we are- Yeah … the more we can see the wholeness in others. Yeah. Yeah.' Cause if we have blocks and empties not… I don't mean empty as in… empties is not the right word. If we have blocks in places that we're not, that we're afraid to look at in us, we don't see our whole person. I'm not gonna see your whole person. No. No. I can't. I, it's just, it's not that I'm, I d- I predetermined that. It's just that- But it just is I'm not equal to yet. Yeah. And it's not good or bad, it just is. Yeah. And it's accepting sometimes those, I have limitations. That's something that makes me human. Yeah. But it- Absolutely. Absolutely… it, that makes me absolutely I have blocks. I have things I can't look at. I have shadows that are dancing around there that I'm not sure I wanna look at them yet. But the more I do that, then the more I can be connected to you. With someone else. It's- Yeah… it's just, when we talk about openness, that's what I think about. I have to open myself more so I can see you wholly, whole, and then W-H-O-L-L-Y, but also holy- Yeah As a sacred being. Yeah. It's not, and I'm, I don't wanna bring in religion but, s- I also… sacred means something we really respect. And what happens if we start seeing each other as a sacred being? Yeah. And sometimes that's really challenging in our world today. When- that, yeah… when we're talking about our coaching Yeah. But then when I go out into the geopolitics of the world, it might not be so easy to do. Yeah. But- But one thing just we do. Yeah. I… It's interesting you use the word respect because I… And that's probably a whole another podcast conversation. But, there's something that I've often found when I look at things like core competencies. Beyond the behavior or guidance they give us, I think if we look for it, embedded in them is a set of values around how we are with ourselves and each other. And respect is always one that comes up for me that there's something about being respectful of yourself and nourishing and nurturing yourself but also being respectful of that person that you're working with and of their systems, their context. Yeah… so there's so much in there, isn't there? And that piece that I wanted to just capture as well, Benita, that you were saying about, I think it's this idea of first look within, is if we aren't continuing to grow ourselves, and we won't be perfect because that's our lifelong pursuit on this earth, isn't it? But if we aren't growing as human beings, how can we support someone else in their growth? Because we can only go as far as we go. Yes … so I, back to this question of the human coach and humanity is work on ourselves before just focusing on what can I do for you as my client? What is it that I need to work on so that I'm a, a stronger instrument or a refined instrument of my work and not just applying a skill? Yeah. It's… And I think this is, what you're speaking of is also the evolution of coaching. And I, and one of the things I love, absolutely love about coaching, and I'll say supervision also, is that we're, we are c- are continuous learners. We don't… Most pe- most people I know, not everyone, who are coaches or supervisors are really curious about everything. And, "Oh, I need to find out…" And it's, which one am I gonna do? And then something, you become aware of something, it's oh, boom that's what I need to learn next. Yeah. But it's because I've become aware of it. It's been there the whole time, by the way. But what, that's our humanis- I'm aware of it now That's what I get to learn. That's my expansion. Yeah. And, it's that evolution and that awareness, which I don't think is as of yet covered in the core competencies. The core competencies are beautiful, but we don't talk about that. There's another layer to this. Yeah, it's another layer. And look where the competencies have come from where they started to now. Absolutely. So everything is, it's… Everything is beautiful and that it's evolving. Yeah. It's sim- simple as that. And even, I know it sounds horrible to say, but even when I see some of the things going on in the Middle East here as far as the regional conflict is concerned and I think of it, how we, how people get so obsessed with wasting their time on something they have no control over, but totally obsessed. I don't stop and look around at all this beautiful nature around. No, I gotta get on the social media and find out who said what to who, when, why, and what's, what are they gonna say next. I'm gonna guess what they're gonna say next. And we start spinning and spinning. Ugh. I agree. It's just stop it. That's where the word stop comes in for me. It's the stop and the stillness. I'm not saying it's wrong to follow social media. That's not what I'm saying. But we can… It can be a great distraction. In a way. We can waste lots of hours with it, right? Yeah. Especially the geopolitical situation in the world these days. Yeah. But, it's funny, interesting, when you look back in history, that stuff's always been around. It's not new to us. Again, it's ancient. Yeah. It's ancient. And it's classic classic drama triangle in a way. Yes. Absolutely. And so we love a drama, and so- Yes.… we can get so easily caught in it. Yeah. It's very seductive. Oh, yeah. So there is something about the stepping out of that and coming back to, that- Yeah … that greater sense of stillness. And it is coming back. Notice you said it's coming back. It's get… Yeah. It's yeah. And so it's fascinating how many distractions there are in the world that we can follow if we wish. And I'm, again, it's, they're not right or wrong. If you need to do that for a while, go ahead. I respect that. Yeah. That's what the respect is. I respect absolutely whatever it is you find it necessary to do right now. I respect it. Yeah. I don't maybe agree with it, I don't like it, but I respect it. Yeah. Simple Wow And when I can only do that when I respect myself exactly where I am Yeah. It starts with us. Yeah, if I have 1,000 questions about what I'm doing and why am I doing this, and why am I doing that, and I don't know this, and I don't know that. What's gonna happen with AI, and what's gonna happen with the world? Da. Ba da. And all of a sudden, I'm lost. But I respect it when it happens. I respect it and then I go just a minute. Where have I just gone? What just happened there? What did I just do?" And that's where it becomes important, as you said, to step back into the being. Yeah' Cause it's usually the doing- Yeah cycle that gets frantic- Yeah … for me, anyways. And I think that is the doing cycle is what makes us go to sleep, in a way. Yeah. Yes in terms of awareness. And it's- Yeah, in terms of awareness… only when we step back and we notice the being is part of waking up. I- is being more awake to our experience. Yeah, And it's- Benita I'm just so aware we have run out of time. We might have to do another episode of this or something. Maybe. Yeah But if… we'll see what comments we get about this one, but I guess we- Let me know. I'll be curious Yeah. Oh, I will … to hear. I will. Yeah. So I'm guessing we, we perhaps need to bring things to a pause for now, but I'm just mindful that we- Okay I just feel I could keep talking to you for another two hours at least about this. And hopefully we will. But is there anything you'd like to just share to bring this to a little pause for now? I would like to share deep gratitude for everything that is, everything. Just absolute gratitude. Yeah. Thank you, Benita. I hope we meet again soon. We will. Take care. Bye-bye. You're listening to Coaching in Conversation by Tracy Sinclair, a podcast aimed at exploring how coaching is a vehicle for human development in today's and tomorrow's world. You can learn more about coach training and development at tracysinclair.com and follow us on social media. If you enjoyed this podcast, please leave a rating and review, and also share it with your networks to help us expand our reach. Thank you for listening, and see you next time